Getting rid of Hughes
by Sports2 on Jan 5, 2009 8:52 AM CST
136 comments
One of the things that folks, myself included, worry about with trading Hughes is screwing up our long-term cap position. We want to be rid of him, but we don't want to take back post-2010 salary to do it. And we want to be rid of him, but we don't just want to buy out his contract, because it could be a "useful trading chip" when it's expiring next year.
Well, I think we've reached the point where we need to consider these options. A few days back, I compared Hughes to Jalen Rose. Many folks might not remember, but we didn't shed any salary in trading away Rose. In fact, it extended our obligations because Jerome Williams' contract ran a year longer than Rose's, and it cost the Bulls $5.8M in total additional salary obligations.
In short, the Bulls both paid extra money and hurt their cap position to get rid of Rose. And a relatively productive player, Donyell Marshall.
They were able to make it up later by taking advantage of Isaiah Thomas, and shed JYD in the Crawford sign and trade deal. I'm not saying that's what I prefer or that would definitely happen again, but it's a point the Bulls should consider. Suppose they take on a player with some 2010 salary. If it's not ridiculously huge (Darius Songaila, who'd been rumored as a Hughes exchange partner, for example) will make $4.8M. That's certainly not great, but it's the sort of thing we might be able to work around. We'd still have another year to try and shed him or other players.
Again, that's not what I want to do. I don't even think it's what we have to do. I think, somewhere out there, is a way to get rid of Hughes that wouldn't take on that sort of space. But at this point, we probably should consider either that or simply sending him away and negotiating a buyout.
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Camby for Q Richardson?
The admittedly goofy NY Daily News is reporting Q Richardson for Camby is being discussed along with a somewhat difficult to understand David Lee (to Portland) and Channing Frye back to the Knicks as well.
That seems pretty wacky to me, but I look at it and think two things.
1. If the Clippers are even willing to consider Q Richardson, they’re probably also willing to consider Hughes.
2. The Knicks need a SG, and they’ll need one even more if they make some variant of this trade. That’d perhaps make a deal like Hughes + Simmons or Thabo for Jerome James and Malik Rose more palatable to them. It ought to be palatable in any case.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 5, 2009 9:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your ideas here...
In that the Bulls may have to take a smaller bad contract in order to remove the Hughes cancer from the team…
I have proposed a variant to your New York trade before, but its been met with a lukewarm response around BaB. We could send Hughes to NY for Malik Rose and Jerome James…we get a defensive minded veteran PF with championship ring and we get a fat guy with six fouls when needed. The deal works capwise.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 5, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do it!
Here’s several others that would work for me:
Trade him and Gooden for Marbury and buy Marbury out.
Trade him and $3M cash for Kenny Thomas or Bobby Simmons
Trade him, Thabo and Gooden for Jason Hart, Ricky Davis and Marcus Camby
Offer that three way trade I suggested the other day (Miller + Hughes to the Mavs, Gooden + Stackhouse to the Kings + Dampier and change to us). Or a trade with OKC (Hughes + cash + Thabo if they want him – for Watson, Wilkins and Petro).
All of those deals wouldn’t hurt anything long run (and actually help) and be massive addition by subtraction. Get it done!
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 5, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are the Bulls even aiming for 2010?
They need to figure that out before they decide what to do with Hughes. That’s called long-term planning, something Paxson might not be familiar with.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jan 5, 2009 9:44 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I think you have to aim for 10.
I mean this team is in trouble. They need the clean up the culture of loosing in that locker room. Derrick Rose is young he’ll be 22 then and you need some vets around this kid.
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 5, 2009 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unless they aim for '09.
In that we could offer young players, expiring contracts this year and next for one of those 2010 free agents in ’09, then immediately sign them to an extension…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 5, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
present Hughes = future Deng
we all know what to expect from Hughes. And, if we can trade him away with Noc for 1 BIG piece, then go for it.
But, stepping back, we should all remember that Hughes was never expected to be a pivotal player. The matter of winning (or losing) was never expected to be on Hughes shoulders. I respect the man for what he is, but this season has also showed me what he is not.
The story of Deng is of contrast to Hughes. Deng can be a bigger, longer problem for the Bulls. While we may be rid of Hughes within a year or two, Deng is expected to be a long term component to the Bulls. A long term liability. So much is invested in Deng, and if he does not perform, the productivity lost will be two fold in money and success.
