Rose and Vinny on Rose's role
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 14, 2009 7:26 PM CST
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PrintMore McGraw (as if there could be such a thing!) after Monday's practice, displaying the two most important influences on Rose's game.
Rose himself:
People are saying they want me to shoot more, but I’m the point guard, I can’t do that. I’ve got to pass the ball to people and get them open. So taking over as a point guard is getting people open and shooting it here and there. If I was the two guard, it would be something else. That’s just not my game right now.
And his first NBA coach:
Asked the same question, coach Vinny Del Negro’s first response was, "What do you think?" in sort of an "isn't it obvious we want him to take over" manner.
Del Negro went on to talk about how it’s a learning process for a young point guard; he wants him to be aggressive, but also set up teammates, etc. He added a line that was interesting.
"There are other areas Derrick will continue to improve in that are probably more important than that," Del Negro said.
Doug over at ChicagoNow says that Rose is shooting plenty of shots, just not doing what it takes (namely drawing contact) to maximize his efficiency. I suppose, but even when there are stretches where Rose is shooting plenty (of floaters), there are too many others where he's happy to just drift through the game.
(and if Rose is to eventually be the all-NBA superstar type, shouldn't there be one 40-point, 28 shot outburst in his early career?)
Is that something that can be coached out of him? I can't say for sure, it probably can be learned, but also a certain personality is required to recognize and embrace that the best way for your team to succeed ( especially if your team is full of overmatched teammates) is to be unabashedly selfish.
The Bulls have to continue to develop Rose and best foster this particular improvement, and as VDN says, improving many other facets as well. We expected a leap in production: getting to the line more, increased range on the jumper, passable defense...has any of this happened? The ankle injury slowed him for the start of the season, but we're 20 games in , and the explosion is there to see in enough of his spectacular plays to make me write that off as an ongoing excuse.
If the Org.'s mantra since winning the lottery was that Rose is #1 priority, then it follows that there are grounds for VDN to be fired if only to try and give Rose some better developmental coaching. Because right now I can't argue that he looks much different than when he entered the league.
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He defers to vets.
Derrick Rose needs to understand nothing else matters but him. None of these players matter now. He’s just too shy. Thats why I think you’ll only see Rose develop with better talent around because he doesn’t wanna be the number one option. He wants to set people up and then pick his spots.
But yeah I guess thats the message you send your players when the captains are… well I won’t go there.
This whole build around Rose thing is a load of crap. Just like this organization.
We are the worlds dumbest city!- Dan Bernstein
uhhhhh ohhhhhhhhh
yup, nailed it on the captains
Maybe it doesn’t and shouldn’t matter, but why not do all they can to tell Rose to lead? Instead they go the other way, letting the vets elect themselves to leadership roles and touting the other guards on the team as being necessary mentors to Rose.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 14, 2009 7:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah. I'm guessing that no one has told Derrick he should shoot more. At least not clearly
I absolutely don’t trust VDN to 1) actually realize Rose should be more of the focus of the offense and 2) to explain to Rose and the rest of the team how that should happen.
For their high character, I think maybe Deng and Salmons need a veteran coach to lay out exactly how things are going go down and sit them if they don’t buy in.
Right now, the Bulls coach, offense, and players treat Rose more or less as if he’s just another player. If they want him to be more I think that needs to change.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 14, 2009 10:50 PM CST up reply actions
You got it backwards
or so it has appeared when i watch the games….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Dec 14, 2009 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
REBOUNDING.
Essentially every time Rose gets a board, its a fastbreak. He could help us so much there. But he doesn’t put in the (any) effort on the glass.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
I completely agree with this
…and now I’m even more depressed than I was before. Sigh.
This line from a movie, television show or other piece of popular culture pretty much sums up my entire personality.
For some reason, of all the concerns I have for our team, Rose isn’t really one of them.
He’s one of our most productive players already, and he’s only played 100 games, all of which he’s been the point guard in.
We still see the potential, his defense doesn’t look as clueless as last year, even if he’s still not yet a great defender, but I’m still not worried.
