Trade ideas: Hinrich for Kevin Martin / Ship out Salmons
by Sports2 on Nov 27, 2009 11:57 AM CST
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Bulls trade Kirk Hinrich, James Johnson ($11.1M this year, $10.7M next year)
Kings trade Kevin Martin ($10.6M this year)
Why this works for the Kings.
Tyreke Evans looks mostly like a wing player who would be well-complemented by a solid PG. The Kings don't have a solid point guard. It's unclear how well Evans and Martin will work together since they both appear to work best at the same position. Hinrich would fill the PG role and, because his salary declines over the next few years, constitute savings vs. Martin. Johnson is still a decent prospect, and if he turns out not to work, the Kings can save money by not picking up his options down the road.
Why this works for the Bulls
We are so screwed in the scoring department for this year it's not even funny. Martin seems like an ideal fit in that respect. He's a good scorer and a very good shooter from distance. In those senses, he seems like he'd be a very good player to fit between Deng and Rose. Defensively I don't think he's quite as good as Kirk, but I don't think he'd have a tangibly negative effect on team defense either. We'll live and die up front.
In the longer run, this is essentially a push financially, so it doesn't kill the idea of getting a 2010 free agent. We'd still need to ensure Salmons opts out, or is traded to have significant cap space, but that's been the name of the game up to this point anyway. With Martin in the fold, however, our reliance on a risky plan would go down quite a bit.
After the jump, another trade and some general thoughts for a Bulls plan for success
I started thinking of the K-Mart Hinrich trade in the context of someone on S2 suggesting Deng for K-Mart. Unfortunately, I don't know that Deng for K-Mart would do much for us. I sort of like the idea of Kevin Martin, but I don't know if trading Deng to get him makes us much different. He's rather less injury prone, but still pretty injury prone. I don't know if dollar for dollar he's much of a better risk than Deng.
The best case scenario for that is we've recreated the devastating Salmons/K-Mart attack the Kings had going for them last year. Oh wait....
Maybe we're better off just ignoring the risk of everyone's injuries and trying to combine Deng and K-Mart. I'd like it better than the Salmons/K-Mart movie, which was a bomb the first time around.
Beyond that, it fits into my thinking of a balanced offensive attack, by adding a true outside threat to complement Deng's mid-range game and Rose's ability to attack the basket. Getting Tyrus back and getting good production up front would be the ideal final step, but first lets focus on what we can control.
Speaking of control and Salmons, a concern especially after this sort of trade would be our prospects for free agency next year. We need Salmons to opt out, or we need to trade him for expiring contracts. Also, we need to worry about depth. If we trade away Kirk and JJ, even getting back a guard leaves us with no real backup PG. Trading Salmons leaves our depth on the wings iffy.
So the ideal situation would be a second trade that sends out Salmons -and, if we could manage it- pulling the plug on Pargo- and replacing them with real depth that could help us throughout the rest of the season, then be off our cap.
With those thoughts in mind, how about
Salmons for Keyon Dooling and Jarvis Hayes?
Salmons and Jerome James (and potentially a 2010 protected 1st rounder) for Mike Miller and Randy Foye?
Both of these trades would fill out the team with actual, somewhat capable depth without hurting our longer run position.
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Where can I sign up for trade #1?
Haha, the Kings are not trading Kevin Martin. And there is no way it would be for Kirk Hinrich and an unproven mid-1st round pick from a bad draft class rookie.
I firmly believe the Bulls have put all their eggs in the D. Wade basket. Trade 1 would counter that possibility.
Sac isn’t going to trade on of the league’s biggest scorer’s on the up for Hinrich and JJ.
The recent influx of trades being proposed are creative and usually work well for us, but most teams don’t want to give up their best scorer for Hinrich.
It’s kind of like if the Sixers offered us Andre Miller for BG last year, we’d of laughed that off.
Or like Andrew Bynum for Brandon Roy, no way Portland does that or even thinks about it.
Maybe I under value Kevin Martin
Is he really that great? I know it’s sort of weird for me to say that when I’m proposing we trade for him, but I’m just being pragmatic about it. He’s a very good player, and a valuable player, but my belief is the Kings fans look at him in a similar way as we look at guys like Deng, Hinrich, and previously, Gordon. He’s a good player, but not so good that he shouldn’t be traded if a better financial and on-the-court fit arises.
Tyreke Evans really looks like a future star to me, and he’s blossomed since he started replacing K-Mart. Perhaps they will fit next to each other, but it seems to me they might be looking for a better fit.
they might be, but I don't get them needing to rush and do so now
as dealing him for Kirk friggin’ Hinrich is indeed fairly low value.
Martin is good and signed to a reasonable deal. Stuff like ‘fit’ can wait until they’re actually ready to be a playoff team, for now they should keep the one good player they have and not deal him because they got another good player. That’d be so Bulls, and nobody wants that ;-)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions
The truth hurts.
But hey, we could do the same deal for Mike Dunleavy. He’s making his season debut tonight. And the Pacers are down by 24.
Why not include Tyrus on the deal to make it more appealing?
Bulls trade: Hinrich, JJ and Tyrus
Kings trade: K-Mart and Kenny Thomas (expiring contract)
And then send Salmons to Golden State
Bulls trade: Salmons
Warriors trade: Morrow and Claxton (expiring contract)
Bulls roster
Rose/Pargo/Claxton
K-Mart/Morrow/Pargo
Deng/K-Mart
Noah/Taj/Kenny Thomas
Miller/Noah
The Bulls could save money with these trades, could offer a great contract to a PF in 2010 and re-sign Morrow to a nice contract
2010
Rose
K-Mart
Deng
Bosh/Amare
Noah
Jannero Pargo = Larry Hughes 2.0
BECAUSE THEN WE WOULD SUCK.
