Nets 103, Bulls 101: Won't say rock bottom since there could be a ways to go
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 8, 2009 10:04 PM CST
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Print| Pace | Eff | eFG | FT/FG | OREB% | TOr | |
| New Jersey | 96.0 | 107.3 | 47.0% | 28.6 | 28.9 | 13.5 |
| Chicago | 105.2 | 48.9% | 17.0 | 36.4 | 17.7 |
Bulls weren't embarrassed tonight, they're just continually embarrassing with this loss being another instance of it. Though of the 8 losses in 9 games, this certainly is the worst opponent.
And the Nets didn't disappoint in showing their ineptitude for long stretches of the game. But you could tell from the outset that the Nets smelled a win here, and they proved that they're just as good as the Bulls...or that the Bulls are just as bad as them.
I didn't see a team that quit on their coach, or played down to competition. This is who the current Bulls are, a team that's as good as the New Jersey Nets, having to put up a 31-point fourth quarter to lose by 2. I truly thought all 4th quarter that the Nets ran out of gas and the Bulls would narrowly get this one. And I was not rooting for them to lose as some kind of statement to show how bad they are. The fact that it was this close at the end, and they were down double-digits for a majority of the 3rd quarter, showed how comparable these current rosters are, win or lose.
(though the final possession was indeed a head-scratcher, with the Bulls having 14 seconds and John Salmons launching a 3 with a hand in his face with 7 left. I'm fine with not holding until the last shot in that situation, but the 'quick' shot has to be a better option than that, and Rose has to at least touch the ball. Also, Vinny ran out of timeouts, and he subbed out Taj (one of the team's best offensive re bounders) before Rose missed the final rebound, which I believe was on purpose? Anyway, credit Kiki Vandeweghe and his cool glasses for fouling Rose up three.)
A young duo of Harris-Lopez that's possibly better than Rose-Noah (Rose had a great second half when he realized a bit late that they needed him to score a lot, but Lopez dominated Noah). Middling wings in Lee and CDR that seemed interchangeable with Salmons-Deng at a fraction of the price. Crappy depth all-around.
Taj Gibson had a great night shooting the ball, but registered two defensive rebounds in over 35 minutes. He actually was benched in favor of Brad Miller to start tonight's game, a move I'm in favor of...but Miller looks one step over the hill and provided nothing tonight.
It's real bad right now. And while I don't see any changes overnight, when they get absolutely hammered in Atlanta tomorrow, the Org. may have no choice but to do something to salvage the season. A season they were not really interested in anyway, but they can't let it stay this bad.
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You are absolutely right in saying this isn't rock bottom
This game coulda been a whole lot worse. I have a feeling this whole season is going to get a whole lot worse…
"That play was ‘Give the ball to Michael and everyone else get the @##@#% out of the way."
--Chicago Bulls head coach Doug Collins, on "The Shot"
We will really miss Ben Gordon,
when all the good free agents give the Bulls a pass next summer.
"Then you need a center so if the ball gets stuck between the rim and backboard he can reach up and knock it loose instead of having to spend 15 minutes trying to hit it with a broom stick." – Sam Smith
Yep
The idea was that they didn’t need to resign BG because they would find a better FA at the 2 this offseason. But the way things are going right now, no FA is gonna wanna come over here.
"That play was ‘Give the ball to Michael and everyone else get the @##@#% out of the way."
--Chicago Bulls head coach Doug Collins, on "The Shot"
by D-WadeChicago on Dec 8, 2009 10:09 PM CST up reply actions
nor are we going to have the money once Salmons inevitably doesn't opt out
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 9, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
Just get it over with already.
BG isn’t here to save us. This team is a joke. They don’t play hard and their awful. Fire him.
We are the worlds dumbest city!- Dan Bernstein
And replace him with who?
Pete Myers?
That’ll work.
Unless you can get someone good in, there’s no point in firing Vinny.
And I highly doubt anyone good would want thi job during the season.
don't care the players have quit.
Kill two birds with one stone.
We are the worlds dumbest city!- Dan Bernstein
Take a chance that somebody else will do a better job coaching Rose. It's worth it for that alone.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 8, 2009 10:13 PM CST up reply actions
yes! why stay bad?
bad is bad.. maybe someone else can do better.
We are the worlds dumbest city!- Dan Bernstein
no the goal would be to be mediocre.. because bad stirs the pot.
People complain and stop showing up.
We are the worlds dumbest city!- Dan Bernstein
The Bulls would
have about the same record w/ Ben Gordon
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 9, 2009 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
I refuse to stop being angry at JR.
Just get it over with already. BG isn’t here to save us.
We miss you, Ben Gordon!
by Granny Waiters on Dec 10, 2009 12:54 AM CST up reply actions
Reality Bites. The truth hurts. The Bulls suck.
But I still want to see Tyrus return and get lots of minutes. At least he can provide some highlights once in a while to ease the pain of all the lowlights on display every night when this sorry crew is paddling around in circles while riding a whirlpool.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
Unless we trade him for Yi Jianlian.
He’s on his rookie contract for another year!
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
Agreed.
Without Tyrus, the Bulls are a jump shooting team that plays without flair. Sure Rose and Noah will provide a highlight once every two games. But this team feels like it’s got no energy. No life. They’re playing to get through the season, to get through the games.
I think Tyrus brings that energy. He brings the potential for highlights. He has the ability to block the shot, run down the court get a nice pass from Rose and bang in a nice looking alley-oop. No other player on the team can bring that kind of freakish athleticsm.
Tyrus may not be as fundamentally sound as Gibson but he’s definitely more talented and he brings a package of potential highlights with him.
Play TT!
Yeah..
But with Tyrus they were a jumpshooting team with flair, with the potential for energy-upping highlight plays. Now they’re just a jumpshooting team, period.
A jumpshooting team with flair is the same thing as a jumpshooting team.In my opinion
I want Tyrus back.But its not going to me a huge difference.It will make a difference though
True.
As a fan though, I’d rather be watching a team that has TT running along with Rose than with Miller. Hahahaha!
Damn. I chose the wrong year start beig a Bulls fan. It’s like riding a bandwagon falling off a cliff.
Well thats true
As a fan though, I’d rather be watching a team that has TT running along with Rose than with Miller. Hahahaha!
