If not 'why bench Thomas?', then how about 'why start Taj'?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 20, 2009 10:50 PM CDT
412 comments
After reading about Tyrus Thomas not being given (oh no! entitlement!) his starting job back in the latest preseason game, I promised to you all that I wouldn't go too far into the macro-level implications of such a move. And I still won't, until it actually happens. And while it seems far-fetched, remember that this is the same team that started Thabo Sefolosha on opening night last year.
(and actually, it's tough to really care about anything besides Rose's bum ankle. As that, plus a tough early schedule, could have this whole thing off the rails by Thanksgiving. Is it too late to revise my projected win total down to 36?)
But since Doug Thonus at ChicagoNow is actually coming out and advocating the move by reasoning of 'team success', we can put that 'big picture' reasoning as to why benching Tyrus could be a disaster on the backburner (it's simmering, I assure you) and get to how it'd effect the team this year.
I think the Bulls should start [Taj] in a Chris Duhonesque way where he's the first one out of the starting lineup, but limiting the minutes where Noah and Tyrus are on the floor together is a good thing.
Firstly, I never thought I'd see Scott Skiles' self-sabotage as a positive example of strategy...
But I do get why one would (again, for purposes of winning games this season and being completely blind to the franchise tailspin) want to limit the Thomas+Noah lineups. All the best lineups last season included Brad Miller, and you can see how Noah and Thomas duplicate eachother in skillset a bit too much.
But to make sure Taj Gibson started and got at least 12 minutes a game? Thonus doesn't really expound on why Taj starting is a better idea...
Tyrus didn't do anything to make his case over Taj during the game as they had similar box scores on the night, and Taj looked like the more aggressive and assertive player from the half of basketball that I got to watch.
This is, of course, pure hot garbage. But I assume Thonus isn't just basing things on one game he sort of watched. Maybe he's crediting Taj with being the smarter player, as Taj's shown good defensive instincts and fundamentals (outside of the rampant fouling, though more than a few of those fouls is because he's the only one helping).
Maybe it's been Taj's surprising jumpshot that has Thonus thinking he's a better fit with Noah than Thomas, but it's not like Taj has much range on the shot, and as a 66% foul shooter in his last season in college it's very possible we've seen a bit of a fluke. Thomas has had longer stretches of good jumpshooting anyway, and in regular season games.
But the main problem with the Noah-Thomas frontcourt is a deficiency in defensive rebounding, helping make the Bulls 28th in that category last season.
And during Taj's rave-worthy (by me only relative to expectations) preseason, it includes a defensive rebound percentage of 14.3%. To put this in perspective, while one of the more worrisome trends in the career of Tyrus Thomas is his falling DREB%, and last season was his worst in that area...it was still nearly 19% that year.
(and as an interesting note on those preseason stats, basketball prospectus recently did a study and found that rebounding stats translated fairly well...though if anything that doesn't hurt Taj's case. If you want to hurt that case, one could add that the Bulls preseason is especially meaningless given their cruddy opposition.)
(and while I do think Taj has shown some solid team defense fundamentals, for all of Taj's smarts he's turned over the ball (his hands' fault more than his head's) at a way higher rate than Thomas did last season)
So even taking away the big-picture implications of sitting Thomas in his contract year and how it could effect the team and locker room all season, doing so to start Taj Gibson makes no sense to me. He's not nearly as good as Tyrus (amazing, and a bit detestable, that it's even become a discussion), and doesn't fit the team better either.
(Though when it comes to me and starting lineups, you can nearly always stop after deciding 'who's better?'.)
But of course we can't think in such simple terms anyway, everything's connected. And as Thonus concludes in his post with "I'll error to the side of Joakim and Gibson starting together simply because both players are likely to wear the uniform next year while Miller and Tyrus are both free agents.", it just reaffirms how bizzare this season is, with a franchise trying to make the playoffs while possibly stripping the whole thing down at the same time. Not to mention Vinny Del Negro eager to screw up an obvious 7-man rotation he barely needs to touch. It leads to situations where a surprisingly good preseason from a rookie leads to legitimate fear.
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Countdown til "Thomas coming off the bench makes our second unit stronger"
Or some such B.S.
Thomas and Noah are (supposedly) two important young building blocks for the franchise, and I’d rather see them at least TRY to work out whatever shortcomings they may have as a duo rather than attempt to hide the problem by starting a rookie. The goal of the year isn’t to compete for a championship, it’s to show growth as a unit, and I don’t see how the unit can show real improvement when two of the five most important pieces are being prevented from playing with each other for a pretty decent chunk of time each game.
Unless for some godforsaken reason Taj is seen as a more important piece for the future than Tyrus (shudder).
by jpm356 on Oct 20, 2009 11:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree with Thonus
Doug hasn’t even given Tyrus and Noah a chance to jell yet this season. When Tyrus had his best stretch of play last season, he was playing next to Noah. The Bulls made the playoffs with Tyrus and Noah starting. They have won like 4 preseason games with Taj and Noah. Can we slow it down?
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 20, 2009 11:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The funny thing is the notion that Tyrus and Noah can't succeed together is wrong.
The Bulls best lineup last year (with the personnel we have remaining) was Rose, Hinrich, Deng, Thomas, and Noah.
http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.php?sortnumber=17&sortorder=DESC&team=CHI&year=2008-2009
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 20, 2009 11:50 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
In that same data set, the Bulls were pretty successful with
Hinrich, Gordon, Salmons, Tyrus, Noah. Of course, that lineup is out now because of no Gordon, but still, the principle that its impossible for Noah and Tyrus to ever play well together is wrong.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 20, 2009 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just can't tell if Vinny is serious or what the hell is going on...
Between Rose’s achilles and this Tyrus Thomas abandonment I’m at a loss for words. I expect both to be starting against the Spurs and I’m hoping this is some kinda front.
However is this is true and Vinny does bench Thomas (which I think is aconite) this will be a very turmoils start to the season. No Rose and Tyrus coming off the bench? To what is already a tough start with Boston and SA.
They would also be flat out liars! After all Vinny’s whole deal was to develop Tyrus and Noah. Thats what he said in his press conference right? This whole summer Tyrus has looked good thing too, what about that?
Why don’t they like Tyrus? Is there something behind closed doors? I think Vinny is playing with fire here unless there is something we don’t know about. Or it’s about money. I think the only thing that could quite me down is if they has some grand 2010 we don’t know about. I know Tyrus isn’t perfect but come on now and i like Gibson but he’s still so raw. Tyrus is muh baby! You know when TNT comes to town you’re thinking I wanna see that freak Tyrus block/ dunk on the other team that just totally demoralizes them.
The ffffffffffffffffffffffffk is this crazy talk?
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 12:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I feel like this is what my spanish homework used to look like to native speakers.
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 12:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish I could delete it.
trust me.
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post....so many solid points,which is why I feel like barfing when trying to analyze
the reasoning behind what is taking place in master psychologist VinnyDelSimpleton’s head other than rapid hair follicle expansion.
-————————————————————————————————————————————————————
- I never thought I’d see Scott Skiles’ self-sabotage as a positive example of strategy…
- being completely blind to the franchise tailspin
- to start Taj Gibson makes no sense…..He’s not nearly as good as Tyrus (amazing
and a bit detestable, that it’s even become a discussion), and doesn’t fit the team
better either. - it just reaffirms how bizzare this season is, with a franchise trying to make the
playoffs while possibly stripping the whole thing down at the same time. Not to
mention Vinny Del Negro eager to screw up an obvious 7-man rotation he barely
needs to touch .
-————————————————————————————————————————————-
I have nothing to add other than my opinion that these observations show Vinny to be an insecure control freak who feels it’s more important to establish that he’s in charge (Mussolini syndrome?) than to do what is necessarily best for the team. This attitude emanating from someone who himself “has not paid his dues” doesn’t engender either respect or confidence in those he is supposed to lead, teach and inspire. But I’m pretty sure Taj loves him while Hunter sits on the bench laughing all the way to the bank.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on Oct 21, 2009 1:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED FOR VINNY ALREADY
Look at what’s happening guys, look at what happened last year with BG (being benched and everyone debating if he should be resigned) who was under the same circumstance with him being in a contract year, then look at how the season ended last year with Tyrus in the playoffs. The Bulls have tried their best to make us believe Tyrus had a awful playoff series while Noah played so great(and this is not bashing Noah). The Tyrus benching and criticism sets things in motion for his lowballing at best in the big contract year. Tyrus by the way had a good playoff series, and contrary to what most believe Big Baby Davis didn’t do most of his damage while Tyrus was on the court and that is a fact I challenge any to look up!
Here’s what’s so cunning about what Vinny’s doing, if you start Taj who is a good player and will fit right in with this Bulls system, it will naturally put the thought in Bulls fans minds to just start Taj. Tyrus isn’t popular in the Chicago media like Noah or Rose, as a matter of fact it’s strange how almost every Chicago Bulls writer or game caller has so many criticisms to Tyrus game. Before the game Monday night, they (King and Neil Funk) showed Tyrus stats from the game vs Minnesota but they made a note to also highlight, “Coming off the bench”, like he did well from that position as the rookie Taj gets nothing but praise. Stacey even remarked about Tyrus Minnesota performance saying, “Well his legs were fresh” as if that’s why he was the best player on the court that day. I know Tyrus also played in the final minutes Monday, but he played the SF position offensively, he’s not even mastered the 4, are you telling me Vinny has so much trust in Tyrus when just a few months ago he was yanked out of every game when the score as close and the Bulls had the ball! I honestly think they’d assume Tyrus wouldn’t play well at his position and it add more fuel to the start Taj fire that’s bound to kindle. Tyrus being put at the SF is sign enough Tyrus already lost his job, you mean to tell me Vinny is gonna put Tyrus at the SF position and have Salmons on the bench? You better believe every time Tyrus misses a few shots, or an error occurs, it will be used against him.
by Mr Rhythm on Oct 21, 2009 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
REMEMBER MY POST 5 DAYS AGO FROM "Tyrus Thomas ...... a 20/10 man?"
Tyrusmancrush, you know I dig Tyrus However I’m almost 99 percent sure Tyrus is gone! It was apparent the way Vinny used hm in the playoffs. Look at what BG did last year and the organisation didn’t even offer him a deal to return. The same mixed reactions people had about BG, they now have about Tyrus, I wonder why? The organisation will let Tyrus play hoping he doesn’t succeed, so that his not being resigned will be easier on them. The problem is Tyrus is only 23, coming off of a year where he grew as a player and is only gonna get better, especially when he gets a coach! So I do expect great things from him but the reality is the coach and organisation do not have Tyrus in there future goals. I also believe Tyrus will get close to 16 points a agame at least, and Vinny will no doubt try to limit Tyrus minutes so they can play the forwards of the future Taj and JJ!
by Mr Rhythm on Oct 16, 2009 6:13 AM PDT
by Mr Rhythm on Oct 21, 2009 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does this blog get so melodramatic?
“it just reaffirms how bizzare this season is, with a franchise trying to make the playoffs while possibly stripping the whole thing down at the same time.”
WTF?
The Bulls have had an injury plagued preseason. There isn’t a rotation. Starting Taj in game one doesn’t mean that’s the rotation, it means it’s what the coaching staff sees as the best line-up to start game one.
Let’s see how many minutes Tyrus plays and who closes out games. I am dying to see the team’s rotation.
“Stripping the whole thing down” is jumping the shark tank … in October.
by Noe_Valley on Oct 21, 2009 1:44 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I would agree BUT...
VDN did the same thing last year with Thabo, as yfbb pointed out.
Fool me once shame on you.
Fool me twice shame on me.
I don’t trust VDN to make a good decision, do you?
Maybe, hopefully VND will prove me wrong here and start Tyrus. But history has proven that is not a given with this coach.
by 72-10 on Oct 21, 2009 7:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"coaching staff sees as the best line-up to start game one"
I am curious, how many playof teams start the 26 pick in the draft day one as part of their best line-up (non-injury of starters please)? And even if that is true why was that player not picked with your earlier pick in the draft to ensure you would not miss out on that specific talent if they can step in and start?
Most good teams start their best players and let them play most of the game so you can strategically have your best players going against the other teams best players for the longest period of time.
by bullschwaa on Oct 21, 2009 7:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If and when that happens I guess you should totally freak out...
Until then let’s all try and recognize the PRESEASON for what it is.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are talking the last few games of preseason.
