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The Bulls and Young Talent

I wasn't as high on Tyrus as some, but I would've never, ever guessed he'd be in the doghouse 3 games into the season.  Now I wouldn't be surprised if we trade him for next to nothing.

With this coming on the heels of letting Gordon walk, it's easy to see a trend developing.  But the sad thing is this has been going on for years.  Here's the long line of talented young players the Bulls have traded for pennies on the dollar, or let go for nothing:

ELTON BRAND

  • Bulls Performance: Two 20/10 seasons on the Bulls
  • Bulls' Publicized Concern:  Elton wasn't happy, there were rumors he didn't want to extend, Krause didn't think he was a superstar.
  • Trade and Aftermath: Brand for Chandler, Brand goes on to make two all-star games during six straight 18/9 seasons.
  • String o' Trades: Brand -> Chandler ... Chandler -> PJ Brown, JR Smith ... JR Smith -> Aaron Gray.

RON ARTEST

  • Bulls Performance: Started nearly every game over 2.5 years playing 31mpg.  Terrible shooter, but defensive star with the ability to penetrate and pass.
  • Bulls' Publicized Concern: Artest's maturity, and like Brand, Jerry Krause didn't think Artest was a superstar to build around.
  • Trade and Aftermath: Artest and 26-year old Brad Miller for Jalen Rose.  Artest became crazy, but also one of the league's elite complementary players, making an all-star team.  Miller made two all-star teams.  Jalen fizzled immediately and was traded two years later for Antonio Davis.
  • String o' Trades: Artest, Miller -> Rose ... Rose, Donyell Marshall -> Antonio Davis.

TYSON CHANDLER

  • Bulls Performance: Averaged 25mpg from ages 19-23, starting 50 games his final year with the Bulls.  He was below average offensively, but gained a reputation as a top rebounder and defender while anchoring the 2nd rated defense in 2005.
  • Bulls' Publicized Concern:  Endurance issues made him tire late in games and limited his minutes.  And at the time, he wasn't Ben Wallace.
  • Trade and Aftermath: Chandler for PJ Brown and JR Smith.  Chandler finished top-10 in the league in DReb% the next two seasons before injuries limited him last season.  He's still just 27.
  • String o' Trades: Chandler -> PJ Brown, JR Smith ... JR Smith -> Aaron Gray

JR SMITH

  • Bulls Performance: None.
  • Bulls Publicized Concerns: Bulls coaches didn't like him.
  • Trade and Aftermath: Smith for what turned out to be Aaron Gray.  Smith is still a poor defender with legitimate maturity issues, but he scored 16ppg in the playoffs over the past two years.  He's grown into one of the league's best 3pt shooters, making 40% while attempting 9 per 36min.

BEN GORDON

  • Bulls Performance: Averaged 18ppg for five seasons as a top sharpshooter, led the Bulls in points scored all five years.
  • Bulls Publicized Concern: Rumored "me-first" attitude, rift with VDN, below average defense, debatable fit with Derrick Rose.
  • Trade and Aftermath: Bulls let him walk for nothing.

OTHERS...

Jamal Crawford - Averaged 17ppg for us at age 23 before we traded him essentially for Othella Harrington after Paxson cited improving team defense and commitment.

Matt Bonner - Now the starting PF for the Spurs.  We traded him for Chris Duhon.

Chris Duhon - Now the starting PG for the Knicks.  Played 25mpg for us for four years. We lost him for nothing after numerous reports that he missed team meetings.

Roger Mason - Was never given a shot here.  Started 71 games for the Spurs last year, making 42% of 3s.  We lost him for nothing.

Thabo Sefolosha - Decent defender, good rebounder, terrible offensively, but still just 24 years old when we traded him for Taj Gibson.  Currently starts for the Thunder.

!!!!!!Eddy Curry!!!!!!! - The one time we've actually benefited from identifying a guy was going to suck!  Traded him for Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah. 

OVERALL

The Eddy Curry ripping of Isiah Thomas aside...

We've Traded/Let Go: 

Elton Brand
Ron Artest
Brad Miller
Tyson Chandler
Ben Gordon
JR Smith
Jamal Crawford
Matt Bonner
Chris Duhon
Roger Mason
Thabo Sefolosha

And Got in Return: 

Tyson Chandler
JR Smith
PJ Brown
Jalen Rose
Aaron Gray
Othella Harrington
Chris Duhon
Taj Gibson

Which Turned Out To Be: 
PJ Brown
Antonio Davis
Aaron Gray
Othella Harrington
Taj Gibson

Which Currently Is:
Aaron Gray
Taj Gibson

No wonder VDN wants to play Taj so bad! Since the Brand/Chandler trade, we've posted a combined record of 287-373, with two winning seasons and one playoff series victory.

TYRUS' SITUATION

Now another young, talented player looks to be halfway out the door before getting a chance to develop.  Like Brand's happiness, Artest's maturity, the staff's not liking Smith, Gordon, Crawford (weird how often this happens), there are concerns, some probably legitimate.

But to me in these situations, there should be two options.  

1) Play the guy a ton, recognize internally that he's not going to develop into a star, then move him for better young talent (like we did with Eddy Curry and tried to do with Brand), or

2) Play the guy a ton, and extend him.

The worst, worst, WORST thing to do is bench him, leak your concerns about him to the press, and then try to trade him or let him walk.  Especially with a guy like Tyrus who, with his filled box scores and highlight reel plays, would make some GMs salivate.

In my $20 fantasy football league, this tactic is obvious to everyone - when you want to trade someone, put him in your starting lineup and say you like the guy, then when you make him available good offers will pour in.  You'd think a $500 million dollar franchise would figure out the same.

