Tyrus Thomas era needs to be over
by CJ Bulls on Jan 3, 2009 1:42 PM CST
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PrintI think it's time to just sit back, take a breath, and realize it's never going to happen for Tyrus. At least not with the Bulls. This is now his third year, historically the year that players make a big leap in their game. After three years, I can honestly say he is no better today than he was as a rookie. His game is one problem after another. The biggest problem being he has no game.
He is a jack of all trades, below average at everything, master of nothing. This problem causes him to remain completely unfocused for what he should be doing on the court. At least with Noah (who probably should go too), he knows his limitations and has a mold for what type of player he should be. With Tyrus, he can't decide where to apply any of his various skills. For every positive, there's a negative.
He has great form but can't shoot.
He has great athleticism but chooses not to take advantage of it.
He has great defensive tools but can't seem to keep his head in the game.
Patience is always something I feel should be preached, especially as it applies to Paxson and VDN etc. But with Tyrus, there doesn't seem to be any true development. He isn't moving in a positive directions. If anything his game is trending downward. There's no point in finding patience for a guy who just doesn't seem to get it or even learn from his mistakes. I can't find any negatives that I remember from his rookie year that he has corrected now in his 3rd year.
I watched him specifically against Cleveland as well as Cedric Simmons. While I was watching, I did my own personal scouting to ask who was the former #2 (or 4) pick? You know, if I had no idea and just watched for the first time. At the end, I found myself leaning towards Simmons because of his height, strength, and finishing advantages. I know it was only one game, but when Tyrus athleticism isn't on display, he appears below average as a player.
Tyrus has been compared to several players (Kemp, Marion, Stoudemire). I decided to post their career links below. I want someone to find any real similarities in their games. Go ahead, try your best. He may have their athleticism, but he doesn't have any of their skill.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kempsh01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mariosh01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stoudam01.html
All of these players made waves by their second year or sooner. Tyrus is now in his third year, two removed from high school on top of that. He is not exactly the young raw player he once was. He's just the moderately young, moderately raw bust. The Bulls need to move him and move on. I wish him well, hopefully he can have a Tyson-like resurgence.
I wanted to close out this post with a bang by comparing his numbers with a guy he does resemble. But sadly, upon looking at it, even Stromile Swift was outperforming Tyrus at this point in his career.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/swiftst01.html
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I wish there was an "anti-rec" button for posts we disagree with.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 5, 2009 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
*flags original post*
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
The flags are really for inappropriate posts.
What I would like is the rec button replaced with a “Thumbs up/thumbs down” option.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 5, 2009 11:31 PM CST up reply actions
Guh
I’ve given up on deluding myself into thinking he’ll ever amount to anything. In some ways I think he was better his rookie year.
you know I was thinking the same things.
He used to be ok. He used to be able to give you production. I think he’s playing this way on purpose. I would pause the Bulls defesively and really he made no effort. I still don’t get it. You have to try to be that bad. Some thing is fishy.
Wow the Bulls have become the Clippers!
I would put the game in slow motion and it almost seemed like he was doing it
on purpose. I was saying to my gf I think he wants to be traded. Tyrus, Gray and Nocioni take the worst angles on defense. How can you be so dumb?
Their was one play when gray stepped out on a screen for Lebron and fouled him at half court. He just run up to him and nailed him.
Tyrus must have smoked up before the game. I counted like 6 or 7 times he lost his man and was jogging.
Wow the Bulls have become the Clippers!
I don't say that he's doing it on purpose
But I do think that he lost all the joy and passion that he had on his rookie year… I don’t see that anymore. Just a guy standing there, waiting to see what happens on the offensive end and trying to score now and then. We need a coach to teach our big man how to play. This, of course, if Pax still believes in him and wants to keep him around…
amen brother!
>"We need a coach to teach our big man how to play. "
That’s it!!!
All VDN coaching flaws aside
Let’s put the blame squarely where it lies:
On Tyrus.
Had he been willing to work for Skiles (See Mbah a Moute, Luc Richard) he could have developed into a serious player.
A bunch of raw athleticism with no smarts and no heart from the get-go.
Now please Tyrus, go prove me wrong.
http://thegettinplace.blogspot.com/
You mean, before he had the taint of this organization?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Why not the "at least not with the Bulls" caveat?
If he succeeds somewhere else, isn’t that more damning of the Bulls organization? What if Rose doesn’t break out until the organization is overhauled.
Let me pose this question: Who on the Bulls has been on the ascension the past two years?
Hinrich is worse. Deng is worse. Nocioni is declining. Noah is worse this year than last. Gordon was worse last year, but is better this year. Ben Wallace was horrible last year and better this year in Cleveland. I guess Joe Smith was good last year. Hell Aaron Gray is actually down in PER this year. Thabo hasn’t gotten much better.
So yeah, Hinrich, Deng, Gordon, Thomas, Sefolosha, Noah, Gray, Nocioni. All guys in their prime or even younger than it. Not one has shown to be demonstrably better than when they arrived.
So sure, it’s all Thomas’s fault, but I’ll be waiting on your posts ending the eras of Hinrich, Deng, Noah, Nocioni, Gordon and Seflosha soon. Maybe it’s the “Paxson” era that needs to end.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 3, 2009 2:03 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
tyrus was the 4th pick
and was traded for good player so there is more to talk about here then those other failures.
No, it isn't more damning
if he succeeds elsewhere, it would likely have been preceded with a reduced set of expectations as well as a much lower investment made by that acquiring organization. They’re interpretation of success is a reasonable return on their investment. Tyrus, barring some miraculous, unforseen leap in development will be hardpressed to bring the Bulls any form of return, even via trade. At this point what Tyrus has cost the Bulls aside from the opportunity cost of that #2 pick (which we can directly value as LMA) and money is time.
And for the Tyson comparisons, they do apply, in my opinion. Tyson showed flashes early in his career, some stagnance, then a trend of regression, then it became obvious he would need a fresh start to have a chance at a successful career. Tyrus would be at wave three. And before we start lamenting Tyson too much, it looks like he’s reverted closer to the Tyson we knew and from what I’ve heard has been on the trading block (for names like Rasheed, etc.).
by messwiththebull on Jan 3, 2009 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
I think you have seen improvements out of almost all of those players
Hinrich, Deng, and Noc have been on some weird bell curve of talent, but at least you can say they are better players than they were their rookie year. Plus, they have improved in other phases of their game like Hinrich’s A/TO ratio and Noc’s scoring and adjustment to the NBA 3.
Gordon, despite a small step back last year continues to improve as a player. He goes to the basket considerably more and reduced his turnovers greatly. TOs were his biggest problem.
Sefolosha is no longer a shattered mess on the court, although that may be more a Skiles thing than Pax thing. But he clearly looks more confident and assertive with the basketball.
