Is Ben Gordon a selfish player?
by robinhood on Feb 4, 2009 11:40 PM CST
39 comments
I used to be a Ben Gordon hater. I saw the points he put up but dismissed them as the result of selfishness and inefficiency. I used to think he wasn't worth the money.
I find the titular question bouncing through my mind after seeing the box score and noticing BG had 7 assists. I thought wow, that must be a season high only to find out he had 8 assists five games ago. He is averaging a career high 3.7 assists and he is shooting 15.6 feild goals in 36 minutes That doesn't seem to me to be a disproportionately high amount of shots from a "shooting guard."(can any stats people out there prove or disprove this?) He is averaging 445 field and 409 3p%. 85% from line.
I'm really curious to see what people out there think. Is there anyone else out there that has warmed up to Gordon? Should Gordon be resigned? Do you think he fits with Rose? Is his improved play only about getting a new deal? Is anyone comfortable with the fact that a guy who hired vinny del negro is going to make this decision at the end of the year?
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One last note.
Ben Gordon scored less points and took less shots but dished out more assists than D.Rose.
it's not selfish because he's an efficient scorer
someone like hughes or nocioni is selfish because they take a lot of low percentage shots. ben gordon consistently shoots the ball very well, so for the team to maximize their scoring, that has to involve ben gordon taking a lot of shots.
Gordon gets paid to take shots, and that's about it.
At this point Ben is a known commodity, a smallish 2-guard with solid offensive skills but an excellent outside shot. The way I see it, if he can continue shooting at a solid clip from then I have no problem with him being selfish, with the caveat that his shots come more from the sets the Bulls run and not isolation plays. It’s pretty clear that Ben isn’t great one on one taking his man off of the dribble. I’d rather see him play off of screens and curls than have to work for his own shots. I’m a BG fan.
Good point
I don’t think he is a selfish player. We all have to understand that without Gordon, the Bulls would have never got to the playoffs for 3 years. If you look at the playoff stats for all 3 years that they went, you will see that he was the guy who put us over the edge. I think that he should’ve been paid more than Deng when it comes down to production. Gordon has had very good seasons here and Deng has had only one stand out season. Unlike man other people who believe that Gordon should not drive to the basket, I believe he is actually very good at taking on one on one situations but he is not so good when he drives into multiple defenders because of his size. He is one of a kind. Never seen a player like him. He is not like Vinny “microwave” . Compare their numbers and you will see Gordon is far ahead of him in skill. He is a very interesting player who I believe on the right team could win a championship. He is one of the best shooting guards in the league and many people don’t realize that at all. They are so busy picking his game apart that they fail to see his positives. Chicago has been very hard on him since he has been here. If I were him I would leave in the summer and join another team for less pay. The funny part is that when he does move on to one of the teams that are seeking him (Heat, NY Knicks, Jazz, Hornets,) that is when Chicagoans will miss him and want him back. No one on this team has killer instinct like BG but Rose. Go on youtube and look at his mixtapes and you will see that it will be a mistake not to resign him. Chicago Bulls always trade or let good players walk. Look at our history of past players who have gone to other teams and have been successful. BG will be one of them.
by Beeman18 on Feb 5, 2009 12:34 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
plays selfish at times.
but plays within team concepts…id say…eye balling it…75-80% of the time. in recent weeks 90-95% of the time.
problem is that Gordon is short and does have great handles and his assists tend to be the jump shot variety…which makes him a very poor play maker. Given his minutes…touches…and position he really should be averaging 4.5 assists per game.
But he is such a great shooter when open and creative when not open that he ends up shooting a lot.
So…when he does go into “selfish mode.” it usually ends up looking really bad. defenses key on him cuz they know he is not passing. he ends up really forcing shots.
His size and skill set is perfect for a 6th man on a great team. As a starter it will be very tough to ever win more than 50 games with Gordon and once he gets matched up across a JJ or a Kobe or Rip or Pierce or Wade or even a healthy Arenas you are going home. he cant defend those guys and never punished opposing defense enough with his passing for them not to key on him…so when he tries to do it all he usually gets stopped.
gordon is going to be one of those guys that is instant offense off the bench.
or end up a great 6th man on a great team.
Or end up like Gilbert Arenas…a starter on a bunch of near .500 teams or slightly above or slightly beloew, just good enough for a team like the bulls to be satisfied making 50 million plus year in year out.
But layely he has been nothing but professional and mostly playing team ball. That and cuz Hughes was banished is why we have been in every single one fo the last dozen or so games and won 4 of 5.
I’m becoming a fan of his again like we all were his first 2 years.
