Amare made available
by Owlx on Feb 5, 2009 2:20 PM CST
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If you are Paxson, do you want him on your team (frankly, i would) and if so, what do you offer to Kerr to try and get him.
My only fear is that Kerr gets desperate and "Gasol's" the trade and sends him to cleveland for Wally's expiring contract and draft picks or something.
Hopefully something can get done and Amare can be a Bull by the 19th. But i'm not expecting much.
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Wow
This is huge.
The only fear is if the Bulls get Amare, you can say goodbye to Bosh.
I can’t be mad at either one though.
Wow
Amare would have 2010 options
He has that lucrative player option he can exercise in Summer 2010. We get his offense for this season and all of next season and maybe in the East he sees he’ll have to play defense.
If it doesn’t work out, Amare can test free agency and we can go after Bosh.
I’m warming to this idea. I think we might have to send Noc or Kirk along with Tyrus, but this might be OK.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
Here's what I think it would take.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2456302830321727&teams=2121214&te=&cash=
The Suns would obviously want youth in return and probably a pick. I would say getting rid of Noc’s contract cancels out having to give up Thabo and Tyrus. Since we’d have Hughes and Amare’s contracts coming off the books in 2010 we should be able to resign Amare. Rose-Amare combo with Deng has the 3rd musketeer? I like it.
I think they would want Hinrich
Nash maybe untouchable (which I don’t understand), but they need a replacement eventually
I don't think so
They wouldn’t need Hinrich to come off the bench and play behind richardson, barbosa and nash.
Why would they want Noc instead of Gooden's expiring?
I think the theory would be that getting Amare would cancel out having to give up on Thabo and Tyrus.
not thabo...
can we use gordon? i mean theres no hope for resigning him next year right?
and i’d think he’d be cool going to PHX.
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
Hinrich Deng Noah
or Gooden Deng Tyrus
Some combination like that will be what it takes. And even that won’t be enough most likely. I would bet there are teams out there that could offer more.
I know you don't necessarily value thomas...
…but I don’ know if they could do better than the proposal I have a few weeks back. Deng-Thomas-Noah.
I don’t like it for the Bulls, but it’s intriguing……….
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I agree that it can look better
Hopefully Thomas’ recent play sparks their interest. I think it’s great for the Bulls too though. Most of these players are replacable, which is where I disagree. Thomas/Noah while good young players can be found on many other teams. And acquiring them later is certainly much easier than finding young all-star power forwards.
I just worry other teams can offer more. This is a scenario (along with Bosh) where I think the Bulls should overpay at all costs if it means keeping Rose. Even if Amare’s attitude/defense don’t work here, he’ll still have a ton of trade value.
And if he plays hard, doesn't complain, yet doesn't like the cold weather and just leaves?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Oh well. It's worth the risk.
I can’t think of a situation where a big money player left a team because the weather was cold.
They leave for business reasons/ego/winning. Chicago is good enough financially there is pretty much no reason for him to leave. The Bulls will be an upcoming team with Amare the centerpiece (he can be the star like the rumors say he is itching to be). And hopefully they start winning soon. They will be a good team making the playoffs/getting better as Rose improves. Don’t forget they’d still have Hinrich/Gordon, plus a great trade piece next year in Hughes contract.
And....
how young do you want him to be? 28 means 5 good years left, 2 declining an then wild card.
How many all-star power forwards or centers are under 28?
Well, he's an All Star in fan recognition only this year.
And, in my opinion, which I understand is in the minority, I’m not sold on him being an All Star again in a slowed-down system.
And on the age… I guess I’m not convinced Rose is going to be “great” until 2011 or 2012. That puts Stoudemire at 29, 30. There’s still a window, of course, but for someone who relies so much on athleticism and has an injury history (even though it might be completely history), I’m wary. That’s all.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
But the question is, if not him then who?
You could find a reason for every player to not be liked. If there was a perfect players (Paul/Lebron/Howard), they are untouchable. You have to assume some risk.
i still can't get over...
the sight of you two having a somewhat civilized dialogue.
amare would be a coup indeed… but my only concern would be that knee.
i would venture to guess that
amare’s defense (or lack of) is a result of the phoenix system. if it is learned, it can be unlearned. however, if it is inherent in his nature, then there is a problem.
where is skiles when you need him?…
No he'll never be a defensive star
but it’s much easier to find a defensive big to pair him with than an offensive big to pair with the players the bulls currently have.
He's still got a 20-21 PER
Though yes I do agree that he’s an all star in fan recognition this year….I’m trying to say that he’s still more than effective even at 75% effort.
He’s playing All Star Esque statistically, but yeah the lack of effort would surely drop him out of the all star nods by most…..coaches typically don’t vote for guys who quit on their teams….
But he’s in every way a superstar…..he can be so electric on offense to make up for teh D shortcomigns.
We’d be silly to not want him if he’s available.
I fully admit (or at least, have before)...
….to my “silliness” in being hesitant about Stoudemire. If it’s for any single starter (current) and Gooden and/or Hughes, I jump. If it’s more, I’m hesitant. If it’s more, I want a guaranteed extension.
I’m not saying I don’t do it. Not at all. Just that, for me, being the uninformed person that I am, I’m glad I don’t have to make the decision and am not confident enough in my ability to judge professional basketball talent to say it’s a slam-dunk decision.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I agree with you there.
100%….though even maybe if we can’t get a guaranteed extension, we make the trade with a stipulation that they get our TT and Noah and a less desirable contract for our team (Noc…because of lenght mostly).
If we get Amare, I actually might want to try to keep Kirk (we need SOME defense).
Good points.
I do appreciate how we can forget arguments in other places like they didnt happen. :-)
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Great talent does that.
If the Bulls had Paul, Kobe, James, Amare and Howard and a bunch of scrubs, no one would argue over who should start and where.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Tyger
I really don’t want to keep this arguing going. Let’s end it, truce got it?
There’s no reason for it either. We disagree on a few points, that’s that.
He will be 28 eventually.
he is 26 now and turns 27 at the beginning of next season
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 4:04 PM CST up reply actions
That should be enough, honestly. They have no interest in re-signing him and it's abundantly
clear he wants out. He’s not really even trying anymore. I also doubt that they are going to get a lot of great offers, because he can opt out in 2 years and again, it’s clear that neither side wants him back. Other concerns teams around the league will have… injury history, attitude, and ability to re-sign him. If we can’t get him to agree to sign long-term (i.e. not bolt the team in 2010), I don’t want to see a deal done.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 5, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Where's he gonna go?
Chicago will be able to give him the money and he’s not going to be able to play in a bigger market or with a better point guard.
by oakdale on Feb 5, 2009 5:29 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
he could just bolt and go play with Wade or LeBron or Nash wherever Nash goes (NYK)
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 5, 2009 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
I'm pretty sure Amare already did that (played with Nash and play for D'Antoni)...
and he wasn’t happy, right?
Oh, and btw, alot of ppl mention Nash as a big 2010 FA, but honestly he’s on his way out already.
There are lots of variables.
What if he hates the offensive system under Vinny? What if he hates Vinny? What if he’d rather play in Miami with Wade for the same money (but without state income tax)?
What if, despite his awesomeness combined with Rose’s, we still aren’t close to championship contention?
If he bolts, which he would have every right to as a FA, and we’ve given up Deng or Tyrus, we’ve basically just traded young players for cap space.
What if we keep asking what if and do nothing?
Wonder what that would look like?
I’m not sure you break the bank and cash in every chip but you’ve got to try a pretty good offer.
Woj knows what he's talking about. He is pretty on top of the league rumors most of the time.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 5, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
I know he's old and expensive
but what’s the interest level on Shaq? He’d blow up the LT but if we got rid of Kirk/Deng/Noah we could go w/ a lineup of
Rose
Gordon
Thabo
TT
Shaq
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
no.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 5, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The interest level is "no."?
Thanks.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
haha, you're welcome. that's my interest level on him. I absolutely do not want to see Shaq
in a Bulls uniform.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 5, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
especially if it means giving up Deng.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 5, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
I don't want him here, Period.
He has 36 and will play, say, three more seasons? He’s not going to be on the league when Rose starts to play for a ring
The Corpse?
When they played the Bulls, I was afraid Shaq would collapse and die on the court. He looked very old and very slow.
by El Toro de Goro on Feb 5, 2009 5:51 PM CST up reply actions
we're still talking about Deng in terms of 'getting rid of'??
I actually have some interest in Shaq. Bulls still need a big oaf. He’s the biggest and oafiest. And you wouldn’t have to deal Thomas or Noah.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 2:53 PM CST up reply actions
Would Shaq be happy here?
at this point in his career would he want to come and hang out with Vinny?
He left Miami on bad terms.
As far as would he help the Bulls, sure he takes up a lot of space around the basket and you can still throw it in to him.
Besides the weather (which may be a serious factor)
I think he’d be fine. Not like Vinny would have any say in what he actually does anyway…Shaq has a set style/amt. of minutes that he’s comfortable with.
The only thing I’d be worried about is his little “rejuvination” this season might just be him playing for his final big payday, and then he really shows the old age.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
Right
Send Deng to PHX because they liked/drafted him from the beginning anyway.
What about this?
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
are you serious?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Crap,
no I’m not. Didn’t mean to put Ben in there – that was a diff. one I was thinking w/ Philly involved too and took them out @ the last sec.
Trying to work/ponder trades is not a good idea. Try this one.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
I don't put Deng in there either
I’d have to be convinced into wanting Shaq in the first place. And then when I was, it’d only be for contracts. None of Rose/Deng/Gordon/Thomas/Noah
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions
I never wanted to trade Deng.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:59 PM CST up reply actions
thanks.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 2:53 PM CST up reply actions
I really have mixed feeling on this
I mean on one hand, I would die to see Amare in a Bulls uniform.
On the other hand, I would die and come back to life to see Bosh in a Bulls uniform.
I guess if Bosh ever hit the trading block, Amare would be a good piece to include in the deal.
Fuck it, GET AMARE NOW!
Fuck that!
Get Anare to pair with Tyrus and Rose. Give up whatever you have to. Make it work Pax
Drew Gooden works harder on defense than Amare! And Kirk ... he ... he's the best shooting guard ever!
This deal gets my approval.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
I don't see how Amare and Thomas co-exist
any deal means trading Thomas, keeping Noah.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:04 PM CST reply actions
why not?
I think they would complement each other well. Plus we would have the most atheletic 4-5 combo in the entire league
by drosekillsall on Feb 5, 2009 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
Let's count the reasons:
(1) Amare isn’t a center.
(2) Neither one of them can effectively guard centers one-on-one.
(3) Both are maximized as help-side defenders.
(4) While he’s able to post up if asked, Amare is much better in pick-and-roll plays or pick-and-pop plays (which is exactly what Tyrus is also — eventually — going to be good at).
I don’t think it would crash and burn, but it’s not ideal. Noah-Amare does seem to work much better.
that's pretty much it
plus it’s a function of who the Suns would want too. I think Thomas has more value and (much more) upside. So why fight to keep Thomas when he wouldn’t be a great fit with Amare anyway?
Also, if you’re looking at a 2010 bailout option if Amare doesn’t work out, Noah’s deal is more friendly that season.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
Or
Thomas can stop taking jumpshots, which he sucks at, and stay under the basket, where he rocks. Amare can do Amare Things within 15 feet, and everyone’s happy.
he does not rock under the basket
he’s better outside, facing up and driving (or taking ‘sucky’ jumpshots).
