Comments on the Bulls Forwards
I'm going to make some comments about each fo the four primary forwards, but I thought I'd start by putting the postion in context. SF this season has been played by Deng (49%), Sefolosha (18%), Hughes (17%), Nocioni (10%), and Gordon (3%). Deng playing less than 50% of the minutes at SF never bodes well. This means that 1/5th of the time Vinny has been playing a 3 guard lineup. Even with Deng's injury that's way too much rebounding to give up.
The power forward position has mostly been manned by Thomas (39%), Nocioni (36%), Gooden (14%), and Deng (6%). A combined 50% from Gooden and Noc wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world if Gooden wasn't playing center for a good chunk of the time Nocioni was on the floor. Similarly Deng's 6% wouldn't be bad if Nocioni wasn't playing center for about half that time.
Luol Deng
It's been great to see that Deng is still capable of producing like he did in the past. I wasn't ever really worried, but watching him go through a month where he shot 40% and uncharacteristically turned the ball over to start the season was difficult at least raise some doubts about whether he could rediscover the things that made him successful. The offense began to come back in December, but his underrated defense really didn't show up until January when he started rebounding again. And despite the knocks on his athleticism, this team gets a whole lot less athletic if he's not playing.
As much as I believe in Tyrus, Deng might still be the player that I'd least want to see go in a trade (excluding Derrick of course). And it's not because I see a lot of potential for Deng to get better. It's because of how productive Deng already is, despite his obvious limitations. As I've said before, he's above-average at offense, defense, and rebounding. You can win with that type of player, and Deng wins his matchup much more than he loses it. Not only has he had a postive PER differential in each of the last four seasons accordng to 82 games, but he led the team in PER differential each of the last four seasons (+4.5, +8.2, +3.4, +3.8). So it shouldn't be a surprise that Deng has had an adjusted plus/minus of at least +4 in every season (+4.3, +7.6, +5.6, +4.6, +4.2). Deng has simply been a consistent difference maker, and I hope he can continue to sustain his recent production.
Tyrus Thomas
I've obviously written quite a bit about Tyrus over the last few years, including this dissertation from last summer. So I'm not planning on writing very much, but we'll see what happens. He is one of my favorite subjects.
Before we get to Tyrus's offense, I have a few comments on the other aspects of his game. In that fanpost from last summer I said to look for Tyrus's blocks and steal to return to closer to his rookie levels without hs personal fouls going up. That's what has happened so far. What was unexpected has been the dropoff in Tyrus's rebounding. He never fell below the Aldridge line, but it hasn't been up to the standard he set in his 1st two seasons. I was never really worried for the longterm given what he had done in previous seasons, but his string of double digit rebounding games is an excellent sign that he's got it back together. Now we can talk about the offense.
In December and January combined Tyrus shot 48% from the field and 83% from the line for a 55.5% TS%, and only turned it over 12% of the time. That's an offensive rating of 113 sustained over 30+ games. That's efficient offense despite, not really playing that well on offense, yet.
According to the NBA shot tracking data since December 1st, Tyrus has shot 55.5% in the immediate basket area after finishing only 40.4% of his shots to begin the season. He's made 40.5% of his jumpers after making only 26.3% to begin the season. Interestingly, it doesn't seem to matter how close Tyrus is to the basket when it comes to his jumper. He shot nearly the same % both inside of 16 feet and outside of 16 feet before and after December 1st. Where he got his shots did change slightly. He only went from taking 48% to 50% of his shots in the immediate basket area so he wasn't taking fewer outside shots. In fact he took more longer jump shots. His jumpers inside of 16 feet went from 24% of his shots to just 17% of his shots. So if you've been following along with the math, you know that his long jumpers rose from 28% of his shots to a full third of his shots. Obviously the key numbers are Tyrus finishing 55% of his shots at the basket (71/128) and making 40% of his jumpers (51/126).
As I said, I don't believe Tyrus is playing that well offensively yet. I've been confident for a long time that he would be a guy that could make 40% of his jumpers, which is why anybody telling him that he shouldn't shoot jumpers drove me nuts (fans, announcers, and coaches included). I obviously see all the boneheaded plays too. The jumpers he jacks whenever he hasn't been able to get a shot in awhile. He still doesn't swing the ball enough. And there's the out of control drives to the basket, but Tyrus is a player that can be productive in spite of himself and I think a lot of that stuff starts to go away if he's more involved offensively. His assist rate is nearly half of what it was last season, but it's more the result of a lack of opportunities than selfishness. He's hardly been posted or isolated at all this year. Deng's assist rate has suffered a similar fate. There's a lot Tyrus can do to create opportunities for his teammates. I'll be interested to see if the coaching staff gives Tyrus more opportunities to create offensively. From day one Tyrus has wanted to be a play maker offensively, and he believes he can help the team win that way. The coaches need to recognize that and channel that desire. I've long seen Tyrus as a future 2nd offensive option. Not necessarily the 2nd leading scorer, but rather the 2nd guy you run plays for. The 2nd guy that make something happen on his own and creates fr his teamamtes. Deng might score more points, but Tyrus would get more plays run for him. Maybe that's a pipe dream, but I believe it's tangible with the right coaching and commitment from Tyrus.
