The point guard spectrum and where Derrick Rose fits
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 9, 2009 10:55 AM CST
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Ryan Schwan is a smart dude, and a great blogger over at Hornets247.com. He put together some Venn Diagrams for the league's PGs, separated by advanced metrics (some more common than others) like TS%, AST%, Usage, etc.
Using the league average (for 10gm, 25mpg PGs) as a baseline for making certain categories, he charts together which point guards provide singular or multiple qualities. Even combines different categories based on the 'type' of PG you're looking for, though I'd say his 'master' list is a far-from-perfect combination of qualities.
But no matter how you slice these numbers, the glaring thing throughout is that Rose isn't even above average in...pretty much anything. He only shows up in one of the three diagrams and that was as a high-usage PG.
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can't care about these things
since they are based on stats that are highly subjective and dependent on the quality of your teammates. steph curry is an above average defender? don’t think so.
What stats are "highly subjective".
You’re crazy and lost.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
This is dumb.
Not all teams are created equal and it doesn’t take into account who these players are teamed with. Of course Rose is going to be on the out side because his team can’t score. This is dumb.
We are the worlds dumbest city!- Dan Bernstein
So you believe in plus/minus?
And you hate Luol Deng? Stephen Curry, Mike Conley, Rodney Stuckey… these guys are on shitty teams, too. Yet, they are at least above-average somewhere. Rose is part of the reason the team is so bad. Really.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I just watch the game.
Rose is just having to learn to be selfish last season he got to pick his spots.. this season he’s learning that he has to force everything and thats not easy. His team sucks and there is a lot of pressure on him. Rose has the ability to play well in big time moments and I don’t think Deng does. Rose and Noah will be fine everyone else I don’t care about.
We are the worlds dumbest city!- Dan Bernstein
Well, if you're saying all of that is subjective, then I guess scores are subjective, too.
I mean, a travel (a turnover) is subjective according to the referee. So is a foul. The score doesn’t tell the truth. Watch the games. It’s more objective.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
so your point is...
that this made-up ranking based on less than a quarter of a season is somehow definitive? you really believe this? yes, i would really rather just watch the games.
It's not a ranking.
And I never said it is definitive about anything. Neither did the author. You’re doing way too much reading into it.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
People love straw men, tyger. Leave them to their devices. You'll be happier for it.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Dec 9, 2009 6:41 PM CST up reply actions
Rose just isn't that good.
There’s a big gap between his athleticism and his game. His defense is awful and his propensity to turn the ball over is kind of shocking. He might be a really good guard in future, but here and now just not a particularly good player.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 9, 2009 11:23 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
This is really discouraging. *Sigh*
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Dec 9, 2009 11:39 AM CST reply actions
Rose's problem right now is that he's been missing makeable layups.
But yeah. What hitlesswonder said.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
At least Westbrook is in the same position.
Hopefully they both mature. …
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
I think one reason why you see so few superstar scoring PGs
is they go up against an all-world athlete every single night. Most NBA PGs are freaks: 6’1", college track star speed, 36" verticals, the skill to have separated themselves from the billion other 6’0" humans who had dreams of playing in the league. I’d put NBA point guards up against any position in sports in terms of pure athleticism. Compare that to a Dwight Howard who gets 40 off-nights as year against Zaza Pachulia, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, etc etc etc.
Derrick’s fine (and he’s played at last year’s form lately). Every stud on that list besides Chris Paul and Deron Williams was fairly crappy in their second year. It’s just really hard to expect a 20 year old PG to be a stud.
by YaoPau on Dec 9, 2009 12:05 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
You and your crazy optimism. The sky is falling don't you know.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Dec 9, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
Good methodology, shitty data
I’d like to see how this works out over the course of a whole year. We’re talking about a 19 game sample and most everyone has admitted Rose started off with a debilitating injury.