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This was really interesting.

Yet at the same time makes me want to cry.

by Stacey_Is_King on Nov 4, 2009 3:28 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Great stuff YaoPau,

man does this organization suck.

Metal sharpens metal.

And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan

by dakoose on Nov 4, 2009 3:38 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Thomas

100% agree the Bulls need to play Thomas a lot, starting two years ago. They drafted him in lottery so play him! and either keep or trade him. Not playing him is the worst, now do not know what they have and has less trade value.

And if they don’t like what Thomas has shown so far then why did they draft him? What else did they expect he would do? To me he’s exactly the player they should have expected based on his college play and athletic ability / skills when they drafted him. So if you aren’t interested in playing him, why draft him in 1st place. Its not like he was dominate on offense in college and now sucks, he is what he is.

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 4, 2009 3:44 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

the only thing i'll dispute is

“Artest became crazy.” part of the reason they got rid of him is that he had already shown signs of being so, there were a few things i recall reading about well after he was gone at least that caused the bulls concern.

that said, nice post! it is depressing though.

"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"

by Jaina on Nov 4, 2009 4:19 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

and if it wasn't clear

i wasn’t REALLY ripping on you for saying that about artest ;)

"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"

by Jaina on Nov 4, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I absolutely absolve them re: Artest

that was a special case.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2009 4:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There was a story that at one practice Artest

was tossing a basketball against a wall and over the heads of some of the other players. He apparently kept throwing the ball lower and lower, and each throw was harder and harder, until the last ones were just inches over their heads…. don’t know if its true or not but I wouldn’t be surprised.

When he was 12 he supposedly saw a guy get stabbed with the leg of a table on the basketball court in NYC. That would mess any kid up mentally.

by 72-10 on Nov 5, 2009 8:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Artest responded to that

He was wearing those terrible plaid shorts and no shirt. Now, I am not excusing pulling the Tracy Jordan Signature more and removing your shirt, but he did have pants on.

If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.

by Chi 'Till I Die on Nov 7, 2009 10:15 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Question is, how many holdovers are there from the Krause regime? And why lump two completely different GM's together?

Seems to me like the Bulls don’t have a trouble retaining young talent, they have a trouble dealing with anyone who isn’t a perfect player in practice, locker room, etc. To combat this, they place an incredibly high value on players who earn the “hustle player” tag and use these guys of limited capabilities to cast a negative light on the combustible players. Spending 60 million on Ben Wallace, 35 million on Nocioni, not moving PJ Brown at the deadline, and now letting the 15th man of a roster publicly berate a player.

The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.

by Ozzie Montana on Nov 4, 2009 5:25 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

One would think that Pax would know just how important star talent is,

after spending several years with Michael and Scottie. It’s very strange that he would, as a GM, assemble a team of as many low ceiling, high character/hustle style guys as possible. His approach never made sense to me. I immediately knocked his Ben Wallace signing, as evidence by this poorly written piece I posted on my old blog over at FoxSports.com over three years ago. This organization needs an overhaul, with anyone not named Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah on the firing/trading block.

Metal sharpens metal.

And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan

by dakoose on Nov 4, 2009 6:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I've wondered that myself

they said the right things when Rose was drafted about the need for stars. But Pax the GM almost makes it seem he believes Pax the player was the key to those titles…

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2009 8:56 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

lacking ability to distingush between street toughness and ghetto..

fear driven alter boy, alias VP of Operations

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"

by exult463 on Nov 5, 2009 12:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

this is the second time the 15th man has done this

remember Adrian Griffin (I know nobody wants to…)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2009 8:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Noah turned out okay, though. I don't think Tyrus will respond to this shii...um, crap.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Nov 4, 2009 9:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Noah's going to win,

he doesn’t even care.
He would turn out good no matter what happened.
Tyrus needs a little coddling, and he’s just getting shat on.

I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]

by Prevenge on Nov 4, 2009 9:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s because he despised Griffin and the others and he told them so.

by biolb on Nov 6, 2009 12:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

he wasn’t respecting Boylan too.

by biolb on Nov 6, 2009 12:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't Shoot the Messenger

they were just carrying the coaches water. I don’t think for one minute that this wasn’t orchestrated by VDN. Same thing with Griffin. These guys are not going to publicly call out a starting player of a potential starter/star without the full consent of the coach. Maybe a star like Kobe or DWade might, but not a scrub.

by Cannoli on Nov 5, 2009 12:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well I'm shooting the whole Org.

for letting it go on. I agree that Hunter wouldn’t do it of his own volition.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 5, 2009 11:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Another depressing, but solid post about the organization.

I hope we rattle off a few wins or something, starting with Cleveland, so I can again forget about how poorly this team has been run for the last 10 years.

by RyPac13 on Nov 4, 2009 6:30 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

It's really sad to see that the Bulls lost good players for nothing

That’s why I want Tyrus to be traded. I’m sure he will flourish in another team and will show to the knucklehead that coaches the Bulls that he has value to start every game

p.s. great post

Jannero Pargo = Larry Hughes 2.0

by bull83 on Nov 4, 2009 6:30 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Great post

I was messing around with the Trade Machine and it let me trade Ty and Jerome James for Rudy Gay and Marko Jaric (7 mil this year and next). If Memphis would do that (we’d be taking their worst non-Randolph contract off a poor team’s hands) would you want to? Could you go to war with Gay at the 4, Deng at the 3 and Rose for the next three years?

"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...

by Curtain Jerker on Nov 4, 2009 7:56 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

The really bad part would be missing out on 2010, but I'm VERY pessimistic about the Bulls

chances to land anyone in the 2010 FA “bonanza,” given how inept this Org. is. So landing someone as talented as Rudy Gay wouldn’t be so bad.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Nov 4, 2009 8:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

I’m terrified of a repeat of 2000, when we got nothing despite tons of cap space.