There are a few major issues with the Bulls, but Hughes’ presence on and participation in the team isn’t one of them.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Jan 5, 2009 12:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Deng won't be a huge liability
He’s a good player when healthy, slightly overpaid, but he plays in the offense. THe problem with Deng is only because we’ll likely lose Gordon, or we’ll lock up both for similar monies and have a good but not great 2-3 tandem for this tenure…..Ben Gordon was and is the player we should have signed first of the two and for Deng money. I don’t understand why after watching the team’s as closely as we did Pax chose the latter….I know fans say one thing, but if you watch the games, Gordon was the only real difference maker this team had in the entire Skiles era….. Our D then would keep things close, and time and again Gordon’s play determined if we won (likely then in a hot streak)….
But still BG is disrespected.
Granted, I’m now almost leaning on letting BG walk this summer, because of the Deng/Nocioni SF salaries and the fact that a Deng/Noc/Gordon trio is a lot of money for 3 guys when our best in the near future player Rose needs to stay on the team and if we ever crack the Thomas code, he’ll be worthy of more $$ than any of them sans Rose.
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess the problem here is that we just paid Deng and we're already admitting he's "slightly" overpaid...
which will only escalate if he doesn’t improve, pronto. Maybe Hughes was only slightly overpaid in the first yr of his contract, too?
Larry Hughes should be Marburried. Period.
by smash! on Jan 5, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
But I’m one who always thought he was slightly overpaid, so I haven’t changed my tune.
Deng won’t kill us unless he is perenially injured like he’s been this year and a time last year…
If he plays, he’ll stay worth that amount. We can’t really trade him at all until next year because of the BYC though, and that’s tough, and with the bit 2010 market, we likely can’t trade him until 2011, unless some blockbuster happens with a Deng and Hughes for a team eyeing cap relief to do a quick rebuild in the 2010 FA class……
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i meant
if he plays he’ll only be slightly overpaid at $2M/year or so more than he’s likely worth given his age and the vast amount of little things he can do. He’ll be valuable on the marketplace, but perhaps not until after the 2010 fa class too…and he’ll be what 25 then?
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, he'll be 24 in april...
Larry Hughes should be Marburried. Period.
by smash! on Jan 6, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It has been written that Deng is tough to trade because he is a base year compensation player for the purposes of the cap. I’ve been wondering if we could package Hughes and Deng for a real player (or a real player plus baggage). I think that combo is an attractive package as Hughes comes off the books in a year and Deng is regarded by many as a good player still with upside. Obviously, the Bulls would need to get something legit in return. A nice benefit of moving Deng is that having him off the books for next season makes way to re-sign BG.
by Stay Chisel on Jan 5, 2009 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
tracy mcgrady or a shawn marion with other expiring contracts would be nice
man up!
by exult463 on Jan 5, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Marion might be nice
TMAC is redundant with Gordon, and TMAC isn’t the TMAC of 3 years ago anymore. He’s falling apart at 29, never won a playoff series, and has been falling pretty significantly (Though in the past few year’s written off) since the 2002-2003 year….
We need a post presence or at best a Post defender. Marion can be a bit of both and he comes off the books this year.
I’ve loved TMAC as a player, but he’s not what we need and is falling apart before our eyes…..and has never really been a solid defender (he’s had the capability, but hasn’t played it). TMAC was more talented than Vicne Carter, had some higher ups than Vince Carter, but the way it’s going Vince might actually go down the better player, because the 29 year old TMAC is falling apart and has had a pretty steady decline the past 3-4 years (with a much sharper decline this year).
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Have you seen Marion
he might be the most washed up 30 yr old in the NBA.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But a washed up
$18M off our books if it allows us to get rid of some bad contracts (unnecessary Nocioni on a team with serious 4-5 holes) and even more unfortunately unnecessary Hinrich (good Hinrich, but not a need with Rose) on a team with 4-5 holes.
And while Marion is a shell of himself, he’s also not being his former aggressive self either.
Either way he can be made as an eraserboard for some bad contracts that the Heat might want, esp in Hinrich as a HInrich-Wade duo would be a great 1-2 with Hinrich’s D allowing Wade to take a slight step back from his awesome D self to focus more on his awesome O self)….