His jumper is improved, he can knock that floater down at a high %.
Don’t get me wrong, there are concerns and plenty of room for improvement, but he’s still a very talented, very young player who is only 2 years removed from high school on a crappy team with a very poor coach. Better prospects have fared much worse in much friendlier situations.
How do you think Beasley would’ve done in a Bulls uniform? How would Westbrook look without Durant and company? Sure, the other good player in that draft, Lopez, looks pretty solid this year, but would you rather see Rose scoring a few more pts a game and have our team at 3 wins? I’d feel more comfortable if our TEAM was winning some more games as Rose progressed.
That’s what it really boils down to, it’s a team game, no matter who tells you anything different. Kobe didn’t win anything alone, Lebron hasn’t won anything alone, even MJ didn’t win anything alone. You want your players to be aggressive, you want guys to take over, but the most important thing is that your players can play as a team. Rose’s two biggest negatives at this point are his defense and his lack of consistently attacking the rim hard. The former is something that young, physically talented guys have a history of improving on in their first few years (look at Lebron’s defense in his first few years, look at Durant’s). The latter is something that a good coach, combined with solid outside shooting teammates can really help Rose with. It’s easier to drive to the hole when it’s not clogged with 2-3 defenders, and it’s easier to realize your weaknesses when your coach is constantly forcing you to improve, both during and after the game. I don’t think Vinny’s “Hustle, take open shots” timeout routine is really doing it for Rose or the team.
What percentage does Rose knock down that floater at?
How’s that compare to other players?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Yeah, from what i've seen he's probably
is one of the worst guards in the league at floaters, and he takes waaaaaaay to many.
by BigBabyCollin on Dec 15, 2009 5:48 AM CST up reply actions
He also is the only player I know
who takes the occasional 1-handed, running floater from 15 feet. I think it’s hilarious.
apparently george gervin used to do finger rolls from the free throw line in the middle of games.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
Furthermore, his floaters usually rim around before going in,
at least from what I’ve seen of Derrick. His floater is all right, but his touch isn’t all that good. What bothers me about Derrick is how he often slows up for the floater when he could very easily go dunk the ball. No PG can do what he does in the air, but he rarely takes advantage of it. He has several dunk opportunities per game but rarely cashes in and he’d be better served taking it in as strong as his fellow draftee Russell Westbrook.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
WHEN IS CHRISTMAS EVE GOING TO BE HERE?
this is worse than waiting for Santa-many years ago.
Next Thursday?
I doubt you’ll get what you want though. I know I won’t and thats for JR to choke on a cigar.
We are the worlds dumbest city!- Dan Bernstein
uhhhhh ohhhhhhhhh
The Rose statement
is a little disconcerting to me. He should know he is going to need to score bunches of points or at least be more aggressive. If this is what he’s truely thinking then I’m scared…but, I have a feeling his submissiveness to his might have something to do with this. Look at the team USA summer camp and how supposedly aggressive he was there. He’s just got to get over Salmons and Deng and what they might be thinking his role is.
He’s gotta realize he has to be the leader and do whatever the team needs. If we need him to take be the scorer, then he needs to do it. He is too deferential. Even CP3 and D Will average 20+ points a game. He floats a little too much for my taste and needs to be aggressive and even a little selfish at times. His teammates besides Noah and Deng are pretty much hot garbage…he needs to realize this and not worry about stepping on toes that belong to players that don’t even matter.
"(and if Rose is to eventually be the all-NBA superstar type, shouldn't there be one 40-point, 28 shot outburst in his early career?)"
Guess how many times Kobe Bryant scored 40 in his first 3 NBA seasons?
