No need to panic: everything is going according to the Bulls plan
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 29, 2009 6:21 PM CST
118 comments
As I said after the Bulls loss in Utah, it does matter that the Bulls are getting blown out on this road trip in addition to merely losing. It matters in that it follows that this Bulls team is not likely to perform up to a .500 record the rest of the way at this current level.
But even with Thomas and Hinrich's absence bringing this team's performance down to far below average, their record is still 6-8, and the games they've lost so far on the trip were games they wouldn't have been favored in preseason anyway. At least if you figured they'd be at or near 41-41 at the end of this season and tempered the game-by-game expectations accordingly.
They may sign a fringe player at guard to a nonguaranteed deal if Hinrich's out for an extended period, but with little room under the tax they likely can't even give a prorated vet minimum as it'd completely close their options later in the year if another signing is necessary. It's a testament to poor planning and cap mismanagement on the Bulls part that they assembled such nonexistent-to-poor depth, as D-Leaguers could likely give the Bulls more than what Hunter/Gray/Pargo currently provide, and at half the cost. The fact that they're counting on spots 10-13 on the roster means that the season already hasn't worked out for the best, but it doesn't mean you throw away guaranteed money, especially with such a tight budget going into the offseason. It similarly makes any trades very difficult to complete.
But while depth has become a real issue, and though they are boring to watch (and really hard to blog about), the Bulls aren't in a dire situation. Not yet. The early part of every Bulls season is always the toughest, and then they surge towards mediocrity and an early playoff exit. With more games against their eastern peers (and the Nets) as well as Tyrus Thomas returning, it will likely happen again this year. There may be cries here for an Iverson (or anyone) signing to help 'save' this season, but there's nothing to save. A meaningful season was punted on July 1st, and the narrative surrounding the Bulls is acknowledging more by the loss that they may have been just blowing smoke when saying they'd make a step up this season due to...I don't know, 'ball movement' or something.
The idea that a full season of Salmons ('fluke rule') and Miller ('old and out of shape rule') would make a big difference has proven false. Hinrich was supposed to be a better complement to Rose (he can't be if the skills he provides are overshadowed by general suckage) and Rose himself was to be an All-Star now that nobody would be getting in his way on offense (wha?). The defense certainly looks ordinary again after a fast start, and that was one realistic hope for actual improvement.
But team improvement wasn't necessary in this grand franchise plan. In fact, the plan is not really a plan at all: it's to be lucky. The Bulls may be positioning (and not there yet, depending on some cap variables) to acquire a max free-agent, and it'll be tough for me to call it an achievement of the team if they're able to pull it off: it'll mostly just be a fortunate occurrence.
And if you look throughout NBA history for how teams become championship contenders, a lot of it is indeed luck. The Bulls already had more than their share given their improbable lottery victory two summers ago. But now, though seeing improvement from Noah and a bounce-back year from Deng is a big help, they need another massive stroke of luck to be relevant again. Whether they get that or not, it stinks that it's not only what the franchise could use, but what they're absolutely banking on. Their front office is certainly not making their way back to the top by being good at their jobs.
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Luck?
Sure there’s some luck involved in winning a title, but more than anything it’s just having one of the best players in the NBA. And scouting well.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 6:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
How do you get one of the best players in the NBA?
More specifically… how does it usually happen?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Nov 29, 2009 6:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
More than trades or signings it comes through the draft
And getting a star with a top 5 pick.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 7:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's luck getting Rose at #1
maybe a bit more skill drafting Brandon Roy instead of Tyrus?
Though I feel I’m twisting everything to make sure the Bulls look like incompetents ;-)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 29, 2009 7:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously there is a great deal of skill in evaluating talent, but drafting is still mostly luck.
Back in ’06, the vast majority of the so-called experts would have bashed the Bulls if they had taken Roy over Thomas.
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 29, 2009 9:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I strongly disagree
Brandon Roy was being talked about as being a possible #1 pick. If you watched Brandon Roy at all in college you saw a guy who was without a doubt the most complete player in the draft that year. That doesn’t guarantee that he would turn out the way he has. But anyone could see that Roy was far closer to reaching his potential than Thomas. It certainly wasn’t a slam dunk that you would pick Thomas over Roy.
This is what Chad Ford said after Portland picked Roy
The Timberwolves are sending Roy to the Blazers for the draft rights to Randy Foye. The Blazers get the guy who has the inside track for Rookie of the Year. Roy is ready to play now and should step in as the Blazers starting two guard right away. He’s going to be a popular pick for Portland. Not as popular as Adam Morrison, but in my mind, Roy was one of the four best players in the draft.
