The Raptors are looking to move O'Neal.
Another legit NBA big man is one the market...should the Bulls make an offer? How about Hughes, Noc and Thabo for O'Neal and Solomon...? What would the Raps be looking for...more importantly, does Pax have the cojones to make a deal?
10 months ago
Dionysus2.0
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o'neal is washed up bro
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
by Belize on Jan 5, 2009 10:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
He had a 30/10 game
last week, but you’re right – his injuries are chronic, and his legs are shot. On the other hand, even a one legged ONeal is better than Gray, and this is a perfect salary dump for us.
I’m all about the salary dumps at this point. Free up enough cash to give Millsap a contract the jazz can’t possibly match. With everybody eyeing bosh, amare, et al, we might be able to swoop in and get a young 18/12 guy who’s 23, high character, and plays tough D.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 5, 2009 10:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not a fan of JO.
Don’t think he fits here. This is his 3 team I really think he’s busting. Always hurt. No thanks.
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 5, 2009 10:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well
he’s a big body and a really good defender. We need both.
If we can get him while by dumping a bad contract, that would be awesome.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Jan 5, 2009 10:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET BETTER!!!
trading most of what they have here, save the great and wonderful Hinrich, won’t net this team that good of a player. The players just don’t have the value. The best one can hope for is a salary dump with an okay player.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 6, 2009 8:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry for the caps, but I really think people should realize this.
Including John Paxson. If you want to include Thomas, Noah and/or draft picks, you might be able to consolidate a few players into a good one, but otherwise, if you’re going to be trading Nocioni, just look to get a shorter contract.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 6, 2009 8:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In my opinion...
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 6, 2009 8:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct
Beggars can’t be choosy. O’Neal would make a ton of sense for the Bulls. But it just doesn’t really add up what we have to offer Toronto. Hughes/Gooden/something else (draft pick/thabo/gray) works basketball wise and financially for example, but you need to know what Toronto wants. They need players to make Bosh stick around in 2010. Unfortunately Hughes and draft picks aren’t accomplishing that goal.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
I don’t see why we’d need to trade a pick or young guy. The Raptors need a skad of players to fill out their roster. But they need guys who can contribute now. I actually think the trade I proposed is great for them. Getting three guys who would play heavy minutes for them (Hughes, Gooden, Noc) for basically just one (O’Neal) would be a godsend for them.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 8:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it feels risky we could end up just more short handed
but we do seem desperate
by Camry on Jan 5, 2009 10:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
what about my trade idea a couple weeks ago?
http://www.blogabull.com/2008/12/23/700691/another-trade-idea-woo-hoo
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
by tyrus4prez on Jan 5, 2009 10:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather trade them Hughes and Noc
and then let Gooden expire. But that’s just way too good to be true, me thinks.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Jan 5, 2009 10:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jermaine sucks
But give ’em Kirk, Deng, and Noc for Jermaine and Joey Graham, littering mass amounts of salary everywhere in the Toronto area, then stick it to them by signing Bosh in 2010.
by YaoPau on Jan 5, 2009 11:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Scouts claim that he lacks any lift in his legs.
Get him over here, he’ll fit right in!
by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 6, 2009 1:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Can anyone on the Bulls jump,
except of course Rose and TT?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 6, 2009 7:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben can jump
for his size…use to more in his rookie season though.
by Camry on Jan 6, 2009 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I mentioned this in the Hughes thread I started
Hughes and Noc for O’Neal works great for us. No downside whatsover.
Hughes, Noc and Gooden for O’Neal, Parker, and Joey Graham would work pretty well too, because the Raps are close to the luxury tax just like us.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 7:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
This deal could also be done without sending us Parker and taking someone like Hassan Adams just for their savings
I’d still be inclined to do it.
1- Rose, Hinrich, Hunter
2- Gordon, Thabo, Hinrich
3- Deng, Graham
4- Tyrus, Noah
5- O’Neal, , Noah, Gray
In terms of chemistry and actual needs, this is a tremendous improvement. O’Neal will likely be sidelined pretty often, but he’s way above average in what we need when he does play.
I’d still try to follow it up with another move for a big (with Hinrich), but this would give us a lot more of what we need. And when O’Neal is out, we’re forced to play the young guys more.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 8:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd almost try and keep Gooden since O'Neal will be out a bunch
Also, if Colangelo still believes in Thabo, give ‘em what he wants (especially if Parker is coming back). Aaron Gray too…I bet Toronto fans feel the need for the homeless man’s Rasho.