"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...

by Curtain Jerker on Nov 4, 2009 8:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think they bought out Jaric?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2009 8:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Did they?

He’s on both their ESPN roster and the Trade Machine.

"Your eyes can decieve you. Don't trust them." Obi-Wan Kenobi, the first sabermetrician...

by Curtain Jerker on Nov 4, 2009 9:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

quick look at the google

and there was the talk that they would buy him out, but they haven’t done so while he looks for a trade (good luck).

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 5, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Would they ever entertain making that deal?

I’d do it in a heartbeat.

Metal sharpens metal.

And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan

by dakoose on Nov 4, 2009 11:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The way they're dealing with Thomas...

…reminds of how the Cubs are dealing with Milton Bradley. Really, the only thing the Cubs expected Bradley to do this year that he hasn’t is hit for him. He’s got on base, played an adequate defensive RF, played a large number of games and was a total ass to the media, on the field and probably in the clubhouse.

Then they suspended him, allowing a lot of internal stuff get public, so that not only do they have to trade the guy (to keep chemistry in the clubhouse and to appease the fans), but everyone knows it. If they’re lucky, they’ll get take on shit prospects for him. More likely, they’ll have to take back a worse player with as bad of a contract.

If only they had tried to be more positive, got behind him more (even if faking it), let him play out the season, they could have tried to spin trade proposals in a way that they needed more power and Bradley is just better suited for the AL where he doesn’t have to play the field every day or something.

Even if all the blame is on Bradley (and it might be, and it might be on Thomas, although I doubt it is “completely” on both), I don’t see how either organization could have played it worse. And the media just laps up the crumbs and narrative these organizations give out, rarely giving “tough” questions.

Why do I like Chicago teams again?

(Luckily, in the NFL, players are in and out of the door so fast and teams can rebuild so quickly, that it doesn’t matter as much, otherwise, as evidenced by Cedric Benson, I’m sure it’d be just as bad with the Bears. —-hah! kinda funny who the 4th & 5th rushers in the league are right now compared to mr. 3.5 yards per carry)

Thomas wants

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Nov 4, 2009 10:43 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

no other sports OT

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 4, 2009 10:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay. I thought it was relevant to draw the parallel...

…and imply it will never change for the Bulls because it’s just the culture of pro sports in general in the city. My bad.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Nov 5, 2009 9:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Milton Bradley thing is a little off base in my opinion.

You mention a few things that he hasn’t done: hitting (basically the most important aspect of the game, there’s hundreds of guys that can play right field in this world at a professional level, a much smaller % that can hit) and you also mention that he’s been shitty to the media and in the clubhouse.

So a guy that plays poorly and treats his teammates and the media like crap is still somehow valuable to a team and should be treated well?

If Tyrus was a dick to his teammates and the media and couldn’t play very well, I would support whatever they wanted to do with him (suspend, trade, harass, etc.).

The facts are that Tyrus has started to develop into what looks like it could be a good player. Yes, his first year or two he wasn’t much, but we drafted a raw kid with 1 year of experience. I mean, his main skill was that he could jump super high. He played with another elite collect player (Baby Davis) down low, so teams weren’t focused solely on TT at LSU. I could go on.

The point is that Tyrus is developing and the Bulls (mainly VDN) seem to be hindering that development somewhat.

Milton Bradley played poorly this year. He is a nine year veteran in the MLB and hasn’t posted numbers so bad since 2002 or 2003. When a guy is performing so badly he should be nicer, not more of a dick to his teammates and the media.

by RyPac13 on Nov 5, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks YaoPo for your awesome post highlighting Bulls brASSes superior talent evaluation skills

Thanks to your insights and the painful memories of ineptitude they’ve conjured up, as a loyal Bulls fan, I’ve decided to quietly go in the bathroom so as not to disturb my wife, who thinks I waste too much time on BaB for some reason, and slit my wrists.

But not before I first go to church and ask for forgiveness for offing myself. While I’m there, I intend to also light a candle for Tyrus Thomas, who by now, after being once again jacked around by the lead Jacker-offer, is likely contemplating doing something similar before his head explodes.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Nov 4, 2009 11:16 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

The Bulls management clearly seem to be the problem there.

For some reason, they feel like the players should fit in rather than them trying their all to make the players welcome and develop them, and understand that every player is different. You learn that everywhere (just did on a training about project management), you need to put people of different abilities and characters together to have a winning team.

Tyrus doesn’t fit your mold, well then try to understand him and make him feel welcome, appreciated. That’s what a sports franchise management should be paid for. Clearly the Bulls are not doing this. And the result is crappiness, letting go of talented players, no development of young players, etc. NOT GOOD and doesn’t bode well for the future of the Derrick Rose era.

One example : Thabo (OK, I’m biased since I’m from his hometown), the Thunder felt like he had potential to develop into a very good role player, defensive ace, and short term starter too. What did they do ? The complete opposite of the Bulls. They recognized that Thabo needed to feel wanted, appreciated, and with more confidence would strive. Thabo worked his ass off this summer to improve his 3-point shot (among other things) and he came back better, with the confidence that the Thunder counted on him and liked him a lot. Then what did the Thunder do (before extending his contract) ? They paid for an advertising campaign (on billboards) in Thabo’s hometown. What was written on those billboards ? The Thunder really appreciate Thabo Sefolosha and count on him for the future (written in French obviously). Thabo’s mother saw these while walking in the streets, called her son, very touched she was, he didn’t know about it either and was quite surprised, pleasantly that is. The next day (more or less) he signed a contract with them.

