Amare talk 2/11: More fascinating insight re: Suns F.O.
[Bumping up a fanpost as the designated main Amare discussion thread for the day. There's also this report of Portland's very strong offer -ed.]
The drama is never ending here at the home of the 2009 NBA All-Star Game.
What did I do to deserve this?
9 months ago
marionette
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There's a word for this that comes to mind. Any guesses?
This makes (sorta) my first FS, and I guess I’m like a self-appointed Suns “expert” here or something, so gimme your thoughts and I’ll try to check in and maintain a presence if anyone cares to have dialogue on the current Suns’ brass and/or their desperation.
Obviously there are many parallels and similarities with the Bulls, many of which I’ve only recently realized as I’ve paid closer attention, largely helped by B-a-B.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 7:37 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Suns have exposed their hand
we should be able to get Amare on OUR terms. If the article is true then Amare will be wearing a different uniform in a few days. Hopefully a Bulls Uniform.
by Bart71 on Feb 11, 2009 8:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
isn’t the entire association thinking this? That they’ll be the killer shark?
From PHX, I think they’re all hoping if it happens, it’ll happen in the summer and not in panic mode. But if player are dumped for expirings+, doesn’t it have to happen before the deadline?
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
BTW
The secret word today was: DYSFUNCTIONAL. Sorry there were no winners. ;-(
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
TYrus’s play of late makes me nervous….
I’m fine with Noah going….but Tyrus is making me nervous and seems on the cusp of surpassing LMA soon and for a while to come.
I know it’s only been what 7-8 games, but it’s been consistent play and he’s been a real force, and is 22…with still a ton of untapped potential/upside.
I’d like to keep him off the table.
It is interesting to see that LaFrentz’s contract might be a piece that allows a team to get a Caron Butler (with likely some other smaller/young piece) or Mike Miller type striaght up, for all those folks who acted like I was insane to think the unlegend’s contract will be worth more next year, see this. Larry’s a better player too than LaFrentz and him staying “nice” on the sidelines might be good for him and us if he continues that way the rest of this year.
by majoyenrac on Feb 11, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's a little different
because 80% of lafrentz’s salary is paid by insurence, which makes the amount of money that much easier to swallow
by jpm356 on Feb 11, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I get that
But I also know that 2010 FA class approaches next year and I think the cap saving deal might nullify a bit of that…
by majoyenrac on Feb 11, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree regarding TT
He is 22, has no major injuries and we do not know his potential. He was a real force last night down the stretch on both ends.
by chgobr on Feb 11, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Finally, Reinsdorf's renowned negotiating skills have a chance to help the franchise
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 11, 2009 8:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't the Chairman
play mr. good guy and tell Sarver he’s playing the negotiating game poorly and then walk away?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Feb 11, 2009 9:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is bad news, not good news.
I don’t think we’ve got the horses unless Reinsdorf decides to go into the luxury tax. The info about what Sarver is looking for and who he’s contacting (teams under or due to be under the cap) suggests shedding salary is his strongest motivation. For the bulls to get the suns under the tax, they almost have to go over it themselves.
And I don’t think that’s gonna happen.
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2009 8:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
What's the bad news? That it's unlikely to happen. I say, that's "good".
I’m glad it’s looking like you were right all along with it being ALL about money. 1) It makes a deal less likely, which I like (I flip-flop on this every hour, I think) and 2), they won’t have to give up as much when push comes to shove.
Kerr: I gotta get Noah.
Paxson: Not gonna do it. How about Simmons instead?
Kerr: I want Noah, or I’ll keep Stoudemire.
Paxson: Go ahead. We’re under the luxury tax. My owner is happy with me.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 9:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I flip flop a lot too
Hell, after watching Deng put up three straight clinkers I’m back to toying with the idea of including him and making Tyrus untouchable. How crazy is that. I’m afraid to put that on the public record even.
But I do wonder just how much better we (the Bulls) could do by re-framing the issue. Consider going into the LT to purchase Amare this year as a capital investment. Baseball players get bought and sold all the time. I don’t know if Reinsdorf has done much of that because I don’t follow baseball much, but as a general proposition, if you’re paying more money, you should have to give up less talent.
So hey, Mr. Sarver, I’ll go over the tax and put you under it, but I’m not going to give you Tyrus or Deng to do that. I still have my doubts that Reinsdorf would do that, but if I’m Pax, I’d make the pitch in those terms. A one time investment could pay off handsomely down the road (of course, that didn’t sell with getting Gasol).
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2009 9:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It would help if Deng actually
played, especially late in games. I couldn’t believe that VDN left Noc out there for the final 12 minutes, after multiple timeouts. We got lucky that Sheed felt like playing streetball yesterday.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 9:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yikes
It was worse than that too. It was Noc for three and half minutes at the 4 and seven and a half minutes AT THE 3.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Feb 11, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ya
he really disappeared in the 4th last night! I’m remembering about 4 games ago Deng really came through after not scoring much in the first 3. And then the game with the 2 threes he hit, so he’s come up big in at least two wins they mightn’t have had without him…
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Streetball, Lmao
Sheed has a scoring limit, he is one of those players that get terrified when he gets close to scoring 25points
by LOTP on Feb 11, 2009 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Cuz he doesn’t want to be viewed as “the man” despite the fact that he’s been their most talented player since he arrived in Detroit.
A true enigma (Sheed is), he can play wtih the best of them whenever he wants, has a myriad of gifts guys who try harder would kill for, is a complete head case, is a true superstar in games when he wants to be, but oddly doesn’t want to be known as the man so he doesn’t always play up to his skills.
I don’t think he exactly dogs it either, it’s just in given situations he disappears….I think he’s insane. He’s done this since Portland too.
by majoyenrac on Feb 11, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, I think Sheed was told to get a shot up quick for the two-for-one.
Their plan was to feed him in the post, obviously, which would have led to a pretty quick shot. Since we broke it up, though, the plan should have changed. It was a bonehead play, but I think it was Sheed trying to do what he was “supposed” to do. He’s a smart enough player to know that that shot was not a high-percentage one.
by arjoseph on Feb 11, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Am I allowed to use sentence one as my signature?
:)
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Feb 11, 2009 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thinking about changin'
what you’ve got then, ’eh?
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just looking for other BABers
that see the signs I see in Thomas and Noah that are not as easily replaceable as they say.
I see Gordon and Deng as players far easier to replace than Thomas and Noah. Deng was still awesome on the road trip. But I gotta see him keep it together and especially at home.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Feb 11, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh,
I was referring to your current stance on VDN. Is that included in the flip-flop?
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 9:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I still think Vinny should be canned
Although, I ought to add some of those reportage nuggets about the assistants perhaps being part of the problem.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Feb 11, 2009 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm one of those people that see the signs. I say point blank that
I don’t make that deal. I think right now I keep TT over Deng and I’m serious. I’ve seen enough of the Deng show. He’s not an impact player in this league. TT can be and at times is.
by Dils on Feb 11, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But Amare is definately an impact player
although I’m with you 100% on keeping TT, even if (in the estimation of BaB) he “sucks” the next 8 games.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sp: definitely
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you see a way
to replace 34% of our offense, yet keep 15% of it?? Yep, makes total sense to me…
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Feb 11, 2009 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Guys that can attack the rim and three point shooters
are all over this league. There a dime a dozen.
What’s hard to find are guys that are young, force shot adjustments every time they’re attempted in the paint, that rebound, that make their free throws, can finish, and will excel in a team defensive strategy to utilize their best skills.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Feb 11, 2009 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but apparently score no points while doing those other things...
so again, as long as YOU think it makes sense to lose 34% of our total production, then yippee, I guess we’re on to something…
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Feb 11, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus
Is on the cusp of getting much better and might have years of production in areas that Deng and Gorodn lack (solid on and off ball defense, passing, shooting, shot blocking, and athleticism).
Deng is consistent but without the often highs.
Gordon can be fantastic in a game or 3, but bad in other 1 to 3 as he’s a pure one trick pony (great at that one trick, will probably kill us coming up big as our opponent next year too), but still a one trick pony. If only he cuold have improved that ball handling…..
by majoyenrac on Feb 11, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Deng is easily replaceable
not sure about BG. Even though his game is pretty one-dimensional it’s tough to just find one of the best 3-point shooters in the game.