But yeah, Hughes+Noc should be immediately on the table. It’s a good starting point, they need wing help in the worst.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd prefer to keep Gooden
but like Thabo, he wouldn’t be a deal-breaker.
The way I look at it, Toronto is going to require Gooden though. Without him coming back, they really don’t have anything but Bosh and Bargnani up front. Behind those two, they’ve got… Jake Voskuhl and Kris Humphries? Yikes. Even if you count Noc as a four, they’d really need another somewhat big guy. Gooden, Bosh and Bargnani, with spot minutes of Noc, looks at least like a playoff caliber big man rotation.
So if I’m Colangelo, I say you have to include Gooden.
For the Bulls, yeah, I’d like to keep Gooden, and based on my personal skepticism of Tyrus, I’d like to keep him as well. But practically speaking, if Gooden stays, VDN (or if he gets canned, whomever is coaching for a job after him) will be strongly tempted to let the kids ride the pine and play JO/Gooden both heavy minutes whenever they’re both available.
But above all, I just want Hughes and Noc gone, gone, gone. If trading Gooden is needed to accomplish that, it’s not a backbreaker.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but I heard Aaron Gray is a perfectly acceptable starting center
you forgot I included him.
(fine, include Gooden, deal Hinrich for an expiring big with a pulse)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But why is Toronto doing this?
It puts them no closer to a title and just adds cap problems for their future. How are they convincing Bosh to stick around by keeping Noc for 2011?
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They are convincing Bosh to stick around by adding three more or less starting quality NBA players for one.
The Raptors are nearly our opposite. They’ve got 1 and a half stars (Bosh and Calderon) and almost no role players.
We have a one star and a team stacked with role players who will put a solid team around Bosh. They won’t make it to 2010 with Bosh if they win 20-30 games for the next couple of years.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait wait wait
you can’t honestly believe that Hughes, Noc, and Gooden are starting caliber NBA players. Especially as much as they have been trashed here. Other teams aren’t stupid. They would deal for expirings, but only if you included prospects. In 2010 Bosh isn’t going to stick around because he has Calderon and Noc to play with.
They will either go the veteran star route or the young prospect route. I can’t see the middle no advancement route working with them. Colangelo is one of the more intelligent GMs out there.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but you're a dolt.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
good point
it hampers the discussion, doesn’t it?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. It's painful.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you ever admit when you're wrong?
You trash all these players and then post about how they’re valuable to other teams. If you want to post fantasy trades, at least choose some that make sense.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's next?
Gray and Thabo for Al jefferson. I know the T’Wolves have been looking to add some more size.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've read somewhere that Gray is a perfectly acceptable starting center
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no, I could've sworn...
it doesn’t matter who starts! Starting is a motivational ploy for the bench players? It was all very confusing, so you’re right I may have gotten some of it incorrect.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it doesn't matter who starts
it matters what minutes they play. I know this concept has been tough to grip with you. If you think about it a little harder maybe you can start to understand.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If it mattered,
why does Ginobili still come off the bench for the multiple time champion Spurs. Why does Matt Bonner start? Why?
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because Manu doesn't play 35 minutes a game
He plays less than 30, and always has for his career. There isn’t a single player in the NBA that has his minutes managed like Manu Ginobili, so using him as an example of how the Bulls construct their lineups is pointless.
I don’t know why you’re dissing Matt Bonner, either. A TS of 65% from a guy who shoots jumpshots is ridiculous. They have no other option than to play him because Fabricio Oberto is injured, and Kurt Thomas is a billion years old and being saved for the playoffs. Ime Udoka was supposed to be the heir to that spot, but he’s just not that good.
There is a cosmic difference in starting Aaron Gray, see him play like shit for 10 minutes, then bring in Noah or Tyrus then starting Finley or Roger Mason, slowly break down the opponent defensively, then throw in Manu to finish them off. The Spurs have the luxury of Tim Duncan and can gameplan accordingly, the Bulls are an awful team that allows itself to be more awful by starting Aaron Gray (or in the beginning Thabo).
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 6, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Gray is a top 15 NBA rebounder
He does have positive qualities just like you can drag out Bonner’s TS%.
What does managing minutes have to do with starting. Grays minutes are managed and he starts?
That’s your opinion of 1)Gray always plays horrible to start a game and 2)TT is a huge upgrade as a sub when you don’t know what you’re getting from him night to night. 10-15 mpg doesn’t matter whether it’s the first or in the middle. When Gray plays the last 8 minutes consistently, then complain.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's the whirlwind of new-age basketball philosphy that has me flummoxed
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
shows you don't remember very well...
