Kings 102, Bulls 98: Organizations lose 35 point leads
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2009 12:06 AM CST
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Print| Pace | Eff | eFG | FT/FG | OREB% | TOr | |
| Sacramento | 94.0 | 108.5 | 50.6% | 23.2 | 27.3 | 16.0 |
| Chicago | 104.3 | 50.0% | 22.5 | 29.3 | 19.1 |
Unfortunately I was out and had to watch this one with the sound off, so I wasn't able to devote my full attention to this game and the complete nuts-and-bolts to this collapse. But is there really any detail needed? maybe it's just...
Wow.
Well, not entirely 'wow', since if I had to pick a team that would blow a 35 point lead, it'd be a team who has one of the league's worst offenses, a unit that could go completely in the toilet at any time.
The Bulls were never 30+ points better than the Kings, so the fact that they looked so good in the first half was a bit of a mirage. A lot of it can be attributed to Andres Nocioni in his return to the United Center, a -28 in 16 minutes, shooting as if he had something to prove against old pal Luol Deng, though it was just reaffirming what we learned last year: when he's not hitting shots he's useless. (again: this is the guy Bulls fans give a standing ovation to while Ben Gordon got booed whenever he touched the ball) And at 1-7 from the field, 1 rebound, and letting Luol Deng completely abuse him on the other end, it was one of those nights for Noc. But the Kings have a real coach who eventually got that and pulled him for the rest of the night.
And that was just a minor point where Paul Westphal proved the difference between him and Vinny Del Novice. It could've been how Vinny didn't give any of the starters any in-game rest during a game where they were up so big (and have a game tomorrow night for that matter). Or the usual lack of execution in close-and-late situations.
But it's bigger than that. The team is just poorly coached all around. They were able to (literally) run out to a lead off of Sacramento's first-half turnovers, but when it came time to run a real offense they had no clue. When it got close, one team knew they had a star guard who needed the ball at all times, and how to get it to him in the best place to operate, and that guard was Tyreke Evans and the team was the Kings. They similarly seemed to have little clue on defense as to how to handle Evans besides putting their 'stopper' (cough) Kirk Hinrich out on an island.
But it's even bigger than that. VDN sees the need to keep the starters in because he was given such a deplorably incompetent bench. They pretty much have to go small (and it cost them some key defensive boards) due to a lack of depth as well (though if Tyrus Thomas was healthy, he'd likely still be sitting). Everyone knows that Derrick Rose is the future star of this team, yet he's not even made a captain. So when the team doesn't know that Rose has to have the ball, nor apparently can correctly execute a play where he's given the ball and the team gets the hell out of the way...sure, it's VDN, but also the people who hired him.
Our owner uses this team as an out-of-sight financial boon while he focuses on his true passion. Our VP of Basketball Operations was talked out of quitting by being given a promotion. The current GM's qualifications is stepping in and giving Luol Deng an extra 7 figures on his deal. They collectively spend nearly a whole summer trying to hire a coach, and end up with a complete unqualified unknown, and even while he proves himself to not be ready for the job, they keep him anyway.
So is it really that surprising that such an unorganized front office hiring an over-his-head coach could produce such a discombobulated team capable of choking away such a huge lead? That Rose wouldn't be given the best chance to finish out the game (though he's not faultless in not rising above it either), and the rest of the team would be completely tense up in 'support'? Guys who defer to the Org. are rewarded, and it's not surprising that it leads to deference in games.
But it wasn't THAT shocking or demoralizing. Is this loss truly any worse than the string of blowouts on the west coast, or the home loss to the Nets? It will get more attention, but if Vinny wasn't fired then he won't be now. They don't have a plan to handle the coaching, just like the coach doesn't have a plan to keep a lead. Gar Paxdorf's "process" is just as screwed as Vinny Del Negro's "attack", and we'll be watching the results for the foreseeable future, hoping a star player decides against his best interest to save us from it in the offseason.
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I'm embarrassed to say I was at this game...
and every other game I go to this year.
by Bulls Mouthpiece on Dec 22, 2009 12:24 AM CST reply actions
Checking in from STR guys
Ouch,
Just ouch. All I can say is how glad I am to be on our end of this humiliation.
I suffered through our heartless season last year so I know how it feels (a little – 35pts!!?)
I can’t even describe how many games we lost we should have won – but our 2008 record of 3-16 in games decided by 5 pts or less . . . .
It was ugly.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Dec 22, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
The great Ime Udoka scored 15 of the Kings first 22 points
to cut the lead to 95-91. You can’t stop Ime Udoka, you can only hope to contain him.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 22, 2009 12:25 AM CST reply actions
I didn’t get to see this “game”. How did Udoka score all these points? Who was “guarding” him? I find it hard to believe he could score that much even if the Bulls abandoned the court. Who made all of the 4th quarter turnovers….In summary, who’s responsible for this BS?
who was?
Rose-Udrih, Hinrich-Evans, Noah-Brockman, Deng-Udoka?, Salmons-Green?
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 22, 2009 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
I'd say this game was definitely worse.
I was at the Toronto game. Tonight we witnessed record-setting mediocrity.
