The Financial Case for Firing VDN (JR Take Note!)

by Diz on Mar 2, 2009 12:06 PM CST

Here's the million dollar question: What is wrong with the Bulls?

No real leader?
Identity issues?
No true all-star?
Lack of intensity and consistency?

If you ask me, all of these problems are directly related to coaching. A real coach would find a way to create an identity, elevate leaders, hand Derrick Rose (our true all-star) the keys to the car, and foster an environment in which lack of intensity is not tolerated, thereby leading to...consistency!

True, we don't have a legit "Big Three" or a Kobe or LeBron upon whose back we can ride to the Finals, but we absolutely do have a playoff team. Especially in the East! Given the struggles and injury issues compromising so many teams in the East this year, there is no reason that this Bulls team shouldn't have been a 5 or 6 seed.

Ok. Most of us here agree on this much, so I won't go into why benching D Rose in the 4th is a bad idea. Here comes the financial component:

In a major market such as Chicago, a playoff appearance would net the Bulls significant additional income. The odds of making the playoffs and potentially even advancing beyond the first round (this year or next) are markedly better with a competent coach. As a rookie coach with no prior experience, VDN's contract is a small one.

So add it all up! Firing VDN gives Chicago a much better shot at the playoffs, and therefore a shot at significant additional income that will likely exceed that of VDN's contract buyout as well as the difference between VDN's salary and the new coaches salary (which would likely be more than VDN's because he'd hopefully have enough experience to demand more).

Additionally, playoff experience and better coaching will allow Derrick Rose to progress faster, and might even elevate his ceiling further. Given that these are his formative years, it is important to put him in a position to succeed, and not do anything to stunt his development. There is a financial benefit associated with this as well, as the better D Rose becomes, the better the Bulls will be going forward, which in turn equals more revenue for the franchise whether it's playoff appearances, jersey sales, etc. Would Cleveland be as profitable without LeBron? I think not. Same logic applies here.

What coach wouldn't love to get their hands on this team?

Derrick Rose
Ben Gordon (if he's back next year)
Loul Deng
Tyrus Thomas
Joakim Noah
John Salmons
Brad Miller
Kirk Hinrich
Tim Thomas

Pax did his job by cleaning up the roster and providing us with legitimate veterans. Now it's time to get rid of the one remaining team cancer: VDN.

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Comments

"No true all-star"

Does that mean they have a fake all-star?

by chlutz508 on Mar 2, 2009 12:33 PM CST reply actions

Brad Miller?

"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan

by bennythebull on Mar 3, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions

I agree.

He may get fired if Paxson sees it like this. Who knows…

by Lsd on Mar 2, 2009 12:36 PM CST reply actions

But Pax did say...

“They weren’t ready to play in the losses to Washingston and New Jersey”. “You can ask every player in that locker room, they weren’t ready”.

That sounds like, to me that he feels Vdn is losing the team. Like Skiles did last year.

by Lsd on Mar 2, 2009 12:51 PM CST up reply actions

We had all these same problems though under

Skiles and yet it took several years before he was canned.

Vinny hasn’t been all league coaching, but I think we got him for another year, give him another year.

Things he has done well:
1) Developing Rose. Rose has worked well since day 1 with this team and does seem to be adj better to defense and playing more in the offensive sets.

2) Finally started to see a return on Tyrus THomas. It took some moer time with inconsistent minutes and public call outs, but give Vinny a lot of credit for sticking wtih Tyrus and finally seeing some return….I know injuries helped, but I still argue given how _rew was traded, that the injury bug on Gooden was more a cover up for _rew than a real shut him down injury (As Drew’s coming up for a contract extension)….we’ll see too when a team signs him (I think NO would love to have him to backup Tyson and David West to close out the year with Cleveland in Joe Smith lovefest now).

3) What about Noah? Noah came into the year completely out of shape, didn’t care, didn’t prepare, and if this was Skiles would have been banished from the team. VDN stuck with him, tried to show him how important he was by playing Aaron (and showing how incredibly outmatched Gray is at this level)….and now look we’re getting a motivated Joakim who’s back to being a leader on the court he was in college and what we thought we had last year. Kudos to Vinny and the coaching.

4) A more consistent Ben Gordon. Vinny’s given he who appears to not be in our long term plans but who is underappreciated and really good, but Vinny tried the bench thing and saw BG was more suited for a starting role.

5) Allowing the team to dictate a leader on the court, rather than have him be a leader.

6) Standing up to the un-legend and finally sitting him on the pine…

I’d give Vinny a B- for the year. I mean the team is playing better (though those stupid Indy and even more perplexing the blowout Wizards loss was frustrating) Vinny’s doing a decent job….not great, but then again we’re a young and for much of the year mismatched roster. Now hopefully a few practices with the new guys’ll help….and I think we’ll start winning a bit more.

