Minnesota trade idea (Hinrich-Thomas for Miller-Love and first rounder)
by California Al on Jan 8, 2009 11:46 AM CST
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PrintBesides this specific trade, I'm just as curious as to BaBullers ideas of what type of players are needed: A) for the Rose era, and B) for the SSOL offense w or w/o Vinnie. Here's the trade
First, why I don't like it: trading TT. I'd rather trade Noah, but that leaves us w/o a backup for Aaron. (I can't believe I just typed that sentence. FU, Vinnie!) But you have to give up something to get any working parts back.
Why I think it does work for us in the context of what we're hopefully trying to do here:
A: 2010. We need Kirk off the payroll.
B: I still like Kevin Love, even with his limits. He sets very strong picks when and where they're needed. He and Rose can run a real NBA pick and roll game, maybe even a great one. He is posting a 16 PER already because he knows how to play basketball. Even being a fan and seeing every game at UCLA, I was impressed with how well he played in the tourney. He won't surpass the best PF's in the league, but he will be better than average and a very reliable performer.
C: The offense is screaming for another 40% three-baller. Miller is a first rate shooter. And at 6'8", he's an easy target and MUST be a good defender, right? If he doesn't work, he expires in 2010, but he think he'd work, AND...
D: Miller fills both Nocioni and Hughes' roles! Keep working, Johny.
E: Clears up the contract problems this summer that are caused by TT's RFA and re-signing Ben.
F; A first rounder for trade fodder or a backup PG w Kirk leaving
Why Minnie likes it? They need a starting PG badly to allow Foye to stay at the 2. Also allows them to sorta undo the very unpopular Love-Mayo trade. I mean, if they'd rather have Aaron so that they can move AJ to the 4, YIPPEE! That works too.
As stated at the top, I'm not married to this trade, but it indicates the types of players that are realistic and seem like they fit better with accomodating both Rose's and VDN's needs. If Miller works out, Deng also becomes marginalized for a deal next year. The Noah-TT combo is flawed, and Kevin plays heavy in the paint. He seals off well, boxes, etc. He can shoot some off the pick and pop, and I think adds something that's missing in, ahem, awareness when we're rotating Noah, TT and Gooden.
Fire away.
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I think asking for a first-rounder is a bit excessive
I sort of like the idea, actually. Depends on how much the Bulls believe that Noah will eventually get his head out of his ass in terms of preparation and commitment. I could see a Noah/Love combo working, especially if Noah improves his shotblocking.
And the Hinrich/Miller swap works for both sides. Unfortunately Miller can’t really play the 2 full-time anymore, but as a backup 2/3 to Gordon/Deng…that’s not bad. As you state though, it makes it even more necessary to boot Noc and Hughes.
I’m always wary of trade ideas that involve a team giving up on a recent lottery pick. Even if it makes sense I get why teams are reluctant to do so. Unless it is Drew Gooden, and we can all see why he’s been traded so often…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 8, 2009 12:11 PM CST reply actions
If they see as much value in Hinrich
as I do for that team, it’s a good deal. And I didn’t ask for a high pick; the worst of the four (Boston’s) would do. And if we don’t trade anyone, booting Hughes and Noc down the bench or out is absolutely necessary anyway.
by California Al on Jan 9, 2009 12:31 AM CST up reply actions
Twolves needs
Center that is tall that cannot be left alone to double Al Jefferson.
PG that can effectively run high screen and roll with Al Jefferson.
SF that can defend and receive passes from the PG or Al Jefferson out of the post.
I do like Love. He has to be an NBA PF. He won’t be able to play any other position. He’s too slow and big for SF and too short for Center. I think his bball IQ is his best asset. I think he will yield very few errors as he develops. I see him as a highly intelligent player that, on that plane, will approach Duncan, Garnett, and Gasol levels.
Thomas isn’t going to help the Wolves with their center needs. Al Jefferson is too good to not supply him with the Center he needs.
I think if you put a package together with Hinrich and Noah you could get Love, Miller(not high on him, would prefer expiring Collins) and their 09 #1(top 3 protected maybe but that would generous).
From the Wolves point of view, this would be a very good starting 5.
PG: Hinrich
SG: Foye
SF: Gomes
PG: Jefferson
C: Noah
We get Love and another shot at Blake Griffin.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
In short
Going forward I think our best additions are going to come from players that are highly intelligent about the game just like Derrick Rose. Know where to be, know where to move, know when to pass, know when to shoot.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 8, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
I'd say Jefferson is a center at this point.
I’ve seen him play a lot since I moved to Minneapolis, and he really isn’t a PF at this point. He may not be 7’, but he has that kind of wingspan. They do need an athletic defensive PF to pair with him, and help cover his defensive liabilities.