And if Marion does rebound into his Phx self, voila, look at the Bulls….not implausible.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hughes and Hinrich
for Marion and James Jones would work.
Have to resist resigning Marion though, no matter how much he may “rebound”. 10 year age diff w/ Rose means he should be just a half year “rental”, showing Thomas and Deng how it’s done. And then gone.
Heat would have to want Hinrich pretty bad for this, since they can just “rent” Shawn for now too. And avoid dealing with Hughes. But maybe they would?
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jan 6, 2009 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Unless we get him for a mid-level…..or up to $6-7M a year max though….
He’s what 30? He’ll have a few more year’s left…..
But the chances of that are slim, though the 2010 FA class coming on….and Marion’s rather lackluster play on a 1 man show team where he could and should contribute who knows….
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Over the Summer the Heat staff should have noticed
how well Wade was playing defensively OFF THE BALL. This is where his brain and body come together to demonstrate defensive magic. Kirk would be a huge enabler of that skill allowing Wade to play off the primary opponent’s scoring and ball handling threat.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 6, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They're getting
some of that from Chalmers. A pretty good 2nd round pick, no?
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jan 6, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad Pax didn't ink Gordon
That player no trade clause is a powerful option.
I’d offer Deng and Gordon to Sacramento for Kevin Martin and Brad Miller. We’d have to include lots of filler and there Noc would be useful.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Noc isn't useful anywhere
and I don’t see the Kings doing that, especially with the need to pay Gordon this summer. Martin’s already locked into a pretty fair deal.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
I’m pretty sure that if those were the particulars of the trade, the Kings would be well under the cap next year. Meaning, of course, that they could re-sign Gordon.
There’s still the risk, obviously, that Gordon leaves, but at that point one might still say Deng is equivalent to Martin (except as a 3, but they’ve got a couple other 2s) so they haven’t lost much.
It’s basically Gordon for Miller, which at worst works out to cap space and at best works out really well, and Deng for Martin, which is a push, but probably a slight upgrade positionally.
For the Bulls… I dunno. We still don’t deal with the really obvious problem which is Hughes.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 5, 2009 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"one might still say Deng is equivalent to Martin"
I don’t think anyone would say that.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I'd say that
Not exactly the same players, obviously, but they seem fairly comparable to me.
- Nearly the same salary
- Similarly not great athletes who rely on their skills and the system to get their points.
- K-Mart has done better than Deng at PER, but Deng has done better at thinks like winshares. Very similar in terms of usage… they’re scorers. Neither is a guy you want the ball in his hands much.
- Both have been injury prone. K-Mart’s hardly played this year. VDN’s offensive “system” is an absolute disaster for Deng… you couldn’t pick something worse if you tried.
So what have you that’s pro K-Mart?
- Shooting is a rarer skill.
- He’s not a current Chicago Bulls
What do you have that’s pro Deng?
- Same contract but with $20M deferred payments to make it easy for a low cash flow (or any) team to take him and to significantly lower the NPV of his deal.
- 2 years younger
- More winning experience and a bigger role on those winning teams.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 5, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd also argue Deng's got a track record as a better defender
I used to not think much of Deng’s defense until I witnessed the defensive stylings of Thabo Sefolosha over the past couple weeks. Deng deserves more credit than he was getting.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 5, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, when you factor in defense Deng comes closer
I’d say it’s close. But there’s the intrinsic value of ‘your guy’, even if your team sucks like the Kings’ team does. Martin’s theirs, and one of the few bright spots. Why deal him for merely a chance at an upgrade. I’d think it’d have to be definite.
That and the mentioned value of being a scorer, which applies everywhere except to Ben Gordon.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree it's pretty unlikely the Kings deal him because he's their guy.
I thought you were saying K-Mart was demonstrably better as a player than Deng.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well, he has been the past season-plus
(unfortunately)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When did KEVIN Martin become K-Mart
instead of KENYON Martin?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 7, 2009 7:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wHEN
He became better than Kenyon Martin…..
I’ve been hearing Kevin Martin’s K-Mart talk the last 2 years….
Frankly given the decline of KMARTs (where are they?) I don’t know why he’d want to take the nickname….
