Ask and I shall receive: John Salmons scouting report
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 21, 2009 5:00 PM CST
Email
PrintWe've heard a lot from Paxson and evaluators about the defensive ability of John Salmons. We know he's a tall guard, and certainly has the tools to defend. But many do. We also know that (for whatever reason) his adjusted +/- is pretty terrible.
I asked specifically in my Kings trade post: "I could use some anecdotal observational analysis of his defense". And Tom Ziller of Sactown Royalty gave me exactly that:
Salmons is a good (maybe better than good) man defender on the perimeter. He shut down Michael Redd during a vital fourth quarter a few months ago, and honestly defends Kobe more efficiently than Ron Artest ever did. He has good lateral quickness, which allows him to prevent quicker guards and wings from blowing by him to the rim. He's usually the King who ends up on Steve Nash duty.But his team defense blows. At least it has this season, as the Kings are the worst defense in the league. He hasn't been particularly interested in rotating into the lane to challenge whoever is driving past Beno Udrih or Kevin Martin, he makes a concerted effort to hit the defensive glass one out of four games, he doesn't play the passing lanes at all. He's not a roamer, and his man rarely gets an open look off ball movement. But sometimes you want your small forward to help out on defense. Unless playing for a competitive team changes something within him (that's questionable) or Vinny Del Negro sparks him, it's not likely to happen. This will be muted if he indeed plays the two-guard, and especially if he plays next to Luol Deng.
On a supposed ball movement team, only 45% of Salmons' jumpers come off assists. If you think that says more about Beno Udrih and Derrick Rose, I'd note that this has been ongoing since at least 2005-06, with the halycon days of Chris Duhon and Mike Bibby showing the same pattern. So Salmons will take jumpers -- a lot of them. But they have tended to come on his own terms, with his own shot creation. I don't remember too much of Artest's time in Chicago, but if you have watched him in Sacramento or Houston, you'll have seen Salmons' game: dribble, pull up, jump shot. His favorite move is a controlled crossover to get him to about 18 feet, where he'll pull up (with his head cocked to the left; don't worry, he shoots better that way). His shot is smooth and efficient, but he can/will single-handedly kill the flow at times. At the same time, he can disappear on offense for spurts, which might be a good thing, depending on how Rose and the forwards are doing.On penetration, Salmons is a really crafty finisher and a decent passer. He switches hands a lot at the rim, and that infuriates defenders, which is fun/funny. He's strong and absorbs contact without flinching (like Joe Johnson), so don't expect a high free throw rate.His entry passes into the post are among the softest you will ever see. Good for one turnover or broken play a week, guaranteed.In Sacramento, he always played much, much better when starting and playing major minutes than coming off the bench. I think the real issue with him is being able to play extending stints and being allowed to control the ball a bit. In a Manu Ginobili type bench role, he'd be as good as he is as a starter. But if he's backing up Gordon/Deng and playing four minutes here, six minutes there, he won't likely be as effective.
110 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
OT - I just realized Salmons wears a headband. Is that rule still in place?
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
it is as far as I know.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 21, 2009 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
I'd make a deal with him...
he can wear the headband, but he has to shave that chin growth. We didn’t lose Drew’s Johnny to add, well, John’s.
Is it just me or does Salmons sound like the antithesis of Nocioni on defense?
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Thought the same thing
Noc a bad man to man defender but pretty solid team defender….Salmons the opposite, though if he’s a VERY GOOD man to man defender that’s a plus to him.
First thing I thought about, too.
Who would think we’d get the antithesis of Noc who’s just as maddening in his own ways? Don’t roam too much, but still, when the play demands it, play some help defense!
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Well it seems Salmons defensive problems won't be much of a problem
The Bulls don’t play especially good team defense but they do have some good defenders (Deng, Hinrich, Thomas, Noah). Adding another guy with good individual defense gives them the oppurtunity to play a great defensive and not so bad offensive lineup in Hinrich, Salmons, Deng, Tyrus and Noah.
There was an incident a few years ago. The Bulls were killing the Knicks, scrubs were playing out the clock, and the fans were screaming at them to score 100 points for free Big Macs. They took a ton of shots, Knicks took offense and they tried to fight some Bulls players.
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 19, 2009 5:25 PM EST
Fantastic.
Great read. Will be interesting to see how he fits in.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Thanks for presenting the good, the bad and the ugly.
If this analysis is accurate the bloom comes somewhat off the rose (not Derrick). Although an upgrade, he still leaves some holes.