When teams are rolling out their real starting lineup when possible. Tyrus is healthy. He should be starting.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Real starting lineups (emphasis on "when possible")?
That’s a joke right? We don’t even have our best player (Rose) out there with ANY lineup. It’s just not possible! This preseason is completely meaningless for determining the best lineups until we get our best player out there.
Jumping on VDN at this point does seem like melodrama until we play a game that matters and then he screws up… Which could (and probably will) absolutely happen.
Until then… So what?
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And just to clarify...
Tyrus should start at the beginning of the season, and I have no reason to believe he won’t.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which could mean...
That VDN is using this brief time to determine the best lineups for those rare occasions when Rose won’t be on the floor in the regular season. Who knows?
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
but why didn’t VDN give Tyrus the vote of confidence when asked about the starting line-up? He should have said, “this was an injury precaution, it’s the preseason, don’t read anything into it…” etc etc etc..
But he didn’t say that. Just like he didn’t commit to starting Gordon last year. And it’s VDN.
These are all reasons for concern.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Oct 21, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
More like reasons to blog...
Personally I’ll be concerned if it happens when the games mean something.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Tyrus has a decent game Friday and Taj plays well its a wrap or...
If you see Tyrus playing more 3 than 4, it’s a wrap. I have said before the first problem Tyrus had was being drafted and told he was a 3 man, now in his 4th year, they’re still moving him around instead of teaching him one position to play. Taj I bet starts Friday, and unless Tyrus has another performance like he did vs Minnesota he will not start guaranteed!
by Mr Rhythm on Oct 21, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then why bother starting Deng either?
Why not have Hunter, Pargo, JJ, Gibson, and Noah start? Since it doesn’t matter because Rose is out. Who cares about the chemistry of the starters?
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because somebody has to play, but maybe you are right we should totally see this as EXACTLY what will happen in the regular season...
Dramatic much?
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now that's the best idea I've heard..
Given him a plane ticket back to sudan or england or wherever the “happy” place he’s from…
"I tried being reasonable, I didn't like it."
"Go ahead, make my day"
"We boil at different degrees"
"A good man always knows his limitations"
"You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk?"
by exult463 on Oct 21, 2009 11:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
as I said
this was just reacting to someone advocating the move, not the possibility of it happening (though I said with Vinny, fears are valid).
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see that...
Advocating that move is very unwise, for so many reasons, and I do agree that with VDN fears are of course valid. I’m holding out hope though that he too will improve this year… Crazy as that might be.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Tyrus Fade in the Celtics Playoff series?
How many coaches would automatically start a player who could contribute meaningful minutes in a playoff series?
Good teams let players earn their minutes. Tyrus is inconsistent. Giving his minutes in this tough fall stretch would cost the Bulls games. Playoff teams win games, and do not not develop 4 year players at the expense of a win.
by Noe_Valley on Oct 21, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fade?
or was benched? Reportedly he had some tiff with VDN, which couldn’t have helped.
Good teams have players good enough to be given jobs. Taj hasn’t proven shit.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What games were you watching?
You’re right giving Taj minutes over TT will lead us to more wins…I give up
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"How many coaches would automatically start a player who could contribute meaningful minutes in a playoff series?"
A lot?
Also, Tyrus kind of won Game 1 of that playoff series, and then he got benched as the series went on. Yeah.
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 21, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that this might be overreacting
Just as we don’t value the opposition because its preseason basketball, I don’t really care who VDN starts because its preseason basketball.
Yes, he was stupid enough to start Thabo Sefolosha last year, but I’m hoping that he’s learned from some of his (many) mistakes. Also, I guess I just don’t care who starts nearly as much as I care about who’s getting the most minutes.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 7:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAt least Thabo's starting this year for the Thunder.
I’m skeptical Tyrus is going to be any more thn what he was last year. Inconsistent.
That inconsistent play, the god part, will get him a good contract by a desperate GM but maybe not in Chicago.
by Noe_Valley on Oct 21, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Thunder will be lucky to be a 35 win team despite the presence of Kevin Durant
VDN shouldn’t put a feather in his cap about starting someone barely good enough to start on a terrible team
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Oct 21, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but Harden is better, and he really shouldn't start.
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 21, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, Thabo can start on a lottery team.
Huge accomplishment there.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 21, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed about total minutes being important
but what hurts us is that other teams play their best 5 first…not to mention the damage to Tyrus’s poor head.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I forgot which broadcaster said it
but I remember in the heyday of the Skiles-Duhon love affair, someone advocated benching Gordon because it gave the team confidence knowing they had Gordon waiting to come in and bail out a deficit :-D
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
this comparison is stale and pointless
the difference between Taj and Tyrus is minimal
the difference between Duhon and BG is about 3 times the width of the Grand Canyon
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference between Taj and Tyrus is pretty significant. Tyrus is a much better
rebounder and scorer. He’s also better at not getting fouls. Tyrus is better across the board.
The difference isn’t as great Duhon v. Gordon, but it’s still big enough that there shouldn’t even be a debate over who starts.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and sometimes Tyrus isn't better.
Consistency is better than hot and cold.
Taj is probably a safer bet to give the Bulls some consistent team defense while Tyrus loses focus.
Bulls want Tyrus to rebound and play some consistent defense. If they can’t get even play out of him they’ll go with a guy they can count on to be consistent and plan a game around those pieces.
by Noe_Valley on Oct 21, 2009 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus is better. Taj is not THAT consistent. He's had good games (19 and 9)
and pretty crap games (fouling out in 20ish minutes). He’s not more consistent, his highs just aren’t as high as Tyrus’s (22 and 13 in 25 minutes).
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, 6 preseason games=consistency.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 21, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
consistency?
I’d rather have a player who will have a bad stretch once in awhile than a player who is consistently below average…
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taj hasn't played a single regular season game yet
I’m sure he’s the most consistent player in the world in the NCAA. Maybe the Bulls should play there?
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 22, 2009 4:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
where is all this taj consistent stuff coming from?
he’s never set foot on an NBA regular season game court
"...but the devil lives inside this kid, I swear it. It rises out of him in a mist, this baby-faced defiant wrathful version of Pat Kane, escapes his bodily confines to perform satanic miracles all over the offensive zone. The only thing more fearsome than that assist was the keep-in preceding it. The only thing more unholy than his face is his black magic." GMH
by Illini0509 on Oct 22, 2009 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I too am confused by the
“Taj is consistent” argument. Tyrus should be our starting 4, no question. Lack of intelligence on the coach’s part is the only reason he won’t.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Oct 22, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that last part was a joke right?
and to be honest, I don’t think you’re going to see much of a difference between the two.
I’d hope that neither of them are in our plans for the long-term, because I don’t think either has the skill-set to help us win a championship.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
eh..kind of.
I think if TT doesn’t start, it will hurt his game. And yeah, maybe i’m in the minority here but I believe TT has the talent to be part of a championship squad…but yes he’s definitely not in the Bull’s long term plans..whatever that may be.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if he's that fragile, then I don't care if we keep him or not.
for comparison’s sake, Carlos Boozer hasn’t been promised anything and despite his flaws, he’s done a hell of a lot more to demand a starting job than Tyrus Thomas.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what? Boozer didn't demand anything
because there was no doubt. Despite the fact that he is not part of Utah’s future plans they recognize that for the sake of chemistry, and having the best players on the floor, Boozer should start. And really hasn’t been much of a question in Utah.
Tyrus is both better than Taj and more experienced than Taj. If you ever want to know if the 2nd pick in the draft was worth it, you have to play Tyrus minutes. Its not like the guy has never produced. When given minutes, he has produced. If you don’t value him at all, than trade him, because it will be a chemistry problem all season.
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 21, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/120552
there has been question about whether or not Boozer is going to start.
and who cares if Tyrus is better than Taj? He’s still not one of the better power forwards in the league, and so I don’t care if he gets promised a starting job. And btw, that draft pick was Lamarcus Aldridge. We traded down for Tyrus.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i know about the trade
but we essentially used a 2nd pick to get the guy we wanted – Tyrus. So spare me the history lesson
Who cares if Tyrus is better than Taj? Okay, if that isn’t relevant than I don’t know what the point of discussing this is.
Most teams like to start their best players though to ensure they get the most minutes. It kind of weird, I know.
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 21, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
most teams don't bother arguing over two mediocre players either
obviously, the bulls aren’t most teams.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are right
most teams don’t designate which players are starters or not. They just pick out the stars and than roll dice to see who starts with them. Fisher or Farmar – who cares? Not the Lakers. Ilgalskus or Shaq – who cares? Not the Cavaliers. This is brilliant stuff.
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 21, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice job responding to what I said. "brilliant stuff" as you claim
I said ‘mediocre’ players. Fisher starts over Farmar because Farmar is mediocre and Fisher is consistently average. Shaq starts over Ilgauskas because Ilgauskas shows his age more and more every year, while Shaq can still put up good numbers.
Tyrus is not consistent. He’s not even above average. If he was, this team and its fans wouldn’t have been howling about how we need a frontcourt scorer for so long.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't get your rating system
one guy is mediocre, the other guy is average – isn’t that the same thing? Whatever. If you want to act like Tyrus and Taj are the same player who have accomplished the same things over the course of their careers, there is no point in arguing. You’ve already made up your mind.
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 21, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, its not the same thing
by definition medicore is of “low-quality”. average is not.
and of course Tyrus has accomplished more; he’s played in the league for 3 years already.
Luke Ridnour has been in the league for a while too, but that doesn’t mean he automatically gets the starting job over Brandon Jennings (or anyone else for that matter) because he hasn’t done nearly enough to have that role.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"by definition medicore is of "low-quality". average is not."
really?
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're actually wrong.
mediocre means ordinary or moderate in quality. it can sometimes mean low quality, but it is not exclusively defined as such.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/mediocre
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually, I'm right
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mediocre
I’ve got my degree in mathematics, and nowhere along the way would it have been acceptable to replace the concept of average with mediocre.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are so argumentitive, hahaha
and you have little to no point. average is listed as a synonym of mediocre. Words can have multiple meanings – but as a math major, I wouldn’t expect you to know that. You understand that the definite of average in mathematics is different than its definition in other usages?
mediocre:adjective – second-rate, average, ordinary, indifferent, middling, pedestrian, inferior, commonplace, vanilla (slang), insignificant, so-so (informal), banal, tolerable, run-of-the-mill, passable, undistinguished, uninspired, bog-standard
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 21, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
double major in math and english actually
average has a very specific meaning: there is an equal amount of data both above and below the average. that’s why its often replaced with the mean. by definition, it doesnt mean low quality.
and I’m only arguing because someone else brought it up.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm loving this argument
average when used as an adjective means -
adj
1. usual or typical
2. mediocre or inferior his performance was only average
3. constituting a numerical average the average age an average speed
4. approximately typical of a range of values the average contents of a matchbox
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 21, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
as long as we're picking nits here
average is generally regarded as being equivalent to the mean, which is the sum of all data divided by the number of data points. the data point for which an equal number of greater and lesser data points exist in the set is called the median. not the same as the average/mean.
and i’m just a lowly engineer…with only one major to boot…
i'm hot for teacher
by DLRoth on Oct 21, 2009 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wikipedia:
In mathematics, an average, central tendency1 of a data set is a measure of the “middle” or “expected” value of the data set. There are many different descriptive statistics that can be chosen as a measurement of the central tendency of the data items. These include arithmetic mean, the median and the mode. Other statistical measures such as the standard deviation and the range are called measures of spread and describe how spread out the data is.
What’s interesting to me is how our educations influence our language. I have some engineering experience and I never remember median being relevant.
So it’s natural you’d gravitate toward mean as THE primary meaning of average.
As an economist and political scientist, I’m exposed to both, and for many things median is more accepted than mean. Most political scientists and welfare economists would look askance at you if you provided the mean value when discussing average family income.
As an English major, it’s reasonable to see how mediocre has come through repeated accepted misuse to also mean below average, even though it’s perfectly acceptable to mean average.
Is there any other facet of life, aside from language, where growth comes from the misuse of the thing away from its intended purpose?
by Sports2 on Oct 21, 2009 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NORM!
come on, don’t be such a claven.
i'm hot for teacher
by DLRoth on Oct 21, 2009 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oops that was supposed to go further down
software acting weird…
i'm hot for teacher
by DLRoth on Oct 21, 2009 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is his argument mediocre or average?
Do we have a large enough sample size to tell? Maybe we should ask a jury of his peers?
