The curse of being Mr. Optimistic
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 4, 2009 8:16 PM CST
296 comments
I'm guessing with a home loss (by 10!) to the Timberwolves, we can now accept that it isn't merely a product of the schedule, this Bulls team just isn't good.
And beyond not good when Gooden and Deng can't play. (Hinrich too, though I'd guess his minutes would come from Rose and Gordon as opposed to from Hughes...)
And it makes me angry. But not merely because of the results, but because this team is too talented to play like this. I predicted a 43 win season, and that was before seeing how incredible Derrick Rose would be as a rookie, making them seem to me more like an upper-40s win team.
And in the East, there's not much beyond the top-5 (Celtics, Cavs, Magic, Hawks, Pistons). And while getting a 6th, 7th, or 8th seed means a likely first-round destruction, it's not a meaningless goal.
Injuries have certainly made it tougher, but the Bulls are losing so many games, by so huge of a margin, supplemented by a constant sideshow of locker room strain...I'm not sure they can dig out of it.
But they'll certainly get better. They have to, right? I always figured there'd be some early strains, then a midseason trade to clear out the obvious roster imbalance, and that, coupled by a fairly soft end-of-season schedule, would provide plenty of wins and a playoff spot.
But that theory started with a trade...I almost figured it as entropy. It's going to happen because it has to. Hughes, Gooden, and Thabo would be the first to go, Nocioni and Kirk if possible, and Tyrus and Noah if necessary.
But injuries to some of those players haven't helped, and this Vinny Del Negro thing...quickly bordering on disaster. He was supposed to 'rebuild the Bulls spirit' (or something similar Pax said), not play the role of Skiles without the coaching talent. I underestimated the importance of coaching experience, not in X/Os (figured that'd be rough), but in handling an NBA locker room. It's tough, especially with guys playing for contracts, or playing for themselves (or both). Paxson needed to see how much of a powder keg this was going to be (before this trade...that's going to happen) and how Vinny needed to be a defuser, not a match. Getting a respected veteran who could contribute on the court (i.e., not the Michael Ruffin type) would've helped...but would such a guy buy into Vinny in the first place?
So as a result, I'm not sure a trade (though it still has to happen) can save this season's record. And even worse, not sure that there hasn't been too many guys already lost in the locker room for any new blood to matter. I suppose fixing some roster problems, and winning as a result, will help some of it. Simply getting Larry Hughes completely away (don't doubt that Vinny was rolled over by him and others noticed) could likely do wonders.
Because honestly: Rose is tremendous, Gordon's playing some of the best ball of his career, Tyrus has had a very solid December (even when not getting his minutes jerked around for 'matchups'), Noah's actually doing better this season than last (when he was that crappy team's MVP)...get Deng back (and involved), make a trade for any vet big man who can clog the lane and hit a jumper (hell, I'd settle for either of those things), and trade away (or at the least, de-emphasize) the nonessential and mostly harmful contributions of Hughes, Nocioni, etc...and this team is pretty good.
Unfortunately it may be to the point where Vinny doesn't have the respect (a bit much to ask for him to have the skills...you mean a defensive nightmare lineup of Rose/Gordon/Hughes/Noc/Gray isn't going to get it done in the 4th?) to get a pretty good team to play like it. Right now it's a below average team playing completely terrible.
But again, it starts with a trade. Now-ish.
And unlike some fans, I'm not upset at this team because they can't play, I'm upset because they can.
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That *is* optimistic
Also a complete mis-read of this craptastic team…it’s going to get a lot worse (and need to get a lot worse) before it can swing back….I can’t think of a single positive with this team right now, including what is happening to Rose who is learning bad-NBA-basketball, a habit that can be very difficult to break even for talented players….Paxson is so afraid of losing face/power he’s let this thing get off the rails for two years now under weak coaches and a collection of “talent” that needs to be culled and then directed by someone who has a clue (D’Antoni?…nah, too threatening; what a joke.)…..I am a huge, long-time Bulls fan. But I hate this team. Makes me want to puke.
by RichKarp on Jan 4, 2009 8:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
i agree..
Watching them play is like eating rocks.
You can swallow it, but you can’t digest it, unless you’re a duck. Me too, I expected this team to become better not just because of the addition of Rose but also with everything being taken care of(contracts..etc.), contrary to last year.
But it all comes down to NOW.
What can I say?
I blame the organization, the coaches, the players..why?
Organization – they don’t know what they’re doing.
Coaches – they DON’T KNOW what THEY’RE DOING.
Players – THEY DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY’RE DOING.
I’m so angry that even in my dreams, I see Aaron Gray showing his arm pits.
It’s like there’s no difference between VDN and Benny the Bull coaching this team anymore. I
by Aiafati on Jan 4, 2009 8:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
eatting rocks with glass.
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 4, 2009 8:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It starts with the Coach.
It’s the coaching that is holding this team back. Looking back I think Doug Collins may have been a better choice. I think Doug thought highly of Thomas, Noah and Sefolosha. I would have to believe he would have played them more than Vinny is now.
Gray and Hughes getting this much burn is beyond me.
Maybe Paxson knew he would be firing the next coach in 2 years anyways so I guess Vinny would be the fall guy.
Yeah a trade would be nice for a few weeks but I doubt you get anything that helps you out. I hope I’m wrong and Paxson can pull something out of his butt like the Lakers and Celtics did last season.
But I would be happy with a Larry Hughes deal he is this seasons Ben Wallace.
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 4, 2009 8:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Dumping Hughes should be Paxson's first priority,
and if no trade emerges, consider sending him home with pay.
But I would be happy with a Larry Hughes deal he is this seasons Ben Wallace.
When you trade crap, you usually get crap back.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 4, 2009 9:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yup....
I still think the Bulls got the better of that deal by far.
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 4, 2009 9:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Watch what happens to big ben
come playoff time. When good teams box you out and leave you open for J’s. Or make you shoot free throws.
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 4, 2009 9:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"...this team is too talented to play like this".
Hmm. Unfortunately, that is a sentence that Paxson has been muttering for far too many years now. I’ve struggled to come up with a franchise that has overvalued its talent more than the Bulls. They’ve done an admirable job of assembling a “deep” roster full of 3rd options on most teams (ex-the future Derrick Rose of course).
I too wait patiently for a trade, but who on the Bulls makes another GM excited? Our opportunity to make a splash with a trade was 2 years ago when the perception of our talent was high and we possessed a tradable contract.
Do I hear Taps in the background?
by EdNealy on Jan 4, 2009 8:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
don't you dare to talk about Derrick Rose in that way!
by FAN of the BULLS on Jan 4, 2009 8:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think ex means 'excluding' and not 'example'...but I'm not sure...
Asked what kind of player he expects to be in the next five years, he said: "Not a star, but like, a superstar. Something around, like, Chris Paul, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, something like that."
by BigBenign on Jan 4, 2009 8:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You need a desperate team( like the Bulls)
who need to revive some optimism. I’m sure Pax is on the phone with that team right now. Remember when he said he was close like 2 months ago? That was kinda funny.
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 4, 2009 8:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
all right on target ...
I hope Bulls get some muscle back from trades, similar to a former bull with your namesake…
man up!
by exult463 on Jan 4, 2009 9:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Things I'd like to see in the next couple hours
- Bob Ociepka, head coach
- Larry Hughes traded damn near anywhere
- Some sort of valid big man coming back this way
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 4, 2009 8:52 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
seems simple and a low bar
but I really think such minor steps would do a lot.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 4, 2009 8:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. You hit the nail on the head
If the second and third things had been done in dilligent fashion, the first might not be necessary.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 4, 2009 9:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yes the first is too drastic and an admission of PaxsDorf as idiots
but maybe one of the assistant coaches can be replaced with one who is “entrusted” to give VDN direction. If VDN doesn’t like it, he’ll walk on his own or learn from the process
man up!
by exult463 on Jan 4, 2009 9:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to see this in the next couple hours
- Aaron Gray having Dwight Howard’s body
- VDN coming out of retirement to play with the Bulls
- Thabo growing some dragon wings
- Ben Gordon growing 5 miles higher
- Five Derrick Rose( in different heights of course)
- Kirk morphing with Gooden
by Aiafati on Jan 4, 2009 8:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, i'm with you on the other ones, but that one went over my head
by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 4, 2009 9:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Then when people are trying to strip the ball from him,
HE CAN BREATHE FIRE.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Jan 4, 2009 10:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk's haircut (the old one) + Gooden's beard
yikes.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 4, 2009 9:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
soooo tempting to photoshop a picture of this
Suit up the MJ Statue! It should be able to give us the interior defense we've been lacking! Get on it Pax!
by chibullsfan03 on Jan 5, 2009 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
'next couple hours'
I’m not sure this has any true causal relationship, but the fact that the Bulls only have 3 games all week (including a break between Tuesday and Friday) against weak teams at home…isn’t that conducive to implementing some kind of big shakeup?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 4, 2009 9:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
should be
but meh, remember that it’s a process…everything else with this org has bad timing, why should this be any different?