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 29, 2009 9:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus Thomas was talked about as being a #1 pick
And then there was the fact that everybody on the planet thought the Bulls needed a big man.
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 29, 2009 11:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who would have bashed the Bulls?
They needed that “big” guard who was ready to contribute and a lot of peeps thought he was perfect for them
by Option27 on Nov 29, 2009 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they're paid better than the experts.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2009 12:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ehhh...
If you’re horrendously awful and you get a star player…not sure that’s luck. If you kinda beat the odds like Seattle did and get Durant…that might be luck.
I guess you can also argue luck factors in to which year you pick #1. Like LeBron vs. Bargnani.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 7:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lately...it has been through trades.
Shaq to Miami, Garnett and Allen to Boston, Gasol to LA….
Otherwise, it usually happens through the draft…with Wade in Miami, Duncan in San Antonio and Pierce in Boston (technically, Kobe was traded to LA, but it was a draft night deal).
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 29, 2009 9:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know this is nitpicking, but the trades are happening through some crazy circumstances.
Shaq gets traded because two superstars refuse to get along, and management has to pick one over the other.
Gasol gets traded for nothing after repeated attempts to move him to Chicago (and who knows elsewhere) because the team is losing money and needs to cut salaries.
Garnett gets traded at the worst possible time after Minnesota repeatedly rebuffed attempts to move him, not to mention he was more attracted to Boston after they make a panic draft-day trade for Ray Allen.
I don’t know if that’s luck or just a lot of coincidence. I think the biggest luck factor is what year your favorite team lands a top 3 pick. Imagine if the Bulls had the 1st pick in 2002 and selected Yao Ming, or landed in the top 5 in 2003 and were able to land Bosh, Wade, or Carmelo.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 29, 2009 10:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i can bet about all my life savings
that we wouldve been the idiots that bought into the darko hype if we had that pick
by sin on Nov 30, 2009 1:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Roy and Oden to the Blazers, Durant to to the Thunder, James to Cleveland...
Bosh to Toronto, Dirk to Dallas, Melo to Denver. Howard to the Magic. Yao to Houston, Paul to New Orleans.
Sure, there are trades, but I wouldn’t say “lately” it’s been through trades at all. The vast majority of current studs in the NBA play for the teams that drafted them (or acquired them on draft night or shortly thereafter that summer).
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Nov 29, 2009 11:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My point about luck vs. talent evaluation
Should be construed to mean that being lucky isn’t enough. Look at Bosh. In some respect the team got lucky by drafting him, but they’ve done a poor job of evaluating talent, so they’ve gotten nowhere.
I think with those other players, the jury is still out. They’ve all, I think, gotten to conference or NBA finals, which isn’t at all shabby. Oddly, the team that’s been really superlative at getting talent on the cheap, Houston, has had the worst luck when it came to Yao’s health.
That underscores the point. Luck is fickle. We lucked into drafting Rose. What are we making of it? What kind of luck was it?
by Sports2 on Nov 30, 2009 8:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
right, it made more sense that their luck was getting to draft Rose
and they were especially lucky because they had a plethora of young talent, though they underperformed to the point where they were even able to draft Rose…
And now they managed to undo that luck by getting rid of the other guys instead of building from there, so they need yet more to be good again.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Man, I really missed the pessimism around here on my 4 day BaB break
and if you think I’m being sarcastic, I’m really not. Everyone else I talk to about the Bulls just doesn’t care or is dumb enough to still be optimistic about this team.
We’re DOOMED!!!! But seriously, we are really bad right now.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Nov 30, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Being charitable, I think some folks simply have different (and lower) expectations
Some folks are content to root for a team even if they don’t really think the team is trying as hard as they can or employing the best methods it could.
by Sports2 on Nov 30, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, and that kinda irks me
I mean, why are the Bulls the one team in Chicago (besides the Cubs, I guess) that can get away with not winning by still selling out every game? If the Bears were this bad (and it actually looks like they’re getting there) this entire city would be calling for Lovie and Angelo’s head! Which they basically already are!
I guess it just goes back to the fact that this is and will always be a football/baseball city; we only truly cared about the Bulls when MJ was here. You can tell by how little the Bulls are discussed on talk radio and in the newspapers. The Cubs and Sox are still getting more coverage than the Bulls, and it’s the baseball offseason! Ridiculous.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Nov 30, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I get what you're saying
but I still think we’re one of the best basketball towns. I think the “thug reputation” hurt the game quite a bit. My wife’s family were big Piston’s fans, and then in the 90’s the game changed and they kinda gave up on NBA basketball. They still love to watch the game, but they started watching college more… The reason they gave me is college kids still love the game and it wasn’t about the money.