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
My degree is in English Lit
but your link says “of moderate OR low quality”
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're a douche.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
get more upset over the internet
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
just as long as everyone puts their advanced degrees on table
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
ugh way to overreact
I regret saying that quite a bit, but the fact that this is even an argument is ridiculous.
my point was Derek fisher is the norm for an nba pg, and jordan farmar is below that norm. crying about semantics is boring.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you really don't like overreacting!
(sorry, that exclamation point is too upsetting!)
(that one too.)
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what does this "norm" mean?
norm, average, mediocre… your cousin Norm? I want it in chart form please.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
his cousin 'Norm Reacting'
who he likes much better than ‘Owen Reacting’
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
Presumably you didn’t spend much time on the fine distinctions of English language definitions if you were a math major.
Mediocre and Average have about the same meaning in plain old English. Mediocre has a more negative connotation, but they still mean about the same.
From a statistical perspective, if you’ve got a distribution of items, how would you define average vs. mediocre?
“Average” would generally be the mean or median (which are, of course, different concepts themselves). So typically we could say something is average if it’s within a standard deviation of the sample mean. Within that paradigm, how would you define “Mediocre”. If you’re going to define it as, for example, more than a standard deviation from the mean, wouldn’t you just be better off calling it “Bad”?
by Sports2 on Oct 21, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sports2pwnt.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
saying its average if its within a standard deviation of the mean is sketchy
simply because you don’t know how big the standard deviation is.
and yes, I would compare “mediocre” to bad. thats why I wouldn’t compare it to average.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you wouldn't compare it because
you don’t know what the word means and you are too stubborn to admit you are wrong
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 21, 2009 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I very clearly understand what the word means
when you define it as mediocre, you’re comparing it to the better half of the information given.
considering the fact that I was discussing the entire NBA, I wouldn’t Derek Fisher “mediocre”. Is he inferior to the better point guards? yes. is he on the lower half of pgs in the nba? Not in my opinion.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this shit is seriously cracking my ass up
i'm hot for teacher
by DLRoth on Oct 21, 2009 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, I don't believe I missed this.
Also, I think that mediocre means stupendous. Therefore it does.
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 22, 2009 4:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is some funny shit
also, mediocre and average essentially mean the same thing. Just thought I’d throw in my 2 cents.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Oct 22, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually the original signification of "mediocre"
is “of middle degree”. The “low quality” interpretation makes little sense given the origin of the word, and probably evolved from slight misuse of the word over time.
Monkeys are like nature's humans.
by TheMoon on Oct 21, 2009 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither of these are mediocre players
Taj has skills, Tyrus has talent neither are great but neither are o.k either!
by Mr Rhythm on Oct 21, 2009 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
traded all the way down to 4...
By your logic, since Rose isn’t one of the point guards in the league(yet) who cares if kirk starts? Except for a couple of elite players…who starts shouldn’t be an issue?
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
uh not at all
1. Rose is one of the best point guards in the league.
2. Rose has done more in his 1 year to solidify his role as a starter than Tyrus has done in 3.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what is your cutoff for "one of the best"
top 5? top 10? top 20?
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
top 10
I go for 5 in each conference
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a homer too
but saying Rose is a top 5 PG in the east is a bit premature. I think Harris, Rondo, Mo Williams, Ford, Nelson, Gilbert and maybe even Calderon are all better than him at this point..
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mo Williams isn't a point guard.
Derrick does everything T.J. Ford does, but better
I’d take Rose over Calderon all day.
the rest I agree with, although I don’t consider a Arenas to be a point guard either.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arenas is a point guard.
He dribbles the ball up the court and facilitates the offense. He is more of a scorer than a passer, but then again, so is Derrick.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that still doesn't take Rose out of my top 5.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what about Derrick playing the worst PG
defense of anyone in the league last year? That do anything to your rankings?
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
again, getting way off-topic....
Calderon and Ford suck at defense too. I’m not putting them above Derrick because they suck a bit less.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calderon is a better passer
Just as efficient at scoring. So, again, none of us know what you’re talking about.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 21, 2009 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But can Calderon or Ford take over games like Rose
Sorry, I don’t think so. Roses D was bad last year, but it was his rookie season. It will get better (i hope so) with time. Roses “alone” won a lot of games for the Bulls. I believe none of those two did that.
Maybe Rose is not yet a top 5 PG in the east, but he’s definitly the 6th best IMO
Pargo = Larry Hughes 2.0
by bull83 on Oct 22, 2009 5:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The flip side is that Taj Gibson has done even less to earn a starting role than Tyrus
At this point, we’re talking about starting an unproven late round pick with a couple pre-season games under his belt.
I agree that Tyrus hasn’t earned a no-questions asked starting role, but Taj has done nothing. So it’s not a question of who’s “earned it”. It is a question of who’s better, and what can we stand to learn from it. With Taj, we’ve got four seasons, basically, ahead of him to prove something. With Tyrus, it’s now or never.
by Sports2 on Oct 21, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Rather than this top 5 of each position in each conference deserving a starting spot..can’t we just start the better player? Please?
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
If Taj proves during the season he is a better player than Tyrus, than we can change it up. But right now Tyrus is the better player, has the higher potential and you have to make a decision on him (if the decision hasn’t already been made) at the end of the season. GIve Tyrus a chance. Taj has done nothing to steal Tyrus’ starting spot.
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 21, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus hasn't gotten a chance?
At the beginning of last year, his only viable competition was Drew Gooden. That’s about as easy as it gets in the NBA
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and they traded away Gooden and made Tyrus
the starting PF, and it worked. The Bulls made the playoffs and Tyrus had a per just under 16, the best of his career.
However, I was actually referring to give Tyrus a chance to play next to Noah, since the argument seems to be that Noah and Tyrus can’t play well together.
Regardless, you don’t seem to have an argument for why Taj should start over Tyrus. You simply seem to be saying that it doesn’t matter – well I think it does. So there you have it. Either make a legit argument for Taj starting over Tyrus or don’t.
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 21, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus should've taken his damn spot back from day one
why wait for a trade?
my argument has never been “we should definitely start Taj over Tyrus”
Its always been “who cares, as long as the better player gets the minutes”
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then what is the argument?
Gibson isn’t the better player until he proves it in the actual season. If he’s actually putting up better numbers, then Vinny will start him, and the season is most likely going down the gutter.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 21, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the hell if i know
I said
Also, I guess I just don’t care who starts nearly as much as I care about who’s getting the most minutes.
and here we are.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it wasn't about top 5 in each conference deserving a spot
it was about players that aren’t likely to be replaced anyway getting a spot. Unless Tyrus has a breakout year, the Bulls are probably going to go after a frontcourt player in 2010.
and as I said before, I couldn’t care less who starts as long as the better guy gets the minutes. On nights when Tyrus’ head isn’t shoved deep into his anus, that player will be him.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I made the same point
on a tribune post to settle down the Tyrus Bashing going on there…. I’m only concerned now though. I’ll officially be worried when they actually start Taj on opening night.
by 72-10 on Oct 21, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not Tyrus bashing
he is what he is. decent, but not good enough to complain when he doesn’t start.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
any player should complain when an inferior player starts over them.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that doesn't mean anyone should listen.
I’ll give an ear to Carlos Boozer, Andre Miller, Ben Gordon, Manu Ginobli, Lamar Odom etc
not Tyrus Thomas
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we get it. you hate Tyrus.
doesn’t change that he’s a pretty good player and quite a bit better than Taj freakin’ Gibson.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
where have I even implied that I hate Tyrus?
keep overreacting to a preseason lineup change.
by darksmokepuncher on Oct 21, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
never!
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
keep saying we should play our shitty players first because lineups apparently don't matter
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 22, 2009 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say you were
I was agreeing with Sport2.
by 72-10 on Oct 22, 2009 8:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say you were Tyrus bashing that is....
My comment had nothing to do with you.
by 72-10 on Oct 22, 2009 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who says Tyrus is one of the better PF's? Who?
The national sports writers have these lists of high draft pick busts and I bet Tyrus is on that list. No it ain’t Vinny’s fault or Jerry or anyone else. This is a 4th year professional player.
by Noe_Valley on Oct 21, 2009 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Tyrus was listed as
one of the top 25 under 25 earlier this month.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Teams play their consistent players first.
The ave annual air temp in SF and Santa Fe is about the same but Santa Fe is a lot colder and hotter than SF, where I now reside.
Taj is apparently, at this time, a more consistent quantity for the Bulls. They know what he can and can’t do and can depend on him to play a role with the starters.
Tyrus, so far, is hot and cold. Those guys are off-the-bench players who get in and if they play well stay in.
by Noe_Valley on Oct 21, 2009 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wth?
What happens with global warning? Should Tyrus get to start then?
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked
global warning better
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Oct 22, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
taj is a more consistent quantity?
based on a handful of games that don’t count?
"...but the devil lives inside this kid, I swear it. It rises out of him in a mist, this baby-faced defiant wrathful version of Pat Kane, escapes his bodily confines to perform satanic miracles all over the offensive zone. The only thing more fearsome than that assist was the keep-in preceding it. The only thing more unholy than his face is his black magic." GMH
by Illini0509 on Oct 22, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont know if youve been practicing writing in the offseason or what
but man im loving your posts lately, especially the way youve been closing them off, the one liners are real good
It leads to situations where a surprisingly good preseason from a rookie leads to legitimate fear
ahh its so accurate, no matter if i agree with your situation (in this case i do) or not, i just agree with that last line…bizarre indeed…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Oct 21, 2009 1:52 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Could it be that Vinny doesn't have a Mussolini complex, maybe it's more like the old Italian Popes
and heretic Tyrus refuses to bow down and kiss his ring? Just asking. With the Bulls prior track record, legitimate fear makes more sense than paranoid fear.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on Oct 21, 2009 1:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure I can watch Tyrus play in any game for 2-3 minutes and get a pretty decent feel for which Tyrus has shown up to play that night. I say start him, give him 2-3 minutes, evaluate what type of effort he will give you that night (focused and sharp vs. reckless and disoriented), and then manage his PT accordingly. Tyrus v. Taj shouldn’t be an issue. If Tyrus is playing well then he is either the 2nd or 3rd most valuable player on the team. If he comes out playing sloppy then work in Taj for slightly extended minutes that evening.
Derrick Rose is younger and more talented than Kirk Hinrich but last season Hinrich was less turnover prone, had a more refined jumper and also blew less defensive assignments. However, people knew that it was more valuable to keep Rose on the floor because he was clearly the more talented player and also more important to the eventual success of the franchise. I think the same philosophy needs to come into play when deciding on who needs to start/play more minutes between Tyrus and Taj.
If Tyrus has a miserable season then playing Taj might only mean the difference between 35 wins and 38 wins anyway. I don’t think there’s any reasonable justification. If Taj turns into a star NBA player then he will redefine the term “late bloomer.” Tyrus has double double talent and the shotblocking potential to land him on an All Defensive team.
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 2:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Also, I’m not trying to say that Taj is less turnover prone etc etc than Tyrus. Moreso, I’m just saying that some people might make the case that Taj is more consistently under control.
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 2:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
kirk wa more turnover prone than derrick.
Monkeys are like nature's humans.
by TheMoon on Oct 21, 2009 2:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i knew this would be the first response
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 2:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK so I didn’t check that fact before I wrote it but I checked now.. Kirk avg 1.7 TOper and Derrick avg 2.5TOper
Their avgs per 36 min are:
Kirk – 2.4
Derrick – 2.5
Their avgs per min are:
Kirk – .064
Derrick – .067
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 2:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah but do all of kirk's missed layups count as turnovers? they should.
i'm hot for teacher
by DLRoth on Oct 21, 2009 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nice on one Kurt
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Oct 22, 2009 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, because as players get older, they never get more consistent.
That’s a very good point.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 21, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who made that point?
the point being Taj is older/more experienced than Tyrus and Hinrich is older more experienced than Rose yet both younger players deserve the time on the court. It’s about ceiling and eventual player and team potential
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trying to put this in perspective
Stats per 70 possessions (36mpg for the Bulls)
15.5pts, 11.1reb, 1.9ast, 3.7to, 0.6stl, 2.4blk, 58.6 TS% → Taj, age 21
14.1pts, 10.2reb, 1.7ast, 3.3to, 0.9stl, 3.3blk, 59.9 TS% → Taj, age 22
18.3pts, 11.5reb, 1.7ast, 2.7to, 1.3stl, 3.7blk, 63.1 TS% → Taj, age 23
19.3pts, 14.4reb, 2.0ast, 2.8to, 1.6stl, 4.9blk, 63.7 TS% → Tyrus, age 19
Few things:
1) We all know Taj is old (older than Tyrus, just 2 months apart from Deng), but he improved across the board last season. He didn’t play a lot of high school ball, so like James Johnson, maybe the Bulls think he has some untapped potential left.