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:59 PM CST up reply actions
If only Tyrus rocked under the basket,
we wouldn’t be desperately proposing trades for other big men. Tyrus can rebound, he can block shots from the help side, and he can catch an alley-oop anywhere within the tri-state area. Also, he can shoot freethrows well for a big man, and when he’s in rhythm he can knock down open jumpers. (His jumper only sucks when he rushes it or gets overconfident in it, which was often early in the season but not so much recently.)
I think in the event the Suns don’t bite on Thomas, you could give up Deng instead and have Thomas/Amare/Noah starting. I think they could as 3-4, but clearly Amare is better not having to guard 5s. Defensively that lineup might be better than with Deng (I don’t think Thomas will be worse at guarding quick 3s than Deng)
You waste a lot of good things about Tyrus by putting him at the 3.
Also, he hasn’t really filled out fully yet. He’ll look much more like Amare bulk-wise in the next couple of years simply by getting older. Having him at the 3 would be . . . awkward, at best. (Now, if he suddenly develops a 3-point shot . . .)
suggesting moving Thomas to the 3
is becoming the Bulls equivalent of moving Urlacher to safety (or Zorich to linebacker)
(apologize for wrong sport-ness)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
Wow, a Zorich reference
But, he made so many tackles and hustled so hard. Who wouldn’t want a 280 lb middle linebacker.
Urlacher was a safety in college wasn't he?
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 5, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions
Tyrus was a point guard
in AAU leagues.
Urlacher was safety at New Mexcio.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
If you use the word safety liberally.
What Urlacher played was really a rover back position. They basically played a 3-3-4 with Urlacher as the 11th player playing free to play anywhere. So he was never a true safety with normal coverage responsibilities. There was some discussion of playing him at safety or switching him to offense full time at the time of the draft, but the overwhelming consensus was that he was a linebacker.
i agree they would have trouble on offense
unless Tyrus learned to defer. You could get a situation where both guys are jacking shots. But if both guys buy in, they could work well. You just need someone more defensive minded to come in and back them up.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions
"They want a combination of expiring contracts, a talented young player – preferably a forward – and draft picks"
Well, if this is what they want, I only see four, maybe five teams – there could be more, though – that could offer that. I made my selection because of the young foward that they want
Nets – Brook Lopez
Minnesota – Kevin Love
Kings – Spencer Haws
Heat- Michael Beasley
Bulls – Tyrus Thomas/Joakim Noah
If i were Kerr, I would try to get Brook Lopez. But since they already have Shaq, Miami and the Bulls can offer a lot more. We have Simmons, Gooden, Gordon and Hughes expiring contracts and a talented young forward in Tyrus, who’s like a small Stoudemire.
So, I came up with two deals. One very bad for the Phoenix point of view and one a little better. Here they go
First
Bulls send: Hughes, Gooden, Simmons, Thabo and Tyrus
Phoenix send: Stoudemire, Barbosa and Amundson
Basically, it’s all of our garbage plus Thabo and Tyrus (the young forward). Now, I certainly would like this to happen, but Kerr is not that crazy. So, I came up with another one.
Second
Bulls send: Gooden, Simmons, Deng and Tyrus
Phoenix: Stoudemire and Barbosa
Now, this one I believe that can happen. But do you guys think that Pax has the balls to make a move like this? I only believe when I see it. So far, the answer to my own question is NO!
Im pretty sure
the suns really like barbosa….gooden and larry hughes plus the next two years 1st round picks!!!! Hey kerr and pax are best friends plus vdn…huh…. maybe it will work??? The suns can get something good in 2010
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
It would be a dream, but I really don't see it happening
Rose, Gordon, Deng, Stoudemire and Noah is a playoff team, at least
You can't trade consecutive first round picks.
I would think it will take a package starting at Tyrus and Gooden, first rounder and perhaps another warm body from Chicago in exchange for Amare and cap fodder.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
do you know how we got
the knicks to give us thier first round picks? cant we do something like that with pheonix, or is there a rule that changed since then?
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
So, step one: get the Suns to hire Isaiah Thomas.
by arjoseph on Feb 5, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Isiah has to have some dirt on Kerr or Sarver
or both.
Go Zeke. We need ya.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
A more real one (from the suns point of view)
SUNS Get Bulls Get
Tyr Stoudemire
Gordon For Barbosa
Noc
Gooden
Suns Lineup Bulls Lineup
Nash Rose / Kirk
JRich / Gordon Barbosa / Thabo
Hill / Noc Deng
Tyr / Gooden Stoudemire
Shaq / Robin Noah / Gray
Why would the Suns do this?
They wouldn’t be far enough under the cap, if at all, to re-sign Gordon.
This Should Be Enough
Deng, Gooden, Noah, Simmons, for Amare, and Lopez
Because he's the only player with real value!
Both as a young player and help a team win now.
Or just keep hanging onto our players
that’s been working great. let’s get some more lottery picks too.
First we have to trade our good players,
you forgot about that part.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Oh, and
sign Ben Wallace.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
I posted this before - Portland/Phoenix/Chicago
Portland-PHX-Chicago trade
Portland trades: Outlaw, Bayless and LaFrentz to Suns
Bulls trade: Hinrich and Nocioni to Blazers
Suns trade: Amare to Bulls
Suns get big time cap space and a couple of young players. Bulls get Amare and cap room to resign him (and Ben). Portland gets Kirk and Nocioni.
Its a win, win, win trade.
Someone call Pritchard
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 3:10 PM CST reply actions
Email Sam too while you're at it
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
Why would the Blazers do this?
For one, it doesn’t appear they’re willing to give up Bayless, at least not just to get back Kirk. Getting back Noc is a nail in the coffin, not a bonus.
Wouldn’t the Blazers be better off just trading Raef, Outlaw and Bayless for Amare himself?
Then they could roll out Oden/Amare/Roy, and have Aldridge as their sixth man.
by Sports2 on Feb 5, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe, maybe not
If you want, they could trade Raef+Aldridge for Amare, and then still have Outlaw and Blake to trade to us for Hinrich. And simply keep Bayless.
That's a better deal
As I was pondering Amare to the Blazers I had to send LMA back to the Suns. It would probably be fine since the defensive worries would be addressed with Oden/Przyz.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
well they have been on the market for a starting pg
not a starting power forward. Amare is some risk and you have to resign him. I don’t know if even they would want to pay Aldridge, Stoudemire, Oden and Roy. I have never heard of them pursuing Amare, but if they were inclined, they could make the best deal. They have expiring contracts and young players. But I think they are just looking for guys to compliment players they already have and Noce and Hinrich do that.
So I think they do this deal because it better fits what they already have. Unless Portland is planning on keeping all its young players, they are eventually going to have to pick and choose which ones to keep. Bayless, Batum, Rudy Fernandez – you could plug any of those guys into that spot with Outlaw.
Word was that Pritchard was really high on Hinrich and Noce retains value around the league.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
I Agree...
Not! If I am the Blazers GM why would I trade Bayless for Hinrich? If he is willing to do that I am mad Paxson has not already did that deal (Noch, Hinrich, for Bayless, Raef).
why do the bulls need another young pg to develop
and good use of the 1980’s style put down, it was really classic. psyche!
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
blazers
shit. what if the blazers trade LMA plus lafrentz for amare. That be pretty scary. Oden seems like he would be a good defensive complement to amare. I konw the blazers are in search of a sf and pg but trading for Amare would make them pretty dangerous.
by Sambossanova on Feb 5, 2009 5:59 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
abolutely love it
probably the only thing missing that we would have to throw in is a slew of 1st rounders
I'll repeat what I said before.
If I’m the Suns, I’d talk to Detroit
If I were the Suns, I’d simply say they want a trade that maximizes their return along two dimensions.
1. Financial
2. Talent
When you take both dimensions into perspective, I don’t see that we can make a better offer than what I’d expect other teams to offer.
I mean, we can’t offer much relief. Gooden’s $7M expiring + Hughes’ $26M comes to $13M next year for Hughes instead of $16M or so for Amare. If they’re looking for financial relief, sure, they’ll lose on talent, but paying Hughes $13M is losing on talent and getting a shitty financial deal too.
There are plenty of teams out there with bigger expiring contracts who could take on Amare. And offer more talent too.
Think about Detroit. Detroit is willing to shop AI and Sheed, supposedly. You don’t think the Pistons would trade one or both of those guys for Amare?
And if you’re the Suns, wouldn’t you rather have an expiring contract than have to pay Larry Hughes $13M next year? And if you’re trying to give it a go with Shaq and Nash for the rest of this year, wouldn’t you rather have one of those two guys, who are probably both hall of famers, than Larry Hughes?
Suppose the Suns traded Amare + JRich + Goron Dragic (they signed him for three years and he blows) for AI and Sheed.
The Suns get to trot out
1-Nash
2-AI
3-Grant Hill
4-Rasheed Wallace
5-Shaq
Granted they’re all ancient, but that’s a freaking exciting team. There will be a lot of people paying to see if the old geezers can make one more run at the title. And you know what, they’ll at least have as good a chance to win this season as they do now. Probably better. And they’ll sell lots of jerseys and sell out their games.
And next year, they go from having $75M under contract to having about $45M under contract. That’s about $15M under the cap. $30M under the cap because Steve Nash’s deal is non-guaranteed. That’ll let them either re-sign guys for less money and make another 1 year push, or go ahead and start a major rebuild.
Would the Pistons do it?
Doesn’t
1- Stuckey
2- Rip
3- JRich
4- Amare
5- McDyess
6th Man- Prince
Look like an Eastern conference contender? Sure does to me.
While I understand that Phoenix wold like “young talent”, they aren’t going to get any young talent to really change the game for them. And the rest of their team is downright old and has one more shot to win. Why not try to give it one more go this year?
Getting AI and Sheed does that.
Getting, say, Tyrus Thomas, Drew Gooden and a pick does not.
The Suns will have to live for some uncomfortable period of time with Shaq and Nash even though they’re starting over. What are those veteran guys going to do if the Suns trade Amare for an expiring contract and a pick? They’ll wig out because it means they’re screwed. There would be mutiny.
On the other hand, if they trade for AI and Sheed, they get big-time expiring contracts, lots of playoff revenues, and lots of attention. From a financial perspective, it’s can’t miss.
So um, no... I don't see the Bulls getting him
I’ve also said I’m skittish on Amare, but I also can’t figure what sort of offer to make for him.
Tyrus, our 1st rounder, and Gooden?
That puts us over the luxury tax, by the way.
I liked your point in the other thread regarding said skittishness.
While Amare appears to be fully recovered and healthy, we don’t know the long term consequences/durability of that micro-fracture surgery he had…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
yeah i think they are looking to rebuild
would AI, Nash, Shaq and Wallace mean anything but a 1st round exit? I don’t think they want the aggravation. They would still be a horrible defensive team would be even more selfish on the offensive end.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions
They can have a young team starting in the summer
when they let all those guys walk or sign and trade them to contenders, and trade Shaq as well.
Otherwise I just see Hill, Shaq and Nash ripping Steve Kerr’s head off.
You do have a point
If they go after Millsap, that’s a young big with (tons) of talent. But I’m no so sure if they want to contend this year…
by bull83 on Feb 5, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Consider the business side of things
Option 1 is:
They trade Amare for a mediocre expiring contract like Gooden and a marginal couple of young prospects (say Tyrus, Thabo and a pick).
Shaq, Nash, Hill, and everyone else are angry at management. They miss the playoffs and the associated revenues that come with it. Ticket sales decline over the rest of the year as it’s obvious they don’t want to contend and are playing out the string.
Option 2 is:
They make a deal like that with Detroit, and boast a lineup of five household names. Maybe if the old-timers play hard, they get somewhere in the playoffs. Or maybe they don’t, but everyone will be showing up to find out. More revenues, a compelling story. Then this summer, they can, as you said, totally re-make their team by going after big name free agents like Millsap or Boozer. Who are, of course, better than Tyrus.