If you look at his first 10 vs. his last 9 games, he’s picked up his scoring tremendously. He was shooting at 43.8% over the first stretch and 49% over the last stretch. He’s getting to the line more. I think in general he’s taking a bit better care of the ball though I don’t know that it’ll show in the stats yet.
So yeah, I think we all know he’s not come out and played like a ball of fire, but I do think he’s rounding into form, and he’ll make it into a couple of those diagram boxes before too much longer
The cutoff rates for the first box were:
Assist rate,(27.1%) Turnover Rate,(11.7%) and True Shooting .(53.7)
Derrick is currently at 29.5%, 15.5% and 50.5% based on Basketball reference
That is, if Ryan re-did his analysis today, Derrick would have snuck into the high assist rate category.
I think given another couple weeks his TS% will work its way up too. It’s certainly trending in that direction.
All this isn’t to say Rose is meeting expectations, but I think he’s getting there after a crappy start. I also think the general horribleness of the rest of the team will have more effect on a PG’s statistical output (especially a guy who makes his living driving the lane like Rose) than on most other positions.
by Sports2 on Dec 9, 2009 12:39 PM CST reply actions 7 recs
Thank you!
So I made a list of all the players who have played at least 10 games this season</>, averaged 25 minutes per game or more, and spend at least a significant amount of their playing time at the point. I then took the average NBA point guard’s assist rate,(27.1%) Turnover Rate,(11.7%) and True Shooting .(53.7)
Way too small a sample size and plus didn’t take into account that Rose was playing while battling an injury.
In this case, the statistics were like a book missing chapters. Doesn’t tell the whole story.
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 9, 2009 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
It depends if you take the writer to mean the list as gospel.
I might re-read it, but it didn’t seem to make any claims about who was certainly great and who wasn’t… except for Chris Paul. No data short of a few years is all that accurate of an assessment. Even a year’s worth is only a testament to how a player played that year, not how good he actually is. Some players have a single great year. If you only looked at the year, you’d think they’re great, but more years taken into consideration show otherwise.
The methodology is pretty obvious: it’s all there. It only says what players have done this year. I think we’d all agree that, taken as a whole, Rose has been pretty bad this year.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
But how can you say he's been bad "This year"
He’s had a bad start to the season. Clearly he’s playing better now and were not even at the all star break.
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 9, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
Cuz it's in total.
If a player has a bad 3 months and then finishes on fire and his total numbers are mediocre… if he’s supposed to be a star, I’d say that’s a bad year. You could further explain it in two halves, of course, or by injury or whatever, but it’s still a “meh” year to me.
If someone asks how Rose has been this year, I can say he started out poorly, but has been later. Or I can say he’s been pretty mediocre all year. What if he had a great first 3 games, then a bad 10-game stretch, then he was playing better lately? This guy wasn’t going to go into the but’s and why’s of every player; it was on a macro level.
I guess his numbers have been okay this year, as a whole, they’re about even with last year. I guess that’s bad relative to my expectations. Obviously, if he keeps on his recent pace, how one speaks of “this year” will change.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Stats are subjective...
because people make subjective analysis of them, as this conversation just exposed.
by Super-Structure on Dec 9, 2009 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
So if two people disagree on something, neither is right?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Stats are objective, our interpretation is subjective
by Sports2 on Dec 9, 2009 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
There is no separation between the subject and the object.
Statistics are entirely interpretation. Basketball has some direct representations, like points, assists, and rebounds. Advanced statistics are not directly representative, they are all metaphors. So any interaction with them is entirely subjective.
I would also say that sports is one of the rare cases where the number has an objective properties whatsoever.
by Super-Structure on Dec 9, 2009 5:17 PM CST up reply actions
Because the start of the season has been a pretty big chunk of "this year," hence
he’s been bad so far this year. He’s getting better and he might end up having a pretty good season when all’s said and done. As S2 said, it seems as though he’s trending that way. But based on what’s already happened, if the season were over today, he’s had a bad first 19 games. The remaining 63 should be better.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Dec 9, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think so.