Gray…..well he’s trying his best out there.
And the biggest difference is
those players are all considerably better players than Tyrus. And the ones you could argue are worse, were taken considerably lower in the draft.
exactly,
Noah and Thabo were late lottery picks, Noc a virtually minimum contract free agent.
did you read what I wrote?
“those players are all considerably better players than Tyrus. And the ones you could argue are worse, were taken considerably lower in the draft.”
no way
I am convinced that tyrus is turning it around and will be averaging 15 8 and 2 and 2 by the end of the year. Every time he gets going he has had injuries this year (really bad timing). He struggle early but has shown signs.
I think the main problem is that he hasn’t gotten consistent burn since that early period (gets pulled on any defensive lapses) and has no clear role in the offense (notice how when he gets the ball isolated he immediately looks to pass it). Run play for him!
You havn’t seen the great drives to the basket and how much quicker he is then other players? Its only a matter of time. Im pretty convinced of this.
I'm convinced
of the ability, just not his ability to use it. The post above about the organization’s failures to develop anyone is very fair, and is definitely accountable for Tyrus being what he is. But it almost seems too late for him (despite his age). He seems to play like it’s real life NBA Jam rather than understanding the game…after 3 years of being in the league, that one’s on him.
by M 80 on Jan 3, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Just last night
we say Ty get the rebound and then decide it was best for the team if he ran a full-court one man fast break, only to end in what we all knew it would: an offensive foul on Tyrus. Car crash basketball at its best, sure he’ll be productive on occassion, but it’s his haphazard play that is the disappointment. Even haphazard play can yield production; that doesn’t mean you use that production to justify a player’s shortcomings.
by messwiththebull on Jan 3, 2009 3:53 PM CST up reply actions
Agree with you there,
that’s why I won’t be upset if he does well elsewhere. He has the phsyical ability to do it. It’s his mental coordination that seems to be lacking. He hasn’t figured out the NBA game, not even close. Sure, you can say part of that is the Bulls fault. But in reality, players are responsible to make themselves better. They shouldn’t just sit around and hope the Bulls teach them right. I know TT has worked with David Thorpe, but I guess that isn’t really getting through to him either.
OK now after having read it I very much agree with everything written
minus the point about him being below average at everything. I don’t have the numbers to support it, but i’ll bet he’s shown to be an above average shot blocker.
Anyways here’s what I think is Tyrus’ main issue: coordination. I think the guy is just really un-coordinated. His inability to finish ANYTHING around the basket is proof of that. It is also demonstrated in several other areas of his game. One of them is when he dunks.
Now, we’ve all seen Tyrus dunk and know he is capable of doing some powerful shit when he get’s near the hoop. But, there’s limitations there as well. Think about every time Tyrus dunks, it’s usually just him hurling himself at the hoop and throwing it down with both hands. Considering the rare jumping ability he has you would think he would have a wider array of dunks. But no.
Now compare him to an athletically similar player like Amare Stoudamire and you’ll see exactly what I mean. When Amare dunks it’s as if he has control of every part of his body while suspended in air and can finish in a variety of fashions. So if Tyrus can jump as high as Amare then why is he not able to do the same sort of dunks?
Well i’m not in the medical field so I can’t answer this question except to say that it’s obvious, to me at least, that there are certain abilities that Tyrus does NOT possess, which similarly gifted athletes DO possess. And I think that these inefficiencies show up for Tyrus all over the floor, not just in dunking, but that was just one example. I think it is the basic reason why a physical specimen like Tyrus is unable to play with the same fluidity as a player like Amare. Because he can’t.
Ya know what, I know what you mean but I don't think he's uncoordinated...
I believe I’ve read that he took up basketball really late in life (compared to the avg NBAer), and I just don’t think he had a sold grasp of the fundamentals like passing, dribbling, knowing when to NOT goal-tend… Or even a solid understanding of the fundamentals of O or D.
I mean, I think his athleticism has gotten him through to this point, and his lack of basic basketball knowledge is prohibiting him from going any further. How many fundamental dribbling and passing drills do the pros do at this level? I don’t know, but I would guess not many. (Though between BG and TT, maybe we should implement an orange cone weave and pass drill at the end of every practice…)
I know what you mean there,
he has some coordination in his moves, it just seems like the game is moving by way too fast for him. Or he’s just not understanding what is going on in front of him. It could explain why he prefers to shoot so many jumpers, although that’s just a guess.
Is it just me, or does he have a facial expression that screams
“look at me! I’m blatantly defying the world!” when he shoots his jumpshots?
(Also, he shoots on the way down, not at the peak of his jump, causing alot of his shots to clank.)
I definitely agree
there are things he can’t do. The problem? In today’s game, certain players deem it shameful to become a ROLE PLAYER.
Tell me TT couldn’t develop into Rodman reincarnate with better shot-blocking and scoring capabilities.
But no. With most players in today’s game it’s score or bust. Thomas could be a FORCE if he would recognize his strengths and embrace them. He chooses not to.
http://thegettinplace.blogspot.com/
get rid of noah 1st
"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.
I'm pretty confident that's why he hasn't been traded,
but at some point you need to invest your minutes elsewhere. He can be a good piece to get a larger deal done, maybe combined with Noc, Hinrich, or Gooden to acquire a productive big.
agree fully
rec’d and curious to see what your friendly bulls blogger, defender of all things tyrus, has to say to this post
If the Bulls are in fact rebuilding then at least play Tyrus
So you can at least
1. Showcase him for a trade
2. If he’s good enough keep him and develop him further.
3. Y The Hell is Aaron Gray starting if the Bulls are down 25-10 every quarter because of him?
VDN please start Noah or at least Cedric Simmons please!!!!!!
What happens when Kirk comes back?
I wouldnt be surprised...
if given the minutes Noah and Thomas receives….Simmons outperformed then. If that were the case, what would it say about Pax and VDN?
I understand that he will be shopped...
Clear waste of a draft pick that should haunt Pax for what we could have had. I think his ceiling is Hakim Warrick, which is really just aspirational at this point as Warrick is at least average.
An obvious problem with showcasing any of these guys (incl. Hughes, Noah) is that we’re going to rack more bad losses. Another problem is that more minutes only exposes how bad they are. You may get the put-back dunking and shot blocking Tyrus, or you may get the Reggie Miller impersonator Tyrus who plays the perimeter (but no D) and launches bombs (bricks) from 18 feet. Maybe you give him a ton of minutes and hope the other teams’ scouts only show up on a night when he gets a double double.
What's funny about Tyrus is all young players tend to be up and down
2 good games here, 2 bad there etc. Rose is 5 good games, 2 bad, and then 3 good again. Tyrus seems to be 8 bad, 1 good, then 6 bad again. That one good game always seems to be the one that gets your hopes back up, but they occur far, far too infrequently.