Andres Nocioni
If there's an action that has defined both the Bulls defense and Nocioni over the last few seasons, it's probably trying to take a charge. According to 82games the Bulls drew 273 charges in 05-06 and254 in 06-07, but dropped to 187 in 07-08 with the team's defensive intensity declining and more importantly the refs no longer indulging the floppers across the league like they did in the past. It seemed like every member of the team loved to flop, Chander, Harrington, Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, Duhon, and Hinrich all drew their fair share. And of course the king of floppers challenged for the league lead.
His ability to draw a charge coupled with good defensive rebounding for a 6'7" player, mitigated most of Nocioni's defensive faults and allowed him to defend the PF position. When he was drawing a charge every 33 minutes (05-06) or every 28 minutes (06-07) the costs of Nocioni's inability to stick to guarding his own man weren't so high. Things changed dramatically last season with Nocioni only drawing a charge every 52 minutes he was on the court (07-08). The decline in his physical ability to get to the spot coupled with the changes in how the game is coupled were a death blow for Noc, and only compounded by his endless whining after he clobbers somebody. I can't find charge stats for this season, but I can't remember the last time I saw Nocioni successfully draw a charge. Instead his foul rate is at a career high 5.1 per 36 minutes.
The key to Nocioni's game was ability to play PF. His positional PER has always been higher at PF than SF, primarily because his offensive opportunities increase. He could actually drive by PFs, which meant his FT rate at PF has been nearly double that of his FT rate at SF each of the last four seasons. He used to be able to match the production of opposing PFs, but that is clearly no longer the case.
As write this I'm trying to remember the Nocioni that surprised people with his athleticism. The guy that could throw down a power dunk in traffic, or make the occasional spectacular block. Or even the guy who was making 50+% of his mid-range jumpers. He could probably still play backup PF somewhat effectively, but that should be a 12-16 minute per game role behind Tyrus. Unfortunately he's paid like a guy that plays twice that.
Thabo Sefolosha
I think Thabo has settled into who is going to be. He can still improve, but he's basically the player he's going to be going forward. He's not going to be a starting SG, he's probably not going to be a starter period. But, he can still be a key rotation player because of the things he can do well
There's been some improvement offensively. I noticed this before looking at the stats, but he's shooting 61% on his inside FGA after making 55% in his 1st two seasons. He's trying to force things offensively much less than last season, which has led to his usage% dropping to 14% after being at 17% his 1st two seasons. As a result his % FGM that were assisted has increased 7% both for jumpshots and inside shots. That's probably a good thing, and bodes well for his future.
Thabo brings considerable value to the table, but that value doesn't come from being a defensive stopper. When it comes to guarding his man, he's in the neighborhood of Luol Deng. That's an above-average defender, so someone that can force a player to take tough shots, but not an elite defender. His PER against has been similar to Deng's in each of the last two seasons.
Thabo's real defensive value comes from help defense. Thabo's combination of defensive rebounding, blocks, and steals, put him in a select group of players, and most of them are athletic power forwards. His steal and block rates have increased every season. The last couple of weeks have shown what can happen when this team creates transiton opportunities defensively. There's only three players on the roster that can consistently create those type of opportunties, and Thabo is one of them.
There are situations where Thabo fits well. He's a good backup for Deng at SF. When Vinny is playng Nocioni and Deng at the forwards, putting Thabo on the floor at SG makes a lot of sense. Nocioni and Gordon should rarely if ever be on the floor at the same time anyway, at this point they basically serve the same function. Ideally you're keeping two of Thomas, Noah, and Sefolosha on the floor for defensve balance.
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23 comments
Comments
"He never fell below the Aldridge line"
ha! Love any shots at Aldridge, as you know.
The decrease in rebounding from Tyrus this season is indeed worrisome, but as you said hopefully the past few games signal a return to his mean.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 9, 2009 10:00 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
11th in the NBA at offensive rebounds
On the 2nd best rebounding team in the NBA so his so called "lack of defensive rebounds’ is causing the team no problems.
Karma
by Sabonis4Ever on Feb 10, 2009 11:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What have his offensive, defensive and total rebounding rates been...
…since Dec. 1st? Or even Jan. 1st?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 9, 2009 10:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
His monthly rates were for OR% and DR% were in the stats posts.
There wasn’t much difference with Jan and Dec combined from his full season numbers. He was bad on the offensive boards in December and bad on the defensive boards in January. I haven’t worried about January too much because Deng and Sefolosha were great on the boards, and the team was improved overall in January.
