Bucks 99, Bulls 97: a near ugly-win. By that I mean they were certainly ugly, but lost
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2009 11:47 PM CST
207 comments
| Pace | Eff | eFG | FT/FG | OREB% | TOr | |
| Chicago | 89.0 | 109.0 | 43.8% | 33.8 | 40.0 | 15.7 |
| Milwaukee | 111.2 | 47.8% | 12.0 | 37.7 | 11.2 |
Lindsey Hunter played the entire 4th quarter. That's basically all one needs to know when it comes to determining how an NBA game can be lost. The Bulls have major depth issues and it comes to a head when not only Hunter is required to play at all, or significant minutes, but he actually shares a backcourt with Jannero Pargo (0-3 in 11 minutes. As Barney Gumble once said to Lisa Simpson: "Go back to Russia!").
But, overall, Lindsey was an improbable +6 for the night, and though it may not have been old-man tricks but just random chance, his strategy of chucking the ball as hard as he could at the backboard so Joakim Noah could rebound and score was working. In one of the Bulls final possessions, Hunter took an ill-advised (dubbed so by me as it was a field-goal attempt) leaner that wound up back at the 3-point line for Salmons to hit one of the teams two threes of the night.
After the foul shot dance of late-game deficits, in their final possession the Bulls found themselves down two and Derrick Rose passed to a wide-open Brad Miller who front-rimmed a jumper. I guess it was a bit of irony that Miller for once wasn't the old Bull overused in the 2nd half, as that went to Hunter...yet he still didn't seem to have his legs under that shot. Again, Hunter played the entire 4th quarter. I criticize VDN for a lot of things, but failing in a 'ride the hot hand' strategy is not one of them. I think he's mostly done a good job of identifying his best guys and going to them, not who happens to be 'hot' that night. But he definitely stayed with what was working tonight, and the question is then was Hunter actually doing that well? Even if so, it just meant a higher likelihood that he'd return to dust.
But while Hunter was inexplicably on the floor on an offensive lineup substitution in the Bulls final try, another story is Rose passing instead of shooting in that posession. Him doing that doesn't bother me, what did was his complete disappearance in the first half, scoring 2 points in a game where he had to know he'd have to (even moreso than usual) pick up the scoring load for his undermanned team. I don't mind the mindset that brings an occasional deference on a given possession, but Rose seems to drift through entire stints on the floor. (With nobody else being a meanie and taking the ball from him either)
But Rose did recover and had himself a fairly stellar 2nd half, and outperformed Brandon Jennings in that span. In fact, if we're still sticking (and I'm trying to) to the mindset that only Rose/Deng/Noah truly matter anymore on this team, then it was a pretty good night. But the Bucks have 3 point shooting (including slight PFs, as Ilyasova and Warrick must be Skiles dream...though not quite Malik Allen dreamy), as well as a big they can devote possessions to in Andrew Bogut. The Bulls have no such options, and I don't need to go into their designed inefficiency after every single game. I almost feel bad when they came close in this one, that's how bad they look.
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Derrick Rose ranks 120th in the NBA in FTA per game
Astounding. Some of that is his fault. More of it is having a boob for a coach.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 30, 2009 11:49 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
How is it VDN's fault
Players win and lose games. PLAYERS, a coach can definitely help it along or set it back a little. But at the end of the day it comes down to the players executing. Give me a break, Rose not getting to the line is because of one person. Rose.
It's the way Derrick is used and coached
Yes he could be more assertive. He needs to be. But how many times does he give up the ball and not get it back? That’s not all him.
I love that tough sink-or-swim love that is Bulls development
maybe by next year VDN can tell the media he’s never seen Rose run the floor once in his career.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 12:14 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Thank you
I’m so sick of the notion that we should draft players and expect them to be pros right away. Sure, for every Tyrus there’s a Taj who comes into the league at 24 and contributes mediocrity for the duration of his career without any improvement. But it’s just ridiculous to me that we spend no time trying to develop guys like Tyrus, Derrick and Noah — we expect them to do it on their own in the offseason!
Vinny can’t even design a system or gameplan that fits the strengths of our best players. It’s getting embarassing.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 1, 2009 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
desiging a sytem and gameplan
is advanced coaching! Vinny is still on the utilizing timeouts chapter.
How can you not watch the game
and want to punch Vinny in the face. No offensive plays, terrible defense and awful substitutions are all constants with this team. How many times is Vinny going to call the "Derrick, go stand in the corner so Pargo/Hinrich can run a pick and pop with Brad Miller? Vinny, or perhaps management, doesn’t understand that this season is not about winning, it’s about polishing up our crown jewel so that one day this team can bring another trophy to the UC. Vinny needs to stop coaching to win games and focus on developing the young talent, no matter 1)how counter-intuitive that may seem & 2) that Vinny won’t be around to reap the benefits of an improved Rose and Noah.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
What offense do the Bulls run?
I’ve seen:
iso for Salmons
pick and pop with miller
some Rose attacking off the dribble
Deng finding a spot for a midrange jumper (do they run off ball screens? I haven’t noticed)
…and actually some Deng post-up plays this season (surprising)
I see an offense that too often treats Rose as just another player and doesn’t seek to exploit the advantage he has over his man when he has the ball.
Do they do anything else often that I’m missing?
by hitlesswonder on Dec 1, 2009 12:25 AM CST up reply actions
they do some high post stuff with Miller and Noah at the top of the key
but they have been getting away from it as Miller has begun to deteriorate in front of our eyes
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 1, 2009 12:47 AM CST up reply actions
If we had some real
Perimeter/3 pt threats, we could run more plays….
It’s hard to run plays when we have nobody who can score inside with any form of a post up play (it’s all put backs or running that gets us inside points, there’s not a guy who has a glimpse of NBA ready back to the basket bball…). I know teams all want more of that, but I don’t think there’s a team in the NBA who has less of that than Chicago….
And when we have no 3 pt shooting either, it’s extremely tough….
This isn’t on Vinny fully (I mean the Gray and Miller time in the Jazz game was horrendous), but Pax-Gar have to stop plugging with guys who they like and don’t expect to play but coach from the sidelines….
To say Rose played poorly after last game was ridiculous. Sure he quieted down after that 3rd and start of the 4th quarter play, but that was one of his best ever games (top 10) since he’s been in the league….
The play for Brad at least got a wide open shot to a guy who can hit them….that’s not the coaches fault.
Would I have rather seen Derrick try to take one? Perhaps, but Brad had the best chance with a wide open look….whereas given our lack of 3 pt shooting to spread the floor and inside the paint game, All Milwaukee had to do was jam in the 15-in range and the Bulls would have been stuck….
Still the depth was a huge issue last night….
Rose-Noah-Deng looked good, Salmons decent, 5-9 not so much….
Sadly....through thick and thin....
Don't forget this VDN stunt
Where he yells at opposing players while they shoot.
If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.
by Chi 'Till I Die on Dec 1, 2009 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
LOL
WTH was that? He looked like a total ass in that clip. Seriously, what coach does that?
"I'm in the Hall already, on the wall already, I'm a work of art I'm a Warhol already"-Jay Z
A desperate one
The Bulls were up 6 when QRich takes that shot.
But Vinny may have learned to yell while your opponent is shooting from General Patton. He was well known to yell “Kraut!” whenever he was taking fire from Rommel’s divisions.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 1, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
A good deal of coaches were players
but you don’t see them doing goofy stuff like that. If he’s guarding the guy himself fine otherwise that’s pretty bush league.
"I'm in the Hall already, on the wall already, I'm a work of art I'm a Warhol already"-Jay Z
I don't think that's true and I'm not that impressed by Rose
I don’t think Rose is a particularly good player at this point in his career. But he clearly has a fairly rare size/strength/speed combo on offense — even in the NBA his athleticism stands out and he has shown the ability to get to the rim in traffic. He doesn’t try to do that enough, but it’s not all on him.