Not to mention he continues to struggle despite no one caring about him. What I mean by that, is no team even game plans against him. Even if he started to play well, what would happen once teams actually accounted for him. He just seems way too far away.
He's outta here
I’ve been a big Tyrus supporter and I still think he will become a good player one day but it ain’t gonna happen here. He needs a strong coach like a McMillan who will put a foot in his ass when he messes up.
Tyrus is athletic as hell but he has poor body control. Kemp, Stoudamire and even Rose have total control when they make moves….they can contort themselves but still stay in control. Tyrus can’t, which is why he is always getting offensive fouls.
Problem is, he has no value, so we might as well keep him…at least for blocks and rebounds. What would we even get for him?
For the last year I've thought the same thing,
his value is so low we might as well keep him and see what happens. But it’s now been 15 months of consecutive dropping stock, and the longer you go the more it will keep dropping. At some point, you just need to give it up and let him go. He doesn’t even rebound that well anymore, dropping below 10 rebounds/40minutes this year. I guess he still gets blocks and steals, but that doesn’t seem to justify giving him minutes at 4 for very long.
Oddly enough
I’m a Blazers fan who has looked at Thomas and wondered if he couldn’t stand to be “coached up” a little bit. No knock on Scott Skiles or Vinny Del Negro, but McMillan and his staff have blown me away with their ability to simultaneously develop a LOT of young players and find a way to win. Thomas strikes me as somebody who could be a very talented backup 4 under the right circumstances.
Then again I don’t think the Blazers really have anybody that the Bulls would be interested in (at least anybody that the Blazers view as "expendable")
With all the quality coaching he has gotten the past year and half
I can’t believe he hasn’t improve tremendously!
Coaching
TT had Skiles forcing him to play the low post and pulling him for missing defensive assignments, and most of us felt that was slowing his development. Now VDN lets him play the wing and gives him more consistent minutes, and he still sucks most of the time. Is there another style of coaching we can try?
TT could be a great rebounder, but he stands on the perimeter when a shot goes up. He seems the last one to realize that the other team has the ball and runs about 3/4 speed back on D. I was a big supporter, but he seems to have a very low bball iq. I’m beginning to think he’ll never get it.
by El Toro de Goro on Jan 3, 2009 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
You can't get anything of value right now for Tyrus
Trading him now when he’s on a cheap contract means we see another team milk his potential. It’s a catch-22, they have to play him enough and see him produce to get offers worth admitting he is a bust, but if he plays well, then they aren’t going to trade him. Unless they admit defeat and call Geoff Petrie to say Tyrus is available in a Brad Miller trade, he is staying put.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
This is the only reason I see not to trade Tyrus.
But I’m less confident than you that we can’t get anything for him. If we’re not getting value for him, it makes no sense to bail on him. I think we could maybe get value, though.
How do you expect to boost his value?
If he starts to play better the Bulls will only see it as incentive to keep him, not trade him.
I never said anything about boosting his value.
I just think a still-young and athletic “big” guy who occassionally puts up monster box scores will always have value (i.e., at least some GMs will think they want him), regardless of all the evidence that he lacks the mental toughness or attitude to be a consistently good pro. It’s the reason why so many around here DON’T want to trade him. It’s why I advocated a while ago definitely trying to trade him, before that value (based on his "potential") was eroded by too much evidence of ineffectualness. The value he has now is largely the same value he had when we drafted him, which is not nothing.
TT
only gets the ball wide open at the top of the key, or 18 feet off on the baseline. Every time he actually cuts, or rolls off a pick wide open with his hand up he never gets the ball. When he does however receive the ball in these situations he has been going fairly strong to the hoop where he can finish. When he doesn’t finish he gets to the line where he is a pretty good free throw shooter. I think this guy is still going to need a couple years to develop, IMO it would be foolish to trade him away.
Athleticism can only make up for so much
At 6’7.25" pre-draft, Tyrus was the exact same height as James Jones and Wally Szczerbiak, and we expected him to be a dominant force inside, without a jumpshot or a post move. Being able to jump high doesn’t balance out the size he gives up every game.
TT gets minutes tonight agasint the wolves...
And he’s the only reason we’re still in the game. INSANE stat line.
You don’t trade him. You PLAY him. Trade anyone on the team but Rose, BG and TT.
But did TT show professionalism in blocking those shots?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 3, 2009 10:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Tyrus played great!
and they lost……at home…..to the Timberwolves…and his games was matched by Kevin Love (18 and 12)…and he gave up the offensive rebound/putback from Gomes that sealed the loss
This post seems incredibly stupid after tonight's game.
8 blocks! Tyrus was the only Bull who brought it and he’s been doing it for a while now, but VDN sat him down in the 4th for no reason and blew the game. VDN needs to go and so does Pax… not Tyrus.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 3, 2009 10:05 PM CST reply actions
It's not a stupid post
Tyrus can and will always have these great games, coupled with some awful games. If some people are tired of it, then you can’t blame them. I for one think Tyrus is on the upswing as a player and will be the starting PF by the All-Star break.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 3, 2009 10:21 PM CST up reply actions
the timing of the post
seemed pretty strange – even before this evening
TT starting implies either Noc and Gooden get traded,
or VDN is replaced by a real coach.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 3, 2009 11:37 PM CST up reply actions
News flash... the Bulls were down by 7 going into the fourth
The narrative from the game thread makes it seem like we were kicking ass with Tyrus in there, and VDN blew the game by not having him in there.
Well, that’s not what I heard (I was on the road and listening tonight). What I heard was Tyrus blocking shots, but Kevin Love, Ryan Gomes, and Al Jefferson all pretty much scoring at will.
As usual, the Bulls couldn’t stop anyone from the 4 and 5 spots. Now that’s certainly not all on Tyrus, but it’s partially on him, as well as on the other three bozos they had out there. Failure to defend in the frontcourt wasn’t a fourth quarter issue, it was an issue throughout, and Thomas contributed to that failure.
De gustibus non est disputandum
He wasn't just blocking
He was making good decisions on offense, not rushing anything (like hughes did to help the Twolves pad their lead) and he was active on defense. We were still stopping them there were still times were we were fumbling rebounds and all that nonsense where when Tyrus was in he brought them down. Or even helped and got a block so we could go on the break.
Hughes helped disrupt our offense and blew our chances of taking the lead and the game. I know guys have career nights agianst us but that wasn’t the case tonight.
Yeah, 8 blocks!
… and also a 11 +/. Against the T’Wolves.
It can be misleading
for players like Tayshaun and Peja who aren’t that great but play in great lineups. Against the T’Wolves, if you were -11 in a game, you probably didn’t play well. If you’re looking for a misleading stat, look at blocked shots.