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
by NormVanBeer on Jan 4, 2009 9:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention less than 48 hours til
Brad Miller has a career night against us to kick it off…
by reprisal on Jan 4, 2009 10:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I highly doubt Vinny is going anywhere, unfortunately
Once a GM fires his second coach, he’s the one that goes on the hot seat. And firing a rookie coach this early would basically be an admission to the world that he made a terrible mistake.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jan 5, 2009 2:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe Pax's supreme everlasting job security actually works in our favor then
I really don’t think he’s ever on the hot seat.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 8:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The mistake wasn't hiring VDN
The mistakes were in failing to make moves when the roster was begging for it to happen.
Look at the Knicks. Walsh has made all these moves leaving D’Antoni a miniscule roster, but that is precisely the strategy a major market team can and should work with a new coach and a new direction.
Derrick Rose is our new direction. We are all waiting for Paxson to catch up.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Can we find some minor league Russian team based in Siberia
who will take Hughes?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 4, 2009 9:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Washington and Toronto played so much better today than we are playing.
I watched them beat Orlando and Cleveland. We could not compete with either one today. The Knicks beat the Celtics. We may be competing with the Thunder for the worst team in the NBA. I still think Matt’s post is a grreat attempt to make me feel better and deserves a rec.
by chgobr on Jan 4, 2009 8:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Thunder
are currently playing better than us. They’ve lost a lot of close games.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Jan 4, 2009 10:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If they lose to the Thundercats,
they should be made to wear uniforms that say “Chicago Steers” for the rest of the season.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 4, 2009 11:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do the Thundercats
suit up Lion-O? They’d destroy us if they could get Cheetara on their bench.
Is Mum-ra a free agent? We might need him.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 9:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
They really should have been named the Thunder Cats…..
Thunder Cats hooo
Schnarf Schnarf (god I hated that pet cat thing).
Mum-Ra was awesome, and I’m sure he’d control the paint better than _rew….but where’s the offense?
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Washington, Toronto AND the Knicks
last night beat Cleveland, Orlando and the Celtics. No chance Bulls beat any of those teams right now, making high lottery likely over 82 games…..at least it’s another asset, not that JohnnyP knows what to do with assets other than compile them.
by RichKarp on Jan 5, 2009 7:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When there was Rick Carlisle, Avery Johnson, Mike D'Antoni, and even the shitty Doug Collins
Also assistants like Tyrone Corbin and Jeff Hornaceck out there all prime for a job in Chicago, Paxson settled on Del Negro because apparently he was a good communicator, came from an organization that everyone respects, and as a director of player personnel it appeared he would figure out how to communicate with players. The tactical areas were supposed to be assisted by Harris and Bickerstaff.
In reality who knows what they actually do besides take money from Reinsdorf. Del Negro is obviously a poor communicator, or at least cannot command respect from a team of youngsters. No one on this team seems to listen to him (maybe Rose does).
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 4, 2009 8:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
He's a terrific communicator
Like telling players not to eat in the locker rooms before games, it’s an important aspect to coaching!
by FAN of the BULLS on Jan 4, 2009 8:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If that's a rule, that's a rule
There’s no issues with that. VDN’s fine was to show these 3 guys who have a bad history of discipline on and off the court who’s in charge. I applaud that fine.
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
don't think it worked
I won’t pretend to know how to handle an NBA locker room, but I’d think the best way to show you’re in charge is to perform like it, not enforce a previously unenforced rule to make a ‘statement’.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How do u know
it was previously unenforced? I mean Noah and Tyrus haven’t been off the court/locker room saints, and Larry Hughes has already twice complained about his role….seems like they were purposely challenging the coach to me…
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 9:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe you are right on track.
“The tactical areas were supposed to be assisted by Harris and Bickerstaff”
I believe Paxsdorf hires guys and gives them broad statements like the above statement with very little specifics, and no real accountablitiy.
At season end, Paxson conducts exits, and asked the coaches "Why didn’t tyrus and noah and thabo develop. This guys say ‘they have attitudes and didn’t listen during the extra practice sessions I (we) arranged with them.
Paxson, then accepts this and is disappointed with individual players during their exit interviews because their development was not on par.
It seems, Paxson is missing the most important point: Bennie and Del can’t really teach big men the art of the game from the Big Man perspective. Theses guys are head coaches, communicators, not foot soldier teachers. Imagine last year Boylan was the Big Man coach before Mike Brown arrive!. What a joke! Ron Adams teaching footwork against the Shaqs, Duncans, Garnetts, etc.
I believe something is wrong here!
man up!
by exult463 on Jan 4, 2009 9:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure
all of them sans D’Antoni would have had the same issues that Vinny’s having now. D’Antoni is a basketball scientist like Nelson and knows ways to maximize mish mashed components…..I don’t think hiring a Collins esque guy who focuses on the tough coaching style like Skiles would work since this team zoned out on the better Skiles coach….
Again with mismatched rosters, roles become an issue and it’s easy for guys to in fight, especially when the mismatched roster shows it’s unbalancing….
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 9:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The thing about D'Antoni.
He doesn’t care if his players are unhappy with minutes. He plays the guys he likes and everyone can just sit…I wonder who his chosen 8 would have been here?
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 5, 2009 10:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
whoever he chose
at least I’d trust it. (at least, more than I would with Vinny)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I bet it would be
Rose-Gordon-Deng-Tyrus-Noah to start with Hughes-Hinrich-Gooden off the bench (Thabo in the Raja Bell light role)….
Nocioni (who I like, but did admittedly play like crap early this year) wouldn’t sniff the court because he’s not quick enough or versatile enough for D’Antoni (though who knows he can shoot a bit)…..Gray’s too slow and would only see garbage time. Hughes gets the nod over Noc because Hughes is quick, athletic, and while he gets out of the offense at times, that’s what D’Antoni preaches…
I would like this team a bit mroe even if the record isn’t what ours is because we can fully see what Tyrus and Noah bring to the table.
D’Antoni would likely be leading a trade Hinrich away mantra because Hinrich is good but is not the best future PG of the team, and Kirk’s more a standard offense player rather than an athletic/quick firepower that Rose has….
Really that’s one thing that pisses me off a bit….Kirk does what he can for the org, and is replaced likely for crap (he’ll be gone I bet) because of it.
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he probably owuld have kept everyone.
Hinrich would be averaging 15ppg.
Thomas would be at 15 and 10 and if D’Antoni didn’t believe in him, he’d pump his numbers to trade him.
Same with Noah.
And Hughes and Nocioni.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 5, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It might be a stretch to assume Bulls would all have significantly better stats under D'Antoni
D’antoni’s offense requires lot of quick shots/3s. It would seem to be a good fit for Rose and Gordon, but Noc really struggled shooting early on in the season. I could see Gooden and Noah doing pretty well.
Hughes and TT seem like classic players who like to play in uptempo systems, but are better fits for a slower pace where they are restricted from taking “bad shots”. If you think they launch too many jumpers now, imagine if D’Antoni let them run wild.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 5, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Hughes built for ANY system?
He cannot drive to the rim at all in traffic. His 40% career FG% isn’t a threat. The odds say make him drive, but you really don’t lose by forcing him to shoot it either.
Regardless of Larry’s moves, his offense is always going to be fail or fail harder.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Stackhouse for a time was a perfect 6th man in Dallas…..and his shooting woes are as bad as Hughes’s are.
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Stack could get to the line
I actually thought Larry Hughes could still get to the line. Not this season. You can see him trying to beg his way into 6 attempts per night. It’s embarrassing because he also takes 3 seconds to stand around and beg the refs with the opponent already changing ends for the easy bucket.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
though when engaged (and that’s not as often as it should be unfortunately) Larry’s a better defender, so they do balance out a bit. Jerry was better for a time, but it’s not that far off when you deduct the Lebron factor and injuries….
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich would be hurt
I doubt D’Antoni would pump Tyrus’s numbers to trade him, ideally he’d pump his numbers to keep him. Tyrus if he gets it would be an ideal D’Antoni player, a more athletic Marion with better pure D skills but not the 3pt shot.
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's why I said, "if [he] didn't believe in" Thomas.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 5, 2009 3:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I read in the suntimes the name Chris Wilcox
or Nick Collinson are they on the block or is John Jackson throwing names out there just to get a read?
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 4, 2009 9:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I am sure they are on the block?
Along with everyone else on the Thunder not named Green, Westbrook or Durant…
They kind of suck though…like everyone else on the Thunder.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 5, 2009 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like he got that watch out of a cereal box
And D’Antoni is a scary guy
by Camry on Jan 4, 2009 9:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
nope! the right guy rejected working for this circus organization.. rightfully so
the kid watch comment is funny!
man up!
by exult463 on Jan 4, 2009 10:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I do agree on the underachieving bit
Thats another reason why I wasn’t amazingly upset those losing season. (except maybe the front office)
But anyway I really wish he’d start going in the fourth with maybe Rose-Gordon-Thabo-Tyrus-Noah/Gray whoever at center. Thabo and Tyrus are helpful when it comes to making opportunities to run. I’m not sure what he wants he wants defense and fastbreak chances I thought he was saying earlier.
by Camry on Jan 4, 2009 9:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
this was a good one to read
ur right about not being mad about losing. but we should be mad cause they are so much better than what they’ve showed so far. i also agree with the reality that anyone should be traded (except derrick). we really need a change. pax needs to work with whatever hes got to pull out a decent trade. and if we cant get a big man that can at the very least rebound, then sign one of those old vets that can. something needs to be done now-ish indeed
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
by Yibs on Jan 4, 2009 9:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
nice sig
lol
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good to see Vinny isn't making excuses . . . oh wait, never mind
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/chi-05-bulls-chicagojan05,0,5867541.story
“We’re missing our three captains, so that doesn’t help, and three of our probably top six players are out, and we just played Orlando and Cleveland,” he said. "Those aren’t excuses, they’re just facts. We have the toughest schedule in the league to this date — that’s a fact.
