Why the trades were bad for the Bulls
by Sports2 on Feb 26, 2009 8:22 AM CST
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PrintAside from the financial reasons I've discussed elsewhere, I'm getting discouraged by the on-court effects of the trades.
* Guys who in practice needed meaningful on-court development are losing it. That's Tyrus and Noah, but also Rose through the back door.
* They'd "earned" this time by gaining consistency and simply outlasting guys who sucked (Gray, Noc, Hughes) and guys who got hurt (Gooden).
* They've been rewarded for this not with security and PT, but by having those guys traded out and a fresh crop of veterans brought in. Timmy, Miller, Salmons, who are getting their PT simply because of their veteran-ness. Perhaps they're marginally better players at this point, but we've essentially re-created the problem we spent the first part of the year "solving"
* Feeding into this is the fact that Vinnie Del Coacho is likely playing for his job and for future jobs around the league. Which puts him in the time-tested coaching position of saying "screw the future, I'm here to win today". Which is, you know, the exact opposite of what actually needs to be done with a team full of Derrick Rose, Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah.
* I say Rose is getting it through the back door because, without the trades and the introduction of more vets up front, I'm guessing there'd be less pressure to sit Rose at key stretches since there's the illusion that, with a bunch of vets out there, you might actually be getting somewhere.
Rest assured that's just an illusion. I don't think we're really going to get anywhere with Miller, Salmons and Timmy that we weren't already capable of getting to. Perhaps we're a little bit more likely to sneak in the playoffs this year, but even if there's additional "development" value to getting into the playoffs, it doesn't seem that it's going to be all that great if it comes at the cost of "development" in getting to the playoffs.
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Well it's a better solution
than Pax doing nothing because he’s afraid the coach will fuck it up. Like Drew Gooden wouldn’t have gotten this time if he was healthy.
At least Vinny’s making it easier to get himself fired.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 26, 2009 8:26 AM CST reply actions
It's 2008 all over again
Excitement of deadline deal turning into hoping coach is bad enough to royally mess it up and miss the playoffs so he can just get fired.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
The excitement was getting rid of Wallace
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
No, it's not better.
1. Adding three vets to your team like that is an “opportunity” that no coach, even a really good one is going to pass up.
2. I don’t see any reason to believe hosing the kids’ development was was likely an obstacle or reason for Pax to stop and think. My guess is he’s not thinking much differently than Vinnie in that respect. Playing the kids less is a feature, not a bug of the trades.
3. Given the high cost next year (Ben Gordon, scraping the luxury tax), I just don’t see how the added benefit. And this from a guy who likes Brad Miller quite a bit.
"Adding three vets to your team"
Vinny thought Gooden and Nocioni were good vets, so I really don’t see a difference in how he would’ve coached. I think Pax is trying to make the team coach proof but at least when Vinny goes on tilt the players he puts in are now competent.
Obviously that’s not a good strategy long-term, but that’s what happens when you hire these goofs as coaches.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 26, 2009 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
Making the team coach-proof would have been dumping guys instead of swapping beaten competition for new competition
I see your point, to me it seems like the the Tyrus/Noah vs. Gooden/Nocioni battles appeared to mostly be over. Gooden was hurt, yes, but in his final games he’d given way to the kids as the starters. Nocioni’s minutes were largely, but not completely coming at the expense of Deng. Which is a whole seperate issue, but still.
Point is, the Bulls somewhat seemed to have worked themselves into the proper roles. By trading away those guys and bringing in longer term, bigger money replacements, they’re starting over in terms of establishing the right pattern and prolonging the issues into next season. And spending more money to do it.
If Jerry Reinsdorf wanted a cheap coach,
either Pete Myers, Scottie Pippen or Jeff Hornacek would have been better choices than VDN.
Of course, it is silly that as long as the search went on, they did not wait another week to make a run at Thibodeau.
Obviously that’s not a good strategy long-term, but that’s what happens when you hire these goofs as coaches.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Feb 27, 2009 1:54 AM CST up reply actions
basically...
the Bulls should do nothing in consideration of VDN, except fire him at the end of the season.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 26, 2009 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
I'd be fine with them firing him...now and promoting Bernie or, preferably, Del. Then, hire Flip!