I’m confident that there are coaches that would make Rose’s abilities into a consistent offensive weapon and that getting to the line would follow. Seriously, why isn’t what Rose can do on the court the focus of this offense from the first minute of the game onward? I don’t know what VDN is trying to make happen out there, but I don’t see Rose being the focus of the offense all that much.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 1, 2009 12:19 AM CST up reply actions
did I?
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 12:14 AM CST up reply actions
and Kurt.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
Its not like he does...
…if the Bulls are planning to sign that max free agent this Summer.
I almost agree with yfbb, almost, in that I think the only ones who matter on this roster are Rose and Noah…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
And to quote Derrick
This seems like I’m ready the same story every day now . . . .
“I try to get a feel for the game first,” Rose said. “Then I step it up. But I have to find a way to force myself from the beginning.”
You're right.
He says the same stuff all of the time. Like someone in the game thread said, he’s gonna have a big ass-fro if he sticks to his promise.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
What's frustrating is he keeps saying stuff like
“I have to force myself” or “I’m going to be more aggressive” or “I need to attack from the start.” A huge part of this is on VDN. If the Bulls are 4 minutes into the game and Derrick is standing around doing nothing and hasn’t attacked the rim once, VDN needs to call a TO and yell at Derrick to get in the lane or, better yet, call a play that involves him driving to the basket. The other part of this is obviously on Derrick, as he keeps saying the same stuff over and over but he rarely actually follows through with what he says in actual games. Tonight, for instance, he floated through 3/4 of the game, dominated for a good stretch of the 4th quarter, and then faded off into oblivion once again, only to see his team lose to a mediocre (yes, mediocre. screw their record) Bucks team. If you were Vinny, wouldn’t you be calling plays for Derrick and demanding he get in the lane EVERY TIME down the court? Is it that hard? Am I missing something? If I’m Gar Forman and I see this continual floating around by my franchise player and the moronic coach I hired is doing nothing about it, I’m having a sitdown with him to make sure that he gets things straight. Kind of like what Pax did with Vinny last year when he was benching Derrick down the stretch for Captain Kurt (lol). And if Vinny’s not listening, then I can his ass. I honestly don’t care a whole lot about the wins and losses right now, but more than anything it pains me to see a possible transcendent, franchise-saving talent being completely wasted by an inept, bumbling organization that seems to have no idea how to handle the very heart of his future. If Derrick can’t push himself, then he needs someone else to do it. Clearly, that person isn’t Vinny, so in my opinion, he needs to go NOW before Derrick’s growth is severely stunted. Otherwise this entire franchise is going to be screwed for a very, very long time.
I take those quotes a bit differently.
To me, its evidence that there’s no structure (or logic) to what they’re doing offensively. Its like VDN is just rolling the ball out and telling the guys to go play. You can get away with that if you have a few guys who can get and make their own shot. On the other hand, when you’re the point guard whose also you’re teams best offensive weapon, you have to balance being selfish and looking for your own with distributing the ball to your teammates.
Being selfish and looking for your own shot is infinitely harder if you don’t have perimeter shooters to space the floor, a big who at least occasionally can attract attention in the post, and/or someone who finishes plays well at the basket (eg the opposite of no-hands Taj). Granted, if Derrick had 3pt range, it would certainly help his cause, but how many 20 yr old players who didn’t come into the league with 3pt range, suddenly find it by their second year.
The only thing Derrick’s performance proves is that he’s not great enough to overcome the attention he now gets from opposing teams, the deficiencies of the offensive players around him, and the system (or lack thereof) their currently running and yet still be both a productive and efficient player.
That’s what makes DWade so great. He achieves his production and efficiency in spite of the attention he warrants. However, his coaching staff at least understands the attention he gets and devises ways to space or move the defense in ways most optimal to Wade. Rose gets none of that. He’s going to sink or swim on his own with a bad cast of characters to boot.
"Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen." - Michael Jordan
But you need a decent TEAM to make that work
If the rest of your team is inept offensively, having a point guard drive to the basket continually just breaks him down.
Even DWade, who everybody references, experienced that a couple of years ago when his supporting cast was weak. At least he has SOME offensive threats, and athletic bigs or three point threats to help him out.
The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing.
Blaise Pascal, Bulls Fan
shoot that derrick!
why did derrick pass it off to miller??!? :(
i watched immediately thinking “noooo!!” derrick should have taken that shot.
damn…hard to watch the 5th L in A row. this one at least was interesting and at the end a nail biter.
That was VDN's fault...
I’m serious. If Vinny wanted Rose to take that final shot irregardless of what happened (being double teamed, one of the two being Bogut who just owned him on last possession), then Brad Miller should not have been on the floor. Joakim should be on the floor in that case because he is most likely to salvage Rose’s miss. Clearly VDN wanted Miller out there in case Bogut came over to help and he did. Nobody was in 10 feet of Miller when he caugt the pass. He needs to hit that.
Rose being passive in the first half on the other hand, that’s on Rose.
We suck.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
The Bulls shrink like a dick in cold water.
We (BaB community) do not suck.
The Bulls’ organization/team currently sucks.
"Then you need a center so if the ball gets stuck between the rim and backboard he can reach up and knock it loose instead of having to spend 15 minutes trying to hit it with a broom stick." – Sam Smith
by Granny Waiters on Dec 1, 2009 6:10 PM CST up reply actions
yfbb
you closed comments – i had a longish post about how noah’s lack of offensive game meant bogut could play well off him and zone the paint. it affects rose’s willingness to drive, leading to more one on one offense and lower percentage shots and scoring.
i love noah and i know everybody else does. but that’s the facts.
i think the team needs to run more and force the issue on drives in the half court. eventually it will pay off. but i don’t know if they have the players, if they’ll ever get that mentality.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
That's a great point.
Bogut pretty much camped out in the paint and formed a wall that Rose had difficulty getting around. Hopefully Noah can keep improving on his jumper as he has been, otherwise Derrick is going to continue having trouble getting past the Boguts, Perkinses, Shaqs, and Dwight Howards of the NBA (see: last play of the game tonight, where Bogut stepped up on Rose and forced him to pass. He could have still shot it, of course, but it probably would have been an awkward floater that may not have had a great chance of going in).
Noah wasn't on the floor on the last play of the game.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Dec 1, 2009 7:45 AM CST up reply actions
yeah i was surprised to see Noah's stats
it looked like he got owned out there way more than he did.
His interior defense over this stretch of 5 losses has been pretty poor. Oden, Boozer, Gasol, Nene, Bogut – what decent big guy hasn’t had a big game against the Bulls. Maybe they need to give him more help down there. Its something I looked out for tonight and he was just letting Bogut get anywhere he wanted on the post.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 1, 2009 12:45 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah.
He definitely needs more help even though he’s bulked up. Not many NBA centers can guard guys like Oden, Nene, and Bogut one-on-one. They’re all straight-up beasts. It will be nice when Tyrus comes back so there’s at least the constant threat of a weak-side shot block in the back of these guys’ minds whenever they’re trying to back down Noah. Both Taj and Miller are fairly worthless when it comes to helping Noah on defense, so it’s hard to really put too much blame on the guy. At least he’s cleaning up the glass like an absolute boss. I feel bad for Noah out there. When Deng isn’t on the court, it’s literally almost like he’s the only guy out there rebounding. If Deng weren’t such a great rebounder for a SF, we would be getting killed on the glass every night.
It's a correct criticism of Noah, Joakim is very good because he plays to his limitations and understands how to not stretch beyond that.
Defensively, the lack of Tyrus and a solid defensive backup is really showing. Taj burst onto the scene with a lot of hustle and defensive IQ, but the more game film on the guy, the easier it is for teams to pick him apart.
And what the hell is it with Chicago where big men just plummet in production? Brad Miller was an absolute linchpin of the team last season, I mean without him the Bulls lose to the Celtics in 5 games. Now? It’s just a walking disaster.