2) It seems he improved his jumpshot in 2008. Draftexpress said after the 07-08 season that “He should look to improve his face-up game, namely his mid-range jump-shot, which has a significant hitch”. I don’t see the hitch anymore.
3) There is a precedent for a low FT% player who shoots jumpshots well. McDyess made 69% FT last year but was one of the league’s best jumpshooters at 47.3%. Every other top jumpshooter I looked at, though, had a FT% over 75%.
4) Taj will be a below-average defensive rebounder. While his college rebounding numbers were decent, his 13.4 OREB% ranked him 54th in the country while his 19.2 DREB% ranked him 215th.. For comparison, Tyrus’ DREB% in college was 26.4%.
5) APM-wise, Tyrus’ defense has never been off the charts, normally registering between +2.5 and +3. Part of that may be playing alongside Noah and Gooden (not the best defensive fits with Tyrus). Taj, potentially, could get near that mark.
Overall, I don’t think it’s “Tyrus is a star in the making, Gibson is a fringe player”. It’s probably more like “Tyrus is an average player with potential, Gibson is a slightly below average player. Both guys aren’t young anymore (23 and 24), but they haven’t played a lot of organized basketball, so each could develop a bit more.”
I’d like to see Tyrus get 30mpg from the start, but if Gibson chimes in with 12mpg and a few starts, I don’t think it’s a bad thing. Tyrus could wait his turn behind veterans PJ Brown, Joe Smith, and Drew Gooden, but he won’t wait behind Taj. For the first time, Tyrus KNOWS he should start. Maybe pummeling this little-upside #26 pick becomes the chip on Tyrus’s shoulder he’s needed his whole career. And if not, it’s not like anything else has worked.
by YaoPau on Oct 21, 2009 2:50 AM CDT reply actions 4 recs
As to point 3, I think that McDyess is probably the exception that proves the rule
more than a model for Taj to follow. Taj needs to improve his stroke, and the odds are that given his poor foul shooting that his jump shooting production to this point in the pre-season has been a fluke.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or not. Free throws are skills college player neglect.
Taj’s FT % will be determined this year after the’s been coached and told it’s important for staying on the floor.
by Noe_Valley on Oct 21, 2009 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was awesome
and should’ve probably ended this thread. Can we send that to VDN?
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Oct 22, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hasn't Vinny already said that he was doing that
Only for one game?
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Oct 21, 2009 7:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
“I want (Thomas) to get some practice in,” Del Negro said. “It’s nothing. Taj has worked hard and played well. He’s young. We’re just trying to get him as much experience as we can. That’s all.”
"That pitch wasn’t down and in, that pitch was down and up." Tim McCarver
by wrigleyrocker12 on Oct 21, 2009 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Damn
All of this back and forth and he’s already said it’s nothing.
"I'm in the Hall already, on the wall already, I'm a work of art I'm a Warhol already"-Jay Z
by bigballa10 on Oct 22, 2009 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think my thought on Gibson is a bit unorthodox, but I think it would be effective. It’s based largely on the following premises.
1) Everyone would play best with Brad Miller, but Miller has a limited capacity to play at a high level at this point in his career.
2) Noah / Tyrus don’t play well together.
3) Gibson is going to get 12-15 minutes a night somewhere.
4) Noah / Gibson is the best pairing outside of Miller/Gibson, but we won’t use the Miller/Gibson pairing because it would force even more minutes of the Noah/Tyrus pairing.
After viewing those premises, I’m left with the idea that I’d want to play Noah/Gibson for most of Gibson’s minutes, and the easiest way to accomplish that is to start Gibson and play him 6 minutes at the start of the 1st and 3rd quarters for his minutes.
by dougthonus on Oct 21, 2009 7:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Noah/Gibson pairing being the best pairing for Gibson outside of Miller/Gibson that is.
I do agree that losing Tyrus mentally may be a risk too large to take in attempting something like that, but if he were to buy in and you limited Gibson’s minutes to just those 12, I think the rotation would work out better.
My fear would be that we’d run into the Chris Duhon scenario where he suddenly started playing 25-30 minutes.
by dougthonus on Oct 21, 2009 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Noah and Tyrus can't play well together (which is a lie)
Then Noah and Gibson would be even worse. The reason why the frontcourt looked so bad at times last season is they get killed on the boards. Gibson makes that an even bigger disadvantage.
Gibson is a nice player, I’m pleasantly surprised with his pre-season. But, it’s like arguing Malik Allen should be a starting PF. You can’t get away with starting marginal players on an average team, when there is someone who’s obviously better.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 21, 2009 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
A lie?
Perhaps it’s an incorrect belief, but it’s still a matter of personal observation and I don’t think Doug is being dishonest.
I’m tend to share his belief that Noah and Tyrus don’t complement each other very well. At least they haven’t so far. The reason to be upset over this move is that it further cements the reality that either Tyrus sucks or the Bulls are once again dreadfully wrong in their personnel decisions. The on-court details are mostly a distraction from the big (and depressing) picture.
by Sports2 on Oct 21, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's one thing to say the two don't complement each other well.
It’s another say that Gibson and Noah complement each other better.
Personal observation by itself is such a crude tool to use these days when there is so much more information available.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 21, 2009 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
right, that's my reasoning behind this post
if it was to start Brad Miller, fine. But why risk any fallout for friggin’ Taj, who doesn’t address the real problem with the Noah/Thomas frontcourt (defensive rebounding) and in fact makes it worse?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh, didn't you notice that Taj reminds Sam Smith of a young Horace Grant?
I haven’t heard anyone being talked up so much since we were hearing the young John Stockton line being trotted out in re Kurt Hinrich.
But anyone, you can’t start Miller and Noah, because then you have a hard time making a reasonable rotation. Do you always bring one out quick and then put him back in quickly for the other one? Most players don’t like playing in those kind of short, discontinuous spurts.
Or do you go with the twiggy Taj and Tyrus front line?
by Sports2 on Oct 21, 2009 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But as a player or in some other fashion?
Grant was a skinny guy when he started in the NBA. Taj is skinny.
Grant worked out and got better, maybe Taj can fill out. He seems to have the work ethic.
by Noe_Valley on Oct 21, 2009 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like what?
I hate to go all Karl Popper on you, but most of the data analysis we have available in basketball is subject to differing interpretation. It’s also a pretty crude tool as well, at least at this point.
And in the case of Gibson, we really don’t have much more information. We have a few minutes of pre-season action. And a college career. No matter how you slice it, that’s not a robust set of data.
by Sports2 on Oct 21, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't suggest using any of that on its own either.
In that sense, it’s all crude. As you’ve pointed out, there’s good reason to believe that putting Thomas to the bench would cause bigger team chemistry problems than what is gained. In a move that could have such an impact, I would think more than a gut feeling or personal observation would be the basis of the reasoning.
No one said there was anything perfect. And I’d like to believe that the any basketball organization would have better statistical measures than what is freely available to the public. I’ll allow that maybe their evaluations say Thomas is irredeemable. Thonus isn’t advocating this off of very advanced statistics, though.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 21, 2009 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t say Noah and Gibson complement each other better.
Gibson will play 12 minutes a game or so. Everyone on the team would play better with Miller, but Miller only has so many minutes available. Gibson + Noah is better than Gibson + Tyrus, so most of his minutes should be with Noah.
Starting him in the 1st and 3rd quarters for his 12 minutes a night accomplishes the goal of maximizing the Bulls big man pairings. It may not be the only way to maximize it of course.
by dougthonus on Oct 21, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see how giving Taj Gibson 12 minutes of guaranteed playing time every night
maximizes anything about the Bulls big man pairings. I would think not having an inferior player on the floor for 12 minutes every night might actually maximize the big man pairings. Did this 12 minutes stuff come from the Bulls holy trinity of Pax, Gar, and Vinny? Is that why it appears to be gospel?
by Scotter on Oct 21, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
We're not going to compete this year though
It’s smart the Bulls give their 1st round pick a chance to make the rotation, and it’s something I wish we’d done with Tyrus, Noah, Thabo in previous years. Especially after Taj ’s solid preseason. I disagree about him starting though.
by YaoPau on Oct 21, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what arent the bulls competing for?
Monkeys are like nature's humans.
by TheMoon on Oct 21, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they still have to make the playoffs.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yup, let's develop the 24 year old...
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
So... develop the 23 year old, but developing a 24 year old is crazy
We’ve got Taj for the next four years, and 12mpg is nothing. Aaron Gray played 12mpg last year. Thabo played 17. Tim Thomas played 14.
We talked for months about who we want the Bulls to pick at #16 and #26, and now that we have what looks like two decent picks, people are calling for them to ride the bench all year in a meaningless season. (I’ve thought that too in recent weeks, but it doesn’t make sense. You don’t draft a 22 year old and 24 year old first round and not give them a shot.)
by YaoPau on Oct 21, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point
but the 23 year old in this case is about to become a free agent. This is his last audition to determine whether he’s part of the Bulls “core.” I think TT should be given every opportunity to make his case.
"...but the devil lives inside this kid, I swear it. It rises out of him in a mist, this baby-faced defiant wrathful version of Pat Kane, escapes his bodily confines to perform satanic miracles all over the offensive zone. The only thing more fearsome than that assist was the keep-in preceding it. The only thing more unholy than his face is his black magic." GMH
by Illini0509 on Oct 21, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"what looks like two decent picks"
Based off of what, a few preseason games? We’re talking about a 24-year old rookie. Whatever he is now, this is pretty much as good as he’ll be.
by Big D on Oct 21, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point of playing him
is to figure out what he is now.
by YaoPau on Oct 21, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh really?
Right out of college and he’s as good at it gets?
Generally NBA players peak at 28.
The guy may find a role with the NBA, like Bowen did playing defense.
by Noe_Valley on Oct 21, 2009 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He'll be lucky if he's in the league when he's 28
What are we evaluating him off of? A few preseason games? We’re going to throw him in the starting lineup just based off of that? If Tyrus is playing like shit, then start Brad Miller, who actually has a body of work of more than a few preseason games.
by Big D on Oct 21, 2009 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said let's develop Tyrus.
I’m just in favor of playing the better player. Do I think he has room for improvement? Of course, but if you’re taking that as developing then I guess I’m for developing the 23 year old…
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus grew something like 9 inches right before he came into college and the next year was drafted into the NBA.. he’s basically been growing into his frame up until last year. So we’re developing the 23 year old that just grew into his body as opposed to the 24 year old Gibson that played all 4 years of College (pro) basketball at USC under former NBA/Bulls head coaching…
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus started playing organized HS basketball as a Junior.. he started HS at 5’10"
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, so being coached by Tim Floyd
is now an advantage?
by YaoPau on Oct 21, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Under some circumstances… definitely not all
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This Noah and Thomas don't play well together has the same smell
as the John Salmons can’t play SG garbage. It’s not the perfect match, but there’s no evidence that’s any kind of disastrous pairing that’s justifies starting the rich man’s Malik Allen.
by Scotter on Oct 21, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
This.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh no, not you too.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not me too what? I recced it, and thought it was so important that I would
chime in with my agreement in comment form.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just giving you guff
‘this.’ is starting to be the new +1.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh right. Yeah, it's overdone, but Scotter's point was spot on.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 this
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 21, 2009 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
flag.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 22, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+ ... wait a minute ...
Hey, can I get mod powers?
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 22, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
We have two young frontcourt players loaded with potential, and no one wants to play them together? Sounds like we’re over-thinking things a bit.
Tyrus’ skill set isn’t too far off from Rasheed Wallace’s (although Tyrus isn’t nearly that developed yet) and Noah’s isn’t too far off from Ben Wallace (although I’d say much more offensively gifted, at least in terms of passing and ball handling). Didn’t the Pistons win a championship starting those guys at the 4 and 5?
I don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t roll out Rose, Salmons, Deng, Thomas and Noah to start the season.
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Oct 22, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i sure hope taj ends up being better than malik allen
looks like a reasonable thing to hope for so far
i'm hot for teacher
by DLRoth on Oct 21, 2009 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where's your evidence about "best pairs?"