No seriously. Please don’t trade TT and have no backup plan for the PF position. Taj Gibson is, to put it simply, not an NBA starter.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
Everything I've seen recently suggests that they'll try to trade martin
once he gets back from injury. Their team is clicking without him in the lineup. Not saying that hinrich would be the guy to get it done, but I think they’re open to trading him.
If one of the worst teams in the league didn't want Hinrich whats that tell you?
''My favorite player growing up was Kevin Garnett and he's now my least favorite player. ''-Joakim Noah
well actually, it makes sense that a better team would want Hinrich
he’s tailor-made for a contender that doesn’t need him to do much.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2009 8:30 PM CST up reply actions
ive talked to lots of laker fans
and they seem to think hinrich would be a perfect backup pg for them
shame they dont have much of value to us aside from kobe gasol.
Kirk for Farmar, Morrison, Mbenga
1. Expiring contracts
2. Off chance they’d actually be useful. Mbenga >> Aaron Gray. Farmar >> Lindsay Hunter. Morrisson >> okay… Morrison sucks ass.
Still, I’d probably roll the dice if we’re mediocre and close to the deadline.
by Sports2 on Nov 29, 2009 3:35 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Are all those deals expirings?
I would be happy with this deal as well. Kirk has just been absolute hot garbage thus far this year, but on the Lakers’ bench with all that talent surrounding him? He’d have most of his flaws hidden and would be able to come in and D up and he’d have a great shot at a ring, which would please his loyalists here at BaB.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Nov 30, 2009 6:56 PM CST up reply actions
Yep. Farmar and Morrison will be RFAs
Heh, it’d probably please The Org to send him off to greener pastures as well.
They probably don't think anything is wrong with their plan.
And that they’ll be contenders soon enough. If Hinrich cna be a piece for their puzzle, then he can be for the Bulls as well.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
I would be happy with this deal
Can we use Morrison like we used to use Larry Hughes? I could stand to watch the Bulls losing if Morrison shot 20 or so times a night and made an average of 5, just for the humor factor.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
Who said that? before his injury and before we got Rose
Hinrich was averaging 16 and 6 a game. Not to mentioned he made 2nd team on D. He is a leader and is capable of being a championship PG on a good team. Hinrich contract is declining and he is a great team player. If I were the King, I would listen to the Bulls offer for K-Mart if they include Kirk.
A Hinrich / Evans backcourt would be big, phyical and defensive. If I were the Kings I would make the Bulls take Beno’s contract in exchange for James. I would also make them include a 1st, JJ, Taj or the rights to Asik. The Kings would have a core of Hinrich/ Evans /Casspi/ Thompson and Hawes. The trade would improve their defense alone.
Homecoming
That
is the best you’re going to get out of Kirk, Kirk is more of a 11-13 ppg, 5-6apg game, he doesn’t shoot good enough or get to line enough to score 16ppg, Hinrich is better on a team that requires him to do less
by QUINTEN DALEY on Nov 30, 2009 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
Forget the fact
that he’s scored 16 points a game 3 times.
Believe Quinten when he tells you that Kirk is incapable of doing it.
Well he went from 20, to 23.5 to 24.5 PPG the last 3 seasons, without a good PG lately too.
He was averaging 30 in 5 games this year before getting hurt and his 3 point PCT has gone from 36, to 38, to 40, to 41.5 and was 44.7 this year in 5 games.
At 26, I think he looks to be a bit more valuable than Hinrich, no matter what Kings fans think or do not think.
Right, he's not a superstar, but he's not paid like it.
He’s better than Deng, Gordon and Hinrich but paid at the same price. If the Kings think he’s on their level, they’re foolish. I agree that the better Evans plays, the more Martin would seem to need to be traded. I think they could get more than Hinrich and Johnson, though. The guy is
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
I don't know if he's better than Deng
But at least same level (better scorer, not at all the defender, might be a shade worse because of versatility, and both have had their share of injury problems)….but he fits a need for us, and we should consider him.
Hell, I hate Iverson, but after yesterday I was like, damn we need something, why the f not. I mean worst case is he bitches and moans, best case is he scores 15-20 PPG and can walk right in our starting 2 guard, have Salmons in his more natural 3 and supplemental 2…..
I know it would mean luxury tax, but f that Reinsdorf, you’re fing shitty ass team needs it.
Seriously after we won our last game, or the game before I could see that it was all smoke and mirrors, and now I totally think with the injuries, etc we’re totally f-d…..
We’re shit.
Oh and why in the fing world did Vinny play Brad Miller and Aaron Gray together? Was that the worst fucking lineup the NBA has ever seen especially against a spread the floor C and a quick Paul Millsap….that was the 16 pt run/lead that cost the game….
I know we’re shorthanded, and there was foul trouble, but that was fucking ridiculous.
Hate this team right now….I want to like them….I hate them.
Sadly....through thick and thin....
Yeah, on a side note, the Gray-Miller twin towers lineup was a once in a generation sight to behold
And Gray completely missing the rim from 8 feet was pretty entertaining, but not in a way I’d pay to see.
It was entertaining because you knew it was gonna happen at some point
And seriously, what did Gray do all summer in a summer where he was trying to get resigned….did he just go to buffet after buffet after buffet, he looks ridiculously huge…why we resign these guys is beyond me….
Sadly....through thick and thin....
Almost Sweetney big if not bigger (and he's taller so I mean proportionately)
Sadly....through thick and thin....
he probably got out of shape because of the injury,
not being able to move, that sort of stuff.
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
I would give you that
If he wasn’t huge as a rookie and didn’t start putting weight on as the season went on last year.
It’s one thing to be big, but he’s gigantic….and still I’m sure Arroyo would have fit better than Gray on our team…
Sadly....through thick and thin....