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 8:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The 'Came Apart" derogatory variation of K-Mart
would fit Kenyon Martin with his injury history.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 7, 2009 7:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
meh its irrelevant
the real issue is your trying to get them to take Gordon(who wants a big deal) and Noc(who is over paid 5+ million a year for 5 years – while all ready adding Deng @ SF) for Brad Miller
by reprisal on Jan 5, 2009 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
K-Mart?
Are we talking about Kevin Martin of the Kings or Kenyon Martin of the Nuggets?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 5, 2009 10:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Kings hired Deng's agent Jason Levien
A few weeks later Theus and Person are in the unemployment line. It was very public at the end of last season how much Martin was at odds with his coach.
The Kings are going to be in the market for a head coach this Summer. Factor in Deng’s questions about the Bulls offense and how he fits with the now permanent forward looking Rose model and does it become more possible that Deng moves to Sacramento where he’ll have the ear to perhaps pick the coach to get him to where he’s capable of being.
That’s all spec. But realistically, where are the Kings going to go in the next 3-4 seasons? Next year’s draft probably doesn’t supply many answers. Maybe we package some parts that they want where in return we get some parts that we want and their draft selection in 09.
This is just pure spec fun since Gordon cannot be traded. I’d just like to get Martin in return. Could he play SF?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 6, 2009 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If I were gonna trade Deng to the Kings
I’d start by wanting Hawes in return. But I don’t know that an obvious deal is there to be had.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yEAH
kEVIN Martin is the King’s brightest spot for the future, he’s not moving. THat’s like a Kings fan saying: let’s trade Brad Miller and Francisco Garcia and some other pieces for Derrick Rose…..not happening.
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon and Deng in
Martin and Miller out.
You’re not getting back “Francisco Garcia’s”. You’re getting mid to high level talent.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 6, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Still I don't see it....
But it would be nice if it happened….
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Martin is a better version of Gordon
and he’s a known commodity to the Kings. It’s more like being offered Josh Howard and Jason Terry for DRose and Drew Gooden. Do you make that deal?
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If it were
Dirk and Josh Howard….hmm….maybe.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Although I love Rose
And know he’ll be great. We’d really have a chance and be ridiculous with Dirk, Howard, Deng, Kirk, Ben, Noah/Tyrus/Gooden, Thabo even….
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wow
that’s the ultimate kirk-at-the-expense-of-team idea.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No
It’s a Dirk in favor of Rose because Dirk’s already there as an elite player/superstar future hall of famer who just so happens to fit a need that we’ve lacked since oh maybe really Horace left (Rodman was just a rebounded/defender)…..Dirk’s the real deal.
And I’d take a
Hinrich/Sefalosha
Gordon/Sefalosha
Howard/Deng
Dirk/Thomas
Noah/Gray
lineup any day over a
Rose
BG
Deng
middling THomas/Nocioni/Gooden
Aaron Gray/Noah lineup….especially with Paxson’s avg drafting expertise sans lucking out to the #1 overall pick.
It might be 2-3 years before Rose is anything and in the meantime I’d sacrifice him for a title….which I think Dirk definately would bring.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rose is already something
Dirk only has a few years left.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rose
is becoming something,
Dirk is something and he’s also something in an area that is our big weakness.
I want Rose on our team, I do, I like him, he’s a great great player, but if we have Rose on our team and continue to surround him with Crap while Pax does little….then let him go and let’s turn the crap into the good with the 1 piece we need (namely a top 1-3 PF in Dirk Nowitzki)….
That’s all.
My preference……to do the grand window to luol let the whole team but Rose go and rebuild….but with contracts to a lot of guards and everyone holding onto the few solid big men in the game, it’s so much harder to get that big man piece than it is another guard.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't being clear
I in now way whatsoever view Kirk in the same league as Derrick Rose, he isn’t now and never will be. Kirk might be just as good at the X’s and O’s at present to the rookie Derrick, but that might not be the case even come March, and that still presumes that this is the Kirk we saw prior to last year…..
But again, guards are easier to come by and much as they want to put the “now guards lead the league” spin on everything, it’s really and truly big men that have and always will lead teams to championships, unless the rare exception Michael Jordan or Dwyane Wade come along (Lebron’s as big as Karl Malone, and as athletic as MJ so he is excluded here on purpose because he can be an elite PF with a PG type skills in this league).
