Adrian Wojnarowski absolutely destroys Gar Forman
by fundamentallysound on Dec 30, 2009 12:47 PM CST
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Print[From the fanposts. Read the whole thing, it's dynamite. Not only going after Gar's behavior and actions but his very credentials. And there's some news in there as well: Gar reaching out to Eric Musselman? Bulls wanted the Tyrus trade for Al Harrington, and was turned down over the summer for Yi (that is anti-2010-space, btw)? The spotlight is getting bigger on Bulls dysfunction. I disagree with the later points about VDN not being that bad of a coach (he is), but it does show that Vinny is becoming a sympathetic figure given what's above him. -ed.]
As usual, Woj pulls no punches. He absolutely nails it on the Bulls' bumbling buffoon of a GM.
Money quote:
The best GMs relentlessly back a coach until the moment he’s fired, until he no longer has to stand before a locker room of millionaires and convince them he has the clout to do the job. They can declare Del Negro a coaching novice and all, but just understand something: The biggest Bulls amateur came out Tuesday night, tried to cover his own behind and returned to hiding again. Gar Forman has been telling people the Bulls need to find a long-term solution on the sideline, and well, whatever he thinks, it shouldn’t be too long until they come to his office looking for one, too.
Link here. Go read the whole thing; it's well worth your time. Always nice to see a mainstream media guy call out the Bulls (most of the time) seemingly Teflon front office.
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Forman sputtered, danced and deflected. The words wouldn’t come out of his mouth. For the first time, two sources with direct lines to the coaching staff said, Del Negro finally realized what he had refused to believe: Yes, the GM does want him out.
“To say the least,” a close associate of Del Negro said, “the staff was disappointed by Gar’s failure to step up in an embattled moment.”
Just Tuesday, Forman was on the phone asking about exiled NBA coach Eric Musselman. He’s telling people he needs a long-term solution for the Bulls. He had already called the Nets two weeks ago on Lawrence Frank. Another report linked the Bulls to Doug Collins.
Yet, now Forman is overselling the talent on his roster to make a case for his own front office genius. He overpaid Luol Deng and undervalued Gordon. Thomas has made terrific strides, but Forman couldn’t persuade the Knicks to take the young forward for Al Harrington this season and couldn’t get the Nets to take him for Yi Jianlian over the summer.
You mean the Bulls tried to get Yi?!
Of course the Bulls tried to get Yi
you have to open up the revenue stream in China somehow. I expect the great chinese point guard Sun to be backing up Rose this time next year.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 30, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
Now you're taking my babys?
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
Wait, the Bulls want to make money?
I thought they wanted to win!
"Oh, y ahora ¿quién podrá defenderme?" "¡Yo!"
I think Eric Musselman is a stats guy
I can’t say how deeply involved he is (I haven’t read it), but he maintains a blog that I see linked to occasionally on other stat guy pages. Here it is. If nothing else, it suggests he gives some thought to his methods.
Maybe he'd at least get the Bulls to stop shooting so many 16-23 foot jump shots.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
No, really. Kirk needs to GTFO. Trade his ass, GarPaxDorf.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 30, 2009 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
I thought Musselman was unfairly fired from Golden State
and deserved that second chance in Sacramento. But he quickly flamed out there too, and had a little bit of a ::glug glug:: ::vroom vroom:: problem.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Is that drinking and driving?
Or drinking and coke?
by Super-Structure on Dec 30, 2009 1:49 PM CST up reply actions
well he was arrested for a DUI
but i dunno about the coke. ;)
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
The good news
is that in Chicago he should have access to public transportation – he can cab it home after he drinks!
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
If he's a drunk and Artest would go across the street fron the U.C to load up, we may not need him.
"We can settle this like you got some class, or we can get into some gangsta..."
Goldie from "The Mack"
At least he's a competent coach
I’ve seen his blog a few times and he does know the game. He hasn’t had very much success though from what I remember.
Fan of the Chicago Cash Cows formerly known as the Bulls
knowing what players should do and getting them to actually do it are two entirely different things
most coaches have the first part down, it’s the second part that’s the real issue.
Also, nearly any NBA coach with a blog is going to sound downright brilliant to the average fan because most NBA coaches do know the game better than you or me or anyone else spouting wise online. The issue is always getting guys to do what you want and do it correctly.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
No, really. Kirk needs to GTFO. Trade his ass, GarPaxDorf.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 30, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe Vinny can start a blog once he's fired
I wonder how often he would use the words “thrust” and “attack.”
by Big D on Dec 30, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
oh, I assumed the blog
would be about hair.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
that's likely most of my problem in trusting VDN
he doesn’t sound like he knows what he’s talking about.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, but he knows how to give the team some THRUST
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 30, 2009 4:59 PM CST up reply actions
Good point
Musselman’s 2007 Kings team was talented: Kevin Martin, Ron Artest, Mike Bibby, John Salmons, Brad Miller, Shareef Abdur Rahim, Corliss Williamson, Kenny Thomas, Francisco Garcia, and there were basically no injuries, and still went 33-49.
Actually, his 2004 Golden State team was also good. Jason Richardson, Mike Dunleavy, Troy Murphy, Erick Dampier, Clifford Robinson, Nick Van Exel, Mickeal Pietrus. Lots of guys who’ve signed some mega contracts in recent years. There’s a possibility Musselman’s the anti-Vinny.
All of that is true
except that VDN doesn’t have the first part down.
Fan of the Chicago Cash Cows formerly known as the Bulls
Can't imagine that we would be a good recruiter.
Good for a scrappy team of hustlers…..didn’t we get rid of that guy two years ago?
The Chicago Bulls: Clippers East, since 1999
Even if he is a drunk, an experienced coaching drunk is a better coach than Vinny!