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 21, 2009 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
12-15 min?
Why should Gibson get 12-15 minutes a game? I’d be elated if the guy we picked 26th gave us 10 solid minutes off the bench.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't get why he has to play that much either
Tyrus and Noah can play 35 each, outside of obvious foul trouble.
And we likely have to set aside time for some Luol Deng at the 4…though that doesn’t seem like much of an option after the last few preseason games.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
James Johnson will definitely get some minutes at PF as well.
Vinny’s obsession with smallball will eventually leave one of the big men out of the rotation. Either it’s logical and Gibson gets the short-end, or Tyrus has another shitty start to the season and he brings it on himself.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 21, 2009 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know if Johnson plays at all.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At PF you mean?
I’m assuming you mean he’ll log his minutes at other positions right?.. I hope… Unless there is something I’m unaware of.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Log minutes when games are still in doubt?
I’m not sure about that. Who do you take minutes away from? Johnson is a project. The Bulls seem to really want him to be a wing player, which is a decision I agree with. But, it’s going to take time before he can play competitive minutes out there. He may look a lot less raw than Tyrus, but he has similar issues to work out.
by Scotter on Oct 21, 2009 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I get that of course...
Still, I think he offers VDN at least one decent (occasional) big lineup option with him and Deng. If not now then in future development I suppose.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why should either of them play any significant minutes?
Except for the fact that our team is mediocre and our coach/organization values “hustle” over talent and skill. These guys were late picks on a weak draft, let’s just be happy they haven’t looked horrible.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think JJ has talent, and an interesting player for his size...
Call me crazy.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he does
but the #1 goal this season is to make the playoffs, and they don’t have much margin for error.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope your'e right
I really do, but to be even having a discussion of either of these guys starting over Tyrus is crazy.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
Neither of them should be starting anywhere. I just think it wouldn’t be so bad if we could work towards a situation where JJ could spell Salmons and Deng once in a while. Especially considering we all know one if not both of them will get hurt at least once this year.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That will be Johnson's chance and why they need him to be
prepared as possible to play on the wing, and not waste time on him playing PF. But, they can’t sacrifice wins to get him some minutes early on.
by Scotter on Oct 21, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're being too logical..
going with the the whole “will play 12 minutes” theme, I wonder how minutes JJ “will play”. Doug do you have any idea?
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no, I don't think he plays at all
outside of garbage time. Or if someone (Deng) gets hurt.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he plays a good amount initially
Simply because he’s a new toy for Vinny. Johnson won’t be very good, and that’s why he’ll eventually fall out of the rotation.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 21, 2009 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The pairings weakness
I guess some people think the Tyrus and Noah combo won’t work because of their size and lack of offense. While that may be true, the other options we have aren’t even close to how good those two are/could be.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially considering our best "size" is Gray and Miller...
Nobody wants that… Do they?
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you forget our coach?
I can see a “creative” lineup of Rose, Salmons, Deng, Gray and Miller out there when our general wants to go big. Did I mention how much I hate him?
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nono, here's the big lineup:
Salmons[PG]/Tyrus[SG]/Noah[SF]/Miller[PF]/Gray©
Yeeeeeeah.
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 21, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe thats a bit too crazy...
nevermind…I just remember our midget lineup last year with Miller.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think that benching Thomas wouldn't have an overall greater negative effect?
1) Start Gibson because it maximizes Gibson’s below-average abilities.
2) Bench Thomas
3a) Thomas is such an upbeat and non-malcontent player, he will be perfectly chipper not starting.
3b) Thomas has the great example of Ben Gordon going to the bench without a peep and saw how nobody (including ChicagoNow) ended up saying how he hated it and saw how well Gordon was eventually treated by the organization.
4) Thus, maximizing Gibson’s mediocre mins is better for team chemistry and production than keeping Thomas happy for an entire season. He’ll never skip out on practice or demand trades or publicly complain or anything.
That’s your argument, right?
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 21, 2009 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Other premises
5) Tyrus is an insecure front runner who’s crumbled at every bit of coaching induced adversity thrown his way.
6) For whatever reason, the team responds to this psychological reality by repeatedly yanking him, always expecting him to change and “toughen up”
7) Tyrus, when on his game, is a tremendously better player, with more upside to boot, than Taj.
Look, I’ve made it pretty clear before I’m not a huge fan of Tyrus. But he has his talents and this is insane. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Tyrus, from the very beginning is a big talker. He masks his insecurity and lack of confidence that way. Looking at his statements in this case, it’s more of a same. He expects things without really and truly having earned it.
But here’s where the psychology comes in. Tyrus may not have really earned the veteran status and starting job he’s claimed, but neither has Gibson. And more than anyone else I’ve ever seen, I think, Tyrus is always waiting for the other shoe to drop. He plays well, but then he gets yanked the minute he plays like garbage. I think at some points he’s starting thinking about the consequences of his poor play, and that causes him to play worse.
Call him a baby if you want. I do. I think there’s something wrong with a guy who needs to be babied and given a job up front and allowed to play through his mood swings to the point he finally feels unconditionally loved and plays with confidence.
And I can understand why a team and coach wouldn’t want to put up with a baby like that. But he’s a very talented baby, and we’ve tried the same tactic of yanking him when he plays like poo over and over. So if we’re gonna keep him around, how’s about we try giving him the ludicrous amount of leeway he seems to need?
by Sports2 on Oct 21, 2009 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
especially if they want to trade him in February
I’m sure Toronto would love a trade package for Chris Bosh centered around a guy who couldn’t beat out Taj Gibson for a job.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right.
I completely agree. I’d like to see Thomas succeed w/ the Bulls, but sitting him for any length of time (God, I hope this isn’t an actual plan by the Bulls and is just Thonus) will only make one of your only seven productive players much less productive.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 21, 2009 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Noah / Tyrus don’t play well together....Noah / Gibson is the best pairing outside of Miller/Gibson"
huh?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's personal observation and irrefutable, apparently.
What he is saying, actually, is that for the skinny Gibson, you first want a beefy center (Miller) then someone who is taller and stays near the hoop (Noah). It’s about maximizing Gibson’s 12 mpg.
I’d say they just start Miller and Gibson, then.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 21, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"It’s about maximizing Gibson’s 12 mpg."
yeah, that’s nuts.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't center your rotation around a scrub
You center your rotation around maximizing Tyrus’s and Noah’s minutes.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on Oct 21, 2009 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before the amazing preseason play of Taj Gibson
Doug was all over benching Tyrus to start James Johnson at PF as a rookie. Because Johnson was the all powerful complement to Noah even though he oddly doesn’t really do anything that different from Tyrus. He runs into people when he dribbles, makes spectacular plays and terrible plays especially when leading the fast break, makes spectacular passes and terrible passes, and will make spectacular plays on defense while being out of position most of the time. I think Johnson is worth some investment, but the find a better complement to Noah stuff is nuts..
by Scotter on Oct 21, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HERE'S WHAT EVERYONE OVERLOOKS ABOUT THE LINEUPS
A lineup with Rose, B.G, Salmons, Tyrus, and Noah wouldn’t allow Tyrus or Noah to play well with because none of those players are great assist men, B.G and Salmons both make a offense freeze, and if Tyrus is positioned outside the offense i.e away from the rim, he wont get many boards and if the shots aren’t falling Tyrus and Noah won’t look good. However, if you put Tyrus with Miller, who is a passing big, or with Kirk, who runs the pick and knows when to pass off, Tyrus will do better because as I watched many times, Tyrus attacks the rim more because these two in particular have a knack for finding him slashing and breaking to the rim. This is something else I’m challenging everyone to watch for. Tyrus isn’t positioned to make buckets offensively, and as he already mentioned this year, he still doesn’t have a set role offensively, yet Taj does!
by Mr Rhythm on Oct 21, 2009 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
shouldn’t the idea be to see if Tyrus/Noah can finally play well together both as starters with guarantees of 30+ minutes to see if it’s worth it to invest in them next season and beyond. If we have already seen enough evidence to prove that there’s no way they will ever play well together then why not just tell Tyrus he will be coming off the bench for good this season and is not in the team’s future plans? Tell Tyrus that he should play hard coming off the bench bc they will be searching for a new team for him via trade this season and to treat every game as an audition…
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How are you so sure that Noah Gibson is such a good pairing? What makes you think that
Noah Gibson being paired together is any better than Noah Tyrus? Noah and Tyrus have been effective together in some lineups. (See my comment towards the top of this thread). Noah is a great offensive rebounder, but his defensive rebounding is average at best. Gibson is a below average defensive rebounder. Pairing them together is probably a recipe for defensive glass murder.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dougthonus You listen to me and you listen good!
To say Tyrus and Noah don’t play well together is STUPID! If they don’t play well together that would mean what, they fight on the court, argue over the ball, what’s your angle here? How the heck can they not play well together? Brad is gonna make people look good because he’s put in position to make plays, Tyrus is put outside the framework of the offense, if you know the game and watch it, it’s pretty obvious. For you to just “put out there” to bench Tyrus is something that I saw coming before I even saw Taj play. The reason it’s a point of conversation now is to get us fans thinking Tyrus isn’t worth whatever he may want at the end of the year, I think it’s a tactic to slowly ease his way out of the rotation so at the end of the year his departure won’t be so hard for Chicago. Vinny isn’t innocent either, I say be a man straight up, you want to bench Tyrus say it, don’t front and say, Taj is playing “because the chemistry is good so far, but don’t look into it”. Then all of the media people suggest Taj is so good, and so poised, while Tyrus doesn’t get it! Tyrus is the second most talented player on this team, hands down, he’s raw, but what would you expect from a project who hasn’t been properly coached, and has had 4 different coaches in 4 years, all of them have different roles for a young 20 something year old! Taj is 24 years old, of course he’s poised, I had 3 kids at 24, plus he’s a true power forward, but he still isn’t better than TT, so you take that for what it’s worth, and yeah….your jive, real jive!
by Mr Rhythm on Oct 21, 2009 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just wait…Pretty soon we will start getting the “Taj just has a nice calming effect on the team when he’s out there” quotes from the staff.
by mruntouchable on Oct 21, 2009 8:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Taj over TT?
I can’t believe we’re even having this discussion…
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This reminds me of the Aaron Gray love in the 2007 preseason
Skiles mentioned the possibility of starting Gray, and pretty soon people had convinced themselves that Gray was actually going to be a good player. All because of a few good preseason games. The preseason means jack shit. If we’re actually going to be counting on Gibson to be in the rotation (and forget about starting), we’re in trouble. He was the 24th pick in what was widely considered a bad draft, so anything we get out of him this year should be considered a bonus. Besides, isn’t Brad Miller still on the team? If they insist on bringing Tyrus off the bench, Miller should be first in line to replace him as a starter. Oh wait, this is the Bulls, who believe in starting scrubs and bringing good players off the bench.
by Big D on Oct 21, 2009 9:31 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
I agree completely
but we’ve been around a team that is average(in a good year) that we need to talk ourselves into some kind of hope…even when it comes from below average players…
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hahaha that talk made me sick!!!
“He’s our best low post scorer… look at his college numbers” I hope all those people feel foolish now.. or maybe they’re just biding their time while he’s out with his leg injury
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyger's Ideal Rotation (for the frontcourt)
Start Thomas and Noah.
Sub Miller for Thomas 10 mins into the 1st, 2 mins left.
Sub Gibson in for Noah 2 mins into the second, 10 mins left in the half
Sub Thomas for Gibson 4 mins into the second, 8 mins left in the half.
Sub Noah back in for Miller 8 minutes in, 4 mins left.
Miller can come back in during the last minute or two, if “needed”.
Thomas 18 mins, Noah 18 mins, Miller 10 mins, Gibson 2 mins
Thomas-Noah 14 mins, Noah-Miller 4 mins, Miller-Thomas 4 mins, Miller-Gibson 2 mins
I will say that seems to make less sense when you’re not planning on keeping your two youngest and best players around for the future. As far as the logic that Gibson start because he’ll be around next year? If Noah and whatever FA the Bulls get aren’t guaranteed 36 mpg next year, this team is screwed. They’ll have Asik, too, who will likely be as good as, if not better than Gibson. If anyone is planning on Gibson getting more than 15 mpg next year, they’re planning for disaster. I don’t think you sacrifice your best chance to win now for 15 mpg of, at best, average PF play.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 21, 2009 10:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You seem to count on Asik coming over and contributing immediately next season in all of your plans for the future
I haven’t seen anything that strongly indicates he would be capable of doing so. From reading the reports from the European tournament this summer, it appears, despite making positive contributions in the tournament, he is still extremely raw. I’m curious about where you are finding this optimism for Asik’s future, even as the third big man on the team.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Oct 21, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think I count him that positively as I do Gibson negatively.