Given its a "contract year"
I honestly expected BG to put up a minimum of 20 shots a game with nearly 0 assists. I’m kinda surprised. With that said, I would rather take my chances in 2010 than resign him for a Deng-like contract. Then next year we can go with Thabo or Hughes at the 2. I think we would have traded Hughes by now if we could have and next year he’s got a contract to play for so he might actually try. This isn’t anybody’s first choice, I’m aware, but it’s the hand Pax has dealt himself.
agree.
Bg’s funds need to be allocated to the front court. ideally we deal Hinrich (and filler/Noc?) for lafrentz’ expiring and rudy or Pryz.
Then let Gooden, Gordon, and Lfrentz(abviously) expire and go after Milsap.
Milsap, Pryz, Noah, and Tyrus and gray is about as good as any team in the entire league as far as rotation at the 4/5 espeically rebounding and defending….heck milsap’s 18 on efficient shootinf and the way Noah and tyrus are coming around this could be darn good.
Selfish is a strong word.
But its not about how many shots you take, rather what type of shots they are. Personally im not a big fan of most stats, I like to watch the games and come to my own conclusions.
Gordon is a good(not great) player that has the habbit of shooting, no matter what, once he decides thats what hes going to do
Finally a person who understands that the statistical data doesn't tell the whole....
….Ben Gordon story. A person who lets their eyes be their judge. I’m with you ChiFan.
For my money, Ben Gordon has been the most reliable Chicago Bull for the last 4 seasons. Hinrich and Deng have always been Paxson and Reinsdorf’s “Golden Boys” and Ben has always been viewed as less valuable but he’s been the only “core” guy whose numbers haven’t fluctuated wildly over the past 3 years. He’s steadily hovered right around 20 ppg and, with the exception of the toe thing he had going on, has been the most reliable Bull in terms of health in comparison to Hinrich (pretty sturdy guy with the exception of his injury this year) and Deng (who has teetered closely to being labeled “injury prone”).
Gordon is not selfish and despite not hitting any game winners lately, I do not hesitate to call him our best player down the stretch. So many people want to point to his miscues. But what they don’t talk about is how he was double teamed every time he got the ball because other teams realized he was the only true threat down the stretch. Thankfully a developing Derrick Rose will aleviate that…and hopefully this rejuvenated Luol Deng will continue joining in the 4th quarter festivities of close games. Gordon is a scorer and as such he is going to take some shots that a non-scorer probably wouldn’t take. Some shots will be good shots, others not so good. Some of the bad ones will go in and you’ll call them good shots but that’s what you get when you have a shooter/scorer. Ultimately though, Gordon will benefit greatly from playing alongside Derrick Rose and Rose will benefit from Gordon. What we really need is somebody to turn their back to the basket and play the post legitimately and that will REALLY space the court for BG and Rose since the defense would have to provide some help to defend that post player.
Despite being jerked around for at least the last 2 years in terms of money, m2inutes, etc…, Gordon has never complained and remains a good teammate and very professional (except for this recent fine he got for something). Calling Ben Gordon selfish is too harsh.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 5, 2009 8:06 AM CST up reply actions
Not really
I really think he was selfish last year and made poor decisions, and not because of his contract. I think that happened because he felt we was the only one that could score, since Hinrich had some nights on and most of the nights off, and Deng used to evaporate on the 4th quarter. That’s why he dribbled all the time and wanted to take every shot. Now, he has Rose, a guy who can score at will and kill a game when someone ask him to do it. So, Gordon knows that he can give the ball to Rose and doesn’t need to force shots, because there’s another guy that can score with him.
I like BG
I don’t think he’s completely selfish, but like all SG’s has moments of selfishnicity (heh)….
I think he’s been underappreciated in Chicago for some time. But I also think we can’t afford both he and Deng, given the fact that they’re both good players but neither is great (Gordon’s diminutive size is an issue as is his tendency to ignore the defensive side of the ball and make his size even worse, but he’s an awesome shooter and a solid scorer and continues to play well enough).
I still am not 100% sold on if I were Pax which I’d keep of the two, but I guess Deng’s overall game (fact he won’t kill you because he’s decent at everything and he’s young) will always make him a bit more valuable in a future trade….but Gordon’s just such an explosive scorer……
Absolutely agree that neither is great (and neither will likely ever be).
I just worry about how much better Deng can get. I said in another conversation that he’s in year 5 and with the notable exception of Steve Nash there aren’t many players who improve markedly after that point. Deng is what he is. A solid, above average SF. But I’m of the mind that his position is easier to replace than a lights out shooter with ice in his veins. But what it really comes down to is what kind of deals we’re able to make. Would you include Deng in some sort of package to get Bosh/Stoudemire to Chicago?? I would and in a heartbeat. I think that Gordon is potentially more dangerous than Deng when you add a frontcourt weapon (But I also think that Deng can be that frontcourt weapon if he added a post game seeing as though he is 6’9" but that’s starting to seem more and more like wishful thinking on my part).