Now that’s what I call taking care of your players, make them feel wanted, and then sign them to fair contracts (without nasty negotiations and the lot).

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Nov 5, 2009 5:16 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

there's some truth to that

PaxDorf expects the guys to buy in and sacrifice and all that as a given when they come into the league.

It’d be nice but it’s not the case for some players.

Pax has been quoted on more than one occasion being marveled at how players are today not realizing ‘how good they have it’ with the first-class travel and such.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 5, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Where does one draw the line with this

I understand completely if the organization wants a player to sacrifice for the team and to give all they have to improve the team, but I don’t feel that is what the bulls want.

Its like they want their players to sacrifice AND be good old company men. So because of that we are going to lose good players? You need to have players who will sacrifice, but you are going to have to deal with the other types (Tyrus) sometimes. ESPECIALLY if you draft the guy knowing he isn’t within your usual mold.

If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.

by Chi 'Till I Die on Nov 7, 2009 1:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Conveniently...

You leave out Jay Williams…

Why isn't your friendly Bulls Blogger friendly?

by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 5, 2009 8:43 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

What did the Org have to do with him?

He broke his damn contract when he rode that bike.

If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.

by Chi 'Till I Die on Nov 7, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This list is annoyningly inconsistent...

I don’t understand the point of listing players who were once Bulls, sometimes in theory only (see Bonner, Smith) arbitrarily, but not listing the other players…(Chris Mihm, LaMarcus Aldridge, Rodney Carney)…

I generally like your posts, but your conclusions are faulty in this case…those 11 players are not all inextricably tied to the two on our roster…

Why isn't your friendly Bulls Blogger friendly?

by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 5, 2009 8:49 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I didn't include Mihm, Aldridge, Carney because

they were parts of trades made prior to their pick. We intended to draft Crawford, Tyrus, Thabo all along, but knew we could move down, so we drafted those three and did a swap. Bonner and Smith were actual usable pieces we let get away.

by YaoPau on Nov 5, 2009 9:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This is a great post YaoPau

It not only brings to light what the Bulls did in terms of evaluating players, it also showed why they did it and why this organization shouldn’t be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to decisions made on this team.

Time after time and player after player, Management have shown an arrogant and terrible ability to analyze their own talent. What upsets me most is the public excuses given to why a Tyson Chandler no longer fits or why a JR Smith had no place on this team or why a Gordon couldn’t fit and now how Tyrus is a malcontent. What’s worse is that the media in this town eats it up by the spoonful. It’s easier to make an excuse to why Tyrus has to go than it is to explain how Kirk Hinrich is making 11mil a year or why John Salmons is averaging 11ppg as a starting 2-guard while the guy he’s replaced is putting up 25ppg and entering his prime. Or hiring an inept coach and letting him possibly ruin Derrick Rose. It’s these types of decisions that make me despise this franchise.

by Dils on Nov 5, 2009 8:50 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

If the Bulls had listened to guys like Dils

They wouldn’t be in such a pickle.

If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard

by Tyrusmancrush on Nov 5, 2009 10:18 AM CST reply actions   2 recs

What worries me about the Bulls' management keeping TT

is the cap hold the Bulls will be forced to take on at 7/1/10. Before they can pursue FA’s they will either have to sign TT almost immediately or trade him. Sadly, it seems the most expediate solution from the Bulls’ perspective would be to trade him.

by hlac on Nov 5, 2009 10:23 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I agree

Vinny’s had enough, apparently. Things won’t get dramatically better over the season to where Tyrus ‘breaks out’ to the point where the chairman would dream giving him a long-term contract. He couldn’t even re-sign Ben Gordon, who by all accounts is an exemplary professional.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 5, 2009 11:06 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

It's not a big deal. The Bulls can always pull the QO off the table if their negotiations with a FA bear fruit

That’s what the Magic did with Darko Millic a couple years ago, for example. When free agency started, they made him the QO, which created a cap hold.

But then they went out and negotiated with Rashard Lewis and reached and agreement. Upon reaching the agreement with Lewis, they had to create the salary room to sign him, so they retracted the QO from Darko and made him a UFA.

by Sports2 on Nov 5, 2009 4:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly, they can wait until the last second

though I wonder if they do the same renouncing for a non Wade/Bosh FA. I see more hemming and/or hawing.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Tyrus will not be an above average player in the NBA

This kid does not know how to play the game. Your article was well constructed but I can’t agree with the conclusion that Tyrus is another talent we will let go. There were others sure, but that does not mean that Tyrus has more to show than he has showed us in his 3 full years. He has demonstrated to me that he does not know how to play pro ball. He has athleticism but it take more than that. I agree with VDN bench players during crunch time that have no idea what to do on the court.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 5, 2009 11:58 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I'm curious

I’ve heard others say that he doesn’t understand as well. What exactly do you feel, he doesn’t do well or well enough to merit playing time?

by Dils on Nov 5, 2009 12:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fundamentals.. I could write a bunch, but don't fool yourself

Just look at the fundamental things Gibson does, that Tyrus still doesn’t do. Sure he “tyrus” can jump out of the gym, but his basketball IQ is aloof and off season he works on parts of his game to become the next Tracy McGrady. A shooting guard. Tyrus thinks he has shooting range from every angle on the court, if only he could perfect a consistent 12 footer from desired locations consistently and also average with-in the 8 to 10 rbg, and consistently consistently consistently perform as a power forward or small forward or a shooting guard? Hell I don’t know what position he plays or plays well in even after 4 years?