Ideally, it’d be a 3a & 3b with Gibson. My ideal situation is Bosh/Stoudamire, Noah, Asik and Gibson 25 minutes between the latter two is hardly counting on anyone. My next “ideal” situation would be Thomas, Noah, Gibson and Asik. If they let Thomas go and don’t get another good PF and have Gibson, Noah and Asik, they’ll be pretty fucked.
My fault for not being explicit, but when I talk about being an immediate contributor, it’s mostly in the context of being a 15-20 minute contributor, at most, in the mold of a poor-man’s Noah. I think his defense and offense will be more refined (if not by a lot ) than Noah while his hustle, ball-handling and passing won’t be.
What gives me the optimism? He’ll be somewhat cheap (not as cheap as Jerry would like, though), I like his height, I like how he moves. And as you said, he still makes positive contributions even though he’s pretty raw. I think that would be a reason for optimism.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 21, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone who plays 15-20 min a night won't make a huge impact on the ultimate win-loss record
But I’m hesitant to even count on Asik for even that until he actually gets over here. For me, that’s why it’s nice to see Taj isn’t a total waste of a draft pick.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Oct 21, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
barf-tacular.
http://www.csnchicago.com/pages/player?is_popup=1&feedID=635&vidID=13947&startclip=2&dord=mr
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 1:16 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
holy s-
TT is out of here. What prevents TT more than anything from getting to “there” is the organization. What I can’t believe is the adoration showered upon Taj. I heard the terms “mature”, “length” and “off the charts basketball IQ”. What’s hilarious is the claim that Taj is the quickest off the floor to block a shot that he’s ever seen…really? If Taj ever becomes a solid 6th man in the NBA he would have surpassed all my expectations let alone a starter in the league.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
to be fair
the jumping comment was Mike North, who is just an idiot.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dumbest thing I've ever heard.
U don’t see Taj jump because…… he barely gets off the floor.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
by dakoose on Oct 21, 2009 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike North IS an idiot
how did he ever get on the radio in the first place?
"This is not Vietnam, Smokey, there are rules here." - Walter Sobchak
by Rose Colored Goggles on Oct 22, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All three of them are idiots.
But seriously, if some of the statheads on here got a show, it would make Bulls/NBA talk on Chicago radio exponentially better.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on Oct 22, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this video is why some of us are scared as hell about a preseason starting lineup.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and didn’t Vinny make the genius decision of starting Aaron Gray and Thabo Sefelosha in game 1 last year?
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
THE FUCK!!!
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ONE HERE? It’s over! North is just saying what Chuck can’t. He clearly talked to them before the went on live. I hate you chuck!
Chuck also hinted that the Bulls will most likely cut Byars and of course Richards.
Now Tyrus can sign with another team and make us cry. But hey we got Deng and Hinrich!
I think this is a mistake by the Bulls.
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh god
That was hilarious and horrible at the same time.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on Oct 21, 2009 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do these people have jobs?
Swirsky has seen Taj go against a bunch of scrubs and have a couple of nice performances mixed with a clusterfuck of fouls and now he’s a definite starter in the NBA at some point? We live in Chicago. We deserve better than these idiots.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
by dakoose on Oct 21, 2009 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
If Taj Gibson is the Bulls future PF then we have major issues.. unless we get DWade or LeBron which is highly unlikely
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 1:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
we're not getting either of them if Gibson is one of the best 5....
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think we’d get either of them unless the other one was already one of our starting 5
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hope this doesn’t turn into a “deepest bench in the league” team like it was a few years ago with everyone playing 20 mins per. If D’Antoni became the head coach like I wanted we wouldn’t have this problem. He plays 8 guys when he’s feeling extremely generous
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 1:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s funny how Taj Gibson is going to be the most controversial figure on the team this season… between the Taj v. Tyrus and Taj v. Dejuan Blair (who appears to be in the best shape of his life) debates
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 1:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
at least Blair
has a different skillset than Tyrus. I don’t get what Taj actually does better than Tyrus, plus he’s older, shorter, and slower.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you're missing the obvious
Taj is the quickest off the floor to block a shot..and he’s mature.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blair is so mature
he has the knees of an 80 year old.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
hahahahahaha
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess its a good thing then
that we didn’t waste a precious late first round pick (in a crappy draft) on someone who could be a prolific rebounder. We got JJ and Taj..potential starters for the Bulls!
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Finally, let it be known that I am rooting for Taj to contribute to this team’s success in a limited role this season
by juicewolta on Oct 21, 2009 2:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i'm just watching the Orlando game right now...
i’m sold.
but really thought, i agree with YFBB that you start the 5 best players. that would be Noah TT Deng Salmons Rose. and looking at a few preseason games, what if the real argument is Taj over Deng? i dunno. Deng just isn’t showing me consistency yet, just like before. i just wouldn’t give the rookie a starting job outright. let him prove himself in some reg. season action first. but at least in this Orlando game, Taj is showing better decision-making. Tyrus’ attitude is just all wrong. he’s already making faces after one foul call and then placing the ball on the court purposefully after a second quick foul. i think if Taj does well this becomes a real debate 15-20 games in.
and as far as what i mentioned about Deng, i just think Lu would be useless off the bench. i feel he needs heavy minutes to get his game going. he’s never struck me as a guy that plays well in spurts.
…and Brad Miller is a pro.
we went out for pizza after the game. -dave wannstedt
by BULLieving in Miami on Oct 21, 2009 2:36 PM CDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
What are we basing the "Tyrus is better than Taj" argument on?
Glen Davis destroyed him in the playoffs last year, and Tyrus was benched for it. Skiles and VDN both gave him the starting job at the beginning of 2008 and 2009, and he lost it within a month both years. His career APM is around -1, and he’s shown no overall improvement offensively since his rookie year. And suddenly he has to have all the possible PF minutes?
Forget about the #4 pick vs. #26 pick. The goal is building the current roster into a contender, not getting return on all our investments. What we have is a defensively gifted but inconsistent 23 year old and a less-athletic but more skilled and consistent 24 year old. The 23 year old is the better rebounder and has more upside, the 24 year old is the better shooter.
Who knows who’s better now. The argument for starting Tyrus is he has more longterm value. Taj, because he could be a rotation player for years, should get a chance to prove that with consistent reserve minutes.
by YaoPau on Oct 21, 2009 3:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"Consistent"
In the pre-season. In 7 games. Oh lord. Some statistical guru doesn’t know the meaning of small-sample size… or is ignoring it completely.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 21, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Eh, nitpicking
More consistent than Tyrus is what I said, and that’s more a shot at Tyrus than anything else. But you’re right about a lack of concrete evidence.
by YaoPau on Oct 21, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only Tyrus didn't have those spectacular games
they we wouldn’t have to worry about darned inconsistencies.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking of saying
“right, he occasionally puts the team on his shoulders, but he kills us just as much”
But before that I looked at the numbers. He basically started the last 62 games of the season + playoffs. In that time, he had 11 double-doubles with a TS% over .550. Just seven times did he have at least 10 (field goal misses + turnovers) with a TS% under .500, and five of those times he posted a double-double.
I guess I just remember the 2-17 game against Boston, and my cringing whenever he took an 18footer in the playoffs. But looking at the entire resume, he rarely cost us games.
by YaoPau on Oct 22, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Everyone remembers that.
It sucks ass. I remember it, too, but i remember it as the first game of the year when Del Negro later said that they want Thomas to continue to take the shots. It’s why Scotter’s continual monthly breakdowns were so helpful. You could see he was pretty good and just sorta bad the rest of the year. He was rarely horrible save for maybe a game here or there.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 22, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is the argument that Taj is more skilled and consistent than Tyrus?
Tyrus has outplayed Taj in the preseason and has shown flashes of great play during the regular season as well. Tyrus put up a 15.9 per in 27 minutes per game last season. Taj has not rebounded as well as Tyrus and he fouls at a MUCH higher rate. His only offensive move is taking open jumpers. Taj has also been gifted by the fact that the Bulls have played 5 preseason games against Minnesota, Milwaukee and Indiana.
Tyrus has shown in several NBA games that he has the potential to be a very high end starter. He is entering what could possibly be his last year with the Bulls, and thus their last chance to evaluate and retain him. And we are talking about benching him for a guy who is averaging 5.9 rebound per 36 minutes of play?
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 21, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, as tyger said, there's not enough evidence
It’s possible that Taj shoots 35% on jumpshots like Tyrus does when the real games start. The argument was that Tyrus isn’t necessarily better than Taj, and I took it a step too far.
by YaoPau on Oct 21, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody gives a fuck about the preseason but rookies
So Gibson looks good. When the games start for real, he won’t be playing against bored veterans and training camp fodder.
by Big D on Oct 21, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taj will have a ton of chances to prove his rotation player status
When we’re up by 20 or more likely we’re getting creamed. But for the love of God, it’s not a contest until he does something, anything in the regular season.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus is superior to Taj in every way, shape, and form.
Present me with stats that show that Taj is more skilled than Tyrus and I’ll accept it.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on Oct 21, 2009 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you watch the Boston series again
You will see Big Baby scored alot of points and I’d say around 80 percent came when Tyrus was on the bench. No way did Big Baby do better head to head, no way! I challenge you on that!
by Mr Rhythm on Oct 21, 2009 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quit it with the challenges.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on Oct 21, 2009 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stupid that's what I do, I challenge people. if Mr Rhythm wasn't so groovy I'd be the Challenger!
by Mr Rhythm on Oct 21, 2009 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer the last six letters of my username actually.
Not the first six.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on Oct 22, 2009 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
pistols at 20 paces!
i'm hot for teacher
by DLRoth on Oct 21, 2009 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the career APM thing is nonesense. Tyrus was a +4 guy for the first two years and then had a bum season
last year, because Vinny didn’t know how to use him and because he took the year off from defense. Tyrus did improve offensively, though. His jumper was better (slightly) and he scored more efficiently. His ORtg improved from 93 as a rookie to 101 as a second year player to 104 last year. He’s done plenty to improve offensively. He’s just got to combine that offensive production with the activity level we saw from him on the defensive glass and on his one on one defense that he had in his first two years.
Also, Taj is pretty bad on the defensive glass (significantly worse than Tyrus), isn’t as good a shot blocker, fouls too much. I think it’s too early to say that Taj is the better shooter based on a few preseason games, when his FT% indicates that those numbers might be bollocks.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have noticed the Tyrus seems to have lost weight if thats possible..
And I remember in his second year they talked about him putting on muscle and developing some post moves and that was the big deal back then. He gained the muscle but never really developed down low.
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 3:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Let's get a few thing clear...
The fact that Tyrus has a problem with the decision sharply underscores how insecure and immature he remains.
TT has been playing professionally for several years, and is still a huge, underachieving question mark. In that context, is it really so outrageous to suggest that a (thus far) overachieving rookie be given a serious opportunity?
If the Bulls coaches had any brains, they would focus on developing TT as a defensive player, where most of potential obviously lies. The best way to build his confidence would be to create a defensive scheme in which he would become the league’s best and most intimidating shot-blocker. It could be done, and his confidence on the offensive end would likely increase as a result.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Oct 21, 2009 6:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus was a project.
And one that the Bulls did little to develop despite knowing he was raw from day one. Even with that against him he has shown sparks of being a very good player and has worked all off season to better himself for a make it or break it year. This should be the first year where Tyrus shouldn’t be looking over his shoulder for fear of the Joe Smiths and Goodens of the league being used as a crutch at his expense. Instead Vinny seems to think he needs to do object lessons with a guy who historically doesn’t do well with symbolic benching. Tyrus doesn’t have the “I’m an island” mentality of BG who could take crap like that and still keep his head in the game. It effects Tyrus and he has been giving the org those signals constantly since day one. It is in everyone’s best interest to find ways of bringing out the best in their players. The Bulls don’t do this.
Taj spent four years in college. Of course he is coming into the league with a few more skills than the average raw rookie. He also hasn’t shown anything more than you’d expect from a guy with his resume during the preseason. He has the look of a very good bench player which is a compliment to him. Playing the TWolves and Bucks twice each has obviously got the guy confident. Preseason has been good to Taj. Let him hold on to that when he is waiting on the bench to come in and use up all of his fouls.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A rather long-term project, no?