Am I too far off track
in thinking that they NEED Hinrich? I mean, he seems perfectly complementary to Foye. I know I’m asking a lot back, but only because I think McHale could have a very dangerous lineup, and if he really does end up with 4 first-rounders this year, a young veteran pg with a defensive/passing bent is a perfect fit. I’d say Jefferson stays at c no matter who they trade for because of Smith and Gomes, not to mention Love. So, yeah, TT’s help d could be a deal maker.
by California Al on Jan 9, 2009 12:26 AM CST up reply actions
McHale has to see how badly the Wolves need an adequate PG
They were playing Kevin Ollie to start and Telfair in relief. Jefferson is way too good to not have a PG that can run the pick and roll with a threat to shoot, pass, and still defend at a high level.
Hinrich gets players like Foye and Wade to the highest realm of success.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
What do you think of Love?
Is he worth giving up T2?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 9, 2009 7:31 AM CST up reply actions
No.
I haven’t seen Love, but I have seen enough of T2’s raw talents and say NO.
I don’t think the Bulls under any circumstances should trade Tyrus (unless say Miami comes offering Wade of course :) ).
If we let Tyrus go, he will become a star elsewhere and might be the thorn to make me boycott this team. I knew Tyson would do well in another uniform, and he has, but I know there’s a big risk that Tyrus who is more athletic and has more talents on both ends than Tyson and Curry combined ever had, that he should be viewed untouchable barring real superstar….
I mean he’s also starting to get it and is 22….no way we trade him for the BB nephew, and while at the time given our makeup LMA would have been a better pick (because he was more ready to fill a need) I still see Tyrus as the future much much better pro if it gels.
I’d rather it not gel and Tyrus stay until he’s in his late 20’s, then see him finally start to pull it together (whchi he IS doing) and we trade him based on prior mistakes….
Kids with Tyrus’s height, ball handling (Raw), passing (raw), natural defensive tendencies (there), shot blocking ability (There), athleticism, and shooting touch (raw, but the arc is there and the jump shots are starting to fall again), just are too risky to move…..
If Toronto panics about being able to re-sign Bosh,
I would be OK with TT being part of a trade package.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 9, 2009 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
What bother me about Love is just how much he struggles to finish.
He can post some, but even his hook shot always seems to be in danger of getting blocked. Layups are even difficult because he has to shield defenders. He’s also always going to be a defensive liability. He’s going to have to become a tremendous jump shooter if he’s going to be a good scorer. I wouldn’t mind him because I love big man that are good passers and can shoot, but I’d have a tough time moving Tyrus for him.
Outside of the current Bulls' context, I agree with you
But unless and until it’s no longer Pax’s team, I think that the ability to facilitate team play and ball movement are as key as the iso skills. Personally, I think a smart pf helps Rose a lot more than TT’s potential for alley oops.
by California Al on Jan 10, 2009 1:07 AM CST up reply actions
I wasn't thinking about alley oops at all.
I was thinking about Tyrus’s defense and his ability to get to the foul line on offense. Maybe it’s impossible with the current management, but I’ve been relatively pleased by the last few weeks when it comes to Tyrus.
Every team in the NBA needs the center you described
That’s like saying that that’s what the Bulls should try to get for Hinrich. Good luck. They drafted Love, so apparently there’s no compulsion felt to move AJ back to pf. I think a Jefferson-Smith fc is better than Noah-Jefferson. They’re stacked at the 4 right now.
by California Al on Jan 9, 2009 12:37 AM CST up reply actions
They can sign Ben Gordon in the offseason
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 8, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
The T-Wolves
Aren’t trading Kevin Love at all, especially this soon after it appears the Mayo trade isn’t working to their initial advantages.
What were they going to do with OJ Mayo?
Start three combo guards?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 8, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
Trade McCants.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 8, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions
Didn't they trade Mayo because...
He said he wouldn’t play in Minnesota anyway? (IE: demand a trade, cause a PR stink, etc.)
I seem to remember hearing that, but maybe I just made it up.
But if it’s true, it doesn’t really matter how the Love for Mayo deal works. It’s like blaming Charlotte for trading Kobe for Divac. Of course they didn’t get equal value in return.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 8, 2009 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
i don't know
Is Memphis really a better PR place? Look at Gasol, who wasn’t viewed as much by folks who didn’t watch him until he got out of there and proved what he can do. Many fans thought he was given an all star nod because the team with Battier/etc overachieved and it was a Sczerbiakian fluke…..no sirree bob, Gasol was good and now he’s getting the hype he needed.
Why oh why didn’t we trade the untradable Deng for him, I’ll never know….bad move. I like Deng too, I do, but bad move….
I have no idea about the PR situation in Memphis...
Other than it obviously sucks.