Now it’s just another form of entertainment for most people in most cities. Like going to a movie or a play…. Here in Chicago there are still a large group of fans who stuck through all the hard times and love the game for what it is, rather than just using it as a distraction from the real world and nothing more.
by 72-10 on Nov 30, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose you're right
I used to live in Atlanta and I feel like the people here in Chicago (at least on the north side and out in the burbs) are getting as apathetic as Hawks fans used to be.
I do really dislike the whole sentiment that college kids play for the “love of the game” and the pros don’t. I find it to be utterly untrue. College kids are playing for a chance to get drafted and at the very least for a free education and “big man on campus” status. I think most people that are that good at something probaby have love for it, and getting paid to do it usually doesn’t change that. Just my opinion though.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Nov 30, 2009 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This may be nitpicking...
But the original post to which I was referencing specifically mentioned winning a title…The common thread among the players you mentioned, zero titles.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 30, 2009 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oh, okay...
Wade, Pierce, Kobe, Duncan, Ginobili, Parker,
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Nov 30, 2009 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL domination.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Nov 30, 2009 5:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Are you that daft?
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 30, 2009 7:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Nov 30, 2009 10:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right...
I forgot…in the words of your yfbb…“You Suck”
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Dec 1, 2009 8:18 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
All comes down to ...
Who wants to come play with rose, Noah, and deng. Right now Wade and bosh aren’t doing so bad with their teams. As long as our young core keeps improving and the key fa’s can see that, win-loss doesn’t matter so much. Let’s just say we need to play well when a potential fa’s team plays us (hopefully win?)
WADE 2010
by Orange Juice on Nov 29, 2009 6:51 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Also....I think a real coach helps
Yet I’m always surprised and what players are willing to live with when the $$$ is right
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 6:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Bah
As I said in the other thread, I’ll take talent evaluation. It’s certainly true that most title teams have good fortune. But good fortune is easily and frequently squandered by bad teams making bad decisions.
Teams that win a title almost always combine good fortune with good decision-making. I’m fairly certain that if we have the former but not the latter, the former will be moot.
by Sports2 on Nov 29, 2009 7:48 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Also, the team is more likely to "get lucky" with a max FA if it doesn't stink.
by Sports2 on Nov 29, 2009 7:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are they? I'm not sure. What's difficult is that the 2010 class is unprecedented.
I guess the 2000 class was the closest thing.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 8:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A team is more likely to get lucky with a max FA if they can pay a max FA
The Bulls don’t have the ability to pay a max FA right now, and I don’t see how they will be able to. Thomas will be gone, but the Bulls won’t be able to move Kirk or Deng and unless they do one of those they simply won’t have room. They have done an abysmal job setting themselves up to get a good FA — I think the Bulls already know they aren’t going to get anyone of note.
The Bulls front office has simply done an atrocious job since drafting Rose. This year’s draft was wretched, filling the bench with Pargo-Hunter-Gray is simply ridiculous, even if it is the backend of the bench. Those spots could be used on some D leaguers that actually have upside (at leats one of those damn spots could) — it’s wasting a chance to develop talent.
And speaking of wasting talent, when Thomas leaves for nothing at the end of the year, it will be the 2nd top ten pick the Bulls have let walk for nothing. That’s a huge indictment of the organization’s ability to evaluate and develop talent and also to leverage their resources and plan.
by hitlesswonder on Nov 29, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
If Thomas leaves for nothing, it will be the 4th top 5 pick to leave for nothing...
Remember Jason Williams and Marcus Fizer.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 29, 2009 9:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me
what do you get for those guys, Jason Williams had a career ending injury, I would rather not a boat load of 2nd round picks for Fizer and Thomas
by QUINTEN DALEY on Nov 30, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
seriously
this “luck” stuff is ridiculous. the Bulls have been badly mismanaged. It has nothing to do with luck.
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 29, 2009 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think our overall suckiness for the past decade has much to do with luck
the baffling thing is that we’ve actually been incredibly luckly in regards to getting high picks (let’s not forget all those top 10 picks we got from the Knicks!) and we’ve still managed to be nothing more than mediocre in our best years.
You could probably make a case that we’ve been one of the five worst managed teams in the league.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Nov 30, 2009 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that wasn't luck in getting the top picks
they worked hard to be bad. Also, that Eddy Curry deal was completely awesome, not luck.