For the Hate of Millerschmitz
I cannot believe we got rid of Drew Gooden, Andres Nocioni, Cedric Simmons and Michael Ruffin for Millerschmitz and Salmonchez. Brad is just an old, slow, flopper, and Salmons is a play killer. He just holds the ball and tries to play like MJ did (taking guys off the initial dribble). Everyone touted this trade and I thought it was one of the worse things we could do. They weren’t awesome players but they gave us several role players(depth anyone?) and people who could contribute offensively to the team in various ways.
And to add to that Sefolosa (a decent combo guard) to make room for Gordon who is now gone, and a draft pick of James Johnson?!? Who is running this show?
My GOD how we need Skiles back! He at least taught guys how to move without the ball. We were a jump shooting team, but we were a GOOD jump shooting team. Right now we aren’t anything, there is no identity!
Tyrus makes a huge difference.
He’s the best defender, he’s the energizer, he can get points, he changes opposing team shots, the lay up drills teams have been running on us will stop. Tyrus makes all the difference with this team.
by Mr Rhythm on Dec 9, 2009 8:40 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Best defender?
I would say Hinrich is the best defender. Tyrus takes to many jump shots but his blocking ability is missed.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
Hinrich is not the best defender.
Did you forget it’s not 2007?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Who do you think is our best defender?
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
Either Noah, Deng or Thomas.
All are better than Hinrich at this point.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Which makes it all the dumber they jettisoned Gordon for HInrich...
….and “defense”. Perimeter defense itself is overrated and the difference between Hinrich and Gordon at this point in their careers is, too. I mean, it’s a sizable difference, but it’s not some vast gulf between the best perimeter defender in the league and the worst.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
That's what I meant.
I guess I was a little wordy and murky.
Thanks for being succint.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
If I was ranking bulls defenders
Level 1
1. Deng
2. Noah
3. Hinrich
Level 2
4. Salmons
5. Tyrus
Level 3
6. Pargo
7. Taj
8. Rose
9. Miller
No one else matters. Tyrus plays a far more important defensive position than Hinrich, so I think he’s more valuable. Especially when you consider his replacements are Taj and Miller
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 9, 2009 1:48 PM CST up reply actions
that's also how i'd probably rank them myself, 1-9
and tyrus and taj are like, two spots higher in effectiveness or “harder-to-replaceiveness” due to abilities (incomplete as they are) in the paint. noah too.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
What does Taj bring?
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
I think Thomas's defense has become underrated.
That’s probably to be expected. People have said it’s overrated so often, that people don’t have much respect for it. His DRtg has been the lowest on the team every year he’s been in the league. I know he gets out of position, but I think the number of times he does that is exaggerated, and when he’s in position, he’s a helluva defender.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
yeah
he and noah (5 blks) have “greatness” to a degree about their games on d.
deng and salmons are just solid.
it’s very alarming to think that all nine bring something positive to that end, and yet the defense has turned very bad from how good it was going into the circus trip.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
I dunno where to put Deng
In general he’s very good, but there’s no one I trust him to really lock down.
What can the Bulls do to salvage the season?
Trading Tyrus for a PF might get Taj off the court and Kirk moves Hunter/Pargo over. But even so this isn’t a team that will contend for a playoff spot. As it currently is, I think there is no worse team in the league.
There’s no challenging for the playoffs unless the Bulls do something stupid like trade their damn draft picks for an actual player.
If the Bulls trade the upcoming first round pick, it better be top 3 or top 5 lottery protected,
since they likely will miss the playoffs.
unless the Bulls do something stupid like trade their damn draft picks for an actual player.
"Then you need a center so if the ball gets stuck between the rim and backboard he can reach up and knock it loose instead of having to spend 15 minutes trying to hit it with a broom stick." – Sam Smith
Didn't see the game but...
looking at the box score, Instant Offense (pargs) had a pretty miserable night.
Pargo was barely "catching iron" on a lot of his shots. :(
"Then you need a center so if the ball gets stuck between the rim and backboard he can reach up and knock it loose instead of having to spend 15 minutes trying to hit it with a broom stick." – Sam Smith
by Granny Waiters on Dec 8, 2009 10:17 PM CST up reply actions
His looks were wide open looks too
Some were so open he wouldn’t even drive to the rim where nobody was denying him a path.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
james johnson's 0-5
was a bit of a killer too. derrick missed a couple key fts back to back, but he did fine when he had to make and then miss at the end. for a guy that can shoot, taj seems locked in at around 50% fts and was 4-8 again (but made his last two, late).
pargo was obviously gonna miss everything on his jumper last night, and he wouldn’t drive an open lane either….
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
that would explain why it took so long to find a coach
they mustve scoured half the world to find someone with his intellect
they never really wanted Del Negro..
look at this roster.. I feel like they set him up.
We are the worlds dumbest city!- Dan Bernstein
D'Antoni probably saw it coming.
Said thanks but no thanks.
The only thing offensive on our team is the coaching.
by Khalid El-Amin on Dec 8, 2009 10:21 PM CST up reply actions
Reinsdorf said Defense
and D’Antoni got a sick rash and broke out
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 9, 2009 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
I read D'Antoni complaining about the Knicks lack of D the other day
He cares. I think Khalid is right on.
As I'm sure you know, the Suns efficiency was average or better.
They just played old-school, fast-paced ball so other teams scored more during games…. the masses were easily fooled.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Its really funny to me because almost subconsciously its like theres no way Vinny is going to do something to surprise me. My expectations are too low for the season I haven’t been disappointed all season.
But I just don’t understand why he does things like this. How can he not learn from his mistakes already and stop trying to out coach someone. Hopefully it was just a broken play.
Why would Salmons op out of his contract?
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Trade Kirk, Salmons, TT. Get some cap/players plz.
DA CUBS DA BEARS DA BULLS
right
I really dont see why anyone would pay salmons this summer unless you go with the theory that all the teams that saved the extra money for the big free agent of this summer will feel the need to spend it. But most of them probably just want to save money.
kirk and tyrus for kevin martin and Salmons for one of the Magic’s idle big men should make fod a good roster. Of course, you fire vinny. Then again, bulls might be dumb enough to sign salmons to an extension…nothing surprises me at this point.
If he doesn't opt out he has one year left on his contract, right?
So if he doesn’t then the best time to trade him would be in the summer to a team that would want an expiring contract after the 2010-2011 season.