"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"

by exult463 on Nov 15, 2009 6:50 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

That sure worked in the playoffs last year

oh wait
What happened in Game 1, again? I don’t remember. Something about Tyrus Thomas hitting jumpers.
There was something else about TT’s splits getting a lot better over the year, and his apparently improvement. Yeah … I guess he’s doomed to failure, not like he’s younger than our rookie PF or anything.

I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]

by Prevenge on Nov 5, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL....

Prevenge, Are you being humorous on purpose? Are you claiming that Thomas is consistent? If you are then we don’t really have anything to discuss we will just have to agree to disagree.

Dils, Thomas does not do a good job of one on one defense. I know he gets blocks but has trouble in one on one situations. Thomas has no back to the basket game. His jumper is as inconsistent as the stock market. He averages 5.0 rebounds for is career (unacceptable for a starting PF). He does not understand how to blend into an offensive screen e.g. where to be on the floor in certain circumstances. He is just not and in my mind will never be a starting PF on a team that gets deep into the playoff.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 5, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It was only 3 games

But have you seen Tyrus in the (limited for no apparent reason) minutes that he had against San Antonio, Boston, and Miami? He was damn good.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Nov 5, 2009 7:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention

The rebounding stat you posted is flawed. Last year Tyrus averaged 10.1 rebounds per36, and has 9 rebounds per36 over his career.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Nov 5, 2009 7:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not claiming Thomas is consistent. I'm claiming he's more consistent.

He’s not consistent yet, but hi consistency is improving. Honestly, judging how specious the consistency claim really is, I’d be surprised if he’s ever deemed ‘consistent’ again … at least for another 2~3 years.
But he’s getting better, and even on his off nights he’s better than Taj, with more upside, and the ability to take over a game – something we really don’t have much of.

And yeah, as stupidgenius said, Tyrus has looked really good so far this year.

I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]

by Prevenge on Nov 6, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"You apparently think Thomas is a good basketball player and I don’t think he is even close to a good player. "

See, statistics and every single measure of ‘what makes a good basketball player’ disagree with you, so … yeah.
Fortunately for you, it looks like the Bulls are going to let TT go [and he’ll blow up somewhere else], sign some crappy tier 2 or 3 FA, and be in pretty much the same position they’re in now – early playoff exits!
Yay!!

I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]

by Prevenge on Nov 6, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You look at the stats..

Stop trying to manipulate them to help your argument. HE GOT 6.5 rebounds last year PERIOD. I don’t care if 10 percent of the time this or that. It is a FACT that his career average is 5 deal with it.

And if you are so sure that the stats show he is a good player then why aren’t other GM’s waiting in line to trade for him?? Oh I forgot you guys are better analysts than all the GM’s. LOL.. You guys crack me up. Yes I saw Thomas in limited action this year and I was not impressed apparently you are seeing something I don’t..

I am not saying he is below average I am saying he IS AVERAGE. You all think he is the second coming with very little to support such a thought. I don’t care about per this or per that. Good players have good stats throughout the year and for their career. You don’t need to look further than that in my opinion. I am very glad he will not be on our team next year and you all will blame every loss on the fact that we lost an average player. Round and round we go LOL…

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 6, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This is your problem
I don’t care about per this or per that.

Per36 can be useless if you’re talking about a scrub. But we’re not. We’re talking about a starter quality player who is getting way less minutes than he should because all his coaches have either put him in the doghouse, been idiots, or both. Per36, he’s averaged 9 rebounds per game, for his career. So the “always been a bad rebounder claim” has always been wrong.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Nov 6, 2009 9:02 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Stop trying to be an idiot.

I’m not “manipulating stats”. It’s hard to get however many rebounds when you’re on the court for less than 20 minutes a game.
Let’s have an experiment. Take any player. OK, now pretend that each quarter in one of their games IS A GAME. OK, let’s see if they get the same amount of production “per game” as they would otherwise.

Why do I even have to explain this to you?!? Seriously? You don’t think that per 36 is important: it has to be per game? It’s hard to get as much in any category as others if you’re held back for whatever reason [laziness/lack of coaching/harsh coaching/positional glut/coaching incompetence, respectively].

I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.

by Prevenge on Nov 7, 2009 3:12 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Prevenge

Don’t go calling names. I am willing to bet my houses that I have a much higher education level than you and from much better schools. So end that right there you child.

His stats are as I have stated. Good players have good stats PERIOD. Thomas does not have good stats for his career. You can try to explain that FACT away as much as you like but in the end it remains a fact. You can cry all you want to but the fact will remain that Tyrus is not and never will be an above average player on a contending team. And after next year you can enjoy watching his baffling play on another team.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 10, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

idiot.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 10, 2009 2:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

sorry.

idiotPERIOD.

I’m going to go upstairs and ask my Mom if I can put up the house against your houses.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 10, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

this is why i come to BaB...

For the most hyperbolic commenters on the internets.

Formerly known as Rick S.

by SABRSox on Nov 10, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

heh

we really do suck :)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 10, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry forgot I was talking to kids.

Thanks for the reminder though your friendly bullsblogger. So I will take your comments with a grain of salt with is all they are really worth until you get in a little real life experience. I was watching basketball when you were cuddling to cabbage patch by the way. Maybe just ask your mom for some quarters for the local arcade I have no interest in taking your home lol.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 10, 2009 4:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm still waiting for you

to compare something to the Nazis. That would just about complete the “how not to win internet arguments” list you’ve been working through. Just can’t resist Godwin’s Law.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 10, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

keep waiting..

glad you care that much about my comments. thanks.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 10, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Mom said no on the quarters

I keep forgetting to take them out of my jean shorts and they rattle the dryer when she does my laundry.