I hear you though. My gut tells me that we keep Deng and this season becomes Ben’s last as a Bull. In his heart I know he feels he’s just as valuable as Deng and Hinrich if not more valuable. So although he likely won’t get the big deal he was looking for, he probably won’t settle for signing that inferior deal and having to continue playing alongside those two. I would just hate to see him go somewhere and flourish because he’s surrounded by more natural ability than he is here in Chicago though. I can just see Gordon coming back to Chicago as an opposing player and erupting for 20 4th quarter points with Hinrich trying to guard him on his way to finishing with 45 for the game and a win for his new team. That would burn us all up.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 5, 2009 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
I've been in that same mindframe
Though the nice thing with Luol is that folks see the overall skill set he does have. I do think his position on the team is a bit easier to fill because he’ll never be a top 5 SF (or very unlikely) and likely won’t improve much over his recent all star esque but not superstar performances since coming back from injury….
But him being seen as not just a one trick pony because he can play a bit at both ends and is a smart player, makes him the more tradable….
Essentially if we need to trade Luol, I would imagine (injury notwithstanding) that we’d have plenty of offers…..we just need to get through the BYC year….
And it’s because Luol’s got talents on both ends and does a bit of everything that he’ll be mor etradable with his contract that the super one trick pony BG……
THough ask me again in a month and I’m likely to get upset again as BG’s so freaking important to our past team and never gained the proper respect with our fans because of Skiles….
Still with Rose coming on the way he’s coming on, I think he now can more than replace the lost offense if BG leaves, and with Deng being tradable given his overall game, seemingly do whatever he can nature, and age, and the fact that he’s not in the “max” contract, it might just work out in the end. Plus if T2 gets better and Noah strenthens up, Deng and Rose will add to a fantastic 4.
Question now is...
…will Paxson pull the trigger on something if he has to…or is he to married to certain players or a certain style of play?
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 5, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
He may NOT need to
But he can always with Deng.
If we struggled with BG making $65-70M the whole “Selfish” can’t play D, too small rap would permeate and it’d be much tougher to trade him….even if he’s been worthy of similar pay for our team…..
I would trade
Deng in a heartbeat for Bosh or Amar’e….I would like to include Noah over Tyrus, even if Tyrus techincally is listed as a 4, because I think Tyrus might still just be a special player pretty soon…
I do think Tyrus in the right offense can become a solid 3 with higher upside. Of course he has to improve his timing and work more on angles game situations with his shot, but that perfect form, and his at times lock down D and leaping abilities…..I don’t know…..it’s riskier keeping T2 over Noah, but I’d be fine with that risk especially with Bosh or Amar’e….
Though likely to get one we’d have to give up Tyrus anywya…
I can totally see BG erupting on us every time he plays us. It’ll be very weird watching who’s been most consistently my favorite Bull the past few years on another team, and I do think BG’s a special talent, but not a superstar, and we can’t have both for the money ranges they’ll get in the marketplace.
Piccolomair says:
Taking many shots is not called being selfish, taking shots early in the shotclock or not within the offense is.
Getting no assists is not called being selfish, just like getting many assists doesnt mean you arent selfish. D. Rose got less assists than gordon, but its because he was being selfish with the ball.
I think gordon has been a bit selfish this year, but i think next when he has a contract in hand, he will be more willing to play within a team. In the past i dont remember being gordon being selfish, and if there was a reason i didnt like him overall, it wouldnt be because he is selfish.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I am slowly starting to see a double standard in the critisizm between Rose and Gordon.
I LOVE Derrick Rose and he’s going to be great and I know he’s a rookie and BG isn’t but why is everyone ready to trade BG because he’s short and soft on defense but Rose walks on water? Same thing with crunch time shots, where is it stated in writing that Rose should take a last second shot as oppose to the guy who’s done it before? This is not to rag on Rose but to point out the unfair critisizm of Gordon. BG had what 19 and 7 last night right? What part of those stats means that he’s a 6th man or selfish? Bg may not be great on defense but neither is Ray Allen, Michael Redd, Vince Carter, or Gilbert Arenas. Nor was Reggie Miller. No he’s not on their level as far as caliber but to me he plays well with Rose, better than Kirk or any other guard. I’m telling you, this is the perfect example of media in this town typecasting a guy. Then we let him go and he comes back to bite us. This isn’t a Jamal Crawford type player and situation but it may be more of a Joe Johnson one. Until you someone can tell me where you can get 20 pts from on as few shots as Gordon takes, I don’t want to hear about any trades because Rose will need a consistent shooter to dish to. All the great PGs did and do!
Rose doesnt walk on water....
He hovers over it as he goes for the SLAM!!!
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I find Hinrich to be less of a team player.