I dunno 8 blocks stops around 16 pts
thats hard to be misleading. Truthfully he kept us in it thats just the truth. I dunno if everyone who says other wise or that we would of definitively lost if he was in or out of the game is looking at it objectively at all.
16 points saved?
Only if the other team shoots 100% are those points “saved”
Are you kidding me?
A guy blocks 8 shots in a game and you still find a way to rip on him? I swear, some of you just plain DON’T WANT Tyrus to succeed in this league. I fear that you all will get your stupid trade and we’ll see TT absolutely explode somewhere else.
But it’s cool, maybe we can get Brad Miller in a deal! YEAH! BRAD MILLER!
(shoots self)
by kwintz on Jan 4, 2009 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
not ripping
8 blocks are great, just correcting the notion that it saved 16 points, relax out there
The blocks were all on close range shots so he probably saved at least 12 pts...
Also, don’t know you you’re not allowed to tell people to relax in blog-world? I did that once and I got a warning;)
my bad
TT saved us from being beaten by an additional 16 points
um, the whole team played poorly and Tyrus played well
it was fairly obvious just from watching the game. That stat is useless. APM is the only plus-minus that matters.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 4, 2009 12:45 AM CST up reply actions
also, the plus-minus of certain lineups is useful, but looking at a single game raw plus-minus
for an individual player is pretty useless. You’re better than that, YaoPau. You know better.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 4, 2009 12:46 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree
Single game +/- doesn’t mean anything regarding how good a player is, but it’s as good a stat as any for determinining how effective they were that game.
-11 as a starter, playing 32 minutes at home vs. the T’Wolves should never happen. And it isn’t like the stats don’t back up the plus/minus. Jefferson, Love, and Smith combined for 30 rebounds (11 offensive) in 72 total minutes. The Bulls entire team grabbed 39 rebounds (11 offensive).
That’s not to say Tyrus had a terrible game. But to look at his 8 block shots and go “showed you!” doesn’t really provide the whole picture.
you are totally missing the point.
gordon and rose were both -12. the people on the floor the most for the losing team are almost always going to have the worst plus/minus. it’s just the way it is. the single game raw plus/minus basically sucks.
Gordon's and Rose's -12 are as unsuprising as Tyrus's -11
Rose isn’t that great now. It’s no fluke he’s last on our team in +/-. He doesn’t shoot a high % and he doesn’t play defense.
Gordon’s good, but he shot 7/21 yesterday. Again, not surprising.
I think your point is good stats = effective game, when that’s not always the case. Like when we lose to the T’Wolves at home.
Isn't that kind of what the plus and minus is saying though?
Whats your point in all this cause its not making much sense to me _
Tyrus' -11 doesn't mean he's a bad player
but just because he had 8 blocks doesn’t mean his 34 minutes helped our team.
that's not to say he's not a bad player
he is. just one game doesn’t prove anything either way
But I didn't just point out his blocks
I mean those were great but what they did are impossible to see on the stat sheet. Both Al and Love approached the game differently; the team was more energized. Most of those were layups so he stopped around 16pts. (most on the break too cause guys were turning it over and missing shots)
He was making good decisions just all around pretty much. Moving without the ball and taking it too the basket a good amount of times. My only point was that him playing like that and not playing until around the 2 minute mark was a horrible decision. If we have him instead of Hughes we’d of had everyone at their natural position and the way he was playing probably the best opportunities in the game. Especially since it was see sawing but yeah I mean I don’t expect him to come out blazing after this. But it makes me skeptical about VDN. And I still think he should get some consistent minutes by default because of who we’re working with instead of going small ball so often.
Rose
shoots a very decent FG% for a PG, especially a rookie PG.
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
What about the 15 points, 8 rebounds, 2 steals, 4 assists, 0 TOs
and that he was going to the basket enough to get 7 FTA?
Why is it so hard to admit that he had an excellent game?
Also
Its not particularly fair to blame Jefferson’s rebounds on TT when Jefferson is a C and not TT’s man. And TT was out of the game the majority of the time Love was in. So basically you are blaming TT for Smith’s 4 rebounds.
Tyrus was in for all
but four of Love’s minutes.
Well I wasn't trying to say showed you or rub anything in your face
But its just the truth thats what happened in the game. The plus and minus is too black and white sometimes you need something more detailed.
Tyrus impact on the game changed the approach of their bigs and got us more opportunities on offense whether it be a block a steal…running the floor…not forcing shots etc.
I just think trying to say other wise is more opinion agianst fact.
a lot of times
the best player on the floor for the losing team has the worst plus-minus, because they are on the floor the most.
I think Tyrus read this post before the game
Showed you guys.
"When I have the ball, I experiment." #5
two years too late.
Wow the Bulls have become the Clippers!
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 3, 2009 11:05 PM CST up reply actions
Well, not really...
if he wants to permanently turn it on from her on out, fantastic. It’s just doubtful he’ll keep doing this the rest of the yr and that’s the problem.
I love how everyone wants to roll out the red carpet because he had 8 blocks in a loss to the T'wolves.
Other than that he had 15 an 8 in 32 minutes. His best game of the year basically. I think Adrian Griffin put in a few 15 and 8s with the Bulls.
He needs to "show us"
on a consistant basis to part of this teams future. I like TT but some days he just looks best sitting on the bench.
Ride the pine for some minor transgression
of a rule in the Bulls handbook printed in 4-point font.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 3, 2009 11:38 PM CST up reply actions
I was at the game
Rose and Tyrus played great. Not only that, but Tyrus played with more intensity and energy than anyone out there and seemed to truly enjoy it (not the loosing part, but the playing hard part). Tyrus has been putting together some solid performances for a few weeks now. He’s back in my good graces. The rest of the team though, trade ’em all and build around Rose-Tyrus.
I think Tyrus should go, but
in fairness, you’re right, he’s put up strong numbers for the past month. Since the start of December he’s averaging 10 points, 5.5 boards, and 1.5 blocks on 50% shooting in just 23mpg.
Well,
I don’t trust VDN. At all.
I could probably throw him like half a foot, but I don’t trust him that much.
Coaching change first! Someone who isn’t retarded! Please!
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
THE PAXSON QUESTION
The bulls have many problems, Tyrus is just stuck in a rut. Normally you would give Tyrus a clear and obtainable objective (something like box out, rebound, no fouls, no jump shots) and if he achieves those objectives you can add more. However if he doesnt then you have to drop him (either by trade or to the d-league). He doesnt seem to be given any direction which is evident when you watch him play. The bulls need somebody who can solve these problems. Someone who is respected and i dont think Paxson is that person. However, this season has been bad for both pax and vdn. The injuries have really killed us. We started better than normal (thanks to rose) without a full line up. Im sure it could of been better if all players were healthy and most likely could of got a trade done by now if all were healthy. I just hope Paxson can solve our problems and get us back to a team on the rise once again. If he cant by seasons end then he should be sacked (provided there is a suitable replacement).