As for Rose, he’s just beginning to emulate the kid in high school who coasts through classes and just pulls all-nighters to pull B’s. Yes, “getting into the flow” is a valid reason to not be so aggressive, getting teammates involved is good. But, at some point doesn’t Derrick just look around and say to himself “Holy shit these guys are brutal I’m just going to do whatever I want and the franchise is going to sink or swim.” He should be spending time with Deng and Noah, and the rest of the team shouldn’t even exist to him. None of them have any relevance for his career. It’s like Jordan’s rookie year when he found out his teammates were coke addicts and decided to become a lone wolf.
/end depressing rant.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 1, 2009 1:37 AM CST up reply actions
We can hope....
that Tyrus brings improved interior defense, but all I remember is that Tyrus/Noah lineups were awful last year. Granted Noah has Improved, but who knows if Tyrus has learned to play solid d yet. And i don’t mean occasional blocked shots.
by BigBabyCollin on Dec 1, 2009 6:03 AM CST up reply actions
it's not even criticism, ozzie
at least it’s not meant to be. there aren’t too many perfect players.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
I just wanna know...
when they landed the # 1 pick last year… could you ever imagine he’d be passing to Lindsey Hunter and to Brad Miller to win the game?
Seriously I would have never believed it if you said Hunter would ever play the two next to Rose…. I just don’t understand anything anymore….
Oh and JJ was the ‘’ready to contribute now pick’’ along with Taj, wouldn’t play in a game when 40% of your team either sucks or is injured and sucks..
I really just can’t even tell you honestly how disappointed I am with this organization…. I mean… you can’t make this shit up.
Seriously I…… feel like they just draft the player and then just walk away and let VDN take over.. there is no leadership or…. the only thing I can think of is….
They have to be tanking, the Bulls are tanking right? They improve their lottery position and a 2010 and fire VDN.. thats the plan right?
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
by SoulEater7 on Dec 1, 2009 12:38 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
But Pax told us they were building around Derrick!
…only to immediately let the one guy who played best with him go. Now the kid has clogged driving lanes and no one else to take the opposing team’s defensive pressure off of him. Yeesh.
by Illini15 on Dec 1, 2009 12:42 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
does anyone in the Chicago media realize the Bulls still play in Chicago?
Has any team gotten a bigger pass on losing than the Bulls? Maybe the Hawks but who cares that was just a crusty owner… OOOoooh thats right JR owns some of comcast thats right.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
rec'd for pointing out exactly what the Bulls have built around Rose
It’s ridiculous that the backcourt was Rose and Hunter in the 4th. What other team in the league has surrounded a number one pick with that?
Moreover, deciding to stock the team with bad players hasn’t even lead to the Bulls having the cap space for a max offer next year.
Truly, I think we are seeing some of the most incompetent team management in the NBA.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 1, 2009 12:53 AM CST up reply actions
Whats even more disappointing is that Paxson should have been fired... WHERE WOULD THIS BE WITHOUT ROSE?
Could you imagine that? Had they gotten the ninth pick like they should have? I mean Gar Forman? Who the fuck is that? Thats the guy who put this roster together.. Hunter, Gray, and Pargo? They replaced a unexperienced GM with an even more unexperienced GM who brought in VDN the most random coach ever.
Gar Forman the same guy who made Deng super rich?
Yeah there is no fucking hope!
When I think of that it pretty much puts things into perspective…. this is a limp dick organization with nobody at the wheel who just props Derrick Rose up and says haha fuck you! They’re living off of last season playoff series still.
They should be tried in criminal courts.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
If we didn't luck into Derrick, then we'd pretty much be the Knicks or Nets right now.
With an even worse, more pathetic 2010 plan. That’s terrifying.
I'm kind of afraid that Bulls management hasn't even realized they can't offer a max contract at this point.
Are they aware that Salmons probably won’t opt out? Do they realize that – if this is the case – they’re going to have to part with their beloved Kurt to even have a shot at a FA? Do you think they have any clue? I’m kind of serious here. It’s scary how incompetent they seem to be. I’m still amazed they pulled off the Noc/Gooden for Salmons/Miller trade. Talk about an anomaly.
dude!
I’m honestly at a turning point with this organization.
I really might not even watch much anymore… I don’t even record games anymore.. it’s sad.
I don’t think hey have a clue. Why? (in no order)
1. Kirk over BG?
2. Deng getting that huge contract
3. Missing on draft picks
4. Paxson freaking out
5. unable to make big time trades
6. VDN
7. benching draft picks and not developing them
8. this roster
9. Mike D’Antoni
10. 2001 FA bust
11. 10 years of bad.
If they whiff on a 2010 I might be done with these clowns.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
Relax...
Remember year 2 with Lebron in Cleveland, he was passing to Jeff McInnis (2nd on the team in minutes), Ira Newble and Robert Traylor…two years later they lost in the finals.
The point is it takes time to build a team around a player, especially when (like the Cavs’ Ilgauskas) you only have one guy one your roster who will stick.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
OT- but on the BaB Game preview sign up sheet
yfbb was suppose to do the game preview today? and a “Kevin Featherline” is doing the preview for Wednesday’s game against Detroit. Is this serious?
"You can't give up hope just because it's hopeless! You gotta hope even more, and cover your ears and go 'bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla!'"
heh, no.
it’s an open spreadsheet, so people can mess it up however. I figured most wouldn’t have the energy to do so.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
VDN says the Bulls ran his play
Bulls coach Vinny Del Negro said he called the pick-and-roll for Rose and that it was executed correctly. “Brad got a good look. They double teamed Derrick. Derrick swung and he made the right basketball play,” the coach said. “The percentages will go in your favor if you make the right play.” But not this time.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=291130015
And Bogut was standing right in front of Rose when he passed the ball to Miller. He could have forced up a shot, but Miller had a wide-open look
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 1, 2009 1:04 AM CST reply actions
Now that I've cooled down,
I agree that it was a good play in theory – and it was a very nice pass by Rose – but you can’t just bring an ice-cold (and now over-the-hill, quickly-declining) Miller off the bench and expect him to hit that shot. I don’t care how many times he’s made it before. Why not just run that pick-and-roll with Deng? I’d much rather him shoot that shot than anyone else. Plus, he was having a damn good night offensively.
I freaked out when I saw he had placed Miller in the game
the guy hadn’t played for 20 minutes. To hear that VDN than called a play that would likekly result in Miller getting the ball (because you have to believe the Bucks are going to double Rose in that situation) for a jumper is kind of mind boggling.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 1, 2009 1:15 AM CST up reply actions
this team still doesn't have a bread and butter play.
I hated this call. Get something driving to the basket. Don’t make it that easy for Rose to differ. Plus didn’t VDN burn all his timeouts?
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
What sucks is
that we can’t even really run clear-outs for Rose anymore. Last year, we could run a complete ISO and surround the 3-point line with BG, Salmons (who was shooting 3s at a ridiculous clip), Kurt (who was also shooting well from the outside), and Miller (who was good last year and made 3s), or hell, even Tim Thomas when he was on the team. Now, we can’t really run a clear-out at the end of the game for him because Gordon and TiT are gone, Kurt and Salmons can’t hit threes anymore, and Miller’s game/shooting touch has completely fallen off a cliff. It’s really sad to see. I really wish we could have kept a guy like Byars for these types of situations. It’s almost like management refuses to believe that they’ve put a team together that has absolutely no outside shooters. How depressing.
by Illini15 on Dec 1, 2009 1:24 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
to me it's either two things.. either
the Bulls have set VDN up to fail so they can fire him or they’re just completely dumb.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
Smurf I tried to make the point as I saw the play to Khalid el Amin and a few others
Rose was not at fault for the pass, the person at fault is Vinny. For some reason he has this deep trust in Brad at the end of games to be some sort of clutch shooter. Brad shouldn’t have been in the game. But you want to call him up for the last play like this is baseball and he’s the closing pitcher! Salmons just hit two buckets, a 3 and a driving lay up, Rose had a good quarter, they were better options, but no, you want to bring Miller off the bench to shoot the game tying shot? Rose played a good game, he’s a point guard, he’s not a SG, his job his to get his teamates involved and Rose did that. He had good passes on the break that didn’t get finished, he tried to attack Jennings early in the game but his shot was off so he passed more and played great defense onJennings. This was one of Rose’s better games of the season, and Vinny should have gone with Rose and told him to get us to overtime, instead he goes with old, cold, Brad Miller. Vinny blew this one, Rose gets a pass from me! Rose is only in his second year to, believe me, he won’t pass off too many more last second game tying shots, he didn’t have to shoot last year, but that’s going to change!