Or Thibodeau.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 26, 2009 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
The trades
Really weren’t about this year, they are positioning having some smaller expirings for future dealings. Surely Salmons, Miller and Tim Thomas are easier to package with a Luol or Kirk to free up cap room than Larry “Un-legend”.
And who knows Salmons might just be the guy we keep….
Plus at the same time if these guys can get themselves integrated, our team may improve to make the playoffs…..
Now I think VDN is just playing them to get them acclimated….I know it’s at the current expense of D. Rose, but that likely won’t continue, and if it does into 3-4 weeks then we can scream the bloody murder.
What really sucks
is that we were getting momentum with the guys we had who were stepping up into their roles. These were the guys we had been waiting on growing all this time and they finally were doing that. VDN, the momentum killer.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
The sad thing...
Is the roster is better balanced than before the deadline…the Bulls could actually have a rotation that makes sense, an honest to goodness NBA center, and players not asked to play out of position…
But, instead of treating the newcomers as complimentary pieces, Vinny feels the need to work them in…and that is just stupid. Our top 7 players, those who were playing well while short handed, those guys should get the bulk of the minutes…the new pieces should not worked in anywhere that it doesn’t make sense…Instead, Vinny is giving them over 20 minutes a night, while saying how important it is that they get implemented into the system.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 26, 2009 8:42 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
Yeah...
… I guess the way I look at it, a less splashy move might have been in order. Go ahead and do the Hughes deal, because that needed to be done, but trade for Chris Mihm (and offset it with Thabo and Ruffin out) rather than Miller. Just as an example.
Given Noah’s development, we needed a backup center, not a starter who’se going to cost us $12M next year.
I think Miller was fine
He’s not a threat to Noah, more like an alter-ego. And Salmons may end up being a great pickup if the perception that JR is not allowing BG to be signed is correct. Timmie was the price of losing Hughes, fine. But have mercy, Vinnie, were you that desperate to upgrade the professionalism??? It must have been killing him to accidentally win with this bunch of losers.
by California Al on Feb 26, 2009 9:03 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You're very right.
It’s a simple, simple rotation. Starters get 30-35 minutes, Miller 20-25, Salmons 15-20, Hinrich 10-15, Thomas 5-10. If someone is having a bad game or a good game, the coach can adjust accordingly BUT NOT UNTIL THE END OF THE THIRD QUARTER!!! That may be a little too rigid, but with this young team, I think you stick with a near-exact substitution pattern for two & 2/3 quarters.
I don’t know. Seems so simple.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Another proviso to your plan:
Starters get 30-35 minutes, PLUS at least three of them are in for the stretch run at the end of the game, no matter what, and that three always includes Rose. If Salmons is hot and Deng/BG is not, maybe you have Salmons at the 3/2. If Miller is killing it, maybe you have him in instead of Noah. If both of those things are happening, maybe both are in. But that should be the extent of the tinkering down the stretch. Get the vets their minutes earlier in the game. Your starters (read: go-to guys, future of the team, etc.) should start and finish every game, and feel like this is their team, win or lose. That’s what the players mean by “knowing their roles.”
(For practical purposes, this means that Kirk should never be in during the last six minutes. Maybe if he’s scorching hot — like shooting 75% for the day — but no other time.)
Kirk Hinrich,
the anti-clutch.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
In the abstract, I'm fine with Kirk.
Even now, he’s probably a better defender than Rose on the ball, all things being considered. But he’s not the future. Me saying “don’t play Kirk in the last six minutes” really doesn’t have anything to do with how I feel about Kirk. It’s about the team culture.
Well,
I just don’t understand how someone who’s demonstratably worse during clutch time gets played during said clutch time, but that’s just me.
The team culture thing is important too, though. Obviously we should have the people who are supposed to lead this team in the game at the end, and if VDN thinks that’s Kirk and not Rose … well … he should be fired? [He should be fired anyways, but …]
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
rec
Fully agree — starters and bulk minutes go to the ‘old’ crew, not the new additions.