Derrick Rose-2009 ROTY Tyrus Thomas-2009 MIP...hope I'm at least half right
by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Feb 11, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The whole point of dumping Deng is to be able to sign one of the best 30pt shooters in the game.
Trust me, when Rose figures out when to dish the ball after penetration like he did clumsly last night, we’re going to be praying that it’s Gordon shooting it. If we get Amare, you can kiss Gordon and 2010 goodbye.
by Dils on Feb 11, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who is available though?
Derrick Rose-2009 ROTY Tyrus Thomas-2009 MIP...hope I'm at least half right
by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Feb 11, 2009 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And the conversation would continue.
Kerr: There’s no reason to get chippy. I mean, my owner is happy with me, too.
Paxson: No he’s not.
Kerr: He—
Paxson: No he’s not, no he’s not, I can’t hear you.
Kerr: Well… the Suns have the pieces, and Bulls want the pieces. I mean, first D’Antoni, and now, how’s that new coach working out for you?
Paxson: How’s that trade for Shaq working out for you?
Kerr: I was kidding, John, this isn’t personal.
Paxson: Everybody knows you only had success with the Bulls because of me!
Kerr: Um… what?
Paxson: You were just imitating me! I was the outside shooter that complimented Michael the best, not you! I hit the key shots to win the first AND third championships! You only hit one game winner for a championship!
Kerr: Ok. You know what? Let’s just drop this—
Paxson: And then I became a braodcaster first, then you did! And then I became a GM, and then you did! I’m better than you! My owner loves me!
Kerr: John, are you— are you crying?
Paxson: No!
Kerr: Oh for heaven’s sake…Oh, that’s Michael on the other line. Just hang on, ok?
Paxson: Don’t you talk to him! He’s my friend, not yours! Don’t you talk to him! Hello!? Hello!?
Yeah… You’re welcome, B-a-B.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Feb 11, 2009 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL...Pax wasn't crying. The sobbing is coming from Bulls fans who
suffered along watching TT’s and Noah’s growing pains and are finally seeing their growth spurt after surviving the terrible two’s but instead of being allowed to enjoy this happy phase, are being threatened to have them snatched from us in exchange for a disgruntled, rebellious, teenager who may very well fly the coop in a couple of years.
Save our money for 2010, agree to keep our foster child (Gordon) and adopt a big strong center like Chris Kamen with the accumulated savings resulting from not lavishing it all on a spoiled brat named Amare. I know he can be charming but when he’s pouting, everyone around him suffers, including the GM.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on Feb 11, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They're going to need to get a third team involved
Hopefully the Blazers actually want Kirk because Sarver would love this deal
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 11, 2009 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Saw
that before…. Man, I could take out full page ads telling everyone how cool Tyrus and Thabo are and they’d still want to string up Kerr or Sarver both!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or if they want Kirk and Deng
This works better
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 11, 2009 10:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gee,
isn’t that worse?? Admittedly just looking at the talent exchange…. realizing the awesome “value” of Raef (why is it RLEC? Raef LeCenter?) plus Gooden+Simmons. And this one dumps JRich’s big bucks too. Hell, maybe it’s better then?
All I sense is that Kerr is truly struggling with how this is going to be perceived by the fanbase, that he could easily do more long term harm than good (in strictly financial terms, with season tickets), and the his college buddy Bob isn’t exactly helping.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Raef Lafrentz's Expiring Contract
--Torch
by torch on Feb 11, 2009 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
T Y T !!!!!!
;-)
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
Thanks.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Feb 11, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bulls keep Tyrus and Noah to share the frontcourt w/ Amare
Rose, BG, and Richardson on the perimeter would be awesome. If they could find someone to take Noc or Hughes for an expiring to open space to resign BG and get a coach who can get the team to play D, Bulls could be pretty well set for a couple seasons.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 11, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OKAY!
I like it for the Bulls already! TT, Noah, and Amare all with around 33min or so at the 4/5 would be crazy!
Just thinking that Kerr needs to do better for the fanbase here…
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kerr needs to do better for the fanbase, but will Sarver let him if a deal like this is out there?
Or this one?
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 11, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
More three ways for me hmmm?
I wonder why they wouldn’t do Shaq for Marbury straight up? Seems to solve all problems, and you’d get a backup PG for a few months too, LOL! NY would make a nice (though pricey) stop on Shaq’s retirement tour, no?
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if they just do Shaq/Marbury, they save $20M
If they do this 3 way, they save $35M
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 11, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And for that extra $15M
Kerr gets to explain Amare + Shaq (all-stars) for Tyrus + Gooden. LOL!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what he gets for working for a friend
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 11, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm unsure
what comment you’re referring to. I got some recs for this, but you’ll need to scroll down to 85% near the bottom. (I don’t know how to link just a section.) Look for the green.
I was all bottled up reading comments until then. Now that, coupled with a little encouragement, and I find I’ve hardly been able to stop!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This should be a link directly to the comment.
link.
by Scotter on Feb 11, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Man,
what a mess! Next time it’s locked up, I’ll just log out…. Groundhog Day!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 1:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"I'm unsure" re: tyger (below)
not snley (above). And thx scotter/yfBB.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Phoenix is keen on dumping...
How about this!
by 72-10 on Feb 11, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
helps each teams needs
Portland is desperate for a point guard, Phoenix wants to dump salary and the bulls need a center… our backup point guard would suck but Rose is going to play 90% of the time anyway.
by 72-10 on Feb 11, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
that sure takes it too the core of the matter!
As I scroll down through these comments, I’m digging the cosmic entropy, the way the initial spark of stories and comments become more and more divergent opinions, and ever less specific in nature…
But as for the trade, again Kerr would have to think he’ll be tarred and feathered if he trades the fans’ ASG starter for ONLY expirings. Good luck Steve! Trade Shaq first! Or instead!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Portland is not desperate for anything
I don’t see Phx or Portland doing that trade. The Suns have to get at least two players they can use, and Portland would have 4 point guards.
Karma
by Sabonis4Ever on Feb 12, 2009 5:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Turn Bayless into Sergio (who fits better in Phx system, and should have been theirs anyway) and you have a great deal
The Suns would love Bayless because he went to Arizona but the Blazers are very high on him.
Karma
by Sabonis4Ever on Feb 12, 2009 5:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
I thought this too, but do those teams with cap space want to spend? Will they?
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Bulls can't, or shouldn't, beat a Bayless, Aldridge, LaFrentz package.
What the Bulls would have to give up to beat that is too much.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 9:01 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Tyger, the Bulls Can't beat that offer.
The expiring contract is greater than anything the Bulls can offer…not to mention the talent level from Portland is greater than anything the Bulls have reportedly offered.
Chris Kaman is available as a consolation prize…Brad Miller is YFBB’s white whale…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 11, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think they would be on par with the Portland offer
if they add Noah (to Thomas, Thabo, Gooden, Simmons).
They are not as good in terms of expiring (9mil against 14), but the young talent in return is slightly better (Thomas/Noah/Thabo against Aldridge/Bayless).
The Game chose him !
by Diabolo on Feb 11, 2009 9:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't mean I think they should add Noah !
The Game chose him !
by Diabolo on Feb 11, 2009 9:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A four for one trade will not work.
I guess the Suns could add fillers, though.
From what it sounds like to me, the Suns would be more enticed by RLEC than Gooden, because of that $5M in savings. That is a lot of money to a franchise worries about money…The Bulls cannot offer that.
From a talent position, the Bulls could add Luol to an offer with Tyrus and Gooden, but I feel that is too much to give up….and to Tyger’s point, they should not offer that much.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 11, 2009 9:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rose, Thomas, Gooden beats that offer.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 9:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It only beats the offer in terms of talent.
Not in terms of money saved.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 11, 2009 9:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well a Bayless, Aldridge, LaFrentz for Stoudemire doesn't work.
So there’d have to be something more included. And I guess it depends on how much insurance is paying for LaFrentz. the above trade w/ Admundson costs the Suns $2.6 million more in yearly salaries. How that comes out pro-rated and w/ insurance, I don’t know.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
insurance
is paying 80% of Lafrentz’s deal
by JSlakov on Feb 11, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oKay, so on completely simple and ridiculous calculations
the Bayless, aldridge, lafrentz for stoudemire admundson deal
over the
rose, thomas, gooden for stoudemire deal
would save the Suns $2 million dollars this year. (pro-rating salaries to the trade deadline and all that)
yeah, it definitely begs for a priority check for sarver at that point
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 11:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm fine
with Kaman, would rather have Miller, but Kaman will come at a much better price.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 9:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The more I weigh this trade...