Who else should he run a pick/pop with?
Noah and Taj couldn’t do it.
Miller’s one of the better offensive options on the team. I suppose playing him ‘cold’ isn’t the best idea, but he still should be dependable in that situation.
If you’re saying that Miller should be deemed unusable in such a situation, that’s not on Vinny but his bosses who assembled the roster.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
EXACTLY
I mean it’s been Skiles (a good coach) and now Vinny a young coach who could use a year or two of assistancy still, but who at least seems to someday be a good coach….and those 2 did terrible with this team….
It’s on Pax and Gar why we suck….they’ve got some good players, but they choose to fill those players with crap crap and more crap, and 95 year old veterans…
Sadly....through thick and thin....
The real crime was the play VDN called
The reason Bogut was there to impede Rose was because Brad came to set a pick as Derrick crossed mid court. After this many games, VDN still hasn’t realized that pick ‘n rolls with Derrick and big guys (Brad, Noah, Taj, etc.) only invites the defending bigs to double or crowd Derrick. Bogut wasn’t worried about Brad, especially when you consider he was cold and hadn’t really been productive all night.
Since Derrick would be receiving the ball in the backcourt with an opportunity to gain full steam heading up the court, he should have cleared everyone out so Derrick could attack one-on-one with a chance to get off his own shot.
FWIW, the reason Derrick eventually got going was b/c Skiles made a stupid decision to go small without leaving a shot blocker (Bogut) in the game. That left one fewer big in the paint and no shot blockers to help contest on Rose. I don’t know why people think Derrick all of a sudden decided to be more aggressive. He simply took advantage of a smaller man (Jennings) guarding him with few impediments (shot blockers and bigs with lenth) to clogs the paint.
"Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen." - Michael Jordan
Fact
I like the big man pick and rolls on teams where you can really spread the flor with everyone else. The high pick and roll with Rose and Noah or Miller is great with three point shooters everywhere else so no help can come.
The Bulls should try running what the Celtics used so often against the Bulls in the playoffs. Run a pick and pop play with Rose and Deng (ala Rono and Pierce). If you force the switch, Rose has a slower defender on him, but likely not one who is so huge that the shot block is such a worry. Deng will have a smaller defender he can shoot over, especially with that midrange game working.
Rose needs more opportunities to isolate against guys who are much slower. I think running the pick and roll with Noah /Miller and Rose crowds things. Leave Noah by the basket where he does what he does best, cleaning up the mess! If Rose can blow by his defender on the pick and roll with Deng, Noah’s defender has to either concede the layup or help off of Noah and he has an easy dunk. With Miller in, you could play him more in the short corner area on the strong side. Again, if Rose blows by, Miller has an easy 15 footer (although that’s been a struggle).
Agreed....you're preaching to the choir
They actually did that (pick ’n roll with Rose and Deng) a couple of times yesterday and once or twice in the Blazers game. If they made that the focus and really worked on it in practice, I think the offense would be much better off than it is currently.
"Some people want it to happen, some wish it would happen, others make it happen." - Michael Jordan
The trend of horrid defensive play continues
The stereotype of slow-paced games is that of a “defensive slugfest” but someone who’s watched the Bulls play this year would see something different. This is a team that generally seems to control the pace, slow the game down, and still play some of the league’s most inefficient defense.
Tonight’s opponent, the Bucks, generally has a 93.9 pace. We’ve got a 92.1 pace. Last night’s game pace was 89.
Their typical ORtg is 104.6, but they managed to lay out 111.2 against us.
We started out the first few games playing good D, but it’s been seriously downhill, especially up front and to a lesser extent from Derrick. Tonight I’ll point out that although Rose had a very quiet offensive stretch, however, so did Mr. 50 point game Brandon Jennings.
I think man on man, Rose played Jennings well
I think the perimeter players Salmons and Deng shot well, (too much, but well) and Hunter gave the Bulls good valuable minutes. He’s the one that tipped the ball to Salmons for that 3 at the end, and Hunter hit the only other 3. The Bulls got hurt inside by Bogut, and outside with Milwaukee’s 3pt. shooting and our getting hammered on the boards!
Anybody else at this game?
There was a section of about 30-40 people that were on their feet and yelling the whole game. It seemed like a college game. Everytime Noah took a free throw they sang, “Dude looks like a lady.” It was kind of amazing.
I've never seen any group at an NBA game act quite like this...
And they’re the Bucks for goodness sake. They’re attendance numbers are rotten.
I wish you had strangled the "flatulent horn" player.
Anybody else at this game?
"Then you need a center so if the ball gets stuck between the rim and backboard he can reach up and knock it loose instead of having to spend 15 minutes trying to hit it with a broom stick." – Sam Smith
by Granny Waiters on Dec 1, 2009 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
That snare drum was annoyed as well.
Aren’t there rules about this! It’s not a college basketball game! I never want to get excited from / pissed off from fans! NBA crowds need always be sitting, unless the home team has just gone on a big run, it’s near the end of the game, or YMCA plays over the PA. It’s just common courtesy people!
We need to bring in somebody short term!!!!
maybe like A.I.? or some solid garud…
go watch the clippers then. theyre just about as good as a team that starts those two
by sin on Dec 1, 2009 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
You know the Clippers have a better record than the Bulls
I think you meant to write Nets or T-Wolves. Then your comment would make sense.
Bulls desperately need Tyrus back. Just don't have the size to matchup
I guess fans won’t be happy till Rose is scoring 30 points a game. What do people want him to be? A top scorer ala Wade, or a combo pg who can score and facilitate like DWill?
The 5 straight losses all fall on the lack of front court play, lack of SG play, and lack of bench scoring. It’s clear that Noah and Gibson had a terrible road trip. Even yesterday, in Noah’s first double double, Bogut outplayed him.
There were only two players who looked like they belonged on the court against the elite western conference teams during the road trip, and that was Rose and Deng.
noah also had a double double
against the lakers.
but agreed, taj’s true colors really came out here. looking forward to seeing tyrus get back.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
oh and in the win
against sac. so he had 3 double doubles out of 6.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
I meant to say during the losses, but was surprised to hear that he ended up
with a double double in the Laker game where he looked totally over matched.
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 1, 2009 9:06 AM CST up reply actions
he actually ended up with a decent line against the lakers
6-12 for 12 pts (missed all 3 of his FTs), 15 reb, 4 steals, 2 blocks, 4 assists. also had 4 TOs though.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
I don't think you can say Bogut outplayed him
But you can see that Bogut has skills that Noah does not.
Overall they probalby were equally effective against each other, but Bogut’s play helps ease the offense for the Bucks.
Sadly....through thick and thin....
Noah had a fantastic stat line
35 minutes, 22 points, 15 boards, 3 assists, 3 steals, and 4 blocks.
Noah had a good game and a great rebounding game, but Bogut was clearly the star for the Bucks.
by RogersPark Kris on Dec 1, 2009 9:09 AM CST up reply actions
That's why I said I got the sentiment
Noah’s game is all hustle and IQ. Bogut has natural offensive abilities….hence he can be the clear VISUAL star because you can “see” what he does without really being like, ooh those stats were solid from Noah, I mean he looked good, but not what 17-16 and other solid stats he put up….