As far as the org goes they can try and get Salmons to opt out by offering him a contract with more years. Only reason you do this is to get his yearly salary lowered, especially for next year when you are trying to sign free agents.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
ewwww
salmons is okay, but i’m not at all prepared for the possibility that he’ll be around for years.
nightmare scenario for the east is joe johnson joins lebron in cle, bosh wade in mia, and salmons, kirk, taj, miller remain.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
Just offering a work around if he doesn't opt out
They can entice him with a longer contract with a lower per year salary that way there is more money to sign FA.
You still go after Johnson or Wade to fill the SG spot. Make Salmons come off the bench. If they want to have the most cap room for this summer this an option. Either this or trade him.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
PLEASE TRADE THE POSTER BOY FOR EXPENDABLE,
Kirk should’ve been traded this offseason
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 9, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know what to say other than...
to me, this is rock bottom. I thought the bulls would do well this season, maybe win 45-48 games and make the playoffs. But when they lose AT HOME to a team that is 1-19 I am at a loss for words. I truly hope some changes are made. At this point i’d like them to just get some players that would play hard. Salmons sucks. We really need a solid SG and low post PF.
rock bottom will be when
we don’t sign any of the marquee free agents this summer
"...but the devil lives inside this kid, I swear it. It rises out of him in a mist, this baby-faced defiant wrathful version of Pat Kane, escapes his bodily confines to perform satanic miracles all over the offensive zone. The only thing more fearsome than that assist was the keep-in preceding it. The only thing more unholy than his face is his black magic." GMH
by Illini0509 on Dec 9, 2009 7:57 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I can't wait to watch this flaming trainwreck next Tuesday against the Lakers.
Anti-VDN poster will be in full force, I am taking any suggestions on what to write.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
Focus on the Differences between the Lakers and the Bulls
Lakers spend. Bulls dont.
Lakers win. Bulls don’t
Lakers have a coach, with plays. Bulls have a walking trading card.
Lakers have Kobe. Bulls have Salmons.
Lakers have Gasol. Bulls have Gibson.
Lakers have Odom off the bench. Bulls have Pargo off the bench.
The list goes on..
holy crap!!
Are you trying to make me cry?
"I'm in the Hall already, on the wall already, I'm a work of art I'm a Warhol already"-Jay Z
by bigballa10 on Dec 9, 2009 12:03 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry!
One thing the Bulls got going and should exploit is the fact that the Lakers don’t have a PG who can guard Rose.
LA has had a difficult time against quick PG’s (Brooks, Lawson, Rondo). Fisher is showing his age and Farmar, Brown and Vujacic can’t keep up with the speed.
Rose should be able to do some damage in this game because of his speed and skill.
Rose has a 35/12/8 game,
and the Bulls still lose 115 to 80.
the Lakers don’t have a PG who can guard Rose
"Then you need a center so if the ball gets stuck between the rim and backboard he can reach up and knock it loose instead of having to spend 15 minutes trying to hit it with a broom stick." – Sam Smith
by Granny Waiters on Dec 9, 2009 5:09 AM CST up reply actions
so we have the advantage in 1 position?
too bad the other position plus the bench it’s not even close…
we just saw them lose big to the Lakers 2 weeks ago.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 9, 2009 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
Here are a few
VINNY!
There’s more to offense than isolation!
&
PETE MYERS!
Ready for a short term promotion?
by NerdVernacular on Dec 9, 2009 7:34 AM CST up reply actions
What isolation?
If the Bulls ran more spread the floor iso for Rose, they would be more successful. It’s the high pick and rolls with Noah that are rediculous. It’s tough for rose to get anywhere with 7 footers overplaying. They can forget Noah b/c he has no jumper!
we shouldn't have listened to
This one is to all the people who said we needed a “post player”, we are seeing the results of it. I disagreed then and I still do.
We were a jump shooting team, a young jump shooting team. We needed to draft/trade for more 6-8 to 6-11 guys who can just run, jump, and shoot a bit (like TT). Noah is a decent player but I still say he was the wrong choice at the time. We needed more energy, and more offensive contribution from a F/C.
Our defense was strong not because we had a few 7 footers around the basket, it was because we were young, fast, and connected. Now we are just a rag tag bunch of guys, back to the Jalen Rose era anybody?
We use to run a lot of motion sets and plays. Other teams use to get tired playing us, as long as our shots were going in they couldn’t keep up! Man we had a good group of guys who were young or just out of college so they were good at it and willing to exert the energy. Now we are trying to play the crappy and boring NBA isolation game. I don’t know how many times I’ve yelled “BACKCUT!!” when watching a game.
Not as bad as we think
I agree with everyone here – we look disgusting. But, if we can find someone (surely there’s someone) who can harness Tyrus’ skills and teach him how to play, diving to the basket and around the rim, we have the ultra athletic four with an inside/outside game. Of course, the Bulls will likely continue to run him out of town.
If they keep him, however, we need to bring in a coach who is actually familiar with Phoenix-type sets (not those who occasionally provided color commentary about it). The coach will require that the ball remain in Derrick’s hands for the majority of the possession as he bobs and weaves looking to exploit matchups. When we do screen roll, Tyrus should dive hard to the basket, taking defenders with him and opening up drive and kick lanes for Rose. Deng will either slash off the weakside or spot up for open shots. Noah will continue to work the offensive glass.
You can’t beat the Gordon dead horse forever, but our biggest acquisition next year should be a knockdown shooting guard if we want to compete w/o stripping the roster (not that anyone will take Kirk or Deng). We commit to Tyrus 35-38 min a night and see what happens. That’s why I hope the dysfunctional Hawks don’t pony up for Joe Johnson. I don’t want a lumbering post player – I want players that spread the floor for our best talent.
And I want VDN back in Phoenix.
by Gene Banks on Dec 8, 2009 10:47 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Well the Bulls were like this last year.
Looked crappy in the beginning and shitty.Then somehow they sneak into the playoffs.Seen that episode already.I still have the bulls winning 40 to 43.no higher.And its nice seeing deng take more than one 3 for a change.
But I do want a post player.Each great point guard have a nice good PF or center.Thats what Rose needs maybe TT can be that,if he stops taking idiot jumpshots and just tear the rim off.
Try me.