If you guessed 0, you are correct. According to http://www.basketball-reference.com, Kobe Bryant didn’t put up a 40-pt game until his 4th NBA season, and even that year, he only put together a single 40-pt game, in which he got exactly 40 points.
by Poloplaya14 on Dec 14, 2009 9:14 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
and correct me if I'm wrong but didnt he drop a 36 point 11 assist game...
in his first playoff game ever? I don’t know but 4 points is close enough for me.
by bustingmybulls on Dec 14, 2009 9:32 PM CST up reply actions
True, but
kobe came out of high school (i know only 1 year difference)
But I also think more importantly he wasn’t ask to do this, he was told not to do this. They had Shaq. But as all know, Kobe himself wanted to do this, and he eventually got his chance. I don’t think Rose will have that fire on a regular basis. Deng was soft 4 years ago and he’s soft now. Mechanics and ball IQ can change, i’m not so sure about innate personality. I mean Jordan was Jordan at 15, being pissed off about not making the varsity team
by The90sBullsRevival on Dec 14, 2009 9:33 PM CST up reply actions
was Kobe on a team where he was the only player who should even take shots?
forget as a general learning curve: on this particular team, Rose has reason to think the best chance the offense has of scoring is for him to do it alone, because he’s literally the only one who could create a shot. With Hinrich out, he was playing alongside lineups of Lindsey Hunter, and Hunter’s the one controlling the ball.
I’m curious if he can recognize that and/or if he wants to do something about it.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 15, 2009 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
I'm sure he wants to do something about it.
But simply trying to shoot more isn’t the answer. I don’t want to see Rose turn into a more athletic version of Jannero Pargo.
I'd hope he would shoot at a better percentage than Pargo.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 15, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
He put on a nice display on Saturday, there was plenty of aggresiveness
But I’m not confident Rose can be an elite finisher at the rim. He just either refuses to absorb contact, or is so amazing at avoiding bodies the refs will never give him the superstar calls.
As for passing, he never had elite playmaking ability, but a real coach would bring out the best in his desire to get teammates involved. Defensively, there is definitely more effort. But, Rose is going to look foolish when his own teammates can’t even call out screens for him. Even Noah is oblivious to help Derrick out.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
Rose at the rim
I’m just watching on TV, and this may just come off as ref-bashing, but I don’t see how Rose doesn’t get more foul calls in there. I don’t see how there can’t be contact. It’s hard to see at game speed on the box, but it really would be amazing if he’s avoiding getting fouled. I actually think he can be elite (or at least better) finishing. He’s shown that he will take in all the way to rack, so it’s not like he’s terrified to do so. I think he needs a veteran coach. Or at least a good coach
by hitlesswonder on Dec 14, 2009 10:43 PM CST up reply actions
While he doesn't get a lot of calls,
it also seems to me that he always goes for an acrobatic finish, and since he’s so athletic, he actually DOES avoid the contact. Unfortunately this often results in a miss. He needs someone to coach him and tell him that, you know, inviting contact is a GOOD thing and is one of the offensive skills that superstars are able to develop. Rose is strong enough that he shouldn’t worry about getting hit. It’s amazing how little he gets the line, and a guy like Devin Harris gets there 5x as much. There’s really no excuse.
i agree with this. most of the time it looks as though rose looks to get the cleanest shot
opportunity possible, and while that is laudable and, at a certain remove, even logical, it is still true that the best way to get points is to get defenders off balance and go through them. rodney stucky is a totally crap player now but even he seems to have figured this out.
"Oooohhh, cat in the wall, eh? Now you're talkin' my language."
He hasn't learned how to sell calls yet
Wade and Devin Harris are the two best marketing professionals that wear uniforms. Rose will eventually learn to take falls the way the WWE teaches their talent to take them.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 15, 2009 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
Derrick is the type of guy that needs a real mentor, and by real I mean
a non-Lindsey Hunter mentor. As much as I hated him after last year’s playoffs, Kevin Garnett is exactly what a kid like Derrick needs*. Garnett seems to be able to infuse a nastiness and tenacity into the most latent, laid back players. Pierce has always been really good, but he seemed to get nasty when KG hit Boston. Perkins, House, Davis and Rondo also developed an edge after KG arrived. Even Ray Allen was strutting a little more. KG made all the difference for Boston, and I wish we had a hard-ass like that on this team. Yeah, he’s a foul-mouthed trash talking punk, but I kinda like him, no matter how much he pissed me off last post-season. I kinda like that type of crassness when it comes to sports, and Lord knows this team needs that type of jolt.