This is one of those losses you’ll never forget about. This organization has no shame.
The next time I start to critize Nate Mcmillian
I will think of Vinnie and shut my mouth,I am an old guy and have watched a lot of BB,VD is the worst coach I have ever seen
by southern oregon on Dec 22, 2009 12:29 AM CST reply actions 5 recs
Even worse than Tim Floyd
and Quinn Buckner
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 22, 2009 9:40 AM CST up reply actions
I dunno...
I’m still pretty dissatisfied with McMillian. Not to say you guys shouldn’t be with VDN, but man McMillian is an overrated coach with a TON of talent, and yet has no idea what to do with it.
Fire Nate!
"I don't always read blogs regarding the Trail Blazers
...but when I do... I read Blazers Edge."
- resurrect_ha28
by FiveOhThree-RipCity!! on Dec 22, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
please talk to us
when he starts benching one of your best players for the 9th man in the rotation. Or he can’t comprehend how to use timeouts and I don’t mean advanced level of strategy but just having a couple left at the end of the game of you don’t have to watch them jack a 40 foot shot to try and win the game. I have more but I’m tired, but in short complaining about your coach to ours is like crying about a hangnail in front of someone who just lost his hands.
Point taken.
"I don't always read blogs regarding the Trail Blazers
...but when I do... I read Blazers Edge."
- resurrect_ha28
by FiveOhThree-RipCity!! on Dec 22, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
That's a great recap
Specifically I agree that:
1) They Bulls have no clue what to do on offense
2) The Bulls half-court offense isn’t run through Rose and doesn’t look to get him the ball when the need a hoop (Hollinger would be proud)
3) The Bulls defense to stop a hot player is put Kirk on him. And that’s it.
It’s crazy that this stuff will continue for the entire season.
For point 3, it reminded me of last year when Devin Harris ripped the Bulls without any adjustment happening (Rose actually went crazy-for him-after that game and quietly suggested they should have trapped).
before you hope that we fire VDN,
remember that the most likely alternative is that Lindsey Hunter will be made the interim player/coach.
by Uncle Stanley McGoober on Dec 22, 2009 12:33 AM CST reply actions
That'd be awesome
Cause who knows, maybe he can coach. And then he’d also have a good reason for being on the roster.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 22, 2009 12:35 AM CST up reply actions
This is the truth!
Our owner uses this team as an out-of-sight financial boon while he focuses on his true passion. Our VP of Basketball Operations was talked out of quitting by being given a promotion. The current GM’s qualifications is stepping in and giving Luol Deng an extra 7 figures on his deal. They collectively spend nearly a whole summer trying to hire a coach, and end up with a complete unqualified unknown, and even while he proves himself to not be ready for the job, they keep him anyway.
When you read that you just question your sanity for watching this team. This cities’ pro sports ownership is criminal. The only ownership that has changed over is winning right now. We can argue why players are bad but it really does feel like nothing will change until they change ownership. Thats pretty sad. This has been a really hard ten years for bulls fans. This moronic team is a reflection of ownership. It always is. They can’t make the right choices and this is the product you get. It really is a reflection.
I feel like some of my years have been wasted by owners who take advantage of a large market and a fan base thats willing to pay high prices to watch crap.
There is no leadership from the top down to the team. It’s just fucking sad. We’re watching and rooting for an empty shell of a franchise that has walked away and told vdn to turn off the lights. There is absolutely nobody at the wheel.
It’s fucking incredible!
People are starting to wake up and realize that it’s CASH COW OWNERSHIPS that are keep this city from enjoying life here. Thats what it boils down to.
GIVE THIS CITY BACK OUR TEAMS MORONS! Get the fuck out!
by SoulEater7 on Dec 22, 2009 12:34 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Sadly this is pushing me away from sports in general
Chicago ownership has the mentality of a Kansas City, but the bankroll of a New York.
by Bulls Mouthpiece on Dec 22, 2009 12:46 AM CST up reply actions
Fat chance of new ownership
Management has over 500 million reasons NOT to GTFO!
Game, set & match.
The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing.
Blaise Pascal, Bulls Fan
buy low sell high
What’s the problem?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2009 8:47 AM CST up reply actions
Bring another NBA team to Chicago
Then you’ll see that Mr. cheap Reisdorf exhibits two passions to spent money. To compete against the Cubs and that other NBA team. Starting to understand why Paxton considered quitting. Wonder if he saw this trainwreck coming after the Gordon and rookie coach hiring fiasco.
The Bulls and Bears
have penny pinched, the Cubs have spent money this decade, the Sox have spent money, its about management, coaches, and players, and two of our franchises have niether these 3 components
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 22, 2009 9:43 AM CST up reply actions
Cubs have been sold and have now stopped spending money.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I feel guilty
i Came home from lunch at the start of the second quarter….I saw hinrich with no hesitation knock down a 3…my first sight when i entered my house….i saw the bulls have 40pts to begin the 2nd quarter….i saw a confident team outrunning, out hustling…in every way outplaying the oppositions…i saw rose rise above the competetion….i saw what i had wanted to see for so many weeks now….i went back to work when there were 6 minutes left in the 3rd…i heard the kings knock down some shots….i heard chuck swirsky say “Haha, If the bulls lose this game, IM going to walk to new york”…..did he bring his walking shoes?