You can’t beat the Gordon dead horse forever
"Then you need a center so if the ball gets stuck between the rim and backboard he can reach up and knock it loose instead of having to spend 15 minutes trying to hit it with a broom stick." – Sam Smith
by Granny Waiters on Dec 8, 2009 11:15 PM CST up reply actions
The reason people keep beating the BG horse
is because there were a lot of people on these boards that wanted him out. They said “Well he scores 20 but gives up 30” Or they said he was too short. Or they said that he took away from Rose’s development and that we wouldn’t skip a beat with Salmons there.
Everything BG supporters said came true. We said Salmons couldn’t play with Deng and that his one good season was an anomaly. We said that BG scored a lot of those last second shots and that he complimented and took the pressure off Rose. We said that his lack of defense was overblown. We said that he kept the floor spread and helped Rose ability to create. We said that not having a good jumpshooter alongside Rose would hurt his game.
So it’s really frustrating to sit here and watch EVERY freaking thing we said about that move turnout to be true. Now if the Bulls don’t get one of those FA this offseason, they are screwed for the next 5-10 years. It’s unacceptable for this organization to put that product on the court.
Rose needs BG
I agree with you. BG haters were blinded by the fact that Rose needs BG to thrive. It’s simple basketball really. Good players play better with other good players. Unless BG and Rose play the same position (they didn’t) I don’t think BG was hampering Rose’s development.
Gordon had the ability to spread the floor with his range and accuracy. No other Bull on this current team has that kind of skill. BG opened up the lane for the likes of Rose and Salmons. He took pressure off them offensively. This year, players re collapsing on Rose and Deng and Noah because they can live with Pargo or Salmons or even Rose taking an outside shot.
What sucks even more is that VDN seems to have tailored the Bulls offense to their exact weakness, outside J’s.
BG may have given up points on one end. But he always filled it up on the other end.
I hope all the Gordon haters are happy with the way the team is playing now.
"Then you need a center so if the ball gets stuck between the rim and backboard he can reach up and knock it loose instead of having to spend 15 minutes trying to hit it with a broom stick." – Sam Smith
by Granny Waiters on Dec 8, 2009 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
BG leaving was just half of the ''process"
The other half is a new coach. Unfortunately, finding a coach during the season means that coaches and assistants that are currently employed are off the board-for example, Kurt Rambis. That’s why the Bulls needed to do something last summer.
From the Penhouse (Celtics) to the Outhouse (Nets) in less than 4 months
How can we go from taking the (argubly the best team in the Eastern Conf. ) Celtics 7 exciting games into the playoffs to potentially the worst team in the league after running your highest scorer for the last four years out of town for nothing? In less than 5 months no less. The perfect storm of stupidity. Cheap ass, image conscious GarPaxDorf and BG haters who provided them cover. I plan to rid these idiots this entire year.
last year's playoff celtics =/= this year's celtics
without all of the boston injuries, that series would never have seen 7
"...but the devil lives inside this kid, I swear it. It rises out of him in a mist, this baby-faced defiant wrathful version of Pat Kane, escapes his bodily confines to perform satanic miracles all over the offensive zone. The only thing more fearsome than that assist was the keep-in preceding it. The only thing more unholy than his face is his black magic." GMH
Suns 2004-2005
This could have been a comparable team to the Bulls this year had they resigned Gordon and gotten D’Antoni.
D’Antoni works with short rotations and focuses on the development of the offensive skills of his players. He works simple pick-and-roll plays and focuses on attacking off the break. D’Antoni knows how to control the tempo of a game.
Rose and Nash are two different creatures. Rose is far more athletic yet lacks a consistent outside shot. I think D’ Antoni could have developed this and worked on Rose’s decision making skills.
I think he could have worked on TT to make him into the mold of a Stoudamire. They are both athletic and can attack the basket given the lane.
Deng could have been a poor man’s Marion. He has shown his rebounding skills and has a more consistent outside shot than Marion.
Noah could have improved his offensive IQ under D’Antoni. He could intelligently pass from the post to cutters. BG could have thrived in this offense.
He fits perfectly in this offensively minded system where he can focus on getting open for his shots rather than make his own shots.
As much as the players make the game. The coach’s influence, system and development has a lot to do with how they play and mature as players.
Every one of the Bull's players are "poor man's" version of that Sun's team
Noah and Gordon are the only ones who may be “comparable”
Good, so they wouldn't be a team that was gunning for the Finals in the West....
…but a team gunning for the second round in the East… w/ an average age of like 24 y.o. I can handle that.
CHAMPIONSHIP OR BUST!!!! (bleurgh)
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Lets imagine that..
the Bulls have D’ Antoni and running his system.
To be honest, I thik the parts of the current Bulls team + BG is a more talented crew than the Knick group he has now.
He’s be developing his young players while keeping his team above .500. Maybe even playing for the 5th or 6th seed in the East.
Now imagine that in a long term scenario, say 5 years. You have a team with an average age of 29, in their primes working in a system ingrained in them.
I say the Bulls can be a contender given that scenario.
I agree.
I was mocking. Gordon would have scored 23-25 points this year, his second w/ D’Antoni. He’d have 3 years left with about $34 million, age 27-29. He’d easily be able to be traded in a sign-and-trade.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
by tyger1147 on Dec 9, 2009 11:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I get that you were.
Just like the Bulls org mocking it’s fans. Damn.
by pinoyballer on Dec 10, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
And for the guys wanting them to lose.
In hopes of them firing VDN.I will say this.IT’S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN….yet.
god, that last play
was inexplicable.
nothing more needs to be said.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
That shot from Salmons
Unfortunately, I can’t say I was shocked that he took it.
outsidetheclubhouse.com
by OTCChicago23 on Dec 8, 2009 11:21 PM CST up reply actions
Next game with us down 1
VDN will sit Salmons on the tail end of the bench. Hopefully.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
only to be replaced by pargo
who, in another inexplicable turn of events, was running the end of quarter plays in the 2nd and 3rd quarters.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Dec 9, 2009 7:32 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
lol
So we have PARGO TIME, and now we have SALMONS TIME, I guess.
I’ll define Salmons time as any time where he looks off a PG to jack up a shot.
Wait, that’s … OK, I’m creating a new time, under which all times fall: Larry Hughes time [honorary].
…
Really … that’s just ridiculous though. Pargo running end-of-quarter plays? What?!?
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
ISO plays
when it was BG, i cringed. now imagine pargo!
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
can't we just iso Gray on the wing?
He has that hook! It’s baby smooth!