I am concerned he makes a concerted effort to hit the defensive glass one out of four games (not a positive when playing the 3).
He doesn’t play the passing lanes at all and doesn’t play help defense. These are 2 areas the Bulls need to improve on, which he apparently won’t be the answer.
He’s an above average man defender on the perimiter with good lateral quickness which should cut down opponents penetration, a definite area of weakness for the Bulls defenders, thus a plus.
He’s not a roamer, the anthithesis of Noce, so overall it seems his positives outweigh his negatives defensively.
Offensively he can create his own shot but can/will single-handedly kill the flow at times (hardly anything new for the Bulls although with the departure of our former alumni it can’t be any worse than before the trades). His entry passes into the post are among the softest you will ever see ( a problem with many of our players). His game dribble, pull up, shoot. Sounds like he’ll be running Vinny’s same sets.
Overall, it seems the Bulls will improve, but Salmons does not possess enough overall skills to eventually replace Gordon and does not sound as efficient as Kirk defensively, although his length allows him to play both the 2 and the 3. If he stays, the Bulls should do everything in their power to clear enough cap space to retain Ben, in my opinion.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
Overall, it seems the Bulls will improve, but Salmons does not possess enough overall skills to eventually replace Gordon
The Bulls don’t need a sg to replace BG’s production. They are probably going on the assumption that Rose’s production will increase greatly once Ben leaves. BG’s replacement will be more about fit than production. They’ll want someone that can shoot efficiently and defend. They really won’t need spectacular if Rose progresses like he should.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 5:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Salmons isn't a good team defender
because dude never speaks. (thats one of the reasons he drives Kobe and some others Craaaazy, absolutely won’t respond to trash talking)
Seriously, he’s quiet – His dog doesn’t know its own name.
That includes (unfortunately) out on the floor on offense or defense which is one of the reasons he doesn’t play very well at all off the bench. Bench guys have to call for the ball and he’s all but mute.
Oh, at first he’ll be alright as a bench guy but will dissappear into his shell soon enough. Start him and you’ll like him a lot though. TZ summed up his skills very well, he can kill assists because of his need to take a few dribbles after receiving the ball, but is very effective anyway.
So imitate the action of the tiger!
Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood,
Disguise fair nature with hard-favoured rage.
- lend the eye a terrible aspect,
Now set the teeth - and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Feb 22, 2009 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
i'm not too worried about the stints thing
if he’s willing to come off the bench, i think he’ll get the minutes. we see hinrich out there for extended periods of time often, and did also with ben when he used to come off the bench. i don’t see him being jerked around too much, or so i hope. he’ll get some solid minutes backing up deng for sure, and he’ll probably take a good chunk of hinrich’s 2 guard minutes as well. or so i hope.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Anything but Noce
"Whenever Kirk/Ben are in together. Kirk turns into a crappy player, because he tries to freeze Gordon out of the offense." - Andrew7
I think Salmons has gotta start.
I know that sounds ridiculous after last night’s game, but I look at it this way: Is BG gonna be here next year? Almost definitely not. And my opinion on this matter would completely flip flop if management thinks there is even a five percent chance of re-signing him.
So, given that he is a goner – Is this team gonna win a championship this year? No. In fact, unless we get huge growth from our younger players, and the new guys all fit seemlessly into this new system, it’s unlikely we would be able to advance in any playoff matchup, regardless of seed. And that’s assuming we make the playoffs, which is no certainty.
If you agree with me on those points, then that means the rest of this season is almost strictly about the future of the team. Salmons is in that future. Ben, unfortunately, is not. So it’s really a negative for the future of the franchise, when Ben gets starter minutes and plays like he did last night for a few reasons:
1. It increases his value in free agency, especially if he’s the leading scorer on a playoff team. That’s huge exposure for him and will assist in his leaving town.
2. The team becomes reliant on a player that will not be here in the future. Last night’s game was almost single handedly won by BG. It was fun as hell to watch no question, but it is a false indicator of what type of team we will have going forward. Because Ben will not here to do what he did last night and the sooner we learn to win without that, the better.
3. It might upset Salmons, a player that we NEED to play well, not just for us to win in the future, but also for him to maintain any trade value he has in the event that a big trade becomes a possibility.