Man, having to play the T-Wolves at home, what a tough schedule.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jan 4, 2009 11:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That quote makes me want to throw up
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Jan 4, 2009 11:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep. Vinnie needs to shut up and start updating his resume.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 4, 2009 11:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That Quote
Here is the problem with Vinny talking about the captains….. THERE HAS NOT BEEN LEADERSHIP ON THE BULLS SINCE GOD KNOWS WHEN…… probably not since Michael punched out Steve Kerr in practice, never apoligized, but then told him to get ready to take the winning shot of game 6.
If I am correct Kirk, Lou, and Drew are the captains of this ship lost at sea. Why would Vinny even bring up the fact that the team is missing leadership from Kirk and Lou ( players on last years team that quit in mid December and allowed players to tune out an interm coach while finishing 9th wost in the NBA.
Ohhhhh, but Drew Gooden has really motivated those at his position Noah and Ty to work hard. ( Both suspended last week, both benched for whole games this season because of lack of effort.)
There is no leader on this team. Derrick has talked about leading as a rookie or letting his play make up for lack of verbal motivation….. but that is the one thing I didn;t expect from him this year. His job is get better, control game, take important shots down the stretch, and eventually play defense.
My final point….. if anyone can think of a player in the leauge that could lead the mentally softest team in the NBA this year …. please tell me. Kobe would run back to the hills. He cursed out a Laker’s team with way more talent……. Lebron wouldn’t hint at going to NY if he was in this lockerroom, he’d already be renting……. maybe the NBA Saint of this decade Tim Duncan… but he too old to deal with that.
by Jscho316 on Jan 5, 2009 12:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Man you are so wrong!!!!
http://superpunch.blogspot.com/2007/10/video-michael-jordan-discusses-time-he.html
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Jan 5, 2009 1:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for that!
The video just about gave me chills!
WOW! Bulls players with PASSION about the game and winning!
Best part was, “Phil Jackson was never the coach of that team, Michael was. It was Jordan the players feared, not Jackson.”
Yeah, this current bunch needs to look up to the rafters of the UC every night.
It’s called C O M M I T M E N T !
That team had it, this team does not.
Even 2 years ago under Skiles, they had the effort most nights on defense. Skiles maximized the results with the group he had. VDN is actually NOT able to do this. WHY? Because the players don’t want to accept, follow, or listen to a guy who hasn’t ever coached at any level.
Oh, and he sucks as a coach too! :-) Seriously, VDN doesn’t even a feel for the basics, like time-outs, substitutions, and injuries aside, he hasn’t been able to even figure out who his starters are. I guess it is whomever may be giving the impression that they are actually listening to the guy on any given day.
I also don’t think it is a good idea to play a kid out of one year of college, a rookie, for 40+ mins a night. I love Rose’s game, but, all the talk of fatigue, etc., well, DUH, they play him 40 minutes a night in an NBA schedule.
That’s brutal for a 20 yr old kid used to an NCAA schedule. To his credit, he is handling it.
I know, I know, injuries, the schedule. PLAYERS make excuses, COACHES should not. They have to SEE and UNDERSTAND the problem(s), ADMIT mistakes, make adjustments, this includes at half-time Vinnie!!! and instill a system and process.
This team looks like first game, every night. To me, very little difference between what we saw under the interim Boylan Bulls play and what you see now. Again. the same issue, respect. They didn’t care about anything Boylan was saying, and it seems that VDN is getting much more respect.
Look, if you’re boss got fired and replaced by a guy with NO experience doing the job, what would your attitude toward that new boss be?
Get it?
I knew that they’d tune VDN out, I just thought it would take 3/4 of a season to happen. So, I was wrong, it only took 34 games for them to tune him out.
The other night in the MN game, he had a huddle, and players were checking out what was going on during the break. You know, watching the LuvaBulls, staring into the crowd. Anywhere but VDN’s clipboard.
He was SOOOOOO wrong of a choice.
But, why the surprise? Most posters on this and other forums were puking when he was selected. No surprise.
VDN – The Sarah Palin of NBA head-coaches:
No real experience, and relies on his hair!
“Oh yeah, well I am fining you guys for eating in the locker room, so there!” -- VDN :-)
by rtblues on Jan 5, 2009 2:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Umm
Those 90s teams had the unstoppable force and the best player to ever to lace up a pair of Nikes. There isn’t a player in the league right now that could carry Jordan’s jock strap. Its completely unfair to compare this team what that team. Not to be forgotten they also had Pippin one of the top 50 and one of the best point forwards to ever play.
The talent level is not even there to make a valid argument. You put Jordan and Pippin next to Rose and you have an entirely different team.
This team in my opinion is flawed. There is close to no interior defense and nay someone who can score in the paint outside of Rose penetrating. They are not a great rebounding team either. A lot of this is a product of running out 3-4 guards every night and the ineffectiveness of any big playing competent defense.
One can reasonable expect the current roster to have its good nights but majority will be losing. Until we get some semblance of a front court its unreasonable to expect a .500+ team.
In either case the problem runs deeper than commitment.
"If you're not going to compete, then I'll dominate you." MJ
by Rankdog on Jan 5, 2009 2:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No more team captains
unless it’s Rose (and he’s ready).
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 9:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That I agree with
Hinrich I think is a captain worthy guy though, and I do think he’s done whatever the org asked him to do…..but Luol’s a nice guy without the backbone to be a leader.
Rose-Hinrich should at least be captains…..I wish Gordon had it in him too, and I think it’s that lack of motivation of teammates, that keeps Gordon in the tier of players he’s in. I mean GOrodn looks to always come ready to play, but it doesn’t seem he cares to motivate the rest of his team and that’s not just this year’s contract Gordon, that’s been his career.
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the whole
captain talk is basically meaningless… the players vote on the captains, meaning they choose who they want to be leading the team… and in their mind hinrich, deng, and gooden are it. my guess is rose will probably be voted to captain next season. they apparently get motivation from these guys that we don’t see. but i don’t really agree with saying “so and so should be a captain” cause well… it’s not like the coaching staff is making this designation, the players are.
by Jaina on Jan 5, 2009 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well it's hard
too because the three have been hurt, Kirk being the biggest. I do think Kirk is a bit of a leader on a rudderless ship, but team jealousies over what he got when Deng and Ben wanted it lead to last year….
Kirk seems to do what’s necessary on the court rather than do what’s in his best interests…..and that’s why he was partially awful last year (he was trying hard to cover for the lack of D of Gordon and Deng, who both oddly stopped playing D in the hopes of spicing up their O and neither of which succeeded on that front). Then Kirk got it going a bit, and it was “we need to feature Hughes a bit, both cuz Kirk’s a nice guy and maybe we can find a taker for Larry if he plays in our offense….too bad last year Larry was at his "un-legend” peak….and with the team in disarray again, perhaps he’ll be reverting back to that soon….
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
There as been a precipitous decline Kirks defense
And it wasn’t because he was trying to do to much. Its because refs are calling him for all the grabs he used to get away with and because of a decline in foot speed.
by silentpete on Jan 5, 2009 12:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
Kirk’s d looked damn good in the preseason and Orlando game this year before he got hurt.
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm hoping he
picks up where he left off before he got hurt. I think this team could use him right now.
by sue369 on Jan 5, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love it if you're right.
But I think his D went down the tubes immidiately after he grabbed and tweaked Wade’s wrist, and Riley whined about it to the press. Kirk hasn’t been able to get away with anything after that. He would pick up a ticky tack foul, get frustrated and get taken right out of his game.
Maybe he figured something out this offseason or the refs are starting to give him the benifit of the doubt. I honestly don’t know. I spent the preseason and early games watching Rose and Tyrus intently. I’m just spouting off what I remember from the past couple years.
by silentpete on Jan 5, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is the last thing I worry about with Hinrich
Defense is the one area that gets him going. He’s just like Tyrus. Make a play on defense and the offense will follow.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
recd
i dont think i need to explain myself….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Jan 5, 2009 7:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
back at you--a hinrich fan who might have to see him go
really as an aftershock of the Wallace signing bc we need 2 recover and kirk is a great nice 2 have behind rose on a contender but too high a luxury for a crappy team that likely can’t trade the byc Deng esp the Deng who’s been laying an egg and a cracked egg at that or Gordon with his bird rights nullifying his value…
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 9:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If hinrich is traded
i wont mind if it really helps the bulls (more than financially) and until i see those winning results ill probably be peaved at the organization. I want the bulls to win and if a trade involving hinrich puts them in that position, then they should of course do it. Things like trading hinrich to sign gordon, to me is a waste of time since it basically means we keep the same team we have right now. That is a move that would anger me. Hinrich for a brad miller seems like a similar move that would anger me, a slight upgrade up front and signing ben gordon? Yea, now were winning (sarcasm)! I haven seen kaman play at all this year, so i dont know how good he really is, 2k9 is generous to him though. A trade of kirk for kaman might actually be worth it, however i wont be happy until kaman proves he is worth it.
