Report: Portland talking to an East team for PG and SF
[From the fanshots. If it's Nocioni: good. If it's Deng: bad -ed.]
The deal would involve Raef's contract and 2 players in the Blazers rotation, but no starters would be involved.
over 3 years ago
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more likely Hinrich and Noc than Hinrich and Deng. Bulls aren't dumping Deng
he’s been playing great
by fundamentallysound on Jan 29, 2009 10:14 PM CST reply actions
Exciting
I hope it’s us…..just cuz we need a trade.
Perhaps our SF is Larry Hughes…as he has played some SF….one could hope…
Hey,
he hits the big shots! Portland would be getting a STEAL.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Is there any real source here other than a message board?
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
Jason Quick made the statements on a radio show or tv show from the sounds of it. He's the POR beat writer.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 12:19 AM CST up reply actions
So that would be...
No link. Okay…then I will consider this as reliable as Rumor Press.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 30, 2009 12:47 AM CST up reply actions
Thanks.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
huh?
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 8:30 AM CST up reply actions
Did Ben Gordon spill your coffee?
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
Also, I suspect this deal is more likely Felton and Gerald Wallace than Kirk and Deng or Noc
Felton and Wallace is more likely to make them a contender than Kirk and Noc (I don’t buy us sending Deng at all).
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 12:20 AM CST reply actions
I know bobcats make bad moves
But you think they would give up the 2 best starters on the team for blazer backups?
Larry Brown HATES G-Wallace and Augustin is their PG of the future.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 12:38 AM CST up reply actions
I think he's obligated by oath for the Dean Smith Cult to like all former Tar Heels
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
That deal would be tough
With both Felton and Wallace injured.
How about AI and Prince from Detroit?
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 30, 2009 12:28 AM CST up reply actions
Nah, AI would destroy Portland's chemistry and doesn't fit well with Roy
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 12:30 AM CST up reply actions
Stuckey and Prince?
Oh yeah.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 2:29 AM CST up reply actions
No way
does Detroit give up Stuckey. My understanding from Pistons fanatics is that the organization has made it clear he’s their future. They just traded away a Finals MVP and multiple-time All-Star so that he could develop.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Yeah..it was a joke
Stuckey and Prince are the two guys least likely to be traded on Detroit’s roster.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, ok... I was wondering... :)
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
But the punctured lung deal...
and Augustin is hurt at the moment. I guess this would have to depend on how crazy Larry Brown really is.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Wallace has a collapsed lung
I don’t think he’s going anywhere anytime soon.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jan 30, 2009 9:09 AM CST up reply actions
This may not happen
Gerald Wallace went down with a cracked rib and a collapsed lung, they don’t know when he would be back
also, can I just say that if Pax manages to make this deal and dump both Hinrich and Noc's longterm contracts
for the superior and cheaper and shorter-deal-ed Outlaw (relative to Noc), and the more appropriate backup to Rose (Sergio for 10 mins a game), then I will take back every bad thing I ever said about him.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 12:44 AM CST reply actions
forgot to mention... he would be getting the most coveted expiring deal in the league. It would be such a coup.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 12:45 AM CST up reply actions
Good for Portland, then.
This is about making the Bulls better, not worrying about the Blazers. If they were in our division, maybe it’s a concern, but they’re not even in our conference.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 30, 2009 7:24 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
agreed. and I don't think Hinrich and Noc makes them that much better (not enough to beat LA)
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 9:30 AM CST up reply actions
yeah, but who are they realistically going to get
to get them to that level?
i think hinrich could fit well on the blazers, and even noc could really fit in on a good team. he just has run his course with the bulls.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
I agree.
Lots of teams are afraid of Blazers already and likely not willing to pull trigger with them in a trade that will make them better.
I think the Bulls may just be involved in this deal. They have to move some pieces.
Press the trade button. At this point no one will be missed!
Source
http://blog.oregonlive.com/blazers/2009/01/jason_quick_chat_1.html
bit after 23 minutes mark
I'm sorry...
I just don’t see the Blazers dealing for either Hinrich Noc or Hinrich Deng. I don’t see why they would want to tie up so much long term money when they are going to have to start paying their core big money in the near future. It just doesn’t make sense for the Blazers. But all that being said, if we can get rid of both Hinrich and Noc in one deal, I will start thinking Paxson is competent
Because
Hinrich
Roy
Deng
LMA
Oden
+ a solid bench has the look of a perennial title contender and Portland will field an $85mil title team
Exactly.