*Noah seems to have that type of mentality, but he isn’t at the point in his career yet where he can impact teammates like Garnett can.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
All this hand-wringing over Rose is a little overboard (imo)
Go check Rose’s stats against Westbrook and Jennings – despite missing all of training camp and playing injured the first 12-15 games of the season, he is right there with all the other top rookie and 2nd year point guards. We knew he was raw coming in – I don’t understand the lack of patience.
He does needs to be coached up. But I don’t think he needs Hunter or KG to mentor him or a personality transplant – he needs someone to go through the ins and outs of how to play the position. Its not a deficit of hunger or lack of caring, he needs technical advice. The correct way to run the pick and roll, how to change pace to draw contact, footwork on defense – there is a definite learning curve at work here. We will see how quick he gets it, but I really don’t doubt that Rose can be one of your 3 best players on a championship team eventually – its going to take time.
Everything he needs to improve are things that he is very much likely to approve in. Shooting jumpers, drawing contact, playing defense – most young point guards improve those aspects of their game. If Rose couldn’t get into the lane, I’d be worried. If he didn’t show flashes of skill, I’d be worried. But right now he is a barely 21 year old point guard that everyone expects to play like Deron Williams, which is bit unfair because the Bulls organization hasn’t put him in the greatest position to succeed. Rose is right, he is the point guard, and his job is to set people up. As I see it, there are only 2 credible offensive options on the Bulls right now – Deng and Rose. Who exactly have the Bulls put out there to make his job easier? Other than maybe Rose, the Bulls don’t even have a credible 2nd option, let alone first. And we all know the mess that is VDN.
Yes, I get frustrated with Rose’s play sometimes. But how good will Rose be in 3 years when he is Deng or Noah’s age? He is going to blow those guys out the water. Think how much Noah improved just from this point last season until now. Some people have this development ladder in this head that if Rose doesn’t follow, it somehow means he is behind. I’m confident he will get their.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 14, 2009 11:34 PM CST reply actions 6 recs
Leave Derrick Rose alone!
Leave him alone!
We are the worlds dumbest city!- Dan Bernstein
uhhhhh ohhhhhhhhh
by SoulEater7 on Dec 15, 2009 12:14 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Two things:
You don’t Rose can be one of the three best players on a championship team? He is supposed to be the superduperstar best player on a championship team. The level of James, Wade, Bryant, etc. (not that James isn’t on a level all his own). It is possibly this reduction in expectations that has led to the hand-wringing. I hope you worded that poorly.
Second, I agree that, in all honesty, his potential isn’t really lowered at this point. The ineptness of the franchise has held him back so far. However, I also feel the ineptness of the franchise held Tyrus Thomas back to a degree. They never had a big-man coach, despite having a number four and number 9 draft pick of a PF and C. Noah had to go outside of the organization to get better. How long before they hire a coach that can actually teach Rose the nuances of being a PG? So maybe some of the frustration directed towards Rose is also directed at the franchise and maybe isn’t all about Rose. OTOH, if you’re a loyal fan of the Bulls you realize that the Org. and Rose… if one is subpar, the other will be, too.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
but I really don’t doubt that Rose can be one of your 3 best players on a championship team eventually
I think he meant that he can be a main player for a contender.
As for everything you wrote, I agree 100%. I think we have to put a good amount of any frustration regarding player development directly on the organization. You could just say Vinny, but I think that would be a cop out because the dumbass front office is the reason we have Vinny in the first place, and because of that Vinny has become somewhat of a sympathetic figure (in my mind anyway).
I mean, what were they expecting? And he had to have at least met expectations to this point, right? That being said, Garpax are not going anywhere, so the next logical step in the development plan for Rose simply has to be getting a coach in here that has a brain in his head and can hopefully speed the process up a little.
Vinny Del OH NO!
by Juiceboxjerry on Dec 15, 2009 1:51 AM CST up reply actions
I know what he meant...
I just think a year ago, a lot of us were saying, “I don’t doubt he could be the BEST player on a championship team.”