[my how the Bulls have fallen since Phil]
by KentuckyBullsFan on Dec 30, 2009 8:47 PM CST up reply actions
The Bulls are bound and determined to screw themselves out of Tyrus Thomas
it is only by the grace of other team’s short-sightedness, that he remains a Bull today. All summer I thought the Bulls should resign him because they could get him for very, very cheap. Now watch him raise his value this summer to something the Bulls won’t pay.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 30, 2009 1:00 PM CST reply actions
which is probably anything above $5m
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
What if they get Wade?
You think Jerry will commit some cash to a team that should be able to win championships?
PG Derrick Rose
SG Dwayne Wade
SF Luol Deng
PF Tyrus Thomas
C Joakim Noah
That’s a title team right?
"Oh, y ahora ¿quién podrá defenderme?" "¡Yo!"
if they sign Wade, Tyrus is gone. Why do people fail to realize this?
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
No, really. Kirk needs to GTFO. Trade his ass, GarPaxDorf.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 30, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
People with chapu or nba in their names might not be too bright
But this one knew.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2009 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Why?
They can go over the cap to pay for Tyrus, and with Wade they should be close enough to a title to get Jerry to retain Tyrus.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
In order to sign Wade
They would need to renounce the rights to Tyrus to have enough money under the cap to make a max offer.
Fan of the Chicago Cash Cows formerly known as the Bulls
Salmons
Does the Tyrus situation assume that the fish resigns for the last year of his deal?
Doesn't matter. BOTH must happen.
Salmons has to opt out and they have to renounce Thomas to sign a max a free agent. Or they have to trade Hinrich or Deng for expiring contracts.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Unless they trade Kirk Hinrich for Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw.
Then they can still win and have expiring contracts.
But they won’t do that.
So yeah. The Bulls are screwed.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
If that's the case
then I’m for keeping TT and going after a mid level guy. At least we will have a fun team to watch. Of course he’ll be gone in a year when they have to sign him to a long term deal.
If they can get Chris Bosh or LeBron James...
…I’m 100% for giving up on Thomas. If they get Amare Stoudemire or Dwyane Wade, I’m 95% for it. If they can get Dirk, Yao or Joe Johnson, I’m 70-80% for it. Anyone else…. Meh. They need to strike gold with a SG or PF in the draft, though, and I think there’s only a few guys that can step in right away.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I'll co-sign that
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2009 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly what I was thinking.
Why can’t Hinrich be moved this offseason? He’s healthy and he looks as if he’ll be more productive as the season goes on which means his value should increase.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 30, 2009 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
Hinrich can't be moved in the offseason because
you need to trade him for a contract that expires at the end of this season.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 30, 2009 10:39 PM CST up reply actions
Gar is a plant!
His mission is to intentionally screw the Bulls.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
that is why some people are so admant that Hinrich be traded. Even if Salmons opts out
they still need to renounce Tyrus. They can lessen the burden by dumping Kirk
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 30, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
right
they can wait till the last second to renounce him if they basically get a verbal agreement from the potential FA.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
July 21.
After that, they need the player’s permission/consent to pull/renounce the qualifying offer.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
If they can't wrap it up in three weeks, there's nobody we're gonna get anyway.
The guys worth it will probably have their decisions made pretty quick
I dunno.
Not that these guys don’t get enough thrown their way already, but I’d play the billionaire owners for all they can. It’s not like you really have to worry that the Bulls are going to say, “No, Dwyane Wade, you took too long, I don’t think we’ll sign you now.”
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2009 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, wait.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
by tyger1147 on Dec 30, 2009 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
But what about the headband rule?
Reinsdorf: "Well, Lebron, we’d love to sign you, but we have this rule about headbands . . .
Lebron: (walks out)
no
they have a month i believe. and obv the major free agent players are all going to be well taken care of by then.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
they have until July 21st.
I don’t think all of the MAX guys will be signed by then. Too many, in my opinion.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
perhaps you're right
i think most of them will have signed by then though.
also, they can still pull it after, but they have to have his consent. so if he realizes he is getting screwed, he could agree to let them rescind the QO.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
As soon as Free Agency starts
the max players will have max contract offers from all the teams that can afford to do so.
What might make the process long is if either one team makes an offer to two players and can only afford one, or if the players are willingly coordinating being on the same team, in which case a team like Miami might have to move a piece or two before both players can sign.
by JockstrapNoah on Dec 30, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
Which I think is going to happen.
They’ve been waiting for this to happen for years. I think they’re going to play it out. We’ll see, though.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
tyrus would still be a better fit
the choice between Tyrus and a 2010 free agent is a false one. The choice is between Kirk and Tyrus. The Bulls are likely to find someone to take their money.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 30, 2009 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
you know what sucks more
the kirk situation makes the ben gordon situation seem even more retarted. THey couldve done us fans a favor and just cut them both together…they basically chose hinrich over gordon, and have put themselves in a position where they either repeat the ben gordon mistake with tyrus while hinrich is villianified even further by the chicago media as being the “golden boy” or they end up cutting kirk, which makes the whole ben gordon vs kirk (only one of them can stay!) thing stupid….
GAHHH! This organization blows!!!!
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Exactly....
Very frustrating why we didn’t trade Kirk at the start of last season….even still….now we’ve hurt his rep further playing him out of position and playing him next to the far better player/talent; and at the same time lost a guy who performed well with our talent we had…..and now might lose another guy that the org decided to blow 3 years on and show all the upside but yank him around—hopefully the 4th ain’t on the way….hope T2 keeps getting the burn.
Sadly....through thick and thin....
maybe no one really wanted Kirk and his contract
[and the rumors about Minnesota or whoever were just that, rumors created by Bulls management]
by KentuckyBullsFan on Dec 30, 2009 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
If we sign Wade, that puts us at the cap
but not anywhere near lux tax. If we sign Wade and no one else, then we’ll have a lower payroll than we already do!
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 30, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
They'll only be able to use exceptions, but they could still come close.