I actually thought they were unlucky in not having high picks in the better draft years. But the 08 lottery made up for that.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2009 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True
but although the Eddie Curry deal was awesome; who would think that we would get a #2 pick out of that deal? Or that we’d get three top 10 picks out of it? I certainly didn’t. One, maybe. But three?
We just happened to whiff in ‘06 and get above average role players the rest of the time (except for D-Rose, but I suppose the jury’s still out on that — he’s at least got to be a #2-caliber guy, right?).
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Nov 30, 2009 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Deals with Isaiah Thomas made the Bulls
The Bulls made basically five outstanding moves during their resurgence IMO.
1. The spent money on the Phoenix pick that netted Deng. And they did a good job of picking Deng. Though I don’t think they could have gone wrong with Iggy either.
2. They signed up Noc, who contributed and at a reasonable price.
3. They engineered a salary dump of Jerome Williams via the Crawford sign and trade. I’ll freely admit I was probably wrong about wanting to re-sign Crawford. That’s the move that allowed the Bulls to eventually sign Wallace, which proved disastrous, but it did open up lots of options for them.
4. Duhon was a stellar pick as a 2nd rounder.
5. The Curry trade got them two very high lottery picks.
Now here’s the kicker. Two of those deals happened solely because Isaiah Thomas was a terrible, terrible GM. In some ways, we ought to have Zeke’s name hanging from the rafters in the UC, because he helped the Bulls as much as anyone.
by Sports2 on Nov 30, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When I look at the players drafted...
Behind the picks the Bulls had made, it becomes really hard to say that obviously better players were left on the board…I know some of the players drafted later have become better, but they were not projected better on draft night…I actually agree with yfbb, it would have been better to have high picks different seasons…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 30, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, too.
2005 would have been a good year to have the No. 2 overall pick. Or 2007 to get lucky and have the Bulls win the lottery.
I’d rather have Paul, Oden, and Rush or Thompson plus whatever crap from 2006 was around 10th overall. than Gordon, Deng, Thomas, Noah, Rose.
Although, they did screw up in 2006.
If they have Hinrich, Roy, Deng and Noah, I think they’re sitting pretty darn nice right now. damn, and if they had happened to draft Hinrih’s replacement with lawson… oh, and one would assume they would have traded Gordon for something since they didn’t need his scoring and couldn’t pretend they wanted to keep him.
So I’ve sort of changed my mind. The years could have been better, but they could have been better with where they drafted anyway.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Nov 30, 2009 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I want no part of a "decent product"
I want banners raised in the UC. Accepting anything less is loser talk.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 9:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you are right
constantly losing and being unwatchable proves how winners the Bulls are truly winners.
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 29, 2009 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or...
Have a crappy season and get a high draft pick to use lure a max FA, or in a sign and trade.
Not that I am in any way advocating tanking for a draft pick, I just don’t think losing really submarines our attempts to get a max FA either.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Nov 30, 2009 12:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Would you rather have max cap space and win 42 games or 22 games?
I think most max FAs would rather come to the team with max space and that won 42.
by Sports2 on Nov 30, 2009 8:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really see it that way...
First and foremost let me just state that I want the Bulls to win as many games possible. I bought the damn league pass, so I prefer to watch them win. That is all on that.
Regarding a max FA next year…
Sure we are a more attractive team when we look like we are a contender (or at least 1 piece away), but the reality of the situation is that we wouldn’t have max money if we were only one piece away. We aren’t now, and we won’t be unless we sign a max FA. double edged sword that is. I would hope that any max FA could see that we have a young core of players and maybe can’t get it done, but could get it done with a Bosh, Wade, James, etc. I mean put LeBron on the Bulls and we are in the finals this year. If we also have a top 5 pick when they (the LeBrons) get here, well, that’s just added gravy. I sincerely doubt that LeBron would be upset that we get better players through the draft to surround him with anyway.
All that being said, I really don’t see Wade or LeBron leaving. Possibly Bosh, and I have no idea about Johnson’s status. I truly believe it has just as much to do with marketing opportunities and PR than it does about basketball with these guys.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Nov 30, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LeBron said it himself
he thinks any team he goes to is a contender, and he’d be right. I still think he’d want a better team than a worse one, and would rather just stay in Cleveland. Or go to a desperate market that would treat him like a savior. If he came to the Bulls Reinsdorf would try and see if LeBron would give up some salary for incentives.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2009 10:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right. He could make any team very good.