I shudder at the thought of getting into VDN’s head… but if I had to guess at his thought process maybe he thinks getting the new guys playing time will acclimate them to the “Bulls” quicker and in the end (stretch run of games this season) give him the best shot at winning games…
But as a side effect he’s got to be killing the chemistry that was just starting to finally form and create good things for this team.
"Remember, I'm Italian".
Vinny has no system at all, why work them trough the "system"? And your right,
they won two games being short handed, instead vinny del nobody, turns being himself and fucking this team up.
Derrick Rose got Freakin Skillz. When are we going to add a 7th championship?
by broseleay301 on Feb 26, 2009 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
It's getting out of hand
It’s not that hard. You play the guys who have been in the system and have been winning games. They have the chemistry. Then you get the new players to fit into that rotation.
When the new players start building chemistry with the rest of the players then you take another look at your rotation.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on Feb 26, 2009 8:43 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Well said. This is really not that hard, I don't get why VDN keeps screwing it up.
Vinny discovers frontcourt by accident. Someone re-smash Gooden’s groin!
- your friendly BullsBlogger
by fundamentallysound on Feb 26, 2009 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
thank you
it really is simple. And there are enough minutes for the new guys and the ones who have been here before. We are only talking about 8 quality players. Most coaches seem to be able to manage an 8 man rotation.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 26, 2009 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
I'm wondering if one of Vinny's problems is that he can't (or maybe just isn't)
looking at the players available and having some sort of preconception of how a lineup of any given 5 is going to fit together on the court, so he has to throw it together out on the court to see how it looks. He’s like the person who can’t envision what rearranging a room will look like in his head so keeps moving the furniture around trying to find what he likes. Thus, we’re back to these jumpy lineups where guys aren’t on the court together getting into much of a flow – like yesterday, where I believe the starters as a unit played less than 15 minutes together.
If that’s the case, it should impove – it’s just going to be really painful until then. (And no, I’m not saying it has to be this painful, I think that’s part Vinny and part any inexperienced coach)
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
i agree
it is just frustrating. You expect bumps from your rookie players. But you don’t expect bumps from your rookie coach. Makes you wonder why Pax would hire a guy with no experience to mentor the franchise player who obviously needs tons of coaching.
One of my biggest problems with VDN is he never seems to have a plan or vision. He seems too content to just the roll the ball out there and let things figure themselves out. I think this is why we end up with Tyrus shooting 20 ft jumpers in the 4th. VDN never said “we are going to go Gordon” or “we are going to go to Rose” down the stretch. So Rose is running the offense like its the 2nd quarter, Gordon isn’t getting the ball, and Tyrus is deciding to put the team on his shoulders. VDN has to send the team out there with a plan or a focus on what they are suppose to be doing.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 26, 2009 2:05 PM CST up reply actions
It's not that we're only talking about 8 quality guys
It’s that we’re talking about pretty slight difference between the first five and the last three. And that difference is likely even smaller in some folks’ minds than it is in ours.
And that means confusion in the roles of those 8 guys and how much they play.
Like, suppose instead of Miller/Salmons/Hinrich, they were Tim Thomas/Chris Mihm/Sergio Rodriguez/Thabo Sefolosha. I don’t think our winning prospects would be much different, but the Bulls wouldn’t be trying to work that group in like they’re some important part of the team going forward. And they’d cost about 1/6th as much next year.
I also don’t think our winning percentage would be that much different.
I thought this was about on the court play.
Not the financial implications for next season, which have been addressed elsewhere.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
I just think cost should be irrelevant when considering on the court roles.
…but, if you are going there, adding Chris Mihm for the salary exception would have put the Bulls into the Tax, which would cost much more this season…which I am sure would be an issue for management.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
here is where we disagree
The confusion doesn’t stem from the 8 guys being so close together in talent (btw, I think Tyrus, Gordon and Rose have distinguished themselves based on court production this season). The confusion is from the coach not setting roles for each player. The confusion is when the coach subs so randomly guys don’t know what they are suppose to be doing on the court. If no one knows who the ball should be going to at a certain point in the game, that is on the coach. The coach has to install a system. The players don’t know what they are supposed to do or what they are trying to set up in the half court, so when shots don’t fall, everything breaks down.