Thats pretty much my stance on trading hinrich. If it gives us a piece to the puzzle and makes us that much better, do it. If its just so a guy like gordon can get his 10 mil per year, then BOOOO! (read that as if a horde of angry sportsfans were screaming it)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Jan 5, 2009 9:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
looks like you need to add someone to your sig
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 11:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You Are Right!
Thanx Alot Bulls Blogger!!!!
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Jan 6, 2009 2:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't sound like
the Bulls are interested in Brad Miller. I have a feeling Kirk won’t be traded during the season.
by sue369 on Jan 6, 2009 6:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well either way
Im trying to get tickets to The Miami game on feb. 12. The deadline is on the 18th of feb. and i think that the last home game before the deadline. I want to go to that game because hinrich will be back by then, and if he is traded, well that might be his last home game as a bull. I hope he doesnt get traded, but just in case he does, id like to go to his last home game.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 6, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you should get tickets for his first game back
I expect a 30 minute video tribute, and perhaps lopping off the head of the MJ statue to put Hinirch’s head on it
(plaque: “3rd all-time in 3pters made”, “3-time team captain”, “all-defense 2nd team, 2007”, “invited to the olympic tryouts that one time”)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You Think theyd Do that!!
(begins the carlton dance)
actually i would love to get tickets to his first game back…which is….oh right no one knows….
also they play miami, and if nothing else kirks always done a good job of guarding wade (as a good a job as one can do) since my favorite part of kirks game is his defense, it would be awesome to watch him try to stop this revamped wade (albeit, no one can really stop this version of wade, but at least limit him).
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 6, 2009 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"invited to the olympic tryouts that one time"
lol…don’t forget, a banner raised that says “Mopey, #12”
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
by NormVanBeer on Jan 6, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfunny
It was funnier to take hinrichs mediocore accomplishments and list them, showing how not-special he is. Mopey 12 is going the other way with that joke. You killed it man…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 6, 2009 4:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I still say that the Rose/Gordon/Hinrich
backcourt would be the best three-guard rotation in the league, along with Detroit.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 6, 2009 4:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I dont think many would argue with that
Ive been protesting how having kirk coming off the bench would be perfect cuz of the kind of player he is. That combo guard thing would help tons, especially since unlike most combo guards hinrich is one that can actually guard both positions.
I think the biggest counter argument i get is salary figures (that and the notion that it can never be hinrich and gordon together with rose, one has to leave…because theyd be too good or everyone would be happy or something). I think the way i see it, get rid of hughes for an expiring, dont sign gooden, and trade noch for something smaller in worth, and you should have the money to sign gordon and keep hinrich…
…oh but wait, a guy cant be coming off the bench if he is getting paid $9.5 mil (and ever declining) money…(except we already have hughes and noch who are just as similarly paid).
…oh but hinrich has trade value….! Okay, its true, if we can get something special for hinrich, then it should be done. But once again, hinrich for expiring contracts is a waste….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 6, 2009 10:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rec to that....
But given our needs, I don’t think we can afford to keep it.
Sr. Mope, will be a nice value for his declining salary…..
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 4:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
meh
it worked just fine for me…sheesh, you Hinrich fans are touchy this week
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
by NormVanBeer on Jan 6, 2009 6:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
*rolls eyes*
although that was better :)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 6, 2009 10:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We have to wait for a game with Milwaukee, so Skiles can be
there at half-time when Hinrich gets his number retired.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 6, 2009 11:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
this is probably the biggest pile fantasy
i’ve heard from a kirk fan. I guess he was fouling so much last year to help the team too. kirk only want to help the team and do what is the team’s best interest? I guess dribbling around for 16 seconds is for the good of everyone. You are not a leader if no one follows.
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 6, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How will Kirk lead
When the guys were all in it for themselves (Ben and Luol) and didn’t want to play for the team, but wanted to play for their contract.
Kirk continually tried to overcompensate for their lack of rotation (Gordon’s wasn’t at the time something completely unexpected, but Luol’s lack of D early on was a complete shock).
Add to that the locker room strife, Ben Wallace’s burn out and refusal to play, and nobody could lead this team.
You can’t lead a team that doesn’t want to play, regardless if you’re Kirk or even Michael Jordan (and Kirk and MJ).
He dribbled around so much because nobody moved at all without the ball. We gradually became mroe and more and more complacent on offense as the Skiles tenure grew, and last year nobody moved without the ball (it’s what forced BG to be so ineffective last year as everyone got in a “watch Ben mode”.
Kirk played like crap last year, admittedly….but he’s proven better than he was last year, and even last year when BG and Deng were hurt, Kirk erupted, getting the freedom to play his game and getting the ability to play alongside 2 eager to play guys for the team in Sef and Noc…
Thankfully Deng and BG are back to their former selves (Deng’s not having a good year, but isn’t as me focused, and Ben saw this summer what his me-first tendencies of last year do to a guy who is as one-dimensional as he is.
Add Kirk to the fold would be great, a great tandem/trio with Rose and BG……
I just wish Tyrus and Noah would reach their potential already.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you are making stuff up with no proof
i.e “Kirk continually tried to overcompensate for their lack of rotation” and “When the guys were all in it for themselves (Ben and Luol) and didn’t want to play for the team, but wanted to play for their contract.”
In response to some of your other points – “He dribbled around so much because nobody moved at all without the ball.” – no he dribbled around because he was trying to emulate Steve Nash. Why else would reports surface that players actually preferred Duhon to be pg instead of Kirk?
“Kirk erupted, getting the freedom to play his game and getting the ability to play alongside 2 eager to play guys for the team in Sef and Noc…” – no Sefo and Noce can’t dribble, are mostly spot up shooters on offense and don’t want the ball. Ben wants the ball. Rose doesn’t seem to have a problem playing with Gordon and Deng even though Deng is playing worse than last year (according to you he is playing more a “team” game – ha!) and Gordon is in the exact same predictament.
Here is an idea – maybe, the guy is just a limited player. He was never all that great offensively to begin with.
“Add to that the locker room strife, Ben Wallace’s burn out and refusal to play, and nobody could lead this team.”
No, someone could lead this team. They just aren’t on the team. How good were the Celtics before KG stepped in? Hasn’t Wallace been on his best behavior since being with Lebron? And before you say Kirk isn’t on their level – well that’s point. He doesn’t command that kind of respect from his teammates so he isn’t an effective leader. Sure, Kirk could be a great leader when you find guys who all respect him and will allow him to “play his game.” But this is the NBA, so that isn’t going to happen. And I’ve never seen Kirk lead. Skiles use to complain about the lack of leadership on this team before last season. Its okay to be a fan of a player, and I guess you are free to make up your own scenarios to paint Kirk in the best light possible. Doesn’t make it true.
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 6, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody could
lead the team last year….not Scott Skiles, not Kirk, not when BG and Deng were in it for themselves and Ben Wallace sulked his way through 40 games….
After the trade Kirk erupted before sitting to feature Hughes.
Kirk’s not the Rose potential guy, but he’s hardly garbage. I mean he was the starting PG in the world championships for christsakes, and Pat Riley after the Hinrich-Wade wrist injury has said at least twice that he respects Kirk as a player….
And yes I don’t think Lebron could have lead a rudderless ship, unless it was Lebron in lieu of Deng (and Deng was gone)….
I guess we disagree.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If he doesn't command
respect from his teammates how is it that they have voted for him to be a captian of this team for what 3 – 4 years now? Obviously they see something in him you do not.
by sue369 on Jan 6, 2009 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's the thing.
i’m not a kirk lover, i’m not a ben lover. but people go on and on about the captains but the players themselves voted these captains. they must like kirk and luol, and value their leadership and stuff, but too bad it doesn’t seem to show up on the court.
by Jaina on Jan 6, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Kirk
was showing more leadership in the preseason games this season then he has before. Hopefully he’ll bring some leadership when he returns.
by sue369 on Jan 6, 2009 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no more mention of captains!
it’s a completely useless distinction on this team.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I though the completely useless distraction
was Noc arguing with the officials?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 6, 2009 11:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
are his teammates practicing hard because of Kirk?
do they play with intensity because of Kirk? Is there any leadership on the court when Kirk is out there? Does he communicate effectively with his teammates and gets them to achieve results? There are probably anywhere between 60 to 80 team captains in the NBA. Not all of those guys are leaders. The Bulls have to vote someone captain. I’m not talking about some guy with a title, I’m talking about actual leadership.
The entire time Skiles was here he said the team had no leadership. A direct shot at the so-called captains. Kirk may have the title captain. But the closest this team has to a leader is Rose.
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 6, 2009 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Like I said
they keep voting him a captain.We’ll see what happens when he comes back.
by sue369 on Jan 6, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yep
Kirk will take his magic captain pill and everything will go right when he returns! Prior to that, he’ll use the pin that was removed from his hand and poke BG in the eye with it, effectively ending Ben’s career and forever cementing his starting position on the team and his starting position in Reinsdorf’s heart.