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I think you didn't follow along.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Impatient ones; Rose vs 2x MVP Steve Nash
It takes time.
Steve Nash played 4 years of college ball. He was 2 x league MVP.
“In his rookie season, he only managed 10.5 minutes a game, but in his second season, his playing time increased significantly and he was even ranked 13th in the league for three-point field-goal percentage.”
I takes time dude. You’re collectively hyperventilating over a kid not playing a skill position like a 8 year veteran.
ok, I'll pack it in here for a few years if you do
(kidding, I won’t. but you go ahead)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 15, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
oh i followed along
referring to what you said:
You don’t Rose can be one of the three best players on a championship team? He is supposed to be the superduperstar best player on a championship team. The level of James, Wade, Bryant, etc. (not that James isn’t on a level all his own). It is possibly this reduction in expectations that has led to the hand-wringing. I hope you worded that poorly.
unless…whoosh?
no you didn't...
read the next sentence after what you quoted. I said his potential isn’t diminished.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I never thought Rose would be on Wade or James' level
Its ludicrous to put those expectations on any pick. So few players ever reach that level, I don’t think you can ever plan or expect that. And furthermore, it wasn’t even predicted for Rose. Everyone thought he would struggle. James was a phenom in high school – Rose wasn’t close to that. Wade wasn’t such a star, but he was a much more mature player entering the league. The truth is the Heat got lucky. Wade was much better, improved much more, than anyone could have ever guessed.
My expectation (hope) for Rose has always been that he be a all-star point guard. A guy you can write in as starter at point guard for the Bulls for the next 10 years. I don’t see any reason to veer from those expectations after 20 games with the injuries he has had. He is the closest thing the Bulls have to a sure fire starter on a championship caliber team.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 15, 2009 1:24 PM CST up reply actions
sadly, that isn't good enough
due to Bulls champ-building (or ‘final 4 building’) philosophy.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 15, 2009 2:05 PM CST up reply actions
I don't agree
the championship building model has turned into the 2010 dream. The Bulls are banking on getting a top free agent in 2010, not Rose turning into CP3. They may hope he turns into CP3, but they are still trying to get Bosh, James or Wade to be the man in Chicago.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 15, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
LeBron is his own tier
with Wade or especially Bosh, Rose has to be better than All-Star caliber for that to actually be enough. Maybe we’re at Utah Jazz level, or Denver Nuggets. And even that would be after many shrewd, smaller additions.
Not that I won’t accept Rose+Bosh as an excellent start. But they’d probably need yet another star player, and that would mean the tax, and if they never get to the conference finals they won’t spend the tax money to stay into the conference finals. Since Jerry has stated he won’t pay for potentially winning, just pay if you’ve already won.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 15, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
But you can't win without paying!
I feel like this org is just spinning me in circles!
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 15, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree.
I think Rose (becoming really good, if not great) + Deng + Bosh + Noah is a pretty damned good 4 starters. Yeah, you need at least four more “good” players, and they’re not currently on the team, but I can’t imagine they’re impossible to find.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I don't agree.
The Bulls still wouldn’t have signed Gordon even if there were only one or two good 2010 free agents. They didn’t want to pay the luxury tax for one year for a 50-win team, even if it meant they’d be better in the long run. The 2010 free agent class is simply an excuse to the fans for not spending the money.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
He's actually exceeded my expectations at this point
because I never expected him to be that good right away. Now he’s going through an adjustment period where he is the main guy teams are keying on and he doesn’t have as many options to help (not just BG being gone but Salmons and Hinrich playing so poorly plus Tyrus out). He’s good now and even though he raised the bar last year by coming on so quickly, it will take probably a few more years before he really starts to become one of those top level pg’s.
"It hurts, man. All losses hurt."-Joakim Noah
I don't get that viewpoint.