I heard nothing more of the game, i arrived at work and i exploded in hapiness (and i work at freakin walmart!!!) I was supposed to be off that day but i was working for someone else, and i hated being there, but knowing the bulls were back was a joyous feeling and i could take the turmoils of horrid walley world, i could endure because waiting for me at home were the wonderful highlights of the bulls game….
I started getting texts, like mad!! I thought people were just telling me about the absolute domination that no doubt took place, or perhaps they were talling me comical tales of how the kings almost brought it back and the bulls still suck…but yea they won,….
BUT THEY DIDNT WIN>>>THEY FREAKIN LOST!!!! HOW>>>IMPOSSIBLE>>>>
and now im feeling guilty, every story, every event says they began to lose the moment i was no longer able to watch or listen to the game…If i hadnt gone to work, would they have won? I dont know…but….it shouldve been impossible…the only thing that changed, from my understanding was me watching and not watching the game……and they lost…..my head hurts, im tired….and i want to swear as loud as i can…..god…..destroy this team….screw hinrich and rose….im….tired…..
Hope….i so hate hope….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I wish hinrich had been traded now
I hate to have to somehow support my favorite player when THIS CRAP is taking place…..GAHHHHHHH IM SO ANGRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Hinrich scored half the Bulls points in the 4th. So at least there’s that…ok, I got nothing…this just BLOWS…
Believe me
i was looking at his boxscore, and it looked good, he hit a good ammount of shots, 2-3 from three point range, had a bunch of rebounds, the only real knock on his boxscore could be his fouls (fouled out) and perhaps his 3 assists….but then you remember the 35 point lead which transformed into a 4 pt loss…and all that means nothing….I mean how sad is that, i cant even be happy for my favorite player!!!! honestly i almost feel like crying…almost….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Bulls management
For all the calls to fire VDN, I wonder when anyone in the media will call for a truly new GM to be hired. An exhaustive list of mistakes would be too long, but here some things that perosnally bug me:
The Bulls assembled the worst bench in the NBA — bad not only in talent but also in potential. You could have filled the bench with D leaguers that are just as good, cheaper, and maybe one of them turns into Raja Bell.
They are wasting a year of Rose’s development so that they don’t have to pay another coach while paying VDN.
They have no demonstrable plan for landing an important FA in 2010. They lack the damn cap space, and I’m not going to believe they are serious about pursuing anyone until one of Salmons. Deng, or Kirk gets moved for expiring money.
Obviously, one could go on with drafting a guy in Johnson who can’t play with a 35 point lead, minimizing TT’s value, the Gordon fiasco…
In fact, that last one is important for the looming future screwup. If the Bulls sign Joe Johnson for big money they will be spending more than BG cost for a guy that is older, a few inches taller but not appreciably better on D, and will demand the ball from Rose. That’ll be fun.
"The Bulls assembled the worst bench in the NBA"
Coupled with the other problems(losing Gordon and infected with VDN).
Gingerly they (PaxGar) signed Lindsey Hunter, and Pargo and Aaron Gray (already having Jerome James, aged Brad Miller and two rookies) and everyone wondered why why why this summer?
This Mgmt Office is a joke.. Oddly Reinsdorf had probably little to do with these signings?
Identify blame where it is due!
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
Don't sleep on Joe's
Johnson’s game, he is an elite scorer, and better player than Gordon will ever be, but I hope he isn’t their #1 FA target
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 22, 2009 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
how can this loss be explained?
I was checking the score on my phone, and was amazed to see a 35 point lead, and even more amazed to see a 38 point first qrtr by the bulls underachievers. So i figured the win was in the bag, and stopped checking until way after the game ended, and then I saw it, my phone telling me the bulls lost!!!! HOW!!!??!! I missed the game, so i truly cant understand how they blew that lead? I really dont think there is an explanation, other than they wanted to lose this game, on purpose..This team makes me sick
"You know, when you said that last time, I was kinda trippin right. But now...you're right. I am crazy...But you know what else? I dont give a fuck."---Bishop in Juice
by chi_till_eye_die on Dec 22, 2009 12:55 AM CST reply actions
Yea the first half was
All about showing the nba what they can do…and the second half was to get vdn fired…….yea thats it…it all makes sense now…its all part of a plan!!!!(oh my god ive gone completely bat-sh!t krazy)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Dec 22, 2009 12:58 AM CST up reply actions
its easy: the bulls are a team that will score 98 points on a bad defense and not 140.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
team loss.
Bad coach+bad players = bad losses.
Bad owner+ bad teams = a decade of bad.
by SoulEater7 on Dec 22, 2009 1:14 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Succinct and accurate.
It would be a good set of equations to post on the top of blog front page….
by hitlesswonder on Dec 22, 2009 1:18 AM CST up reply actions
well whoever put overmatched players in isos for 10 straight mins and whoever couldnt find a way to
get his players a breather probably blew the game.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
Players don't go 48 minutes a night, and of course the kicker is they are playing tomorrow in New York.