Untill you give TT 30+ minutes Consistantly
For around 10 games in a row threads like these are completely pointless. I have a feeling his inconsistencies, are strongly based around his inconsistent minutes. There are only 2 games this season where he played 30+ minutes and didn’t put up 15,8,2 numbers.
34 minutes VS Dallas = 8 pts, 8 reb, 2 steals, 2 blocks… .400% FG
31 minutes VS LAL = 9 pts, 3 assists, 5 reb, 3 blocks, 2 steals… .500% FG
and even these games he still managed to decently fill the stat sheet.
Any other game he played 30+ minutes he stacked up the stat sheet with close to double double numbers every game. with multiple steals/blocks and close to no TO’s.
It’s the same situation as last year… Give the man his damn minutes!!!!
Right, except
The Bulls are 2-6 when Tyrus plays 30+ minutes.
And also, the reason he plays 30 minutes in games is because he racked up big numbers in the first 20 minutes – VDN has an annoying habit of playing the hot hand. That doesn’t mean 30 minutes for Tyrus = automatic 15 and 8.
This is where I don't think it always tells the story
Tyrus may be turning it on when others aren’t and we just simply lose. Also those games he put up good numbers hes probably averaging around 15pts and 8 rebounds.
But another thing about those games like at Detroit or Charlotte etc he didn’t play down the stretch.
Exactly,
it’s not Tyrus plays well because he gets big minutes, it’s Tyrus plays big minutes because he plays well.
Do you really think VDN doesn’t want him to play well and to succeed. Do you think he doesn’t realize TT was a top draft pick. Do you think Skiles, Pax, Boyland, Bickerstaff, and Del Harris all don’t think the same thing?? He’s not playing because his inconsistency is off the charts.
What he did last game is play with a lot more fire (I know, make passion joke here). When you ask David Thorpe, his trainer, he says the hardest thing for a player to learn is “beast it” on a consistent basis. So if he picks up the hardest thing for a player to do he can be a 15/8 conributor….woo hoo.
But can a guy always start out on fire I think he'd need some consistency with minutes
We’ve seen guys play horrible on defense and offense and stay in the game.
Even last night Hughes stayed in he did a couple of things well but then disrupted the offense. While Tyrus was waiting in the wings to get his triple double but more importantly actually impact the game.
Vinny does put in the hot hand but when Thomas does have on he still doesn’t have him in late in games even with his 30+ minutes.
I wouldn’t call that consistent but also who are we putting in his place if hes not playing.
I don't think he needs to be on fire for more minutes
but he has to at least be playing well, otherwise VDN will go with a vet. He just broke 40% fg shooting, it’s not like he’s lighting it up and being held back.
I see what your saying
Thats probably another reason I look at the coaching staff for encouraging him to shoot. Though its on him to make good decisions.
Its just sometimes when he has decent games he doesn’t get to play in the important stretches of the games. Like last night or even his other 30+ minute games except maybe a 1 or 2.
Tyrus has actually gotten consistent minutes twice
See March of last season. And then see the first 9 games of this season, arguably the worst 9 of his career.
I should note
his 10 games in March averaged out pretty well, but to say he was inconsistent is a big understatement.
You cant blame TT
For losses that’s absurd if he is out their producing and other people aren’t how is that his fault? People are expecting way to much from this guy. What about all the guys who have been playing 4- 5+ years getting paid and not producing.
How come their aren’t Luol Deng era needs to be over threads, or Andres Nocioni era needs to be over threads. This thread is a load of shit.
by GoldMidwest27 on Jan 4, 2009 3:28 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
You obviously haven't been reading this site if you dont think
there are anti Deng/Noc posts.
I agree
I just hope he does it before he is dumped somewhere else….
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
Is it a "coincidence"?
Bad starts, falling behind in the first quarter
AND
Aaron Gray starting?
If it IS broke, FIX it, Vinnie!!!
Why we should not dump TT:
1) He may never be a shawn kemp but every now and then he shows he can be much better
2) He is still very young
3) He was coached by crazy-Skiles and rookie-Del Negro. I would rather give up on Vinny DN before I quit on TT (unless we get something valuable)
4) His salary is budget friendly right now
So we should only trade him for something good. He may not be a new Kemp but he is no garbage either
You listed three players that Thomas has been compared to,
Kemp, Marion, and Stoudemire. I’ve always argued against the Marion and Stoudemire comparisions, but I am in some ways responsible for the Shawn Kemp comparison here. I’ve seen that comparison referenced many times recently by the anti-Tyrus camp here.
The Kemp comparison remains a good one even if Tyrus has failed to live up to that standard.
*They’ve been statistically similar over their 1st two seasons.
*They’re similar in experience, raw ability, and temperament. The basketball I.Q. of a young Kemp in no way dwarfs Tyrus’s.
It also is still valid because the focus of that comparison was always geared to looking at how Tyrus could develop. They came into the league with similar potential in similar situations after their rookie year. Kemp never averaged more than 18 minutes in any month as a rookie.
The nurture side of their development has been extremely different the last two seasons. In Kemp’s 2nd seasons, Bernie Bickerstaff moved to the Sonics front office. His assistant coach took over the head coach position, that assistant was K.C. Jones and his 67+ career winning. Jones had won two championships as a coach and taken two different franchises to the NBA finals in addition to his 8 as a player took over the head coaching position. In Kemp’s 3rd seasons Jones was fired, despite having an 18 and 18 record, because he wouldn’t add George Karl to his coaching staff. So the Sonics GM fired Jones and hired George Karl. Kemp also had a true veteran mentor on the team in Michael Cage. Good coaches, a GM actually in charge, and some actual veteran mentors. Give Tyrus that and I’m convinced he develop into a pretty good player. He’s already at least as effective as Drew Gooden in his minutes.
by Scotter on Jan 5, 2009 3:41 PM CST reply actions 6 recs
You're missing 3 big differences
1)Kemp was essentially a high schooler when he started in the NBA. He was about the same age, but he played virtually no basketball for 2 years following high school due to his various transgressions. As a result, he came in much more raw. He was a top recruit, unlike Tyrus who only came onto scouts radar after half of a good college season.
2)Kemp’s numbers on the offensive end were significantly greater. Scoring, Ortg etc. all significantly favor Kemp.