How can anyone be upset with Ty taking tons of jumpers when the Bulls didn’t seem to be running any plays but the “pass it around until we find a shot” play. One time Rose sat at half court for 8 seconds waiting for instruction from VDN.
I think your argument breaks down to with less talented players on the bench, VDN would be more likely to use them correctly. What he should be doing is using Miller/Salmons/Hinrich the same way he would use Mihm/Sergio/Sefolsha.
I don’t see the minutes crunch you do. VDN was force feeding minutes to Noce and Gooden before the trade. Noah only averaged 23 minutes a game in January, tyrus thomas 28, even with Gooden hurt for the majority of that time. They are averaging more minutes in February, even after the trades. Its not hard to get playing time for all the bulls key guys.
Potential minutes breakdown:
Noah 20 / Miller 28
Tyrus 33 / Noah10 / Deng 5
Deng 30 / Salmons 18
Gordon 36 / Salmons 12
Rose 33 / Hinrich 15
You can still get 30-36 minutes for all your starters, 28-30 minutes for Salmons and Miller, 15 for Hinrich without much trouble, you just have to play the guys smartly and not haphazardly like VDN has been doing. You can’t play one guy 20 minutes in a half. You shouldn’t pull 3 or 4 starters at a time. Maybe this gets better as the new guys get more acclimated. I certainly hope so.
In the off season, in a perfect world, you would trade Hinrich for a cheap backup pg and a team option contract and keep Gordon (because at 15 mpg, Hinrich isn’t likely to give you more than Sergio Rodriguez would). I think, with good coaching, that is a potential 4th seed in the east next season. I really think the new additions could be a huge bonus if / when they are fully integrated. The Bulls have a team that can attack you at 5 positions for 48 minutes on the offensive end. That is rare. They are a game removed from putting up 120 points on Orlando, the highest point total scored against the Magic all season. This team has potential.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 26, 2009 5:18 PM CST up reply actions
In theory I don't disagree
But in practice I don’t think any coach would use Miller/Salmons/Hinrich the same way he would use Mihm/Sergio/Sefolsha. I just think it’s too much of a temptation for any coach, especially given the starting five we’ve got.
The flip side of what you’re saying is let’s imagine our starting five were better. If we were starting Paul/Wade/Lebron/Bosh/Howard, we’d treat Miller/Salmons/Hinrich the way we’d treat Mihm/Sergio/Thabo.
Now I fully realize it’s an “out there” thing to say that we should treat our starters the same way we should treat Paul/Wade/Lebron/Bosh/Howard, but it makes sense the more one thinks about it. Because even though Tyrus isn’t going to be as good as Bosh, we still have everything invested in making him as good as he can be.
So I think we’re in agreement there on the theory. Play the starters, develop them, and treat the backups like backups. Stick to that theory and there’s no minutes crunch. But I just don’t see it playing out like that.
I agree they, at least the kids, have come a long way. And I think they need to bet sig
Yeah, my comment below is in complete agreement here.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
The confusion should end when one realizes that the first five average about 6 years younger...
…than the next three. Seriously. If one thinks they are equal in talent (and that’s obviously a different debate), for this time, right now, I can’t understand how it’s not obvious that the edge goes to the younger guys.
Unless, of course, you hire an inexperienced coach on a two-year deal who has to “prove” he belongs as a coach.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I agree that the trades messed up with VDN mind
But don’t agree that the trades were bad to the Bulls. I’m beginning to understand why Matt wanted so much Brad Miller. He’s a huge upgrade comparing to Gray and Gooden. So, I don’t have a problem with him having a lot of playing time. A rotation of Tyrus, Noah and Miller is pretty good. The problem is playing Tim Thomas a lot of minutes and leaving Tyrus on the bench, especially when timmy is having a Noce night – when he shoots and doesn’t score much -, like yesterday.