“He also hasn’t shown anything more than you’d expect from a guy with his resume during the preseason.”
I disagree. I’d say that he has shown precisely the crucial mental traits that more talented players (e.g. TT) often lack.
There are overachievers and underachievers in all professional sports. And what separates them? The mental component.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Oct 21, 2009 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really.
You can be smart and work hard and never have the talent to be more than a solid bench player who hopes to be an assistant coach (or coach apparently) after their stint in the NBA. Being earnest doesn’t make you a starter on a good NBA team. At least it shouldn’t.
The Bulls have done zero favors to Tyrus. Think back to his prior with years us and the crap that went down with Wallace and Griffin’s and locker room cancer, losing his mentor PJ Brown, coaching changes, team mutiny, team sponsored public outings for issues that for other teams wouldn’t hit the media, a media that instantly soured on him, being benched for vets like Smith, Gooden, and Noc, putting together a few excellent games and then being bench (and this happening over and over again)… When other teams get a high draft pick who is a raw project they hire a coach for him. We just got a big man coach at the end of last season! If he goes to another team I have little doubt he’ll take off. I’m just hoping it happens here.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
jeeze.
The fact that Tyrus has a problem with the decision sharply underscores how insecure and immature he remains.
So if a coworker of yours received accolades you were competing for in spite of the fact that he was less experienced, less talented and has not even done as well as you in his scant experience, you would be fine with this?
Monkeys are like nature's humans.
by TheMoon on Oct 21, 2009 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Look...
TT has had plenty of time to develop and prove that he deserves to treated like a solid and consistent NBA starter, and he has failed to do so.
I have been more critical of VDN than almost anyone else, and still believe that he is a tremendous liability. However, Thomas continues to display the same mental traits that have prevented him from coming close to fulfilling his potential thus far.
If you believe that he needs to start in order to fulfill that potential, then you are essentially making my point for me.
No one is suggesting that TG is at this moment a better player than TT, nor that he has more physical gifts. But as he is already demonstrating with his play that the mental aspect of the game is HUGE, and he is already well ahead of TT in that regard.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Oct 21, 2009 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but if tajs mental powers (maybe telepathy? he looks like he might.) dont result in better production, who cares?
thomas is simply better than taj, and i cant help but feel that a lot of people who want taj to start feel that way not because they think it is in the best interests of the team, but because tyrus’ talent/production gap is an irritant to them and they would like to see him punished for his failure. for now, hes the better player. let him start. i swear no other .500 or better teams let their draft picks immediately come in and take the starting spot from the previous years starter while that starter is still on the team.
Monkeys are like nature's humans.
by TheMoon on Oct 21, 2009 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the hell was he supposed to say?
“Yeah, I don’t care if I come off the bench, as long as the check clears every two weeks.” Any competitive player worth a damn wants to start, and wants to play as many minutes as possible.
by Big D on Oct 21, 2009 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't matter what he says...
and I’m all for competitiveness. It’s his obvious insecurity that’s a concern, and a problem. He’s had years to prove that he is an obvious starter, and he hasn’t made the point clearly with his play. That’s what matters.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Oct 21, 2009 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yay armchair psychology!
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont' understand
Tyrus is an obvious starter…too bad only one man’s opinion counts during the game.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not complicated
the point is that it SHOULD BE TRIVIAL! In other words, if Thomas is an obvious choice to start, then he will prove that with his play, and the line-up for the first game won’t matter in the slightest.
The fact that everyone is making such a big deal out of it underscores their lack of confidence in TT.
by badnewsintennisshoes on Oct 21, 2009 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
our coaches strength
isn’t noticing/practicing the obvious. You would think saving timeouts at the end of close playoff games would be obvious. You would think that not switching on every pick and screen when your guards are outsized is obvious. This is to say this is not on Tyrus as much as the guys that determine playing time.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
nope, I'm plenty confident in TT. Not confident in Vinny or this Org.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nocioni has started over Thomas.
How the fuck is having a total lack of confidence in our coaches’ decision-making [past+future] a lack of confidence in the player we all think should be starting?
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 22, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't care what anyone says Tyrus will be starting against the Spurs.
Rose
Salmons
Deng
Tyrus
Noah
This is crazy talk.
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 6:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
sadly it's looking more like
Hinrich
Salmons
Deng
Taj
Noah
with Miller, Tyrus, Pargo and JJ coming off the bench…
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rose?
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or are you saying he'll still be hurt?
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 9:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he's buying into the lie.
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
did i miss something?
I thought Rose was questionable for game 1? BTW looking at the lineup makes me sick…I sorta miss Eddie Robinson.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you don't really think Rose is hurt do you?
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm..I really thought he was hurt?
Didn’t VDN say he wasn’t sure about Rose playing the first game?
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just kidding.
part of me thinks it’s just to keep him out of preseason games.
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Oct 21, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I kinda serious I don't think he's that hurt.
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 22, 2009 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 22, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DeJuan Blair might singlehandedly outscore that lineup
by Sports2 on Oct 22, 2009 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, if DeJuan Blair was on our team,
he’s either be a RoY lock to the chicago media, or he’d be doing nothing because Vinny would tell him to stand at 18 feet and shoot jumpers.
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 22, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
at least he'd start.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 22, 2009 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't wait till this whole thread becomes moot at the beginning of the season.
(God willing)
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 6:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
again.
it only started because Doug advocated the move, so I went into the actual merits of the move, not the possibility of it happening.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know, I know Matt...
It’s not a commentary on you at all. I just can’t wait for the season to start… So I won’t be depressed until AFTER the circus trip.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't help that this is the team
that started Thabo and Gray last season. :( It isn’t like it is far that far off of reality. Which is what makes us all nervous.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing about that though...
Gray sucks, true, but at the start of last season Noah was woefully out of shape and I think we had Gooden as our other big? Not much there, just a big bag of suck at the 5. As far as Thabo goes, I chalk that up to the ridiculous notion that BG HAD to come off the bench. It was the gospel according to Skiles and VDN was merely carrying the torch forward. Thankfully both were rectified by the end of the season. And now THIS is a new year. Even the most hating of VDN fans has to think that he will start it off right… Right? RIGHT? Oh God please let that be right.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the idea
of Thabo starting last season was having a “taller” shooting guard.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Oct 21, 2009 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True...
But do you think it would have happened if BG wasn’t a former 6th man of the year, and/or Skiles went through great pains to point out how effective BG was coming off the bench? Or, knowing what we now understand to be that the org had no real intention of signing BG at the end of the season and probably wanted Thabo (or anyone else) to look like our starter so we wouldn’t have buyers remorse over signing Deng while kicking our sixth man to the curb… Not losing our “starter”. How sad is that last sentence by the way?
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was never
a BG fan so I don’t share the feelings that BG got screwed that some on here do.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Oct 21, 2009 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BG was a sixth man of the year as a rookie on a playoff team.
There arem’t many rookies that can do that. He played above his expected level. Anyone who would use that against him or as a justification for anything would be stupid. Idiots. I"m not saying you think that Khalid, but that if the Bulls did, as you suggest maybe they may have (probably out of pure speculation, but still), then the Bulls are fucking stupid, and might just start Taj Gibson.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 21, 2009 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
there arent many rookies that can do that...
in fact…there have been none since, and none before….bg is the only rookie to ever do that…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Oct 21, 2009 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know (well, guessed) that.
Sure, most rookies who are as good as gordon don’t get on playoff teams. And if they do, they aren’t a significant part. The situation was rare.
But since then, people have said how great Gordon is as sixth-man. What if they had given it to someone else and had given Gordon ROY instead of Emeka Okafor, which a lot of people thought should have happened? Gordon’s entire career with the Bulls would have been defined differently.
The Bulls are fucking stupid.
People should remember that while they have the right to their opinion, they are not entitled to be taken seriously. --Bruce Bartlett
by tyger1147 on Oct 22, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea about a few months ago
i was thinking the same thing, had gordon won the roy, it wouldve been completely different…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Oct 22, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I guess I can see that...
And obviously it is speculation.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BG was the best backup in the league his rookie year.
And he’s merely above average as a starter, but putting him in as a starter instead of a backup puts his talents to better use.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on Oct 22, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
a case could be made (and it was by John Hollinger)
that the best backup in the NBA that year was….
Tyson Chandler.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 22, 2009 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll be depressed when BG7 hits a game winning three over Rose and then
grabs his nuts.
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it would be hinrich
and hes not shooting over hinrich…..
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Oct 21, 2009 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sure he can
the question is: before or after Hinrich fouls him?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 22, 2009 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll get to see how it feels to lose on a 4-point play
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 22, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I thought I read somewhere that BG routinely tore the opposing guards to
shreds in practice… I’ m not looking forward to the Detroit games.
by silentpete on Oct 22, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
heh///
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Oct 22, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm almost hoping Taj starts
just to watch some of these Bull’s fan (including me) throw a tantrum. Sadly I have no confidence in our coaching staff and would not be surprised one bit to see TT riding the pine.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll be at opening night.
so if they show someone leaving during the starting lineups to get hit by a Madison bus, that was me.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
ha ha
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have enough traffic.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 22, 2009 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is nothing but practice for the season
And 500 comments of pure thread bombing fun.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 21, 2009 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
KC was on CTL
tonight and said he thinks Taj will start next Thursday. He does not agree with that but it’s his gut feeling. He also thinks Rose will not play Friday night but will be ready to go Thurs.
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Oct 21, 2009 6:58 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Ugh to all of that.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he kinda hinted the injury was baloney as well.
did you read into that?
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
Recipe for Disaster;
C'mon Cubs, hurry up and blow this so I can relax.
by Bluekoolaide on July22, 2009 3:08 PM CDT
by sue369 on Oct 21, 2009 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm...
neither did I…
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks for that nugget (honest)
see? we’re not crazy for being afraid. This team is screwy.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 21, 2009 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
KC has peeps in the Org.!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 22, 2009 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
here we go...
it’s just going to be more ammunition for people pointing to Tyrus pissed off on the bench and calling him “immature” and “unprofessional”….I can’t believe I’m actually rooting for a Bull’s player to play so badly that there would be no dumb rotations this year. i thought that was gone for good once Larry Hughes left town.
by diedaily23 on Oct 21, 2009 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow. Unbelievable. Even for this organization.
Well, not really.
by Illini15 on Oct 21, 2009 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can someone explain to me why it would be bad to sign Tyrus to a fair contract?
is it that they won’t have the money in 2010 for Bosh or Wade? If that is the case my hate for Kirk and Deng might come to a boiling point in my pathetic little life. Which nothing will happen. I’m retarded. I no longer understand Bulls topics.
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 21, 2009 7:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well it comes down to what you consider a fair contract for tyrus is. My feeling is if he isn't going to be worth the money he will demand because even if he does break out this year then he will just dissapear when he gets his payday.
by Teh Immortal Batman on Oct 21, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FYI, somewhat relevant (I'm an ass)
“Blazers give Aldridge 5 year extension”http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;ylt=AmNxWihor1HimhKPsDX4Hq8vLYF?slug=aw-aldridgeblazers102109&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 7:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately I'm an idiot too (can't figure out how to post links)
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vinny called to tell you that you've been benched.
I’ll be starting in your place. I might not have much to say, and don’t even ask me about stats, but I am available and have posted a good % of accurate links in my blog-a-bull career. It is for the best really.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
WHAT!!!
Don’t I even get my entitlement minutes?
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
You can get weekend and holiday minutes.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
I'd rather be traded.
Maybe Canus Hoopus, or Blazer’s Edge. Those guys will really “understand” me. I just know it!
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
How about we let you go for nothing.
And you can hang out over at the Detroit blog.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Ouch...
That’s fine, but good luck replacing all my talking points.
"When a hyper-intense guy looks for ways to fire himself up, yeah, it pretty much comes out as wild eyed psycho lunacy." - Jeff Clark from C's blog on KG
by Khalid El-Amin on Oct 21, 2009 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
This whole thread of conversation / metaphor has been a total win. Well done.
1. Cut a hole in a box
2. Put your Kirk in that box
3. Make some team open that box
by fundamentallysound on Oct 21, 2009 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Everything in this line of discussion has been recced.