I’m sure you’ll call them pansies or other pointless cliches, but there should be some actual thought put into lineup rotations.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2009 1:30 AM CST up reply actions
Bulls made 2 shots in 4th quarter. Both by Hinrich, the last one with 10:15 left in the game. Then had TWO fg attempts in over 7 MIN. HOW???? Rose didn’t ATTEMPT a shot until under the 3 min mark…Deng didn’t attempt a shot over the last 101/2 minutes…I can’t imagine any degree of mismanagement that could cause all this.
i can only imagine this being caused by mismanagement. but the players do need to be
slapped by letting the kings get away with being in the penalty for the last 7 mins and getting so few FTs out of it. fyi, the coach should be slapped for this too.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
Of course, be sure to apply this logic every time the Blazers blow a double-digit lead.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2009 1:29 AM CST up reply actions
The difference between VDN and an NBA coach.
“I mean, what can you say? It’s unheard of to do what just happened,” Kings coach Paul Westphal said. “I’m not even sure I believe it, but it sure was fun.”
Now you could just credit the Kings players for not giving up as to the reason they won but it was Paul Westphal who put in the best players to win that game and they did.
Being down by 35 who would be in the game for the Bulls? Hunter, Pargo, JJ, Taj and Gray!
VDN would have given up!
The very same trait the Bulls have shown in their blow out losses. THEY GIVE UP!
The Bulls are not good enough to coast! Thats what gets you in the lottery.
They haven’t earned the right to have a 35 point lead.
Dude....Hunter, Gray, and Pargo are on the Bulls bench
As well James Johnson who may be the worst player on Bulls judging by the amount of burn he gets.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 22, 2009 1:14 AM CST up reply actions
That's Rose's and Hinrich's fault
Sergio Rodriguez was getting into the paint whenever he wanted.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2009 8:50 AM CST up reply actions
He's better than half the Bulls bench, I'd trade Salmons and Hinrich for Udoka.
I’m envious of the freaking Sacramento Kings, their roster looks stacked compared to ours.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2009 1:37 AM CST up reply actions
Kings have better ownership/managment than the Bulls does.
The Bulls would have a fine roster if ownership and management weren’t as interested in fiefdom and/or money.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
I've always been a Petrie fan.
He got torched two years in a row for taking Thompson and Evans, but that’s two NBA starters, and one superstar in the making.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
sometimes guys make shots. earl boykins had a 14 point quarter this year...won the game. it happens.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
bulls could have used Earl Boykins last night
interested thing is they could have gotton Earl Boykins this summer or other scorers not signed?
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
Udoka made three 3s from the exact same spot on the floor and this is how...
Sacramento ran the same play almost exclusively in the 4th:
1. Evans operates from the left elbow, guarded primarily by Kirk.
2. Udoka was planted in the right baseline
3. The Bulls’ help defense philosophy is to stay on your man farely tight, then rotate over if/when someone gets beat off the dribble or pick ’n roll.
Everyone who watched knows that Evans beat Kirk to the basket just about every time. The chain reaction is…..guys come over the help late, i.e. when Evans is basically at the basket. Helping at the basket forced Fish to rotate off of Udoka in the corner and onto the big man closest to the basket. Boom….that leaves Udoka open for the 3.
sometimes guys make shots. earl boykins had a 14 point quarter this year…won the game. it happens.
That happens when you do the same thing over and over again. Here’s what they should have done.
1. Either put Fish on Evans or have Kirk sag off of him to encourage jump shots. At the very least, the “coach” should have had Kirk shade him to the baseline where they could have the help come from that side. I still don’t think Tyreke is that good a passer yet (his great overall game last night notwhistanding), but it would have been harder for him to pass cross court.
2. The Kings committed their 4th team foul with 8 minutes left in the 4th. Let me repeat that…..the Kings were in the penalty with 8 MINUTES LEFT IN THE GAME. Since Tyreke had to shoulder so much of the offense for the them, if nothing else, you need to have the guy he’s guarding attack him on the other end or make him chase people around screens.
"Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen." - Michael Jordan
it also illuminates the Bulls offense
since one couldn’t break down a play of theirs like that.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2009 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
Oxymoron :(
Bulls offense
We miss you, Ben Gordon!
by Granny Waiters on Dec 22, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
You will never convince me that the coaches blew this game
GD Red Auerbach couldn’t coach these gutless pussycats.
the way i see it
the bulls have no strategy for playing with a lead. they consistently could not put the ball in their best player’s hands for handfuls of possessions at a time. with a large lead, they were taking shots with 15+ seconds left on the shot clock. players like salmons and deng want to get their shots off and they want to get their stats. the bulls wouldn’t know how to play grind out the clock basketball if they tried, and that’s an indictment on the coaching.
“Players win games” – VDN
“Coach your f*cking team VDN” – leeac
Whenever you keep the ball away from your best player as many times as the bulls do.
You’re fucked.Its on the coaching.If its every once in a while then its the players but when its all the time its on the coaching period.
NOT in the first half
with 8 minutes left in the 3rd quarter. It was a historical meltdown.
chicago is depressing
all our teams such except the hawks. horrible overall sports year thus far.
this is the worst overall year I have ever seen!
