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Does Vinny Think Rose Was Traded Too?

I did a little research at Popcorn Machine about the gameflows of the Bulls in the 4th quarter.  Here is what I found about Derrick Rose in the 4th quarter of the last three games (not that you couldn't see it with your own eyes, but...):

2/20 vs. DEN: Rose came out with 9:30 left in the 4th quarter and did not come in the rest of the game.  During the time he was out, the Bulls made a 10-0 and 13-3 run.  The Bulls won 116-99.

2/22 at IND: Rose came out with about 5:30 minutes left in the 4th and came back with 1:30 minutes left in the game.  The Bulls were already down by a bunch and that deficit ran up 3 more points while he was on the pine.  He came back in with the game out of reach.  The Bulls lost 98-91.

2/24 vs. ORL: Rose did not start the 4th after playing more than 32 minutes of the first 36 minutes.  They started the 4th up by 5 and with Rose off the court they expanded that lead to 17.  The Bulls ended up winning 120-102.

I wrote a mini analysis of this problem here.  It seems to me that regardless of the results of keeping Rose on the bench during the 4th (which have been mostly positive in a small sample size), They need to have him on the floor gaining experience.  We aren't going to win a championship this year so why not get Rose the experience and minures at key junctures in the game?

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preaching to the choir my friend, ive been yelling the same (at the tv) the last few games

maybe a bit so self preservation on vdn’s part? i’m at wits end.

Don't Taz me bro'!

by robingoodfellow on Feb 25, 2009 10:53 AM CST reply actions  

I agree he needs to be out there.

I know guarding NBA point guards has to be one of the most difficult tasks on the court but I’d like to see him in the gym this summer working on his defense and his 3pt shooting.

One of the problems is (he has a decent mid range shot) but teams know how to play him by just stopping his dribble penetration.

If he can work on his range and consistency that means teams will have to respect his outside shot and then he becomes a true all around threat.

Defensively I would like to see him meet the ball sooner and get lower. They teach you to watch the waist line and the react to the ball on it’s down motion when the player dribbling has no control over the ball. If you can mess up his timing on the dribble your odds for getting the steal has greatly increased. At the very least it makes it harder for teams to set up their offense.

But yeah this season is about Derrick’s development so he should be in when it’s close. I’d like to get Vinny’s take on why he’s been sitting Derrick late.

You out there KC?

There are two types of basketball fans. Those who use stats to fight all their arguments and those who actually watch basketball.

by SoulEater7 on Feb 25, 2009 10:54 AM CST reply actions  

Vinny's take was a general and moronic one

Sam Smith liked it though.

I thought it was interesting to hear and watch coach Vinny Del Negro, whom I thought was sending a message to his team about the way it is going to be, and like it or lump it. But no more playing because you are young or make money or have been here. It’s about who plays harder and wants it more and you better like it.
It’s not an untypical method for most coaches, and, to some extent for rookie coach Del Negro it is a throwing down of the gauntlet. His view of my way or the highway. If he’s going down, he’s going down his way with the guys who want it.
Who knows. Sometimes you make a good team that way.
"My mindset from the beginning was the guys who play hard and give us the best chance to win are going to be out there," said Del Negro. "Sometimes it is going to be your night and sometimes not. That is what it is all about being a team, about putting the team before yourself. Guys are going to have to get used to that.
"I thought we had a good rhythm out there (in the fourth quarter)," said Del Negro. "Kirk (Hinrich) was doing a good job and had good control out there. We got a nice lead so I’m not going to break the rhythm to get someone extra minutes. The job is to win the game.
"We don’t have any All-Stars," Del Negro pointed out. "Guys are going to have to work their minutes. If guys really want to win and become a team they go out there work their minutes, support their teammates and be professional. Now that we have some other guys with experience and feel for the game we’ll see how it works. It’s early and we have a lot of basketball left, but I liked our demeanor and tone and our effort and focus from the tip. It’s an excellent win for us."
And perhaps the beginning of Vinny’s Very Excellent Journey?
It looks like it should be worth following.

(sorry about the formatting, the quote feature done be messing up)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2009 11:11 AM CST up reply actions  

“We don’t have any All-Stars”

^
str8 asshole

..on 2/18/09, Noc was gone..and on the next day, Larry "The Chucker" was just a bad dream...

by Belize on Feb 25, 2009 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

And then there's a mention of Kirk in every postgame

most important backup PG in the league…

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2009 11:07 AM CST reply actions  

nobody asks about kirk.

nobody really asks anything. They usually say “can you talk about…” and then Vinny says a bunch of stuff and likes to add in “Kurt played well”

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm actually okay with sitting Derrick last night...

the game was under control. We’ve got four games in five nights. Derrick’s a very young player that needs rest. In other words, if there was ever a game to use our bench, that was it.