He’s already done that in Cleveland. But why not make a very good team great?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Nov 30, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What about the Nike 100 million dollar (or something like that) rumor?
Have we dispelled that already?
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Nov 30, 2009 3:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In regards to LeBron playing in a larger market that is.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Nov 30, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think LeBron might get into a bit of legal trouble with the NBA if he signed an agreement like that.
Nike, too.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Nov 30, 2009 5:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think if it were that easy for Lebron to be in the finals, he'd have been in the Finals more
I also think a team can, through a series of very good moves, position itself to both be good and have max cap space. Swap Hinrich and Gordon on this year’s Bulls, and I think next year they could still have max cap space if they’d played their cards right, but this year they’d be better.
Alternatively, look at the Heat. They’re not terrible, and they will, I think, have lots of cap room next year. Why should Wade leave when he could stay there and convince another max guy to come play with him, for example?
by Sports2 on Nov 30, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Take LeBron away from Cleveland and we are a vastly superior team...
I didn’t say it was easy for him to get to the finals, just that with the Bulls it probably would be. Who really knows though, it’s just my opinion.
Regarding Wade and the max FA situation, yeah I think he would be stupid to leave if they could sign a max FA to play with him. Not to mention the weather in Miami, and the fact that there is no state income tax in Florida. It’s for some of these same reasons that I see Bosh taking the first train out of Toronto too. Who knows, maybe he’ll end up in Miami?
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Nov 30, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really think the Bulls are vastly superior to the LeBron-less Cavs.
The Bulls are better, but vastly better? I doubt it.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Nov 30, 2009 5:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is it luck when.....
Your highest paid players are consistently only the third, fourth or sixth most talented and/or best performers on the team every year. How about when the best players are usually traded or let go for nothing before they reach their prime? Is that a recipe to build championships? No? What if they look and play like Hoosiers? You know, the right way. In Paxsons image. Hinrick is his Poster child. Chicago deserves better.
by sadafan on Nov 29, 2009 10:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the captains!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2009 12:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich is also
a Riensdorf guy, Pax could’ve been traded Kirk, but Riensdorf will not allow that to happen
by QUINTEN DALEY on Nov 30, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This post is right on. People are panicking but honestly we are right where should be expected. Treading water, right around .500. We always start slow when we have to play all the top teams in the West…then after the All-star break, we finish strong. We’re gonna end up around 40-43 wins as expected.
Just business as usual in the CHI
by C Smoove on Nov 29, 2009 8:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Having Noah and Deng on the floor at the same time...
is probably the cause of defensive gains.
by Super-Structure on Nov 29, 2009 8:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Bulls Championship Hopes and NBA reality
I’m gonna bring up a point BaB member Granny Waters and I came up with in another post which deals with where the Bulls are headed.
Since 1980 – The NBA Champions have been controlled by about 8-9 players. Magic(Lakers),Bird(Celtics), Issiah(Pistons), JordanPippen(Bulls), Hakeem(Rockets)MJPIP,Tim(Spurs), ShaqKobe(Lakers), outside of those multiple championship teams there are only 3 outliers in 30 years…. Detroit-04, Miami-06, and Boston-08( and they could be a multi winner this year.)
So instead of getting angry that the Bulls havent found that 1/1000or3000? player that guarentees you Championships I think its ok to hope the Bulls set themselves up under the Detriot -04 model of getting to the conference finals for 7 straight years only breaking through and winning the Champ once, or the Boston model of getting some decent players then hoping a STAR is fed up with his situation and picks the Bulls to try to win a Champ. ( I dont understand the Miami thing cause they flat out sucked right after they won the Champ).
Resigning Ben or going over the Cap this year wouldnt put them anywhere close to gaining one of the Championwinningsuperstars I named above. This season is about getting Derrick another year under his belt, staying under the cap so they can strive for the Det,/Miami example, and at least staying competive and trying to make playoffs. Hope for anything bigger is really playing against the odds… A team without a True Superstar has won 1/29 of the last Championships…( Detriot -04).
by Jscho316 on Nov 29, 2009 8:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
and even that 2004 Detroit team
had probably Top 10-15 players at every position in their starting lineup
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 9:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They were no superstars on that team.
Just have 5 really good players as starters and a HOF Coach.
by T.Moore on Nov 30, 2009 12:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
all good players who were right at their prime and most productive points of their career
add a great coach. and awesome defense and thats a good formula
basically our 06-07 team was a crappier model of theirs.
5 decent players.