I got rather frustrated reading the idiotic possible trades that were being suggested in the comments to that podcast. They have no idea of the value of Kirk and Deng or Noc on a good team. Our guys keep leaving Chicago and playing well because we keep getting talented players or really good role players, but we don’t use them correctly. Or, we don’t have they role defined. When Skiles was here, we had an identity. We were scrappy, we worked harder than the other guy and we played defense. For awhile, it worked. It’s just sad that we can only see Bulls players fit well into a system if they go somewhere else. But it is because they actually go to a system. Right now our guys are playing YMCA ball. It’s really ugly. Kirk is struggling right now, no doubt. But he is the type of player that excels with good players in a defined role. He isn’t going to run and gun and create on the fly. He is smart. The son of a coach. He picks up plays and defensive schemes very well. Why do you think he got so much PT on the Olympic team even though they had Chris Paul and Deron Williams. He is the perfect role player. He knows his job and he does it. I think he would be considered a top point guard on the Blazers.
Now, I don’t think there is anyway we are sending Deng in this trade. It would have to be Noc. No matter what BaB thinks of him, he has value around the league. He is the guy that no one else likes to play against and every championship team needs someone who will make a really hard foul sometimes or do a things that are a little dirty. Robert Horry, James Posey, Bruce Bowen, Raja Bell. I’m not saying Noc is great or that he hasn’t lost a step, because I think he has, but many GMs think he would be valuable. Which is fine with me. I say Kirk and Noc and let’s not stop there. Hopefully we can keep making more trades.
by Unrealcity on Jan 30, 2009 1:46 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Noc does have value
Lets hope Pax understands that b4 its to late, its better to trade a player too early, rather than too late
It looks like a title contender in a way that
Rose
Hinrich
Deng
Tyrus
Noah
+ the Bulls bench doesn’t.
No bangers down low.
You’ve got defenders, open court players, finesse bigs, jump shooters, and finishers, but no bangers down low. Oden can’t do it yet. LMA may not be physical enough. Plus, who comes in when Oden gets into foul trouble? I think perennial title contender may be overstating it a little bit.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
haha
No bangers down low? Oden and Przybilla have been in the top 10 of rebounding percentage all year. Oden has served Amare, LeBron, and Garnett this year. He doesn’t back down from anybody.
Oh yeah, Przybilla.
He certainly is a banger. Forgot about him. (shrug)
Still, to annoint that team of those five starters and a solid bench, as reprisal did, a “perennial contender” is a stretch. At the present time. Who knows, maybe next year Oden becomes a force to be reckoned with night in and night out.
All I’m saying is that you put reprisal’s “perennial contender” team against the actual, current contenders, like a healthy Lakers squad, the Celts, and the Magic, and that front line gets pounded. Even if Joel P. comes in off the bench and does a solid job.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
uh its not about the current contenders this year anyways
Ya, you need to get a back up PF. Thats a very attainable piece, your talking about adding 1 guy to the rotation. Use the MLE, or sign the type of vet guy every contending team is rumored to be looking at mid season. Plus they’d still have assets left after the trade. If you assume some modest growth from Greg Oden and find that guy your looking at on of the better teams in the league. All those other teams have plenty of issues coming up in the next few years too. Sure they dont look like a lock to knock off the presumed Laker teams(how much more physical are they than that Portland team?) every year but theyre still a contender.
Any kind of trade not involving Derrick Rose is fine with me
Any.
when are we going to add a 7th championship?
by broseleay301 on Jan 30, 2009 1:28 AM CST reply actions
Bucks?
Charlie V and Sessions are on the block, but Charlie doesnt really fit the description. RJ and Sess? That’d be one hell of a move.
Oh hell yes for the Captain and Red Bull?
But do you think Nocioni is really the sweetener? Bar drinks….
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 30, 2009 1:45 AM CST up reply actions
Roughly jotted down the report:
“The one with the East team is very very intriguing. It involves a player the Blazers have had interest in before, and had discussions about before, but now that deal has been sweetened by another player which I think pushes us into that discussion of a championship team. It’s involving the two positions where I think the Blazers need the most help: PG and SF. It would involve Raef and two players in the rotation, no starters.”
That has to be Hinrich and Deng, right? The “involves a player the Blazers had discussions about before” could either be Hinrich or Deng. But the “player that pushes them into the championship discussion” can’t be Nocioni.
As for what other teams it could be… Sessions and Jefferson from the Bucks? Ford and Dunleavy from the Pacers? Neither situation makes nearly as much sense as it would with the Bulls.
Exactly
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 2:32 AM CST up reply actions
But why would we give up Hinrich and Deng...
(two legit Bulls starters) for role players?
Does that mean Noce moves into the starting SF position? Or does Outlaw move there? Still doesn’t make any sense to trade Deng for role players. We just gave the man a huge deal. Im sure it wasn’t so that we can convert it into a broken down player and two role players.