Ben understands his role on the team to be a scorer, but he makes the right pass if it is there. He makes the passes into the bigs, he makes the pass to the wide open shooter. It has just been a matter of other players not being good shooters and our bigs not being able to finish. Now all of a sudden he has Rose to pass to when Rose cuts, and Rose can finish pretty well. He has Noah and Thomas, who all of a sudden, have been finishing in the paint, and thus has had a pretty nice passing streak going.
Kirk Hinrich though, if you watch him, he will freeze Ben Gordon and sometimes even Derrick Rose out of the offense. He will ignore them, and just go to the side with Nocioni, Deng, Sefolosha, etc. rather than the guard side. I have a hard time seeing this being the design of our offense, because when Rose/Gordon are in the game, the ball has no trouble flowing to the guard side. It seems like Hinrich is trying to hinder his competition at the guard spots, and it’s scary.
When Hinrich first came back, he was passing quickly, just making the smart basketball pass. Now he is back to dribbling and dribbling and dribbling and deciding who and who isn’t deserving to get the ball on offense.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
i agree to some extent
i know you’re a gordon lover, but you can’t say that ben makes the right pass if it is there. there are many times i see him going for his “my turn” basket even when it’s not really what he should be doing. however, i also agree on kirk. i noticed it particularly in the game against phoenix there was something about his body language i didn’t like.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Im pretty sure hinrich passes to rose
and lets rose set up plays when hinrich plays alongside him. Also i think hinrich does what the coaches want, move the ball from the strong side to the weak side. The strong side would be where gordon is (cuz the defense is paying the most attention to him, you know cuz he is great and all) and the weak side is where….umm nocioni is(?) or anyone who is not as good as rose or gordon. Also hinrich and gordon have this perfect play when gordon curls of a screen, hinrich throws him the ball, and gordon effortlessly, fluidly releases a no look turn around jumper that always is in. ITs like the hinrich gordon bread and butter, happens at least once every game when they are on the court at the same time (non 3 guard rotation)
Also….your hinrich hate far surpases my hinrich man-crush……congratulations!
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Ahhh... but can Hinrich score when Rose is off and no one else can create their own shot?
That’s being a team-player, too!!!
I kid, I kid.
Mostly.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
yes yes
gordon>2 guard than hinrich…its common knowledge already….much to my dismay….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Well, that wasn't my point, though.
I mean, being able to score on your own when everyone else is shut down or having a bad night… People don’t refer to that as “team play”, but it sure seems like something that would greatly help the team.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I dont know if id classify it as team play
but thats what guys like kobe and jordan and lebron have….thats that ability to carry a team at least in its greater version….in its lesser version it is called being “a spark off the bench” i guess which is what nochs role is…i guess gordon is somewhere in the middle….
Also i dont believe gordon is selfish overall, i think this year he has gone a little more out of his way to prove his worth, which i cant really blame him for, and like i said once he gets his contract he probably will be more team orientated. He has a right to be selfish this year, and especially after the famous two on one break gone wrong i think he screwed his head on a little straighter (either that or be compared to hughes….gordons a smart man).
I think even larry hughes, when he shoots the ball, does it with good intention. Its not selfish that he took the shot, but more of WHEN he took said shot. Was it within the offense or was it a gut feeling? I think people criticised kobe about this alot before, like the 81 pt game against toronto, kobe was hitting but he wasnt relying on his team at all, and it may work a game or two, but it wont help you win in the long run. Taking a shot with the team backing you up, and taking a shot because you feel you have a right to….thats the kind of ideology that plays into whether a shot is selfish or not.
Because of how the bulls offense is, thats more reason why i cant call gordon selfish….though this year there have been a bunch of plays where i was left scratching my head…and like i said i think its more because its a do or die year for gordon and he really has to show his stuff.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I concur. Mostly.
I think. I skimmed a bit. Although, I think if you help the team, it should be considered “team play”. Which is normative, larger point I was trying to make.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
i know
i write too much…and when i dont…im vague as hell…i guess im a volume typer or something…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Gordon/Hinrich haters and lovers are equally delusional
by darksmokepuncher on Feb 5, 2009 4:14 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think many people hate Hinrich.
They just want him off the team because he is a point guard and our best player is a point guard, while we have a significantly better shooting guard than Hinrich on the team already, who we risk losing if Hinrich is still on the roster.
It’s not that we hate Hinrich. He’d probably be fine if we drafted Beasley, but right now, the team needs to reallocate it’s resources. We need to get more talent in the front court, and losing Kirk, as long as replaced by a competent backup point guard, won’t hurt the team much, if at all.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
This is extraordinary.
I would not have guessed that someone with the intelligence of a 2 year-old could be capable of typing. But then you come along and prove me wrong.
Now we know why,
you’ve been drinking over the internet, haven’t you?
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
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