There always is the counter to this argument. Which is: we could just end up pissing BG off so much that he’ll leave without just out of spite. But I highly doubt that. He’s already pissed as hell. I think he’s gonna go to the team that offers the most money, no matter what. If that’s the Bulls, he’ll return. If it’s not, he won’t. That’s not gonna change because he came off the bench and played a little less at the end of the year.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 5:46 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
I agree with you 100%.... I believe when Ben set himself up to leave. He plays well this year
taking a lot of shots and scoring a lot of points to up his value to other teams. I believe that Ben is tired of the Bulls and this last year was the last straw for him. This year has been an audition year for him and he will leave us in a heartbeat. I think he is dead set on doing this and unlike others who believe otherwise, I think money is no longer the issue. I think he is fed up with Bulls Management. I think he feels insulted by them, particularly when Deng got paid and as far as Ben is concerned he is the most productive player on the Bulls team. Ben feels he is a better player than Deng and should be treated as such.
Ben has an ego and that is not a bad thing in the NBA. All players on his level should or else they will be eaten alive. Ben will go and play elsewhere and he may not get the contract that he thinks he deserves because of the economy.
He will get paid less than he wants, but if he is going to get paid less, he will do so on another team. Ben probably will circle all future bulls games on his calendar and will be motivated to make a statement everytime we meet, to stick it to Management. He feels wronged by Bulls Management and cheated.
He is gone as soon as the season is over. Salmons should start. Ben has already shown what he can do. He is a teaser. Don’t fall in love with him, because his bags are already packed and ready to leave. We better fall in love with Derrick Rose. Ben Gordon is like a woman scorned. He is being professional because in the end he is looking for a big payday and no team wants a cancer, so he is being quiet and playing well, in spite of not being paid what he thinks he deserves from the Bulls.
Only one incident with Vinny is good, but he is gone. Get over it. He is gone. I hope I am wrong because he is a very good weapon to have, but he has been burned for too many years and now finally it is in his hands. The truth hurts so I agree with Juiceboxjerry. As soon as Salmons is comfortable then START HIM!!! We should be planning how to make sure we get something and don’t let Ben leave without us getting anything in return.
Ben is playing as well as he
has always played. Was he just trying to get his two years ago too, because seriously, he is the same guy then as he is now. I don’t really see how anyone can say his game has changed into some kind of audition and stat fluffing solo gig just to trick people to signing him when unlike other guys in the league he has kept a pretty consistent game all along, contract year or not. I’d understand if he was averaging 15ppg in the past and suddenly now is taking a lot more shots and changing his game to showcase himself but his game is the same as any other year and his shot selection is the same. If anything his team behaviors seem to have improved with higher assists and lower turnover rates. His stats this year are not some kind of big tease. He is the most consistent guy on our team for his career. It is silly to spin it any other way.
I think a good goal for the Bulls this year is to finish the season strong and get into the playoffs for the single purpose of giving Rose all the experience we can give him since he is obviously read for it. And for me that means playing Gordon as we have been if he stays or not after this season. Play the best players. In this case Gordon has constantly been that guy.
If he doesn’t turn out to be our SG after this season it isn’t like the new SG won’t get time off the bench this year and training camp next season to get used to playing with Rose. Heck, Vinny might actually have a play book to use next season. This year is pretty much set into motion already with our starters as they stand now and it looks like we are set for the playoffs. I don’t want to mess that good chemistry we finally are seeing with tinkering.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Feb 21, 2009 6:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I have a radical idea. Seriously, this is crazy, but hear me out.
Start the best player.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
That makes total sense
and I always hated when Ben was coming off the bench as wel, but I just think this year it actually makes sense. You say “start the best player” and that’s fine, Ben is the better player. I don’t think you are wrong necessarily, I think we just have different views of what would be a successful season. You wanna win as many games as possible, while I would rather sacrifice a few wins for the future of the team.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 6:40 PM CST up reply actions
Because an extra ten minutes per game for John Salmons...
…somehow makes him better next year? And that’s somehow important to winning games next year?
John Salmons is as much of a ballhog as Gordon. Only he’s not as good. He’s a journeyman who creates his own shots. If he ends up being the starter next year, I’m sure he’ll adjust just fine.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Well, if you read and listen to what all the Sacramento
people are saying, yes, an extra 10 minutes per game does make him better. So, until I can judge for myself I’ll go off of that.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 6:49 PM CST up reply actions
make him better this year, but for next year?
there’s no evidence that if he plays 35 mpg this year compared to 25 that he’ll be a better player next year if he plays 35 mpg then. none whatsoever.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
OK, but the Sacramento people say he has a tendency to pout if he doesn't start
I know that is weak as hell and the Bulls probably shouldn’t cater to that kind of stuff, but is that the way you want this relationship to start if he’s so important to our future?