3)Tyrus doesn’t solve one of the Bulls main issue, interior scoring. While TT and Gooden are equal in a stat like PER, Gooden gets his by scoring and rebounding. Tyrus gets his by being mediocre in several other areas to catch up on the PER. The Bulls need as much 4/5 scoring as they can get, TT doesn’t really help them achieve that. That’s the problem of keeping both he and Noah with big minutes on the roster.
1)So Kemp is both much more raw than Tyrus
and a top recruit? He was or the other. Claiming he’s both is grasping at straws. Kemp also only missed one season of basketball.
2) The gap on the offensive end wasn’t that big after their rookie seasons. And no one, especially me ever claimed Thomas would be as good on that end of the floor as Kemp. That was never the expectation.
3) If you think Gooden is even part of the answer to the Bulls interior scoring issues, you’re simply wrong. Tyrus catches up by posting strong steal and block rates, and getting to FT line at an impressive rate, not by being medicore. The belief that Bulls problem this season have anything to do with the scoring from the 4/5 position is also wrong. Tyrus helps this team where it really needs the help, on defense. He’ll make stupid plays on defense, but he’s a net positive on that end.
Right
1)Kemp didn’t play any higher level basketball other than high school. I doubt AAU was even developed in the 80s the way it is today. So yes, he was far less prepared for the NBA than Tyrus was. I don’t know if that fits your definition of raw.
2)The gap is quite large, Kemp put up 18 and then 20 pts/36min in his second and third year on 55 and 57% true shooting respectively. Tyrus is at 13 and 13 pts/36 with a 49 and 49% true shooting. I consider that a significant gap. It shows in their Ortgs
Kemp first 3 years:
103, 109, 113
TT first 3 years:
95, 101, 97
3)No I don’t Gooden is an answer, but for this current team this season, he holds more value in terms of winning games. The problem you run into with Tyrus is how to pair him. He has value as a defensive presence/undersized 4. But that means you have to pair him with a bigger, more offensively gifted center. Those are the hardest players to find. Look at his most successful year, LSU, when he had Big Baby there to distract defenses and score inside. TT probably isn’t a long term fit with Noah unless you find a true starting center and use Noah as a 3rd big.
My point is even if Tyrus performs at a reasonable level, he doesn’t pair easily with other bigs. He certainly wouldn’t seem to fit well with Bosh or Amare. Unless you plan to play both at center. Or find someone else. Is Yao Ming available? As you can see, the options are limited even if you assume TT turns it around which to me is a big assumption.
My point was that the offensive gap was small after their rookie year.
if you read what I wrote. The context they were in completely changed after their rookie year, after that Kemp played for a functioning organization and the Bulls fell apart. The ORtg gap in their rookie years is largely due to a 4% difference in their offensive rebounding rate.
Tyrus needs a big center, but not necessarily an offensively gifted one. He needs to be paired with a solid player that can reliably handle his defensive assignment and make a jumpshot. Brad Miller would be awesome, but someone as mediocre as Rasho Nesterovic would be a huge help at this point.
Largely due to offensive rebounds?
Did you not see the huge scoring and ts% gap, or fg% gap? That didn’t heavily influence the difference? TT shoots 42% and 40% the last 2 years. In years 2 and 3 Kemp shot 51 and 50%. Statistical comparison over right there.
How can you say they are similar when Kemp has shown he can score significantly more points per minute at a signifcantly higher efficiency? The offensive rebounding gap is small in comparison to points/min and efficiency.
So the Bulls will be ok with a Rasho/TT frontcourt? Or even a Brad Miller/TT frontcourt. When are they winning titles with that grouping? I hope you have all-stars at the 1/2/3 positions to help make up the difference.
The point I’m trying to make is long term they would need an equally effective center who is as good or better than TT if they want to win a title. He doesn’t match well with the team’s ability to add players. Adept scoring centers are difficult to find. It’s much easier to find offensive 4s and pair them with defensive minded centers. Not to mention the 2010 plan (the next best opportunity to add an all-star big) seems to involve high profile 4s.
No go back and look for the words ROOKIE YEAR. This is twice
now you’ve argued against something I didn’t say.
Also, points per min has absolutely NO IMPACT on ORtg. It’s purely a pure possession statistic, which means usage isn’t involved at all in calculating it. Therefore offensive rebounding plays a huge role for bigs. Look at Gray and Noah’s ORtg then look at their offensive rebounding%. Now look for the words ROOKIE YEAR again and reread what I wrote. This has gotten even more ridiculous.
Would Brad Miller and Rasho make this team significantly better than if they weren’t playing freaking Drew Gooden and Aaron Gray at center? Hell yes. Championship? This team isn’t winning a championship in the next two years period. If Bosh actually signs, which I view as a long shot then the Bulls can sign and trade Tyrus then if he’s playing well enough to have value. Outside of a 2010 miracle, Tyrus is the only chance this team has to be a championship contender so it’s pointless to kick him to the curb after a month where he’s played pretty well. That’s the truth as sad as it is.
Ok fine, but if your point was about rookie year,
where again are the similarities following that? They are clearly vastly different offensive players when factoring in production, do you deny that? Is your point he’s our defensive big of the future?
The concept that the team would be significantly better with Brad Miller or Rasho over Aaron Gray/Drew Gooden doesn’t really hold up. Whatever marginal gains they make up for in offense (and I do mean marginal), they would lose in rebounding.
Timing doesn’t work for the sign Bosh, S&T Tyrus idea. He has a cap hold until he signs. Bosh is a free agent at the same time. So unless you can get wayyyyy under the cap to absorb TT’s cap hold of 15.5 million, you would have to tell Bosh to hold on a minute before signing while you shopped Tyrus around in the middle of the biggest free agent frenzy in league history. That’s asking an awful lot.
You are correct in saying as currently constructed, Tyrus is the only chance the Bulls have of becoming a championship contender. Unfortunately, the only chance I have of becoming a millionaire in the next 72 hours is by playing the lottery. The point is Tyrus isn’t worth the effort and is better off moved elsewhere, preferably this February. Waiting for the lottery to hit doesn’t happen very often.
Scotter
As a Kings fan, the day the Bulls take Brad Miller away, I’ll be sending Jerry Reinsdord “I love you very much” letters for as long as Brad stays a Bull. Maybe longer.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
less prepared for the NBA?
tyrus only played organized ball his junior and senior years in high school, and was a red shirt freshman. he didn’t play in AAU either.
Umm yes he did play AAU
He redshirted a year but was still in a college program. Then he played at a major university for one year. Kemp did nothing while being kicked out of school.
sorry, that's true
i was thinking of AAU for younger kids.
still, tyrus only had TWO YEARS of basketball, 3 if you include his 1 year at LSU, and wasn’t a top recruit out of high school while kemp was. i’d say you can’t really make the argument that tyrus was soooo much more nba ready when kemp was all over the radar as a high schooler.