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
I hope you're right
but it’s not happening. Just as Salmons will not opt out of his contract. We’re going to be watching this crap next year too.
i wasn't surprised
as soon as i saw him up there, i knew he was about to do something.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
As soon as I saw him turn from Rose I knew we were doomed.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
If you look at the last 10 games since Harris returned we are about even with the Nets record wise
Plus we’re still missing two of our top 5 players
Well..
“about even with the Nets” is not a good thing. It’s like saying you’re “about even with a homeless guy except you have an extra pair of pants in your bag”.
by pinoyballer on Dec 8, 2009 11:49 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Why I'm still not just quite ready to waKk away...
Find a solid coach that teaches fundamentals. I dont care if he’s fancy. Thibadeu, Saunders, Van Gundy, Johnson, etc
Suck so bad they get Evan Turner who falls due to his back issues.. Reisign Tyrus Thomas. Sure, at this point, I’d love either have agreat back up PG in Ty Lawson or a good back up scorer at the 2/3 in Budinger and that banger down low in Blair. But I’ll take Rose, Turner, Deng, Thomas, Noah, trade hinrich for a pick and hope a bench of asik, gibson, johnson and draft sherron collins or malcolm lee.
Somethink liik thot tho iz pawssibil
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Gibson isnt as bad as some would think.
He did very well coming off the bench.I see him as a solid off the bench guy.He shouldn’t start for real, but he could be decent off the bench.
he played 36 minutes, the "bench" label was purely nominal.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
And he was playing against
Tony Battie and … that Simmons guy.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
ok?
What’s your point?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Oh, okay. I just didn't understand the response to me.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I didn't see the game
Just read ALL the comments and all I can say is WTF?? Honestly, I said they would lose because in reality, they are really bad right now. I figured with everybody healthy they might win 40-44 games but with injuries like they have, they are a lottery team right now.
"I'm in the Hall already, on the wall already, I'm a work of art I'm a Warhol already"-Jay Z
i think the picture and caption are a perfect metaphor
rose doing math is about how disastrous our season is
I'm sick of watching the Bulls lose
I need to take a break from watching them for awhile. Just going to hope that 2010 is a good year for them.
Hey, friendly bulls blogger, let me help clear up some of your time for holiday shopping and what not....copy and paste this as the recap for the rest of the seasons games
BULLS LOSE, BULLS SUCK, WILL CONTINUE TO SUCK, MOVE ON.
"All they do is mock me, just like they did the fat fellow. All the time mocking, mocking, mocking, mocking all the time! Now, it is Babu's turn to mock "---Babu Bhatt in the Seinfeld Finale Part 2
P.S.
"The fact of the matter is the chicago bulls have never been a contender since I left..."----Johnny Kilroy
by chi_till_eye_die on Dec 9, 2009 1:21 AM CST reply actions
thanks!
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 9, 2009 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
John Wall or Derrick Favors, here we come !
Bulls Org. had better make some move at the deadline to make some more room under the cap for a high rookie salary !
The Game chose him !
Wall is basically a clone of Rose
With more athleticism, if that’s possible. Bulls would be a fantastic fit for Favors though.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Seen
Him play. Not more athletic, but more agressive. Rose is more point guardy, Wall is more Wade like. I’d take Wall first if I was the bulls. He and rose would be fun to watch together.
by wfrv5 on Dec 9, 2009 3:46 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Eh, let's wait until the draft combine
I’m pretty sure his athleticism markers would exceed Rose; how that plays out on the court is another matter. And in any case, I’m not sure a Rose-Wall backcourt is a good long-term solution unless one of them learns how to shoot consistently, although I could see either doing so. With Thomas almost certainly walking after this season and Gibson more suited to a bench role, Favors would be a better fit though.
That said, Wall is definitely going first barring some huge breakout season by a high-ranked prospect. Basically all of the current top-five lottery teams (Minnesota, Golden State, New Jersey, Indiana) would take him; New Jersey might look twice at Favors, although they certainly could move Harris.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself.
Rose was pretty Wade-like last year too
But I agree Wall seems to be more naturally assertive and already has assumed the role of “the man” so early in the season. I like what I see so far.
"It hurts, man. All losses hurt."-Joakim Noah
bulls defense
they need to change it up. Play a pseudo zone or something along those lines cause they dont have enough energy to be guarding everyone one on one and switching on every screen with this depleted roster.
by Sambossanova on Dec 9, 2009 3:47 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
cdr was not interchangable with deng. not in this game, not ever.
i like cdr a lot because he has a unique offensive style, but the fact is hes like a bizarro Thabo: a guy who scores and does nothing else, who probably needs major minutes to contribute but doesnt quite do his specialty well enough to justify those minutes.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
CDR
I was really perplexed when he fell so far on draft night last year. Even thought he’s not so multidimensional, he’s better than 20-30 of the guys who went ahead of him. I disagree that he doesn’t score well enough. On a good team, he’d be a great scorer off the bench and on a team like the Nets this year he’s a bonafide starter. I’d take him over Salmons right now, regardless of price and he’s still in his second year.
really? cdr's game seems less predicated on straight shooting like salmons' and more on
getting near the basket and using an array of one handed floaters, push shots, tear drops (are these all synonyms?) and the like to get his buckets. it also seems like cdr finishes much better around the rim than salmons.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
Yeah, CDR's kind of a crafty-backdoor-cuts guy
and not a ‘Shoot threes!’ guy. He’s never been able to shoot the 3 too well.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
I don't think of Salmons as fundamentally a shooter
Salmons usually looks more comfortable shaking a guy by taking a couple dribbles and swinging the ball back behind his neck before launching up his shot.
I wouldn’t exactly call that orthodox
shoots on the way down
looks all 70s with the soul whiskers. maybe that’s what i like about him? weird old school game.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
I think we can count with 3 more assured losses in the next days
If we get lucky, the Bulls can lose against GS and NY too. If so, there’s no way Vinny doesn’t get fired. Is there?
Jannero Pargo = Larry Hughes 2.0
Probably not, which is too bad
I’m with Matt on this one. Everyone that wants Vinny fired ought to really consider what they think is gonna happen next. The odds of things getting worse are quite a bit higher than the odds of things getting better.
Making a move in desperation is rarely a good thing.
I understand what you guys are saying
but right now I’m willing to take the chance of the unknown over watching this piece of garbage basketball.