As for Salmons, he’s showing he can play and contribute. I just don’t know where should he be playing major minutes: if SG or SF. I think that, if he plays SG, Hinrich would have to play less minutes than now. Does Vinny have the guts to reduce the rotation to 7 or 8 players, like it used to be before the trade? Definitely not. And that’s the problem.
Always seems to come down to Vinnie, doesn't it?
You could have stopped after your first two points. I was lukewarm on the Amare talk because VDN had been cornered into running out the players we’d largely been clamoring for, and sonofagun, they were playing great 95% of the time and beating good teams. It should have been so easy to tell the new guys that they were needed, will play plenty, but for now, we’re going to keep running with the kids, and will work the new guys in slowly.
The two worse case scenarios would have then been either we kept winning and the three might have gotten a little uneasy about their lack of opportunity, or the ether would have worn off, we turned back into pumpkins, and there would have been no issue with retooling for next season with good healthy looks at Salmons and tt.
(BTW, would everyone be able to distinguish if we used tt vs TT to identify the two?)
TyT vs TiT
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
Thomas vs. TiT
at least let US give him the “proper respect”.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I always distinguish between the two
by never talking about Tim Thomas except by full name. Why abbreviate it, he sucks, doesn’t deserve it.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Feb 26, 2009 11:20 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Pretty much all those issues
can be rectified by sitting Tim Thomas and hiring a good coach. And a good coach would sit Tim Thomas.
So for me the trades aren’t the problem.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
You can't make trades outside the context of the team you've got
I can’t believe I’m going to go to bat for Vinnie, but I think pretty much any coach in his situation would do about the same thing.
D’Antoni was playing Tim Thomas. Mike Dunleavy played Tim Thomas. They might not be great coaches, but they’re not imbeciles. In the absence of being told not to, most guys are going to play a vet over an unestablished player.
And really, I don’t have a particular problem with that. Everyone’s responding to this post by saying “well yeah, but we swapped out other players” or ’we’ve got lots of depth", but that sort of misses the point to me.
What we should have been doing was moving in the direction of less “depth” and more consolidation, rather than swapping three guys out for three guys in.
They might be a better three guys, but what we really needed done was swapping three or four guys for one or two guys and more financial breathing room.
For me, the operative point is that
VDN is playing Tim Thomas over players who are the future of the franchise – whereas it wasn’t as if Dunleavy or D’Antoni were benching guys who were part of their core. And the moment Gallinari was healthy, he was elevated to the starting lineup – over Tim Thomas. You’ll note that Gallinari didn’t have a moment’s NBA success beforehand, whereas T2 (at long last!) had finally begun playing well.
Now TT is getting shorter minutes, pressing, and screwing up. Didn’t see that one coming.
You’re point is taken, though. And for me (and I mentioned when the trade went down) the danger was always the illusion of depth, much like our totally fictional “guard glut,” which assumed a player like Larry Hughes was of the caliber of the other guards. We didn’t get depth with this trade, unless it’s the kind of depth that comes in for 10 mpg and makes a three-pointer or two.
I’d really like to know Pax’s attitidue toward the Hughes trade. Did he actually believe that TimT was going to help us, or was the trade just to jettison a malcontent and hope Jerome James waddles off into the sunset?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Who was out there that they could have traded for?
I understand your point and actually agree with it…but I didn’t see anybody traded at the deadline that the Bulls could have consolidated the Noc, Hughes and Gooden contracts for…I know Jermaine ONeal was traded, but yuck, I would rather have Brad Miller…
Maybe on draft night or later during free agency the Bulls can make a financially savvy deal that will consolidate talent.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 26, 2009 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
I think no trade was better than Miller/Salmons for Noc/Gooden
I like Miller in the abstract, but I just don’t see him as that much of an upgrade given
1. The mediocrity of this team
2. His expense next year
3. The fact that, while in theory a 3 man TT/Noah/Miller rotation makes a lot of sense, the reality is you’re paying a lot for an older guy who probably wants to be on a winning team (and who publicly said he didn’t like Chicago much after getting out the first time) to play behind a couple of kids he’s probably fairly sure he’s better than.