As to the other benchings, well, that’s more questionable, especially since Kirk was playing so poorly in Indiana. But I don’t condone putting Rose in an environment where poor play has no consequences. When he fails on defense, he should be yanked – then one of the assistants needs to get in his ear, let him know what he did wrong. Then he needs to be put back in the game.

It’s the not coming back in the game part that bothers me. When you teach after a benching and put the player back in, that’s good coaching. The player understands that he’s been pulled for his, and the team’s, benefit. When you just sit somebody, don’t talk to them, and leave them there, it’s interpreted as punishment. It both hurts the relationship and doesn’t help the player get better.

Seen from afar, I’ve actually liked the amount of communication between Derrick and VDN. Now, yeah, I’d prefer it be Popovich or Coach K doing the communicating, because I could trust that Rose would be getting experienced, useful instruction. Still, we’re a long way from Skiles days, in which Tyrus and Noah were confused, felt alienated, and on the whole didn’t know what the hell was happening. I don’t think it’s coincidental that T2 and Noah have also begun to flourish with Vinny at the helm.

Derrick leads the team in minutes. He’s gained enormous experience, and he’s continuing to do so. Furthermore, he doesn’t lack confidence, and getting pulled in the fourth is not the kind of thing to bug a player that mentally tough. Heck, that toughness is one of the reasons he drafted him #1 overall.

I understand your nerves regarding Derrick’s development, as both Skiles and Boylan were truly terrible at developing T2 and Noah. But VDN’s done a good job handing the team to a rookie without totally alienating the vets. It might be the one thing he has done well.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Feb 25, 2009 11:26 AM CST reply actions   2 recs

agreed.

if you’re going to sit them, sit them.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Feb 25, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

(at that point, that is)

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Feb 25, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions  

....cause him his job.....

14 hours later I still can’t get that thought out of my head. I have never seen a coach put the star player back in with 2 45 left up 17 before a road back to back….. never.

The next thing I thought about was if Derrick blows out his knee in garbage time does Vinny get fired before or after MRI results today.

I know football is a much different sport as far as health questions but Bears fans kill Lovie if Matt Forte is in after the game is decided….

by Jscho316 on Feb 25, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

So in 2 of the 3 games

the bulls increased their lead by 10 while Rose was on the Bench. Somehow this means that he should have called a timeout and put Rose back in. If you think Vinny could have done more to win the Indiana game that’s a valid criticism, but crying because he didn’t beat Orlando in the manner that you wanted is ridiculous.

Sorry, but he’s not the leader of the Derrick Rose fan club, he’s the coach of the Bulls, and his primary job is to get the team to win games. That’s what gets a coach hired or fired, not amount of minutes played by rookies. Yes, “developing” a rookie is a secondary task, but make no mistake, it is secondary. Somehow I don’t think Rose’s development is hurt by “only” playing 35 minutes last night in the first game of a back to back.

People here need to step back and breathe a little bit. Derrick is the starter on our team, gets major minutes, and still leads all rookies in minutes played this year. While he is the “future” of the Bulls he is not currentlly the biggest factor in whether we win or lose games. If he sits and the Bulls go on a run, there is absolutely no reason from a developmental or organizational perspective to hurry up and put him back in.

by runningman on Feb 25, 2009 12:59 PM CST reply actions  

You realize, don't you, that this is as much about being pissed that Kirk is still on the team

and about wanting to criticize Vinny Del Negro as it is about Derrick.

Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!

by wjb1492 on Feb 25, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions  

no you're not

I’m mad Sue is still on the blog.

No, honestly, the rules don’t apply with Derrick Rose. He should play pretty much all the time, regardless of performance. Sorry for Kirk that he plays his position, if he didn’t suck eggs last year the Bulls maybe wouldn’t have been in the lottery (or at least had odds even worse than 1.7%)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 25, 2009 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't agree that a lack of accountability

leads to better performance. As it happens i’ve been a professional tutor for a good part of my life, so the effectiveness of teaching techniques is one of my “passions”. In every study i’ve seen, a combination penalty/reward system did the most to increase performance.

I’ve never seen anything to suggest that telling someone they can do no wrong and removing any controls over them was a good thing. The top two coaches I can think of from a development perspective are Greg Popovich and Jerry Sloan. Everybody they bring in seems to outperform projections. You can see their results with PGs in Tony Parker and Deron Williams. Do you believe for a second that that their strategy was to make the rookie untouchable?

Derrick is a rookie, and a kid. I believe that structure, consequences, and humility will all aid him in becoming the best player he can be. In the NBA playing time is about the only motivational tool available to coaches. I see no harm in making Derrick think “i’m going to get so good on defense, that no one will ever think of pulling me for a defensive substitution again.” Unless you think that Derrick is already a perfect player, I don’t see why you would harm his development by removing a motivational tool from his teacher.