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 7:00 PM CST up reply actions
yes, because then they'll want to trade him this summer
and maybe they’ll offer Gordon more than anyone else because they’d rather not have bad behavior around the young Rose and would rather have one of the hardest working players in the league around him.
This team has valued “character” for a half-decade now (sometimes to a fault). Why change for a journeyman scrub?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I can see your point, but I don't think the guy is a "journetman scrub"
according to several reports a lot of teams wanted him, even teams like the Spurs. I don’t watch a lot of Kings basketball so I can’t say for sure that he’s good, but I’m sure he’s not a scrub.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 7:17 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think he's a scrub either
but he’s 29 and having his best ever season. I don’t think we’re going to learn anything either way.
If his magic starter juice is gone this season, big deal he’ll get it back next season if Gordon’s gone. I don’t think there’s any extra value in a ‘see what we have’ situation with Salmons, and I’d rather try to win as many games as possible.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 21, 2009 7:23 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, poor choice of words
let’s say Toronto comes callin’, they want Tyrus Thomas but what else could the Bulls offer? Maybe Luol Deng, but if he’s playing well, it’d be hard to part w/ both of them. The Raptors already lost Moon and will probably lose Parker. They’ll need either a SG or SF, or both.
So maybe they don’t re-sign Gordon and they trade Salmons away and they have to rely on Hinrich. And you’ve just lost a few games for nothing.
OTOH, maybe this team makes the playoffs starting Gordon and makes a good showing. Maybe they get lucky and beat a depleted Orlando. Maybe they trade for Chris Bosh. Maybe Reinsdorf wets himself and somehow decides to pay to keep Gordon because having a starting unit with two studs and all under 27 is pretty enticing.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
And maybe Jessica Alba just appeared in my bed, naked, whispering for me to come closer...
Can we get back to the real world please?
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
It is going to be a sad day this summer and an even sadder day...
when Ben Gordon plays AGAINST the Bulls in another uniform. He will get up for those games. I just hope he goes to the Western Conference somewhere and certainly not within the division.
Depends on who you are
For me it will be a conflicting day when hinrich on his new team plays against the bulls….who do i root for?
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 21, 2009 10:58 PM CST up reply actions
root for hinrich to play well
but the bulls to win. :D
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
I just hope
its ben gordon guarding kirk not d. rose…..i can root against ben gordon, i just cant root against rose….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 21, 2009 11:03 PM CST up reply actions
Okay.
why change 29-year-old that only plays well as a No. 2 option?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I think we'll come to appreciate him
I’ve liked him since his Philly days. He played well but was behind both AIs. When he became a FA, Toronto aggressively went after him but he ended up signing with SAC at the eleventh hour once that Bonzi Wells money became freed up. He was set to break out but then SAC got Ron Ron so he had to take a back seat again. But his progression was evident, he breaks out this year. We see a scouting report that basically says he’s comparable to BG in terms of offensive aggression, we know he shoots at a 47% FG and 41% 3-PT clip, we know he’s a pretty good slasher, we know he should be able to hold his own on defense, potentially providing Rose with more relief, and we know that we have him in the last years of his prime at a little less than $6m/per.
I think all of this overrides the concern that BG may see a dip in his minutes. If BG doesn’t want to resign with the Bulls, it probably won’t be because of the offer. I think the Bulls will still have the best offer on the table, especially in this economy, and BG still could potentially be the starter. Let’s be reasonable here. This is good for us as Bulls fans.
by messwiththebull on Feb 21, 2009 7:38 PM CST up reply actions
agreed to an extent
but if gordon sits, he’s gone right? almost nothing will keep him.
he’s not one to sulk, either. so what happens when he comes off the bench? he shoots more. so maybe they get fed up and the relationship really sours and plays him less.
That’s not good.
I doubt that’s likely, though. I think Gordon is the better player and the team is playing well now. Salmons is going to get 10-15 minutes backing up Deng and he should take Hinrich’s 10-15 minutes backing up Gordon, whom he’s definitely and demonstrably better than. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to upset “chemistry” when you’re doing it for a better player, but not for one on the same general level.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
And don't forget this team is 5 games under .500
We’re not talkin’ about the Celtics here. If we really had a great season going I would say you’re absolutely correct, but does it really matter all that much? It’s maybe a difference of two wins. I think having a happy John Salmons is more important than a couple wins on a mediocre team.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 7:04 PM CST up reply actions
The team is playing a lot better lately...