Can you quote me a claim that is wrong or misleading?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Rose is still very young...some guys develop later
Steve Nash wasn’t all world his first few years (…I’m sure someone will post about how a deeper look into his stats shows otherwise…but still). Clearly, Rose has awesome potential. But he’s not that great right now.
Honestly, I’m less worried about Rose not developing a better game than I am about him not doing it with the Bulls.
I think people are in too quick a rush to define Rose
My opinion of him changes a lot. At first I thought he was this scoring point guard in the realm of Steve Francis or Tony Parker or a smaller D-Wade. But my opinion on that is changing. The guy passes really well. He is not CP3, DWill or Nash, but he is does a good job of drawing defenses and finding open players. I think his passing is definitely better this year.
Scoring wise I don’t know if he has a true scorers mentality. Its like he has a scorer’s skills with a passing mentality. His first instinct isn’t to score, although he can be very good at it. But to score, and get in rhythm, he really needs to be on the break. And the Bulls pace has been low all season. Lack of rebounding, a strategy change, whatever – the Bulls slow it down approach conflicts with Rose’s strengths.
Rose’s big games correspond to the games he rebounds well. I think that is because when he is rebounding he can really push on the break, kind of like J-Kidd. But instead of looking to pass, Rose looks to score on the break. The Bulls have to push the tempo to get the best out of Rose. And he won’t drastically improve in the halfcourt until he gets better coaching, better teammates or becomes a better outside shooter.
His defense has improved too, as long as you keep him out of the pick and roll. I like Miller in the starting lineup, but the one thing to watch for is that Miller can’t cover the pick and roll as well as Taj and Noah. That could lead to a lot of perimeter blow byes.
If you cut him some slack for the first 10 games or so, than overall I’m not too worried about his progress. He certainly hasn’t improved as much as I hope, but the Bulls aren’t putting him in the best circumstances either. I like what I saw yesterday a lot. After the 1st quarter, it seemed it just clicked for Rose on how he should attack the Nets defense. If he keeps that level of understanding, and the Bulls continue to clear the lane for Rose by hitting shots, than we could really see him start to take off.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 9, 2009 1:27 PM CST reply actions 5 recs
On the offensive side, I still like my original Baron Davis comparison.
His perimeter shooting is still worse, but I think that’s the coaching… and he can get there.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
at least he doesnt take 7 threes a game like BaRon.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
I don't think his passing is great in the halfcourt either
and the Nets threw more lobs in a quarter last night than Rose has done in his career.
But yeah, his teammates stink, which doesn’t help. In fact while I agree that while running more could help Rose score, who’s there to run with him? Noah I suppose, but the rest of the frontcourt can’t run effectively, and Deng/Salmons may be the least athletic wing combo in the league.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 9, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions
Tyrus when he gets back can run too
The Bulls are built to run at the 1, 4 and 5, but you are right – Deng and Salmons kill more fastbreaks than any wing duo I’ve ever seen. Neither guy is able to get the ball and push. And neither guy, but Salmons especially, is adept at getting out on the wing, running and finishing. Its a big disadvantage and something again, that Gordon did better. Gordon would at least work as a trailer. I don’t know what Salmons does on the break.
In regards to his half court passing – guys are getting wide open shots because of Rose and they are missing them. When Taj, Salmons or Miller has a rare good shooting night, Rose ends up with 7 to 8 assist. If he becomes a 22 pt 8 ast guy, I don’t know if I would be too disappointed.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 9, 2009 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
Deng/Salmons may be the least athletic wing combo in the league.
Yeah. I’m perplexed by how we seem to have thought this is how we ought to build around a PG like Rose.
I will say, however, that in the distant past Deng seemed fairly capable in transition. If I squint I can still picture it, but only if I consider him a small and quick 4.
your rebounding point was interesting, and its an angle i hadnt thought of before.
however, correct me if i am wrong, but last night didnt most of roses rebounds come in the first 2 1/2 quarters of the game while his scoring explosion came in the final 1 1/2 quarters?