The more I feel like we are partially betting against ourselves on this one. Even though there are a lot of teams looking to add Amare, I feel like even some of our stinker packages are better than the best offers some other teams are making.
I am starting to believe that Tyrus is untouchable. I think it would make more sense to hold on to him and let him and Derrick develop alongside one another. I would also like to see what Noah could do after a second (hopefully serious) offseason.
I’m becoming increasingly skeptical that this trade makes us better in the long run. It feels like Wallace/Chandler version 2.0… or even worse J Kidd/Devin Harris.
Offer any combo of Noc, Kirk, Hughes, Gooden, Simmons, Thabo, Gordon, and picks and see if they’ll take that. If they don’t then what have we really lost besides Amare – a knee?
In the offseason/next year we can package Hughes expiring with Noc and Kirk for a difference maker. (and if we can’t do that we’ll at least have the $ to make a run at some 2010 FA’s)
Keep Noah, Tyrus, Deng, and Rose as a young nucleus and give each of them 35-40 mins a game for the rest of the season. See if they can get you in the playoffs and see what you have from there. I feel that now would be a mistake to give up on all of our young talent especially since they have begun to show what they are capable of night in and night out.
by KmartLUC on Feb 11, 2009 10:06 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I just don't get how Tyrus is untouchable when we can get Amar'e. Get real guys.
by bullsfaninbigapple on Feb 11, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We're already poor defensively... why do we feel the need to get worse?
by KmartLUC on Feb 11, 2009 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you need to take a look at this thread
http://www.blogabull.com/2009/2/11/756045/statistical-analysis-of-am
we wouldn’t necessarily be getting “worse”
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Feb 11, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt
his defense gets too much criticism, and his offense too much praise.
Amare is really, really good. Obviously. When he’s motivated, he has an impressive hunger to score, and that can carry over to extended effort in his rebounding and defense. You know, the things Tyrus seems focused on naturally. But it’s about what we see, and then don’t see much of the time with Stat. Not his stats.
It’s Amare’s motivation and $120M price tag that makes me not want to surrender TT for him.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i couldn't find your "detailed comment" abuot amare, have a link?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm unsure
what comment you’re referring to, but I got some recs for this, but you’ll need to scroll about 85% down to find the green. (Don’t know if or how a section can be linked.)
I was all bottled up on this topic, since then I find I’ve hardly been able to stop myself. All from a little encouragement and desire to fill in the blanks.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
here
http://www.blogabull.com/2009/2/9/753611/bulls-complete-road-trip-4#12097023
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
for future reference to link a comment, click on the time stamp...
…for the comment i’m replying to, that’d be : “Feb 11, 2009 1:15 PM CST” click on that and it will give you the comment’s specific url in your address window above (or right-click and save link)
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
thanks, wondered why I could never get that to work
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 11, 2009 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Got it.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree Kmart. I'm weary of Deng but I do like the idea of standing Pat and seeing how this season plays oot.
This sounds crazy but what’’s the hurry? 2010 will soon come and a lot of players will be available. By then you have a 22 year old Rose, a 24 yr old Tyrus and a 25 yrold Noah. At that point you can still get Amare if not Bosh and you’ll have a better idea of what this team needs. Ironically this is the time that Pax should actually do nothing. Unless he can trade Noc and Kirk
by Dils on Feb 11, 2009 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can almost understand
the Suns panic much easier than the Bulls’. More parallels/irony. At least Reinsdorf doesn’t ninny around to other owners behind his GMs back.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope Amare is traded
to the Pistons. Four games against him for sure and probably more in the playoffs is a situation I would love to find the Bulls in.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Feb 11, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus has
played him well. In a small sample size. :-)
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
har har
is this going to be your new thing? Do you not even consider Stoudemire an average player at this point? I understand the debate of dealing Thomas, Noah, or both for him, but the hyperbole is increasing in terms of denigrating Amare as a player. I agree with you that LeBron James is better.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now is another time I feel the need to point out my sig
If anyone is ever confused by an NBAO post, read my sig and then you’ll understand why.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Feb 11, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
his observations are WAY off
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Feb 11, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Waffling Badly
Wow, I am waffling badly on this one. People are right that in 2010 we can make our runs at players. Unfortunately Paxson and Co. have done an atrocious job of marketing Chicago and the Bulls to NBA players as a destination city. So, will we really be in the running?? Ok if the Suns take TT, Gooden and Thabo are we really not going to pull the trigger? I think the main issues are whether Amare can produce at a high level for several more years or whether he loses effectiveness in his late 20s. He does not seem the type to lead a team to a championship but neither does Tyrus. Again TT value is high when historically low and Amare’s value is low when historically high. These are always the best times to trade…
by Jud Buechler on Feb 11, 2009 10:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Forbes just reported
Chicago is the 3rd most miserable city in the United States.
The only thing that might be keeping this boat floating is Grabowskism.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Feb 11, 2009 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I question the results
perhaps they were polling BaB readers?
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
It’s so upbeat in here!
And going into the city always used to seem quite romantic to me! (For true.)
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to get too off topic
but what a horrible “study” (like most similar Forbes studies). Disregarding the many other questionable criteria, is anyone really any more/less miserable because of the sales tax rate?
by JeffD on Feb 11, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That poll is absolutely ludicrous.
By Forbes’ irrational, arbitrary standards, any great metropolis is “miserable.”
Hell, NY is fourth on the list. Los Angeles is sixth.
These free agents should clearly sign with…the Thunder. Oklahoma City baby. No misery, just Super Walmarts and rodeos as fas as the eye can see. It’s utopia.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
That list is stupid
Chicago is miserable because of a high sales tax and shitty public transit? Oh noes, shut it down!
I’d rather wait 30 minutes at a Red Line stop and pay 30 dollars for a t-shirt than ever having to step foot inside Detroit for anything besides going towards Winsdor. I don’t exactly see how high sales tax>crumbling auto industry, mayor going to jail.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 11, 2009 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How are we beating Detroit by four spaces in these rankings. Astonishing.
by Jud Buechler on Feb 11, 2009 11:08 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Rare
You rarely see trades between teams in the same conference, but Portland put out a strong offer
by LOTP on Feb 11, 2009 11:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Don't you wonder though, what is real if any of this?
I’m pretty sure Sarver has had propaganda manufactured for him before. I know Reinsdorf has been rumored to do so from my time reading here. GMs and owners can do this to place pressure or gauge interest/get feedback, etc.
Last year’s Shaq deal was effectively “closed” prematurely when it somehow came out before Shaq passed his physical. How could It be (realistically) undone once the PHX and MIA fans heard, and Marion’s suspicions (hopes?) were confirmed?
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's the thing though...
Bayless, Aldridge, and Raef is stronger than anything we can offer, but how bad will Phoenix look when Amare destroys them MULTIPLE times every year?
In terms of finance and young talent it’s a great deal, but in terms of PR (in the very immediate future) it will be a Pandora’s box of nightmares.
Good luck with that Kerr, we’ll see you broadcasting soon enough I’m sure.
"Noc and Amare on D… It works sometimes. Love it live!"
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 11, 2009 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now that Tyrus is starting to average a double double, the Bulls
will trade him for an injury prone superstar whose contract expires in 2010.
Typical timing on the part of Bulls management.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 11:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Injury prone superstar?
Are you talking about Amare? Because he’s only missed the one season after he had microfracture surgery. Since 05-06 Amare has played in 82, 79, and 50 (out of 50 this season) games. It’s your thought process that’s injury prone.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Glad you brought it up
In all my Amare crap that’s one thing I left out, but it has been said here: Bosh misses many more games.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 12:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, while we're on the subject of common misconceptions
The whole “he’s not as good because he’s had the dreaded microfracture surger” argument can stop, unless you’re a surgeon. Because anyone who’s spent more than the 2 minutes it takes to google it should’ve found this:
Microfracture surgery is one of the articular cartilage repair surgical techniques that works by creating tiny fractures in the underlying bone. This causes new cartilage to develop from a so-called super-clot. Microfracture surgery has gained a profile in the sports world in recent years; numerous professional athletes including members of the NBA (most notably Greg Oden and Amar’e Stoudemire), NFL and NHL have undergone the procedure.