…and they just added a +/- stud. I’d hesitate to call this team mediocre w/o seeing more.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Playing a lot better compared to what? Dog shit?
Just cause they’re playing “better” than they were playing doesn’t mean I’m ready to throw a party.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 7:21 PM CST up reply actions
if you don't think they're playing better, than we differ
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I think he's just upset
that he wasn’t invited to my Brad Miller welcoming party. That was crazy when scotter was doing keg stands.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 21, 2009 7:25 PM CST up reply actions
dude, then when you did those flaming Dr. Pepper's.
My God. You basketbloggers are a craaaazzzzeeee group!
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
No, I know they're playing better
But a team that was nine games under .500, playing better just really doesn’t mean much to me. They need to prove it over a longer period of time to make me a believer.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 7:28 PM CST up reply actions
as a similar argument
we’re not talking about developing a young talent here. Salmons is what he is regardless of a few extra minutes or starting/not starting.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 21, 2009 7:24 PM CST up reply actions
It's not like I'm gonna bitch and moan if Gordon's putting up 30 every night and getting us into the playoffs
It’s just that in the back of my head I’m constantly thinking: “Shit, this is nice, but this guy’s gonna be doing this for the Thunder next year”. Maybe it bugs me more than it should, but it really does.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 6:52 PM CST up reply actions
I'm with you Tyger...
I understand Juice and Bart in terms of their argument of starting Salmons because of the possibility of losing Gordon. But here’s where that argument fails. 1.) Is Salmons the better player? and 2.) Seriously… Who the heck is John Salmons? He’s a 29 year old journeyman whose had 2 good years as a pro on a terrible team. Are fans so starved to get a 2-guard that’s 6’6 that we’re ready to make the argument of grooming someone for a starting spot who most of us honestly haven’t seen play? You know what? Sometimes facts matter. Ben Gordon is the better player. Ben Gordon is our leading scorer. If we are seriously talking about letting a guy walk because we won’t sign him, then Pax has truly failed as a GM. Gordon is right in thinking he got screwed financially here. He is a better player than Luol Deng and Kirk Hinrich. Why? Because production and what you do on the court matter and that was never more apperent than after yesterday’s game. I’ll withhold judgement on Salmons until he plays but there’s got to be more to back up the thought of him playing over Gordon than the fact that he’s taller.
also, as soon as ben goes to the bench, there is 0% chance of resigning him.
i’m of the opinion there is a slim chance, even if it is .01% or something, that he returns to the bulls next year.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
i never said it was a good chance or that i'm optimistic about it
but i don’t think the chance is 0% right now. minute you bench him, it is.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
But his mind is made up already......it does not matter if you start him or bench him
Ben is gone after this season. He already set it up. That is why he took the one year contract so that he could be an unrestricted free agent this off season.
It is too late to cater to Ben. We should have done that already. Management
messed up with Ben this time and he is going to make the Bulls pay for it.
have you talked to him? and he told you this?
i don’t disagree with you, but with the situation the league is in i really wouldnt be too surprised to see ben stay. especially if the bulls go through a bunch of trouble in the off season to be able to afford him. acting like it’s a sure thing when you have no real idea what ben is thinking is just silly
He publicly said that he should get paid the most.....
because he is the leading scorer. This is public record. Deng got a 72 mil contract. Ben feels that he should make more than any Bull, so if Deng gets 72 mil and Ben does not feel like Deng has been as productive as he then he expects to receive something similar or more than what Deng has recieved.
To add insult to injury. Deng has taken steps backwards this year and Gordon has stayed consistent. He again is leading the Bulls in scoring….again he is clutch in crunch time.
While we may as well give Deng the nickname of Casper the Ghost. I can think of ONE game, the overtime game in which we beat cleveland where Deng hit clutch shots for us. Those two three pointers in the overtime. That is it, but Gordon has meant more to us in terms of winning games than Deng.
And he knows this. He don’t have to tell me anything. He has told everybody if we are listening. There are games in which Deng is on the bench when there is time for a big play and his number is not called by Vinny, but he is making 72 million.