I wish we could give him an A, but come on folks, a lot of our losing woes come from playing the young bigs through mistakes, playing the young ROY PG through many mistakes, trying to find lineups that might work with a horribly ill-fitted and guard heavy roster, and having 1 big come in out of shape, 1 big being a nice piece as a compliment to a team with a real inside scoring presence, but being a horrible fit on a team like the Bulls without it (Drew Gooden), 1 big not understanding how to play the game early in the year (Tyrus) and failing miserably for teh first month and a half…..

He hasn’t had a great roster to deal with, and the improvements from the young bigs have been outstanding……and I think we’re going to see more from D. Rose too on the defensive end, you can see Rose is playing more of a structured game of late, it’s hurt his individual brilliance, and well hurt the team, but long term, that’s the ticket to his greatness….

by majoyenrac on Mar 2, 2009 12:42 PM CST reply actions

You're right, the Bulls are playing somewhat better than last year.

But we also have this guy named Derrick Rose who wasn’t here last year.

by Diz on Mar 2, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions

Agreed

And I really wasn’t comparing to last year in my post. I was showing what he’s done to improve.

D. Rose has been HUGE, but again consider where we’d be if Tyrus and Noah continued to play like they did early this year…..

Lu-yawn’s had a really bad year even for him, that is now getting worse with injury concerns.

If we continue to play like shit with Salmons in Lu-yawn’s wake and suck our way out of hte playoffs, I’ll change my tune….but a B- ain’t shining colors, and it’s much better than Jimmy Boylan’s F or Skiles’s D- last year for us especially considering the completely mismatched roster that was more an issue this year due to the addition of another great guard D. Rose.

by majoyenrac on Mar 2, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions

And Thomas and Noah are a year older.

And actually playing big minutes.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Mar 2, 2009 2:10 PM CST up reply actions

Which

They would not have done much after their early/horrid starts this year on many a team…..especially a Skiles team.

Noah and Tyrus would have been out the door for garbage just to get rid of them and we would have seen them blossom elsewhere.

by majoyenrac on Mar 2, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions

You talking a little crazy. You give him a B?

Derrick Rose is the reason for more winning this year. Noah is better than Gray, has always done the little things, and he was tired of losing, and Gordon has always been a scorer. Injuries played a big part. So who else was Vinny going to play, but our best players out of a limited amount?

by Lsd on Mar 2, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions

B-

Yes. He is actually playing our best players (Well maybe as time proves sans Salmons in lieu of Deng)….that’s a huge improvement.

Noah is better than Gray but wasn’t playing better than Gray early this year and was so ill prepared and not taking anything seriously that we should be thankful we have a rookie coach.

Tyrus was playing more of his crazy one on one style than ever because he worked on his shot and added something to his game….well he didn’t know how to use it.

This team might have added Rose (our best guard) but it also had a huge distraction with Hughes and a ton of guards (and really while Drew is a PF, he plays more like a good rebounding guard on offense).

I see the team playing together more often than not, guys seem to have a little bit of fun here and there on the court (something that never happened).

Folks tend to simply forget last year….which is nice to do, we overperformed by winning 33 games, given the crap we played on the court….and the roster became terribly imbalanced after that trade (which would have been fine had we actually made a trade that many presumed last summer).

I think we’ll be ok.

by majoyenrac on Mar 2, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions

Overperformed by winning 33 games?

You mean with the same roster (for most of the season) that won 49 the year before? You’re joking, right?

by Diz on Mar 2, 2009 1:34 PM CST up reply actions

Exactly, everytime we have a healthy roster, Vinny horribly mismanages it.

Where would tyrus and noah have been if Gooden hadn’t gotten injured? The end of the bench is my guess.

Also, Deng, talk about completely misused. True he’s having a bit of a rough year, but it would help if our “coach” would realize that he’s best as a slasher and start running plays for him that capitalize on his (numerous) strengths as opposed to his weaknesses.

by Diz on Mar 2, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions

Deng is a pro

And is paid like a star, not superstar, but star, he needs to learn and try to both be the leader his captaincy would indicate, and try to be aggressive to play alongside D. Rose….he’s done neither.

It’s not on the coach to change his best 2 players games (Rose and Gordon) to suit Deng, who at best would only improve a point or two anyway….Deng needs to step up. Guys around the league would love to play next to a guy as unselfish and emergingly awesome as Rose….Deng needs to learn how to play alongside an emerging star, not the other way around.

I think the coach is trying to get Luol to slash a bit more and not be a spot up shooter (which Deng was taking more from a lack of aggressiveness) and so far it’s been a bit more hit or miss….it’s been surprising to see Deng be so inconsistent this year….I think he’ll be fine, and Vinny has been trying to play him through it all and not call him out for performing worse than ever.