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
by NormVanBeer on Jan 6, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's a blog
get over it…little miss Susie Sensitive
http://theSpiderWebSystem.com/ANT2501
by NormVanBeer on Jan 6, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
maturity is not a strong suit here.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I blame the lack of leadership
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 6, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
:-D
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought it was a lack of professionalism. ;)
Some of even eat while reading and posting.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 6, 2009 11:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he's just a nice guy?
Which, by all accounts he is. Gets along with everyone and has never in his Bulls career really ruffled feathers.
The captain distinction on this team is pointless. Our leaders don’t lead. Kirk is moreso just a stable personality on a team full of insecure guys. Deng…well we all know how assertive he is. There is no rah rah guy on this team other than Nocioni, and his leadership is like having Oprah telling you to lose weight.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 6, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A nice guy
that his teammates want as a captain on their team for several seasons. Works for me. :D
by sue369 on Jan 6, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
doesn't for me
since the locker room is a friggin mess under this leadership.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't blame anyone for lack of leadership
Simply because no one on this team is wired for it, except for Rose. Everyone else lacks “The Dog”.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 6, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't blame anyone either
but I also think it means nobody gets special consideration for their leadership
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Can an NBA club
bring Kirk Hinrich off the bench at around 10 mil per season?
The elephant in the room, now that we have Rose, is what role can we possibly create where Kirk Hinrich can deliver as much as he can deliver in the amount of minutes the Bulls can afford to play him?
I think it would nice if BAB had a fanpost with something along the lines of “The Case for Keeping Kirk Hinrich”. I do think that seeing Vinny completely hose this season with his methods is making me rethink the situation with Hinrich.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 6, 2009 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk
Doesn’t have to come off the bench for at least half the team’s out there (probably more than that, but few are ready to admit it)….
Can the Bulls keep him for $10M off the bench? Not unless Tyrus and Noah pull it together—whcih looks less likely by the day….unfortunately.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it has nothing to do with Noah and Tyrus
everything to do with Derrick Rose, and Hinrich’s own limitations.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's ridiculous
If Thomas and Noah were at their potential, we wouldn’t need to make a single change as we’d have one of the best guard rotations in the league with Rose-Kirk-Ben able to split the 96 minutes pretty equally….and Deng/Noc would be an adequate 3 (maybe a spell here and there of Thabo for burn when Noc hits a slump) and Thomas/Gooden and Noah (35MPG) and Gray would be awesome…
Why would you want to trade Kirk away then? We have no inside help, that is this team’s entire limitation. Is and has been.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the only way this make sense
is if they’re so good that Reinsdorf is willing to pay the luxury tax.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And I bet
If Tyrus and Noah flipped the switch as their extensions were going, Reinsdorf would…..he jsut won’t if the team is a middling piece of shite like they have been.
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
there's a thread for you somewhere.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"few are ready to admit it"
There’s a anti-Kirk Hinrich conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 6, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Few are ready to admit it
Because team’s “ahem Mavs” have so much $$ and future in Kidd….
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's more like a fanshot
“keep Kirk because I like him”
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well it is frustrating
dropping a player with talent who contributes while other players (ahem, Tyrus, ahem Larry) drag the team down. But I guess that’s the NBA. His salary is just too much for the limited minutes available behind Gordon and Rose.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can only assume this is the kind of brilliance
I’ve ignored to let fester in this thread.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I know you hate any dissenting opinion.
Rather than face facts, you prefer to pretend like it isn’t there. You are a Tyrus enabler.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't really like reading your 'work'
disproportionate tone considering their actual insight.
Luckily the fanposts have bylines.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well considering you pass over the work
it’s pretty hard for you to judge. Kind of how you overlook statistics when it doesn’t fit your plan. How you use it to support BG, then turn around and ignore it when it supports Gray. Or refuse to acknowledge Tyrus isn’t making progress despite all the evidence. Whatever’s convenient I guess.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
CJ
Did I miss something? I always seem to see yfbb a huge Tyrus supporter???
Maybe I missed a change?
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no no no, you have it all wrong
it’s your work. I ignore statistics you provide, and mock you if you don’t fit my plan.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
though I admit I'm competely unfair to Gray
and don’t care.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't care that the Bulls
have found the long sought after replacement for Will Perdue?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 6, 2009 11:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gray
Wishes he could be Will Perdue….and that’s sad.
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 4:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If we could trade Gray for a PF who
defends, passes and rebounds like Rodman, I would be happy.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 7, 2009 6:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
But who’s going to do that?
Nobody. Gray has no value and he’s hurting our team.
I like his hustle, and he seems to be a nice guy, but saying let’s trade Gray for a guy who defends, passes and rebounds is crazy. Gray does little but try really hard….he just doesn’t have it.
He’ll be a Simmons in a trade if we make a trade……he won’t get any burn on his new team, and I don’t understand his PT right now.
I want him to do better, and hoped the weight loss would lead to something because of those O post skills, but he’s not faster than before and is not athletic enough and doesn’t have the upside.
To me I see a burgeoning guy who can defend, pass and rebound in Noah, and Noah just needs to get stronger…..and get the much needed PT. We’re not going anywhere with Gray, let’s play the infinitely better now and better later Noah….it’s stupid to argue against it.
I do wish Noah would be more, but he still does things others at his spot (Gooden and Gray) can’t on the D ends….and has a high bball IQ—I think Noah can be a credible starter in a few years if he takes the time at the gym.
by majoyenrac on Jan 8, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My point was Will Perdue was traded
for a much more valuable player (Rodman), which was Perdue’s greatest contribution to the Bulls.
I agree it would take an exceptional situation to get more than an 10th man back for Gray.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 8, 2009 6:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But he plays the same position as your two best players
so he won’t be contributing much more than Larry or Tyrus even if he does stay.
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 6, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that's the problem.
I advocate trading Kirk. He won’t be as good as Rose or BG long term, plus Hinrich has trade value which is a bonus. He simply makes too much money and should be moved.
It’s just annoying we have several good guards and zero good bigs. And teams don’t like to trade big for small.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unless you're the Kings
And need a good PG way more than they need Brad Miller.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 6, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ask a Kings fan and they'll group Hinrich and Udrih in a similar tier
and it’s tough to argue with them
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lol
say that after tonight. Udrih is dreadful.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 6, 2009 4:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and i don't know where it comes from
sure, they were close in PER last year when hinrich was terrible. someone on here was talking about “the past 2 years” but before 07-08 he averaged 13 minutes, not really a basis of comparison.
by Jaina on Jan 6, 2009 4:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's mostly from extrapolating that first full season
and the fact that Hinrich makes plenty more. I think they’d agree that Hinrich’s better, but not enough upgrade in production for the upgrade in price.
I can see their point. Besides, Hinrich would fit in better with a team closer to contention than the Kings anyway.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 4:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That I can see.
But I actually like the idea of a Hinrich/Martin backcourt. Hinrich bringing D and ballhandling; Martin sniping away from the corners.
Price is the issue. Again.
Those contracts are killing us.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 6, 2009 4:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed.
People need to understand but what a statistic measures, and statistical power, before they use a metric.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 6, 2009 4:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they're only not GMs
because they didn’t play in the league :-p
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kwame Brown isn't leading the Whiz
to a championship?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 6, 2009 11:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does that explain your use of statistics?
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 6, 2009 6:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets not get carried away
the Bulls D – where dreadful looks awesome happens
by reprisal on Jan 6, 2009 7:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't see his stats
But he looked alright, got open quite a bit, but didn’t see the ball….
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 4:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
Yeah keep Kirk cuz I like him :)….
But it’s also that I think a Kirk-Rose-BG tandem would be nipping on a great 3 player team like the old Pistons (as other BaBers have indicated).
But I want Kirk traded now because we NEED a C.
I am not on the side of trading Thomas….I don’t care if he never becomes anything, the potential for him to become something is growing by the game….while statistically he’s not improving where we’d expect, watching him, he now has arc to his shot, is becoming a better man to man and team defender, isn’t missing his assignments, and can do things nobody else at the PF spot can do (handle and attack like a guard, but defend like an elite C, and run the court like a PG)…..
Of course he has a ways to go for maturity into these roles, but he’s been opening up to the media more, and seems to want to become the player he can be (unfortunately being a bit too confident—see the Celtics game—-just yet).
But I bet if the Bulls trade him with Hughes just to trade him, we’ll be thinking Tyson Chandler was just another Aaron Gray pretty soon…..guys with the raw Tyrus skill sets don’t come into the league often….
I know there’s still only a 25% chance of him reaching all that potential, but that’s still a chance I’d rather sit and frustrate with at least for a few mroe years…
by majoyenrac on Jan 6, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Trade TT why and for what? Is he stealing minutes from some diamond in the rough? Will somebody trade us a BETTER big man? When we abandoned the Curry-Chandler fc (rightfully, I think), we set the course for rebuilding. It won’t happen quickly. If our 2 lotto picks turn into crap, we won’t get anything back for them. We’re stuck waiting. We just got sensationally good offensively at PG. Developing TT and Noah’s games or playing them out of the league this year and next are the A-priority; has been for two years now.
by California Al on Jan 6, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting idea, but I think the case has to begin with blasphemy
and that is, the way to keep Kirk is to trade Rose. If you could trade him a long with Hughes and Noc for say, Oden and whatever combination of desirable players/picks Portland could muster, would you?
by California Al on Jan 6, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
isn't Oden falling apart?