1good coach
pretty damn good defense
by sin on Nov 30, 2009 1:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and Miami had Shaq...
…on the downside of his career with DWade on the upside of his…last season LA team had Kobe surrounded by talent…so the only real outliers in this model are the sixers and the ’04 Pistons…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 29, 2009 9:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dr, J and Moses Malone were not top level stars?
so the only real outliers in this model are the sixers
"Then you need a center so if the ball gets stuck between the rim and backboard he can reach up and knock it loose instead of having to spend 15 minutes trying to hit it with a broom stick." – Sam Smith
by Granny Waiters on Nov 29, 2009 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That is not what I meant....
They only won one title together, the others on this group won multiple (except DWade, and Boston still in pursuit of #2)…but Jscho can defend his case of them being outliers…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 29, 2009 10:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
this is why i pray for LeBron or Wade
and the Bulls will have a max to offer
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Your point is well taken...
but at what point do people realize that winning a championship is unlikely (Hakeem, Magic, Duncan, Jordan/Pippen, and Kobe were all acquired on draft day) and start expecting at least a decent product.
My issue with the Bulls is that as currently constructed, they cannot even sign a player if they wanted to because of their management. If they were 6-8 and fully stocked, I would be fine, but we are currently asking Pargo and Gibson to play substantial minutes that they cannot handle and are making it difficult for our young player to develop.
I have no expectation that the Bulls will win a championship, I do hope that after 12-13 years or however long it has been, that we could at least shoot for a strong team that is enjoyable to watch.
by Super-Structure on Nov 29, 2009 9:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have no interest in a "decent product"
Banners. Trophies. Grant Park celebrations. F—- everything less than that.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would much rather be a Suns or Mavs fan...
than a Bulls fan at this point, and I was able to go to some championship games (though I was young).
Talking about banners at this point is a bit cuckoo.
by Super-Structure on Nov 29, 2009 9:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Suns and Mavs have had championship windows
and realistic shots at winning titles.
I’m not talking about a 2009-2010 banner. Obviously. I’m talking about their championship trajectory and what has to happen to get to that point.
I think it’s small time to not be thinking about how to win titles.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 10:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now you are just being semantic.
by Super-Structure on Nov 29, 2009 10:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he is saying the front office should draft/sign players with a championship in mind
not grindy players to put out a “good product” while hoping for a windfall
See, this is what happens when the Sox bunt.
Discord is sown. Brother fights brother. Misunderstandings abound.
-TAEG
by blackoutsox on Nov 29, 2009 10:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
I don’t want to see a 54 win team that is fun to watch but never wins a title.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 10:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If only accepting a championship caliber team...
means waiting another 15 years, would you make that trade?
by Super-Structure on Nov 29, 2009 10:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying there is no difference between the 2009 Magic and 2009 Kings
Obviously you want your team to go as far as possible. But every year you don’t win a title is a failure. This is the third biggest city in the country. A major market. Just being competitive is small time.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 10:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Chicago is called the windy city...
because of the “wind” we expended to get the World’s Fair…seems not much has changed.
by Super-Structure on Nov 29, 2009 11:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying I'm being wishy washy?
Because I feel like my previous statement was pretty clear. If you don’t win the title, you failed. That’s not to say it isn’t more fun to lose in the Finals than go 9-73. Obviously.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 30, 2009 1:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You are not being unclear or wishy-washy.
Just exceedingly blustery.
by Super-Structure on Nov 30, 2009 1:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How?
I mean…I guess I envy the Suns/ Mavs fans because the last 6-7 years have been way more fun…but they’ve still failed every time.
by dbrown1225 on Nov 29, 2009 10:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
suns fan
it is far far worse to have a 60+ win team, a team that’s a lock for the conf. finals year after year, a team with genuine dynasty written all over it…. if only ownership/management will just let it ride and fall into place…. instead of alienating their young star and an allstar, senselessly selling off draft picks, alienating the coach/architect…. change
anybody that thinks garpaxdorf is worse than sarverkerr is fooling themselves. ben gordon(‘08-’09) simply doesn’t compare to joe johnson(‘05), either in terms of promise as a complete 2-way nba 2 guard or as a management debacle. and the psychic pain chasm only opens wider from there. was terry porter not worse for suns than vinny del negro is for bulls? shaq trade vs ben wallace signing? (not a “true comp”, but then pax hasn’t made a disastrous trade… don’t gimme imaginary trade not made…) luxury tax spending for a “winner”? fa signing of quentin richardson wasn’t “good” in retrospect, but it did bring the suns kurt thomas – who they refused to pay in tax $ for at the very moment they needed to….
i refuse to believe reinsdorf and paxson could ever be that stupid.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
by marionette on Nov 30, 2009 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
all that is true
but at least Sarver has the excuse that the Suns aren’t a perpetual cash cow.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no one knows
the debt (ratio?) he’s got from leveraging the record purchase in ’04.
as a fan, it’s hard to care about such things as the rich owner’s balance sheet. certainly impossible to begrudge a good owner in colangelo for selling.
reinsdorf’s “i’d trade ’em all for this…” statement is 10x more offensive than everything he’s actually done/not done combined to me. (and i thoroughly enjoyed the ’05 series.)