You still point to no reason why Gray shouldn’t be starting other than you don’t like that he’s slow. But I’m ok with agree to disagree.
by CJ Bulls on Dec 23, 2008 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Starting Gray for example doesn’t affect that in any form or fashion.
You’re right I don’t care if Gray starts or not. I certainly wouldn’t be complaining if he wasn’t.
The last time I checked the newspapers and ESPN, I have yet to encounter someone claiming starting Gray is even a remotely bad decision.
Other than being slow, he does very little else wrong. And Rose plays 38 mpg. So for 28mpg TT and Noah can get time. I doubt those extra 5-10 minutes they miss stunt anyone’s development.
I’ll stop now…
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by NormVanBeer on Jan 6, 2009 2:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gray is a perfectly acceptable starting center
on a D-League team.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 6, 2009 7:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't believe I've trashed all of those players as guys who can't play
The problem, in case other people were wondering, is not whether they can play or not, but that they’re exceedingly awful fits on our team. On the other hand, they’re pretty good fits for their team.
- Hughes can play in some sort of absolute sense, but on a team that’s absolutely stacked with other options at SG, what you get is a dumbass malcontent. I think he’s an idiot, but I actually don’t blame him much for being pissed at his situation. I’d be trying to get out of dodge if I were him too. The Raptors have a gaping hole at SG that he could fill.
- Noc is useful on any team, to some extent, but shouldn’t be over-relied on, and shouldn’t be on the contract he was signed too. This team needs him gone. The Raptors need a 3/4 who can shoot and create some space.
- Gooden is useful on any team too, to an extent, and I’d prefer not to trade him. But because the Raptors would need a player like him if they trade O’Neal and I don’t see him as essential to our future, I’d include him.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, if I'm Toronto you just sold me.
1)Toronto’s hole is at SF. They’re ok with Parker at SG. And Hughes isn’t any better than Parker.
2)Noc is useful, but his contract is long. Past 2010 long. That’s his biggest flaw. So now Toronto is taking on additional salary.
3)Gooden is ok, correct. But he’s more offense and rebounding. JO is more defense and rebounding. The reason they added JO was to protect Bosh. So now who is Drew Gooden covering. He struggled against big centers all year.
So you’re trading them a downgrade at SG, and 2011 contract, and a downgrade inside, yet Toronto makes the deal. Why? So Drew can play 10 more games of inferior D in the middle.
All future moves will be made to win now/keep Bosh happy. This deal accomplishes neither.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're giving Parker too much credit
he’s 33, and trending downwards. as merely players they’re pretty close, and Hughes’ high-usage ways may be actually wanted in Toronto. His dickishness off-the-court likely mitigates it, but with minutes Larry’s a happier dude.
You’re trying to have it both ways with Noc and his 2010 money. He does help them as a current team, yet hurt in 2010. He doesn’t hurt both.
They can re-trade Gooden out if they want. He’s not meant to be the replacement for O’Neal, the point is that whatever fit O’Neal was supposed to be, he’s not on the court enough and it wasn’t working when he was.
If I were Toronto there’s no way I bank on being under the cap in 2010. That just makes it more likely they’ll stink and lose Bosh, not keep Bosh and get another max FA.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fine, if you don't bank on 2010
then you need to get better now. This doesn’t make you better now. You can find some team looking to move a better piece that can help you now. I don’t know why the Raptors would want 2 non-starters and 1 starter from a 14-20 team to save their season.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
(I'll spare the 'it doesn't matter who starts' joke, since you take yourself so seriously)
a case can be made that Hughes/Noc/Gooden/Bosh is better currently than Parker/Moon(?)/whoevertheyplaywhileO’Nealishurt/Bosh
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Especially since you still have Parker and Moon in both cases.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 3:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I blame you for bringing Parker into this :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If you have to make a case,
it probably won’t stand out for Toronto. Especially considering Gooden has played 4 less games than O’Neal this year.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
meh
he sprained an ankle. O’Neal has chronic injuries.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gooden also missed the end of last year
While I agree O’Neal is injury prone, Gooden is no ironman and certainly not a capable defensive replacement at center.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets be honest here
this trade may or may not be a reasonable start
but JO is being payed approx 40mil left on his contract to play 28 min in ~90-100 games over the next year and half. Yes at a fairly high level, but yes theres a risk he plays less or worse. People arent lining up to ship them top prospects. This probably means there just going to keep him.