No you wouldn’t make this trade. Not to keep the Captain
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 6, 2009 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just a hypothetical trade
The question was how do you keep Hinrich (logically). My quick guess is that you’d have to trade Rose for it to make sense, and of course, Rose is a franchise player who actually could command an awful lot in return. So, forget Oden, if you don’t like him. The idea is that possibly Rose could be packaged with Hughes and Noc to get rid of a lot of junk and bring back something REALLY good to rebuild the team now. How about Al Jefferson, Foye and pciks. Or whatever turns you on. If you could, would you?
I just don’t think that Hinrich and his salary can be kept on a team that has a starting pg and an inflexible cap.
by California Al on Jan 6, 2009 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
but I don’t think you trade a potential franchise player. You build around that guy. In my opinion, Kirk isn’t a top 10 pg. I’m unsure if you could ever win a championship with Kirk logging heavy minutes at the point. The gulf between Rose and Hinrich is too wide to ever consider trading Rose and keeping Kirk unless you can get a true superstar back (ie Kobe, Lebron, Howard, Wade, Bosh). Jefferson doesn’t fit the bill. No one you could conceivably trade for would.
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 6, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, that was my point
None of the very best in the league are going anywhere, because they’re all on title contenders. So if you could trade Rose and in the process get rid of our worst, and pick up some really nice parts, I still don’t think you do it. Therefore, Kirk doesn’t fit in the budget as a backup swing guard.
by California Al on Jan 6, 2009 2:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No it makes sense on some level
It’s just never been done and no GM has the balls to make such a move. I don’t blame them either. Oden for Rose might be hated in Chicago, but most GMs would prefer Oden. I think there was some Portland newspaper article written about this idea already, if both were in the draft right now who would be taken first.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 6, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting
NBATV had on a roundtable talk with Greg, and look who showed up: Bob Lanier, David Robinson, Bill Russell, Luke Walton and Patrick Ewing. They haven’t demoted him at all yet. Most common thing I hear about him is that if he can ignore they hype, and just concentrate on learning the NBA game, he’s going to be everything advertised.
by California Al on Jan 6, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking Hakeem on defense, offensively he's still a question mark
Not as quick as Hakeem in the full court, but he’s definitely fast enough to alter shots, strong enough to outrebound almost anyone.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 6, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Patrick comapred him to himself
Said that the knock was that he didn’t have an offensive game, so that’s what he worked on. And Walton told him to shoot every time he gets the ball; every time!
by California Al on Jan 6, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ewing was one of the best shooting big men ever
If Oden could shoot like that, well he’d be pretty darn good.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 6, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How many championships did the Knicks
win with Ewing? Now if Oden had the same potential as Alcindor, it would be a different story.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 6, 2009 11:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Aww, c'mon, Granny
There has never been a player with Alcindor’s potential. He was so dominant relative to his era, it would take a 7’4" LBJ to equal what Lew’s potential was back in the mid-60’s.
by California Al on Jan 7, 2009 1:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My point was for the Bulls to trade the
hometown kid who is a potential superstar, they would need a 30/16 player like Alcindor was in his prime in return to pacify the fans.
Same reason that Cleveland can not consider trading LBJ, even if he tells the team he is not coming back in 2010 – they have to publicly offer him a max contract.
As for Oden, he could well end up being the second coming of Robert Parish, e.g. a valuable contributor on a championship team, but not a league dominating player.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 7, 2009 7:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sure hope he earns his minutes first
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if the team were continue playing this poorly at the time Kirk would be coming back...
what would people think of possibly benching Rose for Hinrich? it doesn’t necessarily have to affect Rose’s minutes at all, but who knows, it might have the same effect the Donovan McNabb benching had for the Eagles… maybe it sends a message to the team that nobody gets a free pass and everyone’s gotta pull their own weight, while also possibly lighting a fire under Rose (let’s face it, these past couple weeks he has been playing some uninspired basketball, you have to admit).
… obviously Del Negro would probably give Rose his wife for a night before he ever benched him but i was just kinda thinking outside the box cuz the status quo is obviously not working for this team.
by Danny Satan on Jan 6, 2009 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yes, we need more messages
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 6, 2009 4:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah bench someone for no reason
that will show them!
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 6, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you act like i'm saying they should make him the last guy off the bench...
i don’t get why benching has become such a dirty word; i obviously don’t mean “bench Rose” in the same way i might say “bench Hughes”. what i’m saying is, why not try something new if this garbage team continues playing like this? look at Manu Ginobili… he doesn’t start, yet he still played 32 minutes a game last year and finished 5th in the MVP voting.
i don’t see what’s the big deal in possibly letting hinrich start when he comes back just to see how it works. i highly doubt Rose would really care that much that he didn’t get to be introduced in the starting lineups, the kid just wants to win. if his play somehow suffers, put him back in the starting 5.
by Danny Satan on Jan 6, 2009 6:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
arbitrary punishment is ridiculous
if you think Rose is the problem, you bench him. But since he obviously isn’t the problem, your point is ridiculous.
And I think Rose would be pissed if he was taken out of the starting line up after how well he has played.
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 7, 2009 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would hate it
Though seeing Aaron Gray and to a much lesser extent Nocioni and Gooden eat up Tyrus Thomas and Noah minutes while we have no solution makes me wonder if it’s a-coming……
by majoyenrac on Jan 7, 2009 4:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No,
that’s just bad coaching. Get used to it. :P
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Jan 8, 2009 12:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You gotta take the seven footer
Just because of supply and demand. We always here about Portland screwing up by taking Bowie, but was Houston that much smarter for taking Hakeem? Only a little, but you don’t get many shots at a real NBA center. That’s why there are so many Kwame type blown picks.
by California Al on Jan 7, 2009 1:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unless the 6' 6" guy ends up being the GOAT.
To be fair to Portland, most people thought MJ would only be slightly better than Drexler, who had a great career at the 2.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 7, 2009 7:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And until 1992
Many people thought they were relative equals.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 7, 2009 7:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ah clyde "the glide"
yet another spectacular player who got swept up (more like swallowed) by the TSUNAMI known as Air Jordan….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 7, 2009 10:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rose for LeBron, yes
(if you can stand James’ showboating).
Rose for Dwight Howard – maybe.
Rose for CP3 or D-Will AND Chris Bosh. OK.
Anything less than a young 1st Team NBA player or two relatively young 2nd Team NBA players is a non-starter.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 6, 2009 11:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The captains
all look like leaders OFF the floor rather than on it.
I’d take Allan Houston as my team captain off the court, but give me Charles Oakley on the court.
Our big problem is we have no leader on the floor that can get into his teammates face with constructive, but sometimes brutal criticism.
Do we ever see Deng, Gooden, or Hinrich pull a teammate in and let er rip? I see an avalanche of opportunities where this treatment is called for.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well it's the truth
The org needs more from Deng, and definately needs Gooden (even if Gooden’s not perfect, he’s a piece even if he was off the bench), and there’s no question Hinrich would help us out defensively and when the game’s tight.
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Where'd you get the idea that we have the talent to compete?
In what world is Gordon, Deng, and a 20 year old Rose at all competitive with Garnett-Pierce-Allen, or LeBron-Z-Williams, or Howard-Lewis-Turkoglu?
Gordon’s great, but he’s not a #1 playoff option. Deng’s a role player. And Rose just isn’t that good yet (his -7.3 plus minus doesn’t lie).
When we won 49 games, we had two of the league’s best interior defenders in Wallace and Brown. Now we have gaping holes, and I’m not convinced Rose-Gordon-Deng this year is any better than Hinrich-Gordon-Deng in ’06.
Two or three years from now, hopefully Rose will be the 22 PER, .570 TS% guy we projected him to be. And hopefully Gordon will be around still. But until then, there’s no reason to think we’re any more talented than our record. We just aren’t good.
by YaoPau on Jan 4, 2009 11:34 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Apparently they're not competitive with Jefferson-Foye-Love either
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jan 4, 2009 11:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What does the minus have to do with how good Rose is
Isn’t Duncan even in the minus; I think its much better to watch the games and make an assessment off that rather than those charts that seem more for fantasy leagues.
Even old NBA players say those don’t tell the story very well.
We have the talent to be over .500 but I don’t know if talent is always in the same group as competence.
I mean Rose is trying to facilitate an offense his numbers aren’t gonna wow you I think. And hes trying to get guys involved and sometimes just waits which I think brings about that stat. But he is already one of the Elite PGs and BG is in the plus. Not sure if he would have to be no.1 if we’re at “full strength” I’d think we’d flip flop a bit.
by Camry on Jan 4, 2009 11:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rose isn't an elite PG, not yet
Duncan is in the minus, but the Spurs are still +3.1 when he’s on the court. The Bulls are -5.2 when Rose is on the court, +2.1 when he’s off it. Big difference.