The payroll would go up the next two years with Noah’s and Rose’s extensions.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
True, forgot about Rose/Noah
I was looking at payrolls of NBA champions since 1990; all of them except a couple Spurs teams (the first and second Spurs champions I think) had payrolls in the top 8 of the league. Sounds like you have to spend BEFORE you become a contender…
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 30, 2009 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
Basically.
Don’t trade Deng, sign a MAX free agent, and then extend Deng and Rose. They’ll be badass.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Well
True you have to spend to become a contender, but you also need to draft right/trade right…..
I mean without the gift that was Kobe to LA, you can scratch off all their titles (even with Shaq—might have won 1 perhaps, but likely with Duncan and Dirk, and KG and those Blazers and Kings teams, likely not)….
Miami wouldn’t win without Wade…
Detroit was the savviest building the team from also rans (Houston seems to be trying to do the same) but then again Detroit got a gift in Sheed….
And well SA wouldn’t win any without the Big Fundamental….
Once you get one of those talents, you build around them and spend on that big premier talent first, then the others as they renew…..Bulls hope Rose will be in those stratopsheres…who knows….there’s a chance, but I don’t know if Rose will every be > than
Garnett
Duncan
Nowitzki
Wade
James
Paul
etc…..still he could be VERY good (And well already is very good).
Sadly....through thick and thin....
They would not have exceptions...
If they use cap space to sign a free agent…the only way they would be able to keep the exceptions is if they were to sign and trade for that player (which supports the case of keeping all salaried guys like Hinrich around, so they could be traded)
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
DAMN THE CAP!!!
THE BULLS CHEAP ASSES NEED TO GO OVER THE CAP TO FIELD A CONTENDER!!!
I understand that in order to get a max FA they have to first have room under the cap to do so. But Bulls management needs to cut this bullshit about the luxury tax if they want to win. But we all know that the front office is cheap as hell. No big secret there. Like I said before, and potential FA is going to wonder about the Bulls commitment to winning seeing as though the Bulls aren’t the only team who can offer them money this offseason.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 30, 2009 9:23 PM CST up reply actions
that's true, you'd think he won't accept anything under his QO.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
New strategy
Keep the rookie salary scale in place indefinitely for anyone who isn’t one of “our guys”. After all, $5 million is a lot of money, right?
The Chicago Bulls: Clippers East, since 1999
Eek he actually makes a decent case for saving VDN
But rather than compare us to the 76ers and wizards, how about to the kings, rockets, grizz all who have equal talent, all who are playing better, and two have proven coaches in westphal and adelman.
And gar wants mussleman? Blah
by The90sBullsRevival on Dec 30, 2009 1:00 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Mussleman == cheapest option mentioned so far.
by JockstrapNoah on Dec 30, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions
Seriously
Mussleman might be cheaper than Vinny.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
Only the Bulls would reach out to Eric Mussleman,
they might as well talk to Mike Montgomery, Leonard Hamilton, Sam Vincent
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 30, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions
I heard the Bulls were going after Paul Silas
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 30, 2009 5:03 PM CST up reply actions
Gar deserves this
but even more than that, Pax deserves to be ripped because he is technically over Gar.
Fan of the Chicago Cash Cows formerly known as the Bulls
Pax deserves to be ripped
because he has a job he doesn’t want or have the constitution for.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions
But I'm pretty sure he's made Depends a lot of money...
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 30, 2009 5:03 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
How many coaches have the Bulls had in the Pax era?
I think he’s worn out his goodwill. But the real question is who is willing to work with Jerry Reinsdorf? Will any GM/Coach worth a damn want to work for Reinsdorf?
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 30, 2009 9:28 PM CST up reply actions
To Matt's point about VDN being a bad coach, I agree; however, all coaches have flaws
and I think it’s possible that VDN will someday be at least an average to above average coach. He’s got crap for parts. He’s not maximizing the talent that he does have, but very, very few coaches actually do that. Noah has improved a lot under VDN. Tyrus has improved. Rose is improving (now that he’s healthy). He plays a tight rotation and for the most part, the right players (Taj over Tyrus notwithstanding). He does plenty wrong (way, way too simplistic offense and not enough iso’s for Rose), but really a lot of the problems with this team are no BG, Salmons, Miller, and Hinrich all taking a big dump in their collective shorts to start the season and Tyrus being out over 20 games.
I’d prefer a more established coach for the Bulls, but I think it’s entirely possible that VDN goes to a team in the future with a more sane front office and actually ends up doing fairly well.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
No, really. Kirk needs to GTFO. Trade his ass, GarPaxDorf.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 30, 2009 1:05 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
I think all of this attention has helped him
grow into the job a bit. He is playing Brad and Salmons less but he was doomed this season regardless. The front office should be under infinitely more scrutiny than VDN.
Fan of the Chicago Cash Cows formerly known as the Bulls
I think his good points are his lack of coaching
He’s a players coach who doesn’t design much, expect much, or coach much outside of ‘energy’ or ‘attack’.
That’s actually better than what a lot of coaches do, which is fudge things up.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2009 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
I think one of the things he does best is not pissing the team off, seriously
How many coaches flame out because they manage to piss off their best players or implement a system that their players fight against? With VDN, if a player complains about getting more shots – they get more shots! Someone says they need more ball movement – there is more ball movement. He is so malleable and responsive to criticism, the players never have to fret because in a week, it will all be different. He doesn’t ask much so he’s never disappointed and the players never feel responsible for the losing, so they go out and feel free to make mistakes and learn from them. Its kind of how in college my roommates addiction to pot saved him from getting any more DUIs and losing his license. Sometimes the prettiest flower grow from manure.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 30, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions
I actually think Vinny could become a pretty good coach in 3-4 years
Obviously the Bulls don’t have that long to wait, which is why they never should have hired him in the first place. He’d need some strong X’s-and-O’s assistants, but he’s pretty good at handling players. But yeah, the article is spot on. If you’re going to fire him, just do it already.