As for Noah and Tyrus, sure Drew got hurt, but that doesn’t explain how both of them started playing (Drew was only one guy) nor does it explain how Drew managed to find himself traded, despite having an injury that caused him to have to sit for 10 games straight or whatever it was….again I think that injury was more the Bulls covering for Gooden’s future contract, since Drew did everything they asked of him, and the Bulls didn’t want to bench Drew in favor of the emerging T2 and Noah in case those 2 struggled….

by majoyenrac on Mar 2, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions

I have to say that this is the best argument I've heard yet in terms of the positives of VDN

I think he needs to go personally, but I will give him this: He’s given the young guys a real chance to play. He did start the season with Thabo, a guy who was banished under Skiles. There has been a marked improvement in Tyrus and Noah and I have always been willing to give the guy a tiny (and I mean tiny) bit of credit for Rose’s growth as a player. But he just isn’t a good coach and it’s obvious with his sub patterns. But I can’t deny that unlike Skiles (who I despised) he gave the kids an honest chance to play in this league and didn’t play favorites. Though his recent stint of benching the kids is ridiculous.

by Dils on Mar 2, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions

Agree

That to date his sub patterns have been shitty, but he has done a bit more good than bad, and is learning. We’ll see what the final stretch run proves and then I’ll give more a final grade.

He’s been at a C to a B- all year in my book…..frustrating to have him on a team as rich as the Bulls, but so far he’s done about as well as I would have anticipated….and there might be long term returns for what he’s done that we never would have seen with Boylan back or even Skiles, in that our young guys are getting time and finding an on court chemistry.

by majoyenrac on Mar 2, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions

Stop bashing Skiles

He is a great coach. Look what he is doing in Milwaulke with that roster of garbage.

The problem Skiles had here was …. by Nov last season he went to John Paxson and said your core is a bunch of mentally weak players( Deng Tyrus Noah Thabo). Oh, and by the way the Ben Wallace guy you signed is declining rapidly. Pax told him to try to fix it but Skiles had enough of Pax’s weak players. The fact he got Pax’s core to 49 wins is an amazing coaching job I think he finished like 4th or 5th in coach of year voting that year. Yesterday Van Gundy or Marc Jackson said he should be Coach of year this year… the other one said yes but not if your under 500.

by Jscho316 on Mar 2, 2009 1:49 PM CST up reply actions

49 wins? And How many of those wins were handing the ball to Ben Gordon in the 4th

and letting him score double digits and win games? I think Skiles is an excellent X and O’s coach but just like mediocre players, how many teams has he coached in in so few years. He’s like the Drew Gooden of coaching. Skiles didnt get fired for his X’s and O’s, he got fired because there wasn’t any growth in the players that Pax drafted with high picks. When guys like Chandler, JR Smith, and even Tim Freakin Thomas go to other teams and flourish because Skiles wouldn’t or couldn’t coach them, that’s a problem. No one ever brings it up but did Skiles have issue with LaMarcus Aldridge too? Thinking he was too soft and spooking him out in the pre draft interview? Skiles is coaching Milwaukee for a reason. He’a an A to B coach. Nothing more.

by Dils on Mar 2, 2009 1:58 PM CST up reply actions

I agree on A to B coach

but my argument still stems from the fact he got the best out of a bad core. I dont like anyone from the core to be here and playing well longterm. ( Maybe Noah) I also dont care that Skiles didn’t bother playing Thabo or Tyrus when the Bulls thought they were competing in the east 07 and until Skiles left.

But when discussing Vinny this year the excuse Pax gave for hiring Vinny was he was going to rebuild the spirits of the players who were mentally weak last year.( Led by bad locker room influence of Ben Wallace and AGriff) I forgot what happened first ( in late may early june Vinny, Lottery, Draft?) but hiring an inexperienced coach to bring along a star was a disaster. Every time Vinny leaves Derrick out of games ( i know its a crutch arguement) he’s flunking (F not B-) because all that matters this year is giving Derrick as many minutes, oppurtunities, lessons on the court as possible.

by Jscho316 on Mar 2, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions

Vinny

is doing a fine job bringing Derrick around. True a few games (Nets a bit, and Miami—really shocking) he sat Derrick in the end of the game, but overall Derrick’s getting over 36 minutes as a rookie, and Ben Gordon (our second best guard who might still really be our best guard now but not later) is playing almost 3 minutes more per game than he ever did in the past.

Perhaps there was more to the odd Thabo in the 4th thing right before the trade deadline than was spoken, as that was really just an odd play…..

I think Vinny’s trying to get Derrick to see some defensive tactics from Kirk, for as Kirk is far inferior to Derrick on O, Derrick can learn some tricks by watching Kirk’s d tactics…..