There were quite a few times though where Noah’s defense was horrid—lack of moving his feet in the paint, but that’s probably more cause of being tired, considering how solid overall he played…..and that’s why it’s so frustrating Aaron Gray’s back instead of I don’t know a Ike Diogu for 300-500K less….there were many others too.
You’d think after watching Gray completely suck for 2 years that Chicago would have had enough, especially when our other off the bench big is Miller, a better Gray who’s actually quicker….
Oh well..
Sadly....through thick and thin....
It's still a lack of coaching
How many times did we double team Bogut in the post? I counted two. One of those was a Salmons foul as Bogut just spun right into him. Is it not in the scouting report that Bogut struggles out of a double team?
Tyrus sure would help here. Bogut’s moves can be denied with the weak side help from Thomas as he can cheat off Ilyasova.
The really bad news is the defensive side of the court is what keeps Vinny afloat. If he’s losing this side of the game then he’s in big trouble. We’ve got a weak schedule to close the month so there are must wins games at home. Remember last year’s home loss to the Wolves?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
so i missed the game
but im assuming that at the end before the last play, vinny didnt have any timeouts left??
I'm cuckoo for Kukoc!!!
no, that play as out of a timeout.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
oh ok...
good to see vinny learning… hopefully he’ll learn to not play hunter the entire quarter and play that one guy with johnson on his jersey… remember that guy coach?
I'm cuckoo for Kukoc!!!
Except that JJ's terrible right now too
I’d love for us to have a little lead for once this year and then work on developing our new rookies…hear that Gar? Your team’s depth sucks.
Sadly....through thick and thin....
but serously
not giving him any minutes, after he just had his best game as a professional against the jazz… and giving those minutes to hunter…
I'm cuckoo for Kukoc!!!
He did?
I watched the Jazz but was mostly in a depressedly drunken state….because we suck so bad….
I didn’t notice enough I guess.
I agree normally on Hunter, but Lindsay actually to me played reasonably well (not as well as King and Funk wanted us to think) but he played reasonably well….
Why Taj plays so much when he’s crappy and JJ plays so little is puzzling I guess….even if Taj is more ready, when he’s playing for crap, he shouldn’t be playing….slide Deng to 4 in those games and try to force a little JJ in at the 3….
Actually as I’ve said, especially with Tyrus out, I’d much rather see our minute spread go:
Rose 39, Pargo (gulp) 3, Hunter (6)
Salmons 30, Pargo (gulp again) 8, Hunter 4, Deng 6
Deng 27, Salmons 8, JJ 16
Noah 25, Deng 10, Taj 13
Miller (gulp right now) 25, Noah 13, Taj 7, Gray (oh my god we’re awful): 3
Total Minutes (Tyrus and Kirk out edition):
Rose 39
Pargo 11
Hunter 10
Salmons 38
Deng 40
Johnson 16
Noah 38
Miller 25
Taj 20
Gray 3
Total Minutes 240…. Note: Pargo’s minutes at 10 aren’t terrible, but that’s if he plays every 3 games…but we’re horribly thin.
Once Kirk’s back:
Rose 32, Kirk 16
Kirk 18, Salmons 15, Pargo 10, Rose 5
Deng 24, Salmons 20, Johnson 4
Noah 25, Deng 13, Taj 10
Miller 30, Noah 13, Taj 5
Lineup (Tyrus still out):
Rose-37
Kirk-34
Salmons-35 (bench scorer)
Pargo-10
Deng-37
JJ-4
Noah-38
Miller-30
Taj-15
Note: Miller has to play more as we manuever around to lessen the guard depth issues….because of Kirk. Kirk should still be a PG, but oh well, we’re marketing him as a combo because of Rose and because we kept him…..we desperately need firepower offensively off the bench, and Salmons can do that (and plays D), might help get him on track. Not playing Gray or overusing Taj is the plus here. Deng’s length and versatility can help more than overplaying the surprisingly decent but should be at best 9th man on a good team Taj. Johnson’s been disappointing, but should play some every day in pieces while Tyrus is out and if he starts figuring things out he takes some 3/4 time and Miller loses more time. Brad hopefully will play better starting the game….it’s a shame, but with T2 out we need him….
At Full Strength: Tyrus Back:
Rose-35, Kirk 13
Kirk-20, Salmons 25, Pargo 3, Rose plays more on the bad pargo days…
Deng 30, Salmons 10, Tyrus 8
Tyrus 27, Noah 6, Deng 6, Taj 9
Noah 30, Miller 18 (Miller plays more if out of his funk, and Taj, Deng, Noah get a few minutes less).
Rose-35
Kirk-33
Salmons -35 (6th man since we need scoring off the bench)
Pargo -3
Deng-36
Tyrus 35
Noah-36
Taj 9
Miller 18
Man if only we had kept BG, or I don’t know used the Gray money for someone who can play and costs less or at least has upside….
Johnson works in practice and plays in blowouts either way if any….
Pargo in this scenario might play less or not all all some games, but play a quarter in others….cuz if he’s hot he’s good….
Oh well…we suck and need Tyrus.
Bulls have the athlete’s and have enough ball handling that we should just frigging give small ball a real chance….hell we can play with Tyrus healthy 6 ball handler’s strong: Rose, Kirk, Salmons, Deng, Tyrus, Noah….and can be passy adding Miller to that mix….
We have no real good girth down low (which is necessary against some teams), and we have no back to the basket talents at any capacity (every team has a little)….
We should just try to really run and gun….and this would be our best chance, with the BG less crappy roster we have…and no deep shooters.
Sadly....through thick and thin....
No it wasn't...
Vinny didn’t have any timeouts and pushed the ball up the floor off of a made free throw.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
you're correct
(I saw your comment on accident, I swear).
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions
well then i take back what i said
about him atleast learning not to make that mistake again..
I'm cuckoo for Kukoc!!!
Is Luol Deng the Bulls be trade chip?
I’m ready to see them tank it.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
*best
anyone else ready for the Bernie Bickerstaff era?
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
I didn't see the game
But from reading how horrible most of the team was why on earth didn’t James Johnson play at all?
"I'm in the Hall already, on the wall already, I'm a work of art I'm a Warhol already"-Jay Z
Great question
If there was any game he could play in this was it. The Bucks played a lot of small ball and Vinny matched it, but never with James Johnson.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 1, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
totally agree
i asked this question at the end of the game. hunter gets 22 min and jj got 0 min. with taj in fou trouble only playing 18 min while three of our starters played 43+ min.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Danny Bernstein
how bad must first-rounder James Johnson be that he couldn’t get onto the floor? The Bulls have only a handful of healthy bodies, and that — combined with road-weariness — allowed for Lindsey Hunter to play 22 minutes. If you can’t trust Johnson to eat some clock against Ersan Ilyasova, Hakim Warrick or Carlos Delfino, you may be better off letting him run with the NBDL’ers in Iowa.
http://www.670-thescore.com/blog/2009/12/01/dinardo-hub-and-more/
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
Theory time!
Reading that quote, it dawned on me that any roster that’s not a championship-caliber roster should focus every action on one thing: raising your roster’s perceived value around the league. That means playing your undervalued guys and benching/trading your established non-core players. It’s not a new idea by any stretch, but it’s one the Bulls haven’t grasped.
Here’s my thinking: our best bet is to trade Hinrich/Pargo/Salmons/Miller for picks/prospects, then play a lineup of Rose/JJ/Deng/Tyrus/Noah, with Taj/Gray as our 6th/7th men. I realize JJ isn’t a SG. We haven’t had SGs all season.
If everyone sucks, Tyrus/JJ/Taj/Gray will have trade value around the league simply because they’re young and have played minutes, and we’ll go into 2010 with a ton of cap space, a Rose/Noah/Deng core, a high 1st round pick, the picks we got for Hinrich/Salmons/Miller, and a handful of trade chips. That’s an attractive package for a FA.