I hope to one day be as world-weary as you: nothing says real life experience like putting your wang on the table on a basketball blog!

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 10, 2009 5:51 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I hope so to...

Yea, not sure what “world-weary” means but once you gain a couple of years and learn a few things here and there you will know what I was talking about.

I did not start the insults all I did was disagree with what was being said. When insulted I did respond. Just as most do on this site.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 11, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Yea, not sure what "world-weary" means but once you gain a couple of years and learn a few things here and there you will know what I was talking about.

by NittanyCub on Nov 11, 2009 12:42 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

LOL..

What are you two?? Grow up nice name to nittanycub wow.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 11, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You really don't get it?

Entire comment thread recced.

I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.

by Prevenge on Nov 11, 2009 11:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Education level has nothing to do

with basketball knowledge. And good players don’t always have good stats. Kobe Bryant has always kicked ass, but in his rookie year, he didn’t start, and he averaged less than 10 points per game.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Nov 10, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sometimes it does...

Don’t underestimate the value of education it helps in many aspects of life. Kobe showed much more promise by his third year. You know that so the comparison is a bit much her.

I am sure Tyrus will not be an above average player on a good team. When he gets to another team lets discuss it again. He gets benched because he has little to no basketball IQ on the floor. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree here.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 10, 2009 4:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

haha

I was on your side at the beginning of the argument…but now you’re just being ridiculous. I am just curious why you are holding so strongly to your “anti-per36” bias…its just ignorant if you look at that and say that it doesn’t matter. If you were extrapolating per36 stats for a guy playing 2-3 minutes a game then you’re absolutely right, unfortunately for you the argument is that he could get more rebounds per game if he got more minutes…which is exactly what per36 helps with..

by BooRad16 on Nov 10, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I could care less about per36

I know you all think it is the second coming of stat analysis but I think you can watch the games and see why he does not get the minutes. Many people that get paid very well GM’s and the Bulls Coaches know why he does not get minutes. If all the GM’s/Execs really thought Thomas was something special because of his per36 stats Im sure some teams would be inquiring about his availability but they are not. Simply for the fact that he is not as good as many of you think he is.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 10, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"per36" is the second coming?

wow

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Nov 10, 2009 5:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Since he is old enough to have seen the first coming perhaps he has one up on you, tyger.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 10, 2009 5:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought we were to like the sixth coming already.

Elephino.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Nov 10, 2009 6:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL so now you know my age..

Just because I have a few years on some of you teens… Wow, nice topic change I guess..

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 11, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And now because he didn't get Matt's joke

about living with his mom, he thinks that we’re a site full of ten-year-olds.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Nov 11, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

per36 doesn't work with scrubs

But when you’re making an arguement that a guy who gets 20 minutes per game should get more minutes and doesn’t have any known stamina problems (Miller), then per36 is very useful.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Nov 11, 2009 12:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Look your argument has some meaning.

But it is in no way proof that Thomas is a good player. If you look at his Plus/Minus stats it really appears that he hurts the team more than he helps. Which helps support my stance that his presence on the court hurts our team more than it helps.

He is undersized does not play good man on man defense. Does not handle the ball well. Has no back to the basket game. And has a very inconsistent jumper. That is why I think he is a sixth man at best on a good team. If you disagree I can appreciate that with no insults. But there is evidence that can be found to support either side that is my main point.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 11, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Now he's undersized?

And Tyrus has a positive APM.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Nov 11, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You do not agree his is undersized

I thought that was common knowledge that he is an undersized PF??

That depends on where you look.
http://basketballvalue.com/teamplayers.php?team=CHI&year=2008-2009
Tyrus is red in every category here. There is statistical evidence that supports both positions. If you can’t even admit that then there is no reason to continue the discussion.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 11, 2009 2:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Common knowledge blows.

Thomas is not “undersized” counter argument. (From those with non-common brain power.)

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Nov 12, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL hope that works out for you tyger

But yes he is undersized and if not I sure do wish he would use the size that is not there and be more physical in the post.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 13, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

“I agree with VDN bench players during crunch time that have no idea what to do on the court.”

So we are competitive during the quarters Tyrus plays in and he seems to be doing well…but then we take him out because supposedly he hurts us and then the 4th quarter happens and we lose the game because Taj gets too much time, Deng is attempting to be a PF, we can’t get rebounds, and the other team has nothing to fear around the basket. That’s a winning strategy. Also, why don’t guys like Salmons get benched for chucking and being unable to hit the broad side of the barn? He by far has been the worst starter on the team this season, not Tyrus.

All of the Bulls players have their issues that probably hurt the team, issues many of them keep repeating, but only Tyrus gets the personal treatment. Seems to me that all of this togetherness talk we’ve been forced fed through the meeting only works if you have someone to hold in opposition to that. Got a problem with the team? Oh, just point to Tyrus. Forget the fact the team has deep rooted problems that have very little to do with Tyrus. Just keep telling everyone that when Tyrus is gone things will get better. Worked so well with BG, right? Our offense and defense are suddenly in the top five? Riiight. We don’t turn the ball over much anymore? Yeeeah. We look just as dysfunctional as before only now we know it had little to do with BG.

Tyrus’ personality is well known. Why can’t the coaches work with that? Instead of finding new ways of getting the best they can out of Tyrus they go back to the same passive aggressive behavior (having Hunter chew you out can’t be mistaken for anything but passive aggressive) that has never ever worked on him before. Not all guys respond the same way to things. You think going into his 4th year with this team they’d know him well enough to try a different approach. And face it, using Taj as motivation doesn’t work. Tyrus has always had some straw man used against him in that way when all he needed was a clear runway once in his career. Playing with one eye watching your back doesn’t help a guy. It doesn’t work on him, it hurts the team, and it is probably hurting Taj (and perhaps JJ too since some guy with bricks for hands gets playing time and the other rookie doesn’t).