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
now means no.....
I in [no] way, not now way….
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Your saying you'd trade Rose?
Rose has what at least 12-16 years that he can play NBA basketball. His quickness and strength are very rare.
Its worse than the Mavericks deal to try and get Jason Kidd. And if we can make a deal for dirk or some big body why not try to while keeping Rose.
by Camry on Jan 6, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
Definately not my ideal plan…..
But unfortunately an out to nab a superstar to help this win now, and garbage when Rose is truly the league’s best PG later…team.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
players I'd deal Rose for
LeBron
Chris Paul
Dwight Howard
I think that’s it.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Me
D. Wade (how could you put LBJ and Paul and not Mr. Finals MVP himself)…..doing it with a far worse talentwise roster than my Bulls, especially with Marion not the old all star Marion.
D. Howard (no question as he might become the best in the league pretty damn soon given his strength, athleticism, and position).
Lebron.
Chris Paul.
And a guy like Dirk and Josh Howard tandem for Rose and removal of unfortunate contract like Noc….
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oh!
given how he’s played this season, Wade is on my list too.
The point remains we should’ve all learned by now that a ‘package’ of players isn’t as good as one spectacular player.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unless that package
Includes 1 superstar MVP and another all star :)…
Not middling crap (Gooden) and a career underachiever (Hughes)….though we dealt far worse to them….even with the unfortunate loss of Joe Smith.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
if the superstarMVP is 30 and the all star is 28
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 4:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jordan
Was what 36-37 in 1998?
Dirk’s one helluva shooter who even when he decline’s will still be more than efficient on both ends because of his length and shooting ability for his height.
He too should give 4-5 more good to great years and isn’t quite the 1 trick pony that was Ben Wallace (and Wallace was never really in the Dirk league anyway).
Howard’s 28, but when did that become old? When the high schoolers came in…..
Boston’s doing it all with the mid 30’s guys (31-33)….Bulls could do the same and still have the better youth to Boston to hopefully not drop as fast as Boston will once their big 3 fall apart.
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 8:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
::throws up hands::
Jordan? really?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 7, 2009 9:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Never said
Dirk was MJ. But Dirk is one helluva shooter and is a top 5-10 player…..and is only 30 and given his skill set will and should have at least 4 if not 6 more solid years (he’s fit, hasn’t been too bothered by injuries ever, can shoot anywhere on the court, is really tall, plays a bit like a 2 guard, but gets fouls called on him, can drive and score at the rim (but doesn’t as much as he should)….
And that shooting will keep him solid even when/if his athleticism wanes in the mid 30’s.
Even still we only need a Dirk for 3-4 yrs, 5 max anyway…..and we’ll likely have a dynasty with all Pax’s nice #2/#3 options next to him.
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
IMO
passing on Bosh or Amare for Rose is blatant homerism.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
of course it is, CJ...
but to answer: no, no, no.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ming may never play a full regular season and
playoffs again, as his legs are too fragile due to his size.
Amare still does not know how to play defense.
Bosh is showing in Toronto he needs good pieces around him. Bosh AND Rose is what the Bulls need.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 7, 2009 7:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Amare and Bosh
are so much better than Rose right now it’s not fair. You must be sure Rose is going to be in the Paul/Howard/Lebron club. Because if you aren’t sure, than you HAVE to take the sure big. I can’t imagine why you wouldn’t from a pure basketball sense.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 7, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no you don't
because Rose is still on his rookie deal for 4 years.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 7, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I did say the phrase
“pure basketball sense”.
Finances shouldn’t be much of an issue anyways dealing with great players. I’ll take the sure thing now rather than hope nothing bad happens in the developing one.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 7, 2009 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well in a taxy taxy world
having a superstar on a rookie deal is more valuable than one on a max deal
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 7, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Except that Rose isn't a superstar yet
Bosh and Amare are superstars right now.
You’re assuming it’s a guarantee Rose will be one. I don’t see that potential is worth saving 10mm a year for a few years. You’ll be paying Rose eventually more on the back end as his career,which will go on longer than Amare or Boshs.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 7, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rose will be in that tier
and if not, it’s worth the chance. You get 12 years of Rose and 6 from those guys.