If we sent them any more than Hughes, Gooden, Thabo and a 2nd rnd pick, I’d be pretty concerned.
by reprisal on Jan 6, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and the Raptors are in serious shit
even moreso than the Bulls, I’d say
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
And O’Neal is about the only sort of piece they have, because their other players they either can’t move (who cares about Jason Kapono) or shouldn’t want to move (Bargnani, Parker).
I went through and tried to figure out who else might have interest in O’Neal, and I can’t fathom many other teams having interest and having anything remotely to offer the Raptors. O’Neal’s salary is so big that it’s hard to make a trade work in many cases.
- Maybe the Knicks if the Raptors would take back Curry. I can’t see Brian Colangelo liking those apples. Or something with Marbury, but I can’t imagine Colangelo is that desperate.
- Maybe the Bobcats? I could see O’Neal being the sort of washed up but big guy that’d appeal to them. They could trade Gerald Wallace and Raymond Felton and other spare parts?
- Maybe Golden state, but would Don Nelson have anything to do with him? They could offer Maggette, Crawford and one of their younger bigs b/c they want to shed salary, but its not an obvious fit.
So unless someone gets really stupid, a Bulls offer of Gooden , Noc, Hughes looks better than those alternatives.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
O'Neal for Okafor and Matt Carroll
saves the team a lot of money long term.
A Maggette/SJax . And the Warriors are rumored desperate to move Maggette.
Dalembert, Lou Williams, etc. for Oneal and Kapono?
Miami for Shawn Marion/Blount
Dallas for Stack, Dampier, Bass
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unrealistic for Bobcats
unrealistic for Warriors
Worse than Bulls package
worse than Bulls package
Mavs one isn’t bad.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unrealistic?
Maybe, but it’s not slam dunk unrealistic. Especially with the Warriors playing horribly and the Bobcats potentially shedding payroll/wanting half-court defensive veterans for Larry Brown
I’m not going to start arguing which is worse. You might be right, but I could see Toronto trying to make a name with a Marion deal. And dropping Kapono’s salary for another defensive center and some young scorers might be a great cure for them.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i hope we make something happen...
i wanted him before the season started… why not now i don’t care if he is old we are not getting worse by getting rid of Hughes, Gooden, or Noc. I don’t really want to give up any young guys for him.
by i_like_turtles on Jan 6, 2009 10:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I've always said there's no point to make a trade just to make one and cause some commotion
But that adage goes out the window when you can bump Hughes and Nocioni to the curb. Jermaine O’ Neal may be old and injured, but he automatically is the best defender on this team. How much respect he would give Vinny is another matter, but I would do this trade immediately.
My question is, he has a player option for 23 million dollars next season. Does that mean he can just stick with the Bulls next year, and then the Bulls get their cap space?
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 6, 2009 10:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I’m not sure what the deal is with his contract.. Ideally I would like his contract to be expriing so we can pay BG, if not it’s not the end of the world since his contract expires before 2010. If he does have a player option for next year and does take it ( I don’t why he wouldn’t) I think the next more if to move Hinrich for an expiring big man and pay BG that way
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
by tyrus4prez on Jan 6, 2009 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he'll certainly pick up the option
and then he’s on the Bulls cap for 2009
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, so this is a huge financial investment for the Bulls
Which means it’s not happening whatsoever. 23 million into one player with a long list of physical problems? I’m sure Pax would rather just pay Noce and Hughes that salary.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 6, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not sure why.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I'm not understanding that one
They’re paying $23M no matter what. I’d rather pay it to O’Neal and have Hughes be someone else’s problem and have Noc be off the books in 2010.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think a trade that doesn't help us, but makes sense for both teams that we've been talking about trading with
Raptors and Kings would be JON for Brad Miller and Kenny Thomas. The Kings get rid of Kenny Thomas’s terrible contract and clear minutes for Hawes because JON will undoubtedly be hurt a lot for the next two years. The Raptors get 2010 salaries and Brad Miller would be a perfect fit with Bosh. A tough defender and great passer to feed the ball to CB4.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 6, 2009 9:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
But they just replace KT's terrible contract with JON's
They’re still paying the same amount of money or thereabouts.
And the Raptors need help in so many places. Is Miller (who’s frequently hurt himself) really much of an upgrade for them?
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 10:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it doesn't solve their need for wing help, but I happen to think Brad Miller is a much much better
player than JON.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 6, 2009 11:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He only looks that way because he played the Bulls last night.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 7, 2009 7:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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