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 5, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

We just disagree on one major thing..

You apparently think Thomas is a good basketball player and I don’t think he is even close to a good player. He is reckless and inconsistent. I guess I am glad that the coach see’s it the same way as me. Might not be a popular stance but I look forward to watching games without having to see Thomas on the floor.

Do the Bulls have other problems. Yes I agree for sure but in my mind Thomas’s attitude and play is one of the biggest problems that need to be addressed. How many years and excuses are you going to give this guy before you accept that he is not an above average player? Will you ever come to that conclusion? I am starting to doubt that any fans of Thomas will come to that conclusion no matter how poorly he plays. Fortunately for me it looks like if you want to continue to watch Thomas play after this year you will have to watch another team.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 5, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't want to see Taj play and I don't want to see Deng smashed up by athletic PFs.

Play the best player. That is still Tyrus no matter what you think. Even if he is gone by the end of the season. And then next season get a new PF. Because it will never be Taj.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 5, 2009 7:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If Thomas' attitude is a problem that needs to be addressed

Then address it. Don’t just blame him, and say you need to get your act together or we’ll bench you, when that’s never worked before.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Nov 5, 2009 7:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That wasn't my conclusion

I agree there’s a good chance Tyrus never becomes an above-average player. But that doesn’t mean we can’t get an above-average talent for him once we give him minutes to showcase him.

by YaoPau on Nov 5, 2009 3:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

YaoPau

You are right on this I worded my post incorrectly above. I think it was a great post, I just am growing so tired of all the Thomas fans coming up with excuse after excuse. Now Thomas hurt his arm lifting weights?? After a flu? This guy seems like a head case to me that is just pouting because of his diminishing role. So instead of go prove his point on the court he chooses to come up with reasons to stay off of it??? I really am not buying into he got the flu then hurt his arm lifting weights, it is just not adding up.

The Dude Abides

by Savage23 on Nov 6, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Even if he is pouting, and he shouldn't be

and it’s immature, there still the fact that Taj should not be playing so many minutes. That’s on VDN for being a dumbass, and the front office for hiring VDN, and not setting him straight now.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Nov 6, 2009 9:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd be surprised if JJ isn't a little confused too.

He is getting less time than even Thabo did coming in I think. Feast or famine.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 7, 2009 1:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Let me ask you this...

Now, I like Tyrus, but I understand the need to let him go. However, it would be wise to get something for him rather than letting him go for nothing. He is the better player than Taj and he will learn. Throughout his career he has been jerked around by coaching and hasn’t been given the time to develop. IF nothing else he needs the minutes to be effective grade bait.

If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.

by Chi 'Till I Die on Nov 7, 2009 1:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

*trade bait.

If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.

by Chi 'Till I Die on Nov 7, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He will and if he doesn't

You will still be pissed when he plays against the Bulls, block 8 shots and you remember you actually got Othella Harrington the Second in that trade

by JustAnotherFan on Nov 9, 2009 8:19 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yao, your crying eyes made you forget

that trading Brand also netted us Brian Skinner (who, while not great, has hung around the league), who we promptly traded for Charles Oakley.

If ever something in the NBA made Baby Jesus cry, it was Charles Oakley’s return run through Chicago.

by Sports2 on Nov 5, 2009 4:59 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Did a little research... I love goofy lists...

Bulls 2000s All-Bringback Team!!!

PG B.J. Armstrong
SG Scottie Pippen
SF Corie Blount
PF Charles Oakley
C Will Perdue

No word on whether they were voted captain.

by YaoPau on Nov 5, 2009 5:31 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Barf

With Pargo, Dickie Simpkins and Michael Ruffin off the bench. We’ve got a whole freaking team of Bulls retreads.

Who’d win in a match of Bulls double features vs. Bulls that were never really Bulls and never played a game here

PG Howard Eisley, Mike Wilks
SG Rodney Carney
SF Bruce Bowen
PF Aldridge
C Chris Mihm, Skinner

Even if we’re taking the second run versions of Pip, BJ and Oak, I think I like them over that crew. It’s close and pretty ugly though.

by Sports2 on Nov 5, 2009 7:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

don't forget Linton Johnson III

Bulls love guys ‘who know the orgnization’.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd take JR Smith at shooting guard over Carney...

Add Bonner for depth at PF…

Why isn't your friendly Bulls Blogger friendly?

by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 8, 2009 8:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How many wins would this team get?

More or less than our current Bulls team?

Composed of Bulls the org let go since Jordan:

PG: Duhon / Jamal Crawford
SG: Ben Gordon / JR Smith
SF: Artest / Sefalosha
PF: Brand / Bonner
C: Tyson Chandler / Brad Miller

by Diz on Nov 6, 2009 10:56 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I say more.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2009 11:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well it'll be hard to get Brand, Chandler, AND Jr Smith

Actually, maybe not that hard…

But more and more the reasoning for keeping Ben Gordon makes sense to me. When in doubt, keep young talent.

by YaoPau on Nov 6, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

His 26.8 PER really, really burns right now. Look at how well he's doing with a real offensive coach!

Makes me sad.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2009 2:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I was messing around on br's full court the other day

when I noticed that there’s never been a high-octane 3pt shooter… a guy who chucks up say, 12+ threes per 36 minutes. The closest thing to it is JR Smith at about 9.

Every year, a couple guys shoot 43+% on 3s. And the logical thing, since their eFG% is so astronomically high, would be to give them more shots. Chances are, since their 3pt% is so high, they’re passing up tougher 3s they could make 35-36% of the time, when the numbers say they should shoot.