It does seem worse than the situation Minn IMO, and I wondered the same thing when Mayo ended up there.
Maybe it was all just a rumor that he wouldn’t play for the T-Wolves. Who can ever say for sure?
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 8, 2009 2:16 PM CST up reply actions
Market wise
The Twin Cities is a much better place to play than Memphis. Your main competition is hockey and it’s pretty popular up there.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
I think they just liked Kevin Love better.
there were plenty of evaluators underwhelmed by Mayo’s college numbers.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 8, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
Found this...
Have no idea if it’s valid…
“O.J. Mayo refused to come to Minnesota to work out for the Timberwolves before the draft”
Link below…
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 8, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions
It also makes no sense...
To draft Love when they have a franchise PF in Jefferson.
The only team in the NBA with a worse GM in my opinion.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 8, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions
That's right...
I forgot. His stain however will last FOREVER!!!
And he did trade Mayo for Love… But who among can say they have never traded mayo for love? That stain lasts forever too by the way.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 8, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
offensively they pair fine
defensively not so much.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 8, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions
Get that, I do
But considering they like him better, they ain’t trading him 4 months into his rookie year for our guys….
Mayo's got some baggage
He may have more Larry Highes in him than I’d like. If Larry shot at Ben’s rate, I’d still consider him a horseshit player with a “f the team, I’ve gotta get mine” attitude. There was a reason that he was available to USC; UCLA, NC, Kansas, etc, all took passes on him.
by California Al on Jan 9, 2009 7:57 AM CST up reply actions
If you swaped Noah for TT I would like this trade
But I don’t see the wolves giving up on Love so soon.
by J Theory on Jan 8, 2009 1:21 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
who's 'us'?
do you have a mouse in your pocket?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 8, 2009 4:01 PM CST up reply actions
I think she's talking about the doll she made out of the clippings after Kirk got his hair cut
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
You shut me right up
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Kirk Hinrich could become the NBA's Nick Punto
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 8, 2009 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
Love the idea,
but I don’t think it’ll happen. Recall the Kevin Love/Kevin McHale slurpfest…they can’t be parted. There’s just too much suction.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
I'm not so sure about the Love love
As soon as McHale went to the bench, so did Love. He’d had a drastic reduction in minutes, but I see he’s getting in the 20’s consistently in January, so the window might be closing. This is not a Hinrich for Miller trade with a TT for Love afterthought. It’s a Hinrich for Love trade, with Miller for Thomas as the equalizer.
by California Al on Jan 9, 2009 12:20 AM CST up reply actions
That's true;
and surprising considering the multitude of glowing photos they took together.
What do you think about Love, however? Is he a long term solution at pf? has he dispelled the worries about his athleticism? role player or future star? I haven’t seen him play at the NBA level, and when I saw him in college I was usually watching russel westbrook.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 9, 2009 7:34 AM CST up reply actions
I got to sit and watch the first Memphis game
nad yes, I thought he was playing his game at will. He moves quickly into favorable positions, and uses his lower body strength to hold it. He’s very strong, and he’s better athletically than you might expect.
You have to remember that he was born and raised to play basketball. He was mentored by Wes Unseld (his middle-namesake!), the best player in NBA history that I can think of to be his skill-coach. Wes was the master of the box-out and outlet passes.
If you look at his rookie PER and rebound per minute numbers, it’s obvious that he has some NBA skills WHERE the Bulls are lacking. I also think that his screen and shoot game complements Rose’s extremely nicely. To the point that if I were Pax, I’d give the TWolves anybody they wanted from this roster. I just think that Hinrich fills their needs so perfectly that it’s a good trade right there; like I said, it’s a Hinrich-Love trade, with Miller and Thomas being the salary equalizers.
Is Jefferson completely off limits?
Suppose we flipped this trade
Bulls trade Deng, Hinrich, Noah
Wolves trade Al Jefferson, Brian Cardinal
While I don’t know that Jefferson is a true top tier talent, he’s quite good. Thomas and Gooden seem to be reasonable complements to him. Love and Noah would be at least somewhat reasonable replacements for him.
De gustibus non est disputandum
No real feel for AJ's situation
But I’m guessing that if he was the main plum in the Garnett deal, he’s untouchable.
by California Al on Jan 10, 2009 12:59 AM CST up reply actions
I wondered the same thing
I know the TWolves tout Al as their cornerstone player, but their team is so deficient in so many areas that he isn’t going to get it done alone (their current winning streak notwithstanding). Like the Bulls, the TWolves need a major overhaul and maybe a blockbuster like this would interest them. I would even throw in a protected draft pick or any other player not named Rose to make this happen.
On the other hand, they've rolled off 4 more wins in a row after beating us.
De gustibus non est disputandum
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