So as far as their options, option 2 is better in the short run and the long run than trading with us.
by Sports2 on Feb 5, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
people are already showing up in Phx
if you think allen iverson and rasheed wallace will mean an attendance spike in Arizona you haven’t been to Arizona. The team is already popular. You aren’t going to get more popular than Nash and the run, gun suns were. I think Detroit can make a deal for Amare, but not that deal. Phoenix would be just as good letting Amare walk themselves. Your trade doesn’t improve Phoenix, free up cap space or give them picks.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
they'll show up if they think they can win a title
trading for contracts and Tyrus Thomas doesn’t really help them this season. (though Tyrus has been fairly awesome…)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
but they wouldn't get out the first round with
Iverson-Nash-Hill-Wallace-Shaq. And I think everyone knows that, including PHX fans. Iverson and Nash would never work in a back court, they both need the ball too much. They would be an absolute disaster defensively. If they could trade Amare for a legit chance to compete this year, I think they would. But I don’t think they are going to be able to find that trade.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
Do you believe they can beat the Lakers or the Spurs...
with a team of Nash, AI, Hill, Sheed and Shaq?
You get a rec for that explanation
But I believe Sheed and AI with Shaq, hum… Not seeing them co-exist. And the season would be lost if they loose Amare, anyway. So…
I don't believe it'd actually work
But I think lots of casual fans might pay to see if it will. Or at least to see the ensuing trainwreck :)
I agree with this
I believe they’d prefer a ‘superstar’ (in name only) expiring contract to make one last playoff run.
(Why not just trade back for Marion then.)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe
don’t know if the Marion bridge has been burned.
The other thing is whether the Pistons or Heat would actually take back another player on a long-term deal like JRich. That’s another key component of the deal, because that shaves another $13M off their cap next year.
Just a straight up trade of Amare for Marion (or Sheed or AI) wouldn’t do that.
I could see the Pistons doing taking back JRich though, since he could probably play there, it wouldn’t put them over the tax, and he’s a guy who’d generate some local interest.
they just gave Hamilton that extension, however
between hamilton/stuckey/prince, not sure JRich is worth the deal in that role.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions
Stuckey's the PG
I dunno… the way I see it, if I’m the Suns, I’d want to force someone into taking him. Otherwise, they aren’t really under the cap, and none of the “prospects” I see bandied about are very enticing.
I know he's the PG
just saying they have starters at 1-3. Plus Stuckey can take minutes at the 2.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
Not saying it's a perfect fit
just that I could see the Pistons accepting that as a cost of the transaction, and then making another move down the road to try and work it out.
AI and Shaq would never work too many egos even though it would be just for half a year
phoenix is a mess already and historic team killers like AI and Sheed (even though i love him) could be waaaaaaay worse than just Amare. yes you would have big names but they probably would not make the playoffs with that roster this year. with the the bulls trade they could at least get some good young players to build around.
by drosekillsall on Feb 5, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
With the Pistons trade
they have the option to get good young players through free agency.
With the Bulls trades I see, the good young players they’re getting are Tyrus, who’s questionable as a prospect, and a mid-round draft pick or two. Not that great a return in my opinion.
They’ll also have to make some sort of decision pretty quickly on Tyrus since he’ll be eligible for an extension this summer.
So, you soured squarely against Thomas during the beginning of this year...
….and aren’t ready to changed your mind again?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I dont think extensions are that big of a deal.
There are a lot of guys who don’t sign them.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
i have no evidence or research to back that up--just how it "seems" to me
piccolamair would be proud
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I might point out several pretty obvious things for your benefit if you can stop being a turd for a couple minutes
1. I soured squarely against Thomas last year, at least in the sense that I don’t expect him to be a star of any sort.
2. Which gets to the point here. He’s played better, and fairly well recently, but it’s not like anyone is going to think twice about trading him for Amare either.
3. The extension point is tied to that as well. Is Tyrus even a player that you’d know how much to offer an extension to at this point? Or is he a guy you’re more uncertain about? I’d say the latter.
The example might be when the TWolves traded Garnett for the Celtics grab bag of young players. They got Al Jefferson, who was a pretty sure thing. They got Telfair, who was pretty uncertain and has been ok. And they got Gerald Green, who was pretty worthless.
I’d say Tyrus is closer on that spectrum to Jefferson than Green, but he’s not been as good as Jefferson was the year before he was traded, and the Suns wouldn’t have as much time to make a decision on him.
As to your last paragraph
I think the Celts trade is a great example to pull from. But Tyrus is much closer to the Gerald Green. That isn’t meant as an insult to Thomas, but he is all potential, mediocre production. It just happens that Gerald Green didn’t work. He could have turned into a good player, much like Thomas can. Deng resembles Al Jefferson, the sure thing that can help you win right away. Now they just need to fill in the blanks on who the rest of the deal should be (Noah/Gooden/Hinrich/draft picks)
you're not allowed in the smart, reasonable Tyrus discussions.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
You don't agree?
forget the end result. Gerald Green and Tyrus are very similar players, especially how Green was thought of at the time of the trade.
no, they're not similar
for the same reasons that you were already DQed from the adult table: you can’t comprehend the idea the Thomas is productive already.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 4:34 PM CST up reply actions
Everyone with a brain knew Gerald Green
was a disaster. J.R. Smith had no value, and you think the poor man’s version had value?
at the time he was traded yes
it’s so easy to judge now. but he was posting marginal PERs as a high schooler. won a dunk contest. good 3pt shooter. he had tons of potential. if you could get rid of your tyrus hard on, you could relax and see some similarities.
I'm sorry
But I agree with the above.
Tyrus always had way higher of a ceiling than Gerald and continues to show why
Just like Jefferson is similar to Deng, but better
The point was, in the Boston deal, they dealt one high upside player (Green/Thomas), one young proven player (Jefferson/Deng) and filler.
And you need to recognize the difference
between a guy that gets steals, blocks, and rebounds and a guy who can only dunk and shoot 3s.
I didn't say they were statistically similar
just that they were both raw, extremely athletic high upside players.
Those stats have different values.
Raw, extremely athletic high upside players that get blocks, steals, and rebounds PF/Cs can still contribute.
Raw, extremely athletic high upside play shooting guards that can’t play defense or create anything on their own offensively can’t effectively contribute.
Your inability to differentiate between guys who are raw and productive and guys who are raw and unproductive is the problem here.
Agree completely
in valuing team play versus individual offensive accolades. There’s a reason five players are on the court instead of one on one. The Bulls as a team (and by team I mean Tyrus and Noah mainly) are playing outstanding team ball. this is exactly what got them into the playoffs for two years in a row. But now (if they can keep this up) it means that they have upgraded their athletic/skilled positions at the point, power forward and center positions. We are bigger, faster and more skilled then we were two years ago when we got to the second round of the playoffs. We also have a stronger small forward in Deng who can finally start being more productive around the rim. The Key is, as always team play.
Wow,
talk to some boston fans. he was the second coming to them. i didn’t say they were identical. i compared them in the same way i compared jefferson/deng. obviously jefferson is better. settle down. sorry they are alike.
No one outside of Boston thought Green was good
Those were the days when making fun of Boston fans was a popular hobby here. I can remember listening to Celtics Stuff Live back then simply for the humor factor.
So if no one thought he was good,
why was he in the deal for KG? He was the second best asset in the deal.
it was all about getting Big Al and taking a shot on
the other guys / accepting them for salary purposes. Also, Gomes was a much better asset. He’s a solid wing and he was when he was shipped out.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 5, 2009 9:04 PM CST up reply actions
No he wasn't the 2nd best asset in that deal.
He was behind Ratliff’s expiring contract, Ryan Gomes, and Telfair for sure, and probably behind the two 1st round picks as well.
Green was in the trade because Boston needed it’s young guards that could actually play. They needed Rondo and Tony Allen who both were better assets. Minnesota really wanted Rondo, Ainge said no way and McHale gave into his buddy. Minnesota could at least sell his potential to the public at the time of the trade when it was a public relations disaster, but they put no effort into actually developing him. I lived in Minneapolis during this whole time period.
That you’re willing to argue that Gerald Green was the 2nd best asset speaks either to a willingness to say anything for the sake of your argument or serious flaw in your analytic abilities.
I think it speaks more towards the latter. The guy
clearly has no idea what the hell he’s talking about.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 5, 2009 9:06 PM CST up reply actions
fuck it
I’m sick of this guy. He’s dragged down too many discussions to his weak level, and then tells people to ‘settle down’ and ‘relax’, which I can’t can’t can’t stand .
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 9:10 PM CST up reply actions
CJ Douche.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 5, 2009 10:19 PM CST up reply actions
indeed, but...
let’s not speak ill of the dead.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 10:29 PM CST up reply actions
yay!
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 5, 2009 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
Well, if you're uncertain, you offer less.
It’d be nice if they could come up with an exact amount, but it’s not the end of the world, or something I’d even consider if I were the Suns. You either like him for his current production and potential or you don’t. Whether you think you can offer and exactly perfect amount this summer shouldn’t matter.
Josh Smith, Josh Childress, Iguodala, Deng, Okafor… all players who didn’t get extensions. Four players re-signed. So what if they have to take another year to evaluate and come up with a better number. It’s irrelevant to trading for him if you’re the Suns.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
as far as being turd, whatever
I think someone stating that offering evidence to back an “opinion” is bad, is an idiot. I’m going to be a turd about that.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Yes, how dare one attempt to support normative judgement with positive statements.
I see why you’re not understanding :P
ahhh, if only picc's comments were stuck to normative judgements....
…you might have a point.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I think there might be miscommunication on this point.
Maybe I didn’t understand what you meant.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I thought you soured more on him earlier this year than last year.
I disagree that few would see him as anything more than a “questionable” prospect. Depending on the weight you throw behind questionable, of course.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I agree with your disagreement
my desire to keep Thomas has only been emboldened this season. Not that I wouldn’t trade him for Amare, but not even give him an extension? silliness.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 4:23 PM CST up reply actions
Do you picture the Bulls offering him an extension this summer?
I’m not saying Tyrus is not worth an extension at all, I’m saying he’s extremely hard to value at this point, and there’s limited time left to do it.
Uncertainty doesn’t just mean you “offer less”. If you’re the Suns and you’re giving up a sure thing to get a guy who you don’t even know how much you’d want to pay in a year, it’s an issue.
I guess you're correct given the early extensions
they’d likely offer the ‘security’ (i.e. discount for the team) extension now. Both sides would likely wait until next offseason when he’s an RFA.
But you’re right he’s not a no-brainer must-sign-now. But by that distinction neither was Deng or Gordon.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 4:36 PM CST up reply actions
And I agree with that.
He’s still got a lot of uncertainty. But a lot of players’ worth isn’t “certain” after their third year. That’s why so many teams and players wait. If they think he’ll reach the potential, or come close, they trade for him. If they don’t think he will, then they don’t trade for him.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Deng vs. Gordon vs. Thomas
If we’re making those distinctions, however, would you really put Tyrus in the same category as Deng? Just because the Bulls farted around with them doesn’t mean they were on the fence about them. Deng at least.
Gordon, maybe, but I tend to think the Tyrus is a bit further south of Gordon, at least in terms of what they actually bring on the court and how comfortable I’d feel with one of them signed long-term.
I don't think the Thomas situation is that far from Gordon's.
People think Gordon is worth everything from the mid-level exception to 11+ million per year. That’s pretty a pretty wide spread.
Agree on that point
I wasn’t being clear but I meant the last paragraph to be my assessment. I’d feel pretty sure of what I’m going to get with signing Gordon. I’d feel quite a bit less sure about what I’m getting with signing Thomas. Irrespective of price.