I'm trying to be optimistic
Byars and 3 random other D-League guys would’ve fit better than Pargo on this team, too, by the way.
Pargo. REALLY?
I support the Tornado Release ... and Young Bucks.
just wait until
Jerome James gets healthy, think of the possibilities there.. three of the beefiest 7’ footers just waiting to get out on the court…
don't let the bed bugs bite
by Rex Grossman on Nov 27, 2009 4:50 PM CST up reply actions
ugh, what a joke that was.
anybody could see Gray sucks, him with Miller sucks more, and the best part is putting Noah at the scorers table for 3 minutes waiting for a whistle and watching the team sink in a hole in the meantime. Miller should’ve made the smart play and hacked someone simply so a sub could be made.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2009 8:33 PM CST up reply actions
Vinny still can't coach,
can’t make defensive or offensive adjustments, doesn’t know how to use his personel
by QUINTEN DALEY on Nov 30, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
My cursor screwed up...
…I meant to add that, short of Bosh, Wade, James, Stoudemire, etc., and hell, even if they made this exact trade, this would be about the best possible trade they could make.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
I agree...sort of...
Kevin Martin is a tall Ben Gordon…and paid like it…he would be loved by some, and loathed by others…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
He's better than Gordon.
He does everything the same except gets to the FT line twice as much. Those are easier points that make his efficiency shoot through the roof. He’s not a tall Ben Gordon. He’s a better Ben Gordon.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Ben is a better 3pt shooter, definitely more clutch. K Mart does shoot more FTs. At the end of the day, they are probably equal. I don’t see how he’s better. I don’t think K Martin is that great of a ballhandler to take his man off the dribble that often.
but obviously he does.
You don’t get that many FTA by not being able to take your man off the dribble.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
Nets wouldn't take Salmons
2010
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2009 1:43 PM CST reply actions
They've only got like $18M commited for 2010 as it stands. The cap will be $50-$55, supposedly
Thus, even with Salmons on board, they’ll have $25M in cap space.
But if they can get to $35 million in space, which might not be that hard....
….that’s James AND Bosh, for instance. That would go along with Harris and Lopez (and then Lee or Williiams or a Top-5 pick). And, it seems to me that they might actually be a team that wants it’s SG to play through their mistakes to start to develop. Maybe.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
True, and CDR has a pretty similar game to Salmons, just younger and cheaper
He was a favorite of mine for a second rounder a couple years back.
And honestly, if the Nets were actually healthy, I can’t imagine they’d be so bad. But then, I can’t figure out what’s going on there anyway. I looked at their last two box scores and the last couple of games they’ve finally gotten Harris and Lee back, but they’re playing them off the bench?
I didn’t know they bought into the Bulls “don’t start your best players at all costs mentality”. show me that team playing a reasonable rotation
1- Harris 26, Alston 20
2- Lee 36, Harris 12
3- CDR 30, Hayes 18
4- Yi (also hurt and the moment) 24, Najera 24
5- Lopez 34, Boone 14
And I’d say they’re still not good but approaching a 30 win team instead of a 0 win team.
I agree.
I could see how Salmons could help them if he were having a great year, but my guess is (and it’s not better than anyone else’s), they want to have one of CDR, Lee or Williams become a semi-legitimate starter (and one becoming a 2/3 backup) and they don’t really care about the number of games they win. It’s easy enough to point to how good Lopez is, Harris has the name recognition across the league that neither Deng nor Noah has, and if one of those three step up, if Bosh and James or Wade and Bosh or whatever, decided to come together, they wouldn’t care about the team not being “good enough”… like how I think it matters with the Bulls.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
THe Kings are hemoragging money
the Maloofs are losing money in the NBA and in Vegas. Instead of trading them the worthless Hinrich, I think something like
Chicago sends Ty Thomas and Jerome James
Sacto sends Kevin Martin.
I think more than anything Sacto wants out of that contract because Evans can replace Martin. A young prospect and future savings would work better than Hinrich’s worthless corpse. They already have Beno, why would they need Kirk?
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 27, 2009 2:43 PM CST reply actions
If they take Hinrich I bet they demand that we take Beno.
But overall K-Mart would fit well with Rose in the backcourt for years to come.
Homecoming
Kevin Martin is overrated. He’s a 6’7 Ben Gordon, great scorer but doesn’t really contribute anything else. Below average on defense and injury prone…and paid 11 million. No thanks.
by C Smoove on Nov 27, 2009 2:52 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Sactown only trades Martin if someone takes Udrih
They may be losing money in Sacto, but trading the current face of the franchise isn’t a good move to do unless you get some real value back from it or if you can get rid of some bad contracts. The Bulls would have to give up a Number 1 pick or take on a bad contract to get the Kings best player. Evans is doing better now without Martin, but I think the Kings will want to see how they play together now that Evans has confidence he can play in the NBA. Martin’s injury was actually a good thing because Evans was forcing things early on instead of letting the game come to him. I think Evans and Martin will be great for the Kings because Evans is actually a good defender and they can just stick Martin on the lesser offensive player. When Garcia comes back the Kings are going to have a solid nucleus to build around. If anything I think they trade Nocioni to a contender for cap relief.
How about...
Hinrich for Outlaw + Blake? This seems to be thrown around quite a bit on BE… I’m curious what Bulls fans think.
...and that's a good thing
I think that trade works, but Pax love #12.
and that trade all depends on if we trade for a low-post scorer or a SG scorer. We still need a true SG.
Homecoming
Old news. This should have happened this summer…but Pax got greedy and demanded Bayless as a Gordon replacement. This deal was a total no-brainer.
I know its old news, but what about right now?
Andre is looking pretty questionable right now in Portland. Outlaw (hurt) and Blake are both expiring contracts… And a lot of Portalnd fans are still in love with Hinrich. Why not try for this again.