Maybe Blazers wanted Noce before (to give hard fouls?) and Hinrich was the sweetener?
Could be thabo, noah, or tyrus
Is a sweetener…
But I think Hinrich is probably the player they have discussed before, Nocioni is probably the new player on the table, as he is said to have value, but the Bulls never wanted to trade him… maybe till now.
I’m all for a trade of Hinrich, Nocioni for Raef, Outlaw, and anybody else from Bayless, Blake, Sergio…
Maybe Hughes is the sweetener? That’d be awesome! We include Noah and Hughes and take bake Channing Frye?
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
oops,
I thought Frye made more
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
Hinrich or Deng have been targeted by the Blazers before
So the deal starts with one of them. The article said the second piece put Portland into championship contention. No way is that Nocioni or Hughes.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 3:58 AM CST up reply actions
It can't be Deng (not unless Roy is being offered). Deng for role players is just laughable.
So it must be hinrich and…if it’s not noce or hughes, is it Thabo? (that would be duplication with Fernandez, wouldn’t it?)
Let it be Deng.. I'd take outlaw for Deng any day...
Deng’s playing well now and he’s still overrated.. with a big contract.
He can be replaced. Deng started the Clippers game strong with nearly 18 pts well before half time. He had a good overall game, Stacey and everyone “he’ll score at least 30 pts”. If it was Ben the projection would have been, “he’ll score at least 40”.
I think this is real upside…
Well, Deng didn’t play all of the second half, but still only managed 23 pts.
Where is the dog in Deng, make a statement in the League and score 35 pts.
man up!
Seriously, read your posts before you post them.
“Well, Deng didn’t play all of the second half, but still only managed 23 pts.”
?!?
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Who knows
maybe the Bulls move LaFrentz right away to another team that is offering a player the Blazers don’t need. It’s interesting and I hope something does get done.
If the extra money goes to getting BG a HUGE contract I'll be po'ed
At least go after someone good, then, like wade or Bosh.
Or how about Boozer?
If the money were out there, it seems like he wouldn’t hesitate to opt out and probably wouldn’t mind playing alongside Rose? Where else is he going to go this summer? Memphis?
Miami.
He’ll take Marion’s money.
More likely though, with his injury, he’s not opting out and he’s going back to Utah next year.
If Boozer doesn't opt out, Millsap becomes available as their owner won't pay luxury tax
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Maybe an off-season trade?
If the owner is that adamant about the tax, they’re in a sticky situation. I mean, if I were Boozer I wouldn’t opt out unless I had a firm offer for more than I was already making — and I don’t think he’s allowed to negotiate with other teams UNTIL he opts out.
Yeah, but if they trade Boozer they have to take back similar salary
Unless they dump him on a team under the cap. In that situation, though, I don’t know how much they’d get in return. If they just want to clear space to keep Millsap, it’s worth it. Westbrook/Durant/Green/Boozer could be a fun team to watch. They wouldn’t stop anyone on defense, but few would be able to stop them.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Maybe they think they are pretty close now...
that they have a lot of pieces in place, just need a bit more time to develop and some veteran toughness and leadership…
Nocioni= Veteran, Tough
Hinrich= Veteran, Leadership
If Pritchard really is following the Paxon mold of overvaluing his own players, he might think he is pretty close now, and that filling a hole at PG with a respected veteran starter and solid defender, and replacing Outlaw with the good defense*, and gritty fist pumping tenacity of Nocioni will be the missing piece(s)
- - This is his reputation, not my opinion.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
KP didnt say the team was close
The reporter said the second piece of the trade made them contenders. The only person that could mean is Deng. Nocioni does nothing for Portland.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 4:20 AM CST up reply actions
And unless Paxson is as stupid as we all say he is...
Deng is only going to portland in exchange for Roy.
So I guess it’s not the bulls they are talking to.
It's hard to build our team into a champion
with Deng’s 12 mil per contract eating at our cap room. Trading away Hinrich and Noc for an expiring deal is a great move, but Deng’s contract is the worst of the bunch.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
There you go again. I’m not convinced your Deng stuff is shtick. You only seem to whine when he’s doing well.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
You aren't convinced it's shtick?
Maybe I should try harder :)
And you’ve got it wrong. I’m always knocking Deng. It just so happens that after his occassional 5-decent-game runs, he gets 3/4 of BlogaBull back on his side.
Agreed.
So unless he was the first piece and Hinrich was the second (plus Roy is involved), there is no way Deng is in the discussion.