I do not put Amare and Bosh into the same tier as LeBron/Howard/Wade/Paul
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 7, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree the tiers are separate
but you are putting some lofty odds on Rose. You wouldn’t trade him for either of 2 top 10 players yet to enter their prime. Suns and Rap fans would laugh at the possible exchange, and I wouldn’t blame them. Rose hopes to get there one day, he iss miles away still.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 7, 2009 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unless
You win a title with said superstar on a max deal while you have the supporting cast in tow and lose the supporting cast once the budding superstar on a rookie deal truly hits superstardom (year 3 likely).
Rose is damn good though….I hope it happens earlier.
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 4:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
With his health concerns, Ming is far
from a sure thing. I would not be surprised to see his career over in a year or two (e.g. Ralph Samson).
Amare is getting to the point where what you see is what you get, and defense is lacking – there could be some hope with the right coaching (e.g. Ray Allen playing defense for gang green).
Where is Toronto with Bosh? While I would love to have Bosh on the Bulls, he needs a complementary superstar on the wing/perimeter for his team to be championship caliber.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 7, 2009 7:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I basically agree
but it’s at least something to think about. I would say no in the end. Only because if Houston was offering it, that means they too agree his injury problems are an issue. And being that big probably shortens your career so he’s older than his numbered age.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 7, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think so
Ming’s too slow for our speedier guards….and our PF’s/SF’s/SG ain’t as good defensively as Battier/Scola/Artest and when he wants to be Tmac in flashes (healthy TMAC), but we dont’ even have to count on him.
With Ming, we get a great C, but have to rebuild everywhere. And while Ming’s good, he’s not the 2nd coming of Shaq, he’s a good, classic C in a PF/SF/G world (modern NBA).
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 4:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'd do it for Wade after seeing him healthy again.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would veto the Chris Paul idea.
He is great now, but so small he will not be nearly as effective once he loses a step. Rose is big enough he can play a Billups type game into his mid to late 30’s.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 7, 2009 7:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's ridiculous
Paul is what 23? He shouldn’t lose a step for 5-6 years and even then shouldn’t be ineffective until his mid 30’s.
Look at Nash, he took over in his 30’s and was smaller and less athletic (though just as quick) as Paul….and Paul’s already out Nashing Nash at 22?/23?
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 8:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When is he losing a step?
8 years from now. You’re crazy.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 7, 2009 1:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would trade this whole team for Chris Paul right now
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 7, 2009 6:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
haha...agreed
same for howard/lebron. if it weren’t for that damn salary cap!
by CJ Bulls on Jan 7, 2009 7:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's possible Gordon could wave his NTC
If he really wants out of Chi, I’d think his best way of landing a (real) big deal from someone else would be shining on a contender – ideally one that might be interested in resigning him after this year.
by reprisal on Jan 5, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can't imagine why he would want out of Chicago.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 5, 2009 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sarcasm?
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 5, 2009 4:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 5, 2009 4:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
damn
missed mine?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 5, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or was yours like double ironic sarcasm?
i took it too far.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 5, 2009 5:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon is getting 36.6 minute/game playing time,
which he is unlikely to exceed elsewhere. Unless it were a decent shot at getting a ring (Lakers, celtics, maybe Cavs or Spurs), why would he not wait until the end of the season where he will have multiple options (re-sign with the Bulls, sign and trade, sign free agent contract with another team)?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 5, 2009 10:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it was taken too far.
My baaaaaaaaad.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 6, 2009 8:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why though?
Sacrificing your Bird rights is a huge gamble. You’d have to play yet another season for a very average salary and then at least one more season at the same salary to place your Bird rights with a new team.
I can’t even think of the last player to abandon their Bird Rights. I don’t even know if there has been a player coming off the new rookie CBA salary scale that has abandoned their Bird Rights.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 6, 2009 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Radmanovic did it
but he wasn’t more than a mid-level player anyway
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, Deng will not be at all like Hughes or Wallace.
Deng may prove to lack the “dog” or the durability to be worth his contract, but he will not work to undermine the coaching staff or team.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 5, 2009 10:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Raptors are supposedly interested in trading Jermaine O'Neal.