...and that's a good thing
by In Walks Rudy on Nov 28, 2009 4:36 PM CST up reply actions
So what would you all do with Miller then, have him come off the bench. How much did you all pay him anyway?
I think we would look to trade him as well.
If he’ s happy coming off the bench (and he’s not) that would be great. And I think he’s making something like 7 mill. Too much for a backup.
...and that's a good thing
by In Walks Rudy on Nov 29, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
They tried that, but the Bulls
were insisting that Jared Bayless be apart of the deal
by QUINTEN DALEY on Nov 30, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
I'd actually be somewhat interested in a three team deal after December 15 (when Dre Miller can get dealt)
that looks like this:
Hinrich to Portland
Outlaw, Webster to Chicago
Dre Miller to Memphis
Mike Conley and Steven Hunter (expiring) to Portland.
Why the Bulls do it
- They are only taking back $ 7.9 million and sending out $ 9.5 million. Of that 7.9 million, 3.6 (Outlaw’s deal) expires after the end of the year. So the Bulls gain short term flexibility (an additional 1.6 million under this year’s lux tax, and get some expiring money for Kirk (more money for 2010 FAs).
- This deal also makes Salmons more or less expendable, which is a big deal for me, as I think he’s garbage and is going to opt in and fuck the Bulls’ 2010 plans over. Webster is good enough that you can play him at the 2 for a lot of minutes. Outlaw could totally replace Salmons’ role as the backup SF behind Deng and can also play some spot minutes as a stretch 4 in a pinch (thus relegating Taj to his proper role of towel waver next to Aaron Gray).
- Finally, Webster is an actual SG, not a PG or SF masquerading as one. He’s a very strong wing defender, has great size, and is a career 37% 3P shooter. He’s not a great offensive player, but he fits well next to Rose. Plus, he’s 23 years old. He’s basically like Thabo, only if Thabo had learned how to shoot and passed half as often. He’s locked up for 4 years and he’s a good fit next to Rose, I’d like to get him if we can’t get Rudy and I don’t mind that he’s not an expiring (which is generally what I would want for Kirk’s dead body).
Why the Blazers do it
- Steve Blake is a backup and doesn’t fit in a backcourt with Brandon Roy or Rudy F, because none of them play much defense. He’s not that great on O either, but he knocks down shots. Hinrich has proven that when he’s put next to high usage, efficient shooting guard and allowed to just focus on locking down his man and occassionally dribbling in circles, he can be very productive. He’s not a SG, and he’s not being properly used here. In Portland, he’d return to his best role and he’d allow Roy to be even greater than he already is.
- Dre Miller is not content to play a “role” for the Blazers and insists on being a starter (rightfully so, in my view, Steve Blake is not that good). So the Blazers need to find a home for him. Memphis needs a real PG and Mike Conley needs a restart to his career. Reuniting him with Oden will sell copy and might actually help Conley out (going from playing on a crap team to a very very good to great team has been known to do that: hello, Rajon Rondo!). Stephen Hunter is just expiring filler.
- The Blazers, as currently constructed, have too many players that need minutes. They have a number of talented players, though none of them (‘sides Roy and LMA) is really head and shoulders above his positional peers. They need some consolidation. This helps that and the fit is better and all that jazz. This is not to say that the Blazers don’t do well in this deal, I think they do very well, especially if Conley turns out to be good down the line.
Why Memphis does it
- Memphis has a pretty talented roster at most of the starting positions. OJ Mayo, Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph, and Marc Gasol is a foursome with loads of talent. Unfortunately for the Grizz, their PG play is not so great. Conley’s PER has plummeted to an 8.8 this year.
- Dre Miller is still a starting quality PG in the league and should be getting minutes somewhere. Memphis has terrible PG play. They sacrifice not much in this deal giving up Conley’s two year deal and Stephen Hunter’s expiring deal to take on Dre Miller for 3 years. Not a bad trade and probably the best value they can hope for if Conley keeps playing like garbage.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Nov 30, 2009 6:41 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I used up all my interest in Martell Webster last year
Now I just want expirings for Kurt.
I’m not sure I can buy the Griz taking on Miller’s salary when they’re in the midst of the Tinsley experiment, but maybe, as you say, in a a few weeks, things will change.
Tinsley signed for peanuts and I think he's totally washed up. If I'm right, Memphis will
figure that out pretty quickly and then they might be willing to grab Miller.
But the Grizzlies aren’t even necessary for the Bulls / Blazers part of the deal, I just included it to give a plausible place for Blazers’ org. to ship Miller off to in the event of an Hinrich acquisition. I’m sure there are other plausible options.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Nov 30, 2009 8:55 PM CST up reply actions
if we trade Hinrich to portland we ask for fernandez back.
no ifs ands or butts.
since roy continues to improve and rudy is kindof going into a shell a bit it just might be possible at this point where he was intradeable this time last year.
id throw in whatever we needed to match salaries
and even take on some long term salary that they might want to shed. since we shed hinrichs contract it should be a problem.
we then deal deng, tyrus, futuere #1 (salmons if necessary) at the deadline for whichever superstar free agent says to his org that he aint coming back.
or just dump tyrus to a team under the cap for a future #2 if we need to get under the cap. and worry about how to move deng next year if especially if salmons opts in.
I put K-Mart in the sam pool of players as Deng
K-Mart is a better scorer than Deng, but Deng plays better D, rebounds better and is a big for a SF. I think Kirk would fit well next to Evans on that young Sacto team. They really suck at D and he would improve that and bring leadership. If Im the Kings I would make the Bulls include Asik and take back Noce or Beno’s contract for Jerome James.