But yeah, there’s a pretty big spread on Gordon’s valuation.
Wonder if how Gordon's situation plays out
will have any impact on how T2 plays his cards after next season, assuming he keeps playing fairly well but doesn’t make a big case for a lot of money.
I'd imagine he'll be watching
But while there’s that big spread on Gordon’s worth, would anyone argue that Gordon’s resume, up to this point, isn’t significantly better than Tyrus’?
You don't think they have any clue?
And I certainly understand being completely unsure of how good he can be. But I think that’s tied into whether you actually trade for him. If you think you can get a better read on him for a year-and-a-half, and that he’ll be good, you offer it. If you don’t think the next year-and-a-half will provide any further clue how much he’s worth, you don’t trade for him.
I get being uncertain about how good he can be. I disagree on the uncertainty, but I get it. I don’t get how the decision to offer an extension comes into play, though. I think it’s purely a talent and potential-based judgment. I don’t think the extension this year matters much, if at all.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
The decision to offer an extension and his restricted free agency lowers the amount of time in which to resolve the uncertainty
You have a year and a half to make a decision on Tyrus. By comparison, if you look at Noah as a similar player, you’ve got two and a half years to make a decision on him.
True.
But I didn’t view this as a discussion between the trade values of Noah and Thomas. I missed that.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I thought we were discussing the trade value of Thomas
Which, as best I can tell, can really only be discussed vs the relative values of other players. Noah’s just one, but the point stands when comparing him to any young player. You either want a guy who’s proven himself already or a guy with a lot of time left to prove himself. Or both
Really?
That’s nothing I’ve ever heard as an either-or before.
And the “or both” doesn’t make sense at all to me. I’m obviously a moron.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I love it For both teams.
But, the Suns might want a young talent they can build around in the future.
The Bulls
need to give up anything they can do to get this (excluding Rose and Deng). The Gasol trade pissed us off dearly, if he gets shipped to the Cavs for Wally, I’m going to continue to think the NBA is fixed. Pax, get on the phone NOW.
www.chicagobullsky.blogspot.com
It's so weird
When the Bulls are horrible, all jump ship and say “Trade everyone except Rose!”
But when they start to play well, you hear “Trade everyone except Rose, Deng and Thomas (or Noah)!”
I am still ok with trading everyone but Rose
Just for the right price. Hell, I’d trade Rose for the right price.
I'd take Kobe, CP3
Deron, and about 8 other players but yea, point taken.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
lets not get into that again
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:32 PM CST up reply actions
Shh!
lets not get into that again
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
it's wierder when you group everyone together
sure.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
Why would the Suns take anythin less than Deng in return for Stoudemire?
I find it impossible to believe they’re going to trade Stoudemire simply for cap space. I imagine they’d demand both Deng and Tyrus for Stoudemire just as a starting point for negotiations. If they’re serious about trading Amare, they’re going to have a ton of offers.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
if they trade Amare and Barbosa for cap space
along with letting Nash and Shaq walk, than they would have no committed salary for 2010. They would be able to sign 2 max free agents. Or a slew of high level free agents and one big time player. So they could remake their team in a very short time and Deng would potentially get in the way of that.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
They'd also have no players on the roster
So they sign 2 guys for the max, and then what? They have $10-$15 million left to sign 10 other players? Why would any free agent want to sign with a team with an empty roster anyways?
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
well i'm assuming they extend Lopez
they also would have 2 more draft picks. Look at what they are paying the rest of their guys now? They have a bunch of guys making 1 to 3 million. What do you think the Knicks plan is?
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
What free agent are they going to sign that's better than Amare anyways?
Because there will be only three of them: Lebron, Wade, and Bosh. Lebron is either resigning with the Cavs or headed to New York. Now that Miami is good again, I don’t see why he would leave Miami. Bosh is probably better than Amare, but he’s not so much better that you should dump Amare for cap space with no idea of whether you can sign Bosh or not.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
you have a point
but there are a lot of free agents. They could get Dirk, Yao and Nash. Or Joe Johnson, Tyson Chandler and Hedo Turkgolu. They are heading for a divorce with Amare anyway. They might as well get as much as they can without losing their future flexibility.
If you see the trades posted above, most have the Suns accepting a guy on a rookie contract and cap space. So it seems they would target a young player on a good contract and cap space. Cap space alone probably wouldn’t be enough. But they could accelerate their savings and get expiring this year and make a play for 2009 free agents as well. So cap space I think will be a part of any deal.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 4:01 PM CST up reply actions
are you replying to me? Because I was talking about PHX.
reading comprehension my friend
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 5, 2009 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
Most of the trades posted above are ludicrously one-sided
And I understand why (hey, this is a Bulls blog), but I’m just saying that the Suns aren’t just going to give him away. If the Bulls aren’t going to give up Deng, other teams will be able to make better offers.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
One sided?
Do you think offering Deng (on of our best players), Tyrus (a good prospect that is playing well lately), Gooden (not a big expiring contract, but a nice one) and, say, Thabo (another good prospect) for Amare and, say, Barbosa is one sided? I see there a great deal
depends how much they value cap flexibility relative to Deng
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly Amare is cap space
his contract is up next year. They don’t need the space.
I don't think they get under
even if Amare was traded for expiring this season anyway.
So maybe ‘expiring’ can still mean ‘by 2010’. But they could value that space in the form of other players as opposed to Amare as some convoluted ‘addition by subtraction’ reasoning.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 4:04 PM CST up reply actions
Bosh for Amare straight up?
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
Hinrich Deng Noah and two first rounders for Amare and Grant Hill
trade machine gave it the green light
CHI rotation
PG:Rose/Gordon
SG:Gordon/Thabo
SF:Hill/Thabo
PF:TT/Noah
C:Amare/Noah
PHO rotation
PG:Nash/Hinrich
SG:Richardson/Barbosa
SF:Deng/Barnes
PF:Noah/Lopez
C:Shaq/Lopez/Noah
lemme know what you think
missed the first couple months of the season?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
Why cant he handle the point for 5-10 mpg?
as long as it isnt during a crucial point in the game
by drosekillsall on Feb 5, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions
oh im sure he can handle it....
hell i could handle being out there for 5 to 10 min running the point…dont mean i dont suck at and wouldnt suck at it…….he’s a horrible ball handler…and he’s a player that needs to shoot….its what he does……
Except for the passing, you're right.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Well, and all the other things, but eh ... mere details.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
is Noah that good?
I thought Noah gets too tired just playing with one team ;)
by NY Chicago Fan on Feb 5, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions
My proposal is as follows
Phx gets another PG, a young forward, another young player and a Bulls draft pick(?) with expiring money in the deal.
Phi gets a temporary PF replacement, and a combo guard that can allow Iggy to handle the ball more.
Chi gets Amare, plus filler.
Alternate deal
Bulls receive Grant Hill, Amare.
Phx receives Tyrus, Deng, Andre Miller, Royal Ivey.
Phi receives Gooden, Barbosa.
i feel deng is not going anywhere....
remember deng was the “reason” we didnt trade for kobe…..and as far as having amare here….i dont like the idea….Thomas has looked great…a younger version of amare….i really think he will be just as good but without the injury history … so why give up on him now…somebody mentioned that this team can be an elite team within a few years if we keep our pieces together, and i completely agree…. look at the progress each individual player has made since the beginning of the season. Mostly TT and Noah…. unless LBJ or or howard become available, i say we keep our pieces….we can still move some pieces to go after a big free agent in 2010 anyways…and who wouldnt like to come play with this group of young talent we have now…
KOBE WOULD HAVE VETOED ANY TRADE INVOLVING DENG
STOP TALKING ABOUT IT!
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
We're backing up guys w/ colors now?
Any not even primary ones??
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
Amare and a bulked-up Noah
makes a lot of sense at the 4/5. Then throw shitloads of money at D’Antoni!!!
re: Noah
right, he’d still need to have a unclownish offseason and get stronger. I think he will.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
Tyrus took his first summer off
and he still needs at least one more good off season to handle the bigger fours
D'Antoni
We should have given him the keys to the franchise this summer.
by drosekillsall on Feb 5, 2009 4:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
much better
to watch the Bulls lose int he regular season and not make the playoffs?
Let's add Utah to the mix
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=17111981245630323423336172732381703434&teams=2626212142644214&te=&cash=
It’s a pretty big swap but I think it makes a lot of people happy.
Why would Utah do this?
I can see them getting rid of either AK47 or Boozer (to clear room to sign Millsap), but I don’t see them trading both. Then they’re left with Millsap (who they’re forced to sign) and Okur as their frontcourt, which is fine as it is but leaves them with absolutely no depth.
Plus, Kirk mucks up their rotation. Much like us, they’ve got their starting PG.
Miami might be the most realistic trading partner for Phoenix
At least if the Suns are interested in cap room. They can offer Beasley, Haslem, and Mark Blount for Stoudemire. Haslem and Blount come off the books in 2010. That’s better than anything the Bulls can offer.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
Hmmm
I don’t know, Big D. I don’t see Miami parting with Beasley, and Deng might be better that all of those players. A package involving Tyrus and Deng, to my way of thinking, would be more valuable.
Additionally, how would Beasley fit, even were Miami willing to part with him? He’s a guy that demands shots, the ball, and that’s exactly the problem they have right now with Stat. In a way, I think Tyrus’ low demand on offense would be an attraction to them.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Feb 5, 2009 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah
I don’t know I think Phx was ready to deal Marion no matter what….
And I think Miami benefits greatly having Stoudemire….even if it’s Marion and Beasley and x for Amar’e, I don’t think Marion kept the doors open to come back.
Agree with it on paper though, and maybe agree if Phx is fine to let the season go down the tubes (I am presuming the tensions between Marion and Nash are there, I could be wrong)….
Who knows though, Phx is a pretty different team now (no Bell, no Diaw, no Stat in this trade….we’ll just see if that trade was more bc Phx mgmt and Marion didn’t get along….which is what I would presume.
Phoenix would definitely takte that deal
Simply because it would give them a much younger version of Stoudemire in Beasley. He could be nasty next to Shaq and it would give him more of a chance to be a number one option. I cant see Miami doing it though.
I don't know
They spent most of their time before the draft desperately trying to trade the #2 pick, and they’ve been bringing Beasley off the bench, so I can’t imagine they’re that in love with him. It would leave Miami a bit thin up front, but Wade and Stoudemire would be a scary combination in the East. Miami needs to convince Wade to resign with them, and that trade would help.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
Then they'd have two major free agents in 2010.
That would be a big, nervous summer for Miami. But yeah, Wade/Amare would be awesome. Just like Rose/Amare. :)
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Feb 5, 2009 4:31 PM CST up reply actions
If I was John Paxson AND JR(i.e. running this business like the Chicago Bulls instead of the Memphis Grizzlies)
I’d get a conference call with Robert Sarver and Steve Kerr and offer Tyrus, Larry Hughes, a 1st rounder or two, and like $15+mil in cash and expect to make all that cash back by the end of next season.
So what's the concensus, folks...
Could we build a championship team around Rose and Amare?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
yes
well, contending team. LeBron probably wins the next 7 championships.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 5, 2009 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
LeBron might be God taking payment for Jordan.
This must be what the Sonics/Knicks/Jazz/Blazers/Rockets felt like in the 90s.
Except those teams were good. The Bulls aren't yet. :-)
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 5, 2009 4:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I knew somebody was going to bring that retort.
Ok, fine. “This must be what the Cavs/Bullets/Hawks/Hornets/Clippers felt like in the 90s.”
How dare you destroy the memories
Of Juwan Howard, Calbert Cheaney, Mark Price, Larry Nance, and all those other lovable losers by grouping them with the Clippers!