And Rose’s other stats show that he’s average, not elite. Look how he stacks up to some of the league’s premier points in terms of PER and TS%:
Paul: 30.1 PER, .608% TS%
Harris: 25.0, .587%
Parker: 23.5, .552%
Billups: 20.4, .589%
Calderon: 19.0, .633%
Rose: 15.7, .527 TS%
It’s not close.
I agree with you that there’s more to it than just stats, and so you have to watch the games too. But like Tyrus, Rose will have the occasional “WOW” play that fools us into thinking he’s better than he actually is, when in reality it’s just 2 points.
by YaoPau on Jan 5, 2009 12:08 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldnt worry about that
Remember when the Bulls were on the Circus trip and KC had a quote in everyday’s Bulls article about how Phil, Tony Parker, Nellie, Jerry Sloan, Deron Williams, Diantoni,….ect….. all praised him. Sure he has hit a wall and now it seems every other game is a bad game, but praise for a player doesn’t come every year.
Let’s see if when he get’s his second wind the bad games become few and further between and if he starts playing any defensive later in the year.
by Jscho316 on Jan 5, 2009 12:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Holy negative post, batman
:-\
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Jan 5, 2009 12:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but I must say, a damn good one at that.
Rec for you, good sir.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Jan 5, 2009 1:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am not a stats guy but
What is the sample size of when Rose is off the court? He plays close to 40 mins a night I would think that the off the court sample size would be rather small compared to when he is on the court.
The sample would suggest that some combo of Hughes, Thabo, Gordon, or Hunter is superior. I find that extremely hard to digest.
"If you're not going to compete, then I'll dominate you." MJ
by Rankdog on Jan 5, 2009 2:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well Rose is a guy who is trying to get everyone involved
When Gordon and Hughes are in there they’re jacking it up Gordons been the most consistent and Hughes was pretty good for a time. But also the calls that are in favor of Rose and not go agianst him I think. His willingness to defer to teammates that have no offensive abilities and then you have his defense which lead to those stats.
In the end we have an even worse record without Rose.
by Camry on Jan 5, 2009 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And he is considered an Elite PG his impact on the game is pretty big
Being a facilitator he isn’t always going to be wowing you with his stats.
I think your too worried about stats instead of actually watching and making an evaluation from there.
The other day Thomas had great stats yeah 15pt-8rbs-8blocks-4assist-
but you claimed he wouldn’t of had an impact if he played the fourth quarter because of his plus and minus? Your clinging too it too tightly let it breathe that stat is too black and white. If your team isn’t playing well your going to have a minus.
If Rose is on the court for a good 40 minutes he is usually the one helping us get a lead back though his defense gives up a lot at times. And then you have Ben in the plus who usually is going off early in games to keep us in it. No one else is giving us anything sure Rose isn’t going to dominate every night hes a rookie but he is Elite in most peoples eyes. (coaches-media so thats a done deal for me) But also Rose is a guy trying to help his teammates get comfortable and get in a groove. If they all fail his silly plus and minus will be negative.
by Camry on Jan 5, 2009 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not yet is the key.
Why not compare Rose to the other players as rookies…I know why, because that is not your point…but still, Rose is a rookie who was playing in High School two years ago…while I get your point, its unfair to expect him to be an elite PG yet…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 5, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying he is considered an Elite PG right now
Because truthfully he doesn’t fall in the category of the regulars either. I’m just saying his status around the league not labeling him myself.
by Camry on Jan 5, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I mean you got all these other guys with much better supporting casts as well
Truthfully I would put him in there but my point….well really just fact is that a number of guys around the league are saying he is in the group. It doesn’t take a guy like Calderon out of the group.
by Camry on Jan 5, 2009 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Status around the league?
According to what?
by YaoPau on Jan 5, 2009 5:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Chris Broussard reported it on national television that hes considered in that group when asked
And also when defenses gear up to stop you then I think you got something going there. You got guys who all give you something different really and he doesn’t fall into the regular group of PGs for sure. You can think differently of course but for every reason someone thinks he isn’t theres one for thinking he is.
I really think those +/- stats are for fantasy leagues or more for a number of players at a time rather than 1 player. If your on a bad team yours will be bad its just too cut and dry like that.
by Camry on Jan 6, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
YaoPau
Camry’s right. If you watch any of the Bulls games that have appeared on ESPN this year almost all of them have clips from the sideline crew reflecting thoughts and comments made to them in private about how much better Rose is this early than they had anticipated.
You don’t see players like Dwayne Wade making public comments about how good Rose is already for shits and giggles. It’s real.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 6, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention
almost every coach of the opposing squad has had something to say about him.
you definitely don’t get comments from wade and d-will for nothin.
by Jaina on Jan 6, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's real how athletic he is
But coaches and media circle jerked over Larry Hughes when he had his big season in Washington. The media’s perception of his is the reason he was a 1st team defender.
Regardless of reputation, the stats don’t lie. If Rose is elite, then McGrady and Iverson are superstars.
by YaoPau on Jan 8, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
stats, stats, stats
Forget Hollinger’s B.S.!!!!
Celtics leading scorer is Paul Pierce, at 29th in the league overall.
Starting to get it?
by rtblues on Jan 5, 2009 2:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing you haven't
unless I missed that Hollinger publication: “PPG and you”
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 9:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
haha, but...
You’d naturally assume that the team who just won it all, must have at least ONE guy in the top twenty NBA scoring. But they don’t, PP is thier leader at 29th in the league.
My comment was pointing out you don’t necessarily need a top ten scorer on your roster to win it all.
So, I guess you’d rather NOT see the Bulls swing the ball more, use more of the 24 second clock in half-court sets, share the ball more, and hit the open man.
Just find a BIG scorer to dump into, let him get his 30, and still lose by 10. Lots of teams tried that. By the way, I dislike the Celtics in general, but, there is no arguing with success. Bulls could take a few lessons here.
Rather than fantasize about deals that Pax will never make here, what about if the current players started taking some individual responsibility? If every guy on the team committed to defense, communicated better on D, shared the ball, and in general, adopt more of a team vs a me concept, the Bulls would be better right now, with the existing guys.
Which leads us full-circle back to VDN. Skiles took the same bunch, MINUS ROSE, a lot further, and they were at least “in” a lot of their losses. VDN is not able to get the max out of his guys. WHY?
R ES P E C T…
If the fans on this board dis VDN cause of his inexperience, what do you think the players really think of this guy? Damn, at least Skiles HAD SOME intensity. VDN stands there expressionless, like a lost puppy dog. Cool how the players don’t even pay attention to him in the huddles too.
DO THE MATH. Thing is, they should AXE VDN sooner than later.
But they won’t, it would admit their mistake in hiring him. Besides, then they’d be paying THREE coaches at once, VDN, Skiles (still paying him) and the new guy.
P.S. The money blown on Skiles payoff, VDN’s contract, well, coulda bought us a PF Jerry!!!
by rtblues on Jan 6, 2009 2:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The East is pathetic outside of the top 3.
A washed up Detroit squad and Atlanta are the next best teams, you’re saying the Bulls can’t be in the op 8?
Rose is average to really good, but with a team that has Deng, Gordon, Tyrus, Noah, Gooden, and Hughes that is more than enough talent to hover a few games above .500 and stay competitive in most games.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 5, 2009 12:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We're only 1.5 out of the playoffs
Sure we can squeeze in, but we aren’t in Atlanta’s class.
Tyrus… Noah… Gooden… Hughes? All four of them are 14 PER guys with .520 TS%‘s. They’re worse than the average NBA starter, and they play big minutes for us because we’re worse than the average NBA team.
Gordon is the only player on our team who’s clearly above average. Once the conversation turns from talent to ability, the Bulls roster doesn’t hold up.
by YaoPau on Jan 5, 2009 1:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
PLayoffs! Playoffs!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3-eavMSBnk
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 5, 2009 1:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Being competitive doesn't mean beating or dominating any team thats in Elite status
Seriously you don’t need all those stats.
by Camry on Jan 5, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
washed up Detroit squad?
That washed up squad is 21-11 and has won like their last 9 straight.
What are you following?
by rtblues on Jan 5, 2009 2:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
I’m talking about high-40s, a 6-8 seed. Not beating the Celtics, Cavs, or Magic.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Feb. 18th
That is the deadline to panic. If this ship isnt turned around by then, kaboom goes the pax-dorf regime. Im not talking about personally either, i mean i think anyone who has a business with the bulls loses favor by then.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....
by piccolomair on Jan 4, 2009 11:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately, there's no hope of the "dorf" part going.
Too much money to be made.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 5, 2009 8:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Come on Paulson! We need an NBA bailout to get rid of a few owners.
Reinsdorf and Sterling got to go.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 9:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
JR has to start worrying about losing the fan base here soon.
I read somewhere he went to lunch with John McCain and he was mentioning loosing corporate sponsors with the Bulls.
I think he needs to get out of AZ and show his face now and then. Maybe show he cares what’s going on.Do you think he even watches Bulls games? You always see him doing stuff with the White Sox but not the Bulls. Why doesn’t he just sell the team? He got his six titles now get out and sell to someone who wants to win in Chicago.