Ben saw that and decided to take a one year deal and leave as a unrestricted free agent.
or if you believe some reports
Gordon eventually took the deal after the deadline and the Bulls pulled it off the table.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 21, 2009 7:21 PM CST up reply actions
Why would they pull it off of the table if they wanted to keep him?
I think that was a critical mistake by Bulls Management and it will cost us Ben Gordon.
Because
You could possibly get him cheaper in the offseason, we’re acting like this guy is scoring at an elite level, 20ppg isn’t elite when your game has as many holes as Bens, now 25ppg that is elite scoring at its finest
now 25.4 points
is even more elite-er.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 23, 2009 5:47 PM CST up reply actions
That move by management was a mistake....they made it where they
could not even trade him to get anything of value back. Ben will walk away free and we will be left with nothing in return for him.
Ok so why aren't we talking about possibilities of trading Deng this offseason?
Isn’t it true that Pax looked into something involving Deng with Portland before the deadline?
booo
you have nothing to back that up
Gordon just said in a recent interview that it’s “about the money”. If the Bulls offer more money than anyone else, he’ll stay.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I agree somewhat
but the Bulls don’t have a right to ‘match’. And I doubt Gordon will wait for the Bulls to do so while dealing with whoever is in charge with the Bulls: decisiveness is not their strong suit.
So I think they’d have to be at least a couple million-per better than an outside offer, especially if they’re holding on to Hinrich AND Salmons as insurance.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 21, 2009 7:27 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not saying it's likely.
I haven’t thought Gordon was going to return since the negotiations started going sour last year.
I do think that if the team is winning and the only offers out there are the MLE well, ya never know.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Are fans so starved to get a 2-guard that’s 6’6 that we’re ready to make the argument of grooming someone for a starting spot who most of us honestly haven’t seen play?
No, and that wasn’t my point at all. In fact, I said several times that Ben was the better player. But, most likely, John Salmons is gonna be our starting shooting guard next year. It’s not like I, personally traded for him, I’m just sayin’. And once again, this is an argument I really can’t win, cause someone’s gonna keep coming back and say: “play the best guy”. And, like I said above, that’s fine, but I would rather see the guy that’s gonna be here long term.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 6:57 PM CST up reply actions
you don't know that they plan on keeping salmons, though, either, do you?
Has he become untouchable somehow?
There was supposedly a lot of interest in him from winning teams this year. If they offer a pick or two and some unguaranteed players, he could be gone in a heart beat this summer.
And I don’t think it’s “likely” that Salmons is the starting SG next year. I think combined, one of Gordon or Hinrich will be starting instead of Salmons.
And I mean, long-term, really? For a guy with an ETO after next year? If he does start next year and puts up 20 ppg on the Bulls (and is the ballhog that he is), he might opt out and try to get one more multi-year deal. If he does that, you’d rather sacrifice the playoffs this year, and ANY chance of re-signing Gordon, just for the very small and improbable chance that John Salmons plays a little better for one year? That seems rather ridiculous.
But this still comes back to one basic point of which your argument is based upon: John Salmons is 29 years old. He is what he is. He’ll be the same exact player next year whether he plays 20-25 mpg this year or 30-35 mpg this year. There’s no reason to sacrifice winning games this year for making no difference towards the future.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I'm just playing the percentages
I think I have a WAY better chance of being correct that Salmons will be starting next year than you. saying we’re gonna re-sign Ben. I just don’t see how anyone can actually think that it’s gonna happen.
Can somebody please give me one sign, JUST ONE, that points to the Bulls keeping Ben? Every single thing we’ve seen and heard points to this guy running out of here the first chance he gets. So, if you guys want to live in that world, go right ahead, but I’m not gonna join you,
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
I've been convinced since last summer that Gordon is going to leave.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I just completely, 100% disagree with your underlying premise.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
It's really subjective
You are right, IF you only care about winning games. As for me, I just have kinda already detached myself from Ben and am ready to see the next guy, as long as the next guy isn’t way worse, which I don’t think Salmons is. Seeing this team make a run for the seventh or eighth seed, then get their ass kicked by the Celtics or Cavs just isn’t enough to get me to only care about results.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 7:57 PM CST up reply actions
Also, I've seen Ben, I know what he can do
I haven’t seen Salmons. If he’s really good, I’d like to see it. If he blows, I’d like to see it. The quicker these guys get evaluated in their intended role, the better.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 8:00 PM CST up reply actions
What if it gets them to a 6th seed and a chance to face Orlando?