The surgery is quick (taking as short as 30 minutes but it is not unusual to take as long as 90 minutes), is minimally invasive, and can have a significantly shorter recovery time than an arthroplasty (knee replacement). Combined with a high rate of success, these factors have caused orthopedic surgeons to use the procedure with increasing frequency.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Holy Jesus Christ.
Did you just cite WIKIPEDIA as a dispositive authority on complex medical issues?
Wikipedia? Really?
And if you are going to cite Wikipedia, go ahead and cite the ENTIRE THING:
"There have been many notable professional athletes who have undergone the procedure. Partially because of the high level of stress placed on the knees by these athletes, the surgery is not a panacea and results have been mixed. Many players’ careers effectively end despite the surgery. However, some players such as Jason Kidd, Steve Yzerman, John Stockton and Zach Randolph 2 have been able to return at or near their pre-surgery form while players Brian Grant, Antonio McDyess, Chris Webber, Allan Houston and Penny Hardaway never regained their old form. Others such as Jamal Mashburn and Terrell Brandon never recovered and retired. Portland Trail Blazers rookie Greg Oden underwent the procedure in early September 2007 and missed the entire 2007-2008 NBA season. At only 19 at the time of the surgery, doctors are confident that he will return to at or near full strength by the 2008-2009 season. 12
In October 2005, young star Amare Stoudemire of the NBA’s Phoenix Suns underwent one of the highest-profile microfracture surgeries to date. He returned to the court in March 2006 and initially appeared to have made a full recovery, but subsequently started feeling stiffness in both knees (his right knee had been overcompensating for the injured left knee). He and the team doctor decided he needed more time to rehab and he did not return until the 2006-2007 NBA season.13 During the 2006-2007 season, Stoudemire returned to form, averaging 20.4 points and 9.6 rebounds per game while playing in all 82 regular-season games and the 2007 NBA All-Star Game. His recent success has brought positive publicity to the procedure, further distancing it from a previous reputation as a possible “career death sentence” in the sports world, though he was one of the youngest of the aforementioned players to undergo the surgery. 14"
As the article clearly states, microfracture surgery is a very serious matter: “most players’ careers effectively end;” “surgery is not a panacea.”
Amare has been the exception to the rule TO DATE. But anyone who thinks it isn’t a concern is a buffoon.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How do you rip me for citing it
then do it youself? Makes no sense. And I’m not saying it isn’t a concern, I’m saying people on BaB act like their Dr. 1958ChiTown and insert their kneejerk analysis like it’s a medical certainty the minute we trade for him his knee is going to cease to function.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No, first I "ripped" you for citing it.
Then, secondly, I “ripped” you for failing to cite it accurately.
Your failure was twofold.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Calmer than you are.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The only reason I didn't cite the whole
thing was to avoid a huge chunk of text, because I know how that can annoy commenters. If you wanna read the whole thing, go to it yourself, or now you can read your huge block of text.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, right, right.
Conveniently, you just happened by pure coincidence to cite the portion that supported your position and exclude the portion that undermined your argument. But it was all done out of altruistic concern for your fellow posters. I see.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Show me the part that undermines my argument. You mean this part?
During the 2006-2007 season, Stoudemire returned to form, averaging 20.4 points and 9.6 rebounds per game while playing in all 82 regular-season games and the 2007 NBA All-Star Game. His recent success has brought positive publicity to the procedure, further distancing it from a previous reputation as a possible "career death sentence" in the sports world, though he was one of the youngest of the aforementioned players to undergo the surgery. 14"
Hardly seems likes its undermining anything I’ve said.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But aren't we talking about that exception?
I mean, he’s fully-recovered. Whether it has a long-term effect, we still don’t know. But those cases cited seem to be: either they recover fully, only well enough to play, or not at all. Stoudemire is clearly in the first group.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I consider Amare a sui generis case. He's unique.
There isn’t any other player who had microfracture surgery at such a young age. Because there are no historical analogues, one can’t be certain of how the surgery will impact him over time. For example, is this year’s decline in production the beginning of a downward trend? We just don’t know.
And because we don’t know how the history of serious injury will affect Amare’s future prospects, I get somewhat nervous at the prospect of trading an emerging TT and/or Noah and/or other pieces for a player with medical issues, a reputation for laziness, and an expiring contract.
Lastly, given their track record, I don’t trust the management of the Bulls to properly weigh these considerations. Look at the Wallace acquisition or the recent coaching searches/hires.
That’s the only point I was making.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Greg Oden.
And honestly, the fact that he was young when he had the surgery is a good things. 9 out of 10 doctors agree.
"Noc and Amare on D… It works sometimes. Love it live!"
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 11, 2009 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a second!
You’re right that Oden had the surgery at a young age, but no one knows how he will fare over the long term.
Now, if Oden had the surgergy in 1988 and went on to a long and produtive career, that would be fantastic proof that Amare could do the same. Unfortunately, there is no examplar like that.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I'd rather Oden had the surgery in 2007 over 1988.
Would you rather have a knee surgery now or in 1988 considering the medical advances since then?
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was joking in that last comment
too in case you don’t realize ChiTown…I think you’ve made your point.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You and Khalid have made valid points as well.
I am not nearly as opposed to the trade as I was when this conversation started.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'd agree with all that, too.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're never fully recovered from microfracture
I commented on this sometime this summer, but I’ll reiterate – I had the surgery last year and talked to my doctor in-depth of the consequences. That Amare is doing fine now does not mean that his new cartilage won’t wear down within the next couple of years. In fact, it probably will because the new stuff is not nearly as flexible and resistant than the original cartilage. And when the new stuff deteriorates you can’t go in and re-do the microfracture – you have to take more drastic measures like a synthetic implant.
The fact that he’s 26 and is most productive due to his explosiveness and athleticism scares me for the short-term future. You’ll note that the list that wikipedia cites as the ‘successes’ all contain players that play under the rim and can still be successful without being explosive. I’m not sure Amare can…
by kig on Feb 11, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought I remember reading that
there’s a time horizon for the surgery. After somewhere between 5-10 years the something would have to be done again. I could be remembering incorrectly. That wasn’t a problem for many of the guys who had at the end of their careers, but Amare would be different. But, maybe he’s an exceptional case given his age at the time of the surgery too. I don’t know, but it’s an interesting question.
by Scotter on Feb 11, 2009 2:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
how old are you? just curious...
20-ish, mid-30’s-ish, or nothing are perfectly acceptable answers.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm 27 right now
26 when I had it. I played pick-up pretty seriously about 4 days a week since high school, and I was a starter on a good high school team, so the level of comp I played against was always pretty good. I was basically given two ultimatums post-op:
1) once rehab was over, go back to playing as much as before – but be ready to go back under the knife in a few years and try out other remedies (implants, injections, etc.) and be prepared for a knee replacement in my 40’s
2) stop participating in high impact sports and live a normal life
I chose number 2 since I didn’t have millions riding on it.
by kig on Feb 11, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL, it's minimally invasive and has a significantly shorter recovery time...
… than a knee replacement!
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bosh looks like he is 105 pounds soaking wet.
But damn I would love to see him on the Bulls.
"Noc and Amare on D… It works sometimes. Love it live!"
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 11, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Amare
is rumored to have a 30 inch waist.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
More importantly...
Do we know his sleeve length and inseam? Somebody check his draft measurments quick!
"Noc and Amare on D… It works sometimes. Love it live!"
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 11, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He has also claimed 2% body fat!
I’d say it’s safe to say he’s both very fit, and prone to hyperbole!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Feb 11, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I am talking about Amare.
Micro-fracture surgery isn’t a tweaked ankle or a even an isolated broken bone. It’s indicative of a serious and degenerative condition that absolutely will impact his long-term durability.
Moreover, your focus on games played per season is ludicrously simplistic. Minutes are the proper metric, not games played. It’s only this season that he has begun to play the same number of minutes per game that he played in the season prior to the microfracture surgery. The season after he returned, he averaged four or five minutes less per game.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You couldn't have timed your comment any better,
because I was just looking at the MP of Amare vs other “superstar” forwards and here’s how it pans out in the 3 years after his surgery:
Minutes Played
Stoudemire: 7,220
Bosh: 7,031
Garnett: 6,912
Dalembert: 6,485
I could keep going but I think the point has been made…
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Crickets.
"Noc and Amare on D… It works sometimes. Love it live!"