I wouldn't go painting that rosy of a picture, but Vinny's come a long way since last winter.
He was like a substitute teacher who got promoted to full-time, and last season I felt Vinny spent more time on asserting his authority than actual coaching. Leaning hard on veteran players and instituting silly rules seems pointless, but from VDN’s perspective I can see the logic behind them.
The problem is, I don’t know what Vinny wants to accomplish. He’s trying to win games, but there’s no rhyme or reason from one night to the next.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 30, 2009 1:24 PM CST up reply actions
"I don’t know what Vinny wants to accomplish"
Can’t really blame him there. Look at the guys he works for.
Fan of the Chicago Cash Cows formerly known as the Bulls
I'm torn on this
I think VDN is in the bottom 1/4 of NBA coaches, so I believe that finding an upgrade wouldn’t be that hard. On top of that, I think when you have a young team in need of teaching like the Bulls, having a much smarter coaches is imperative.
On the other hand, how much better would the Bulls be with a better coach? 1 game, 2? The problems with this team are personnel related. If you rush out and make a bad hire, than you are stuck with him because no way the Bulls pay for 4 coaches at a time.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 30, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
There's a difference between "Giving young guys minutes" and "Developing young guys"
It isn’t necessarily a credit to the coach when a second year player improves. I think overall he’s done a fine job of allocating minutes, but that isn’t worth $2 million a year when it’s something I could do.
by YaoPau on Dec 30, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, I was going to mention that. It's a pretty easy counterargument that these guys would
improve no matter what because young guys nearly always get better each year until they hit like 24. Of course, there are exceptions to this, like Luol Deng, who is the exact same player he was 3 years ago when he was just 21.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
No, really. Kirk needs to GTFO. Trade his ass, GarPaxDorf.
by fundamentallysound on Dec 30, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
Deng is not the exact same.
His stats are similar but he’s getting his points in much different ways. Rebounding is up too.
by JockstrapNoah on Dec 30, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
Trade ya
Fewer Bull rebounds for shot makes. Interested?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
The one thing I'll say in VDN's defense
is we have no idea how much the front office is influencing him.
I, at least, had the impression they ran more stuff last year, and then this summer got an earful from management about “defense first” and whatnot.
There’s a thread of that in Woj’s article. That Vinnie has done what he was asked, not necessarily what he thought was the right thing to do as far as winning games.
All part of the "process?"
Perhaps the only thing that could have made Vinny look good given his tenure here so far is if he is treated horribly by management but keeps soldiering on valiantly, and when he does go, everyone will know that he was put in an impossible situation by dysfunctional management.
Now I get it……we’re letting him twist in the wind so that Reinsdorf can take care of him!
The Chicago Bulls: Clippers East, since 1999
Coach is Overated
I’ll start this off by saying that I don’t think Vinny Del Negro is a good coach. I feel his qualifications are non-existent and that he’s in over his head in a lot of situations. With that said, I still think it’s the most overated position in the NBA. This team isn’t where they are because of him, they are there because of the front office. Outside of lucking into Derrick Rose, the team built by that front office is just not that good (despite the littany of lottery picks we’ve had).
You can swap Vinny out with a great head coach and maybe it adds a few wins on to the season total. So they win 38 games instead of 35. They aren’t scaring anyone in the playoffs. Truth is that despite his flaws, Vinny still wins 55+ games as coach for the Lakers. Talent wins in the NBA, not coaching.
While I’d like to see a real coach put in place who could develop Derrick, the problem is so much bigger than Vinny. He’s being used as a scapegoat for an incompetent front office.
by Niwrad on Dec 30, 2009 1:25 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
You're right most of the time coaching is overated
But I think you’re underrating a coach’s power when they are Vinny bad. It’s not fair to say if you swap out this coach with that coach especially when your roster has young players because I believe with a good coach our players would be better than they are presently. Tyrus definitely would of had more experience under his belt, while Derrick may have gained much more wisdom from listening to someone who knows what they are talking about. Until the Vinny fiasco I agreed with you completely.
You're right, the coach isn't the biggest problem
But the Bulls are near the bottom in offensive efficiency, possibly because Vinny has no offensive schemes and/or plans. I can’t help but think that if we had a coach who could give us some real plays and a different sort of offense, we could up that offensive efficiency and win more games.
by Stacey_Is_King on Dec 30, 2009 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
Remember that year when Denver hired George Karl in the middle of the season?
They kicked ass and became an elite team when he came to town
The problem is that they'd be firing Vinny for the wrong reasons
He deserves to be fired because he’s a lousy coa
Oops
He deserves to be fired because he’s a lousy coach. Instead, the Bulls are firing him because they think they’re underachieving, when the truth is they’re about where they should be given their talent level. They were .500 last year and they lost their leading scorer; what did they expect to happen?
He should have never been hired in the first place.
That’s the most obvious statement of the 2000s. It trips me out that this front office now says that Vinny isn’t the guy to attract FAs and coach this team moving forward. WHY IN THE HELL DO YOU HIRE HIM AT ALL THEN IF HE’S NOT THE COACH TO ATTRACT FAs?
The Bulls are going to drive us all crazy Big D!!!
by lexdiamonds0730 on Dec 30, 2009 9:35 PM CST up reply actions
How long has Forman had this job? And people around the league already don't trust the guy?
No one does the indignant denial like Forman: From trade talks to coaching searches with a coach still on the job, his reputation has become the executive few trust, whose words and assurances ring hollow when confronted with his clandestine operations. Few will tell you they ever feel Forman has been straight with them, and finally, sources say the coaching staff has started to feel the same way.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If that's true, the Bulls might have trouble hiring a reputable coach
If you’re someone like Jeff Van Gundy, why leave a cushy broadcasting gig to work with a dishonest GM, especially when you’ll have plenty of other opportunities in the future? They can all see the way the Bulls have left Vinny out to dry.