During the 7 game road trip Tyrus pulled down 13% of offensive rebounds, 23% of defensive rebounds, and 18.5% overall, while playing around 32 minutes per game.
by Scotter on Feb 9, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So we don't need a SF or PF but we still need a Center
Scotter. Who would you make available for trades. What position would you concentrate on. Would it be a center?
by hlac on Feb 9, 2009 11:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Noah's a center
really, he is.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 9, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
-1 Matt, can we get an UNrec option?
Seriously, I would like to know why you don’t acknowledge Noah. He is young and will grow into his position over time. You may cite his lack of effort in the off season which is fair, but I believe he will snap out if it. Regardless of the off season, he is playing at a good level right now. He is rebounding at a great rate and his fouls will go down over time. Tyson Chandler couldn’t stay on the floor during some of his early years because of foul trouble, but worked on that and is now one of the best defensive centers in the league. Noah is a Center… a starting caliber center and should remain there until further notice.
If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.
by Chi 'Till I Die on Feb 9, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see Noah ever being big enough to play center 35 minutes a game
night in and night out. I do see him being a good backup center and PF, just perfect for a team that’s contending. And then there’s his free throw shooting.
by hlac on Feb 9, 2009 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Someone asked my opinion on Tyrus the other day, since I'm a skeptic
I guess I’m still a skeptic, but it’s hard to ignore his production over the last month and a half or so has really picked up. Really since mid december he’s shooting the ball just fine after his ridiculously bad start to things. My main concern is that he’s (and Noah) are still not strong enough and that Thomas’ rebounding up until the last couple weeks has generally been mediocre at best. It was a reflection of doing a really crummy job of boxing out… a lot. But it’s hard to argue with something like 5 double digit rebounding performances in his last seven games. If he can keep a solid pace in both rebounding and shooting, for the next several weeks, I think I’ll be willing to deem him around the corner.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he pulls it off. Unfortunately, I also wouldn’t be surprised if he Gooden comes back, takes/is given Tyrus’ job, and Tyrus goes back in a funk. I guess either way, the question is only a few weeks from answering.
by Sports2 on Feb 9, 2009 1:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Great post but I wish Scotter would have included Gooden's stats.
If Vinny gives TT’s minutes to Gooden at PF, instead of taking some away from Noce and almost all of Gray’s, than he should be, as Ronald Reagan once said about Communism “relegated to the ash heap of history.” as far as being a head coach (instead of a head case) is concerned.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on Feb 9, 2009 5:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather see Noc relegated to the ash heap of history. Gooden's rebounding at the 4 > Noc's rebounding at the 4
their defense is equally abysmal and they are both inconsistent offensive black holes.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 9, 2009 5:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've always been a big-time Tyrus backer
And I’m really, REALLY stoked by his recent play (although I’ve been too busy at work to watch any of it), but I think we’re all getting a little too far ahead of ourselves. Most really, really good players will show something in a full season by (or before) age 22, but if he can do it this season from December 1 through the end of the season then I’ll be sold. And damn happy.
(There are certainly exceptions to the rule – late bloomers, that is – but when evaluating TT we need to consider all the players with similar stats who never developed and not just the players with similar stats at age 22 who blossomed into stars).
The other day I scatter-graphed TT’s TS% by game this year, and it really outlined the change he made from about Game 15-20 through the season to-date. I’m hoping those makes on close shots aren’t just a string of good luck and that they reflect a skill development, but TT making close shots is something I’d actually written off as a possibility. I hope I’m wrong.
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
by Jivas on Feb 11, 2009 1:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you do google.docs or anything? I'd be interested to see it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 9:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, if Rose could start drawing fouls like Thomas, and Thomas could start finishing like Rose...
…there’s your inside scoring right there!
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 9:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gooden is a step up from Noc because of his size.
I meant that when they substitute, Tyrus should be the starter, with Gooden coming off the bench for both him and Noah while Gray watches unless the Bulls need a hack-a-Shaq defense.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on Feb 9, 2009 7:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
How about
you guys give us (Portland) Deng and Hinrich, you get Amare, and we give Phoenix some young kids.
I mean, if you are willing to part with Deng, we’ll take him.
by Cablinasian on Feb 10, 2009 8:07 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
that's not a terrible idea
there are reasons to keep Tyrus over Deng in an Amare deal, and while it looks like the Suns wouldn’t want Deng’s long-term deal, maybe the Blazers would (and should, to be honest).
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2009 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Deng has put up three pretty sub-par games in a row
I thought that was behind him.
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2009 8:59 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
tough to redeem yourself
when you’re sat the whole 4th.
(not that he’s mr. crunch time, but still…)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
(and he was awful for the time he was out there)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't get why he must be so inconsistent.
Does he just wig out whenever he’s mentioned in a trade?
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bulls weren't moving the ball particularly well in the first three quarters and he usually gets lost in the offense when that happens.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 11, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's probably the guy that suffers the most
When Derrick Rose isn’t having a good game early on. He had some good looks that didn’t go in, but he was just lost last night. I think he’ll bounce back on Thursday.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 11, 2009 2:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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