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 11, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The only point that has been made in this thread is that your capacity for
logic seems damaged.
Your analysis lacks sense.
Why are you comparing Amare’s minutes to other power forwards when we are debating the impact the injury had ON AMARE.
The fact of the matter is that Amare was playing 36 MPG prior to the injury and didn’t average equal or more minutes per game until this season.
In any event, none of this is relevant to the key question facing the Bulls: how will the injury affect Amare’s long term health and career prospects? Has the injury shortened Amare’s career horizon? Will he still be a viable superstar in four or five years? If they Bulls are going to trade two or more lottery picks for Amare, they absolutely have to answer that question. Otherwise, they are mortgaging their future for a short term window of opportunity that they likely won’t be able to capitalize on.
And I assure you that, in aswering the questions about Amare’s future, Bulls management won’t simply be satisified with the fact that he played a certain number of games in the last few seasons.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So...
Ignore the fact that Amare averages more minutes than ANY other player on that list, but instead FOCUS on the fact that the year after he had surgery he played 4/5 less per game? And only now is playing what he used to? But again, forget that it’s still, and always has been, more than EVERYONE else on that list?
"Noc and Amare on D… It works sometimes. Love it live!"
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 11, 2009 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Setting aside arguments about interpretting the minutes stat, I really
don’t see how it is germane.
The Bulls have to answert this question: how does Amare’s knee surgery impact his long term prospects.
Presumably, the Bulls are only going to make this trade if they have some assurances from Amare that he will stay after 2010. Otherwise, the deal doesn’t appear to be very attractive. Why trade Tyrus/Noah if Amare is going to leave after his contract expires?
Since that is the case, the long-term health status of Amare is key. The fact that Amare played a certain number of games over the last few years doesn’t have any real bearing on that long-term inquiry. In fact, if I were playing devil’s advocate, I would argue that all of those minutes are a concern, not a reassurance. On top of having a history of serious injury, Amare has logged substantial minutes that could further limit his future production.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So...
Now you think minutes played is a bad indication of his status. A far cry from what you wrote earlier “Minutes are the proper metric, not games played.”
Honestly, why don’t you just say you don’t like Amare Stoudemire and be done with it?
I want to keep Tyrus too btw :)
"Noc and Amare on D… It works sometimes. Love it live!"
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 11, 2009 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
We get it ChiTown, you are not in favor of trading for Amare. Hell, neither am I when you weigh all the other possible moves the Bulls could make that would allow them to keep TT, Noah or both.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Minutes are the proper metric of the impact the injury had on
Amare and how long it took him to regain his endurance. As you know, the games played statistic is meaningless because a player gets credit for game if he logs a single minute.
But minutes played in the past can’t predict how the knee will react in the future.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Feb 11, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
amare's minutes suffer more from foul trouble than from physical weakness i think.
by TheMoon on Feb 11, 2009 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I was going to say...
after the surgery, he was having trouble with his quickness and explosiveness, and he fouled more….
Now that he is fully recovered (for now at least) he is fouling less, and playing more minutes.
Trade for Amare. Keep Deng and Rose. Figure out the rest later.
by kidronmusic on Feb 12, 2009 2:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your last sentence,
I just simply was going by what you had said earlier, that judging MP is more important than # of GP, and apparently that’s “flawed/illogical” when I compare Amare’s minutes played to other (your words again) “superstars”.
I would hope that the Bulls management has many more ways to gauge Amare’s health, that’s why they employ doctors. I am not a doctor, so I’m basing it off statistics that I can compare him with other players of his caliber.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you insinuating that Tyrus could have been the key piece
in getting a 4 time all star, while he was sitting on the bench and averaging 8 and 5?
I’m all for trading a guy with a month of star production for a guy with 4 years of it.
by runningman on Feb 11, 2009 4:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My head is gonna explode
I wanna fall asleep and wake up next Wednesday. Btw I don’t think it’s been brought up on here yet, but what exactly is gonna happen with the jersey numbers? Would Amare switch? Would Derrick switch? Probably, and if so what number would he use?
"One thing I do know is teams like a lot of our pieces. That's not to say they want to give us a lot of players in return, but I know they like a lot of our pieces." - John Paxson (1/21/09)
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 11, 2009 12:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It is simple Amare wears #2 because that is all he will ever be in Chicago
just like Pip.
by Bart71 on Feb 11, 2009 1:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
got ya the 2nd time.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2009 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
amare could go back to 32
its not like larry hughes is using it
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
by Yibs on Feb 11, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
So now Tyrus is untouchable b/c of 8 decent games???
Boy oh boy BaB sure is a what have u done for me lately type of place. One with extremely short memories at that, and totally schizophrenic. I can’t BELIEVE some of these same posters are the ones who have been most critical of Pax in the past for not making moves…just reeks of unbelievable short-sightedness.
Just for illustration let’s take a guy TT was oft compared to early on in Stromile Swift. Swift had a stretch in ‘01-’02 season when he avg’d 15 and 7in Nov. In April that same season he posted 15 and 9 w/ 3 blocks per game also. And pls don’t be that guy who responds with some dumb-ass comment like u can’t compare Swift w/ Thomas b/c he’s not nearly as good b/c 1) really?? really. we’ve absolutely determined that this is true? Is Tyrus even going to reach the level of Emeka Okafor, who’s posting 14 and 11 w/ 2 blocks/game & shooting 58% from the field – all in line w/ his CAREER (not 8-game) avg??
To me I JUST CANNOT BELIEVE some BaB posters would be unwilling to trade TT for Thomas. To quote SNL: REALLY? REALLY?
Thomas is a top 5 offensive low-post scoring threat in the NBA. We as Bulls fans have for yrs been CLAMORING for a legit low-post scoring threat that u can dump the ball down to. And now that we’ve potentially fallen ass-backwards into a rare opportunity to get just such a player, we don’t want to trade TYRUS THOMAS?
by TruFan on Feb 11, 2009 1:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree except for...
“…Bab posters would be unwilling to trade TT for Thomas”
i am pretty sure Bab posters dont have to worry about trading TT for Thomas since they are i believe the same person….. :)
But yes, Maybe tyrus is finally realizing his upside and maybe eventually he will be better or more valuable than stat. But realistically, we have a chance to nab a superstar, a real live, proven superstar! And he is only 26. Best of all, we are NOT offering him a long term contract, we are just picking up the next 3 years of his contract…how in the hell do we lose? If Stat doesnt work out, then we dont sign him in 3 years (assuming he doesnt opt out) and we have an extra 15 mil on our hands. We can sign bg long term without thinking about how it affects the 2010 plan, and we get something we have been missing forever!!!
And if Amare Opts out? Well yet again thats another 15 million extra in capspace, im sure we can work out some deals in order to obtain another free agent from 2010 or even resign Stat if he seems to be working out. I mean cmon….this isnt a ben wallace, a declining star who we will sign for too long and too much, this is the equivilant of a pau gasol trade, and in hindsight i think everyone wishes we had gotten pau (not that it would make us contenders but because WE WOULD HAVE A LEGIT POST PRESENCE!!!!)
I dont deny that what ive seen from tyrus lately is great, but i mean the guy still can finish at the rim, he gets to the line quite a bit and his jumper is sometimes effective, defense is his biggest strong point by a long shot. So with stat we get a guy who will constantly finish, has a better jumper, and like ben gordon can actually score more than he can give up. I mean we allow gordon a free ride on defense because of his defense, and he isnt even an all star yet. But stat, he is a proven superstar. I definetly will miss tyrus’ new improved defense, but man Amare is something we have desperately wanted since 2005…..he would make rose better, he would make gordon better, he would allow noah the ability to become more defensive minded and conserve energy…..and he is a proven stud….how do we not give pheonix whatever the hell they want for stat.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2009 1:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I sympathize with you (sort of) even if you are a bit shrill.
but, amar-e is not really a low post scorer.
by TheMoon on Feb 11, 2009 1:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the
fickle nature of BaB, but I think Tyrus has to be on the untouchable if it’s Tyrus plus Deng plus Noah plus draft picks….
Or if it’s just Tyrus plus Deng plus Draft picks for Amar’e.
I haven’t been fickle in my wait and see wtih Tyrus ever. I think he can be quite good and am sick of the Bulls paying and making the fans suffer to develop these guys only to see them blossom elsewhere (if this trade happens, I guarantee Tyrus will be an all star in 2 years)…..Gordon will be killing the Bulls every time we see him for the next 5 years….it sucks.
by majoyenrac on Feb 11, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree agree and agree
And on my typo also :) And my apologies if I sound utterly flabbergasted, and cheers to you for pointing that out.