I felt the same way after reading that part of WoJo's article.
What coach would want to come here with GAR/PAX hanging over your head?
Collins may be the only option since he is a “son” of ’dorf.
All your base are belong to Vinny.
The Other Problem
The other problem this whole mess has shown the league is that the front office here is not only incompetent, but classless. I actually feel sorry for Vinny Del Negro right now. He’s a crappy coach but deserves some respect from the front office. He’s been a good company guy and they repay him by putting him through this fiasco.
And that’s where next year is a problem. If you’re Dwayne Wade or Chris Bosh, do you really want to come to Chicago? Do you really think Gar Forman and these clowns are going to be able to build a winner around you? And lets not forget big name coaches. There is a reason that they aren’t flocking to Chicago for a job despite the promise of having an elite PG. Does anyone believe Doug Collins wants to give up a cozy job to be thrown under the bus by an unqualified GM?
The problem isn’t just how they’ve handled the VDN situation, it’s that they now have a reputation for being low class and incompetent. Just as no one wanted to play for Krause in the early part of the decade, history is repeating itself.
by Niwrad on Dec 30, 2009 1:33 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
it's strange
I thought the history of the Bulls was that they were full of, at the very least, ‘class’ . Maybe only to Arn Tellem clients. Or championships helped smooth over some of the rougher edges.
Even D’Antoni went out of his way to praise ‘dorf and the Org. after their discussions. But maybe it’s just in everyone’s best interest to say everyone’s great.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
D'Antoni said all the right things
and ran away from Reinsdorf as fast as his legs could carry him.
Seriously. People spin the fact that he didn’t wait for the Bulls offer as something bad about him. And maybe it is. But it’s also a pretty good indication that no amount of money would have been enough to get him to come here. That’s saying something.
Look how long Krause was here
The Chairman seems to value deceptiveness and dishonesty in his front office execs. And hey, it probably is a valuable trait to a certain extent. But you don’t want to gain a reputation for being deceptive, because that makes it a lot harder to do business with agents and other GM’s.
by Big D on Dec 30, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The Chairman likely values flattery.
by JockstrapNoah on Dec 30, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How Machiavellian.
How NOT preposterous.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
This is true in most every walk of life.
In the long run, being a douchebag very rarely gets you anything.
ruh-roh
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
No kidding
the chances of grabbing a top shelf free agent are sinking quickly. At least it won’t be an open secret anymore when the Bulls don’t get one, commentators will be able to point towards the Front Office’s dishonesty, classlessness, and incompetence.
by JockstrapNoah on Dec 30, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
The Doug Collins thing is pretty telling to me.
Good ol’ Doug was so excited during his last TNT broadcast I remember them giving him congratulations during the end of a game. He seemed pretty excited to be the next coach of the Bulls. They pretty much embarrass the man in front of his peers. No wonder one of the biggest Bulls backers won’t take the job now.
Free Vinny!
You have to be shitting me
Were they really saying this on TNT?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah I believe Kevin Harlan was congratulating him.
I remember it well. He was telling Doug how much he loved working with him and Doug was saying he would be happy to work with a young team and a great owner. But he also mentioned nothing had been finalized. I was thinking Doug was the guy.
Free Vinny!
For those curious about what 'scandalized' means when talking about Gar
Forman was accused of directing staff to guide “potential transfers through sham correspondence courses at the notorious Southeastern College of the Assemblies of God (SCAG)” Forman received a three-year “show cause” penalty for violating institutional control principles.
From wikipedia.
Maybe Dwane Casey would be a good fit with Gar then
Wasn’t Casey accused of paying off players as an assistant at Kentucky? Maybe Kelvin Sampson can be on the staff too.
You'd think with this background
Gar would have made multiple overtures to Dallas to acquire Shawne Williams.
Heck. Let’s just acquire all of John Calipari’s questionable recruits.
Dozier and Dorsey too.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
I can't wait for his appeal to DWade.
We can hook you up with this sweet job at a car dealership. You’ll be on the payroll but you won’t have to work, honest!
by JockstrapNoah on Dec 30, 2009 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
Gar's pitch to Wade
“Over the All-Star break you will have to work the drive thru teller at Harris Bank as part of the club’s deal with the bank. Oh. My bad. You make All-Star teams. Well, we’ll have to reschedule that gig for the offseason. Sign here.”
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2009 2:12 PM CST up reply actions
The Bulls' next head coach: Dave Bliss
Hey, he’ll definitely come cheap, since he’s now unemployable throughout the entire sport of basketball.
I did some digging on that last summer
Articles here
Money quote:
A report released Friday by New Mexico State said a seven-month internal review found that Forman and Chris Nordquist, also a former Aggie assistant, were involved in arranging fraudulent academic credit for correspondence courses for several perspective junior college transfer players.
The report alleges that Forman and Nordquist supplied answers to homework, open book exams and final examinations, completed homework and signed false signatures of proctors and perspective student-athletes on final examination request forms.
by Sports2 on Dec 30, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And this is the same organization
that supposedly values high character players even offer far more talented so called headcases. That’s a pretty bad scandal to have on your resume.
Fan of the Chicago Cash Cows formerly known as the Bulls
heh, you should read about what a classy guy Jerry Reinsdorf is sometime
(That was sarcasm… he’s pretty much made his fortune off abusing tax laws and asking idiot governments for their money)
Oh I have read about old Jerry
This org. is full of crap
Fan of the Chicago Cash Cows formerly known as the Bulls
They only value that because that's what the Shee-caahhh-go! fans say they want.