In light of that, please explain why you believe Rose getting all the minutes makes him better.

FYI: Deron played 28mpg his rookie year. Tony Parker played 29. Derrick is averaging 36.

by runningman on Feb 25, 2009 6:27 PM CST up reply actions  

those guys would've made it regardless.

“In the NBA playing time is about the only motivational tool available to coaches.”

that’s crap. Besides I don’t want Rose motivated, I want him coached.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 26, 2009 8:29 AM CST up reply actions  

They would have made it to the exact same level,

in the same amount of time?

If it’s your position that the great players will deveiop the same no matter how they’re coached or the amount of playing time they get, then what precisely are you complaining about? Do you not believe that Rose will “make it regardless”? Why does he require so much more playing time in his rookie year than Deron Williams, for example?

If you believe that Rose is not one of those players that will “make it regardless”, then why again does he deserve unlimited playing time, even if Hinrich is playing better at the time? Why wouldn’t you want to give the coach every tool he can use to make Rose better?

“Coaching” is getting the players to play better, “motivating” is getting the players to play better. If my word choice is the only thing bothering you, simply substitute the word “coaching” for “motivating” and then respond to the main point instead of this pedantry.

I’m not seeing any consistency in your argument. Giving Rose unlimited, unfiltered playing time does more to harm him than help him in the long term, while simultaneously hurting the team in the short term.

If playing time isn’t an important “coaching” tool, then why do coaches use it as a tool to get players to improve. Sloan didn’t even make Deron Williams a starter until February of his rookie season, even though he was a player that was going to “make it regardless”. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that Sloan has better coaching ideas than you.

by runningman on Feb 26, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

yes, earn your minutes

::barf::

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 27, 2009 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

(I had a better response but I accidentally deleted it)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 27, 2009 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

honestly man

you think Hinrich should play over Derrick Rose. I can’t have an argument starting from that premise, we’ll just disagree.

And as much as the rules don’t apply to Rose, they similarly don’t apply when comparing Jerry Sloan and Vinny Del Negro.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 27, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not so sure that winning is primary at this point.

This team is by no means winning a championship this year, and the team’s future is what counts. Rose is the future and needs to be in as many crucial moments as possible. And anyone that believes that Kirk was the reason for the team expanded the lead is nwrong. In the entire fourth quarter, he had 2 points, 1 assist and 2 fouls. Yeah, he had a nice steal, but the scoring in that quarter resulted mostly from isolation plays and quick shooting by Salmons, Thomas and Gordon.

by dakoose on Feb 25, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Magic 4th quarter developmental juice?

I reject your proposition that the Bulls winning games with Rose on the bench hurts him ,and that every 4th quarter minute he doesn’t play hampers his development. I give Rose more credit than that, he’s not so fragile.

Rose has been in there at the end of almost every game, and he still will for most games. He has gotten and will get plenty of 4th quarter minutes. It absolutely does not matter if he’s sitting while we go on a run a few times, and doesn’t get back in.

Prove that Kirk wasn’t instrumental in that run. I saw him out there doing his job along with everyone else on the floor. You trying to take away his role is nothing but bias on your part. He directly led to two turnovers, the out of bounds play and the steal on the 1-on-1 breakaway that he then ran back and would have had an assist if Salmons wasnt fouled. The free throws were made, so that’s a 4 point swing right there. That’s just if you’re being lazy. The fact is when your team is putting the game away with a group of guys, you don’t sacrifice that just to give your rookie entitlement minutes.

I was onboard with complaints about Tyrus’s playing time, because….. he actually didn’t play. Derrick averages the most on our team, the most of any rookie, and had the most minutes in the Orlando game. These complaints are simply unreasonable.

by runningman on Feb 25, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions  

"Prove that Kirk wasn’t instrumental in that run."

prove why I should care?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 26, 2009 8:30 AM CST up reply actions  

The person that i was writing to

does care, that’s why he debated the point.

I have no interest in debating a point with you that you care nothing about. Not sure why you even interjected yourself into the subject.

by runningman on Feb 26, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

to make fun of your post.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 27, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree

Derrick should get that valuable 4th quarter experience.
But last night the Bulls pulled away with him on the bench, against a good ORL team… with 4 games in five nights looming ahead…
I though the rest is ok for him, and the win-first strategy worked since this is a great time for a confidence booster for this team…

But VDN defeated that notion when he put in Rose at garbage time. Doh!

"Remember, I'm Italian".

by BCs71 on Feb 25, 2009 1:00 PM CST reply actions  

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