If we instead win 40 games and sneak into the playoffs, we’ve got a very good core (Rose/Noah/Deng/JJ/Tyrus?) with more trade value that we could swing part of for better talent down the line. Again, attractive to FAs.
It’s a win-win. Obviously it’s not at all realistic, no team firesales when they’re competitive, but the general rule of thumb should hold. There’s no justification to playing Lindsey over JJ. Bernstein’s guessing JJ stinks, but nobody knows that for sure, as the Bulls have screwed up talent for years. And regardless, playing Lindsey doesn’t improve our probability of winning a title down the line as much as JJ could. Soon the same could be said for playing Miller over Taj/Gray, or Pargo over JJ. The differences in probability might be tiny. But screw up those small differences year after year like the Bulls have and it adds up.
by YaoPau on Dec 1, 2009 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 7 recs
Reccd
We just need Tyrus back….why if we’re seemingly going to just let him go for nothing didn’t we trade him? I don’t know…stupid org.
Sadly....through thick and thin....
I jest, but maybe we could trade Hunter to a competitor if we play him consistently
Less hysterically funny, I would think Miller would have actual value to a team that projected itself to go deep in the playoffs.
Problem is, we can’t take any salary back for him. An expiring contract and a future pick wouldn’t be that terrible though, would it?
Except I still believe we’ve got a better chance of bringing in a FA if we’ve got a “team on the rise” motif going for us, and not a “team that tanked the final two months and now has an extra late-round rookie” motif.
I think it'd be more "team that has a ton of talent"
Let’s say all we’re able to do is trade Hinrich. (I realize this is a stretch already). But we could re-sign Tyrus and have Rose/Noah/Deng/Tyrus/JJ going forward, with all five getting big minutes by the end of the season, showcased to the league. Then add in your extra-late round rookie (who cares), and add in your top 10 pick (ooh!) and that’s a stacked young team regardless of this year’s win loss record.
Essentially, we’re not only blowing Tyrus’ value this year, but Tyrus’ replacement’s value, too (JJ). And we’re losing by 20 points each game. Holy geez.
I agree with some of what you're getting at, but I don't think the talent is necessarily there
If we trade Kirk, then we can maybe re-sign Tyrus, especially if he emerges and deserves it.
But I don’t think we can count on it happening, and if we trade Kirk, I’d still want useful talent.
MPG mentioned a while back a trade of something like Kirk/Miller/Jerome James for Lowry/TMac/Cook. That makes a lot of sense to me because we’d potentially create space to ensure a max FA, and to re-sign Tyrus if we want to, but also keep us competitive this year.
Ideally I’d still try moving Salmons too.
They should have done this regardless this past off-season.
I’ve hated Salmons (as a player, not a person) since I first watched him play for the Bulls (4 or 5 games in). I hate his style of play, and I knew (I think we all did) that he was the excuse to not re-sign Gordon. I always knew the possibility that he wasn’t going to be near as good as last year and there was a small chance he wouldn’t opt out. He’s boring to watch. He sucks. He’s old. And he can ruin whatever shitty and tenuous plan the Bulls ever had in the first place.
I’d rather they signed Gordon and traded Salmons for a useful 2010 expiring contract (or any contract), but I would have traded him even if they didn’t re-sign Gordon.
I hate John Salmons.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Dec 1, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Informative and to the point
At this point, my question is who could we trade him for. We need a player that’s
1. Somewhat useful
2. Has an expiring contract
We can ship him to Dallas
for Shawne Williams and Kris Humphries. It won’t win us any games right now, but it cuts out the risk of Salmons opting in next year and frees up some space to sign D-Leaguers or make future trades.
like it.
Dallas is always a good candidate to take on contracts.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
FYI: Shawne Williams has been banished again
This time by the Mavericks.
The Mavericks have taken a page out of the Pacers’ book when it comes to dealing with players with character issues. The Mavericks have told former Pacer Shawne Williams to stay away from the team. They plan to hold onto him to see if they can trade him
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
Ideally...
…if we’re not JUST looking for expiring contracts, you’d want a big man good on offense and hopefully average on defense.
Here’s that list, in age ascending order, for players with at least 10 mpg (yay! at number 1) over the last two years.
Now to look for expiring contracts and teams who might want a SG over a big man…
Renaldo Balkman isn’t playing and is RFA this season. Aaron Afflalo and Anthony Carter suck for SG. Denver isn’t going for a free agent and even if Salmons opts in, he still expires when ’Melo can opt out. Tough to get Salaries. Salmons and Pargo and trade exceptions for Carter, Balkman, Malik Allen (yes!!!), Petro, Graham, blah blah blah and maybe Aflalo. meh? Something in there would have to work, no?
Yeah, that’s all I got. I’m too lazy to look at anyone else.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
he did
3yr, $6m, making it even weirder that they still won’t play him.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 8:03 PM CST up reply actions
That was one of the most bizarre extensions I can remember being given.
He must be one helluva practice player.
Salmons can be traded to San Antonio
They are struggling right now (for them) and they are definitely a win now team. They pursued Salmons at the trade deadline last season as well. He would fit nicely as their starting 2 alongside Jefferson and is a stop gap until Manu returns. You could do this trade -
Chicago sends Salmons
Spurs send Mason and Bonner
or
Chicago sends Salmons
Spurs send Mason and Finley
Both work to keep the Bulls out of the luxury tax, and give the Bulls additional expiring contracts. I would prefer to hold out for Bonner instead of Finley, but I would take either trade right now.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 1, 2009 7:34 PM CST up reply actions
I don't see them parting with Bonner in this kind of trade
since he’s a big who can space the floor and knows their system well. But hey, it’s worth checking into, that’s for sure.
Salmons for Amir Johnson and Antoine Wright
Pro: Cements us in max contract range
Con: Maybe makes it less likely Bosh leaves Toronto?
That would be awesome.
And I highly doubt John Salmons is going to affect Chris Bosh’s decision in any way.
I don't know if the Bulls do any trade
with an eastern ‘rival’ (any in the 5-11 rank)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
I still don't see, if we sell off some of these pieces, a FA looking at our 'core'
as some kind of overriding factor, especially if that core manages a 35 win season. Why not just play for the (Brooklyn) Nets or Knicks and hope they get more free agency help?
Per usual, any coaching decisions in Bulls-ville are up to the coach. The Org. doesn’t have the vision at the top to try and navigate such issues. Except for that stretch when VDN was benching Rose in 4th quarters.
And I can’t help but think not playing JJ helps his value (or keeps it steady)?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
I saw you mentioned LeBron said "me + people = good team"
I dunno, maybe you’re right that having a core doesn’t matter. But Cleveland didn’t have a core and it did matter, and now LeBron’s on his way out.
It’s not like these guys have their whole careers ahead of them. Next year will be LeBron’s/Wade’s/Bosh’s eighth season, Joe Johnson’s 10th. There’s wear on those tires, and there’s a good chance that – at least for Wade and Johnson – this will be their last contract as elite players. And so far they’ve combined for 1 title.
Go to the Knicks or the Nets, and you’re probably putting serious championship talk aside for a year or two. I think that would figure in.
yeah, I figured his comments to mean his way of justifying
going to the Knicks/Nets. Plus he could see ’dorf and assume no matter their straits now, he has a better chance being built around on one of those teams.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 3:28 PM CST up reply actions
Let's not underestimate the appeal of 7 seconds or less.
Scoring 35 a game and getting 10/11 assists and 9/10 rebounds wouldn’t be unheard of.
He could average a triple-double for a few a years playing under D’Antoni. He couldget pretty close or even over 30,000 points by the time he’s 32, fifth or sixth on the all-time list depending on what Kobe does and if D’Antoni stayed. I think that’s a big selling point.
Seriously, because they’re cheap, the last two off-seasons have been horrible for the Bulls.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
yeah, but VDN is like Jewel-brand D'Antoni!
he says RUN! and everything
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
Chairman's Choice™
A wonderful selection of what you think are top quality products, but are in fact just crap the brands turned away.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Dec 1, 2009 4:23 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
ha, well done.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
WHY HAVEN'T MORE PEOPLE REC'D THIS?!?!