I mostly agree...
But in the end, I want assurances that VDN is gone next year. If it has to be now, then so be it.
Let's say the Bulls' season tailspins out of control
and VDN gets tossed. How do things get meaningfully worse? I’m open to the possibility that it can happen, but I just don’t see how at the moment.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 9, 2009 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
For one, Del Negro's not the worst coach in the world.
There could be worse. Bickerstaff probably isn’t, but who knows?
Two, Hinrich and Thomas will be back soon and they will make this team noticeably better. There might still be semblance of playing like a team and a common goal. If they fire Del Negro, they might all understand that the new coach won’t be around long and they’ll play for themselves. Unfortunately, they lost their best “create -for-himself-and-others” player in Gordon.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I'm only down for firing VDN if there's backup plan in place
and by backup plan I mean Van Gundy, Collins, Scott or (gulp) Avery.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 9, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
The Bulls playing better under VDN
is my biggest fear. Fool’s gold like that will only provide VDN with cover, making it likely that he survives to coach his third year.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 10, 2009 12:09 AM CST up reply actions
Possibilities off the top of my head
- The Bulls hire Bickerstaff to coach the rest of the year, the Bulls surge, and then they’re in the awkward position of having to fire Bickerstaff despite the fact he led a successful rebound. Because I don’t see any logic to Bickerstaff as our long run coach. He’s been in lots of places and had success in none of them.
- Bickerstaff says no and we get Pete Myers.
- The team gets a little better, but is still pretty terrible, and we expose the fact that they’re just not very good and no FA in his right mind would want to come play with us.
Let's say they keep VDN
and the Bulls surge (they’re at least likely to do better, given that Hinrich and TT are returning and the schedule eases up a bit). Then VDN becomes even more difficult to fire than Bickerstaff. And if the only two long-term choices are VDN and Bickerstaff, I’ll throw up in my mouth a little and choose Bickerstaff.
Pete Myers as coach is a pretty bad scenario, but how much worse can he be than VDN? And my guess is that even Reinsdorf would go with someone from outside before handing the reigns over to Myers.
Your third scenario happens even if VDN isn’t canned. We’re not fooling anyone right now. I think the rest of the league sees what we see — a team with a few good pieces in need of a legit all-star and coach. So the Bulls should get a real coach right now and at least start pretending like they’re a team committed to winning.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 10, 2009 12:05 AM CST up reply actions
I don't have any good comebacks to your points.
You’ve probably right and we probably just need to bit the bullet. At best VDN is a symptom of the underlying crap, but I think you’re right that there’s no way he’s part of the cure.
Maybe this team is a bunch of selfish bastards who aren’t great at playing ball either, but a little bit of organization on offense and defense would at least make it easier to get rid of them.
It would be really ironic if this group of players....
….are all a bunch of petulant whiners who quit for no good reason on coaches (instead of quitting in legitimate protest—yes, that’s a fine line), considering that this is the “good character group of guys” the organization wanted.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
They are wasting time developing Rose and it's clear VDN isn't going to do it
There may be only a 1 chance that the interim coach would do a better job with Rose but that’s better than 0 if VDN stays. I have no faith that he will suddenly figure out that the offense should be Rose with ball and actually make that happen.
Right now, they are worst team in the NBA. Things will likely suck as bad with new coach, but I don’t think they’ll get much worse. Would Bickerstaff really be worse? Maybe they keep the VDN offense and play Hunter, Pargo, Miller, way too much but that’s not much worse than what happens now.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 9, 2009 9:22 AM CST up reply actions
This shouldn’t be a desperate move
If Vinny does get fired, the Bulls should try to forget about an interim coach and get a real one. I don’t care if they spend 15 days or two mouths in interviews; just bring a real coach and forget about winning. Just focus on understanding what the new coach wants. The season is lost already and I think the only bad thing that could happen after hiring a new coach is to finish in a position where our chances of getting a high draft pick are slim.
Forget about Myers and Bickerstaff. Fire Vinny and get a REAL coach
Jannero Pargo = Larry Hughes 2.0
wow... i fall asleep
we went out for pizza after the game. -dave wannstedt
by BULLieving in Miami on Dec 9, 2009 9:57 AM CST via mobile reply actions
damn iphone keyboard
i was saying, i fall asleep during every freaking game. either i’m waiting til too late to watch on DVR, even though 11pm is not late for me by any stretch. that, or this team is just that boring to watch its putting me to Zzzzzzzs.
Salmons play was horrible. Lopez was doing work. i miss BG.
we went out for pizza after the game. -dave wannstedt
by BULLieving in Miami on Dec 9, 2009 10:00 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Nobody on the sidelines
can make Luol Deng use his head and stop dribble penetration from Devin Harris in the closing seconds so he has to pass to CDR to make something happen to break a tie score.
The Salmons shot was a poor choice, but it is the one end where I expect poor choices to be made. Veterans that buy into the defensive strategy have to make plays at critical junctures. Luol Deng failed and he failed miserably.
Vinny Del Negro doesn’t have to worry about his job security until we have full health from our short sighted roster put together by Gar Forman.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
Deng overall had a decent game
But there two defensive rotations that he didn’t make in the closing seconds which were killers.
One was when CDR got a wide open look at the free throw line and the other was when Harris drove the lane.
Deng is usually smarter than that, so perhaps fatigue played a major factor there.
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 9, 2009 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe Deng has a Vitamin D deficiency like Chris Kaman
Might it explain why you don’t hear or see much from him in the 4th quarter.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 9, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
wrong box, luol!
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 9, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
stacy was wrong, i feel
devin harris was gonna force a call there, and i’m not optimistic it would go the bulls’ way at that point. that rotation where two defenders are supposed to form a wall and take a charge is almost always split by someone that has the skill to drive that harris possesses.
it would’ve been nice if lu had blocked the shot. tyrus would’ve.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
I'm so glad i didnt watch the game
last night. I knew they were going to loose. The coach is terrible. This guy cant manage a game. What other team in the NBA would have guys Hunter and Gray. It’s a smack in the face of all Bulls fans, We deserve better. The Bulls constantly rank in the top 5 in ticket sales and attendance and this is this what we get in return. Its a joke.
not to tute my own horn but i made a plea last year for a guy like CDR. Some of you laughed but its that kind of forward thinking that this franchise lacks. They have no vision and are one of the worst teams in the NBA in evaluating talent and appearantly keeping talent and it’s not just because we just lost to the worst team in the NBA (record wise) because we all know they are much better than there record. Its because more and more we are starting to see what a backwards thinking franchise we cheer for.