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 22, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+6
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on Oct 22, 2009 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's about consistency, really.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 22, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Tyrus is not going to be an option, or at least a better one than Taj for Vinnie, why didn’t the Bulls tried to trade him during the offseason
It could have been the best solution for all. This is just another sign how things will end up with Tyrus. We will let him walk in the end of the season just as we let BG. I feel sad when I think of this, but we won’t make any trade for Bosh/Amare during the season and in the summer, when we pursue one of them, other teams will come in and offer a contract to Tyrus. Since the Bulls will be so focused in getting the big fish, they’ll forget Tyrus and let him walk for nothing…
Pargo = Larry Hughes 2.0
by bull83 on Oct 21, 2009 8:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
A sign your team sucks at talent evaluation: Taj over TT
Or, also a sign your team sucks at maximizing it’s assets: Taj over TT
Way to torpedo TT’s trade value while making your team less effective. The Swirsky/North clip was transcendentally insipid. Taj has 6 fairly mediocre pre-season games and he’s an NBA starter? He’s good because he’s so heady and hustles? WTF.
Taj Gibson only starts on a bad NBA team. If the Bulls choose to be such a team, it’s hard to hope they’ll be any good even if they were to get a max FA in 2010.
Being cheap is bad enough. Being cheap and stupid is no way to go through life.
by hitlesswonder on Oct 21, 2009 9:12 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Were they 6 mediocre pre-season games or 6 average pre-season games?
Be careful, there’s a huge difference in this thread.
by jpm356 on Oct 21, 2009 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
He gets off the ground to block shots faster than anyone they've ever seen!
Well, except for our two current starters at PF and C, but don’t tell them that.
I support the Tornado Release [See: Joakim Noah]
by Prevenge on Oct 22, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus, if he jumps so quickly then why did he loose that jumpball to ryan anderson?
Monkeys are like nature's humans.
by TheMoon on Oct 22, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you won this thread.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 22, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm impressed
Close to a 100 comments on what the word “mediocre” means, commenters busting out their educational credentials, and at least 6 different circular arguments.
I love this site.
The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 21, 2009 10:37 PM CDT reply actions 4 recs
Hold the presses!
Taj for team captain?! Apparently if he had a few more weeks to gain support, huh?
Gibson isn’t captain material — yet — and the role of an NBA captain probably is less important than, say, in the NHL. But an argument can be made that for the first time in several seasons, the Bulls have several viable candidates for leaders.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/chi-22-bulls-chicago-oct22,0,3043713.story
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 21, 2009 11:58 PM CDT reply actions 4 recs
And I just love how in the list of "viable candidates" that they are sure to list Hunter and Pargo but never once Rose.
No mention of Rose at all.
Uh, this should probably be a fanshot.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 22, 2009 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I find it strange as well
Sure, Rose is quiet. But it’s not like being a captain ever meant much anyway, and Hinrich and Deng were never big talkers either. Just give Rose one spot. Do NOT give it to Hunter, he’s already ceremonial assistant coach.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 22, 2009 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taj is the gift that keeps on giving
from the pure disgust all posters felt when he was picked 26 instead of Blair, to his MEDIOCRE but surprising play (only because everyone assumed he would suck), to his now starter’s status, and soon captaincy – Taj is the comedic gift no Bulls fan ever asked for.
I’m predicting Taj runs for, and wins, the Senator seat left open by President Barack Obama. Tajmentum is sweeping Chicago!
by Basketball Smurf on Oct 22, 2009 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
recced
I’m just waiting for the math professor to correct your use of the word mediocre…
by diedaily23 on Oct 22, 2009 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
This love for Taj is getting way out of control
A rookie for captain?! This is just stupid. Noah should be the captain, not Taj – wtf are the people thinking? -, Hunter, Pargo – give me a break – or even Deng. Noah has every quality to be a good leader. Never gives up, has a lot of passion and his style of play motivates everyone on the floor.
Pargo = Larry Hughes 2.0
by bull83 on Oct 22, 2009 7:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rose and Noah are the obvious captain choices imo
Neither were mentioned in the article…
by YaoPau on Oct 22, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's gotten to the point where
every time I visit this site I expect the top article to say that Tyrus was traded. This organization sucks. This is Chicago G-d dammit, we deserve better than Vinny, Pax, Gar, Krause, Reinsdorf, etc.
Metal sharpens metal.
And this guy right here understands and knows what leadership is all about: The coach, the hall of famer......... Dick Butka! George Ryan
by dakoose on Oct 22, 2009 12:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As someone who wants to see Tyrus start over Taj Mahal, I think I have a solution.
Fire Vinny the ninny and hire Rod Blagojevich whose philosophy is “if you wanna play you gotta pay”. Since TT makes $4.74 million while the imperial rookie is apparently being vastly underpaid at only $1.04 million, it seems Thomas could easily slip a couple of hundred thou under the table to our new coach (which is double what his asking price was for a senate seat) and thus guarantee his number will be called when the starting lineups are announced. Doing things the “Chicago Way” also helps maintain our civic pride among those who are not sports crazed but big fans of our local politicians.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that the coaching knowledge dropoff would be almost negligable and more than offset by the newly inspired and revitalized man-child finally getting what he craves without worrying about the infamous Vinny quick hook and thus will perform at his ultimate max of 75% which is still better than Taj at 100%.
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on Oct 22, 2009 2:41 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
this is like
when everyone was proclaiming sarah palin the winner of the debate vs. joe biden just because she wasn’t as terrible as people were expecting.
hate to drag politics into it, but i felt like it was the most apt comparison.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Oct 22, 2009 8:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Please don't say that Tyrus is Joe Biden.
That is insulting. Both Palin and Biden should have been disqualified from the public sphere.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 22, 2009 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
politics should be disqualified
from the blogabull sphere…. I watch basketball as a diversion from the real world… which is too damn depressing to discuss. Basketball is more fun!
by 72-10 on Oct 22, 2009 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I didn't start it.
And I honestly never met anyone who liked either one. Which is why I have no idea why someone would equate Tyrus with Biden. He have negative connotations that goes across the lines.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 22, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
true enough
I’m just say’n… not trying to be mean or anything. I get your point though….
By the way, I’m a Brewster’s Millions supporter… Vote for “None of the Above!”
by 72-10 on Oct 22, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
insulting to who? :)
just seemed like young, inexperienced person, exceeds expectations but still kinda sucks, being proclaimed the winner over someone who has been around longer who had already shown at least some of what they can do, and wasn’t like they had such a poor performance that they really deserved to be lowered to the other person’s level.
as i said, i didn’t wanna bring politics in it but it just reminded me of everyone clamoring over palin like she had done something so great but it was just that she didn’t fuck up.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Oct 22, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
“shown at least some of what they can do, and wasn’t like they had such a poor performance that they really deserved to be lowered to the other person’s level.”
You are the first person of any party I’ve met that has said something nice about Biden. Most people I know think he is just a warm body that occasionally makes public experiences where you hope he doesn’t have to actually speak at. I sure hope Tyrus has nothing to do with that.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 22, 2009 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok. I'm done. Nothing to see here, folks.
At least until Taj and Tyrus are equated to the power struggles of Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Oct 22, 2009 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
taj = palpy and tyrus = vader?
Tyrus = teeming with more potential then emperor palpatine yet notorious for being emotional and thus rendered/manipulated below….
Taj = the older less skilled but more stable player who uses his stability to lord over the emotional yet more talented Tyrus?
Do I get a prize now?
by Cybit on Oct 22, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
honestly, i don't give a shit about biden
is the comparison exactly equal? no, but i thought the palin part at least was pretty close. everyone was praising her so damn much for just being mediocre without actually doing anything that this reminded me of that. taj can’t be praised for anything given he hasn’t even played in an nba regular season game before. so the fact that he didn’t flub his performance in the preseason was more than we expected, but not enough to garner some undeserved accolades. that’s all.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Oct 22, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and i didn't even mean to start any debate
i was just saying the way people were acting about her was the same way people were acting regarding starting taj. that somehow he wins something based on being better than people hoped for, but not actually comparing him to his competition.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Oct 22, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
(there, i think i finally got my point across)
it wasn’t really about ty/biden, it was the other half of it.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Oct 22, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mediocre or average?
It’s a very important difference.
Things could be worse. We could have kept Boylan.
by stupidgenius on Oct 22, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taj is the antichrist.
I've got this thing and it's fucking golden!
by SoulEater7 on Oct 22, 2009 10:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
wow!!
now that was a bit extreme…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Oct 22, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so i dont have internet for a day and i miss this epic thread
this organization never ceases to amaze me. i figured it used to be just skiles’ bullshit that valued “character” and “consistency” and “not being very good but trying hard,” but apparently it’s systemically built into the organization.
http://ExtendtheGame.blogspot.com
by Calogero on Oct 22, 2009 10:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I actually think I'm for Taj starting over Tyrus
Mainly because this thread is hilarious, and if starting Taj leads to more of these, I’m all for it.
by silentpete on Oct 22, 2009 12:34 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Great post, sad that they are even entertaining the thought of starting Taj over Tyrus.
I think Brad Miller is much closer in skill to Noah than Taj is to Tyrus. Tyrus has looked pretty good in his limited preseason playing time. Taj merely looks like he can hold his own as a bench/spot player, which is all you can really ask for at the 26th pick.
I was one of those unhappy people when we did not take Blair. It sounds like Blair is looking good so far, but I’ll play the odds and say that all those 10-15 teams that passed on Blair because of knee issues had legitimate reasons for doing so.
Maybe Taj can be a starter in 2-3 years if he keeps improving, but I really don’t see how he can start at the 4 on a playoff team when we have a healthy TT. If the Bulls had such little faith in TT they should have picked up Warrick on the cheap, he’s surely better than Taj as well.
by RyPac13 on Oct 22, 2009 4:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hahah, cliffnotes:
- Basically everybody agrees TT should start over Taj and that VDN is stupid to even suggest otherwise.
- Some guy comes in and disagrees.
- People pounce.
- Taj > or Taj = guy decides to nit pick mediocre vs average argument, thinking he stands a better chance at winning that.
- Guy = wrong.
- TT > Taj ensues.
by RyPac13 on Oct 22, 2009 5:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
you forgot the sub-thread of debating whether it's worth debating
always my favorite.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 22, 2009 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the most impressive part
Talking about what kind of degrees everybody has to try and one up the opponent.
"I'm in the Hall already, on the wall already, I'm a work of art I'm a Warhol already"-Jay Z
by bigballa10 on Oct 23, 2009 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whether he starts or not...
Thomas needs to reevaluate his mode of response whenever he is challenged, either verbally or conditionally. No matter what team he is on and no matter what coach, he will be faced with some type of constructed adversity meant to push him toward some higher strata. Thomas has the same media pandering, vaguely muckraking response each time this happens and never turns inwardly to question whether his habits have any effect on his state (which they may not).
That said I am not sure all this bluster isn’t for naught. Is there any evidence that Thomas is actually not getting started or is this just a preseason game? Isn’t this the time to experiment?
I guess it is better for conversation to assume the worse than accept not knowing.
by Super-Structure on Oct 22, 2009 5:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
hahha.
Thomas has the same media pandering, vaguely muckraking response each time this happens.
Thats the weirdest most nonsenical thing ive heard since souleater said byers had “destain” on his face while the team were at the bars.
Monkeys are like nature's humans.
by TheMoon on Oct 22, 2009 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sam mentions TT normal doesnt get baited these days
In his latest mailbag on bulls.com, Sam said Tyrus usually doesn’t get baited by the media these days and that his response was surprising.
by paxson43 on Oct 23, 2009 1:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Based on management's track record, why would anyone assume the worst?
If you can't answer a man's arguments, all is not lost. You can still call him vile names.
Elbert Hubbard
by Tyrusmancrush on Oct 22, 2009 6:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
more evidence adding up
Taj plays with the first unit in Thursday’s practice. (ht: McHale)
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 23, 2009 11:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s true that Tyrus could act better, but I expect more mental lapses from the players than the coaches. After all, the players actually provide us with their skill. If the coach has mental lapses then he isn’t really worth anything.
You see it quite often, a coach screws up and neglects a player, the player has a huge overreaction and it ruins the season for a team. Sure, the player is an idiot, but the coach should’ve never made those mistakes in the first place.
Tyrus can grow up, but VDN is the bigger problem if he really starts Taj on opening night. Even if he doesn’t, his explanation of why Taj was starting the other night was piss poor and made absolutely no sense for the team.
by RyPac13 on Oct 23, 2009 12:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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