Homecoming
I like how everybody always hates on other team’s players. “Oh, Lamarcus Aldridge isn’t any better than Tyrus” “Oh I wouldn’t take Al Jefferson for Noah” “Oh Deng is as good as Kevin Martin” Really? If our players are that good then why the hell aren’t they, along with Rose, kicking some ass out there?
There’s no way Deng is as good as Martin. He CAN play as well as him at times, but is anybody really confident with Deng as the 2nd scorer on this team? Yes, he can make long jump shots, but it’s about as useful and efficient as playing a guy that can inbounds the ball very well. We need scoring. Deng is a good defender, but it’s not like we’re losing any games 83-80, has anybody been watching our defense the last few games?
Maybe it’s not as fun to have the mentality of “I love our players, but if we get a good deal I’ll love the players we get in the trade” but it sure worked with the Salmons/Miller trade last year. Salmons and Miller were not two of my favorite players prior to that trade, but down the stretch last year they certainly made me feel very happy about the trade and I welcomed them as a Bulls fan.
Now, neither have looked particularly great this year, but Miller is expiring and Salmons has a cheap option, so they aren’t long term costs. And it’s not like I’m longing for Nocioni or Gooden right now. Gooden would be fine backing up Noah, but so would Miller if we didn’t have to play him so often (Tyrus injury). I’d rather see JJ in there than Nocioni, no matter how bad Salmons or Miller gets.
Uh when was the last time Sac made the playoffs? tic toc tic toc........
Deng is a 3rd option on a championship team. He can score in the high teens and grab about 7 to 8 boards while guarding some of the best wings in the NBA. See how easy you can find a player like that?
Homecoming
Deng is a
non-athletic jump shooting SF. How hard is it to find a player like that? It seems to me that when people speak about the pluses of Deng, they talk about his ‘tools" and his projections more than what he actually brings on a nightly basis. That’s what the Bulls paid for, projections and metrics. They don’t value actual production.
Really who cares how Deng, Hinrich, and Salmons “measure up” when they can’t do it on a consistent basis? My God, Deng hasn’t been a good player in this league since 2006. Hinrich hasn’t been good since his big contract, and Salmons has never been good. Kevin Martin actually produces and like I always said about BG, I have the luxury of knowing what he does well. He scores. He’s a better at scoringr than anything that Deng or Hinrich does at all. I swear there have been games where I felt that Tyrus was a better pro than Luol Deng.
Again when was the last time the Kings went to the playoffs?
Deng also slashes to the basket and finishes well around the basket. His rebounding is off the charts for a SF. He had some injury and chemistry problems the past (2) years, but it seems to me he is the player everyone knew again.
The point I’m trying to make is K-Mart is not on the same level as Wade, Joe Johnson, Ray Allen, Kobe etc. His a good young player, but not the type of player you build a team around and the Kings know that now.
For the Bulls to make it to the promise land they have (2) holes to fill. They need a SG who can stretch the D. They also need to pair Noah with a PF or C who can score. I do however find it funny that the Bulls need what they once had (BG).
Homecoming
You are right, Kevin Martin is not Wade, JJ or Kobe. But he gets paid about 50-60% of what they make. Martin at 11 million allows us the flexibility to sign another scorer in a year or two, Deng at 10 and climbing to 14 million combined with Hinrich at 9 million, does not allow us that flexibility.
That’s really the point. Deng can be a 3rd option on a good team, but you’d be hard pressed to think he can ever be a solid 2nd scoring option on a good playoff team. Martin, on the other hand, is more likely to be a primary scoring option on a playoff team (albeit surrounded with very good players) than Deng is likely to be the 2nd.
Most likely, Martin is a very good 2nd scoring option and much better than any of our current scorers.
Actually, I'd like to hear a good smackdown between K-Mart fans and Joe Johnson fans
Not just their game, but also:
K-Mart will cost just under $11M next year. He’ll turn 27 in February.
Joe Johnson will cost something like $15-17M next year. He’ll turn 29 in June.
yeah, well
The Bulls reasoned keeping Hinrich even though he was 3 years older. I guess they don’t consider age a big deal, thus ‘rookie’ Taj Gibson :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 29, 2009 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
in that case (if I'm considered reasonable anymore)
I’d take Martin. If Johnson tails off even a bit, a max contract is really bad for a non-taxpayer team, and when Rose is due for an extension you’re paying big to Rose/Johnson/Deng with not much left for the frontcourt (as Tyrus is gone if they sign Johnson).
But if the choice is between Johnson at the max and nothing in the offseason…I’d just sign Johnson. This team needs talent bad.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 29, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions
I'm getting to the point where I think overpaying would be worse than nothing
At least for this team, with this ownership and this management. Yes, this team needs talent, but we know that if we sign Johnson at the max, the result will be management subtracting existing talent or not adding talent in other areas.
161-112
Number of games Joe Johnson has played in the past two years versus Kevin Martin. Not including the fact that he is injured again this year. He has only played one full season (80 games) since he was the focal point of the Kings offense. Johnson is a better passer, rebounder, and defender than Martin. Not that he is a beast on defense, but Martin is that bad on D. I’d only take Johnson at the max if we can pair him with a reliable Post option. If we can’t do that, then we stash our money away (unless we can get Bron or Bosh) and wait till Durant, Melo, or Howard become free agents. Rose is still young.
What about Deng and Hinrich for Martin and Udrih? Plus a filler called Jon Brockman. Kings get a legit PG to pair with Evans. They’d work nice together because Evans has SG height. They’d have a jam at SF, but can maybe ship out Nocioni and Kenny Thomas to Phili for Sam Dalembert to get some inside D which they lack. Hawes is soft. We’d have a shortage at SF till Martin came back, but then could shift Salmons to SF. I have no idea why the Kings would do this, but they have no reason to do the original trade proposed. I also may be reading (and praying) to much into this Lebron number switch. But I think he is switching his number because he knows he’s coming to play for the Bulls next year. Course I thought the same thing about Kobe when he switched to 24. 1 number higher than Jordan.