You don't think one year (2 if you count redshirting) at a big time college program makes a difference?
You should check with Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony etc. These players all admitted there’s a huge gap and playing a year of college ball eased the transition greatly.
well, right
but the fact is that in high school tyrus was light years behind kemp, so the 1 year of playing college ball only helped him to even catch up.
oh
and i’m not saying that playing college ball doesn’t help. but again, tyrus was far more raw than kemp was in high school, so that even if he surpassed him in being more nba ready by the time they were drafted, the difference couldn’t be that much. i admit i’m too young to remember kemp as a rookie.
The key is that Kemp performed at a significantly better rate than
TT in his early years. The biggest knock on why TT isn’t performing is because he wasn’t ready for the NBA, too raw. I was trying to emphasize Kemp was even less experienced. If you think it’s more equal, than fine, but I just wanted to wipe away the excuse TT needs 5 years before becoming a good player. Good players tend to do it right away or not at all. You can guess where I think TT fits.
The biggest knock on Tyrus isn't that he's raw.
It’s that his career has been entirely mismanaged by the Chicago Bulls management. Does anyone seriously still think that Aldridge would be doing what he’s doing now in Chicago? Do you think Kemp would have been a success if he was drafted by the Bulls? Kemp was just as stupid as Tyrus, and I’m old enough to remember what Kemp was like as a young player.
And Aldridge still isn't even that good....had Tyrus been used properly the gap between them would be pretty close
He’s playing better than Tyrus, but given the way Skiles wanted Tyrus in the post all the time, He would have forced LMA to play the same way when it’s clear he’s at his best shooting midrange jumpers and occasionally doing a fadeaway move.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 6, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
I don't denounce the pick,
just agree it’s time to move on.
So let me ask you this,
if the Bulls drafted Brandon Roy, and Portland drafted Tyrus Thomas, would Thomas be an all-star right now and Roy a waste of minutes.
Had the Bulls drafted Wade instead of Hinrich in ’04, would he be just average? Would Hinrich have a PER of 30+ in Miami right now?
Players determine their own fate. There is some team management that can help, but stars don’t become horrible because of bad management.
If you can't get the difference
between the development of guards like Wade and Roy that both had extensive experience leading their college teams and dominate the ball, and forwards and centers then this discussion is even more pointless than I thought.
And this is a big pile of absolutist bullshit. Maybe there’s 5% of players at the most that are bad management proof. It’s a significant factor for everyone else, especially front court players.
“Players determine their own fate. There is some team management that can help, but stars don’t become horrible because of bad management.”
So Shawn Kemp for example
got kicked out of college, produced multiple children, and ate his way out of the NBA. But the significant leadership in Seattle made him a great player? Great players produce no matter the environment. It’s the average players where you can see fluctuations.
I know this could turn into a nature vs. nurture argument. But if you honestly believe Tyrus would be an all-star in some other city right now you’re delusional.
He doesn’t have it in himself to get better right now. No Bulls management should change that. Players developed in this system that you believe is so horrible, Curry had his best years here. Chandler developed. Not to mention Hinrich, Gordon, Deng. To put it all on the Bulls is an excuse for Tyrus.
As I said above continuing
this is pointless.
by Scotter on Jan 6, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
you have created a nice cocoon for Tyrus. If he plays well, you knew it all along. If he doesn’t it’s the Bulls fault. He was destined for greatness until the big bad Paxsdorf came along.
The odds of him making it as an above average player is so diminished in my book, I prefer to move on. You don’t. Agree to disagree.
That is the biggest bunch of shit I have heard in a long time.
The biggest knock on Tyrus has nothing to do with the organization…thats a knock on the organization…you can find plenty of knocks on Tyrus’ individual game, but lets not project the organizational woes onto a player that is developing…slowly.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
They also brought in Benoit Benjamin
who despite being thoroughly mediocre, gave them a big body in the middle so Kemp could fly around and block shots.
The Bulls have more or less completely struck out in doing this, thereby making Tyrus’ on court job more difficult than what Kemp was expected to do.
De gustibus non est disputandum
Hey Scotter,
Have you sent your résumé to JR in case Pax resigns or is reassigned?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 5, 2009 11:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You mean those players
earned minutes early in the career. Like by playing hard, not ditching practice, etc.
Wait...
do you actually know that? Or are you assuming.
They all played pretty similarly year one (notably they all automatically got more minutes than Tyrus before they got substantially more minutes in their second year. He is in the starting of his third year and to act as if his struggles are somehow deterring the team so much that he needs to be moved is preposterous.
This whole thread is dramatic and alarmist.
Since it is not clear,
I was referring to assumptions about missed practice.
You don't remember
Tyrus skipping practice last year? He told his teammates that he would see them the day after the next and didn’t show up for practice the next day.
Can you resist it's luscious Americanized Chinese cuisine?
Boyl@# probably took his PBJ sandwich away from him.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 6, 2009 10:28 PM CST up reply actions
I was referring
to the other players, since he was referring to the other players…I actually remember an Amare practice ditch, hopefully I can find it.
To put it differently
My suspicion is that Tyrus is a complete pud, but I don’t think he deters the team or anything. He’s a benign tumor, but not malignant, like, for example, the situation with Larry Hughes.
De gustibus non est disputandum
Agreed
Hughes is a MUCH bigger problem, but the quicker the Bulls can move on without Tyrus the better.
Why? You've get to give a single reason other than "he won't be good".
Since no one can predict the future, and moving Nocioni and/or Gooden or letting Gooden expire gets rid of the minutes issue, you have no legitimate reason to want him gone right now.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Yes, because I value winning now.
He doesn’t help winning now. And I believe it’s tough to develop two bigs at the same time. I tried to find a scenario where two bigs developed together and it worked. I couldn’t come up with any, although I only thought about it for a few minutes.
I’d rather see TT moved, and then have a veteran move in to play with Noah and Gooden as a bigs rotation. They need to pick between Noah and TT, and I’ve obviously made my choice.
Well, that's a reason. So thank you.
But I definitely disagree that Nocioni or Gooden playing Thomas’s minutes helps the team win more. Because, as you-and many others-said, you’re not going to get anything good for trading Thomas.
And if you trade Hinrich for a good big, how much will it help the team win? 1 game? 2? 3? How valuable is that?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Well ideally you could go Hinrich, TT, etc.
Or Gooden, TT to give an expiring plus a prospect.
I think the wins are greater than you think. Any big producing average offense could help this team. Drew Gooden helped last night. Imagine if the Bulls had two bigs who can score!
Imagine if the Bulls had one big who could defend!
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
I can not enter into Thomas
but from my perspective, I see him as being Josh Smith caliber with similar attitude.