4. He came attached with Salmons for Noc, which just clouded up all sorts of other things on the roster, for… really… not much advantage that I can tell. Is Salmons a Gordon replacement? A Deng replacement? A Noc replacement? Do we rely on him to opt out in 2010? Can we trade him for cap relief this summer? I keep seeing folks suggest that, but if that’s the case, why did the Kings trade him for Nocioni?
I spose if I were the Bulls, I would have been pretty content to flip Hughes for Thomas/James and ship off Thabo for that future pick. Shop Noc and Hinrich pretty hard, and perhaps something could get done. If you really want another big guy, consider Mihm (could have gotten him with the trade exception) or Jarron Collins or Mikkie Moore. All much cheaper.
O’Neal… I don’t think was gettable after the Heat traded Marion. By the way, how’s that working out for the Heat? Now that’s the team that screwed the pooch. The Kings, I think, would have been plenty happy to take on Marion/Banks for Miller/Kenny Thomas. Would have saved them a lot more money and given the Heat considerably a better player than they got.
"Unestablished player"
that is thing though. Tyrus Thomas is no longer an unestablished player. He has a per over 19 since 12/1. He has been producing double-doubles in Bulls wins for over a month.
We should only have an 8 man rotation. We don’t have an overabundance of talent, we have 8 good players. It shouldn’t be hard to allocate minutes between those 8 guys. Any competent coach could do it. TiT may have gotten minutes for the Clips and NY, but there was less talent in both those places. For the Bulls he is a spot 5 to 10 minute player. Competent coaches have played TiT, but other competent coaches have sent him home (Skiles). So its not like written in stone the guy has to get minutes. He even got a few DNP-CD’s for New York.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 26, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
It somehwat bugs me
It seems that Tim Thomas and VDN are kinda friendly, and that worries me. Maybe it explains all the minutes to TiTty Thomas.
"Remember, I'm Italian".
Upon further review, a little Devil's Advocate
Looking at Popcorn Machine’s GameFlows, I think we’re all giving VDN crap that he doesn’t deserve. Have a look…
Last night we were up 4 at the end of the 3rd with the lineup of Hinrich, Salmons, Deng, Tim Thomas, Brad Miller on the floor. Fair enough.
Vinny starts the 4th by subbing in Rose and Gordon for Hinrich and Deng, moving Salmons to SF. That lineup goes -5, and we’re down 1 with about nine minutes left in the game.
Vinny subs in Noah and Tyrus for Miller and Tim, giving us what I think is a decent 4th quarter lineup in Rose, Gordon, Salmons, Tyrus, Noah. That unit goes -8, and we’re down 9 with six minutes left in the game.
Vinny takes out Tyrus for Deng, which might not be a great move, but it’s not a terrible one considering Tyrus was jacking up everything and the Nets don’t have a power forward. That unit goes -2 and we’re down 11 with about 5 minutes left in the game.
Vinny’s pissed. So far in the fourth he’s gone with decent lineups and his team is playing at -15 for the quarter. So he scraps it and puts in the Hinrich, Gordon, Salmons, Deng, Miller lineup for the rest of the game.
I don’t have any problem with his 4th quarter management. He put the right lineups in, stuck with them, and when the game got out of hand he replaced it with a veteran lineup in hopes of jumpstarting the team.
In the Magic game, the 3rd quarter ended with the Bulls up 5 and with 33 minutes (!) played already by Rose and about 19 minutes apiece for Joakim and Tyrus.
To start the 4th, Vinny goes with Hinrich, Gordon, Salmons, Tim, Miller. It’s the beginning of the 4th, Marcin Gortat, JJ Redick, and Courtney Lee were on the floor, so I don’t really care who plays. And resting Rose made sense because of the minutes he’d played earlier on.
That lineup played five minutes together at +6. The Bulls were up 11 now with 7 minutes left in the game. Vinny subs Noah in for Miller, and the new lineup plays another five minutes together at +6. The Bulls were up 17 now with 2 minutes left. Vinny puts Rose, Tyrus, and Deng in to finish off the game.