Rose
Martin
Bron
Whoever
Noah
Ah, dreams.
On what evidence is Johnson a better defender
Here’s a straight up comparison.
They’re similar rebounders, but by the numbers Martin has a slight edge. He gets to the line a lot more than Johnson.
The factors I see in JJ’s favor are that he’s been more durable and a better passer. But that’s pretty much it. Everything else tilts toward Martin or is a push.
You must like black humor.
I do however find it funny that the Bulls need what they once had (BG).
"Then you need a center so if the ball gets stuck between the rim and backboard he can reach up and knock it loose instead of having to spend 15 minutes trying to hit it with a broom stick." – Sam Smith
by Granny Waiters on Nov 29, 2009 3:32 AM CST up reply actions
The only thing is, if we have BG we are at least 7-8 million into the tax, and for what? Maybe a 5 seed and 2nd round exit if we exceed our expectations? I can see why they didn’t resign BG, but the other moves (Hunter, Pargo, Gray) are just leaving me shaking my head. Warrick was available on the cheap, as were dozens of other players that are a world better than Hunter, Pargo and Gray. It’s like the GM just mailed it in this offseason. I can just picture Gar or whoever made these decisions sitting on a beach somewhere, saying “fuck, we have 3 more roster spots? Uhhh… just resign that old guy who was here last year, uhhh Gray too, yea that’s two spots. Hrmmm… who should we grab for that third spot… how about Pargo? Ok, good offseason guys, see you in the fall.”
Imagine if Kurt had been traded for 2009 expiring contracts,
and Gray and Hunter were replaced by younger minimum salary players, and BG was on the Bulls for his current contract. Better team, better trade asset, and still under the tax.
"Then you need a center so if the ball gets stuck between the rim and backboard he can reach up and knock it loose instead of having to spend 15 minutes trying to hit it with a broom stick." – Sam Smith
by Granny Waiters on Nov 29, 2009 3:51 PM CST up reply actions
Imagine if Kurt
was traded for Roy.
No evidence that anyone would have given up 10 million in expiring contracts heading into the 2010 offseason. If fact i’d say there’s plenty of evidence that no one would have done that.
And a great shot at trading Gordon in a sign-and-trade for a superstar.
48-52 wins this year (maybe). Tell Wade, “Look how good we are. Our best players in Rose and Noah are only getting better. You’re way better than Ben Gordon. We can easily win 55 games next year and be right there with the Magic as the Celtics fade away. James is going to NYKnicks. Johnson is leaving ATL. We can give you 7 years, $140 million.”
And you try to work out a sign-and-trade with Miami.
And if you don’t get it and you don’t get any players, you’re stuck at 50 wins instead of 35 because you didn’t have to get rid of all your good players to make space and hope for the best.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Nov 29, 2009 11:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You can offer Wade 7 years, $140M.
But, he along with everyone else, would know you are full of shit (obviously)…a max contract in the NBA is 6 years.
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and LLE will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 30, 2009 8:18 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
By the way Deng is putting up 18 / 8 on 46% shooting and 60% from three.
Now if we can convince him to take more threes.
Homecoming
No doubt Deng has played very well so far this year. But he’s taken like what, five 3s and made three of those?
The problem with Deng is he’ll just catch the ball with one foot behind the 3 point line with 17 seconds left on the shot clock and just take the jumper with a hand in his face. That’s not a good shot for Ray Allen to take, let alone Deng.
Maybe he’s not being coached properly though. Maybe Vinny likes to use him on the outside and pushes that on the offense, I don’t really know.
I think it would be interesting when Noah is taking a breather to play a pick and roll with Deng and Rose. Worst case, Deng gets an open long jumper, best case Deng or Rose drive to the hoop on an open lane and if the big steps over they have a wide open Brad Miller10 feet out.
Instead, they just toss the ball to the top of the key to Miller, who gets the ball stolen or does the slow moving circus drive to the hoop, which seemed to work a lot better last year. Or we toss it to the corner to Deng, who puts up that contested 18 footer, or toss it to Salmons who holds the ball, measures up and either tries to take a faster player to the lane for a pullup or takes a longer, worse shot. Not exactly an offense anybody can excel in.
why is the bulls organization such pussies??
The team is in quicksand, drowning fast. 4 blowouts arent enough to scare some idiot in the front office to try something new? Some out of the box thinking? Iverson is waiting to be called by the dumbasses who call themselves management in the bulls front office..Why arent they taking a chance? Why arent they thinking, “fuck, we suck anyway, our team is in the shitter, why not try AI?”…How much worse can this team get? Chemistry? Fuck chemistry, you want chemistry go back to high school and take that shit over again. We need OFFENSE, not chemistry. But like ive always said, the bulls front office dont give a shit about about winning…as long as suckers keep buying season tix, keep buying $10 drinks, and $13 hotdogs, and jerseys, and caps, and etc etc…They are content, while we are over here racking our brains with trades, and who to look for, and who to draft….Fuck all that nonsense, do like I am doing and stop supporting this bullshit org, then they will be forced to do something to bring back the fans.
"All they do is mock me, just like they did the fat fellow. All the time mocking, mocking, mocking, mocking all the time! Now, it is Babu's turn to mock "---Babu Bhatt in the Seinfeld Finale Part 2
P.S.
"The fact of the matter is the chicago bulls have never been a contender since I left..."----Johnny Kilroy
by chi_till_eye_die on Nov 28, 2009 3:33 PM CST reply actions
Perfect Kings-Bulls-Blazers trade
I’ve been playing with different combos on the trade machine and I think I found the perfect trade for all 3 teams.