So as long as it looks like that, that’s all that matters. If they really valued hard work, they would have kept Gordon around. If they really valued charitable citizens, they’d keep Tyrus Thomas around. But Nocioni and Hinrich look like they’re trying way harder than Gordon ever looked and Deng, well, he is a pretty charitable guy. I guess one is enough.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
This from the same team that outlaws headbands because they are an affront to class and sportsmanship.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 30, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I had no idea about any of that until today
You’d think that might be something the local media would have wanted to mention at some point. If a new Bears GM had been sanctioned by the NCAA for committing academic fraud, it would have been a pretty big story. I guess the Bulls are just that far off the local radar.
local media?
h4w h4w h4w
Well, maybe Scoop Jackson. I’d count him as local.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
Scoop is also shitty reporter.
Nice guy, though.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
Wait, this is all good
Gar’s duplicity is a great shot at killing two birds with one stone. Gar and Vinny both get axed for irreparable damage to the organization’s reputation.
Now I want to examine tyger’s owners that haven’t paid the luxury tax and review their big name unrestricted free agent signings. It’s Clippers, Warriors, Bulls, and Bobcats. Therefore the list of big name UFA signings in the same time period would be
Bulls
60M for Ben Wallace
Clippers
65M Baron Davis
Warriors
50M Corey Maggette
Bobcats
Is there one yet?
I still think players, agents, and promoters have to look at the stack of millions the Bulls gross in profit and think the club is partially devaluing the league as a whole. There is too much revenue not to gross with a top tier talent team in Chicago.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
Bobcats traded for Jason Richardson
That was effectively their big contract. They (correctly) figured nobody would take their money, so they traded for a big-money player.
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
True, but that's a deal with another cheapskate franchise
in the Warriors. The Warriors drafted and paid Jrich so he’s not in the big name UFA category.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 30, 2009 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
I'd argue that he belongs in that category for the Bobcats
Since they acquired him without trading back a similar-sized contract (i.e. they were under the cap and could do the deal).
"You ain’t as hot as I is / all of these false prophets is not messiahs /
You don’t know how high the sky is / the square mileage of earth or what pi is." - Nas
I seriously hate everyoe in mgmt
Ruuumors..Sooources...Rummmors...Sourcess - VDN
by Belize on Dec 30, 2009 2:08 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
This is getting juicier by the day.
This is already in fun-bad territory. This organization is getting exposed nationally, and I love it!!
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
completely agree
the on-court stuff this year doesn’t matter anyway.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
Ah for me it sort of feels like
well i never did believe in santa clause (not christian, never really celebrated christmas) but i guess for those who really did believe in santa clause, getting tons of concrete evidence how it just wasnt true…or like when i first found out jordan was an overcompulsive gambling addict, who could be one of the meanest people you ever met….(still the goat though)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I actually liked that about Jordan,
and I wish more of our players had a little bit of ass-hole in ‘em. It’s why, despite his pathetic display in last year’s playoffs, I still am a big KG fan. It’s also why I love Denver. I like players with a nasty streak.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
It's depressing, but points out the truth...the GM/Owner are bigger problems than VDN
It’s hard to have hope for the franchise until Paxson/Forman are no longer the GM. Just look at the looming personnel tradeoff they are about to make:
Tyrus and Ben Gordon for Joe Johnson
That’s an awful trade-off in my opinion.
I think it’s clear that the only FAs the Bulls might get are Boozer or Johnson (and, no, they can’t have both). No matter what, Tyrus is gone like Gordon before. They are divesting the team of talent while Rose is here.
They’ve put together an awful roster (Gray?Hunter? Pargo?), drafted awfully (Taj and the incredibly disappearing JJ), and are proceeding to hang a coach out dry for possibly the entire season. And they questioned Ben Gordon’s professionalism. Idiots.
for the record, Im still a pro-paxson guy
He had a vision, and he almost had it come true…everything just went bad too quickly and he couldnt salvage it, but he was a great guy in the media, and by all accounts people just had great relationships with him. Im sure if he was an owner he would want to pay tyrus thomas (who he salivated for before the draft…no homo) would loved to keep ben gordon, and would have wanted skiles to remain head coach….who knew that wallace would suddenly suck, that skiles would quit on his team because they quit on him, and that hinrichs ability would decline (well i think they sort of saw it coming, what with the declining contract)….
But JR and Gar Foreman…i never liked those guy…ever
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Countless examples of John Paxson's stupidness has been already revealed!
Well piccolo really you can like who you desire, but 6 years ago put Kirk and 4 years ago put tyrus in another organization which develops their players first class.
And you’ld see better players today and the fault is attributed to the man leading the charge .. John Paxson a man with a very incomplete and incompetent basketball vision!
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
Well yeah....
But Gar reports up to Pax and Pax hasn’t nipped all this crap in the bud really since 2007 blew up…
Leaders should fall first, obviously Reinsdorf’s still around….Pax and Gar should go. Gar out of the org, Pax to either the bench or to the broadcast booth….heck he could still be GM but be GM/Coach until he righted the ship……he has to show he knows what he was doing with the talent he sculpted.
Sadly....through thick and thin....
He Cannot
That is the problem. For all of Pax’s good intentions he can’t take the helm now. He should have stepped down when he had the chance to and essentially has, although upwardly. He has few immediate media responsibilities and can keep quiet on past decisions while shrouded by the org.’s logo. I think the Good Pax of 2007 would willfully take the reigns and coast the team into the summer to eventually step down, but being hamstrung in the personnel dept. (GM ?) on crucial contracts now makes that a laughable scenario. Pax is culpable but why be the prodigal son now?
You miss 100% of the shots you never take...
-something i heard, probably basketball related
by The Mattador on Dec 30, 2009 9:31 PM CST up reply actions
How do you know where Pax ends and Gar begins?
If nothing else, the real kicker is that Pax seems to have at best presided over turning the helm over to Gar. Which is quite an indictment all by itself.