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 1, 2009 6:16 PM CST up reply actions
I reccd it (just saw it)
This site’s about the only thing keeping me interesting in our depressing team….I’m generally happy too, but this really sucks….
Sadly....through thick and thin....
Agreed man
this site keeps my interest in the Bulls alive.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 2, 2009 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
I'd only be watching the Bucks and Rockets right now if it wasn't for BaB.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
Well
I guess I lied, I have Deng and Noah in my fantasy league too (good choices those two so far)…
I actually picked Noah one round before Deng after the Noah down the stretch last year, and that was because I was worried about Deng’s injury history and had a good idea Noah “got it”. So far save for 1-2 games, Noah’s been a beast at his C position.
Deng’s been solid in fantasty at the SF spot, but he has more good SF’s to compete with….so while he scores more in fantasy, compared to his position, Noah’s been the better fantasty player….
Sadly....through thick and thin....
I'm sad I just thought of this.
One of the bigger objections about signing Ben Gordon to an extension at $11-$12 million was that he wouldn’t be tradeable in a sign-and-trade. I consistently said he would. That has been in the context of Del Negro being the coach. Could you imagine if D’Antoni were the coach.
They re-sign Gordon at $11 million two years ago, when they hire D’Antoni, and Gordon at 35 mpg in SSOL? He’s scoring 24, 25 per game and looking like a bargain to a dumb GM in a sign and trade (and let’s face it, if the Bulls were taking a superduperstar from a GM, he’s a dumb one that couldn’t build around said player in 7 years).
Anywhooo… ugh.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
why is Deng always included in the ''core''?
Is it because of the size of his contract or that you consider him to be good? Cause I don’t.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
I guess you said what I just said....sorry
Deng’s been better than I expected thus far this year. I think he’s been “FAR better” than he was 2 years ago when he had all the hype. Difference is he’s doing more while we have a lot less…..
Sadly....through thick and thin....
He's good, he's young
He defends well, he scores well….and I think I presume he’ll be healthy again.
Sadly....through thick and thin....
thats all fine and dandy but I don't want him as a core player.
If they can deal him they should. He’s just a softy.
The stupidity of this city from the politics to the sports teams is at an all time high. In order for change it might take people dying.. look at the Blackhawks.
Eh, he's 24 years old
averaging 18 and 8, giving you 40 minutes a night with good defense. And he’s signed on for the next forever years. I know what you’re saying, and injuries are an issue, but I think he’s not a bad piece to stick with.
Yeah
It’s early but if he stays healthy his contract is fine….I mean I’d take BG, but oh well…Deng’s not off, and not much more and proving right now to be a value so far this year for his contract….
Funny thing is ironman BG’s been hurt a little bit….is that karma?
Sadly....through thick and thin....
I wouldn't be opposed
To trading him BTW, he is not untouchable and might be at prime value in 2 more months….for a reasonable filler and more cap room….get a decent 2 for say $5-6M/yr and an expiring plus mid first round pick, and why not….
But I don’t want to firesell Deng….and in the scenario above we trade only if $50M seems more logical in Feb than the $54-55M it might be…
Sadly....through thick and thin....
I guess the question is..
Is he the SF you want next to Rose? If Deng is going to be the future sf for the Bulls then they’ll have to bring in a sharp shooting 2 man like Joe Johnson. Because Deng doesn’t really help Rose out taking college threes.
I rather just say fuck it, build around Noah, Rose and Tyrus but the Bulls have other plans I guess.
The stupidity of this city from the politics to the sports teams is at an all time high. In order for change it might take people dying.. look at the Blackhawks.
It's looking like Deng is getting into 3pt shooting
He’s made 6/10 in his last 12 games, not bad. Last three years he’s made 20/52 (38.4%). It’s possible Deng’s a good 3pt shooter, and I think Vinny is starting to recognize that. This year in the first in a while where I’ve seen Deng setting up behind the line.
That still has to be determined...
Deng’s proving he can play with Rose this year, but so far we haven’t seen Rose play the way we like too often yet….
I think Deng definitely can work cuz he’s adept at the 15-18 foot jumpers and a solid defender, with a bit of the versatility that matches a team that Rose will need….
Now why aren’t we exploiting that versatility with this roster is puzzling…I know injuries aren’t helping, but even with Tyrus out and Kirk in we were trying to go at teams in a traditional manner with a very atypical roster, and our goal to change things is just “run, run, run, run run-”
Sadly....through thick and thin....
But man
would I like to have a SF who can shoot the 3 (y’know, like the rest of the league…); although Deng’s getting close I guess.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 1, 2009 6:17 PM CST up reply actions
and he's only 24.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Good post
the problem, as I see it, is that for a coach to buy into that way of thinking (ala D’Antoni), the coach needs to feel really secure. VDN doesn’t have that type of job security. Obviously, VDN knows that Hunter’s best ball is far behind him, and JJ’s best basketball is ahead of him. But VDN, more than anyone else, needs to win now. He needs to win to keep this job and to win in hopes of obtaining the next job. So to employ this strategy, you have to hire and give your coach job security. The Bulls haven’t done that. Whoever you get, VDN is going to limit the minutes of the less experienced players with low value (JJ, Tyrus, even Taj) for more experienced players who put the team in a better position to win. VDN would be more likely to tolerate losing now to improve the future if he knew he was going to be part of that future.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 1, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions
completely agree
VDN is going for wins, and probably should. Even with Hinrich/Tyrus out there are some on the schedule that he needs in the bank.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
One other thing
Could you get anything of value for Miller/Salmons/Pargo that is more valuable than their possible cap space. If Salmons opts out, isn’t he giving the Bulls max value already? I find trading Miller in the trade machine is tough, exactly for that reason. Getting a prospect/draft pick and keeping cap space for 2010 seems almost impossible if Miller is involved in the trade. Either you are keeping Miller for cap space or you are trading him to a team that wants cap space for their good players / prospects.
Hinrich is a different story, since his contract doesn’t expire. But isn’t what you are advocating essentially what the Bulls are doing except they have held on to Hinrich for far too long?
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 1, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
I'm advocating giving young guys minutes to raise their value
Tyrus and JJ especially. Trading Hinrich is the quickest way to solve a good chunk of that. Something like Hinrich+Taj for Fisher+Morrison+1st frees up playing time for Tyrus and JJ, allows us to re-sign Tyrus in the offseason, and gives us a future 1st along with a possible usable piece in Morrison (I know he sucks, but we play Lindsey right now).
no real reason
Hunter played a lot of 2-guard, pushing everyone up a slot :-/
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
Do we have the worst 8th-15th men in the league?
Our 8th-best player is James Johnson, an unproven rookie. Then we go to … Jannero Pargo, then Aaron Gray, then Lindsay Hunter … then Jerome James?
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
I dunno
Not every team is the Celtics. When healthy, I guess our 8th man is Taj, 9th is JJ, 10th is Gray, and it’s not a bad thing when you have two first round picks as your 8th and 9th men. Plenty of other mid to late first rounders have taken on big roles. And there are worse 10th men than a 7’ 300lb guy with a little bit of a post game.
Vinny’s in a tough spot between the injuries and the losing streak, and I can see his logic in playing Noah/Rose/Deng/Salmons 36-41mpg in recent weeks. But the defense has also collapsed in that time, and I can’t see how giving JJ/Gray some playing him hurts us, especially when the opposing SF/C are Ilyasova/Bogut.
Noah/Salmons/Deng/Tyrus/Rose/Taj/Hinrich are the first 7, right?
Bleh, yeah, Miller’s in there too, though at this point he looks like he may be done.
We really have a 6-man rotation, at this point, only two of the people in our rotation are injured, which is a problem.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
You forgot Miller
I’d put him over Taj in the first 7.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Dec 1, 2009 6:21 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I forgot Miller in the first post, that's what I was commenting on.