I have contemplated suicide however I don’t want people on here to celebrate my absence so I truck on like a complete dolt.
by SoulEater7 on Dec 22, 2009 1:30 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
haha
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
truck on
just don’t go on truck .
-Chris Henry
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
bah humbug.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2009 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
too soon?
yes lets keep mourning for a moron! When is the right time? He didn’t value his own life why should we?
He was busted for weed.
Having sex with a minor
multiple gun charges including concealment and aggravated assault with a firearm.
driving without a valid driver’s license or valid insurance.
drunk driving
violating his probation
Henry punched a man named Gregory Meyer, 18, and threw a beer bottle through the window of his car.
Henry allowed three underage females (ages 18, 16 and 15) to consume alcohol
engaged in a domestic disputes
Give me a fucking break! Soldiers die in this country fighting for our lives get less respect and recognition!
by SoulEater7 on Dec 22, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This organization is in shambles..
it has been gutted like a fish and frozen over for purchase at your local Costco while some late night zombie tries to take it back to the freezer section not realizing the expiration date was 1998 never leaving the store… put it in the go backs cart
Bulls could be going for draft picks...
Maybe that’s why certain components are still around…
Makes 2010 more exciting I guess. Which 2nd tier star will come to Chicago?
Well
The players must have relaxed so much that they thought it was over in the 3rd quarter. But then shouldn’t the coach get in his players ear and tell them not to relax?Oh boy
umm but the players don't listen
because they make so much damn money they could fly to the bahamas tonight and be back in time for 11 am practice.
no I would just look at the cheerleaders asses like everyone else.
by SoulEater7 on Dec 22, 2009 1:35 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This team needs a kick in the ass.
And need the “italian donkey” to get out.And get a real coach.And management need to get off their ass and do something.Oh man it wont happen though.
Definitely not happening.
By midseason we’ll hear stories about players not getting along, Salmons will start whining about not getting enough shots. When Tyrus Thomas is traded for a 2nd round draft pick, all the journalists will write columns on how he was such a locker room cancer. Then we’ll get a story about Joakim Noah fighting with the coaching staff, leading to a suspension and stern reprimand from Gar Forman. Jerry Reinsdorf will stop masturbating to Jake Peavy’s career WHIP and make a public denouncement of the team, saying they are terrible and he understands the fans’ pain, then calls Kenny Williams and tells him to sign Scott Podsednik to a 6 year extension.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2009 1:54 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I was angry for 10 minutes, now it's kind of just a big joke.
If Reinsdorf came out and said he forced the Bulls to lose because he loves Nocioni so much, I wouldn’t be surprised.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2009 1:33 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I don't know how to feel about this picture!
See what happens when you play the Bulls, you feel relevant! The Kings have figured out the secret to winning in the NBA get down by 35 and lull the opponent into thinking they’re actually good.
They should implement that strategy immediately
it would be fun to watch if they tried it for one more game…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
my first thought looking at that picture is
when i divorce myself from the Bulls once and for all in the summer of 2010, the Kings are an appealing team to start rooting for.
I hate
With about 4 minutes left in the 4th quarter, they showed the quarter-by-quarter scoring, and the Kings had outscored the Bulls 30-8. I started laughing, because it was so sad and stupid.
I hate this team. They are all dead to me. Except Noah.
Every once in ahwile I'm reminded why I read this place
You rarely disappoint Matt.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Having done my piece of ass kissing
I’m not shocked the Bulls collapsed by any stretch for all the reason’s Matt already mentioned. What I AM completely and totally shocked by was the Kings ability to take advantage of these opportunities. I still don’t believe the Kings actually gave themselves a chance to win regardless of the opponent.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Glad your team is shocking you in a good way.
Got any other relevations for us on this lovely day?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
None that would likely interest you.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh, hes in the laegue two and Jayson Thomson and that Boggins dude on Milwokee, and Occur for the Jizz. Its a talented laegue.--Kfan in Korea
Both these teams are pretty bad.
Evans and Rose are phenomenal though.
by Super-Structure on Dec 22, 2009 2:26 AM CST reply actions
I reafirmmed that i like rose over evans
not to knock evans, but man…if only rose had a real coach….when he dunked the ball, it wasnt a fast break, it wasnt out of spite or anger, it wasnt to make a point (not really) it was because he wanted it to be…because it could be, because, dare i say, it was easy….Rose dunked that ball so nonchalantly, you see the replay, you see him come down and start jogging back, nothing on his face or body language (and after awhile of watching you learn to read him abit) said “i tried on that”, no…it was easy for him. To rise above everyone else, he simply can do it, he could do it more often, all he needs is a chance, just the chance to be given flight, a good pass, someone to just take the attention of the defense and then give rose a small opening….
Damn, he was brililant in that first 30 minutes of play…absolutely Brilliant! WHat would evans do if he were on this team…hell…what would cp3 do if he were on this team…? I feel sorry for rose….if he had been anywhere else, he wouldve been a 90 in 2k10….instead hes a measley 83………..