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 5, 2009 6:55 PM CST up reply actions
Eh
there are plenty of players who’ve put up enormous stats their whole life and never won anything. I’m not ready to concede the next decade to Lebron. Injuries, complacency, poor supporting cast…and frankly, luck…all play a role.
Get Amare. Don’t care what it takes. Then you’ve got Amare and Rose in 2010, when Wade becomes a free agent.
Chicago looks pretty good, at that point, no?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Feb 5, 2009 4:59 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, that would be sweet.
Amare: $19M
Wade: $19M
Rose: $5.5M
Deng/Thomas: $7M-11M (depending on who we have after trade and, if Tyrus, what his extension is)
Noah: $3
That’s $53M-58M for five players, three of whom would need lots and lots of touches (Rose, Wade, Amare). If we haven’t unloaded Kirk, add $9M. Add ~$7M for Noc if ditto. Let’s be optimistic and say we unload Kirk for mostly expiring stuff (or cheap contracts to fill out the roster). So add Noc. Now we’ve got $60-65M for six players. This would leave us about $10M-7M, roughly, to get the roster up to 15.
Even if my numbers are a little off, my point is: if we trade for Amare and resign him in 2010, he’s the only big-money FA we’re getting.
Hold up there,
I was assuming that we would trade Deng and Tyrus for Amare. I don’t see us getting him without giving them up. That’s the only way we could have a Rose/Wade/STAT nucleus.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Feb 5, 2009 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
JR claims he will go into Luxury Tax for a contender.
Rose, Wade, Deng, Stat and Noah should require him to make good on his statements.
Do other players like Amare?
Is that enough to get them to come here even if we have Amare?
I’d think Bosh is a much more likely player to bring free agents to Chicago. He’s affable, players like him, he’ll play defense, and he’s coachable.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
He's totally available.
I hate Steve A. Smith, but I think he’s right on this one. There’s wiggle room around the denials issued by the GM and Bosh, and as Smith pointed out in response, every big name player from Toronto about whom there were rumors of defection denied wanting to leave before bolting.
Steven A Smith never said Bosh was available
he said Bosh told the Raptors he wasn’t resigning. If that rumor is true, Toronto is most likely taking another year to build something respectable for Bosh. So you’re assuming a trade when Bosh has not been put on the market.
I am Offering.....
Deng Or Thomas, Noah and/or Sefolosha, and Gooden(expiring Contract). Basically any combination Not involving Deng and Thomas. Take that back I am offering Deng and Thomas, Rose and Amare is going to be nasty
I say give em everyone
Stat and Rose would be a good look for the rest of my life
"Kiss my Converse!" - Sho'nuff
On 2nd thought
if we can’t land Stat with all our “trade assets”..im destroying my Paxon card and joining the “I hate Pax” bandwagon
"Kiss my Converse!" - Sho'nuff
You guys are fuckin ridiculous
You wanna trade everyone for a player another team is looking to trade? OMG!! Look, you give them a young player and some expiring contracts plus draft picks like they want. You don’t overpay. Haven’t the trades for KG and Ray Allen and Pau Gasol taught you anything?
Tyrus Thomas, Thabo Sefoosha, and Drew Gooden plus a draft pick gives them what they want.
I don't think they really wanna trade him
They just realize the only way he would get them what they want is if they trade him in his prime.
Ray Allen coming off 2 ankle surgeries
And they gave up a top 5 pick for him. There was a lot of negative reaction to that trade. It was only the KG deal that made the Allen trade a good one.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 5, 2009 6:56 PM CST up reply actions
I'd take Jefferson over KG right now.
KG is getting older, AJ is getting better.
Yeah, but I'd take a championship over Jefferson.
It’s not all about stats. Celts don’t win last year w/out Garnett.
by arjoseph on Feb 5, 2009 7:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Um I only want to keep Rose + Deng, everyone else is tradeable.
However, Deng is a BYC player and Gordon can’t be traded without his consent.
Use the tools at your disposal. Young players playing big (Thomas or Noah) and expiring contracts! That’s what they want. Stop giving away assets when you don’t have to.
Umm so what happens
when other teams offer more? Do you just let the deal pass you by?
Phoenix wants to win now. They don’t want just expirings and young players.
Offer more?
You can’t trade Deng due to his BYC. It’s virtually impossible. You’ll be sending out way more than you get in. Also, with the economy the way it is the Bulls are in a prime position with TT playing well and also having Hinrich available if need be.
Did the Celts get KG for a better deal? Nope. Did the Grizzlies get Gasol for a better deal? Nope.
Ummm... really?
Did you really just say type that? Really?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Amare is a great offensive player but not a franchise player. Rose and Amare doesn’t make a championship team. Dude plays no D at all and is a below average rebounder for his height. Great scorer but I don’t see him as a cog on a championship team.
I’d rather have Bosh anyday. Scores just as well as Amare, rebounds better, better passer, more of a team player….and younger too.
Everyone thinks Bosh would be better
Well I mean mostly everyone…
But Bosh isn’t openly available right now
by Option27 on Feb 5, 2009 7:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
But that doesn't mean he isn't available
The problem is that Pax doesn’t seem to care about Bosh or Amare, or any other superstar. Only about getting rid of Hughes. As far as I’m concern, Hughes can be on this team until 2010. Just keep him in the inactive list and make a damm trade
Big names like that
Aren’t available until it’s reported that they are.
Usually you’ll hear something along the lines of, “No comment” when asked about the rumors.
They are denying it hardcore
They have to do that
Imagine what could hapen if they said that Bosh is on the block. Fans would be furious. Bosh is really the only player that Toronto fans care about. He’s their superstar. So, they will try to deny all the rumours. If they end up losing him only in 2010, better. Colangelo can say: well, another team, from a big market, had more to offer than we had…
Toronto should take the route the Lakers did.
And that’s don’t give up. They tiried to make Kobe happy. If they did cave in it would be when they had no choice. And now Kobe is happy and they should be competitive for years to come.
Yes the Toronto Raptors have the history
but Colangelo is running the show now. And I don’t see him caving in. I see him making Bosh happy as much as he can.
He did say he wants somebody to go with Rose
Bosh and Amare seem like the only two players to fit that. I hope he offers Toronto first, if they don’t budge then,Pheonix:
Deng,Gooden,Gordon,Simmons for Amare, Barbosa, 1st round pick, and two other players to make the numbers match or Deng,Ben, 1st round pick for Chris Bosh
Either Pheonix or Toronto would be getting to young talented veterans and a 1st round pick. Pheonix would be getting the young talented piece the perferable forwand in Luol and the expiring contracts. Amare has the ability to defend and he will. And I think Ben would rather earn a contract somewhere else so I see him accepting see trades atleast some trades.
by chi on Feb 5, 2009 8:52 PM CST up reply actions
I doubt it ever happens....
But it’s fun to dream. I think Pax should try and hold strong and not give up Tyrus. Kerr has said they want young players, expiring contracts and picks. So the Bulls could offer there 1st rounder, top 3 protected this year, Noah, Thabo, Gooden, and Ruffin. Both Gooden and Ruffin come off the books this year. Noah and Thabo are both young rotation players. And the first rounder will be in the top 20 no matter what, if not a late lottery pick. I don’t think there are too many teams that can match that. That gives the Suns everything they want, plus the Bulls can start Rose, Gordon, Deng, Tyrus, and Amare. I don’t think any trade will happen, but I’d love to see it, no matter who they give up, even if it includes tyrus.
"Everyone is on the table but Nash," one executive said.
I would go after Richardson as well. IF we get Richarson and/or AS without giving up Rose then we would be a great team. Imagine a lineup with Richardson, Rose, and AS.
Damn
Looks as if Bosh is on his way to Phoenix.
A deal involving Bosh is probably much more attractive to Phoenix than anything we can offer them.
And I guarantee you that if Amare gets traded to Toronto he’ll rue the day he started complaining about being in Phoenix.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 5, 2009 10:23 PM CST reply actions
where did you see that?
link plz
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Oh. Good.
I assumed “looks as if” meant some kind of report.
But I doubt this happens. I simply don’t see Bosh being made available…and almost certainly not for a power forward who will almost certainly leave them in 2010.
In other words, from my way of thinking, while Bosh might leave them, Amare almost certainly would. I just don’t see Toronto making that deal.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Agreed.
They’re not going to go “Oh no, our PF might be leaving! Let’s replace him with someone who’s [IMHO] worse, and who will DEFINITELY leave!”
Weee.
But who knows, maybe the Suns throw in 7 first round picks.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
We don't know this for sure.
Despite being perhaps the 3rd most physically gifted player in the league (LeBron James and Dwight Howard are undeniably 1 and 2 in that category), IMO Stoudemire has never played at the level he should…and that is amazing seeing as though he’s been a serious offensive force for years now. But who knows what his real motivation is? Does Stoudemire really care to win now and wants to go to a team where he can contend for a championship or is winning a scoring title and being glorified as “the man” the most important thing to him? He’d definitely do that in Toronto or Chicago for that matter (I can’t imagine anyone the Bulls would have outscoring him on a nightly basis). Remember, nobody thought Joe Johnson would bolt Phoenix for Atlanta. If anybody sucked, the Hawks sucked. But he bolted….to sign a long term deal before knowing anything about the team. And guys despite the fact that it’s cold, word is that Toronto is not the worst place to be in the NBA by a longshot (but you do have the money issue from what I understand and that can be a big deal).
So depending on what it is he really wants Toronto is an option. But the more I hear and read about it the more it looks like Toronto is gonna lose out on stars….again.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 6, 2009 7:50 AM CST up reply actions
What does K.C. think!?
The Stoudemire and Bosh situations will be fascinating to watch between now and the Feb. 19 trade deadline. If someone told me that one would be moved for sure, my money would be on Stoudemire. The intriguing element to the recent excellent analysis piece by Paul Coro, the Suns’ beat writer for the Arizona Republic, is that those thoughts about moving Stoudemire now to maximize value were his but I have to believe nobody from the organization frowned upon him writing them. Now that’s not to say Stoudemire will be moved, just that there’s now the impression around the league that it could happen. And if it does, the Bulls would definitely have to consider it strongly. Yahoo! Sports reported Thursday that the Suns are listening to proposals and their wish list — expiring contracts, young talent, draft picks — sound like the Bulls’ laundry list of what they can offer. As fun as it would be to pair Rose and Stoudemire together, there are plenty of concerns surrounding Stoudemire too. He would need a huge extension, making this your one big move to lock in on and move forward. He’s not a very interested defender. And he’s had microfracture surgery. That’s why Paxson makes the big bucks and I answer Q&As.
How about Marc Stein?!
1. Can we really expect an Amare Stoudemire trade in the next two weeks?
Sources say it’ll happen in-season only if the Suns can find a deal that delivers a mixture of top young talent and payroll relief. Which won’t be easy.
Two examples (stress examples) of what we’re talking about: Stoudemire to Portland for Travis Outlaw, Jerryd Bayless, draft considerations and Raef LaFrentz’s expiring contract is the first, based on the assumption that the Blazers will not be surrendering LaMarcus Aldridge even for Stoudemire, followed by Stoudemire to Chicago for Joakim Noah, Tyrus Thomas, draft considerations and Drew Gooden’s expiring contract.
We repeat: These are not known to be active trade discussions. Although things could certainly change as the deadline gets closer, sources with knowledge of the Blazers’ thinking and the Bulls’ thinking maintain that (A) Portland has been unwilling to include Bayless in any proposed deal this season and that (B) Chicago is growing increasingly reluctant to part with its best youngsters after some promising play since team chairman Jerry Reinsdorf’s recent blast that the Bulls’ first half was “a disaster.”