Bulls trade Hinrich, Salmons, Jerome James
Bulls receive Kevin Martin, Kenny Thomas, Steve Blake
Blazers trade Blake, Andre Miller, Outlaw
Blazers receive Hinrich, Salmons, ( and Sergio Rodriguez if they want him)
Kings trade Martin, K. Thomas, Rodriguez
Kings receive A. Miller, Outlaw, Jerome James
The Bulls do this trade to get Kevin Martin. He replaces BG’s scoring in a much more efficient package. The Bulls also receive a back-up PG in Blake plus two contracts guaranteed to expire at the end of the season roughly equivalent to Salmons and James.
The Blazers have long coveted Hinrich. He seems to be a better fit than Miller and is much better than Blake (even Portland fans are starting to realize that). Salmons helps replace the injuries to Batum and Outlaw. He is a seasoned scorer who should get a boost going back to his old position and old role as 3rd or 4th option.
The Kings get Miller, who would be a better fit for their current roster than Martin, while also making about 3 million less. The Kings also get $3 million more in expiring contracts to help them out at the end of the year.
This trade would solidify the backcourt for the foreseeable future without jeopardizing 2010. It should also improve the team to the point where we would be the favorites for the #5 seed.
Rose/Blake
Martin/Pargo
Deng/JJ
Tyrus/Deng/Taj
Noah/Miller
As an added bonus, it also improves the Blazers and helps the Kings. Looks like a no brainer. That is why it will never happen.
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 29, 2009 12:38 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
stinks for the Kings
again, who cares about the ‘fit’ when they’re receiving a player who’s 31 and just signed a 3 year deal?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 29, 2009 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
I've heard it said multiple times
that Kings are really in want of money. If that’s true, then the 3 million they save means more than it appears in a vacuum.
Let me get this straight -
The Kings trade their best player, a point guard that is delivering for practically free, and an expiring contract for an aging point guard (of which the KIngs have three already), a wing man (I think the Kings had 453 of these the last time I checked), and an expiring contract.
The Kings are not bleeding to death. They will make money this year. They are not going to fire sale Kevin Martin.
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I agree they won't fire sale Kevin Martin
and this proposal is probably not enough to get him, but you are insane if you think the Kings are making money. They got in the black by slashing payroll and jobs. They folded the Monarchs. They are losing money. Kevin Martin, because of his injury history and because of Evans, will eventually end up on the block. What it takes to get him, is up in the air.
As far as the Kings money troubles, there is this…
The Sacramento Monarchs unexpectedly folded today. The team was a WNBA pioneer and the only basketball champions to rule Arco Arena. Concerns for the Kings hastened the collapse, said team owner Joe Maloof. “We love the Monarchs, but it’s time to re-focus,” Maloof said. “Everyone in this business environment … you have to do what has to be done. Our focus is to turn the Kings around, and to do that, we have to put all our efforts and good salespeople on the Kings.”
http://www.sacbee.com/latest/story/2338081.html
and this…
“The people I have talked to in the NBA have told me that the Kings are going to be forced to move. They are not, especially in that political climate, going to get a new arena. No matter what the mayor says, no matter what the Maloofs say. Most of the people close to the team have told me they will try everything humanly possible to stay in Sacramento but that it’s not in the cards. I don’t know if Anaheim would happen, that would put three teams within 50 miles of each other, highly unlikely. But Kansas City has a new Anschutz (managed) arena, that’s a very likely possibility … and Seattle would like to get the Sonics back. You’re looking at maybe 3-5 more seasons in Sacramento and then after they’re going to have to find a place to play.”
and this…
If there is no arena solution in three years, the NBA won’t have to force the Kings to move. The Kings will move. This was the fear for next season … until the Maloofs promised they will not file for relocation this season. If there is no progress by next summer, this will again be a major fear. Not because the NBA will demand that the Kings fill Phil Anschutz’s coffers somewhere. But because the Maloofs will no longer be able to lose money (or put out 20-win teams trying to avoid losing money) with no arena light in sight. At some point sooner than 3-5 years from now, the Maloofs will get the hint.
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2009/10/16/1088265/the-maloofs-cannot-lose-money
and finally this -
For instance, after the trade deadline, The Sacramento Bee reported the Kings would have lost $25 million had they not dumped Brad Miller’s salary and bought out Mikki Moore, and the newspaper’s Kings blog reported team employees were no longer allowed to work overtime or eat dinner in the media room.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090227
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 4, 2009 2:48 AM CST up reply actions
Um -
You said it yourself – the Kings got back in the black by slashing payroll and jobs. It was (and is) the folding of unprofitable “assets” like the Monarchs and bloated contracts like Miller’s that enable them to hold on to a true (and very reasonably priced) asset such as Martin. Gavin Maloof has been quoted as saying that the team will make money this year. I’m not making this up. I have no reason to make this up.
I’m not insane. Quite the contrary, I am a Sacramento resident, long-time Kings fan and co-editor for Sactown Royalty, and I like to think that I have a fair and reasonable handle on the situation. All I said was that the Kings will make money this year (as stated from Gavin Maloof) and that Kevin Martin won’t be dealt in a salary dump. But if you’re pissed because I peed all over your inane and one-sided trade proposal, I apologize.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Who cares who you are?
They aren’t making money. If you are in so much danger of losing $25 million dollars that you have to prevent people from eating dinner in the media room and give away all your vets your franchise isn’t in a good position. I’m sorry if that truth hurts your feelings, but its the truth. The economy didn’t suddenly improve over the summer. The structural financial problems that threaten the Kings have not gone away. The Kings have been slashing payroll for the last 5 years. And I don’t think its to make a big free agent acquisition. The Kings were 1 of 12 NBA teams to take a loan from the NBA. The Portland Trailblazers PAID the Kings $3 million to take on Sergio. Please name one transaction the Kings have made in the last year that didn’t involve them saving money. I mean the franchise is in such good position that the community is looking for a promise that the team won’t move over the summer… but you are right. The Kings are a picture of financial health!