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
here here
I really believe that most of the people on this site don’t know how much of a player Rose is, The blackhawks named Toews captain and backed it up by letting him know this is your team, but we name Heinrich and Deng Captains and give them the big money and they went south with the game on the line, and all you hear is why didn’t Rose save us from this no coaching embarasssment, I think when he was missin that last shot he was thinking “no my yob man”.
No the Bulls are bad
The Kings would qualify as decent.
Fan of the Chicago Cash Cows formerly known as the Bulls
I do believe that this is more demoralizing than the other losses.
This one hit with the force of all the others—first destroyed by good teams on the road, then a terrible effort against a terrible team and then an absolute collapse after a surprising win. That said, Rose’s singularity still makes it worth watching.
by Super-Structure on Dec 22, 2009 3:11 AM CST reply actions
this loss wasnt demoralizing for me, but id have to imagine the players are going to be pretty upset about it.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
They'll just think about Vinny after the game comments...
“insult to injury..cya speech”
And start another 8 game losing streak!
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
They're not terrible,
but I do love what’s happening with Derrick. Just please, please, please, find a coach and a bench
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
I'm glad I didn't watch this
This was awfull. Vinny is guilty as well, but most of the blame should be on the players. They relaxed too early
Jannero Pargo = Larry Hughes 2.0
Says it all ..yfbb is at his best again!
“They don’t have a plan to handle the coaching, just like the coach doesn’t have a plan to keep a lead. Gar Paxdorf’s “process” is just as screwed as Vinny Del Negro’s “attack”, and we’ll be watching the results for the foreseeable future, "
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
Remember This Lineup
If you look at the pattern of VDN for the entire year this is his favorite lineup:Deng, Miller, Salmons, Heinrich, Gibson he rode that horse to death last night and he paid for it.
It seems he placates veterans
Almost like he is afraid to offend them, but he has a comfort level when it comes to young players, but if your Veterans are garbage or selfish you have a disaster. Hence the 2009 Chicago Bulls.
Meh
It was -6 on the night. Rose, Hinrich, Salmons, Deng, and Noah were -12 to close the game.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2009 9:44 AM CST up reply actions
yeah, THAT'S his favorite lineup
and I can’t complain given how Miller has played (especially last night).
The key will be when Tyrus returns, will he still be on the bench in the 4th while the Bulls go small? Of course he will.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2009 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, that lineup above isn't horrible.
In my opinion, it should probably be the starting lineup the past couple of weeks. However… when Thomas comes back, it shouldn’t be, but it might be. Del Negro is just a step behind the right decision.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
to me
if the Bulls are trying to emphasize defense and rebounding, that is the wrong line up. And since that line up doesn’t come with a scoring boost, I hope to see it very infrequently when Tyrus gets back.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 22, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
Just got into the office
I turned the game off when we were up by 20 in the 3rd thinking it was Aaron Gray time. I open up to BAB and..just wow. The only way to protect my sanity now is to laugh it off and score this under another stain on Vinny’s resume. I honestly didn’t think we were this bad but I think this puts us the bottom tier of teams that an elite player would want to play for.
Is anybody home
Does anybody work at Bulls headquaters, I mean like call gm’s about trades check nbdl for talent, talk to scouts.
Did Luol Deng play in the 4th quarter?
And why can’t he get ripped when he should get ripped?
One 4th quarter basket would be nice. Maybe even a couple of free throws. Two attempts were nice, but that one miss sure does hurt. But how the hell do you play all 12 minutes and register one point after posting 26 in the first three quarters. Well at least he hit the boards for one rebound. He did foul somebody too. So some guy in #9 was out there, but I don’t know if it was Luol Deng.
Westphal did out coach VDN, but so what. Players play the game. They have to produce something. We just hit the snooze button on offense to make a poor defensive team just focus on rebounding to beat us.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
He and Rose both collapsed.
Luol had 21 at the half, Rose had 19. Both wilted shortly thereafter. Players with the contracts and expectations of those two players should never disappear like that.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
Deng was doing whatever he wanted in the 1st half.
Some of that was Noc’s fault, but still, to just disappear in the 2nd half like that is inexcusable. It’s why I never get too excited when Lu strings together 3 or 4 good games. I’d trade the bastard at the drop of a hat.
I turned the game on mute and fired up the xbox half way through the third quarter
With about three minutes left I looked over and noticed the score. How the hell did that happen? After that rainbow Evans was jawing about how this was his house. How could they not answer that? How could they just bend over and take that? Especially on their home court.
Bulls need some Fing pride. Too bad the few players that have any were forced out the door (BG) or are in the process of being forced out the door (Tyrus).
And it is freaking criminal that JJ didn’t get any burn with a 35 point lead. Either VDN needs to be fired for not playing him. Or Gar/Pax need to be fired for drafting someone so terrible that the coach doesn’t feel comfortable giving him burn with a 35 point lead.
Just noticed the picture caption
Funny, the last guy with ‘marbles’ was run out of town. It’s OK, the owner says he decided it a year ago and he would’ve been a 4th guard anyway. Not entirely connected…but it kind of is. (AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast)
too true
Booing.