Also this tidbit
4. Portland is naturally making calls to see what it can fetch with its LaFrentz chip, but it appears that there’s a much better chance that Kings swingman John Salmons will wind up with the Blazers — who have inquired about Salmons — than that Chicago’s Luol Deng will.
Deng is said to be one of Blazers general manager Kevin Pritchard’s all-time favorites, but sources say Deng’s strong play over the past month-plus after a slow start makes him the closest thing to prized rookie Derrick Rose on Chicago’s list of untouchables. (It’s also true that dealing Deng before the summertime, even if Chicago wanted to, is difficult because of base-year-compensation restrictions.)
Gooden, Larry Hughes, maybe Thabo Sefolosha … those are the players Chicago is looking to move.
It appears that, in the Bulls’ view, Noah, Thomas and Kirk Hinrich — whose presence since returning from a thumb injury has noticeably helped Rose — are more valuable than they were when the season started. And let’s face it: Chicago just isn’t a trigger-pulling team, whether that’s because of general manager John Paxson’s reluctance or Reinsdorf’s. Or both.
Trade scenarios involving Deng, Ben Gordon, Hinrich … we’ve been hearing them for years. The Bulls might have the pieces to get into the Stoudemire bidding and would certainly appeal to the Suns as a trading partner because they’re in the East, but history says they won’t.
It's really depressing when your team is constantly mentioned as having the pieces
to potentially make a deal, but the presumption is that your GM just doesn’t have the nerve to pull the trigger. Sigh.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 6, 2009 1:34 AM CST up reply actions
See why all this talk about trade scenarios is useless
Pax will never trade his “babies”… Not even for a superstar :(
The VERY LAST thing I wanted to see was the following:
"(B) Chicago is growing increasingly reluctant to part with its best youngsters after some promising play since team chairman Jerry Reinsdorf’s recent blast that the Bulls’ first half was "a disaster."
Are you serious? I know I’ve called Amare an underachiever at times but make no mistake about it. He is the sort of elite talent that really helps make you a factor in this league. But to hear that we are reluctant to part with our best youngsters after some promising play is just killing me!!! I guess we’ll just have to wait and see.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 6, 2009 7:29 AM CST up reply actions
Call me crazy but I am actually seeing the type of play out of the young guys that make me feel hopeful.
Look Stoudamire is great but he doesn’t play a lick of Defense. You can make a strong argument that TT is the best shot blocker in basketball. He’s 22 and he’s gaining confidence in his game. There’s a small possibility that TT could be a more dynamic player in 3 years than Stoudamire. I know I know, I’m crazy. But think about it.
You're not crazy
I don’t think Tyrus has that far to go to approach Amare’s offensive talents, but I do think Amare has a long way to go to come close to Tyruses defensive talents.
Amare will probably be the Vince Carter of his era. A spectacular offensive talent that just won’t contribute on the defensive end of the court. They think of “getting stops” as scoring back.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Feb 6, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with you both.
Maybe I went a bit overboard in my comment. What I was pointing at was the conservative nature of John Paxson. I like Tyrus Thomas and I feel he’ll be one hell of a player. I’ve always felt he’s a bit like a bigger version of Shawn Marion. I guess i’m still stuck on the feeling that some players are being held back in our system. I despised Skiles for yanking him everytime he made a mistake instead of letting him grow. He’s definitely been better though.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 6, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Lol
Didn’t I make a post about this… With more confidence in his game and more bulk, in coming years, I think he can average 22 10. He is averaging 10 and 5 this year in 24 minutes. When he’s gets more awareness, why can’t he be Amare like. He can dunk with the best of them, a good shot blocker, he is starting to hit his jumpers, and starting to put it on the floor and get to the rim. He also does rebound good despite what some people may think, you want him to get 10 rebounds a game and when he doesn’t, you say he’s inconsisent. If you watch the games, vdn takes him out at crucial parts of the game, it’s hard to contribute like that. I honestly think Tyrus, Noah, and Rose will show how good they can really be in the second half of the season and against some very good teams.
Cool, thanks.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
I've been trying to figure out a somewhat reasonable deal for the Bulls and Suns
And I just can’t get there. The Bulls just don’t have enough cap space, I think, or enough big time players to give up.
- I don’t think I give up Deng for Amare. Deng is signed up reasonably and is a reasonably sure thing. Amare is a high risk acquisition for several reasons.
- This is very difficult because the Bulls can’t make a trade that gets the Suns under the luxury tax without putting themselves over it. I don’t think they’d be willing to do that. Perhaps they could by getting a third team involved, but that, of course, is getting things complicated. That’s why I think some other team will be able to make an offer the Suns prefer.
- I think if the Suns were going to bite, the Bulls have to offer a combination of things. Some financial relief, some “win now” talent, and some “prospects”. As general outlines of a deal, I’d think:
1. The Bulls would need to include Gooden for cap relief purposes, and because he’d be useful for the Suns in the short-run.
2. Tyrus seems like the sort of prospect you’d want to get back if you’re trading Amare, though maybe not the sure thing that Millsap or Aldridge or Bargnani or someone like that would be.
3. If the Suns are interested in dealing with the Bulls, perhaps they’d be interested in Kirk. With Nash obviously slowing down and on a deal the Suns can opt out of next year, perhaps they look for a replacement. And Kirk is a guy who could play next to Nash some.
4. If I were the Suns, I’d be looking to move JRich or Barbosa in an attempt to clear the decks and get well under the cap. The Bulls could potentially give them more cap savings by taking back one of those players. Doing so, of course, vastly complicates the Bulls lives unless they trade Gordon too.
5. And I don’t see why the Suns would want Gordon because unless they get under the cap by letting Nash walk (not happening… they’d trade him first, I think), there’s no room to sign Gordon. And what if they did? He’d basically just be replacing Barbosa. Maybe a bit better, but pretty similar. And I don’t see why Gordon consents to being trading him to a team he obviously can’t re-sign with. So you can’t offer him just to increase the Suns’ cap flexibility.
The best I can come up with doesn’t satisfy these requirements.
Bulls trade Gooden, Hinrich, Thomas and a 1st rounder
Bulls get Amare, Barbosa
This is salary neutral for this year, so the Bulls don’t go over the LT. The Suns knock $8.7M or so off of next year’s cap. However, they’re currently projected at $14.5M over next year’s cap, so this doesn’t really do much for them except get them under the LT. The Bulls make for an even bigger mess by replacing Hinrich, who at least complements Gordon fairly well, with Barbosa, who’s a mutually exclusive slightly lesser clone. That seems disastrous, and Gordon would certainly walk for nothing at the end of the year. I’m not a “must keep Gordon at all costs” guy, but I think it’s a huge waste to let a talented player walk for nothing.
Perhaps he could be traded immediately in a seperate trade? Say to the Thunder for Nick Collison? Or my idea from a while back to offer him for Josh Childress in a sign and trade?
We end up with
1- Rose
2- Barbosa
3- Deng, Thabo
4- Amare, Noc
5- Noah, Collison
Interesting… I’m not sold on this team contending though.
The Suns end up with
1- Nash, Kirk
2- JRich, Kirk
3- Hill, JRich
4- Tyrus, Gooden
5- Shaq, Lopez
Meh… it doesn’t excite me, at least. I don’t think they win anything this year, and without major cap space next year, they’re stuck in mediocrity.
by Sports2 on Feb 6, 2009 8:49 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I guess I don't feel
a team with two allstars (Rose, Amare) a near all-star (deng), two good role-players at the two and five (Thabo, Noah), and a 6th man of the year (barbosa) would be anywhere near mediocre. The Bulls would be younger than Boston and more talented than Cleveland. I think that team contends for a long time, maybe even wins one, if Rose develops. At the very least it would be exciting as hell.
Why the anxiety?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Feb 6, 2009 8:54 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess I'm just not a huge fan of Amare
He just seems like such a huge risk. How many teams get anywhere when their two best players are shitty defenders?
Here’s the thing… every time you read “Amare”, replace it with “Zach Randolph” or “Shawn Kemp”. That’s what I think in my head. I picture a year or two of good play, and then something dramatic and disastrous.
well stop comparing him to other people and look at what he brings
and there is no guarantee that Rose will always be a bad defender. Any scenario with the Bulls making a run depends on Rose developing into an elite player.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 6, 2009 9:20 AM CST up reply actions
OK, How many teams get anywhere when their best interior player is a shitty defender?
Or their second best player.
Not just a shitty defender, but one who seems to be an unwilling defender.
And I could say the exact same things about Randolph. If I just looked at “what he brings”, I’d see pretty much the same sort of thing that Amare brings.
buts its not like the Suns were a terrible team
they were a 60 win team with Stoudemire. He has always played on winning teams. And if wasn’t for the Spurs, they probably would have went to at least 2 NBA Finals. You are killing Stoudemire for the Suns inability to beat the Spurs – including one series that was incredibly controversial. Yes you are going to have surround Stoudemire with elite defenders. But only 1 team, the Pistons, has won the finals in recent history without an elite scorer.
Randolph has never been as productive as Stoudemire. Stoudemire has made the All NBA 1st team once and second team twice, including last year. He has been to the all-star game 5 times. During this stretch where Amare is allegedly tanking it, he is averaging 20 pts and 10 rebounds. He has had PERs over 23 in 3 seasons, with a true shooting percentage over 60% in the last 4 out of 5 seasons. Randolph only has one season of PER over 20, and that was 22. Randolph hasn’t had a true shooting percentage over .537 since 2002-03. Stop comparing them, Amare is a far more productive player. Amare is not simply a good offensive player. He is elite. One of the top guys in the NBA.
You are always big on saying if we don’t have Gordon, who are we going to replace him with. Well if we don’t get Amare, who are we going to get who is better? What available player is a better fit. Or do you prefer going with the status quo?
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 6, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
Never once has Amare Stoudemire averaged 20 and 10.
And therein lies the problem. The real comparison isn’t Stoudemire and Randolph/Kemp, etc… The real comparison is Stoudemire and Duncan/Garnett since his #1 desire is to be “the man” and be compared to those guys. And I will pin a large portion of the losses to San Antonio on Stoudemire because although he averaged about 37 ppg 9 rpg the first time he played them, he gave up 27 ppg and 14 rpg to Duncan while going on to lose that series 4 – 1. The two years later Stoudemire averaged about 26 and 10 (finally a double double) while Duncan put up the same 27 ppg and 14 rpg.
Now is there anything wrong with 37 and 9 or 26 and 10? Absolutely not. Any of us would DIE to have a guy the Bulls capable of outputs like that. But both were in losing efforts to a guy (Tim Duncan) who by any measure is far superior to Stoudemire IMO. With all the natural ability Stoudemire has, he should only be compared to Duncan and Garnett and when you look at it in that light he falls miserably short of them both. The only thing that keeps Stoudemire from being in the class with KG/Duncan is what’s between his ears. If the day EVER comes that he takes his mind off leading the league in scoring and being the #1 option and focuses on becoming a great player at both ends and on the glass, I feel sorry for the other 29 teams in the NBA because then he’ll truly be a great player and his team will win time and time again. It would be a beautiful thing to see that happen in a Bulls unifom. But again, we have to see if he ever becomes the great player he should be.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 6, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
what?
“With all the natural ability Stoudemire has, he should only be compared to Duncan and Garnett and when you look at it in that light he falls miserably short of them both.”
That is just dumb. So the Bulls should wait until they get someone of Garnett or Duncan’s ability before making a move? Stoudemire should only be compared to the best power forward to ever play the game and KG,? Why? Are those guys available?