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
by marionette on Nov 30, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the celtics were talking like that just 2 seasons ago
then bam theyre the elite for at least a good 2-3 years in a row
by sin on Nov 29, 2009 10:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so we have to tolerate watching horrible basketball until one of these players
falls into the Bulls laps? There is a wide chasm from being a championship team to being a team that has gotten out of the 1st round only once in the last 10 years. The list of teams that have put together at least one team far more competitive than the Bulls 49 win team in the last 10 years and haven’t won a championship include: Sacramento – New Jersey – Atlanta – Phoenix – Minnesota – New York – Dallas – Orlando – Clippers – Houston – Portland – Denver – Milwaukee – Philadelphia – Indiana – Washington – New Orleans – etc.
Over the last 10 years the Bulls have more in common with the Memphis Grizzlies than the LA Lakers. This team has had 2 season of above .500 ball in 10 years. When do we get to expect more?
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 29, 2009 9:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well...in fairness
Memphis won 50 games in ‘03-’04…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 29, 2009 10:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
plus playoffs in '04-'05... and memphis arguably has
more youthful talent on the upswing than the bulls do. despite trading pau for kwame (worst trade ever?)
i do believe they got the marc pick with that, though. (see, it really is luck.)
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
by marionette on Nov 30, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Having Gordon would make them better this year (thus a team on the "rise")...
…and give them the ability to make a sign-and-trade giving the chapionwinningsuperstar the most money he can get. The Bulls can’t do that without Gordon… without completely gutting the team, and the star probably wouldn’t want that, like Bryant not wanting to come to the Bulls if Dentg were in the trade.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Nov 29, 2009 11:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hope this makes you feel better
http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/lebron_james_encourages_nba
See, this is what happens when the Sox bunt.
Discord is sown. Brother fights brother. Misunderstandings abound.
-TAEG
by blackoutsox on Nov 29, 2009 9:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That's kind of stupid.
Not really a good satire.
by Stacey_Is_King on Nov 29, 2009 10:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is one of the best reads of the month btw
by Option27 on Nov 29, 2009 9:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Really?
I’ve read this same post for the past year. Just add Ben Gordon, cheap, blah, blah, blah, stir and bam: a new post from yfbb.
by Trey23 on Nov 30, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I use a mad libs.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2009 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Gee, who would have guessed the formula for such a boring, predictable franchise.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 30, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The biggest reason the Bulls are struggling is they miss Tyrus Thomas
I know Vinny and Sam Smith and some of these others say they miss Tyrus because he’s “another body” and he “adds depth” this is another way to belittle what he does for the team.
by Mr Rhythm on Nov 29, 2009 9:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
maybe now they'll realize how much worth tyrus has to this team
i wish ben gordon got injured at the beginning of last season so that we could have these scoring problems we have now and management wouldve seen how much they really need him
by sin on Nov 29, 2009 10:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
its the org and management
doesnt matter who they get, or draft, or whatever the F…..This management runs players into the ground. They dont develop the talent they have, and they are stupid when it comes to resigning players…they overpay mediocre players, and then just sit and hope they play good and win games. That will not happen. Championship teams bring in ex-talent, or mentors, or shooting coaches, whaterver their players need, and they develop mediocre talent into great players. Yea, luck always helps, and i hate to sound this negative, but i think this org luck ran out after they picked third in the first round in 1984. Thats it, no more luck left for the bulls. So waiting for luck isnt an option, i mean look they got lucky with the firt pick, and still nothing. The management is to blame for everything, from personnel hirings (VDN), to talent scouting, to developing players, to making trades. Everything this org has done in the last 10 to 12 years has been wrong. EVERYTHING
"All they do is mock me, just like they did the fat fellow. All the time mocking, mocking, mocking, mocking all the time! Now, it is Babu's turn to mock "---Babu Bhatt in the Seinfeld Finale Part 2
P.S.