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
That's wrong.
You’re reading the Venn Diagram wrong.
Being above-average ONLY at a high-usage rate correlates with a bad team. Which makes sense. If you use a lot of your team’s possessions, and you’re not above-average, your team will likely suffer.
As one can see, Mo Williams, Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Jameer Nelson, Aaron Brooks and Deron Williams all have above-average usage rates yet are the head of good teams… among the best in the league, actually. These guys just do other things well besides using the ball.
So your statement is actually: Having an above-average usage rate and being below-average at the other things measured, correlates with having a bad team. So much so, one could almost call it causation, but we won’t. If one is a focal point of his team, but he’s not that good, his team probably isn’t going to be very good.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
You could look at it in different orders and draw different conclusions.
The causal relation could point in either direction.
by Super-Structure on Dec 9, 2009 5:26 PM CST up reply actions
All I have to say is...
Any venn diagram that puts Beno Udrih anywhere near the middle in a good way is not worthy of respect!
As a math teacher, this is quite simple…sample size is too small!
To be fair
Udrih has been pretty solid so far this year, although I agree that sample size is everything.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
now i get it
dude who put this together is a “business analyst at a financial services company”—those guys have a great track record with analysis and predictions.
Jesus, he didn't make a prediction.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
My take on Derrick is that he's at his best when he's looking to score first, and pass
only when help defense dictates that he should. The only issue with that is that he’s an inefficient scorer, as he doesn’t get to the line nearly as he should, nor does he make any three pointers. Essentially, for this current version of Derrick to score 20-25 ppg, he needs to go roughly 9 for 18 from the field and 4 for 6 from the line. Eventually, I’d hope for Derrick to be able to hit 8 or 9 FG, 1 3P and 6 or 7 FTA per game, averaging roughly 23-25 per game, maybe more, as he improves his outside shot and maybe develops a low post game. For a guy like Derrick, the assists will pile up as he becomes a better scorer, as he’ll be able to drive and kick all he wants, provided he’s surrounded by good outside shooters. But if he thinks he can do what he did yesterday on a game-to-game basis, he’s in for a surprise as guards don’t usually shoot 56% from the field.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
zOMG it says Derrick Rose isn't best PG!! Flame Flame Flame!!
I actually really like the methodology and would be very interested in seeing the results given a much larger sample size (which obv doesn’t exist for Rose yet).
by soxrule!35 on Dec 9, 2009 4:29 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
so that's what people with brains type like.
thank you.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 9, 2009 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
I agree.
Or just last year on the whole. Or comparing rookie seasons. Since it’s a categorizing exercise and not really a ranking, we could easily do entire careers… or compare rookies to their career mid-points to the end of their careers to see how much a guy changed. There are some things I disagree with, but I like the Venn Diagram idea.
It reminds me of the playing style spectrum from a couple of years ago… hmmm… Here
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Or you could just watch him play game by game and come to a very similar conclusion
He doesn’t have a game/mentality to be highly productive right now (although he does do occasionally spectacular things — though it’s been a long time since he broke Andre Miller’s ankle and blocked his breakaway in the same game).
He also isn’t playing in a system that highlight his strengths .. this is in part coaching, part the players he’s playing with (here, I don’t think they ALL suck, but too many similar types — no break-down dribblers, no post players – you could win with Deng if you had those types of players beside him but not if you also have John Salmons).
Rose is an incredibly frustrating player, but a little early to make a final judgement or judge where he’ll end up…
At least I hope : >
Moved Fanpost.
A Response to PG Spectrum from Hornets Blog by DRose01 on Dec 9, 2009 4:24 PM CST Comment 0 comments
If you have not done so already read this hornets blog article. Basically, it attempts to categorize PGs and show their strengths and weaknesses. The problem is that these stats are from this season, which is only 20 games old or so. Rose does not seem to fit into any of these categories. Is Rose that bas that he can not even find someplace to excel? I was not sure, so I did some research on my own.