The fact of the matter is that Vegas is losing tourism money (you know, the Galoofs main business), and the Maloofs are cutting assets to make their portfolio stronger. Generally when you fold an asset, its a sign of poor economic health, despite what Gavin may say. I’ve seen nothing to suggest that the Kings are out of financial danger. One rosy projection by an owner looking to alleviate fan fears (so as to not repeat the Seattle debacle) doesn’t change the financial reality of an old stadium, a small fan base, and a horrible economy. One year making money after five years of losing money isn’t something to ring the cowbells about.
As far as the trade proposal – dude we just throw out shit here to see what people think. I could care less if you shit on the trade proposal – I was even happy to hear your input until you got all defensive as if you are in the business meetings with the Maloofs. You know the same shit I know – what is reported in the Sacramento Bee. But you try to have a nice day.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 4, 2009 10:25 PM CST up reply actions
Well, my family cares who I am
But that is of little consequence here, I suppose. You seem to have gotten awfully riled up here, and that was not my intent.
I agree with most of what you say. I think where we diverge is that you think that the Kings are still in a world of hurt because of the actions that they have taken, while I think that the actions that they have taken has solidified them.
Regardless, it is not my nature to visit other sites and upset the inhabitants. Blog-A-Bull is one of my favorite sites, and I’ll take my leave before this degenerates into something that is not worthy of this site. You try and have a nice day, too. Have a coke and a smile, and go Bulls.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
than we are agreed
we got worked up for nothing. I’m not much of a Kings fan but since I hate the Lakers, and was a big fan of Bibby, I have followed the team a bit. Evans is a stud – and judging by how the Bulls are run, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Kings were back on top long before the Bulls. No hard feelings.
by Basketball Smurf on Dec 4, 2009 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
I'd take Ben gordon over wimpy Kevin Martin any day ... why are we considering going in circles backwards?
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
'wimpy'?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2009 12:13 AM CST up reply actions
It's his 90s R&B superstar look.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Nov 30, 2009 12:27 AM CST up reply actions
Signing somebody for 10m a year and going into the tax quite a bit for a team that can’t win a title is much worse than trading some dead weight for the same caliber player and not having to go into the tax (or going 1-2m into the tax compared to 7+m).
That’s the key. If the org said in the offseason “we will sign BG or KM (theoretically assuming they were both available)” then I would agree with you and probably opt for BG, if only because he’s been here this long.
They look similar to me in skill and cost, etc. maybe KM has more upside, but BG has been better overall to this point I think.
Three way 76ers-Kings-Bulls Trade
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
Bulls Get – Kevin Martin, Jason Kapono, Franc Garcia
Kings Get – Deng, Hinrich, Dalembert, Willie Green
76ers get – Nocioni, Kenny Thomas, Beno Udrih
Bulls save money off next years cap. Get a player that fits a need. Main deterent is lux tax this year.
Kings ship out four long term contracts while taking on two. They unclog their swingman glut by shipping out Nocioni and Garcia and only bringing back Deng. They shave off two million this year in the cap. Thus saving four million this year. The Kings are loaded with bad contracts. Their payroll is almost 100million. And they are locked into long term deals, and have to think about resigning Hawes, Jason Thompson and Evans. Contracts will favor the owners after the next CBA because they have all the leverage.
The 76ers are the hardest people to reason why this trade makes sense. They take on longer contracts and more money this year. However, they aren’t getting underneath the cap anytime soon with Brand on their team. So they need to try and build a playoff caliber team. Despite the hate he gets on here, I like Nocioni in a sixth man role. Provide some toughness for that weak 76ers team. They also need a reliable PG since Lou Williams is out for at least two months. Depends how bad the 76ers want to rid themselves of Dalembert.
Ammendment to trade above
In order to make more sense for the 76ers I added the Cavs in a four way deal.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine
New trade
Bulls Get same as above
Kings get Delonte West instead of Willie Green
76ers get Ilgauskas
Cavs get Nocioni and Willie Green
This gets 76ers expiring deals for Dalembert and makes much more sense. Cavs are desperate to win now. Hurts their cap flexibility next year, but the cap is going to go down and they aren’t going to be low enough to offer two max contracts (I also fear the Bulls might not be low enough). This trade actually makes the Cavs 1 win better this year according to the trade machine.
Clarification from Sacramento
First, the Kings are not bleeding money. In fact, the Maloof’s have already stated that the team will at least break even this year. So Martin will not become salary dump fodder.
Next, Martin is better than fair value at his current contract, so he will not be dealt unless something tangible is gained in return. Hinrich (for example) ranks behind Evans, Beno Udrih and Sergio Rodriguez in PER, so I don’t think that the KIngs would see him as any kind of upgrade.
The noise that you’ve heard about Martin being dealt is coming from everywhere but Sacramento. The guy has a true shooting percentage of 58%, and he was showing improvement defensively before his injury. There is no doubt in anyone’s mind that Martin has the game, mind and attitude to adjust to his teammates. He has never really thought of himself as “the” guy, and he will have no issue defering to Evans in the long run. At his contract, Martin is a value priced 2nd or even 3rd option. And there is no doubt in Sacramento that Martin and Evans can play in the same backcourt.
Now, could someone please get the Bulls in gear? Please? They are me 2nd favorite team, and I have no illusions about the Kings making the playoffs this year.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
Oh -
And sorry about Salmons. It sure looked like you got the better end of that deal last year.
SACTOWN ROYALTY - Try our thick creamy shakes!
How dare you, Kirk Hinrich could start for a majority of the teams in this league
or was it the Spanish league?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 2, 2009 11:56 PM CST up reply actions
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