If we look at his game logs it becomes evident that his play in games where he gets 30+ minutes—and I realize this is an arbitrary cutoff, but one that is required—he does consistently better:
13.1 points
7.6 rebounds
.488 from the field
1.7 steals
2.6 blocks
in about 34 minutes per over 9 games
Obviously the sample size is hardly scientific, but the indication is clear that this situation isn’t cut and dry. I do not doubt that Thomas hasn’t been a perfect teammate but if we think about his prior immersion in the system of basketball teaching, we can recognize that in him there is yet not a reproduction system for a basketball ideology.
To make a theoretical point, in Ideology and the State, Althusser establishes the system of ideological state apparatuses—church, education, labor, etc.—in which inscribed in their teaching systems is a reproduction of production—i.e. the requirements to continue whatever system after those participants in it leave the system. He points specifically to the educational model which shows this relationship clearly; process of education requires a submission to the system of learning and being taught, to find in a Subject a centering outside of which we reference everything and must submit ourselves to recognizing as truth in all internal review or external perception. If we supplant this educational teaching system with a basketball apparatus—and it definitely is so as it both has teaching and industry—we see that it makes sense that a student only recently immersed in such a system has not yet learned a submission completely.
In truth if we look at it in such a light we must first question our investment into asking for such a submission, but if we can somehow get past the requirement of subordination we still must be patient for this submission.
We must relinquish knee jerk responses when committing ourselves to young growing (and shrinking) team. The Bulls benefit in no way moving Tyrus for the nothing he is currently worth, especially when he has not yet been tested nor has he actually done anything worth vilifying him in the way people on this board often do.
Poor way to play it
he only plays in the 30+ minute games when he’ playing well. If he played 30 minutes a night, you’d see some like the Boston game (2-17 or whatever). But since VDN pulls him right away when he doesn’t play well, it doesn’t show up.
I agree with your Josh Smith idea. I see that as TT’s now best case scenario. If everything works out, he will be Josh Smith. And we’ll have to commit salary to him in 2010 when Josh Smith with this current roster wouldn’t be winning titles.
You're right they don't have to
but why not? If they win the FA lottery and land Wade/Amare/Bosh, then the point is moot. But what happens if they don’t. Suddenly the next option is committing a large sum to a player who isn’t putting you over the top.
And I got off the topic a bit here, the main point was I don’t think he’s getting to that level. If (HUGE IF) he even got to that Josh Smith level, does he really turn your team around.
Maybe not, but what's your other option?
Is the player you’re trading for going to put them over-the-top? Trade Hinrich and Thomas for Brad Miller? So you won 2 or 3 more games this year and 5 or 6 more next year (I don’t believe Brad Miller adds that many wins, btw)… And you’re in the same exact spot. Without the chance, however small, that Thomas finally pans out.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Oh, and the King suck.
I take nothing from playing against them as any evidence of anything. ;-P
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
That's an insult to "suck" to say the KIngs suck
Putrid is a better description for this group right now.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
But those wins
and playing with veteran players are what helps the other young guys develop. Playing Noah with other vets who understand the game will make him a better player. And allowing Rose to play with a guy who can truly finish on the pick-and-pop will increase his pg growth, not to mention statistics.
Tyrus needs better player coaches!
The bulls are too cheap to hire good player coaches to develop these players, other teams have hall of famer players coming back to help their young players develop.
Tyrus is actually highly skilled,
he just thinks too much. I think Luol Deng has the same problem this year. They both worked extensively on certain techniques over the summer with David Thorpe, adding new aspects to their respective games, and are trying to force them into their play and personality on the court this year. I think Lu was starting to relax and rely on his instincts more before he went down again. Tyrus always impresses me with his various dribbling skills, driving with either hand, his shooting stroke, and trying moves on people. He has mentioned how much he works on his game, and the personal pride he takes in that – he knows he can be really good. As frantic as the coaches and media seem to be with regard to his every move on and off the court, i’m not surprised he’s always so anxious, though he does seem noticeably relaxed since being called out and having the concussion problem. If everyone would just relax and let the young guys learn from the bumps of extended playing time this year, i think rose gordon deng thomas and noah would be alright by the end of the year and going forward, though a talented low post scorer who’s at least a legit 6-10 with big hands and a calm demeanor is needed to complete a big man trio with the other two. let the young 5 learn and lose this year, hope for griffin or monroe, or try to steal villanueva.
Tyrus was a PG through much of his development
We really are stuck with a guard in a forward’s body. Tyrus grew, what, 5-7 inches between graduating high school and his breakout season at LSU after one redshirt year.
I see lots of standing around and watching from Tyrus which is an awful lot like a guard that never has the ball in their hands.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 11, 2009 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
true, but that's a big stretch
this is his 3rd season…he’s not supposed to know how to play like a forward by now? Plus, it wasn’t like he played guard at LSU.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
Tyrus Thomas Talks BCS Championship and Joakim's Mouth
Tyrus Thomas is blogging for Mouthpiecesports.com He checks in periodically…He is and always will be an LSU Tigers Fan…but find out why even he is surprised who he cheered for Thursday night.
Neither Tyrus nor Noah is worth a damn, nor is playing basketball their first priority. They both continually put forth little effort on the floor. Why is this so hard for everyone? I am sick and tired of excuses for these busts? Who else is sick and tired of settling for mediocrity (or less)?
The Bulls will not make the playoffs this year and will be in the lottery, once again.
Dump them both.
"It's not how you enter your sport, it's how you exit." - Dr. J
http://myspace.com/eme0916
This thread is almost offensive...
It doesn’t take a genius to see the impact Tyrus has had on this team over the past several games. Let these morons sit around and trash him now; we can just save all of these idiotic comments and bring them back out in a couple of years after Tyrus is playing an important part in a Chicago Bulls team that is competing for championships.
What do you guys want to do? Let him rot on the bench and play Gooden and Noce, the black holes? Aaron Gray? Seriously? No, you want to package him with Hinrich for a “great big man”! Well let me tell you something: The truly “great” big men ARE NOT ON THE BLOCK, NOR WILL THEY EVER BE! Kaman is okay, but he’s an injury waiting to happen! Camby is old! Brad Miller is…SERIOUSLY? BRAD MILLER? Yeah, let’s give up on our 22 year old 4th pick (really our second pick) who is showing great strides towards becoming a special player in this league! GREAT IDEA!
Just give it up. You’re ragging on the second or third most important player on this team. Rose, Deng, Tyrus—-these are the guys we will be moving forward with, along with one of Hinrich/Gordon. NOT Drew Gooden. NOT Noce. NOT Kaman. NOT Miller. Tyrus Thomas is the future 4 on this team for years to come, and I am extremely excited to be able to continue watching him improve over the next seven years.
by kwintz on Jan 16, 2009 11:57 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
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