"The fact of the matter is the chicago bulls have never been a contender since I left..."----Johnny Kilroy
by chi_till_eye_die on Nov 29, 2009 10:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
'84 luck
was portland taking sam bowie at #2.
the name of the team is The DIAMONDBACKS
by marionette on Nov 30, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wtf?
Vinny is still calling Kirk Kurt? I just watched him call him kurt twice.
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
by SoulEater7 on Nov 30, 2009 12:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Too much of this slow start makes no sense
After getting Miller and Salmons last year, the Bulls had an offensive rating of over 110. And even with all the crap on our roster, the Bulls offensive rating when Gordon was NOT on the court last year was 106.8. Yet now we lose Gordon, and suddenly our rating drops to 99?
So far, there’s only one thing I know for certain about this team, and it’s that Taj Gibson is really bad. His statistical offensive plus minus is around -4.8, and opponents have a 23.1 PER (82games.com) against him this year, worst on the team in both categories. It’s possible that he’s average defensively and just rotates over to guard players who blew by Rose/Salmons, leaving his man open for easy buckets, but that leaves his overall APM range somewhere between -3 and -8. After a strong preseason, I thought he could give us close to what Tyrus does, albeit without the longterm upside, but that’s wrong. The numbers say the drop from Tyrus to Taj is considerable.
Here’s to hoping Salmons/Rose/Miller/Hinrich return to form, Tyrus comes back sooner than expected, and Taj is relegated to typical #26 pick minutes.
by YaoPau on Nov 30, 2009 3:57 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Wow, word.
that is all.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Nov 30, 2009 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In fairness, the Bulls beat up on crappy teams in that end of year run with Salmons and Miller.
Miller had played his way into shape (look at his Sactown numbers to start the year, he was not so hot to start last year either) and so we only saw him at his mid-to-late season form. Salmons was always a big candidate for fluke rule regression to the mean and unfortunately all of this collided with an even worse version of the 2007-08 Kirk showing up to play this year (seriously Kirk is KILLING us, I can’t say it enough. He’s posting a 9.8 PER thus far this year and his much heralded defense has been absent on many a night).
All of that PLUS losing Tyrus for a considerable amount of time with injury, Rose regressing / being injured, and losing Gordon for nothing adds up to a pretty steep drop off in offense. And yes, Taj Gibson sucks a whole lot, but the difference between Tyrus and Taj doesn’t make up the whole difference between last year’s offense sans Gordon and this year’s team. It’s a significant piece of the puzzle, but the other stuff I mentioned probably matters just as much. I’d argue that Kirk and John’s absolute shit play so far has been the biggest culprit.
It’s truly a wonder that the Bulls are 6-8 right now, when their point differential suggests a 4-10 team, and they are currently ranked 25th out of 30 teams in the league by B-R’s Simple Rating System that incorporates schedule strength (the Bulls have a tough one) and point differential (the Bulls, as mentioned, have a right terrible one).
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Nov 30, 2009 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not sure what anybody else said, but yfbb intro was brilliant and sums it all up quite well.
We are really in trouble when a thread by yfbb is more enjoyable than anticipating or watching …
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
by exult463 on Nov 30, 2009 5:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
exult, you're a wacky dude.
I’m not sure whether that’s a compliment or not :-D
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2009 6:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oops I left off two words
“anticipating or watching the game”
It was a compliment, the write up was good reading, it was as optimistic as it could be under the circumstances, yet it didn’t hold back in telling the truth. Yet it told the truth without a lot of undue emotions.
I watched the first quarter and some of the second quarter of the Bull-Bucks game tonight and it was boring as hell, the Monday Night game of the week was better even while the commercials were playing.
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
by exult463 on Nov 30, 2009 8:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mean to kiss too much ass....
but I have noticed that yfBB has taken his criticisms in stride and synthesized the best parts of his pessimism with his pragmatism. He also has found a way to balance the more analytic and speculative potential for sports blogging.
Its too bad the Bulls are so unfortunate that this blog can’t maximize the range of its users, their critical scope and their steadfast commitment to the team—despite the periodic threats.
by Super-Structure on Dec 2, 2009 4:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well said.. At this point I'm more of a BaB fan than a Bulls fan
BaB members are idealistic and in love with the ideal/concept/vision of a winning championship caliber or near caliber competitive team. It’s better to be aligned with liked individuals.
The actual Bulls organizations is lunar and appears to be buried in pettiness and marketing with like regards to improving the product they market.
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
by exult463 on Dec 3, 2009 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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