Bulls offense, 1st quarter vs. Knicks
by YaoPau on Dec 24, 2009 12:54 AM CST
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In light of this comment, that
"One NBA scout courtside insisted that, "Vinny ran three [different] plays the whole half and barely made any [play] calls. We don’t even know what to write down. They had a lot more variety last year, a lot more ball movement. It was almost like Vinny said, ‘Screw it, you guys figure it out.’ "
I decided to check the game film from that Knicks game. I used a crappy computer which could barely play the 1.6gig file smoothly, so I only charted the 1st quarter. Here are the Bulls plays along with # of passes and # of players who touched the ball in parenthesis. Note: I only counted passes after the offense was finally reset, so little passes back and forth before anything happened on a possession were ignored.
Play #1: Rose top, passes to Miller in high post. Rose sets pick for Luol then rolls back out. Miller passes back to Rose, missed jumper. (2 passes, 2 players touched ball).
Play #2: Rose top, Miller in high post sets screen for Deng. Rose passes to Deng, layup. (1,2)
Play #3: Rose top, Miller high post, Salmons crosses with Deng on baseline. Rose passes to Deng, missed jumper. (1,2)
Play #4: Rose top, Miller high post, Salmons sets pick for Deng. Rose passes to Deng, missed layup. (1,2)
Play #5: Fast break, Rose blocked. (0,1)
Play #6: Miller high post with ball. Salmons fakes screen for Deng and rolls out. Miller to Salmons, missed jumper. (1,2)
Play #7: Noah high post, tries penetrating, gets halfway and nobody's open so he stops. Pass to Salmons for missed 3. (1,2)
Play #8: Salmons top, pass to Noah in post, missed hook. (1,2)
Play #9: Miller high post, pass to Noah in post, missed hook. (1,2)
Play #10: Rose penetrates without being picked for, gets trapped under hoop, passes to Deng who misses 20ft jumper. (1,2)
Play #11: Miller top, swings to Salmons who finds Noah in the post. Noah gets stripped. (2,3)
Play #12: Fast break, Rose to Miller for missed jumper. (1,2)
Play #13: Rose top, Deng picks Salmons off the ball. Rose to Salmons, back to Rose, missed 18ft. (2,2)
Play #14: Deng top, to Miller in high post, to Noah in post. Noah misses shot, but tipped in by Deng. (2,3)
Play #15: Rose top, Off the ball, Noah picks Deng who gets a pass from Rose. Deng gets stripped while penetrating, gets it back, then misses 8ft jumper. (1,2)
Play #16: Rose fast break, passing turnover. (0,1)
Play #17: Hinrich top, picked for by Taj. Hinrich stops in corner, finds Noah in post who misses layup. (1,2)
Play #18: Deng top, pass to Hinrich for missed 3. (1,2)
Play #19: Hinrich top, picked for by Taj. Taj rolls, gets pass, drives and dunks. (1,2)
Play #20: Hinrich top, passes to Pargo on wing, Pargo throws it away. (1,2)
Play #21: Hinrich top, passes to JJ on the wing. JJ finds Taj in the post, and Taj steps out of bounds. (2,3)
Play #22: Hinrich tries penetrating, stops, dishes out to JJ who penetrates to the rim for a dunk. (1,2)
Play #23: Hinrich top, Noah fakes screen and pops out. Hinrich to Noah who penetrates and misses running shot. (1,2)
Play #24: Hinrich top, picked by Noah, Hinrich makes 18ft jumper. (0,1)
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nice summary of the first half, but let me sum up your first qrtr summary....
BULLS SUCK!!!!!!!!
"You know, when you said that last time, I was kinda trippin right. But now...you're right. I am crazy...But you know what else? I dont give a fuck."---Bishop in Juice
by chi_till_eye_die on Dec 24, 2009 1:31 AM CST reply actions
YaoPau
what do good teams average for passes/touches? These numbers seem quite below average.
I don't believe it's he actual passes and touches that matter
http://www.82games.com/dribbles.htm
It seems that the average number of touches is 2.7. While the Bulls were only at two touches per posession, 2 touches actually works out to be the most effecient number of passes in terms of ORtg. However, 2 things are bothersome to me (as I am sure they were for you in watching that first quarter). First, the quickness of ball movement is vital. It’s fine to break the defense down off of the dribble, but then the one, two, or three passes need to come quickly. More importantly, the person who takes the shot is most effective in a catch and shoot situation (0 dribbles). This was rarely the case in that first quarter. Lots of Salmons/Deng iso and holding the ball.
I see it this way. The Bulls don’t need alot of plays. Honestly, I don’t see them needing more than two plays. Rose breaking someone down off the dribble and dishing to a post player for a layup or a kickout pass for a jumper. Or, doing this same thing with a pcik and pop or roll situation. The only thing is, those one or two passes need to be quick and we need some jumpshooters. The Bulls biggest problem is that they don’t have the jumpshooters to implement this effectively.