Sure, I didn’t expect him to immediately turn into a top point guard his rookie season, but I sure as hell expected him to be pretty damn good. He was the number on pick in the draft. You don’t use the first overall pick on a player that can’t come in and immediately be effective. If a kid can’t play yet in this league, he shouldn’t be taken number one overall. I expected Derrick to be pretty good as a rook, and I expected him to improve this season. I hope I’m not alone in that.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
What I'm saying is
I didn’t expect him to play as well as he did as a rookie. I expected him to struggle a lot more than he did. D-Will had a pretty rough rookie season and look how good he turned out. He was the 3rd pick and played 3 years at Illinois. Gary Payton struggled. I just expected that he would struggle like most rookie point guards.
"It hurts, man. All losses hurt."-Joakim Noah
Its not that all of us are hating on Rose.
Its just a bit ridiculous the way that the organization is handling Rose. Rose should be the focal point of the team. The ball should be in his hands most of the game and ESPECIALLY in crucial points in the game. This should be on the coach to push and stress these things. Obviously our incapable and clearly under qualified coach is failing at this. The responsibility therefore next should lie on the organization to scrap for a new coach instead of waiting on this “process”. Process is bullshit. Rose isnt going to progress anywhere with the ball never in his hands and never being the playmaker/scorer in crucial situations. Now obviously our organization sucks ass and wont push for a new coach because well we all know theyre cheap. As fans we cant do anything about that but you know who can? Rose can. Rose should be demanding for a new coach. Rose should be demanding for the ball. Rose should not be happy with how he has been handled in his time with Bulls so far (I mean outside of that game 1 in the boston series how many games did you feel rose was the focal point of our offense?).
As far as ive seen all theyve used him in is promotions as the face of the team. Rose shouldnt be the face we see on TV representing the team when hes not even the focal point of the team on the court.
Rose needs to be demanding and thats where the frustration with Rose comes in. Look at the way Durant was handled down in OKC. And none of this bullcrap about how they have crap players there so they have to give him the ball. Half of those players are probably better than our roster. Stars need to be pushed and if theyre not they need to be self driven to succeed otherwise we’re going to just end up with things like the sexiest athlete and not the most valuable player.
Players peak at 28, Rose is a "College Junior"
You will destroy this kid by “putting the ball in his hands” with the pressure of Chi’s market and fans. He’s the age of a college junior and you say he’s a star who needs to be pressured.
Bulls fans want championships. It’s a fairly impatient market right now. Durant has a dream job. OKC is just happy to have a franchise.
They've already done that.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
What do you think?
So Chicago wants more. great.
Since Rose is underperforming, which NBA PG isn’t he emulating. He’s got 1 year of college ball and in his 2nd NBA season at PG.
Possibly the gold standard is Chris Paul who played 2 college years and had a better 2nd NBA season than Rose right now.
so
" Stars need to be pushed and if theyre not they need to be self driven to succeed otherwise we’re going to just end up with things like the sexiest athlete and not the most valuable player."
Push Rose, since he’s obviously not performing. I say run him out of town – to Miami or some other hell hole.
That's ridiculous.
Rose isn’t a rookie anymore. The kid-gloves are off and he needs to be pushed, hard.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
pressure of the Chicago market
heh.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 15, 2009 9:58 AM CST up reply actions
SBNation.
“Welcome to Loud City – A Blog About the NBA Basketball Team, the Oklahoma City Thunder”
“Blog a Bull – We’ve Contracted V.D.N.”
I'm sure Rose reads this blog all the time
and when we think he’s not doing as well as he could be [which is all the time, since it’s almost impossible to achieve perfection on a basketball court], he’s devastated and then plays Golf during his off-days instead of basketball. Maybe his chip shot will help with his floater.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
listen, with my rampant success and influence on coverage and decision-making
of the Bulls, I’m glad watchdogs like Noe_Valley are around.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 15, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
zing?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 15, 2009 2:06 PM CST up reply actions
and players arent every going to peak if theyve never had any experience
you think rose is going to magically know what to do with the ball at 28? The good players that peak then typically because as theyve entered the league theyve been put in positiosn to succeed. Rose needs the ball in hands now to make his mistakes now and start learning now. Not 8 years down the line.
