The King of Chicago... it's not Mike North.
about 2 years ago
SoulEater7
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Where'd you find this?
The mania is still runnin' wild and the madness still flows through the veins.
by The Mega Powers on Dec 3, 2009 2:11 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
I just realized why teams are slow to incorporate stats
Jerry doesn’t look at Ben Gordon as a player, he looks at him as a salesman or entertainer. The guy’s a baseball fan. He was born in Brooklyn in 1936, and probably grew up idolizing the Dodgers, who had Jackie Robinson and Pee Wee Reese and later on Koufax and Drysdale. The Knicks best player during Reinsdorf’s youth was Max Zaslofsky.
We know the Bulls are his financial investment. Between this year’s salary, luxury tax fine, and loss of luxury tax revenue, keeping Gordon would’ve cost Jerry around $21 mil this year. Gordon doesn’t put fans in seats, I doubt he would’ve sold many jerseys this season, and he likely wouldn’t have added much playoff revenue. Long term, if you can package him for Wade/Bosh/LeBron, it’s a great sign, but that’s a big questionmark.
So that’s it. Jerry’s a loyal friend, an amazingly smart, shrewd businessman who’s been two steps ahead of the rest of the league financially for decades. If Gordon sells tickets and jerseys, Jerry will sign him. He doesn’t, so at a $21 million dollar cost, why should Jerry give a shit if Gordon’s a +0, +1, +2, +anything?
by YaoPau on Dec 3, 2009 9:14 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Nice...
rec
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
except that they're on a fine line of making the playoffs.
They get at least two home games for one playoff appearance. That’s… $4 million dollars back just for that. And only this season. So +1 or +2 might be the difference between 1 or 2 wins which might be the difference between playoffs or not.
The best way to attract and keep fans is to win. If Thomas leaves and they don’t get a superduperstar, they might actually start to make less money for the four or five years, possibly missing the playoffs. If they had Gordon (and thus, could keep Thomas), they’d at least insure themselves of 45-50 wins and making the playoffs… or $4 million a year, at minimum.
And I know Reinsdorf doesn’t see it like that because he doesn’t know stats, he doesn’t realize the value of Gordon and projections. He sees that he would cost him $21 million this year and he knows he wouldn’t get it back. He didn’t realize that there is a chance they miss the playoffs this year and strike out this off-season and miss the playoffs for the next few years, costing him millions more than Gordon would have.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Think about this for a second.... Bulls don't trade Hinrich or Deng, Salmons opts in.
There goes Wade, Johnson, Bosh, Stoudemire, Nowitzki, Yao, James, etc.
Thomas dupes some other team into giving him $11-12 million; Bulls don’t match.
Bulls miss the playoffs this year by one or two wins.
Let’s guess (this is scary), that Rose isn’t a superduperstar. He’s a different Ben Gordon. Instead of a shooter, becomes a driver, passer. Very efficient on offense but nothing astounding, little-to-no defense. Noah continues to improve; Deng stays healthy. Who’s playing SG, who’s playing PF? That team isn’t making the playoffs for the foreseeable future.
OTOH, they keep Gordon so they’re into the luxury tax. They might as well have tried to re-sign Thomas this past off-season for $6-$8 million this past summer. If he doesn’t take it, they can still negotiate with him next off-season. I’d say they almost guarantee themselves a playoff appearance.
Now let’s say they strike out on a sign-and-trade, but now they have Gordon and Thomas with the previously-described improvements by Rose, Noah and Deng. You have two very efficient offensive guards with complementary skill sets with little defense, but you have some of the best defense in the league at the 3, 4 , 5 positions. And the average starting age is 24.6. You have Hinrich, James Johnson, Taj Gibson, Omer Asik backing up. Plus Xavier Henry or some other rookie SG or Anthony Parker or whomever on a MLE or something. That’s a young team, but it’s experienced (as if Noah wouldn’t be a clear-cut leader by next year) and “playoff-tested.” I guarantee you it wins at least 45 games a year, probably closer to 50 and only improving as the guys get into their primes. Your oldest starter’s skill is one (along with ball-handling and passing*) that diminishes last.
And since I think re-signing Gordon hurts their chances to sign a FA on one hand, but helps in another, I’m for the course that ensures being good and makes the most money in the long-run. I actually think it’s a poorly thought out financial decision by Reinsdorf due to his lack of basketball analysis and probable irrational dislike of Gordon. I think he thinks Gordon and Thomas or useless on the court because they’re not consistent and therefore, they’ll never be good if they have them on the team.
*I think I read this somewhere, but I can’t be sure. Don’t take that statement as truth if you don’t want to.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Dec 3, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, I guess to read that, you'd have to think of it for more than a second.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
The counter to that would be
How many more home playoff games does Gordon realistically add this year? I’d guess the expected estimate without Gordon on July 1st was 2.5, meaning on average, we’d lose in 5 or 6 games in the first round as the lower seed. There’s a chance we make the 2nd round, or miss the playoffs entirely. Who knows what those percentages are, but on average, I think 2.5 would’ve been my guess.
With Gordon, that increases to what, 3? 3.5 at most? At $2 million per home game, that’s an expected increase of $2 million in playoff revenue this year from signing Gordon.