Amare is not a low post scorer? I’m going to assume you watch basketball so you must mean relative to what, Karl Malone, Duncan, Shaq? True, quality back to the basket play has been an increasing rarity in this league for a number of yrs now. Do you consider Garnett a low post threat? Better yet, do you consider TT a low post threat?
In other words I fail to see your point.
by TruFan on Feb 11, 2009 2:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
you said people have been begging for a low post presence,
and then you stated your confusion as to why now, on the cusp of landing such a player, fans would become apprehensive. i didnt actually give this argument, but maybe the reason is because amare is not a low post scorer. i only stated that fact because often people say silly things like “amare is a low post scorer” or “stunning they didnt pick aldridge since the bulls have been looking for a low post man since brand left.” lets be clear: aldridge is not a low post player, and neither is amare.
by TheMoon on Feb 11, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Amare is a low post scorer
just not a back to the basket low post scorer, but he still gets the job done. He can catch the ball in the post and get something done, and i think thats the defintion of a low post scorer, i guy who primarily scores in the post……
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i think he primarily scores
with screen rolls, jump shots, and beating guys off the dribble when hes caught it 12 feet from the basket. if this makes him a post player then it seems like thomas already is a low post player.
by TheMoon on Feb 11, 2009 6:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thorpe weighs in (figured this fit in w/ the post and not worthy of a fanpost)
Mike (Jersey): Dave, you are the Bulls GM, do you pull the trigger on Tyrus, Noah, Gooden, Sefolosha and draft pick for Amare? Yes or No?
SportsNation David Thorpe: It’s never as simple as that, especially in this economy. Financial decisons will play a big part.
Kevin (Williamsburg, VA): David, on the basketball court and for the future, is giving up Tyrus Thomas for Amar’e Stoudemire a good idea? I know you mentioned financial considerations earlier, but if that wasn’t an issue what would you do if you were Paxson?
SportsNation David Thorpe: I’d probably do the trade-using an asset to acquire Amare is wise. See the Jefferson for KG deal. But it’s a tough call either way, as Tyrus brings tons of energy and defense to the equation.
Marty (Chicago, IL): Would getting Amare make the Bulls better in the long run, or is this outburst from Tyrus Thomas for real? Thomas is a better defender and rebouder and is younger. You figure that if he improves on not turning the ball over you could get better production from him if he keeps this up.
SportsNation David Thorpe: To me, if the Bulls want to make a run now and next year, it’s a no-brainer. You have to get Amare. if instead they have a 3 year window to progress with Rose, Thomas, Noah, Deng-all 24 or younger, then that dictates standing pat.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 11, 2009 2:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Surprised Thorpe says he'd do it....
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Feb 11, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
meh, depends on what you want
Stoudemire is undoubtedly the better player right now. Thomas for Stoudemire makes sense. But if you have include other players (and their contracts) you start wondering. And, as Sports2 is pointing out, if you don’t think they’ll be contenders this year or next (I think they’d have a chance for a Top-4 in the East nextyear), then you ask what about in 2011 and beyond. Thomas will be 24, Stoudemire 28. How healthy will Stoudemire be?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's what it comes down to:
can you make it just Thomas or just Noah and spare parts? If yes, proceed to next step. If not, say no.
If yes, which do you think is more likely: That Thomas and/or Noah improve to be very, very good players or that Stoudemire stays in Chicago through 2015/2016 (standard same-team contract after 2010) and stays fairly healthy and productive throughout.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Everything you've said are the thoughts that have been running through my head the last few days.
I’ve been flip-flopping constantly and it’s starting to make my brain hurt. I almost feel bad for Paxson. If you put a gun to my head, I’d probably do it, but…………..shit, if it wouldn’t hurt for me to give up Tyrus right now. The age thing is HUGE.
Can you imagine the excitement that Amare would bring with him to Chicago, though? Not to mention he’ll be playing with a massive chip on his shoulder and he’ll basically have free reign in the post/paint area for our offensive. Dude will be absolutely fired up and looking to dominate the East. As much as it would sting to lose Tyrus (I might shed a tear), getting Amare here would be the most exciting thing since we won the #1 pick.
And I agree with you about next year, I think they could certainly compete for a top 4 spot in the East….if they could somehow re-sign BG, I think it would be incredibly realistic. Even without him, though, I’d be optimistic at scoring home court in the playoffs. Plus, if Amare doesn’t work out, we’ll have massive cap space in 2010 and can make a run at someone else…or S/T him…I think, ultimately, if you’re Pax, you gotta do it!
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Feb 11, 2009 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
It’s not like Tyrus won’t still go to Thorpe’s camp in the offseason.
No harm no foul for David to say it.
In fact Thorpe might be saying that to get TYrus to come to his camp…
by majoyenrac on Feb 11, 2009 3:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thorpe disagrees:
“if instead they have a 3 year window to progress with Rose, Thomas, Noah, Deng-all 24 or younger, then that dictates standing pat.”
We’re not going for the gold now, we just got our superstar.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Feb 11, 2009 4:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
there doesn't always have to be one great leap forward
you can go for bronze now, then still look to go for gold.
ok I’ll ditch that lame analogy for another: I just keep thinking of a two-‘windowed’ strategy. The one with Rose+Amare. And then the Rose+whatever if the first doesn’t work out.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
adding Amare to our team will make us instant title contenders. It would be different if we only needed one piece [in this case, an extremely good scoring big] to destroy everybody.
So … I debate the existence of the first window.
If we could get … I don’t know, somebody else … 2 stars, we could definitely do it, but I don’t think that the first window would exist.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Feb 11, 2009 10:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i think having amare
would at least put us in the category of “one piece away”
Rose
resign ben gordon (by tradin noch and hinrich i suppose)
Luol Deng (solid starter who should play alot better with more threats on the court, and a better offensive system)
Amare
we would basically just need a solid defensive center who can rebound and have somewhat of a back to the basket game (kaman????) and i think thats a team that can contend. We could also not resign ben gordon (and have maybe kirk play the 2 or trade him for a decent cheaper sg) and if amare does opt out in 2010 we would be in a position to still get some players in 2010.
We have to stay competetive while planning for the future, its easier to plan for the future when you know what you have. Trying to plan for the future while also wondering how some of your assets are gonna turn out is alot harder to do and you are bound to make a mistake (see what happened to the bulls in the last several years, hinrich was supposed to be a bit better than he, deng was supposed to be a 20 10 guy who scored 50 percent of his shots)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 12, 2009 2:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No defense = Suns East?
Woudn’t that lineup just make us a no-defense team?
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Feb 12, 2009 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Amare makes us a playoff team we still can’t beat Boston or Cleveland. Not even sure if we could beat the Heat, Hawks, or Magic in a series after giving up TT, Noah, and Gooden.
Derrick Rose-2009 ROTY Tyrus Thomas-2009 MIP...hope I'm at least half right
by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Feb 12, 2009 7:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This was the money shot
To me, if the Bulls want to make a run now and next year, it’s a no-brainer. You have to get Amare. if instead they have a 3 year window to progress with Rose, Thomas, Noah, Deng-all 24 or younger, then that dictates standing pat.
If they get Amare under any of the trades I see being bandied about… or even any other ones I can think of… they’re still not contenders.
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2009 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree on that and it's really making me question this trade for the Bulls now
While I don’t want to wait 2-3 more years for this team to develop, they’re not exactly jumping right into contention. They get closer but shorten that window significantly. Unless Hinrich and/or Noc are dealt in conjunction to open space under the tax limit or get something more useful in return, I don’t think dealing for Amar’e does anything more than maybe a first round playoff win. Even that’s counting on a huge jump by Rose from this year to next.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 11, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As soon as I posted that I could think of all the retorts I have to my own arguments.
I guess at this point I’ll wait for Paxson to try to do this deal. If he does, it’ll be fun to watch Rose and Amare. If he can’t or won’t pull it off, then it’ll be fun to watch Rose and Tyrus keep developing. And it’s likely Colangelo will be in a similar situation w/ Bosh this summer or a year from now, so it’s not like there won’t be other opportunities.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Feb 11, 2009 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right. I have a pretty interesting post (in my mind) concerning Thomas...
