A little Bulls break for some MJ/Kobe discussion.
After having taken in a lot of the fawning over Kobe's 61 point game against the Knicks - and rightfully so because the man did score 61 points after all - some friends and I were discussing how impressive Kobe's big scoring nights have been in comparison to MJ's.
The very first question that unconsciously came out of my mouth was, "Why doesn't Kobe score 60 against the Celtics, Spurs or Cavs"? We took a look and Kobe's highest scoring games came against Toronto, Portland (when they were not a good defensive team at all), Dallas, Memphis, Charlotte, the current NY Knicks, the Rockets about 2 seasons ago and the Washington Wizards. In that group, only the Houston Rockets were a decent defensive team. And of all the 50 point games he's had I would argue that the only other above average defensive unit was Utah. Here is the list for Kobe:
http://www.kobebryantshoes.com/50point_games.htm
Sure Kobe is uber-talented and can score with the best of them. Whether people like Kobe or not, the fact that he is a quintessential offensive talent cannot be disputed. But when comparing his top scoring exploits to those of Jordan's you can't help but immediately notice that 5 of Jordan's top 6 scoring games came against good to great defensive teams. The late 80s and early 90s Cavs, Shaq's Orlando Magic, the Bad Boy Pistons who were without a doubt the most physical defensive unit we've ever seen on a basketball court (against whom MJ scored 59 and 61 respectively), Bird's Championship Celtic teams, the overly physical bump and thump 76ers when Barkley and Mahorn were kickin' everybody around, the New York Knicks when they were at their best, the Portland Trailblazers when they were championship contenders, etc.... Factor in that MJ scored 40 or more 38 times in the playoffs (Unbelievably, Kobe has only 6 thus far) and MJ scored 50 or more 8 times in the playoffs (obviously none for Kobe at this point). Here is the list for MJ:
http://www.nba.com/jordan/50games.html
Keep in mind that this list represents only what he did in his 13 seasons as a Chicago Bull (the same number of seasons that Kobe has played to this point). Looking at those playoff numbers in this context has only reinforced the belief I've long held about MJ being a far superior scorer than Kobe in the biggest of moments. I've had several arguments with guys in the past about this very topic. I told them that I don't really care about what happens in game 37 or 54 of the regular season and when Kobe goes for 81 in the playoffs to let me know then (and as we can all see plain as day, Kobe's postseason numbers PALE in comparison to MJ's and that's ultimately why for my money MJ is better). But for all you guys too young to remember, you simply had to see MJ to believe it. Kobe's the best thing going now (and he's a damn good thing), but to see what MJ did on a nightly basis was simply mind blowing.
We concluded that Kobe's big games are impressive. Hell you could lock some guys in a gym by themselves with 2 balls and they couldn't score 50 pts in 48 minutes and an overtime period. And if 50 was so easy to get then everybody would do it, so big props to Kobe. But ultimately we were not as impressed with Kobe's big nights as we are with MJ's due to the significance (Jordan had big scoring nights and it was usually at the most dramatic of moments) and tougher opposition most nights.
So again, when Kobe hangs 60 on the Celtics or Spurs in a crucial game you let me know. He may very well do it and do it soon. But it sure hasn't happened yet. Where do you guys stand on this?
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Comments
So, let me get this straight, Jordan's better than Kobe? Earth shattering
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 4, 2009 8:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Why do you have to be an ass snley?
With your snide remarks. And the discussion isn’t even about whether Jordan is better than Kobe. It’s about Kobe’s big games vs. MJ’s big games. My goodness!!!
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 4, 2009 8:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not an interesting conversation b/c like all the Kobe/Jordan conversations it just leads to the same conclusion
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 4, 2009 8:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It nevers fails to amuse me when people say something is not interesting...
…and then they take the time to comment.
Just don’t bother to pay any attention to it then snley. I mean really, how hard is it not to click on the link and simply ignore it?
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 4, 2009 8:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's interesting is...