Interesting point
I’ve always referenced the Touches/Sec chart, which shows a direct correlation between ball movement and orating. The high 2-touch orating I’d guess is skewed by quick-strike plays that result in easy buckets (e.g. one-pass fast breaks). That would also explain by zero-pass possessions have a higher orating than 2 and 3 pass possessions overall.
What am I reading here?
It looks like the Bulls ran every half court play in the first quarter for Deng and Salmons until Hinrich came in and they started running pick and rolls. If this is correct, VDN is a pretty big dummy.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 24, 2009 4:25 AM CST reply actions
I don't think Vinny is actually doing anything
Rose seems to always look for Deng or Salmons just like he looked for BG and Salmons/Hughes last year, and Hinrich always runs the pick and roll with the big men. Our point guards are making it up as they go because their coach is clueless.
by darksmokepuncher on Dec 24, 2009 8:41 AM CST up reply actions
I'm no expert with play design, but
it seems to me that you’d want to use all 5 players on a possession as much as possible, especially when your offense is struggling. And that’s a pretty loose expectation. Let’s say Rose is about to penetrate, and Salmons is standing behind the 3pt line. I’d count that as Salmons doing something. He’s spacing the floor and giving Rose a possible outlet pass.
But almost every play went like this:
(1) PG top, big man moves to high post. PG chooses whether to pass to big man or hold onto ball as the play begins.
(3) The SG and SF try to free one or the other up, either by a pick, fake pick and roll, or baseline cross. PG and other big man just stand there.
(4) With freed SG/SF rolling away from basket, PG/C passes to the open player.
(5) Jumpshot.
Next Bulls game, look for how often that pattern occurs. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Knicks ran 4x as many picks in that first quarter. They weren’t running a high-octane offense either, but everybody was moving off the ball. I saw no picks for Rose, I saw only two passes to the wing.
Agreed
The funny part is that this is not a bad way to start a play. If the initial pass is made quick enough, you may be able to force a switch and therefore a mismatch. However, the huge issue is that Rose becomes uninvolved thereafter. What if right after making the pass, the big man in the high post sets a screen for Rose, who uses it to knife to the basket. If the other big who freed up Deng or Salmons or Hinrich or whomever Rose passed to moves out to the short corner area. Rose might be open for a layup or lob. They could make this more of a give and go situation except the big is helping with a screen. If Rose is not open, have him circle around the big man in the short corner (he has no run through two off the ball screens) and get it to Rose in the corner. By now he may have a mismatch or may have a big man open on a mismatch. If not, have the big man in the short corner set a down screen for the man who just passed to Rose and go from there.
This is just me making up bs off the top of my head, but we need are big men to be setting more screens off the ball and Rose needs to be more actively involved off the ball as well.
When I first started watching the video
found here by the way (amazing site, a couple NBA games ripped each day in HD), I figured I’d be watching plays that were over my head in complexity. But it was the exact opposite; my rec league team uses more passing and off the ball movement than the Bulls did.
On the other hand, it looked like D’Antoni’s offense had one objective: to create chaos. After you pass the ball, you look to set a screen. If you haven’t moved for a couple seconds, you look to set a screen. If the defense gives you room to penetrate, penetrate as far as they’ll let you then look for the open man. There weren’t many set plays. Most of it was creating a lot of movement, waiting for a defensive breakdown, then exploiting it. And maybe I interpreted it wrong, but it looked a lot like the bs you described :) If something happens, exploit. If not, you’ve got 24 seconds to figure something out. The Bulls instead pass to players curling away from the hoop 18ft away and launch with 15 seconds left on the clock.
True
D’Antoni seems to run a motion offense. Note: this is not a pattern offense. He puts players out there on the floor, gives each of them roles, and the offense has specific rules. In this case, it seems most of his rules have to do with dribble penetration and screening. This is what makes it so cool. He gives players alot of freedom and they end up scoring tons! Motion offenses are run by tons of teams with varied levels of success. There are lots of ways to run an offense. Sadly VDN has gone with: “Well, picks are good, let’s start with that and then ummmmmmmmm”
You can't fit more plays on a 3" x 5" card!
Sadly VDN has gone with: "Well, picks are good, let’s start with that and then ummmmmmmmm"
We miss you, Ben Gordon!
by Granny Waiters on Dec 25, 2009 4:26 AM CST up reply actions
a little off topic schaudenfreude to make us feel better...
Toronto 102, Detroit 95
“Detroit tried, the team’s defense really picked it up in the third quarter as Toronto clanged away, but off shooting from semi-stars like Rip Hamilton (6-20) and Ben Gordon (4-15) did the team in. Then, just as it was attempting to make the game theirs in the fourth quarter, Ben Wallace’s 1-6 mark from the free throw line did his own team in.”
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