Again, zero problems with these coaching decisions. Tyrus was in line to play 28-29 minutes had the 4th quarter been close. Joakim played 25 minutes, but couldn’t play much more because he had 5 fouls guarding Dwight Howard. And Rose’s playing time was there.
by YaoPau on Feb 26, 2009 10:27 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I see what you're saying but I think you may be too deep in the weeds...
Take the first quarter from last night, With over 5 minutes to go, VDN takes out basically the whole starting lineup with the exception of Gordon. What’s that about? Is oit a matchup issue or is he acting like an Offensive Coordinator in Football who scripts the first 15 plays and substitutions no matter what’s going on in the game? I have no problem with the new guys playing but there are some things this season more important than squeezing in the playoffs and that’s the development of the young guys. For instance, if Gooden would’ve never got hurt, do you realize we may have never seen the development of Tyrus this year? Should it really take an injury to find that out? It’s obvious VDN is trying to save his job and what’s amazing is that he’s too clueless to realize that his best chance of saving it is to play the young guys in the first place that were having success in the first place. Only an inexperienced, bad Coach would assume that playing veterans automatically gives him the best chance of winning.
That's nitpicking
Vinny replaced his starting lineup 7 minutes into the game instead of 9, big deal. Lawrence Frank brought out three starters at the 8 minute mark, it’s typical.
To me, if Joakim and Tyrus play 30mpg and Rose plays 35mpg, I’m happy. And had the Magic game been closer, and had Joakim and Tyrus kept the Nets game close in the fourth, that would’ve happened.
The Bulls best two games this season
came when they were short-handed because of the trades (vs. Milwaukee and Denver). Vinny did not have the option to tinker with the lineups and/or play with his “new toys”.
Only when he has options and tries to “coach” is when the Bulls get into trouble.
The man stinks. Put him out of his misery.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
I completely disagree with this post
Almost everything you cite could be blamed on VDN.
- Rose isn’t losing minutes to the new guys. He losing minutes to Hinrich. Hinrich would have been here trade or no trades, so Rose losing minutes is completely on VDN. That is his decision, and it started happening before the trades even went through. VDN has been moving to using Hinrich as his closer for some time now. Except instead of replacing Gordon, Hinrich is now replacing Rose. This is has nothing to do with the new guys. Not one guy we traded for can play the 1. Furthermore, up until last night’s game, Salmons hadn’t even played the 2 yet. So the 3 newcomers haven’t disrupted guard minutes. VDN has.
- The new guys aren’t mariginally better players. They are far superior players on both sides of the court. For every positive Gooden brought to the game, he brought just as many negatives. Same with Hughes. I think Salmons and Miller are both net positives. Miller is a perfect back up center. There should be no problem playing him 30 minutes a night and getting Ty and Noah their minutes as well. A 26-32 team should be in the position of acquiring as much talent as possible. If the Bulls relegated Hinrich to strictly a back-up pg role, than there would be 30 minutes a game for Salmons as well with Gordon and Deng still playing at least 36 minutes a night. There is no minutes crunch.
- VDN refusal to play the young guys is his own idiocy. Pax should refuse to acquire beneficial talent because the coach will potentially screw it up? How about we go to a 5 man team with 7 walk ons so VDN can’t make any mistakes? The bench guys are suppose to produce. It is up to the coach to allocate the minutes in the fashion that will produce winning. I think it is hard to argue that playing Tyrus and Noah big minutes leads to winning for the Bulls. So VDN should be playing the young guys not only because of developmental minutes, but because they actually have the best chance to win with those guys in.
- VDN inability to coach can’t be blamed on trades. This is the way the NBA works, coaches are asked to incorporate new guys into their lineups all the time. If VDN is incapable of doing so, than that is something the Bulls management should know and correct by firing his ass. Almost every problem you cite could be corrected by a change of coaching.