…running through my head right now, but I can’t muster the energy to do it right now. 1 week.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Feb 11, 2009 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
Ozzie asks about the Gasol trade, and to me it’s instructive.
Once the Bulls signed up Wallace, I was pissed when they didn’t make another move to really put them over the top. Instead, they stayed, in my opinion, with one foot in the boat and one foot on the shore, unwilling to commit fully to either path. We see where that got them. Moving some of those assets for Gasol, I think, would at least have been an attempt to go for broke and win a title. But when push came to shove, they weren’t willing to do it.
Fast forward a couple years and i see the same things happening. I’m not opposed to dealing for Amare, but I’m pretty opposed to muddling up this roster even more (if that’s even possible). At the end of the day, it’s not enough to just make a trade and then try to figure the rest out later. They need a plan.
by Sports2 on Feb 11, 2009 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
new thread for that, FYI
http://www.blogabull.com/2009/2/11/756562/david-thorpe-2-11
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 11, 2009 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if everyone that's saying don't make this deal now
Was against the Gasol trade 2 years ago. You could argue the Bulls are in a better position to improve simply because the limits of our old “core” are pretty realized. Derrick Rose is the only guy with huge room for improvement, maybe Tyrus Thomas.
My problem with standing pat is that Vinny is still the head coach, Kirk, Nocioni, Gooden, and Larry Hughes are all still on this team, and Jerry Reinsdorf won’t give a shit about re-signing Ben Gordon. Nothing else seems to be changing, but since the Suns are free-falling the Bulls are given a huge chance to really improve the roster. I’ll agree that trading for Amare doesn’t make them real contenders, but who believes they are real contenders in 3 years with this current group? I have no faith in Paxson getting any substance for Nocioni or Hinrich, this is the best shot the Bulls have of getting any better as a team.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 11, 2009 3:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I would add
Noah to that list…he’s still got a lot of potential room to grow. But I agree with what you’re saying, and I think Pax knows he has to do something/anything real soon, or he gone!
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Feb 11, 2009 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was not against the Gasol trade 2 years ago
I was all for it. But I am more hesitant of this one, because unlike that one we’ve now invested 2 mroe years in Tyrus and are starting to see him blossom.
It’s one thing to trade a guy who’s 1-2 years away for a piece that can really help the now….more an issue to trade a guy who’s turnign a corner and might be almost as good by himself in 1-2 years as the guy we’re getting for the guy we’re getting AND GIVE UP some of NOAH, THABO, DENG, Draft picks, etc .
by majoyenrac on Feb 11, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
at the time we had invested 3 years into deng
and had him playing all star level, deng was blossoming perhaps more so then thomas is now. It really is a gamble both way, will thomas turn the corner, and if he does does he become all star level?? What do we lose to get amare aside from just players, do we lose that much on the defensive end? What are the limits amares game, his contract may limit our ability to do anything in 2010 so we may be stuck with him…
I still say pull the trigger on amare because he is already proven to be great and i dont like the track record for this organization when it comes to developing players, especially bigs….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2009 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Deng
Isn’t athletic enough though to ever be in the equation as a top 5 SF….
Tyrus is….
Deng may end up the better player, but Tyrus’s upside is the risk. If Tyrus figures it all out (And he’s been showing signs) then we clearly let him go.
Deng’s a good player around the top 10 in the league at his position, but seeing as he’ll never be in the Pierce, Melo, Lebron, etc camp, he’s more movable.
Tyrus might not be in the KG-Duncan camp, but being more versatile and athletic he could be a top 5 PF/SF due to his crazy athleticism, ability to play a guard to C at times in different lineups…..and who knows what he’ll be if he bulks up a bit more and improves.
Of course Tyrus still can be a big bust, but he’s just too damn risky. He’s as athletic as any superstar in this league, and has the raw gifts, but may never put it together.
by majoyenrac on Feb 11, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that
what i meant was…deng looked like a true all star that year, and not many wanted to trade him for gasol cuz he was basically being considered one of the best sf in the entire league….i mean that was huge, and he played at that level the whole season…not just a set of three months….
Now you see people more than willing to get rid of deng in a trade….Now although thomas is playing great basketball, its not all star level, and its not being considered one of the best pf level. I agree that he has the athleticism to get to that point but the future is so hard to figure out. What if he gets injured and his athleticism is cut down a bit. What if he never really gets that ability to go inside and finish, what if as his jumper gets better he falls more and more in love with it?
The biggest fear with amare that ive read is, what if he gets injured again or his previous surgery rapidly reduces his athleticism…..my thought is something similar can always happen to tyrus…..
there is no guarantee what happens with any said player, but if you are given to considerably make your roster better now…you take that chance. You dont wait and hope that your most promising prospect suddenly gets it….because waiting and hoping wont win anything.
Its like Bargnani in Toronto…he is pretty much the tyrus thomas for that group….they see tons of potential in him, but if they had a chance to get say dirk or okur, do you think they would say “no, were gonna stick it out with bargnani”, i dont think they would, id think wed make fun of them for not doing so.
Just like when barkley made fun of the bulls for keeping some guy named deng instead of pursuing gasol…ernie told barkley that hey deng is shooting 50% and almost getting 20 pts per game and barkley said so what! I thought barkley was stupid at the time, but then two years later you see the bulls….and yea we should have done the trade.
I apologize…i got off on a rant and its longer than i though it would be….you can disagree with me i dont mind reading it and i wont take anything personally or anything.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2009 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
My biggest fear with
Amar’e is twofold: 1) he’ll leave after 2010 season and we’ll be worse than ever. and 2) Tyrus Thomas will explode, and while Amar’e will be good, we could be saying we could have had Tyrus and our future draft pick and Deng, and blah blah blah.
I don’t disagree, and I’m rather wordy myself, no problem whatsoever.
I was always one who saw the somewhat limited athleticism in Deng (a mark that dogged him since college) and was surprised he got all the attention. I’m happy he’s officially playing like at least 10th in the league at his spot, but with others coming up, I dn’t think he has a chance to get much higher….
But given his age and all around game, he’ll always be tradable.
I’d like to use him in that trade right now for Amar’e only because I THINK he’s the absoulte most essential piece.
If we have to include one of our youngs, be it Noah, add Thabo, Gooden, and hell maybe Kirk (get back Barbosa just to make it work),
by majoyenrac on Feb 11, 2009 9:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
About your two fold fear
I think 2010 isnt as big of a worry if we have amare now. If amare doesnt work out in chicago we could alway trade him to some team that would like his talents, if amare does work out for chicago then we prepare the roster to keep him in case he opts out in 2010 and especially to resign him in 2011. Rose are deng are locked up, if we follow up the amare trade by getting rid of either noch or kirk (or both) we get the capspace to resign gordon or if amare is really effective with rose (like they are a dynamic one two punch) then we can actually not sign gordon (because we do have a player who can score 20pts per game) and use that money to keep amare long term.
if amare opts out we can try to resign him or take the 15 mil he cleared up for us plus whatever we got from the loss of gordon noch and hinrich and see what else is out there. In other words i dont think having amare cripples us in anyway at all. At worst this trade will speed up the process of rebuilding, at best it puts us one piece away from contention.
I get you would want to keep assets like deng, and thomas to see what the investment does for you (they either become stars and fill our needs, or they become tradeable assets and help us get players who fill our need) But i question that how long can we hold onto such assets. You are afraid that thomas might get traded and bud into a star for someone else, well if we keep tyrus Amare will continue to be a star for someone else. Tyrus might be better than Amare one day, but its not one day soon…we should be getting into the playoffs as often as we can, we have to make future free agents look at this team and think “man, this team might be a player away from getting somewhere, and i might be that player”. We have to win now, and we have to be expected to win, not just sneak into the playoffs but year after year be automatically put into the mix by the media just because of our roster.
If you wanna know my biggest fear, it is that we will keep tyrus and noah and wait for them to develop and cherry pick stats to tell ourselves they are playing at high levels, when the rest of the league sees non of that (like ben gordon, who anyone here can tell you is one of the better shooting guards in the nba but outside of chicago no one sees anything great about him). Tyrus will never become a star, and will never be able to fully dominate games, and just be another solid player on a team with solid players and one really young pg who is searching for a superstar to play alongside…..i fear that this is what the bulls are hoping to become at best with the roster they have now.