How’s about Hughes, Noc and Gooden for O’Neal, Parker and Graham. That should keep both teams just South of the luxury tax and satisfy everyone’s needs. And we unload Noc in the process. Score!
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 5, 2009 8:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
worst case scenario
we get absolutely nothing from JO except $23mil for a certain other Raptor in 2010 and no Noc….
by reprisal on Jan 5, 2009 8:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think
We’d have to add a few picks to this, not because any of the Raps are all that great, but because the big expire in 2010. Jermaine though can be good and might actually help us out quite a bit….. I’d be for it, this team doesn’t need to get any younger….
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 8:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
They’d have to think that Nocioni is a big enough upgrade to take the downgrade of O’Neal to Gooden. I think they like that expiring contract as much as anyone. If, by some miracle, they could actually convince someone to go to Toronto, they better have the cap-space to do it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 6, 2009 8:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OH MY GOD
Derrick Rose is 20 years old. OF COURSE THIS TEAM MUST GET YOUNGER!!!!!!!
There’s no future in a trade for O’Neal whatsoever. But it would be a very good trade (losing the dead weight/cancers/chuckers), nevertheless.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jan 6, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the team doesn't really need to get younger
but it also doesn’t need a corpse like o’neal.
that said, there are worse trades out there.
by Jaina on Jan 6, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We're both right
if you think about it. They have to get younger and BETTER.
I happen to be in the un-vocal minority that has always felt this team could flirt with .500 IF the chuckers/cancers were dealt with D’Antoni-style, i.e.; who cares about the “vets”, or their feelings being hurt? Not that they necessarily WOULD play .500, but it WILL get worse with Gooden’s return. (unless he takes all Hughes minutes, LOL!) This team with Noc + Hughes + Gooden has NO CHANCE at .500.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jan 6, 2009 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am saying
We don’t need to get younger with the old man Hughes being a ripe 29…..and we could have the $21M O’Neal off the books allowing us to get Chris Bosh or D. Wade to pair with ROse for our future…..
If that is possible, screw my Nowitzki comment above altogether….but as construed, i dont’t hink it’s possible :( cries.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True
But I guess he’s rather forgettable as is Rough em up Ruffin.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Old man Hunter:
One of this roster’s few positives.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jan 6, 2009 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
why?
he stinks too
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't have a problem with hunter
in spot minutes.
by Jaina on Jan 6, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hunter has a minimum contract.
If the reports are true, Hunter is more of an assistant coach for Rose, which is the opposite of a locker room cancer.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 7, 2009 7:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I never said
Hunter was a locker room cancer…..I had no thoughts of that sort.
He just isn’t in the grand picture and won’t get any burn at all once Hinrich’s back.
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 8:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Then cut him, save the cap space, and hire him as an assistant
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 7, 2009 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And I am saying
hang on to the picks, especially now! What if you don’t get the 2010 dream? What if Deng really doesn’t fit with Rose or is forever on DNP-injury? TT and Noah ARE busts (I’m beginning to think so of Jo). To make a CHAMPIONSHIP team is gonna take more than Rose + 2010 FA.
It’s time for Paxson to make some good moves, and to my mind including picks or the youth to dump the bad contracts/cancers/chuckers had better get you something in return, something more than a vet on the decline, no matter how great he used to be.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
by marionette on Jan 6, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why hang onto
likely 8-17 picks for the next two years (closer to 8 but possibly 18) when you could make a trade to get you O’Neal’s soon to expire deal, yielding $21M of funds for the big 2010 market.
Chicago’s not some small time Memphis or Milwaukee area….we’re big with a lot of marketing potential for the superstar.
Why draft an 8-17 when a superstar might just be available to pair with our 1 budding superstar, and who knows about T2 in 2 years.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm up for trading away picks
helps get under the tax too.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've studied up on it a bit, and trading picks sucks.
Picks are your only surefire way to lock in young talent for a while. With a bit of effort, the Bulls should be able to get far enough under the cap to do what they need to do without dumping picks.
Of course, if they pick Thabo Sefolosha instead of Ronnie Brewer with them, it won’t matter much.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 3:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's sort of my motivation
if a team would take Thabo instead of a pick, then great. I’ve yet to see why the Bulls should pay him ~$2.75m next year. He’s easily replaceable, and not the ‘replace Ben Gordon with Jason Kapono’ type of replaceable.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But...