I’m pretty sympathetic to Paxson, despite the fact I’ve blasted him for a long time. But I can construct a narrative in my head where he’s just gone along with things that he wouldn’t have done himself. But the bottom line is that’s a shitty thing to do when you’re in a leadership position.
I like Paxson the player
And the broadcaster and the media savant…..but I’m tired of keeping Pax because he was a Chi Bulls legend….he hasn’t done enough and well wasn’t quite the legend of Pipp or MJ either.
I wouldn’t want him gone from the org, move him to the bench or have him take Funk’s spot…..that I would really like.
I think Pax knows the game well, and has mostly drafted well….but I don’t know if he has the balls to make the moves when he should make them, which ultimately is what a GM needs to do to be good in this league….
I know there were reports on Gasol and KG and Kobe, and those weren’t just made up in the media….Pax was afraid to bite….
And further, even if he’s technically not the GM anymore, he’s at a higher level as the GM and definitely should have been there in the Deng contract negotiations….
And the lack of them silencing the media through all this crap is ridiculous….
Move on Pax, move on Gar (Paxson’s puppet).
Sadly....through thick and thin....
I think you hit a point that i always thought of
I think paxson didnt just step down from gm duties because of facing the media (im sure that had alot to do with it, just look at his hair) but i think another reason was that he was way to attached with the team, i think paxson is an overall nice guy (so bad gm?) and that he really likes the players he drafted, gordon and tyrus included…i think hes the kind of guy who cant sleep at night if he fires someone, ditto for trading or letting players walk. I think thats why gar forman was brought it, paxson could still draft players (something i feel he enjoys and is actually good at) and he could still be the guy personell guy. Sort of like how at work you might have that one manager, whos not really in charge of you or isnt all powerful, but hes really nice and cool, so when you have a problem you go to him, because he actually cares…i mean look at skiles….the more i think about it, i think skiles quit more because he knew paxson would never have the ability to fire him, i always got the sense that paxson and skiles had good chemistry, they were on the same page, but when skiles realized the team had quit on him, he did paxsons job for him by quitting…
I think gar foreman was brought in to be the guy whos deatached, the guy who can make the moves paxson cant, the guy who can do JR’s bidding without remorse or sleepless nights, that explains why he was able to come out and say “hey bg, your our priority..” just so the media and players would like hmmm he seems pretty cool, but the second jr said to hell with him, gar obliged. Where paxson would stress out on the decisions, gar accepted JR’s will and had no problem. Vinny was hired by paxson, so paxson i think would defend the hire, but jr never liked vinny, and gar isnt the one who hired him so he probably doesnt wanna stick his neck out for someone he could care less for….
I think paxson is the only GOOD person in this organization,….
As a hinrich fan ill make this connection, Paxson is the same as hinrich is when it comes to being part of this organization. He is invalluable to the people who know him, he is deeply polarized by fans, you get the sense that he has alot of talent in his field, alot of knowledge, he ducks the media alot, is really hard on himself, and often makes mistakes and gets thrown under the bus….paxson isnt a bad member of this organization, but sadly this organization simply needs better..
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I think this could be accurate
But in my experience, it’s better to deliver the bad news yourself. The real test of a man is often how you make and deal with hard decisions. Sending someone else out to deal with it is, really, downright cowardly.
From a practical perspective too, I think it’s kind of lame. If you’re a good guy at heart, even if you fire someone or cut someone or whatever, you’re likely to go about it in a better way. If you send out the jerky hatchet man to do it, he’s probably going to do it in a jerky, hatchet man sort of way.
Thanks for saying .."stop making excuses for being a Man" ..politically correct!
Still if Paxson can’t make tough objective decisions constantly to better the team because he’s too personally involved them maybe he should go and become a hairddressor or something simliar where he would be in position to please all of his clients…
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
I'll take this one step further
and say that the Reinsdorf is the main problem. Sure the GM and coach suck, but who put them there in the first place? Strange how Reinsdorf remains nearly blame free in this article.
by drew gooden's facial growth on Dec 30, 2009 9:00 PM CST up reply actions
basically
KC is a tool…. well no he said the Bulls beat was full of nice guys that don’t really wanna make enemies. That it took Jason Goff (from the Score) to finally ask a tough question.
I noticed KC at the Gar Forman press gathering… just zoning out while Gar was talking and taking it easy. What a tough job.
Burnstein is a dick though he should get up off his ass and just do everyone’s job so he doesn’t have to constantly bitch about how nobody has the balls to ask tough questions.
Free Vinny!
Speaking of Goff
he continues swinging as well.
I was playing a guy named J GOFF on Modern Warfare today
can’t be a very common name, I wonder…
(oh, and Bulls management sucks)
Vinny Del OH NO!
by Juiceboxjerry on Dec 30, 2009 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
I thought that too
but you usually don’t see much subtlety like that on there. Plus there was the space between the “J” and the “Goff”, but you’re probably right.
Vinny Del OH NO!
by Juiceboxjerry on Dec 31, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
Wojo has it right
Talk about loyalty – not supporting your own coach publicly is amateurish at best but it is closer to down-right stupid. Who knows what Vinny has had to deal with behind the scenes. Foreman was a disgrace yesterday.
The sad thing is we do have a good core. Rose is really coming on. I thought he was terrific last night. We need a new GM as our #1 priority. This is embarrassing.
Foreman is also the one who said the number 1 priority at the end of the season was to sign Gordon.
The Bulls never made an offer. I say this towards Forman’s credibility not the strategy of not signing Gordon in lieu of cap space to sign a FA. I am comfortable with the strategy, not the lying.
Indirectly you answered and revealed if injustice is done to the coach we see why the players
are so messed up!
This includes all of them, not just Tyrus and Gordon getting screwed! Even the guys who were paid, are screwed by the organization and never become who they could have become…
You ever worked for a jerk? did your department achieve extremely high recognizition having the jerk in charge….
Some vet Bulls were thought one day to become allstars … (Deng, Hinrich) ??