And let’s say your future predictions ring true, and the Bulls are at the 45 win mark for the next 5 years. Take out Gordon from that scenario, and how many playoff games does that cost you? Because at a $66 million cost ($55 million contract + $11 luxury tax penalties), he’d have to add 33 playoff games (6 per year!) to make it up in playoff revenue.
Granted, we’re working with a lot of unknown numbers, and he’d add some to attendance, and concessions, and merchandise sales as well. And in other scenarios, he increases the chances of getting a big name in 2010, and he’s a good trade piece down the line. Who knows the percentages, and I’m sure they add up. But $66 million is a massive investment in anything, and financially speaking, unless the Bulls were able to package Gordon for a star down the line, my guess is he would not have been a good investment.
Also, this idea that winning means keeping fans I think is missing the point if the Bulls are just a financial investment. The idea isn’t to keep fans, it’s to make money. This is Chicago, and the last decade has proven that fans will always show up. If Jerry spends $90 million on payroll and sells out every game with a good product, great. If he spends $65 million on payroll and still gets 90% of ticket revenue on an average product, even better!!
Two things.
You’re not counting for the actual added value Gordon would give to the team in the regular season. Granted, the Bulls attendance hasn’t suffered yet, and it might not, but it could if they continue to lose.
Also, by wanting to go the outright signing route, they are making it extremely difficult to keep Thomas. If they miss out on the max guys and someone else pays Thomas and the Bulls don’t match because they’re still wooing Chris Bosh… yet the latter turns them down, what if Thomas breaks out with another team? That value is lost, in part, by not signing Gordon. I say in part, because even if they sign Gordon, it’s not for sure that they re-sign Thomas, but I think it helps a lot.
So it’s a lot of unknowns. Plus, on the fans showing up… the first five years the Bulls were horrible and the fans showed up were post-Jordan. That has A LOT to do with it. After that, the team was good and on the rise, until one bad season, then they got the hometown star. I don’t think goodwill lasts forever. In consecutive years they will get rid of their best offensive player and best defensive player (both arguable, but I think they are). Granted, the organization did a good job in poisoning the fans against the guys so they might not lose a lot, but if they miss out on a free agent next year, they could be a 25-30 win team for a few years. I don’t think the good will lasts.
That said, with all the unknowns, it’s easier to save the money now. I maintain the best way to make money, however, is to continue to win. I have no faith this organization will get a good team together any time in the next decade. I think that will make them less money.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
He also mentions that he wants to work with good people.
So basically you have to be Luol Deng or Kirk Hinrich or a character guy to play for the Bulls. No JR Smiths. So he’s taking great people over great basketball players who might not be angles.
I read your post Yao, started to get irritated, and then decided on a more general reply
Also, this idea that winning means keeping fans I think is missing the point if the Bulls are just a financial investment. The idea isn’t to keep fans, it’s to make money. This is Chicago, and the last decade has proven that fans will always show up. If Jerry spends $90 million on payroll and sells out every game with a good product, great. If he spends $65 million on payroll and still gets 90% of ticket revenue on an average product, even better!!
I dunno how many of you guys are familiar with one of Warren Buffet’s better quotes. “You only find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out.”
I think Jerry Reinsdorf is very good at making money for Jerry Reinsdorf. What I find objectionable about your post, YaoPau, is your claim that
Jerry’s a loyal friend, an amazingly smart, shrewd businessman who’s been two steps ahead of the rest of the league financially for decades.
Huh?
Jerry Reinsdorf owns a team in an industry and a city in which the tide has almost perpetually coming in. It’s nearly impossible for me to say whether a person is a smart, shrewd businessman who’s been given those kinds of advantages. It’s like calling you a smart, shrewd businessman because you happen to own a goose that that lays golden eggs.
That’s setting the bar for success very low. It means being a smart successful businessman means not strangling the golden goose. Or at least continuing to feed it. That’s especially true when you understand that Jerry Reinsdorf not only had the golden goose of an NBA team, he had the golden goose that was Michael Jordan.
With those endowments, it doesn’t take genius to make money. It doesn’t take risk. It’d be criminal negligence if you weren’t capable of making money.
You might ask, well, why is Reinsdorf so far ahead of the rest of the league when it comes to making money if they’ve all got those golden goose laying eggs? Two reasons. First, he had a second one (MJ) and a pretty large goose (Chicago) in the first place. Second, they’re playing a different game.
Face it, if you had a golden goose, you’d still want to make money, but you’d want to have fun too. You’d spend some of your money as you pleased. Say, on building good basketball teams.
So, while I can’t say whether Reinsdorf is a good businessman, I can say that he’s different in some crucial respects from other NBA owners. First, he’s had a lot more resources to work with, and second, he’s cared a fair amount less about basketball.
Take away the extra resources he’s had, and you’ll find that Reinsdorf is no different at all from Donald Sterling. To wit, Sterling recently said,
I think the Clippers can pay more than any team in America. We have unlimited resources. I’d be thrilled to pay [$121 million as the Lakers will do this season] and do it tomorrow, if I could only sign quality players who warranted it."