Or even to a fifth seed where they can might face Atlanta? They’re only 4 1/2 games back w/ 27 games left. Look at their last 12 games. They could go 8-4 or 9-3 real easy.
If they could do that, and then have a legitimate chance at getting to the 2nd round, is that worth it?
Plus, you seeing what they can do is actually pretty darn irrelevant. There is six years of footage (or whatever it is) that Salmons has.
Your underlying premise (apart from Gordon leaving) is that playing Salmons 10 minutes more now will make him a better player next year. I just don’t think there’s any real basketball history to show that for a high-usage 29-year-old that creates his own shot. To paraphrase the great Dusty Baker: He is what he is.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
"Seeing what he can do" in relation to the team, not on his own
While you are right that players don’t magically change at twenty nine years old. I think you’d admit that certain players fit certain teams better than others. Just take a look at Shawn Marion.
I’m also not saying that playing Salmons more will make him better, I’m saying that it gives more time on the floor with his new teammates. Particularly Rose, which is important. And since Rose is starting and Salmons would be coming off the bench in your scenario, they really wouldn’t be playing together at the one and two all that much and I would like to see a lot of that going into the off season.
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 8:16 PM CST up reply actions
But Salmons and Gordon are similar players this year...
…on offense anyway. Not identical but similar enough that it’s not going to be a big change for Rose to have to make.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Nice Dusty reference btw
"That's a spicy meatball-a!" - Vinny Del Negro
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 21, 2009 8:17 PM CST up reply actions
I don't really care about the next guy.
This whole year is about Rose and that is what most of us have thought from the time he was drafted. And I’d like to see Rose win some games, get some swagger, and go into the playoffs. I am tired of Rose being used to losing, having the lineups experimented with, and not giving him opportunities since he is obviously ready for them right now. That is my big thing. Ending this year strong and having Rose lead us into the playoffs after what happened last year is something I want to see happen for him and the team. Gordon is the SG in that scenario. Even if Gordon leaves us after this year Rose will still get a positive out of it and for me that is enough. Next year Rose will be that much better and we can use training camp to pull things together. Who knows, even if Gordon isn’t there come training camp Salmons might still not be our starting SG next season.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Kirk scored 31 points in the 4th?
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Not what I meant.
It was Derrick who was on the floor with Kirk in the 4th on the night he scored the 31. :-)
He played with Gordon in that 4th quarter
until the four or so minute mark when they put Rose in. After which Rose only got 4 points off of free throws after the game was already locked in. He had a great game that night, but a lot of it was done without Rose out there, not with. Not really proving any chemistry playing with Rose as a SG. If anything it indicates he should be starting on another team that needs a PG.
http://www.nba.com/games/20090218/CHIMIL/playbyplay.html
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
But how do we know for sart because he's earned it and deal with next year next year. If Salmons iure BG won't be back?
I don’t think it’s just safe to assume that and as a result, impose that onto this season. I say let BG continue to start because he deserves to. And if Salmons really is that good and is the answer, then waiting until next year to start shouldn’t be a problem.
That was an excellent review by Tom
It jives with my impression of Salmons from pouring over the stats and a few video clips. So offensively he’s a Chris Douglas-Roberts type for those of us who watched Memphis games during the lead up to the draft. Decent athlete, but not explosive. A 1on 1 player. Can slash and finish well, despite not being explosive. Takes the pull up jumper off the dribble. It makes perfect sense that type of player is better starting and playing big minutes. He plays better because he’s starts when other guys are injured so he’s the top option. 1 on 1 players typically have a hard time scoring effectively as a role players unless the offensive caters to them when they’re in the game. A Chris-Douglas Roberts dominates in summer league as the 1st option, but struggles to be a role player in the NBA where there’s number of guys ahead of him in the pecking order. These types of guys tend to hurt offenses if they can’t get into the flow of the game, which would help explain the bad offensive +/-, and partly is the reasoning behind Douglas-Roberts falling to the 2nd round.
Defensively Tom’s description makes sense as well. In general team defense is more important than man defense so he could be guarding his man well, hurting the team overall. That could effect could be really pronounced on a team like Kings with their collection of horrid defenders. The Bulls for all their defensive problems are league average bad, not last in the league bad like the Kings. So Salmons potentially could have a much more positive effect defensively here, and offensively as well if used correctly.