(again: this is the guy 9Noc) Bulls fans give a standing ovation to while Ben Gordon got booed whenever he touched the ball)
I don’t know why this is so hard for you to understand…Nocioni had signed long term with the Bulls, made the commitment to the team, then he was traded to Sactown…ie. He didn’t want to leave, but had no choice. On the other hand, Ben Gordon turned down two offers from the Bulls, then left town to sign with a division rival for slightly more money…ie. he wanted to leave at the first chance he got.
You boo the guy who turns his back on the team.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
I still can't believe how you don't get that Gordon didn't actually want to leave.
Remember the whole “I made a mistake, I want to sign long term and stay.” “But we don’t want you now.”
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
He was forced to sit behind CHris Duhon and Kirk Hinrich for most of his time here.
His GM didn’t even contact him in the off-season and the team’s owner said he wasn’t wanted back because he wouldn’t get playing time because of Jannero Pargo. All this after Gar Forman said the offseason’s number one priority is to resign Ben Gordon. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg with Ben. He’s a real pro, too bad the guys running this franchise aren’t.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
I boo the guy who made public comments about his own team's lack of hustle
When he’s nothing but an overrated chucker. Hell, if Nocioni played more minutes the Bulls likely would have won considering how easily Deng destroyed him.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2009 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
This is truly pathetic
What more is it going to take for GarPax to do something about this? The coach is awful and he has Pargo, Gray and Hunter on the bench. Why on earth was Hinrich on Evans time after time as big and strong as that kid is? The bench issue is really a problem. There are D-Leaguers and free agents dying for a chance that would come in and play harder than the bench guys we have.
Fan of the Chicago Cash Cows formerly known as the Bulls
It's probably going to take less ticket sales
for Reinsdorf to do something, but being that we live in a city where ten years and one playoff series victory still fills the stadium, I don’t see fans canceling their season tickets any time soon.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
yeah, I forget when the deadline is to renew
but it may be before free agency.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
if the ticket sales go down
it’ll give the incentive to spend less.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
Evans was dominating
Deng was in the game too. He was guarding Brockman. Is Brockman going to post up? Put Salmons on him. Put Deng on Evans. Put Hinrich on Udoka.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
They did try all those things
Salmons had to foul him
’Reke shot over Deng
Udoka owned Hinrich
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Dec 22, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Coaching Plan
But it wasn’t THAT shocking or demoralizing. Is this loss truly any worse than the string of blowouts on the west coast, or the home loss to the Nets? It will get more attention, but if Vinny wasn’t fired then he won’t be now. They don’t have a plan to handle the coaching, just like the coach doesn’t have a plan to keep a lead.
Reinsdorf is a greedy bastard but he’s not dumb enough to have his team booed off the floor with Vinny for an entire season. I’ve got to think Vinny is cut loose in the next month or so, and good ole’ Pete Myers gets the interim job, and maybe an extra $200K for the rest of the year. Our boy Pete will get JJ on the floor, that’s for sure. Thank you, Mister Reinsdorf, THANK YOU!!!
dunno, you see Pete Myers coach?
he rode the vets even more, and would probably see this as a chance for a real gig somewhere else so he’d try and bleed out as many hollow victories as possible.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 22, 2009 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
He's a Company Man
Good points on Pete continuing the well established anti-development path, but I think he’ll do whatever Reinsdorf says. He knows the only reason why he’s still in the league is because he’s a Jerry Guy. More importantly, he’ll be cheap.
Paint Vinny as the scapegoat, shake things up without hitting the magical luxury tax threshold, have a face that most of Chicago still likes out in front of the organization (Vinny has to be more hated than any other coach in town—even Lovie—right?), show some improvement as the schedule gets easier, sell buckets of hope for what awaits in 2010 (Wade! LeBron! Bosh! Pat Riley!! Phil Jackson!! Red Auerbach!!!!). Reinsdorf can’t lose.
Has he really coached that much?
the only game I remember him coaching was against San Antonio. The Bulls kept it close and lost on the last one or two possessions.
It wasn’t a large enough sample to say anything good about him, but I don’t think it made him look bad either.
salmons was terrible
in the first half he was ok.. but his defense and crappy shooting seemed to just spread to everyone in the 2nd half.
WHY doesn’t James Johnson play? only playing 7 guys when trying to “rest” players and not even giving him minutes is unbelievable. just freckin retarded.
and im sure this had been said many times, cause i haven’t read every post yet, but kirk on evens over and over again proves that vinny is a ritard. maybe send a double team or something… did we not learn anything with pierce in the playoffs last year??
and how many of us were waiting for derrick to just say “fuck this shit” in the fourth and do what evens did??
I'm cuckoo for Kukoc!!!
Honestly now guys...
Where does this loss rank among your all-time Bulls blunders?
"That play was ‘Give the ball to Michael and everyone else get the @##@#% out of the way."
--Chicago Bulls head coach Doug Collins, on "The Shot"
I think it depends what happens after. This will alway be remembered and probably be vdn's signature loss.
They really showed two different sides. If a team actually tries they can come back from 35 down on the Bulls and win. This could be demoralizing for such a cream puff minded team.
It's top 5 of all time
for me. But I’ll give the club a break since I only know events from 1987 to present.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2009 11:48 AM CST up reply actions
Vinny is safe
Firing Vinny means the Bulls eat up his contract for next year. That costs money.