I compiled a list of players that have made any of the three All-NBA teams in the past 20 years or so and took a look at the point guards on the list. The list is: Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Billups, Nash, Arenas, Parker, Iverson, Kidd, Cassel, Baron Davis, Marbury, Gary Payton, Tim Hardaway, Stockton, Rod Strickland, Anfernee Hardaway, Mark Price, Kevin Johnson, Joe Dumars, and Magic Johnson. Quite the list I should say. I took a look at 3 stats from their rookie years, TS%, AR% (percentage of team assists while on the floor), and TOR% (turnovers per 100 possessions). These were identical or similar stats to the ones used in the Hornets article. However, I am using a better sample size (full seasons) and comparing rookie seasons to rookie seasons. Here is what I found.
Magic led in TS% with .602, Kidd was the lowest at .471 and Rose finished tied with Billups at .516. This put Rose in the middle of the pack with Iverson, Cassel, D-WIll, and PArker all finishing just behind Rose.
Stockton had the worst TO% with 26.4 per 100 posessions. Rose was at the top of the list with 13.3!!! Now, this stat is a bit influenced by playing time and Rose played a ton, but still, I don’t think anyone could argue that Rose was a careless rookie if he was at the top of the list.
CP3 topped the AR% list at 38.2%. Marbury only finished a tenth behind him (hmmmm). Rose finished again in the middle, just ahead of D-Will.
Am I saying that Rose will finish his career on the same level as these players? Not necessarily. However, when a better comparison is made (rookie year to rookie year), with a larger sample size (82 games), one can see that Rose certainly has the potential to be great. Whether or not it will happen, nobody can know.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 9, 2009 4:43 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Christ, people.
I can’t believe how much people add into what they read. I mean, I know previous biases exist in all that, but “rankings”, “predictions”, “definitive”. None of these are words used anywhere in the guy’s post, but all that vanilla blue claimed he was doing.
Here’s what he was claiming he was doing:
I wanted to create a series of Venn Diagrams that would categorize point guards of the NBA and illustrate their strengths and weaknesses.
That’s all he’s claiming to do. I think he’s done a good job on that. Has he failed at that? Maybe he should have qualified it more and just said, “So far this season but not for their whole career…” And I mean, hell, there is a lot of subjectivity in what this guy is doing (steals + charges drawn + blocks = good PG defense? Really?), and a smart discussion might center around that. But shit, people can be really dumb. I now understand why two clubs in the Major Leagues still don’t use sabermetrics.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
i think people are miffed because hes categorized rose according to work hes done while hobbled.
and they are probably right in saying, “wait, how much is this data really worth?” if i read a Car and Driver in which they compared 5 cars in a road test but one of them had a partially flat tire, can i really say Car and Driver effectively illustrated the strengths and weaknesses of the vehicle? we can use this data to say to ourselves, “rose has sucked so far this year.” but if you even care to know that youve probably been watching the games, in which case that conclusion should have been pretty clear already.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
I think this is pretty much right
It’s not a bad idea at all. But doing it on 20 games or so is gonna make Rose look worse.
FWIW, I went back and did a comparison for the guys with the top 30 AST rates for 2008-2009. Rose would have only went into the low TO% circle in that analysis.
Still, I don’t think he was too far out of any of them. When you look at the total package, I’m not too worried. He was close in every category. I’d like to see improvement though.
I really didn't seem like anyone was questioning statistical value.
In most cases people questioned how relationships were described in this specific case. If you consider these Venn Diagrams as being equivalent to Sabermetrics, you are crazy.
And if you take the objective statistics praxis, someone is likely going to criticize that, outside of any specific case.
by Super-Structure on Dec 9, 2009 5:34 PM CST up reply actions
No one was equating Venn Diagrams and Sabermetrics in their value.
It was merely an analogy, not an equality. I’m sorry that wasn’t clear enough. There’s a lot of resistance on false grounds to new ideas that people don’t understand.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
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