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 5, 2009 1:17 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
did you read it here?
http://www.blogabull.com/2008/12/19/697842/i-was-just-having-lunch-w
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 9:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
why doesnt he sell?
maybe because they make him money ?
by CJOliveira on Jan 6, 2009 4:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have to say I don't think I can
wait a month and a half for a trade to go down at 4 in the afternoon. When do you think we’ll start hearing some names? Seems like things have died down on the trade rumors.
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 5, 2009 1:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm in the same boat
Waiting this long has already caused serious harm. They need to get something done.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 5, 2009 8:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
one last thing re: Hughes
Yeah, he is a nightmare, but this talk of trade him now…. TO WHO!?!?!?!?
Again, his best value is a HUGE expiring in 2010.
And if you wanna argue, name ONE TEAM that would want Hughes at 15 mill per? Even for ONE year. One team please.
It ain’t that easy to get rid of your crap in the NBA!
by rtblues on Jan 5, 2009 2:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
sure it is
you just take other crap.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 9:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But you have to be willing not to play the other crap
We thought the Bulls wouldn’t feel any need to play Hughes when they got him, but obviously they do. With Wallace last year and Hughes this year, I think it’s safe to assume they’re going to play anyone who makes that much money, regardless of how badly he kills the team.
Unless they actually think Hughes can play, which would be even more frightening.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
by Big D on Jan 5, 2009 9:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
right, I think it may be the latter
at least in Vinny’s world. Though Pax was saying nice things about Hughes’ defense and tall-ness preseason too.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Then trade him for two shity players who make half as much
Trade him for Jerome James and Malik Allen
Trade him and Gooden for Marbury and buy Marbury out.
Trade him and $3M cash for Kenny Thomas or Bobby Simmons
Trade him, Thabo and Gooden for Jason Hart, Ricky Davis and Marcus Camby
Offer that three way trade I suggested the other day (Miller + Hughes to the Mavs, Gooden + Stackhouse to the Kings + Dampier and change to us). Or a trade with OKC (Hughes + cash + Thabo if they want him – for Watson, Wilkins and Petro).
All of those deals wouldn’t hurt anything long run (and actually help) and be massive addition by subtraction. Get it done.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 5, 2009 9:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Malik Rose
No way Skiles lets go of Allen :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's so funny
Because everyone saying trade Gooden and Hughes for complete crap and not play that crap at all, will be happy for 2-3 weeks to a month and then will crucify Pax more when the team loses even more alarming rates than it is now…..
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If the team keeps losing then
At least we all know to completely give up on everyone on the team besides Rose.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 5, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As a GM of a team
that’s the last thing they want is the entire city to completely give up on the team though. Easy to say that in fantasy blog world, less easy to do in reality when millions of dollars of revenue are at stake and a huge worldwide fanbase of one of what is still a premeir NBA brand, the Chicago Bulls.
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Grizzlies recent transactions
Traded FOR Steve Francis.
Signed Darius Miles.
I really think anything is possible, but at the least Larry Hughes can not play at all and whine about it publicly to force the “Tim Thomas” treatment.
I mean, Larry really can’t play at this level anymore. It’s taking your chances with his jumper or watching him flail around like a headless chicken going to the rim.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 9:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
THis team was in need of a trade back in July/August…..then they were in need of a trade more in Oct, then Hinrich got hurt and Pax got scared…..and I still thought something would happen by early Dec.
I expect a trade happens now by the deadline, if it does not, I want Paxson to get the axe. I think the organization owes that to the fans…..Pax’s job is to make a balanced roster, and anyone from inside to outside knew this roster was anything but balanced after last year’s much needed trade.
We have some assets, part with anyone not named Rose and be done with it…..
A trade for the sake of a new voice is exactly what this team needs (preferably a trade for a big wouldn’t hurt though)…
It’s hard to be Vinny and get this team motivated when the team knows they’re all susceptible to trades and that everyone plays the same position (Well ever good player—Rose-Gordon-Hinrich-Sefalosha-Hughes, yes Hughes isn’t as bad as we make him out to be, he’s just not as good as our big 3, and eats a lot of cap)….
Really frustrating. Every day the lack of movement gets me a Big Pax fan, excited to see the big Pax exodus. Hopefully he surprises again with a big, much needed trade, but when you hear about Camby going elsewhere and all this crap, it really does make you think Pax is just riding it out. This team has too much talent to be in the below avg group out East…..I know it’s guard talent, but talent is talent…
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 9:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
We're in a crucial homestand right now
5 home games against some of the worst teams in the NBA. Vinny and Pax have to win the remaining 4 games.
I don’t see how they can afford to lose any of them. If the boobirds are out at the UC because the Bulls are trailing the Thunder we will have hit rock bottom.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's only 3 games
after that it’s Portland, which I’ve been told the Bulls have no chance of beating, or losing to by less than 20 points. Expectations, people!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 5, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Man I need a trade like....
yesterday!
Vinny is a con man!!!!!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 5, 2009 10:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
why is getting a 6-8 seed in the playoffs a meaningful goal?
i personally don’t think playoffs are even possible, even if this phantom trade that is supposedly in the works ends up purifying this dirty team somehow. but that’s besides the point.
i wanna know how getting a 6-8 seed in the playoffs is “not a meaningless goal”. even teams seeded that low almost always have some sort of ace in the hole that makes their players and fans think, “well hey, if a couple things go right and this guy gets on fire, we could see ourselves in the conference finals, and then from there anything can happen.”
…which leads me to my next question: how can anybody possibly think there’s a scenario where the Bulls, even if they do sneak in, could offer that kind of optimism? a 4-0 sweep and missing out on the lottery (where even a 0.9% chance is better than a 0.0% chance) doesn’t seem at all worth it.
by Danny Satan on Jan 5, 2009 11:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Due to cap and age issues
The expectations that the draft will supply us with answers moving forward is very small.
We’re going to get better by moving our existing pieces for other pieces. The playoffs are a better position to play from anyway. We don’t want to put Rose into a season of mediocrity to damage his long term development.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 5, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Given this team's track record in the lottery
I don’t want to go down that road again. It’s another season of high expectations from a teenager who will need 3-4 years to start paying dividends,
Don’t look at the playoffs from a perspective of “if we can’t win it’s pointless.” Making the playoffs gets Derrick Rose on the national stage, and a chance to play in big games. I don’t want him to be stuck in a culture of losing, it will give a very young person an excuse to not try as hard.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 5, 2009 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Plus it gives the org
and fanbase a little more hope….and makes the city a bit more excited for Rose’s future (seeing as he took a 33 win team back to the post season)….
Finally, look at the confidence the post season gave to the upstart Hawks, the 37 win upstart Hawks who lost their way into the playoffs last year down the stretch, and were luckily out-lost by the Pacers….
by majoyenrac on Jan 5, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't even want a draft pick.
i hope they trade it.
by Jaina on Jan 5, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Or just sell the draft pick to a team and use the money to sign a FA.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 5, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree that we don't want Rose to be stuck in a losing environment...
but what trade could the Bulls possibly make at this point that would upgrade their talent level to that of a borderline playoff team? our players’ stock has no doubt dropped quite a bit these past 20 days or so and it’s not likely to get much higher between now and the deadline. it’s possible that any realistic trade would involve dumping salary and getting back inferior talent, digging this season’s current hole even deeper.
if the Bulls just stick it out this season and bench the “cancers”, they could potentially get better, which would be a victory in itself. if they bottom out, then at least they can see who they really want to be here next here and in the process, maybe the guys they don’t want around can at least increase their trade value, which, packaged with what would at that point become a nice lottery pick, could land better talent next offseason. … or at least better talent than we could get with the assets we have now.
by Danny Satan on Jan 5, 2009 1:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or the team could revolt like last year
with veterans over-running the locker room and your cancer has now spread to the prize franchise PG.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 5, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The depression level here may be at an all-time low.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 5, 2009 12:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I think you meant at an all-time high and I would agree! This is the second season of
unreasonable Bulls grief.
by chgobr on Jan 5, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, correct.
Reading all the way down though just got more and more sad.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 5, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
......
Seeing them lose to the T Wolves really made not want to watch this team anymore. My main thing is the total lack of defense…this team has no concept of team D…if we could play even mediocre/average team D, then the Bulls could be at .500 or a little better.
We offer every team unlimited layup lines. They never communicate…do they even like each other? The only people on the team I know that are actual friends are Thabo and Noah. It would help if they did team stuff together, even corny stuff like bowling together or team dinner.
Even if we make a trade, this team still has so many holes. And Reinsdorf, please please please sell the team to someone who actually likes basketball, please. with sprinkles on top.
by C Smoove on Jan 5, 2009 12:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It is funny
that for years it seemed they desperately needed some offense. I know I felt like I didn’t care if they were middle of the pack defense if it meant great offense. Now, watching all the inside scoring and uncontested layups I get so annoyed. I want the defense back!
But the really crazy thing is that they are still 19th in defense. Nothing to be excited about obviously, but what are these 11 other teams doing to be worse?
by CJ Bulls on Jan 5, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The team could have used a Festivus celebration
The “airing of grievances” is pretty popular subject around my social circles. Throw in some holiday boos and it’s downright stand up comedy.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.