Not much different than what Reinsdorf has said, and in truth, they operate on a pretty similar basis.
by Sports2 on Dec 3, 2009 2:48 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
I said Reinsdorf is shrewd businessman because that's been the mark of his career
The guy wasn’t born into money, yet he made enough in real estate to own two sports teams. Unless you’re arguing that’s luck, you’ll agree guy’s a shrewd businessman who took the same focus on money money money from real estate to the NBA.
You’re right Chicago is an easy market to make money in (exhibit A: the Cubs), and having MJ made things even easier, but Jerry’s been amazing at making money nonetheless. The Bulls were terrible last year. Most of the season they were out of the playoff picture. They’ve been one of the league’s worst teams over the past decade. Yet they made $55 million: more than the Lakers, the Magic, the Celtics, the Knicks… more than anybody.
10 NBA teams lost money last year, including some from huge metropolitan areas (Nets, Mavs, Heat). The 76ers are on track to lose money this year. The NBA’s economic situation is as dire as I can remember. But Jerry keeps cruising.
$55 million profit in 2009 (#1 in NBA)
$59 million profit in 2008 (#1 in NBA)
This year? There were preseason ticket discounts that probably hurt the chairman’s pocket a tad, but when you look at per game attendance, there’s the Bulls…
21,179 per game in 2010 (#1 in NBA)
Say what you want about Michael and Chicago and whatnot, but Jerry’s been fantastic at milking every dollar from this he can without any media backlash.
You were comparing him to other owners and I followed suit.
And the NBA’s ownership is filled with guys who were self-made. So again, in that sense, most every NBA owner is a “shrewd businessman” compared to the average schmuck off the street.
However, it’s probably instructional to look at the business shrewdness that made his fortune and enabled him to buy his teams and contrast them to other guys.
Like I said, there are plenty of self-made NBA owners who made their fortunes by doing remarkable things. Mark Cuban and Paul Allen came from working or middle class backgrounds and developed computer software used by hundreds of millions of people. Jerry Colangelo was the definition of “sweat equity”. He started in the basketball world as an assistant coach and worked his way up to owning the Suns and Arizona Diamondbacks. THAT is shrewdness.
In contrast, Jerry Reinsdorf didn’t really make a fortune inventing a great product people were willing to pay for, skillfully managing basketball teams, or even really managing and developing real estate (like Jerry Buss, who did a fair amount of actual development and management while starting out with very modest means). Instead, he became a millionaire by going to work for the IRS, learning how to take advantage of the tax code, and then setting up tax shelters to help folks dodge their earnings. Interestingly enough, the primary tax shelter vehicle by which he did this was made illegal by an act of Congress some 25 years ago. Factoring in the leveraged public funding he received for the White Sox and recently, the Phoenix Coyotes (itself part of a pretty large and shady set of govt subsidized real estate transactions, the safer conclusion about Reinsdorf is that he is, in fact, a government made man.
Again, this isn’t to say he’s stupid or anything. I never claimed he was. But the fact is he made his fortune largely by taking advantage of the system, not producing a damn thing of value to anyone else. So much so that the primary means by which he took advantage of the system has been outlawed.
Now, on to the NBA. I did a quick calculation of the basic ROI an investor could expect from the Bulls. I used 2000-2009 and took, as a rough guess, the sum of operating income and the starting and ending team values. That is, suppose you bought the Bulls, or X% of the Bulls under Reinsdorf’s ownership in 2000. They were valued at $314M. The 2008 value was $466M. Over those nine years, the Bulls generated $423M in operating income. So add together those “dividends” with the $190M in “capital appreciation” you’d get if you sold at the 2008 price, and you’ve got yourself a $613M gain on that initial investment of $314M. That’s $195% total, or an average increase of 22% per year.
Pretty cool, huh? It is. Again, I’m certainly not saying the man can’t turn a profit. But if we’re looking at the Bulls as an investment, we ought to look at other NBA teams as investments as well. And when I run the same calculations for other teams, I get pretty similar numbers. I didn’t bother to do them for all the teams, and I’d imagine they get smaller for the really small market teams, or really pathetically run teams. But anyway:
Pistons 22%
Clippers 20%
Lakers 17%
Celtics 20%
Suns 20%
Spurs 20%
Rockets 24%
Cavs 25%
Jazz 10%
Wiz 13%
Nuggets 10%
Heat 13%
Kings 14%
Knicks 8%
Mavs 10%
Yes, the Bulls have been a very good investment over the last several years. On the other hand, successful teams and lucky teams have been tremendously and similarly profitable. So has similarly close to the vest loser Donald Sterling and his Clippers. Even teams that have spent and occasionally lost outrageous sums of money have generated what we’d consider very good returns from the stock market.
Nice find!
Sad thing is when we strike out on all top tier FA’s we will then offer a max deal to a crap player. Who we will all hate pretty much as soon as he signs the deals. its like this visous cycle. Who will it be? Prolly T-MAC or some broken down vet, who was once awesome but has clearly started the suckage. Not sure the list of FA available this next year but i assure you we will get him and def overpay.