And why is Duncan’s numbers only attributable to Amare? Isn’t it a team game? The Suns decided not to double Duncan in that series. I wonder what Duncan would do to Noah and Tyrus if we didn’t double team him.
And he may never have averaged 20 and 10, but from the advanced stats i provided he is still one of the elite offensive power forwards in the league. I’m sorry, but your post was ridiculous. By your own post, Stoudemire is a step below only Duncan and Garnett. So the Bulls shouldn’t try to get a guy that good, because he isn’t as good as Duncan or Garnett?
How long are you going to wait for the perfect deal to come along?
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 6, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Frankly I'm not sure what you disagree with that I've said
It mostly seems to be you elevating semantics to something important because you perceive yourself as the defender of all things Tyrus and if someone says something unflattering about him, you’ve got to attack without stopping to consider how much you really agree or disagree with the point.
As far as actual meaningful disagreement over Tyrus from the Suns perspective, I don’t think you have much.
Lets put it this way. Suppose the Blazers offer Aldridge+expirings. The Bulls offer Tyrus+expirings. Who gets Amare?
Portland probably. I'm not arguing that at all.
If you differ on Thomas’s potential, fine.
I might be arguing semantics, but let me ask you this: If you’re the Suns, and you think Thomas has been stymied in Chicago and you can coach him and turn him around, thus, you think he’s a more valuable piece than Aldridge, why does it matter that you’re unsure right now how much you’re going to offer him an extension?
As I’ve stated, I don’t think under-offering an extension and going into RFA is any sort of bad thing. It happens quite often. If the Suns think Thomas has the higher potential and they have the ability to coach him into some sort of really good player, I don’t see how some magical extra year would change their mind.
By this point, if you’ve done your scouting, aren’t you in one or two main camps: A) Thomas is an average to above-average defender with little hope of improving his offensive game or B) Thomas still has good room to grow (to varying degrees) and just needs a “change of scenery”.
If you’re in the first, you don’t trade for him. If you’re in the second, and you don’t think that “room to grow” surpasses Aldridge, you don’t trade for him. If you’re in the second, but think he has the potential to be star, you trade for him. I don’t see how the contract years matter.
If you’re trading a star for a prospect, you trade for the guy who you think is going to be the best player. You don’t worry about the contract situation.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
That last line is, I think, the only point I've argued with you in this thead.
I might disagree with you on who the “best player” is (Noah, Thomas, Aldridge, whomever), but if you’re trading a start for draft picks, expiring contracts and a young player of the future, I don’t think the contract situation should be taken into consideration.
You take the player that your scouting and development thinks will end up being the best player (with your own coaching staff, of course). I fail to see how anything else really matters.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
You don't think contract situation should be taken into consideration?
OK, we disagree about that, and it’s a relevant point. I can’t imagine any NBA team simply consciously ignores contractual status when they’re considering a trade. Perhaps they do, but when success and failure is so very often based on contract decisions, that seems pretty unwise.
Hell, you’re saying above that contract status matters when it comes to Amare. He’s an “expiring contract”, or at least has the option to be one and done, and you’re rightly concerned about whether he’ll leave. You’re also rightly concerned, I think, about whether he’ll live up to his salary demands.
Remember that supposedly what the Suns are asking for in trading Amare is a quality young player and financial relief. Thus, it’s pretty obviously relevant to the Suns whether that young player they get is going to be cheap for one year or two years or more.
So you're arguing....
…that even if they think Thomas will be the better player, that they shouldn’t trade for him because they can’t put a perfect monetary value on him right now? You’re right, I don’t agree with that.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
That's ok, because I'm not arguing that
Viva la Nuance!
by Sports2 on Feb 6, 2009 6:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought you said you soured against him pretty strongly.
I’m seriously asking.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Besides, if that's the case, then you don't trade for him.
But that’s based on TALENT and potential, not his contract situation.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Anyway, we can stop here if you want to make one last point.
I think you’re smarter than me, and I thought I’ve been civil. I think smart people can disagree (although, you obviously think I’m a moron, so whatever). Either we’re having a miscommunication problem where you’re not making your point clear to me, or I’m not making mine clear to you. Or we’re just be stubborn. Or I’m being an idiot. Sorry for making you discuss this with me.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Dude... I think you're a smart guy
but you started out by (rudely) referencing that argument we had a few weeks ago over the value of offensive vs. defensive rebounding. That doesn’t exactly put me in the mood to extend you any extra courtesies.
My fault.
But that had absolutely nothing to do with you. That was about this statement and discussion*—pure and simple and 100%. I had absolutely no thought about our previous discussion**.
*by the way, for anyone who cares, I view “arguments” as merely statements and discussions; not everything is confrontational for confrontational purposes. For some reason, that’s how I learn, by aggressively questioning assumptions made by others.
**when I just read that, a feeling of “holy shit! where?!?! what?!?! how the—-?!?!” came over me. i haven’t thought about that discussion since the last statement made, let alone at the beginning of this discussion.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Funny,
but I don’t see Amare as a bad man-to-man defender. He doesn’t block shots, but I feel like he can at least contain his matchup with size and strength. I see him more as a defensive nonentity – not a liability like Derrick (at this point) or Randolph.
But your injury concerns are legit.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
He definitely has the ability to do pretty much...
…anything he wants to do defensively. He’s also a weak rebounder given his physical tools and skill set. It’s just a matter of him wanting to be complete. When he decides he wants to be, then he’ll find that he’s been the only thing standing in his way this whole time.
I remember when he was a rookie and had a monster game against Kevin Garnett. I remember thinking this guy is gonna be big trouble. Maybe the best PF in the game in a few years. He’s been damn good, but he stil has another step to take. But this step is a part of the maturation process.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 6, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
I see him as a Larry Hughes-esque defender
Hughes can be a good defender when he’s motivated to be. He’s got all the tools. I think when he sets his mind to it, he’s actually pretty good.
I see Amare has much like that. If he’s up for the challenge, I think he can go out there and go toe to toe with anyone.
If, for whatever reason, he just prefers not to at the moment, he’s a trainwreck. Perhaps I’m overboard in it, but I’ll call it the D’Antoni effect. Looking at the Knicks, it’s obvious he’s got them playing well above their talent level, and he’s one of those rare guys who can get most folks to buy in to what he wants them to do.
So when I apply that to Amare, I think what he’d look like on the Bulls is something closer to the frustrating player we’ve seen this season, not the guy we saw under D’Antoni.
That’s not just true of Amare… I think it’s true of Nash as well. It doesn’t make them garbage, but I think the D’Antoni effect probably needs to be considered too.
I think theres definitely some truth to that
I also think tho, that a move to Chi might help him in a lot of ways. Its a bigger market, he is much more the man here then in PHX. We can push the pace, run a lot of the offense thru him, design more of it around him. (How much do you trust VDN or Amare’s new coach heh).
Definitely see Amare as the type of guy where the rest of his game feeds off being involved in certain ways. Think Lu once he finally started slashing, etc after returning his defense, rebounding, jumpshooting, etc pretty much every aspect of his game improved too. Now think of the game we played against the Suns, Amare 1 shot in the 2nd half? He isnt trying for them, but not sure theyre trying for him much either. His PER is certainly much more “star” quality at C then PF(roughly when Shaq isnt in). All tho you like your MAX type players to play that way regardless.
Why not trade Hinrich for Brad Miller or Hughes for Brad Miller...
and the include Miller in a package to get Stoudemire? Well, with Gooden and Miller, they could save money this year and the next… But not sure if this works…
I find your ideas intruiging and wish to subscribe to your newsletter
Love the idea of packing Hinrich, I think the Suns would go for that.
As you’ve pointed out, it can’t be just about paring salary, they want to try and win too. Adding a real backup point to Nash can help them immediately, and they can frame Amare-for-Gooden/Thomas as some sort of ‘addition by subtraction’ logic. Plus I think Tyrus does really well alongside Shaq.
I’d still hold out hope to keep Gordon. Barbosa may be a clone in that he’s a scorer, but he could be that 6th man that ‘accepts it’ the way Sam Smith always dreams about at night. Rose/Gordon/Barbosa wouldn’t be the best complements to eachother but how can you find a good replacement? Of course their ‘09 payroll is hemorrhaging at this point, which is the real reason Gordon walks. But they’d still have a chance dealing Noc or Hughes to get another big and to free up room.
But we disagree in the premise of getting Amare in the first place: I think he’s good enough (despite motivation and defensive issues) to be the type of guy where you get him first and fill out the rest later. Him+Rose is a very good start. If Amare fails to work out, then re-load again with Rose entering his prime.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 6, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
Don't get me wrong, I'd do that trade and take the chance on Amare.
I’m just not optimistic of it working out.
I also think there’s no way the Bulls would, especially with teams all screaming financial distress, that they’d be able to unload Hughes or Noc for the cap relief necessary to re-sign Gordon.
For that reason too, my idea of swapping Gordon for a big like Collison probably wouldn’t work either. Even letting Gooden walk, I think the Bulls would end up pretty close to the Tax.
Why
Wouldnt you trade Deng for Amare. The Bulls biggest weakness is a low post threat and the fact that none of our players are Superstars that demand respect from other teams and refs. Deng has never made an all star team Amare has several, we can replace Deng through different avenues, a player like Amare is much harder to get. I would offer Deng, Noah, Gooden, and a first round pick for Amare and see if they want anything else we have except Tyrus(I would try not to involve Tyrus and Deng together in the same deal) and Rose.
I'm with you Mustang
I think if you offer the Suns Deng, cap relief and draft picks, that may be a deal the Suns can’t refuse. Then if you’re the Bulls you can get from under that ridiculus contract of his. I think the thought of trading for Kirk should also be on the minds of the Suns because of Nash’s age and the fact that a couple of years ago people around the league thought Kirk could be a poor man’s Nash. I don’t but some did.
True. But If you get Stoudamire you're going to need someone who can defend the post. I'm one of those people
that believes that the Bulls biggest problem is not so much the lack of scoring in the post but the lack of toughness in the middle, especially when going to the bench players once Tyrus and Noah sit. If you have Amare, it would be nice to have the best shot blocker (which I think we can start now calling him) Tyrus Thomas, next to him.
I think you overpay
if its Deng and Noah or Thomas. I’ll trade Deng, Noah, or Thomas, but two of them in the same deal is giving up more than I want to give up.
If we had Gordon locked up I’d do a Deng and Gordon package deal in an instant.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Feb 6, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
deng and noah/thomas
is too much but deng/gordon isn’t?
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
I'm impartial
I think sending away Noah and Thomas would be a mistake without the right pieces in return. In the fanshot for Amare talk it was brought to my attention that we could just ask for Robin Lopez in return. I warm to trading Thomas and Noah in that scenario.
My whole point of emphasis is getting or keeping the players I think are the best complements to Derrick Rose.
Deng is one. But to get back Amare’s offense I wouldn’t miss Deng.
Gordon is one. But to get back any 3 point shooter is fine with me.
Thomas is one. But to get back a young, big body with good hands and defensive acumen, Robin Lopez would do.
My projected development is close to what New Orleans has done, but stressing defensive intensity so we play more uptempo. fewer half court possessions for us and many more for our opponents.
If we get Amare I think we’ll get forced into tons of half court sets.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
The thing you guys aren't getting is that you can't trade Deng this year!
He’s a BYC player and all sources are saying that Deng is close to being untouchable as Rose is. Tyrus makes the most sense because he is young and a prize for a team looking to reload like Phoenix. Add some expiring deals plus Kirk or Thabo and you got a real winner.
Any other discussion is pointless because Deng isn’t an option to be traded nor is Gordon.