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
I know the article was about Gar
But it really let Vinny off. He comes off as a victim of the big bad GM, which may be true to some extent but he deserves a LOT of the blame. This part of the article says it all for me:
Listen, there were a lot of people who never considered Del Negro coaching material. Some of his former teammates in San Antonio considered him the last Spur they ever thought would become a coach, but the Bulls hired cheap and hired Del Negro out of a player personnel job in Phoenix.
That's pretty bad, especially considering Dennis Rodman was a Spur for a few years
That means some of their teammates thought Rodman was more likely to become a coach than Vinny! Yikes.
Good point...
I would actually love Rodman teaching our big how to defend and rebound though! I remember reading an article on him and he was very intelligent in terms of basketball.
Wow, I just read the article and haven't read the comments yet
but I seriously think I’m gonna print it out and frame it, I loved it so much. The nastiness of the entire situation was summed up beautifully.
Vinny Del OH NO!
Gar Doesn't Matter
I think you guys are putting too much emphasis on Gar. Paxson is the guy who runs the show still. Gar was just put in place as a gatekeeper between Paxson and the media/players. Paxson is too thin-skinned to deal with that stuff on his own.
They all matter...
that’s the point of the article, and the point that should be made over and over again until fans get it. Vinny is the one who doesn’t matter.
Effing fantastic article!
What I’ve been saying all along… VDN is getting too much attention here. It’s the management that’s to blame and they’re hiding behind the terrible local basketball coverage that’s targeting the coach.
Watching Gar speak to reporters yesterday made me seriously want to punch him in the face. And I’m not a VDN supporter, I just think he is getting a raw deal by the guys who hired him. And I think (as YFBB said yesterday) a professional would have sworn till the day he was fired that VDN’s job was safe. His answers about “not talking about speculation within the org” were complete bullshit and so very transparent. How do you leave a coach and his players in limbo by skirting the issue so god-awfully?! You’re really trying to set the team up for a losing streak if you can’t say something as simple as “Vinny is our coach, period.”
How can he lie to bulls fans all last year about “signing BG is our #1 off-season priority” (when it wasn’t), yet not give his coach who he hired after months of searching a simple vote of confidence, even if it’s a small lie?
Plus, totally OT but THAT DUDE IS SO CREEPY! What a truly weird looking man that Gar is. If I were a player I’d be a little freaked out by him. Every time I see him I kinda laugh and cringe and think of that David Gest character.
by smash! on Dec 30, 2009 5:16 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Well on the positive side.. if you were not to bright in college.. then he might have changed your grades to As
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
by exult463 on Dec 30, 2009 5:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Fortunately I got all A's on my own...
…yet another think Rose and I have in common, ha.
But do you have a link to that story? I wanted to know more about that scandal he eluded to.
He's not used to lying boldfaced.
He has to do it in an underhanded way that demeans everyone around him. Kind of like a sniveling typecast person in a movie.
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
Next Crumbs?
Anyone think JR is trying to recreate the relationship he had with Krause who was so repulsive that he took almost all the heat for JR’s decisions?
by El Toro de Goro on Dec 31, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
great point!
seems to a pattern…
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
While one might be able to say they let VDN off the hook a bit in this article, the purpose of this article was to expose the newsworthy idea that the organization is the root of the problem here. They hired “cheap” as the article says and what could they actually expect?
Yes, AW does go a little far in contrasting VDN and the org, but I don’t see that as a defense, just merely pointing out that if you hire a guy like VDN and you take the Celtics to 7 games and you’re a 6 seed in the playoffs as of today with a tougher than average schedule, why are you expecting so much more from him?
It’s kind of like buying a Kia and then wondering why you can’t burn the BMW from green light to red. Sure, the Kia isn’t good for racing, just as VDN is not good for coaching an NBA team, but you should know this when you buy (or hire) them in the first place.
I’ve been hoping all along that we could get rid of VDN once and for all. I always knew it was an organization mistake in the first place, nobody expected VDN to be a great coach, at the very least it was highly unlikely he would be a good coach. But the key is that (and I think I’m not the only one) at the beginning of the year you could not realistically expect people like Gar or Pax to lose their jobs. VDN, on the other hand, looks a lot more replaceable. Hopefully with all the national media attention on this debacle, more heads than just VDN’s have to roll. It’s in the best interest of the fans that care about this franchise.
And JR, it’s not about being cheap. You can stay under the cap and still make much better basketball decisions than were made this year. You can still hire a coach at an affordable price that can do a much better job than VDN. We’re not asking you to be Mark Cuban here, but we also don’t want a Mike Dunleavy style team here, and that’s what we have.
by RyPac13 on Dec 30, 2009 5:40 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Wow! excellent summary.. I love the part about national debacle drawing light! I sure hope so!
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
I thought the Bulls were searching for a coach who could be attractive to the best FA
Musselman, really?! This is just ridiculous. I prefer to have Vinny as coach than this guy
Jannero Pargo = Larry Hughes 2.0
Exactly
Who the hell is this guy to coach the Bulls and attract Wade, Bosh and LeBron? Do Gar Paxdord realize that Musselman is nobody? If this is becomes true, it’s even a worst decision than hiring Vinny
Jannero Pargo = Larry Hughes 2.0
Looks like a top-flite canididate to me.
Charles Woodson for NFL Defensive MVP.
by OznCoop on Dec 30, 2009 8:35 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Did anyone else notice Neil Funk talking about Gar during the game?
He said that Gar couldn’t have been anymore clear by saying “Vinny is our coach”
Haha
The whole org is a flat line
by Option27 on Dec 30, 2009 11:41 PM CST via mobile reply actions
And Sacramento said,
“Maybe next time you’ll pay 5/55 for your good player and not 5/72.
Also, no.”
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
lol, yeah, whoops.
Whatever, “facts”.
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
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