Hiring another coach means the Bulls will pay him. That costs money.
The Bulls then could find some desperate no experience coach to coach this Bulls team. They already have that in Vinny, so it would be a waste of money to just repeat the same lose-don’t-care since we are making lot’s of money strategy.
I think Vinny stays the rest of the year,
and gets lets go after the season, he has shown he can’t coach at this level, maybe Nancy Liberman might be a better option than Vinny
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 22, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
C'mon Rose take charge
I think he really wants to, but senses backlash from vets on team, this is why they should have named him captain.
No, it just makes me
wanna run up in the berto center grab Vinny’s whistle and show how you coach a team, the Bulls would not even been allowed to leave the court after the game, we would’ve ran and ran and ran, even the coaches would’ve ran.
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 22, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
The Problem last night
DRose is 1 for 5 in the second half!!! That can not happen, so many times last night he was ignored until the final minute. There was a play in the 4th Salmons grabs a rebound and Rose is ahead of him on left wing. Instead of getting it to Rose, Salmons takes it to the hoop only to have it deflected of his knees.
I feel the vets on the time want to be the “guys” but they must realize that Rose is the future this is his team. Until that happens we’re in big trouble.
the vets should realize that
Rose is not just the future, he’s also the present star of this team. other players seems fine with rose but salmons seems to want to be the star w/c obviously he isnt
the lack of passing on the break is very problematic
Salmons and Deng regularly give up points on the break. That play by Salmons was pathetic. You could hear the crowd groan. It was a really selfish play, the kind of thing Gordon got accused of a lot – except he typically would make the play.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 22, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
VDN
I woke up this morning expecting news of VDN being fired. oh well again just like what I said last year, id rather have the nba 2k10 coach chicago than the real VDN
This was like the 69 Cubs season,
compressed into one game.
We miss you, Ben Gordon!
by Granny Waiters on Dec 22, 2009 12:29 PM CST reply actions
I know one thing,
I’M TIRED OF BEING KICKED IN THE NUTS BY CHICAGO SPORTS FRANCHISES, they get you all excited but in the end the boom gets lowered on your nuts
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 22, 2009 12:51 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Do you like Hockey?
The Hawks are good.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2009 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
This is why I hope they lose every game.
Wins against the Hawks, Golden State, only give GarPaxDorf reason to keep Del Negro around, reason to make excuses, reasons NOT to make changes. If they lose those two games (and against the Cavs and Spurs earlier), then maybe there’s a different feel around the team.
It reminds of me last year when the Bears beat the Colts and Eagles. They weren’t that good. They got lucky. The fans, and the management, were fooled into thinking the teams were good enough. They didn’t make changes. They should have. The Bulls should, too. They won’t.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
The Bears didn't make changes...
I like to introduce you to Jay Cutler, being played by Rex Grossman.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 22, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The Bears and Bulls are running the same formula.
“Well hey there’s this really talented young star we got, let’s just assume he will dominate every game and not worry about helping him mature and reach his full potential by surrounding him with the best talent and coaches. Our fans are so dumb they will bicker amongst each other who’s to blame while still buying tickets. That way we can be cheap and not fire our incompetent GM/head coach.”
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 22, 2009 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
Reinsdorf's toys
The Sox and Bulls, only the sox are the bicycle and the bulls are the roller skates, he could care less this is only buisness to him.
Okay, didn't make enough changes.
big miss on my fault
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Jerry Angelo needs to be ran out of
town, his drafts have been absolute jokes
by QUINTEN DALEY on Dec 22, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
Did anyone hear what Bernstein said on the score right now?
Paul Westphal said they would win this game at half time and the Bulls would hang their heads.
He could have pulled out the motivation
“Hire me!”
“I’m cheap!”
“INTERVIEW INTERVIEW INTERVIEW!”
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 22, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
I could do nothing but laugh as our team was raped over the last 18 minutes of that game last night
I’ve never laughed at a rape scene before (besides the spoofs they did in that Spielburg/Lucas episode of South Park), but I couldn’t stop myself. I had to go take a shower afterwards.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 22, 2009 1:47 PM CST reply actions
DISASTER
Why do we need a coach, who has a 35 pt. 2nd half lead and yet only goes 2 deep in the bench?
Why do we need a coach who in the 4th quarter simply has to have his team hold on to the ball on every possesion until the shot clock runs out and only then heave one at the basket to assure victory and can’t even do thaat!
Why do we need a coach who can’t seem to make sure that an otherwise impotent offense doesn’t run through the best player on the team?
Remember the good old days (not that old) after 3 consecutive seasons avg. 46 wins, the Bulls unceromoniously let Scott Skiles go following a 9-16 start because (boo-hoo) he was to tough on the players. Here we are today at 10-16. Now that’s better isn’t it? Good, then drink some more Jerry Reisndorf Kool-Aid; lay your head down and you won’t feel a thing z-z-z-z-z-z-zzzz
Great summary
They don’t have an organization plan, period
by bullsfaninbigapple on Dec 22, 2009 8:03 PM CST reply actions
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