MJ never had Kobe’s range. He really had to venture inside the paint for his points which make his scoring binges a lot more amazing. Wilt on the other hand was just too physically advanced for his time. No one that tall and strong ever existed in his era. Put him among the current centers and he’ll be compared to Joakim Noah.
by TarugoHindutSurprise on Feb 4, 2009 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with that comparison
personally, i really dont like admiring any players before 1980. The modern era to me really started with bird and magic…. let me just say this… bill russel was as big as a.c. green. Wilt certainly would be a 20 and 10 guy but none of that leading the league in assists and avg 50 points. lol. im pretty sure 2000-1999 shaq would eat him.
by mandoman10 on Feb 4, 2009 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Quick, without your wiki
tell me what you can about Bellamy, Thurmond, Embry and Lucas. Just maybe I’ll take the time to explain the rest of what’s wrong with your thinking.
by California Al on Feb 5, 2009 12:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, a more polite reply
Wilt’s advantage wasn’t so much among the centers as the rest of the players in the NBA. When Shaq made his first appearance against the Bulls, the first time he went up for a jam, MJ creamed it just to tell the young silverback, “not just yet, Kid”. That would never have happened back then. His scoring was aided by the lack of an offensive goaltending rule. I saw one of his big games, and he was helping shots into the bucket all night.
But the scoring is only the tip of the iceberg with Wilt. You have to look at his rebounding, defense, playmaking, and then add the athleticism of being the strongest and fastest player in the game, a world class volleyball player post-basketball, an NCAA high jump champion, take a quick peak at him physically vs Schwarzenegger in Conan, and add in somewhere in the vicinity of 25,000 women, and you realize that this guy only scratched the surface of his potential. He was so dominant, there was no need to play better than he did. In fact, he was a little sensitive about being considered a freak (“nobody likes Goliath”), and seldom exploited his dominance.
But don’t underestimate the centers from that period; there were plenty who could play today. The players of that era still believe Russell was the greatest player of all time. It was said he could beat Wilt by holding him to 15 points, or beat him by making him score 75. Not sure I’m smart enough to understand that, but that sentiment always impressed me.
by California Al on Feb 5, 2009 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
California Al...
…you make good points regarding the players of yesteryear. I’ve always believed that if guys like Chamberlain and Russell played when there was an emphasis on weight training and other advancements that have taken place in the last 15 or so years then they’d be monsters today as well. Now I don’t believe Chamberlain would average 50 pts and Russell would get 55 rebounds, but I do believe that Chamberlain could have been a 30+ ppg guy and that Russell would have been a lot like a left handed Kevin Garnett After all Chamberlain was 7’1" and weighed 275 back then. If he were playing today you could all about 40 – 50 pounds of muscle to his frame for a guy his size and he’d be overpowering. The only guy who’d stand a chance would be Shaq. And by all accounts, Chamberlain was a world class athlete. As for Russell, he was 6’10" 220 back then. You’d likely be able to put another 30 – 40 pounds on him and he’d be more like Garnett than any of us could ever imagine.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 5, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wilt vs. Shaq
would have set a record for missed free throws!
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Feb 5, 2009 6:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
History lesson for those who need it
Wilt was a GOOD free throw shooter. Than the NBA changed another rule because of him. You couldn’t just take off and dunk free throws :-)
by California Al on Feb 6, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Shaq tried that, he would destroy the basket!
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Feb 6, 2009 6:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
With the rules changes to slow down Wilt, and the improved overall size of the NBA, Wilt’s numbers would be scaled way back. But near 30 amd 15? Definitely possible, and that would still make him the best stat center in history.
And Russell still has that mystique. I’m imagining Garnett’s physical presence, Duncan’s game smarts: wow. Easy to see all those titles.
by California Al on Feb 6, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So basically you wrote all this
To tell a bunch of Bulls fans that MJ is better than Kobe? It’s nice to remember the good ol’ days, but what kind of response did you expect? This is nothing new, and the fact that MJ is better than Kobe is backed by pretty much almost every statistical measure as well.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 4, 2009 10:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Ozzie, you are a hater.