Who knows, but either way Derrick is hardly not getting a chance, a few bad rotations maybe, but he’s playing a ton of time right from the get go.

by majoyenrac on Mar 2, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions

Skiles

Is a good coach, but his tactics wear out teams…..and he’ll do the same in Milwaukee. And Milwaukee isn’t at all the same roster it’s been in recent memory….still he’s doing agreat job getting them to play hard this year.

ANd when was Thabo ever core?

Why is VDN getting more out of Noah and Tyrus than Skiles ever would have?

Vinny’s played guys through their faults and hasn’t gone on the public criticisms like Scott did.

I wonder where we’d be with Scott still here? I think worse than we are now. We’re more misfitted than ever early this year until this trade…

I was a big Skiles supporter, but I think he’s as much to blame for the deflated play as Wallace was of late. He did a lot of mini quick fix solutions, forced guys to play hard and forced us to get used to watching hard workers (Noc, Kirk, Malik Allen’s, Duhons, etc etc etc) rhater than watch the more talented guys blossom….and that is hurting us, helping Pax make some iffy decisions and hurting us by not having a direction at all of what to do wtih the old core.

by majoyenrac on Mar 2, 2009 2:15 PM CST up reply actions

would you agree

if Skiles was coach the bulls wouldn’t be the horrendous defensive team they are this season.

I think if Skiles was still here they would have a marginally better record but again I don’t care if the Bulls finish 7 8 9 or 10 in the east. I think Derrick would be so much better under a coach that knows basketball X and Os.

by Jscho316 on Mar 2, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions

Exactly

Rose would be tough as hell on defense under Skiles and with that D to go with his quickness to get to the rim and create…we would have a better record.

by Lsd on Mar 2, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions

Yeah

If Rose played…..

I don’t think we’d be that much better though long term with Rose, Tyrus, Noah development had Skiles stayed….though I do think Gooden, Luol and other veterans would have owned up to play more D.

by majoyenrac on Mar 2, 2009 3:18 PM CST up reply actions

Vinny,

is that you. You give yourself a B+?

by PricanStar on Mar 2, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions

Hahahahaha

by Lsd on Mar 2, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions

Good analysis

It’s too easy to point to Vinny. He’s definitely not great, but he’s not terrible. Kinda like a lot of the players on the team. I’ll take it for now from a rookie coach and a mismatched team.

If Skiles was still here, Tyrus would have been traded, and Noc would be our starting PF. It’s what I hate most about former “veteran”, hustle players now coaching, they play the veteran, hustle players way too much over the budding talent players. Gotta be a weird psych complex there somewhere. Vinny is not innocent of this trait, but he’s way better than Skiles, and he seems to be getting better.

B- midterm grade.

by Bill Cartwright's Elbow on Mar 2, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions

I'll take it for now too

But maybe not next year if the mistakes keep happening

by majoyenrac on Mar 2, 2009 3:18 PM CST up reply actions

Foot in my mouth

After Vinny spoke against Paxson then we saw the team lay an egg, I think he dropped a whole grade…..C-….

I can’t believe that we could let Boris freaking Diaw look like the Kobe Bryant of the Bobcats….

by majoyenrac on Mar 4, 2009 7:26 AM CST up reply actions

Vinny

is a placeholder until the Bulls are finished paying off Skiles. No way he’s being replaced this year, even if we lose the rest of the games by an average of 20 pts. If we make the playoffs (39-43 gets it done for the lucky 8th seed), I suspect he’ll be back next year, as well. When the big 2010 free market hits, we’ll sign a star and a front line coach.

For the record, we now have a “big” lineup (Rose, any two of Salmons/Tyrus/Ben/Ding, Miller & Noah) to use instead of going small. I like Miller and Noah in a high-low set-up. No more being overpowered in the paint!

by Cannoli on Mar 2, 2009 1:32 PM CST reply actions

if he gets that far

The biggest question going into the off season for the Bulls is not how are they going to build on a 1st round playoff exit or non playoff year…. but what role Pax is going to play in the front office. If he steps aside – consultant to the owner… then either a new GM or Gar is taking over. If its a new GM vinny is gone. If Gar takes over and they really evaluate how Vinny is bringing Derrick along…. then Vinny is gone.

by Jscho316 on Mar 2, 2009 1:52 PM CST up reply actions

Can you imagine how insufferable Vinny will be

if he makes the playoffs?

It will be like Larry Hughes getting a huge contract—completely over-inflated sense of worth to the Bulls.

"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris

by bullhockey on Mar 2, 2009 4:41 PM CST reply actions

Sam Smith is already on board

saying the Bulls are technically better than last year.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 4, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions

And dog poop smells better than pig manure.

Maybe we can (but probably not)?

by Granny Waiters on Mar 4, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions

Well when we win

We are better than last year, but we are so freaking insanely inconsistent….look really good in wins and at home especially against really good teams, but in the same breadth can look like the worst team in league history against the crap…

by majoyenrac on Mar 4, 2009 4:35 PM CST up reply actions