"which is bit unfair because the Bulls organization hasn’t put him in the greatest position to succeed."
Agree with this completely. I’ve been among those dissappointed in Derrick this season, but this organization – for all it’s b.s. about making him the franchise – has done everything it could to hamper his development. No respectable, experienced coach to lean on. Got a floor spacer? Trade him. Post presence – never had it, don’t want it.
I was watching the Thunder last night – if Westbrook has literally 4 very good shooters (for their position) on the floor with him in the starting lineup. Derrick Rose doesn’t have one.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Your concern about Rose getting technical advise is well founded.
Thankfully, we have an excellent development staff headed by Randy Brown to address precisely those problems.
Ugh...
This seems to make it obvious that VDN needs to go. Role definition is one of the most if not the most important job a coach has! Everyone on the team needs to know if they are a primary ball handler, shooter, scorer, screener, rebounder, slasher, penetrator, primary passer etc. Players can certainly have multiple roles, but they need to know what they are and when/if they should change. Noah seems to know his role quite well, and this is why he has been successful, but he probably defined this role for himself. Noah also should not be a primary on the ball screener (although an off the ball screener is fine), but this is all part of Vinny’s continuing delusions about what will work with this team. He wants Rose to be a primary scorer, penetrator, and ball handler and a secondary passer. Rose thinks his role ought to be a primary passer. Vinny has not set up a system for Rose to be successful in any of these roles! Fire him and hire a player development coach. So long as their skills are better developed and they have a marginally decent offensive scheme, the Bulls would look world’s better.
Shorter Rose
“I’m not a SG. I create for others. Others have to make shots. Others have to take the shots I create for them. Don’t pass up on the shot. I’ve already broken down the defense to create your shot. SHOOT IT. Shoot the J. Game-blouses.”
All these crocodile tears are absorbed when our shots start falling. I don’t care how bad the shooting numbers are fro Kurt, Deng, and Salmons. Rose needs to keep getting them the ball and Vinny needs to drill them to shoot the shots that Rose creates for them.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
Rose is right, but Hey Iverson's available.
We could have signed Iverson and had one guy take all the shots.
still buying into the 'ball movement' = championships thing?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 15, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
First of all, as you said, they stink
they’re only open if the team wants them to be.
And I don’t see a lot of Rose creating them open looks. He rarely gets too far in a drive/kick, and most of his passing around the perimiter may give Neil Funk a boner but it doesn’t accomplish much.
Rose needs to be a more commanding scoring presence for his own offense as well as creating a way to get defenses to even further leave the other guys open, so John Salmons can now dribble 5 times instead of 4 and launch a fadeaway brick (sorry, I gave up mid-thought).
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 15, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
All of this stuff is mutually reinforcing
Rose can’t be much more commanding a scoring presence because defenses are totally keyed into him. It’s not too much of an exaggeration to say every opponent on the floor is often watching him and not their own guy. I think that’s the main reason the drive and kick game doesn’t work as well as it should.
So if guys his their shots, they’ll score more.
If they score more, so will Rose.
On the other hand, I think the funky passing around the perimeter and stillborn, half-assed screens the Bulls attempt are largely just terribly conceived and poorly executed to boot. Sometimes I wonder if Deng hates Rose, because his off the ball offense is incredibly unhelpful. Especially for a guy who couldn’t create a shot to save his life.
And I think the way to get out of that circular conundrum...
…is to have a real offense that is actually helping the players get open looks.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
My main problem with Vinny is he doesn’t put his players in the best position to succeed. A good coach does have well defined roles for all players. Vinny has guys out there basically willy-nilly….Tyrus floatin on the perimeter…Derrick standing around in the corner. No good coaching or teaching on this team at all.
As far as college goes,
he’s excellent, as he’s a superb recruiter, but in terms of actual coaching would his success translate to the NBA level? I know he coached the Nets in the mid-late nineties, and he did poorly, but perhaps things have changed.
If you’re intent on dreaming, set your sights on Rick Adelman.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
If Rick Adelman was here.
We would reach the conference finals only to be screwed over by the refs over and over again.
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