Once again for those who choose to comment without reading, this is not about MJ being better than Kobe. This is about Kobe’s big scoring nights in comparison to MJ’s big scoring nights.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 4, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But ultimately we were not as impressed with Kobe’s big nights as we are with MJ’s due to the significance (Jordan had big scoring nights and it was usually at the most dramatic of moments) and tougher opposition most nights. So again, when Kobe hangs 60 on the Celtics or Spurs in a crucial game you let me know. He may very well do it and do it soon. But it sure hasn’t happened yet. Where do you guys stand on this?
If this isn’t diminishing Kobe and praising Jordan, then what is it?
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 4, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I also said....
“Sure Kobe is uber-talented and can score with the best of them. Whether people like Kobe or not, the fact that he is a quintessential offensive talent cannot be disputed.”
and:
“We concluded that Kobe’s big games are impressive. Hell you could lock some guys in a gym by themselves with 2 balls and they couldn’t score 50 pts in 48 minutes and an overtime period. And if 50 was so easy to get then everybody would do it, so big props to Kobe.” Happened to say that one right before the quote you started above.
Also, I thought I wrote it but apparently I didn’t. The 81 he had against the Raptors was exceptional. But the 62 that Kobe had against Dallas in 3 quarters is by far the single most impressive basketball feat I’ve ever seen! The Lakers needed every point and Kobe was in more of a groove than Jordan when he went for 63 at Boston in 86’!
So as you see I hold Kobe in high regard. The quote you have above reinforces the point I was trying to make. It is in reference to MJ’s big scoring nights being more impressive than Kobe’s big scoring nights.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 4, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Refreshing to read
I think it’s funny how ESPN is so caught up in trying to make the present moment the best thing in sports history. The problem is most of the cult ESPN viewers aren’t able to see through this B.S. and believe the hype.
Great breakdown for all those who continue to misunderstand the difference between M.J. and Kobe.
by Bulls Mouthpiece on Feb 4, 2009 11:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well... Sure...
ESPN wants people to watch regular ESPN… Not ESPN classic.
I completely agree with you (and most likely everyone else at BAB) that MJ is a better player, but more importantly, aren’t we all just becoming our grandparents at this point? I’m guilty of it too btw.
“When I was your age I had to walk 10 miles to school everyday… Through a blizzard… And around a volcano… Uphill… Both ways!”
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 4, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We are becoming our grandparents....
…much the same way this current generation of youngsters will be the same way 30 years from now when some 6’7" 300 lb. super athletic shooting guard from somewhere on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean goes on to average 45 ppg and 20 rpg. Guys then will be saying that Kobe and LeBron were better because of this or because of that…and a guy like Jordan will be mentioned about as often as Oscar Robertson is today.
This is the nature of sports and the conversation that surrounds it (how about all the greatest super bowl ever talk on sports radio and tv going on now). This sort of barbershop talk happens everytime somebody does something out of the ordinary. Happens on ESPN, happens on just about every blog.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 4, 2009 12:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Insightful
Makes me remember just how clutch MJ was.
MJ probably is the best clutch player in the history of all sports (not just basketball). Well Tiger Woods probably also in the top 3. And also Fedor (The Baddest Man on the Planet)?
man up!
by exult463 on Feb 4, 2009 12:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
John Hollinger's (Feb 5, 2009) comments on Kobe/LeBron vs. Knicks
1. In all the mania over what Kobe Bryant and LeBron James have done at Madison Square Garden the past three days, the one thing few are discussing is how awful the Knicks’ perimeter D is. Let’s face it, there’s a reason this happened against the Knicks and not, say, San Antonio, and it had nothing to do with the players showing up in the hallowed grounds of MSG.
New York ranks 25th in defensive efficiency this season, and one can see how high-scoring wing players have little to fear against this squad. It’s not hard to get a step to the bucket against the likes of Quentin Richardson, Wilson Chandler and Jared Jeffries, New York’s three main perimeter defenders. And the Knicks are a truly pathetic shot-blocking team, rejecting only 2.5 shots per game — that puts them dead last in the NBA, with an average that is only about half that of most teams.
So by all means, let’s applaud LeBron and Kobe for putting on a great show this week. But let’s also consider the team that surrendered both performances and ask ourselves why it was so easy for those two players to dominate the Knicks in their own building.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Feb 5, 2009 12:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

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