I think you have to plan for success. If you conclude that you draft shitty, the answer isn’t to get rid of your picks, it’s to do a better job drafting.
And if you’re good with your draft picks, you end up with Brewer (or Balkman, Rondo, Boone, Millsap, Craig Smith) instead of Thabo, and you’ll be getting a player you couldn’t replace for $2.75M.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's true
but it’s not as much planning on good drafting as it’s planning on room for development. There’s already so many other players in need of time and attention, I wouldn’t mind including a pick if it made a deal happen. This isn’t even considering how shitty the Bulls are at fostering development, lets assume they are good at it and just insanely terrible drafters :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 4:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd still take the pick.
Two things:
1. Even on good teams, you have to plan for replacement of current guys. Or at least insure against it. You can also trade for Euros to bring over later, or trade current picks for future picks if you’re really overloaded
2. Even good drafters miss, so you can’t assume all your picks will turn out and create a minutes crunch. Those that do not, you can basically get rid of after two years (by not picking up their TO). The Bulls might have done well not to pick up Thabo’s option.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd take the pick too
but that means another team would want to trade for the pick.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 4:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't have to replace players.
Nocioni never got replaced, even with a $72 million man in the wings.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 6, 2009 4:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ooohh, snap!
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 6:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm in
Hughes and Noc gone in one deal? Don’t make me jealous.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 6, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's not like we're giving up anyone who's in our longterm plans (assuming we have one)
I’m all for that. Those three guys, we’re basically just waiting for their contracts to expire anyway. And we don’t need JO to be the all-star JO of years past. He just needs to be better than Jo-No and Gray.
by j_myx on Jan 7, 2009 1:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
After watching Hughes
and Nocioni last I imagine Pax is using his speed dial function today.
by sue369 on Jan 7, 2009 1:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I get that for Nocioni
Who played a terrible game on offense (but not too awful on D, yet the O was far worse that the D).
But Hughes was mostly effective yesterday, so that’s just a cheap shot based on rep. He was 4-10, with 3 TO’s but had 2 assists and a steal and 10 points……plus was +9. That’s not bad production at all from a 6th or 7th man….
He’s paid too much, but let’s not be hasty and trade him while his value is nipping on being worth more.
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 4:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
cheap shots on Hughes based on his rep
are strongly encouraged.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 7, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hughes will be missed from the Bulls like Quintin Dailey.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 7, 2009 8:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know who Quintin Dailey is,
so that’s definitely an understatement.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Jan 8, 2009 12:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
An underachieving guard that was one of the players Krause had to jettison to build
a decent team around Mike. Dailey was reportedly more interested in drugs than playing basketball.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 8, 2009 12:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd still
keep Hughes over our former guard who must be traded (Jalen Rose)….
Hughes aint’ worth the bad rap…..he didn’t fit in Cleveland and didn’t make friends under he who must not be mentioned but still is this year because he was our coach last year which was the most asinine thing that should have cost Pax his job considering he was Skiles’s pet assistent and didn’t do anything different than Skiles, just did everything worse, a lot worse and was already lost on the team when Skiles lost the team….
But Hughes this year’s been decent/solid, playing mostly a team oriented game. He’s complained about PT. but when he’s gotten the time he’s mostly proved he’s worthy of it.
by majoyenrac on Jan 8, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Come on
you should know by now that the thing with Larry is – he has the ability to pretty decent basketball, and he will often do it for periods of time(often in the 2nd quarter or so, for example). But on most nights if you give him enough minutes, he will play a god awful terrible stretch where he sabotages your team(usually in the 3rd or 4th quarter, or any other critical period of time). He has the ability, but he isnt actually capable of being a good basketball player…I guess he is mentoring Jo and T2 at that. Thats his contribution to the locker room, that and whining. Go Larry!
by reprisal on Jan 7, 2009 9:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There's a serious problem with accepting that we have 3 role players
That combine to make 30 million dollars.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 7, 2009 11:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My trade proposal
Larry Hughes to New Jersey for Bobby Simmons and Sean Williams. You can throw in Cedric Simmons and/or Michael Ruffin, too.
by benhertz on Jan 7, 2009 7:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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