And then it hit me that if any current NBA player could start the trend of the High Octane 3pt Shooter, it’s Ben Gordon. Not only is he a deadeye, but he can get his shot off in traffic. Looking back, it’s insane that he shot only 4.7 threes per game with the Bulls. He should’ve scored 30 a game.

by YaoPau on Nov 6, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

You should check out the number of three pointers that Danilo Gallinari has been hoisting.

It will make your 3-point-lovin’ heart sing.

Channing Frye’s also putting up a ton of threes so far and hitting at an absurd 51%.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2009 3:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

Channing Frye was not on my list of Potential Trend Setters. That’s one hell of a GM move if it keeps up.

by YaoPau on Nov 6, 2009 5:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Of the top-11 3pt fG % shooters in NBA history*...

…no one comes close in USG rate to Gordon, a few even sniff his 3-pt attempts per game and only Daniel Gibson comes close in 3 pt attempts per 36 minutes.

A good case could be made that Gordon is the best 3 pt shooter in the history of the NBA. (Considering the relatively short time the 3-pt shot’s been around, that shouldn’t be THAT surprising.) It’s ridiculous how underrated the Ben Gordon is by the Chicago Sports media, the Bulls fans and the general basketball media. Virtually the entire reason is because Jerry Reinsdorf dislikes Gordon and probably because he won 6th man of the year instead of rookie of the year.

If the Bulls had had more confidence in Gordon and promoted him more and he was named the 2004 NBA ROY, he’d still be here and his “heroics” would have been celebrated 10-fold.

*Gordon is currently 11th

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Nov 8, 2009 4:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He should have beaten Okafor for the award

The whole thing, of course, could have been avoided if they had just started Ben.

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Nov 8, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Jesus, I assumed it was someone capable...

They started:
Hinrich – 77 games
Duhon – 73 games
Davis – 62
Curry – 60
Deng – 45
Nocioni – 38

Are you fucking kidding me? 3 rookies—2 drafted below and a 3rd signed as a free agent—sart that many games before. If I were Gordon, I would’ve been asking to leave from the get-go. And people say he wasn’t “okay” with coming off of the bench. With his obvious betterness of his teammates, I can’t believe he wasn’t chirping constantly.

The Bulls organization sucks.

People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett

by tyger1147 on Nov 9, 2009 10:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't get it

He started the first 3 games of the year, and then benched him for the rest of the year. It’s like “Well, he hasn’t been Michael Jordan for the first three games of his career, so let’s start the even shorter 2nd round draft pick and bitch about how Ben’s short.”

Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.

by stupidgenius on Nov 9, 2009 6:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and Tyson Chandler could've been 6th man :)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 9, 2009 10:11 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He isn’t even close to the best 3pt shooter. He is a really really good 3pt shooter tho.

by C Smoove on Nov 9, 2009 8:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

im not saying its a bad thing, because you are my favorite poster here,

but i think you completely change your opinions on a monthly basis.

"What is going on up here?"
"I never know, man."

by TheMoon on Nov 6, 2009 3:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

that's why I have myself as my own favorite poster.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 6, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I like myself most (obviously), you second, and YaoPau and Scotter tied for third.

1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box

by fundamentallysound on Nov 6, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Guilty

The big part of it was my not understanding APM like I do now, and thus jumping to conclusions where there was gray area. So I think I’ve become less fickle lately. Though that opinion might change :)

I give myself a pass on Gordon though. My argument has been purely stat-based: that Gordon doesn’t make our team better going forward, and I still think the numbers show that. Last year, Tyger made a business-based argument: because Bosh/Wade can make more via sign-and trade, the best way to position ourselves for 2010 is to keep Gordon as a trade chip. I thought that was smart, and he’s looking even smarter now that Tyrus’ value has dropped.

by YaoPau on Nov 6, 2009 5:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Would this look any different with any other organization?

When your team is shitty, it is hard for anything to look right. Not to mention you are listing this as if there wasn’t a regime change and as if their aren’t any contributing contextual factors.

Aside from Brand and potentially Ben Gordon none of these losses really mean much of anything. We can make a fuss about Tyrus as a precedent but the bluster is pretty flaccid.

This is

by Super-Structure on Nov 8, 2009 6:35 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Also, I question the word game around "lost him for nothing"

I think you can let a player walk and have benefited by not paying him and not giving him minutes.

by Super-Structure on Nov 8, 2009 6:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A large part of the NBA behind the scenes game

is reshuffling talent and turning one asset into another asset…good teams do that to improve themselves, bad teams don’t…and then use the excuse of “well, we saved money”. It’s like compounding interest. It’s like your 401k. You don’t want to take money out of it early because in the long run you lose big. More than you could imagine. Make enough stupid moves and lose guys for nothing and you aren’t really saving money. You’ve lost high draft picks that represent millions of dollars over a 15 year period. You go from Chandler to Aaron Gray. Get a long enough string of moves that you don’t come out ahead on and you end up left with crap and no assets and that could take years of digging your way out of.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Nov 9, 2009 9:28 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Brilliant post!

(I just don’t give a crap about Matt Bonner – come on! That guys sucks! I would trade him for a cold beer)

by JustAnotherFan on Nov 9, 2009 8:16 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Great post Yao!

On another note, I just noticed that Gordon was 1-16 the other day. Doing his best John Salmons of late impression I see.

by lexdiamonds0730 on Nov 17, 2009 2:19 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Loved it

I wanna copy this and turn it into a life story kinda essay for school

by Option27 on Nov 18, 2009 2:55 PM CST reply actions   0 recs


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