Tyrus can't play
the Center position as well as Noah, so I would say keep Noah for Defense and have Amare for Offense. I think that would somewhat balance out Amare’s defensive issues + Lopez. For Phoenix, they get a defensive young PF, a hustler in Nocioni, an expiring contract with Gooden, and a unprtected first round pick 2009 and a sencond round pick in 2010.
If it is between Noah Thomas or Deng?
I am all for trading Thomas for Amare but I dont think that will be the Suns best offer. Deng is a young Foward that can contribute right away, Noah is young and talented but I would rather trade him and Deng before Thomas and Deng who both have a good chance of becoming real good. But if I am the Suns I look at the production of Deng, Noah and Thomas + their upside. Deng has by far the most production in his career and can get better playing with Steve Nash, Thomas can also benefit palying with Steve Nash but his production so far has been subpar untill this year and how much better do they think he can be. Noah is also Young and Talented on Defense which can help in their front court. If I am Kerr I look at it like this: Playing with Nash at pg. Deng at small Forward for the next 4-5 years = 17-20 points and 6-8 rebounds, + Noah 7-10 points 8-10 rebounds +1.5-2.5 blocks, a first round pick +Drew Goodens expiring contract OR tHOMAS = 10-13 POINTS A GAME + 8-9 rebounds a game plus 2 blocks + noah, + Goodens contract + First Round Pick. If I am Kerr I want the first trade but if I am Paxson I would do either but I would prefer the second trade
Let me preface by saying I don't think Gordon would consent to this trade, but...
Who the hell really knows? If he wants to, I think I’d pull the trigger on Gordon/Gooden/Tyrus/Kirk for Amare/JRich. I’d also offer to swap them Barbosa for Nocioni, which might make things more palatable for both teams and for Gordon to consent (For Phoenix you don’t have the BG/Barbosa duplication, for the Bulls, you turn Noc into a slightly better contract.)
1- Rose 36, Barbosa 12
2- JRich 36, Barbosa 12
3- Deng 24, JRich, Thabo 24
4- Amare 36, Deng 12, Simmons
5- Noah 30, Gray 18, Simmons?
But that leaves us really, really shallow up front. Not that I consider Noc quality depth.
For the Suns, they finish out the season with
1- Nash, Kirk
2- Gordon, Kirk
3- Hill, Noc
4- Tyrus, Gooden
5- Shaq, Lopez
Meh… still don’t see it. If they let Nash walk or get cap relief from trading Shaq, they might be able to bring back Gordon or sign someone else.
Only Problem is
If I am the Suns I want an expiring Contract or two So Gooden would be involved and Noce and Kirk would not be welcomed because they are overpayed for bench players. Hughes might be involved too because his deal comes of in 2010. and Deng or Tyrus and Noah + a draft pick. Remember Amare is a All Star not just a good player. They want CAP ROOM and TALENT.
That is why
I suggested Tyrus, Nocioni and Gooden for Stoudmire and Lopez. The Suns get Talent in Tyrus, Nocioni for his energy, and Gooden’s expiring contract and the draft picks. Suns are not only looking for Talent but Defense as well. With this trade I think both the Suns and the Bulls get better.
The Bulls are not known for developing players so to keep Tyrus it would be pointless.
I don’t think Paxson is going to move Hinrich until Gordon figures out where he is going to play next season.
There's a quote in the fanshot fro Amare
from JA Adande saying his sources are telling him this Amare spec is primarily “financial”.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
My trade....
of Deng and Noah gives the Suns defense in Noah and young talent in Deng plus Gooden’s contract plus draft picks. I would be glad if the Suns want to make Tyrus the main piece of the deal. if we can have Deng and Amare + Rose we are a top five team in the east. I just dont think Tyrus has enough talent to get Amare by himself., they still would want Deng. If Portland supposedly wanted Deng for Bayless and Outlaw I think the Suns would make Deng the Starting point of any deal and try to make Tyrus and Noah as extra pieces. Of Noah and Tyrus I would rather give up Noah and Put Tyrus and Amare in our front court and see what happens. Noah is good on defense but Tyrus has more overall talent right now.
If they want Deng
then I think it would have to pass because we would be in the same position that we are in now because as of late Deng and Amare have similar stats. I think that the Suns wouldn’t want Deng because they already have Jason Richardson and Grant Hill as their G/F.
Also according to the Rumor they want a PF in return and sending them Noah & Deng doesn’t address that it just overloads them in the G/F positions.
Similar stats??
Do you realize that Deng is averaging about 18 or 19 pts and 8 rebounds and he’s playing as well as he has in 2 years while Stoudemire is averaging a few more points and about a board more and is playing his worst ball in quite some time?
I’m feeling Deng lately. I’m really liking this new, assertive Deng since coming back from injury. But please don’t be seduced into thinking he’s as valuable an asset right now as Stoudemire is.
Now you may be right about them not wanting/needing Deng because of their SF situation, but there is a world of difference in the talent level of Deng and Stoudemire.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 6, 2009 1:44 PM CST up reply actions
Like I said as of late
similar stats and as you stated Deng 18 or 19 pts and 8 rebounds vs Stoudmire 20 and 9. I’m not saying that Deng is more valuable I just don’t think it would make us that much better unless other trades are made to fill the SF position.
At the same time having Stoudmire and Rose would attract 2010 talent to fill some voids.
That is why I said I think and thats why I’m not the GM. Good luck Pax.
Still
Deng is Young and Hill is old and will be gone after this year,he already was coming off the bench in favor of Matt Barnes. The report said a young foward it did not specify position. if they will take Deng and Npah I would do it because Amare is more assertive and more dominant than Deng on the offensive end. The Reason he is not thriving with the Suns is because Shaq needs shots, J-Rich needs shots and Barbosa needs shots and Nash. I think he would get way more opportunities with the Bulls and would be our first option. Amare still has managed to make the All Star Team with Shaq and others getting shots this year. I think the Bulls would be a lot like the Suns when they had AMARE MARION Nash(Rose) Bell(Thabo) Johnson(Gordon). The Bulls would be able to run and use their athleticism to shut down teams on defense.
I could see the
Bulls taking their sweet time getting this deal done and when it’s too late they’ll say “we were going to pull the trigger and they accepted another deal”.
Sound familiar?
Why all this talk about Amare not able
to play center. He played center the whole time Marion was there and now plays it a lot because O’Neal can’t play major minutes and the Suns aren’t comfortable letting Lopez loose.
Derrick Rose-2009 ROTY Tyrus Thomas-2009 MIP...hope I'm at least half right
by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Feb 6, 2009 10:45 PM CST reply actions
That's not a bad point
Amare looked a lot more comfortable playing next to Marion than he has playing next to Shaq.
Shaq has pushed Amare further from the basket, making him less effective.
Marion was a somewhat iffy but capable jump shooter who didn’t need to be right next to the basket to score.
If we’re going on that history, we ought to be trading Noah, not Tyrus.
Amar'e
Looked pretty comfortable playing next to Shaq last year in the last D’Antoni reigns. I think Porter’s been more the issue.
by majoyenrac on Feb 7, 2009 10:24 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
amar'e has definitely said...
he doesnt like this slow pace they play…. we dont exactly play slow…. he would fit with us .. and he might just find that “flow” he’s been mentioning over and over and over and over…… again
But it still was a strecth of maybe 35 games. He's
Played what 47-48 now and has been complaining for the last 20 at least under Porter.
I think either one could work out all right
I think the main issue with Shaq is that its pretty much mandatory to let him abuse people as much as possible most of the time he is in. Noah is capable enough passing and rolling to the rim and cleaning up easy buckets that he wouldnt have to influence Amare’s play a whole lot. T2 hopefully could play a Marion type role. You’d just need a solid offensive plan to work it.
I think it's more the type of center and how that center figures into the offensive scheme.
Noah won’t demand the ball like Shaq and stay camped out under the basket like Shaq. Basically, Stoudemire could still be the center on offense in practical purposes, if not in name, for the Bulls.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
i seriously want to see this group finish out the season..
to see what they have here….trade kirk , noce, hughes, and or gooden….dont care…. but i really like our starting 5. i think if they make the playoffs, they can really make some noise.. nobody would want to face them. their young, talented, fast, and IF they do make the playoffs, they will be VERY confident…… again, if we can unload the four mentioned above, im all for a trade. but not the starting 5. not yet…lets see what they can do for the rest of the season.
x2 on this...
been sayin it since i saw the Suns actually have Amare on the block
i do not want to get rid of TT right now
and i really like how our starting 5 is playing right now as well, but i will get rid of Noah if need be. I think he has pretty muvh reached his potential but TT’s potential is WAY to high to give up on now. He has improved dramatically
by i_like_turtles on Feb 8, 2009 1:36 AM CST up reply actions
Problem with TT
When TT plays well no one wants to trade him even for a more proven commodity, when he plays poorly he has no value other than his upside. To make a trade you get value (Amare) and give up a potentially very good player (TT) who is raw and may surpass the person you are trading for, it is called risk and it it what keeps pax from being a good GM in this league, he can not tolerate risk.
but this doesn't look like the Tyrus...
that was inconsistent. This looks like the Tyrus that when given minutes has proven he can perform. Gooden seems to be the only thing that was blocking him in the beginning. Look at his numbers with 30+ minutes of play. Amare put up 18 and 7 tonight. Tell me that Tyrus does not do that night in and night out with 38 minutes. I can tolerate risk, but I just cannot see the point right now. Even if we get Amare what are we doing this year? If we make the playoffs with the team we have or with a new team with Amare we still aren’t top 3 in the east. Would we be able to ride out the rest of the season and trade for him in the summer? (assuming someone else doesn’t offer enough to pick up Amare). If Pax does this and includes TT i can promise that a year or 2 from now we will look back and think how stupid the trade was.
by i_like_turtles on Feb 8, 2009 11:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't worry
Pax won’t do it and we will look back 2 years from now and say we could have had Amare and we are stuck with (fill in the blank). It is what the Bulls organization does incredibly well.
i know man...
this also worries me if TT turns out to just be playing well right now and truly doesn’t develop any further i will be eating my own words. I know the Bulls never pull the trigger, but I think they will on this one after seeing how dumb they were in the past.
by i_like_turtles on Feb 9, 2009 3:53 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah
I still think Tyrus is untouchable….a young kid still wiht his vast array of skills and athleticism who’s put a nice 7-8 game stretch of consistency together and is doing a bit of everything playing his best ball on the road……right now.
I think it would bite us to trade him in a combination wtih draft picks.
I like Noah, but I would be more comfortable with Noah going with draft picks and the expiring Goo_en than Tyrus.
i'm just sayin that i'm starting to think i was right
about not wanting to trade TT and i think a couple more games of this play and people will jump on board.
by i_like_turtles on Feb 11, 2009 1:51 AM CST up reply actions
Questions about Tyrus, Amare, and the cap
If a proposed trade with the base of Tyrus, Thabo, Gooden was accepted.
What are the Bulls going to pay Tyrus?
How much $?
How many years? He is up for extentions.
In the next 3 years, is Tyrus going to put up Amare’s numbers?
Approx how much cap room in 2010 with Amare on the books.
Are all 3 years of Amare deal gaurenteed? Some reason I thought he could expire in 2010 too?
These are all question you need to look at before pulling the trigger. Amare can play more center than Tyrus. Sure he is an offensive big, but everyone has been complaining about the Bull’s defensive big since Ben Wallace was on this roster with Tyrus & Noah. They need complementing players. Personally, I think Amare plays better on offense in the Center position. There is a great comment above of Noah and Amare switching roles on defense and offense as powerforward and center. Noah plays the 5 on Def; Amare 5 on Off.
Having a big score easy and taking the ball to the whole is what the Bulls have been missing for years and now everyone wants to throw it away for a week and a half of good basketball…
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