A franchise where money comes first not talent. to think this franchise once ran MJ and Scottie out onto the floor. Talent brings money. they should know better than anyone. When i look at the Bears and Bulls I laugh. The bears are totally cheap and the Bulls are just as bad. Why can the lakers franchise have so much talent but we cant? Why can Portland and we cant. Fuck firing Vinny lets fire ownership. I’m sick of it. obviously TT’s value has shown over the past 8-9 games. We suck inside and his weakside help is important same with Kirk. So things will get better ina couple weeks but i dont think VDN will make it. Every mistake he makes now will be magnified. (deservingly so) I hope the next coach actually runs an NBA offense, ill be excited to see how Derrick does.
This message has not been checked for spelling or punctual errors.
Plan
Here is all I could come up with:
Trade Deng and Hinrich for Mcgrady. Let all the 1Y contracts roll off and go for a combo like Bosh – Joe J. or D Wade – Boozer since we can’t get two max deals. Hopefully Mcgrady stays injured and we sign him to the MLE and hope he returns to form. We could have lineups like Rose, Joe J, Mcgrady, Bosh and Noah OR Rose, DWade, Mcgrady, Boozer and Noah.
If we get NO ONE. Our downside is trading Hinrich and Deng for Mcgrady. He is only 30 and can create his own (bad) shot. How big of a risk is it really??
Plus I think Houston would actually do the deal.
I mentioned trading for McGrady during the summer
only because of the so called 2010 plan, he gives a serious upgrade at the 2 or 3 and he has a HUGE expiring deal. The only problem with your suggestion is Deng can’t be the guy for Houston to take. They have no need for him with Ariza and Battier already and his contract is long and expensive. Also they don’t have a true center with Yao out. A trade of Hinrich, Tyrus, and Miller for T Mac and Brian Cook works. I would prefer Scola, which also works, but he’s playing well and the Rockets won’t give him for up for our crap. They don’t want McGrady back because they are playing well without him and don’t want him to disrupt their chemistry. I think he gives us the best chance, given what’s out there, to be decent now and clear max cap space for next year. The big problem now as opposed to the summer is that all of our guys mentioned really are not having good seasons and their values are probably a lot lower.
"It hurts, man. All losses hurt."-Joakim Noah
I'm aware of that
But he’s also been one of the best players in the league when healthy, is in a contract year with a lot to prove in order to try to get maybe his last big money deal (reasons for this season), he has over 20 million dollars coming off the cap. What’s the worst case scenario? He gets hurt again and we suck and end up in the lottery. Well guess what? Right now we suck and are headed for the lottery anyway. I don’t see any real risk especially since we know they aren’t keeping Tyrus or (probably) Brad anyway.
"It hurts, man. All losses hurt."-Joakim Noah
The Rocket trade is a great idea, wish I would've thought of that
I was always working the Travis Outlaw/Steve Blake for Hinrich, but the Bulls screwed that up and wanted to get greedy and wanted Bayless included or in place of Blake, the Bulls were getting over in that deal, the Bulls don’t know but Kirk’s skills our diminishing, get something for him before he becomes useless
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 9, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions
ok so i just watched the recap of the game
since i missed it last night…
first off… devin harris is a lucky dude.
and second after harris hit the last shot derrick raced the whole court to try and score.. were we once again out of timeouts at the end of close game??
can someone fill me in on that? cause i would think that vinny would at least have that one figured out by now..
I'm cuckoo for Kukoc!!!
Not having a real coach is killing us
It has been killing us since the team turned on Skiles. Rick Adelman is playing without two of his top scorers (t-mac and Yao) and yet his team always manages to play any team close and win. They have a 6’6 center playing sometimes on the court and yet it doesn’t hurt them as much as us. We need to fire Vinny and if we all make a wish at Christmas cheap Reisdorf may sell the team.
Vinny is a terrible coach
But right now he’s not the real problem. There aren’t too many coaches that could pull wins out of what Vinny has right now. The roster lacks quality depth unlike Houston which has quality role players up and down that roster. Darryl Morey trumps GarPax everyday of the week. Of course Vinny sucks I just think it’s more a problem of horrible talent evaluation in putting together the roster once you get past Rose, Deng, Tyrus, Noah, Salmons, Hinrich and Miller.
"It hurts, man. All losses hurt."-Joakim Noah
So would I
He’s a good coach. I’m just pointing out the contrast between the Bulls depth (or lack of it) and Houston’s. I hate VDN as a coach. But right now, I had GarPaxDorf way more.
"It hurts, man. All losses hurt."-Joakim Noah
Ok, I think we’re not giving enough attention to what transpired in the final 27 seconds of the game last night.
The way I remember it, the Bulls have the ball with 27 seconds left. Rose drives and scores quickly, instead of holding and making the shot with 5-6 seconds left.
Then New Jersey one ups us, with Harris driving to the rim quickly and giving them the go ahead, with a lot of time remaining (I don’t remember how much, but why are they not holding for the last shot, or at least wait until there are 5-6 seconds left before putting it up?).
Then, with Derek on the wing, Salmons for some odd reason takes a 3 point shot with a lot of time left. Another spot where we can hold the ball until the end.
Am I retarded for thinking that one roughly equally good shot with 1-5 seconds left is a much better strategy in these situations than taking an early shot and letting the opposing team have a 40%+ chance at scoring the next possession?
The basic numbers show that these final 3 plays were horrific. While you could say the Nets blunders were less atrocious than the Bulls, even a first time coach such as Kiki should know better. VDN, on the other hand, has absolutely no excuse for this. For all we know he cost us the game last night because of his poor handling of the final 27 seconds.
Am I missing something here guys?
I think the Bulls were right to go quickly
what if Rose misses? than the Bulls are screwed. Go quickly, give yourself a chance to get an offensive rebound or to foul and force them to the free throw line. If you notice, the Nets went quickly as well.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 9, 2009 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
i think
they believe it’s most important to get a good shot, no matter the time if you’re behind. there would be chances for an offensive rebound or playing the foul-and-free-throw-game with the remaining seconds on a miss.
it takes a superstar with hero mentality to hold it for a win or lose chance (and it’s probably less than 50%).