Eh, I dunno, though. At this point it looks like we have 6 guys, and two subs.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
By far Yes
You could throw Taj in that mix too as a 7th man who’s forced to play as a starter….
Pargo could be a nice 8th man if we could shoot and didn’t need to rely on him every game. He’s a bad fit on our current squad..
Sadly....through thick and thin....
it's strange because I thought in the preseason they looked deep.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
I think Byars and the play of JJ gave the Bulls some better options for lineups.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
I think you need to forget about Byars.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
I'm just saying.. why I felt they had better depth this season.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
Everyone played well in the preseason, we assumed Rose was going to be ok.
The Bulls just completely backfired on how to replace Ben Gordon. The offense was doomed before they even reported to training camp.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 1, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
Dwyer on Rose:
Yesterday was the last day of November. That was the month that was. His was a preseason injury. I know it’s your first, I know it hurts; I know you don’t want to come down on someone’s foot and I know you feel like you don’t have your explosiveness. I know the feeling (especially the “explosiveness” part). Doesn’t matter. Get over it, and get to the rim.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Behind-the-Box-Score-where-Monta-went-off?urn=nba,205899#remaining-content
nay
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
I'm a little jealous
that Ellis gets so many fluid attempts at the rim and Rose doesn’t, but then you factor in all the shooting threats around Ellis and you realize nobody can cheat off their man to stop Ellis’ penetration.
I want to see Rose guard Ellis, but can we get some damn shooters around Rose. Play Johnson already.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
Exactly
My point earlier (not related to Ellis’s production but on another post) why we suck…
We also don’t have anyone in the paint who can even for a few posessions a game be a real back to the basket threat….
I mean Noah’s points are on hustle and put backs, or fast breaks, Taj’s points are on hustle and being open if Deng and Rose draw double teams….
Not having an outside threat or a creator inside has further exposed our weaknesses before….
I guess the team can at least try to “market” that we’re now a great defensive team….we are probably playing marginally better defense overall (I don’t know if that holds still or not), but the impact is not better because BG’s offensive threat and better shooting efficiency caused our offense to be more fluid, and in turn slowed their offense a bit by virtue of energy they used defending us.
Now this year it seems it’s brick-fast break, score from the other team, vicious cycle, coupled with quite a bit of pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass got nothing, forced shot at 23 seconds left….cuz we have no spread the floor shooters or inside threats. Teams can just pack in the 5-12 foot range and stop us, barring a lucky Pargo hot streak every 5 games, or some sloppy play by the other teams leading to fast breaks for us….
The issue’s we’re having right now aren’t on Vinny. He’s doing ok, made some terrible mistakes, but I don’t know how much better other coaches would be with THIS roster….
The issues are the roster is awful…stupidly awful with no depth.
If Tyrus and Hinrich get back and Hinrich gets back to form, we could look like we have some depth again…but it’s smoke and mirrors because we could have set up better.
Sadly....through thick and thin....
Gar Forman passing on Blair... Brad Miller and Lindsey Hunter?.. Miller has nothing left.
Blair had 11 points, 10 rebs, 3 blks against the Sixers.. JJ is rotting on the bench.
How much better would this team be with Ty Lawson and Blair?I wanna cry.
The Bulls are a joke.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
they could have had..
Rose, Salmons, Deng, Noah, Tyrus, Hinrich, Blair, Lawson.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
And Ben Gordon. Don't forget Ben Gordon.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
never forget!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions
we get to dream about him tomorrow night!
what could have been! Stupid 2010! I’ll have the sound off during the game listen to this..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8poQxrykDpg&feature=related
The stupidity of this city from the politics to the sports teams is at an all time high. In order for change it might take people dying.. look at the Blackhawks.
this team could have been very good, with the same cap space
if management had made some different decisions.
Rose/Lawson
Gordon/Salmons/Rose
Deng/Salmons
Tyrus/Blair/Deng
Noah/Miller
Its not fun playing the what-if game though…
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 1, 2009 3:51 PM CST up reply actions
You forgot Hinrich. I love playing the what should have game. Lets say JR had this itch to win and spend money.
kinda like how he should be like after years of bad.. the Bulls would be pretty talented. BG would have to be a 6th man.
Rose/ Hinrich/ Lawson
Salmons / BG
Deng/ Byars
Tyrus/ Blair/
Noah/ Miller
top 3 team in the East?
The stupidity of this city from the politics to the sports teams is at an all time high. In order for change it might take people dying.. look at the Blackhawks.
i assume
that smurf traded hinrich to make room for signing gordon.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
ok so he was traded to Minny..
The stupidity of this city from the politics to the sports teams is at an all time high. In order for change it might take people dying.. look at the Blackhawks.
blah blah blah blah blah blah
yada yada yada yada, blah? eh, blah blah blah…hmmm, blah, yada yada blah!! Ohhhh, blah blah and blah. blah, no…….blah blah blah blah, with yada. lol, oh yada yada yada!!! ok, blah blah yada…..lmao….yada blah blah blah……..This is all i read when I see comments on what VDN did wrong, or why Rose is a cooch, or why Salmons and Miller need to go. Im sorry, but i just cant stand it anymore. And for those of you thinkning, “then why are you here”, its because im a bulls fan (as tough as it is to be one right now) and im just saying that all of our thoughts and ideas, and projections, and quotations, and trade suggestions dont mean anything. This team needs rebuilding from the ground up. And its going to be a long long time before that happens.
"All they do is mock me, just like they did the fat fellow. All the time mocking, mocking, mocking, mocking all the time! Now, it is Babu's turn to mock "---Babu Bhatt in the Seinfeld Finale Part 2
P.S.
"The fact of the matter is the chicago bulls have never been a contender since I left..."----Johnny Kilroy
by chi_till_eye_die on Dec 1, 2009 4:06 PM CST reply actions
ok, cya.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 1, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
That's what 'selective attention' is for.
And the team doesn’t need rebuilding from the ground up. It needs rebuilding from the neck up, first, because there’s like a massive tumor there. So to fix the tumor the Bulls keep like buying these bandages for these pesky cuts on their fingers, but there’s still this giant freakin’ tumor on the base of their head.
That was an odd metaphor, oh well.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
by Prevenge on Dec 1, 2009 4:57 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
lol
"All they do is mock me, just like they did the fat fellow. All the time mocking, mocking, mocking, mocking all the time! Now, it is Babu's turn to mock "---Babu Bhatt in the Seinfeld Finale Part 2
P.S.
"The fact of the matter is the chicago bulls have never been a contender since I left..."----Johnny Kilroy
by chi_till_eye_die on Dec 1, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions
I looked for pictures of people with giant tumors but I almost puked at what I saw
so Ill rec this instead
See, this is what happens when the Sox bunt.
Discord is sown. Brother fights brother. Misunderstandings abound.
-TAEG
I'd love to see someone use the word "cooch" when describing Derrick Rose.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Dec 1, 2009 6:45 PM CST up reply actions
KC is on CTL.
The stupidity of this city from the politics to the sports teams is at an all time high. In order for change it might take people dying.. look at the Blackhawks.
said nothing.
The stupidity of this city from the politics to the sports teams is at an all time high. In order for change it might take people dying.. look at the Blackhawks.
Can CTL break news just once?
I don’t even know why I bother to turn it on.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
Loved Lindsey going coast-to-coast, presence of mind to get the ball to Fish for 3,
We still have not signed anyone to a 10- day? I mean you can’t find an athletic 6’5" or taller guard to at least come in and defend/get rebounds/hustle points? Or a 6’10" goon to help inside for 5-10 minutes a night till TT and Kert come back?
I know teams don’t use those contracts as much as they used to, but we need help to stay competitive.
Remember, We're #1
…in franchise profitablilty!
The heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing.
Blaise Pascal, Bulls Fan
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