Its funny we have been looking for any trades that make us marginally better, our solid expensive players for cap relief so we can possibly get out hands on a 2010 target. We are faced with a trade that is gonna take our solid players and get a bona fide superstar in return, one that is considered one of the big guns of 2010, and we are hesitating….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 12, 2009 2:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm afraid of giving up on young guys
When will we learn…Artest, Brand, Chandler three guys that were traded away and became All Stars. Sure Artest was a headcase and Chandler was probably only an All Star because of CP3.
I’m afraid Pax wants Amare only because he has heard the talk about him failing in the past with KG, Pao, and Kobe so now he feels he has to do something even if Amare isn’t the best solution long term.
Derrick Rose-2009 ROTY Tyrus Thomas-2009 MIP...hope I'm at least half right
by CHCOWNTHECENTRAL on Feb 12, 2009 7:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Chandler
technically never was an all star. I was so freaking happy when we let Artest go (I didn’t know the craziness with him at the time, but he was just such a complainer when he was here it was annoying for me to watch). I was in college during the Brand days, but overall I saw the reasons for that trade (The twin towers idea), I just wish Krause waited a bit and made a better trade for our ROY/overall #1 pick…..
by majoyenrac on Feb 12, 2009 7:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I KNEW there were some Artest fans left!
Keeping him on a 20 win team would’ve worked out smoothly.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 12, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
about 3 times as smoothly
as keeping him on a 60 win team. The Indiana Pacer franchise would love to go back in time and rescind the Artest trade.
by Basketball Smurf on Feb 12, 2009 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not afraid
to trade anyone on this roster except Tyrus and Rose.
Those 2 should be untouchable. Tyrus really has just such an interesting mix of talents, he can be a guard at times (Especially as that shooting touch improves)….and his improvement has been night and day over last year (not just his comfortability on the court, but his ability to shoot the jumper, the form of his shot, his awareness on both ends). He’s getting it.
A guy with all the myriad of still raw but improving talents, coupled with the “oh wow” athleticism, screams hang onto him, especially when he’s 22.
I’d be fine to part with anyone else on this team….hell I’d be fine to part with Tyrus or Rose if it gave us someone like D. Wade….and I’d be fine to trade Tyrus with Deng if it gave us Amar’e….just not Tyrus, Deng, Gooden (cap relief), and multiple draft picks.
I get your point about Amar’e being that star, and I do like the idea of Rose-Amar’e, but I’d like it much better if it was Rose-Amar’e-Gordon or Rose-Amar’e-Tyrus. And I think us trading our draft picks, our cap flexibility, and our best young asset would be a killer.
I am not including Deng in the above, because I think there is no chance we pull of a trade for a star in the caliber of Amar’e without parting with at least our 2nd best player (Deng) in that deal…..and Gordon’s not tradable so it has to be Deng as #2.
I’m so wishy washy though because as soon as we make this trade, if we do, I’ll jump right on the “that is awesome we have Amar’e” bandwagon and will completely forget these concerns, however legitimate they’ll be….
Then next year or 2 years or both when Tyrus Thomas makes it to his first all start game, I’ll be bitching.
by majoyenrac on Feb 12, 2009 7:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We do need a trade
That’s why I’m so freaking wishy washy…..and a guy like Amar’e doesn’t come around too often….so it’s hard.
If it fails though, I’ll be beyond pissed.
by majoyenrac on Feb 12, 2009 7:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the bulls simply have to make this trade if its available to them. we cannot roll the dice and hope the tyrus and noah develop their potential. we can obtain a bona fide superstar right now, we cannot pass on this. we have made the same mistakes when we had chances at both KG, and Gasol, two players who helped their teams go to the finals last year. Pairing Amare with Rose will allow Rose to grow, as he needs to learn how to play with another all star caliber player. Amare will make Rose an all star by next year, maybe even the starting PG in the East. You put Amare, Deng and BG around Rose and he will excell and this offense would be terrifying to play against. they can add in role players, and find a defensive big through Free Agency of by moving Hinirch and/or Noch. Although i would love to see Tyrus develop, he really has been playing at this level for only a handful of games. We cannot allow ourselves to buy into the hype again, we have these ‘good’ pieces, its about time we turn them into a ‘greater’ piece.
by brose on Feb 11, 2009 4:03 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
AHHHHHH...
im so torn on this one…i dont think i have ever been so torn before on whether or not to make a trade………this is really hurting my head…. i cant wait till its over and we can move forward……..just one thing…if it happens…i hope its not for both TT and noah
by masputo on Feb 11, 2009 4:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
"I hope its not for both TT and noah"
thats something i will agree on
by brose on Feb 11, 2009 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When rumors of getting Kobe for Deng++ surfaced a year ago (and also maybe Kirk)
Those softies got weak in the knees and went into a year long slump!
But, now rumors of trading Tyrus surface, and he starts playing like a stud.
I’d say try to move the softies in trades, FIRST! And ASAP!
man up!
by exult463 on Feb 11, 2009 5:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
The "softies"
were playing great basketball and moving up in wins until the talk, THEN they regressed. If Thomas regressed from how he was playing at the begining of the year he would be less valuable than gray…..
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2009 5:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Listening to the radio out here in PhX
The consensus, is that if Amare is traded it’s gonna be after the all-star game (i.e. monday prob)…
"Kiss my Converse!" - Sho'nuff
by Belize on Feb 11, 2009 6:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hurray for not completing if, and statements!
If I had a dollar for every…
by NittanyCub on Feb 11, 2009 6:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoops, read that wrong
You can call me an idiot, Belize.
by NittanyCub on Feb 11, 2009 6:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
never that son
Viva la pre-judgment…lol
"Kiss my Converse!" - Sho'nuff
by Belize on Feb 11, 2009 10:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding Thomas and Noahs more recent offensive games
I found this quote from David Thorpes recent post:
"Rose played unbelievably well on the Bulls’ seven-game road trip. What he’s doing as a rookie point guard is amazing, especially with the rest of the league figuring out ways to defend him.
He has added some floaters on penetrations. He is knocking in his midrange jumpers with regularity. He is taking much better shots most of the time. And he is even learning how to throw lob passes off ball-screen penetrations, which has helped teammates Joakim Noah and Tyrus Thomas get more involved in the offense.
He still gets cooked on defense too often, but his offensive (and rebounding) efforts more than make up for that issue. I’ve never been higher on him than I am right now."
by gman2849 on Feb 11, 2009 7:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Amare loves him some lobs and off ball screen penetrations....
I mean if rose makes noah look good with them, imagine him with stat there instead….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Feb 11, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ok ....i have been really thinking about this for a while now..like everyone else...
and i have made my decision on what i would do….. with the imrpoved play of TT recently his value is pretty high right now….so it might be possible to leave noah out of any trade involving amar’e…good news… i feel that we should make the trade for one reason…. although TT looks like he MIGHT be a great player, we shouldn’t take the chance that he isn’t…. his improved play is giving us the opportunity to acquire a proven all star and i dont think we should pass on that……i expect the GM to make decisions for the better of the team….. and the trade would be for the better of the team….If amar’e does start to slow down because of the knee issues, he’ll still be an elite player in the league for years to come…. at least the next 5 years IMO….is it a risk? of course it is…. but the better questions to ask are these….Is TT gonna be an elite PF in this league? who knows……is STAT already an elite PF in this league? a huge YES……. as somebody mentioned before in either this post or another….“you get the big pieces first and then drop in the smaller pieces around them”..or something like that…. the point being that STAT and rose would be our two very big pieces…and actually we would have some medium sized pieces around them in deng gordon and noah…assuming we keep all of them of course………. and as far as STAT being a bad attitude who only cares about his points and not playing defense crap…i doubt its the truth…VDN knows him very well and i doubt he would sign off on acquiring STAT if this was true… think about it.. vinny has stupid strict rules about not eating before games…he wouldnt want STAT if he thought he would be a problem…….. so pax…. you have my ok on this trade….
by masputo on Feb 11, 2009 11:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You don't have to wait 5 years
See how he fits with Rose for the next year and a half!
If that don’t work, get Bosh at whatever expense necessary!
Simple as 1-2-3!
by Option27 on Feb 12, 2009 12:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i didnt say that......
but no matter..cause i already changed my mind
by masputo on Feb 12, 2009 12:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Great news!
Portland is out!
Check out the fanpost I just posted!
by Option27 on Feb 12, 2009 12:08 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
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