- Its not like any of this is something new. VDN has consistently undervalued front line defense and rebounding in favor of scoring. He did it with Gooden and Noce and now he is doing it with TiT and Miller. At times when we need to clamp down defensively, he is trotting out Miller and TiT. Just like he was bringing in Noce for defensive purposes. That is simply idiotic. TiT should be playing on an emergency basis only, not 20 minutes a night. I can’t believe that Paxson, after banishing Thomas before, now wants him to play 20 minutes a night. That is VDN’s call and its a losing call.
- I think the guys we picked up are good complements to guys we have if used correctly. It is VDN’s job to use them correctly. Instead of fielding a team with less talent, the Bulls could try fielding a team with better coaching.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 26, 2009 1:01 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Tim Thomas' minutes are
the only thing I really have a problem with. VDN screwed up the Hinrich over Rose thing a couple times this season, but I think he knows who needs to be in the 4th. I think.
I heard on the radio pre-game that VDN and Tim Thomas are friends going back to their days as teammates in Milwaukee. VDN talked about how he’s seen Tim “grow” into a reliable player, which made me shout random slurs at my receiver.
TIT is a problem
and the rotations are a problem in my eyes. Its not even all about minutes, its about who is playing with who and when guys are getting pulled. Over the last 3 games there have been a handful of times where a guy has gotten hot (Deng, Hinrich, Salmons, Gordon, Rose, etc.) only to be pulled from the game and not see the floor for 6-8 minutes of game action. That shouldn’t happen. Recently, I feel like VDN’s sub patterns don’t reflect what is happening in the game. Despite my post, I am not as down on VDN as others. But I think the trades are a 100% positive. In both trades we ended up with the more talented players. How can that not be positive?
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 26, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
Vinny and Boylan
What’s the difference? If Boylan had this roster, they’d probably be at a similar record. Everyone hates Vinny, almost every Bulls insider has verified Derrick Rose is the only guy who hasn’t tuned out Del Negro and his shitty coaching. Everything changed from last year, yet it’s all playing exactly the same. Just a fucking treadmill to nowhere.
Confusion breeds success. If they don't know each other, opponents can't have strategy. GENIUS.
Is that true now?
I don’t know … Rose publically talked about how retarded it was that he told the Bulls’ starters to play … I don’t remember exactly, but it was like a soft defense, and Derrick thought they should’ve played a trap. He’s being sat in the fourth quarter for Kirk Hinrich [I mean, seriously, you can give Hinrich more minutes … just not in the fourth … really]. Maybe there’s a rift growing there?
Totally speculation, but … eh.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
who is the extention of VDN/Paxson on the court? Kirk or Rose?
..the passive one?
you bring up a good point..!
Also we lose two primary voices of passion Feb 26, and are left with two team captains who struggle to be starters in the NBA with little passion and no leadership.
Kirk bit of perceived passion is only self absorbtion in attempting to justify his once perceived franchise player status, and Luol Deng is just Luol Deng (a guy in the room who doesn’t cause any problems, and you can expect a one sentence speech of team motivation from him once a month…. for example …“we have to player harder”) A good guy as John Paxson refers too.
I imagine the two voices of passion frailing bodies couldn’t endure any longer the rut of passivity this current franchise exhibits in its approach to Basketball.
Derrick Rose brings the passion of Norm Van and Johnnie Red. …, Winning is everything and the only thing But you have to look at his playing days @ Memphis and High School to see it.
Chicago Bulls currently are a good guys team and likes the exterior calmness of players like Gordon and Rose yet shuns the internal fires burning in these same players, including Tyrus. All three on the verge of exploding and blowing up into championship contention parts, somewhere?.
Good guys teams views NBA basketball as an occupation, and believes in putting in a hard days work, but family comes first.
Championship team puts basketball first and foremost, with a passion to win it all, and after a few championships then family can take on a more dominate role than before…
Kirk brings the passive extention of Paxson and Reinsdorf, subconsiously. Why else would you sit a potential real franchise player in Rose for an hyped reserve franchise player with average basketball skills, dribbles to much and then passes with 3 seconds left on the shot clock, who can’t hit the open jumper and never drives to the hole with authority? … Passive!!!
man up!
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