Going in my plan would be to play Gordon and Salmons together as little as possible. That would be too much conflict in roles. I definitely never put Rose, Gordon, and Salmons out there together. Defensively I make sure there’s at least two, preferably three, other good team defenders on the floor with him. This is an odd situation. I probably don’t play him more than 20 minutes per game because he’s going to be a liability in a lot of situations,but very effective in a few situations. So if I’m Paxson and Vinny, I’ve sat him down by now and told him that there likely won’t be a lot of minutes this season, but if he deals with that situation well he could be starting next season. I think Vinny has gotten a lot better, but if there’s a situation he’s going to screw up it’s going to be this one because you have to be very aware of who’s in the game with Salmons for him to be effective. At least that’s how I see it now, maybe my view will change after watching him play more.
by Scotter on Feb 21, 2009 8:19 PM CST reply actions 9 recs
Um
Coach the bulls…please??? Recd by the way….(although you dont need it, your already green)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 21, 2009 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
We're on the same page for a number of reasons +1
If Salmons is smart, he wants BG to start and play really well; increases Ben’s value and makes his future here less likely. Also, we now have a nice balance of players who are defensively or offensively oriented and can balance our rotations. To use Pax’s phrase, it’s VDN’s job to mesh the talent. I was thinking along the lines of:
Miller should play with Deng and Hinrich; maybe Salmons and Tim T.
Noah and Ty should play with Rose, Salmons and BG.
Miller’s defensive role would be against the bigs that can body up JN too easily, so don’t count on a lot of help d. Offense comes inside out.
Noah and Ty can back up Rose’s and Gordon’s weaknesses on the ball. The offense comes from the wings with this group, frontcourt cleans up.
Haven’t thought it all the way through, but that’s how I see this group meshing and keeping all the key parts involved.
by California Al on Feb 22, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
Great read
..on 2/18/09, Noc was gone..and on the next day, Larry "The Chucker" was just a bad dream...
Paxson on Gordon: "We have not ruled out making a deal over the summer ... But that's down the road ... I respect and value Ben."
Am I delusional? Why is everyone assuming it’s a fait accompli that Ben will be gone next year?
Based on Paxson’s own words quoted above, it seems he is going to make a strong effort to retain him if the right deal can be swung. It seems the handwriting on the wall may be spelling Hinrich’s name since the Bulls can get more value in return for him because of Ben’s status.
I view the acquisition of Salmon as more of an insurance policy than a future piece because of his age and their intention of building the future around D Rose and Ben being 3 years younger.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
That handwriting
must be of a doctors….hard to tell what the hell is actually being spelled out…well only know for sure when paxson decides to read it out loud…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 21, 2009 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
doesn't the larry bird exception
mean the bulls can offer more money to Gordon than anyone else? With this economy, is anyone really going to spend $70 million on him?
His Bird Rights expired
He’s another unrestricted FA, which means he can sign wherever there is an offer. If the Spurs offer him 1 million a year with the lure of a title….he could go there (highly unrealistic scenario, but you never know).
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 22, 2009 12:09 AM CST up reply actions
the bulls can still offer the most years though, yeah?
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Are you sure?
I thought the Bird rights was something he only lost if he was traded to another team this year.
I'm pretty sure he should have bird rights next year
Derrick Rose-2009 ROTY Tyrus Thomas-2009 MIP...hope I'm at least half right
by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Feb 22, 2009 8:07 AM CST up reply actions
He'll still have his Bird Rights, which only means the Bulls can still offer him a contract despite being over the cap
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Oh, ok
But he can still leave though, which I guess was my underlying point while being completely wrong about something else.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 22, 2009 1:58 PM CST up reply actions
He still has bird rights.
The Bulls just can’t keep him if he doesn’t want to stay.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
If the economy was good
nobody was not going to spend $70mill on BG
alright, that's enough.
parsing that comment hurt my brain and you keep freaking jumping into threads and saying BG sucks in 700 different ways in every conversation you enter.
Plus when I read your name I keep thinking TOTP and then thinking your name is lowest of the pops, which doesn’t make any sense.
so long.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 23, 2009 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
Lowest Of The Poops? ;)
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Feb 23, 2009 8:25 PM CST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Days of NBA Lives: Wherein Roy Hibbert tap-dances to Maine
- Grizzlies Valentine’s Day cards are the key to love
- Kevin Love would like the NBA to take the MLB’s approach on All-Star games
- Kobe Bryant fires a few hilarious salvos at Jeremy Lin
- Brandon Jennings states the obvious regarding his 2014 free agency, everyone goes nuts
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