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
If Rose misses, you can get an offensive rebound with 5 seconds.
The chances of winning when you miss and the Nets rebound is so so low.
The chances of winning when you take the last shot or leave 1-3 seconds left after a make are much higher than if you make it and give the other team the last shot (40%+ chances of them winning).
I’ll do some quick math here, correct me if I’m wrong:
Lets assume Harris and Rose take the last shots on their teams and they have a 50% chance of making it.
If the Bulls hold for the last shot, they have a 50% chance of taking the lead. When they make it in under 5 seconds, the Nets have to take a “pray and hope” shot because they have no timeouts. So lets assume they make the prayer shot 20% of the time (probably too high). That means the Bulls lose 50% of the time when Rose misses, and 20% (or 1/5) the time when they do make it. Meaning the Bulls win 40% of the time and lose 60% of the time.
Now, lets assume Rose sees a hole early in the shot clock. He can increase his chances to 65% of making his shot if he takes it. He does that. When he makes it he gives the Nets 10-15 seconds to take the last shot, or a 50% chance for Harris to score. That alone will mean that when Rose makes the shot, we still lose half the time.
Now if Rose misses the shot, we can foul. The chances of winning in under 10 seconds with no timeouts being down 2-3 points is going to be very low. We’ll assume a higher number, 10%.
So Rose misses 35% of the time and we only win 10% of the time if he misses.
So those numbers add up to to us winning about 41% of the time and losing 59% of the time.
So in order for us to choose option B, we basically need to take a much much better shot that early in the clock.
Change the #s to an equal shot early and late in the shot clock and you’ll get 30/70 if we take an early shot, and at least 40/60 if we hold for the last shot.
I didn’t take into consideration offensive rebounds because A) It’s a low % chance and B) if you get an offensive rebound odds are you put it right back up, you can do that with 5 or 15 seconds left just about equally so.
Let me stop you right here
“Lets assume Harris and Rose take the last shots on their teams and they have a 50% chance of making it.”
They don’t have a 50% chance of making them. Rose in particular has missed a ton of last second shots. I’m not going to check your math, but you are making a number of assumptions. If he holds the ball until 5 seconds left, the Nets may send a double team and he won’t get any shot off (see Milwaukee game). There is also a chance that the Nets will miss free throws in that circumstance. And why would you do all that math and leave out that Noah and Taj both have a offensive rebound rate over 10%- the 1 number that is easily found.
I think you are making too many assumptions, and even when you do, even you indicate that there is about the same chances of winning and losing whether you go early or not. When you are losing, you want to give yourself as much time to make plays as possible. I see nothing wrong with the Bulls strategy, in terms of time management, in the last two possessions.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 9, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
I agree
But what makes the difference is shot selection. Once Harris scored ( I would have put Deng on Harris and put Rose on CDR making it harder for Harris) The bulls were able to get the ball in Derrick hands but what was frustrating was that when Salmons got the ball and Rose popped back to the top of the Key and asked for the ball Salmons looked him off Harris was not even playing D on rose he even looked off Rose also I guess knowing Salmons was going to shoot it also
Just because Rose has missed last second shots does not take away from his FG %. You can’t just say “I’ve seen Rose miss some last second shots, so he doesn’t have a good chance of making it.” That’s Joe Morgan talk right there.
The specific #s aren’t too important, the point is the Bulls and the Nets have about the same chance of making a last second shot.
And you missed my offensive rebounding point. Even if we got 30% of offensive rebounds, we have the same chance of getting an offensive rebound with 5 seconds left than 10 seconds left. The point is that it’s not important because the odds are similar in both situations.
If they double Rose when he starts to drive at 7 seconds (in order to shoot at 1-5 seconds) then at worst we get a wide open jumper from somebody with 1-3 seconds left. Even Noah from the FT line is going to have a better than 50% chance at making a shot.
I just think you totally missed my point here.
And the only reason my math was equal for both options was in the event that Rose (or whoever takes the last shot) would have to find a 33% more likely to go in shot earlier in the clock to justify not holding the ball.
There’s a reason why most good teams hold the ball for the final shot. Watch the Celtics, Lakers, any team that really wins. They hold the ball when the shot clock is turned off.
It’s like the 2 for 1 play. I rarely see us do a 2 for 1, and when we do the announcers bitch if we rush a shot. A rushed shot in order to get an extra possession and one more good shot is better than just getting one good shot. It’s simple, and sad that more people don’t see this. At least players like Billups and coaches like Karl understand this and routinely do this, it helps their teams over the course of the season win an extra game or two. For a team like the Bulls, that may very well be the difference between another first round thriller and missing the playoffs.
agree on the two for one, they'd have to be terrible attempts for it to not make sense
it takes heady players (like billups) though. (did you see Kidd and co. run the final moments vs. nash and co. last night? both teams did it perfectly.)
disagree that the good teams will hold the ball down one point, just to take a last second do or die attempt.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
Do you ever see good teams in bounds the ball, down 1, with 17 seconds left and take a quick jumper or try to drive to the hole right away?
The best player holds it at the top of the key until at least 8 seconds left and then drives. This minimizes the other team’s chances of getting the ball back with enough time to put up a high % shot and still allows your bigs to put a tip in or offensive rebound back up before time expires.
I’m not talking about Rose driving and putting up an off balanced jumper with 3 seconds remaining. I think that’s what people are thinking here.
now i get it
8 seconds!
rose usually does that at end of quarters too. it usually don’t work.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
Sorry, I just meant he should take a shot around 5 seconds left, so we still have a chance for a putback and if NJ gets a rebound they have to race down the court with 3 seconds for a crappy shot.
Eh, if Rose can’t hit a shot then someone else needs to have the ball in their hands, regardless if 15 or 5 seconds are left.
beat me again smurf
well there’s a lot of assumptions another factor is the refs. they only want to whistle a foul on “advantage”. they make it more difficult to defend a drive against the team trailing assuming some significant time remains. they are less likely to call a foul on a drive by the team in the lead. and they don’t want to blow their whistle at all at in the final seconds.
as far as offensive rebs go, anything could happen. 5 secs or 15 seconds to score is a big difference (300%). the ball could be retrieved in the very corner for an easy trap, or an open three….
interesting, good work. but i agree(?) with smurf that the important thing is a good look at the basket. the bad ones (like salmons) rarely go in.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
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