I think we can all agree
Roy is in no way involved with any trade talk.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 4:36 AM CST up reply actions
Hinrich and Deng have expensive contracts
If Pax was going to make a move in the free agent market he might want RLEC and cheap Outlaw and Sergio or whoever. It sounds unlikely yes, most trade rumors are. Hinrich and Deng sounds like the trade the reporter is talking about. How many ‘reported close’ trades have not ever happened? At least a million. This is probably another one.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 4:45 AM CST up reply actions
I hate that argument...
And, I’m not picking on you, cause I see it all the time… but basically your saying… “what I’m suggesting is extremely unlikely, and doesn’t make very much sense, but neither do many things that have happened”
Deng doesn’t make sense in this deal at all. Not even in a reported but never gonna happen deal. That’s like reporting that the Bulls might trade Larry Hughes for Josh Smith… If you were a reporter and a source gave you that scoop, you’d laugh.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
What about this
Link. That is as crazy as Deng + Hinrich = RLEC two rotation players. Yet he ran with the story. Reporters post dumb shit for views. It happens.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 5:01 AM CST up reply actions
Which deal?
I don’t think either are as crazy as D+H=RLEC
And, Sam Smith makes some crazy trade proposals, it’s his “thing” that he does, but those are just his crazy idea’s.
That’s very different than a reporter who says he has a source and that a deal is being discussed. Which is the case here.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
Except Sam is notorious for making up trade proposals
whole cloth in his head, whereas Quick is a respected beat writer who was reporting on a deal that was being discussed by the teams. Big f’n difference.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 5:19 PM CST up reply actions
I would have to agree
Deng was the piece, from what I understand, that held back the Kobe deal.
Why would the Bulls hold back Deng, blow the Kobe deal, then give Deng 70 mil, and then trade him for bench players in Portland in such a short time period?
I don’t think Deng can be involved if the details of the rumor are true.
Press the trade button. At this point no one will be missed!
The Chairman is a cheapeskate?
Or he fails at hedging and thus gets a Vinnyesque out.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 30, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
Paxson is under fire for underachieving this year.
so he offers our second best player and the 4th-5th best player for fillers and spare change?
Noce for Roy is an unlikely trade. So is Deng and Hinrich for Raef, Outlaw etc…
Those two trades will never happen. (unless Paxson is as stupid as we always say he is)
Well I hope Paxson is "stupid" today by your standards.
Make it happen…
I think it’s a decent trade, Bulls need a fresh start, let Deng go!
Deng wil be injuired in a week or two. Let him sit on Portland’s IR often for the next 4 years.
man up!
I think we can agree
to keep Deng out of the same sentence as Roy
by messwiththebull on Jan 30, 2009 7:29 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not saying he said it...
I’m saying he might be thinking it..
And it’s not that crazy of a thought if Oden takes the career arc that all of Portland is hoping for… but that thought might be crazy.
Deng cannot be traded to Portland in exchange for players not starting on Portland now. Paxon won’t do this. If they are that intent on moving players for expiring contracts, it would start with hughes, nocioni, and hinrich.
Deng has more value than any of them, plus, he is considered a part of our future core, which the other three shouldn’t be. Therefore, Deng isn’t as bad of a contract.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
my thoughts exactly.
Especially now that he’s under fire for the Bulls underachievement?
He needs good players fast. Not 3 blazers in the 7-12 roster spots for two of his top 5 players.
The thing is...
besides this board and realGM… I don’t remember anybody else really hating Nocioni. I would like to see him traded, and understand his deficiencies, as well as the reasons his contract in unacceptable to our team goals, so nobody has to convince me that Noc isn’t very good.
But, definitely Kc Johnson, I’m pretty sure Sam Smith, some of the guys at ESPN, and a bunch of TV announcers have all said that Nocioni has value around the league.
He has a reputation as a pesky defender, and a veteran leader, as well as somebody who can stretch the defense with a decent outside shot.
So, as far as the initial report goes, there are things that are reported facts and then things that are reported opinion…
We know it’s a east team, that it involves a PG and SF and that one of the players has been discussed before…
The part about the trade making them contenders is just somebody’s opinion. Be it Pritchard’s or the source’s or the reporters. And because both Hirich and Nocioni are considered to be solid veterans with good defense, and that’s what a young up and coming team like Portland needs, and because Portland can acquire them without giving up any core players… I think it makes some sense.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
Outlaw is our Nocioni
He drive us crazy. Not nearly to the extent Nocioni does you guys though.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 4:46 AM CST up reply actions
But Outlaw does has an emphatic fist pump! :-)
And he is a mediocre flopper. Totally unacceptable.
Outlaw constantly leaves his man open
and by constantly I mean if his man is not dribbling the ball Travis has no idea where he is. He does not box out, he shoots jumpers with one foot on the 3 point line, passes only 10% of the time, and misses way too many freethrows. That being said he can outscore the opposing team by himself for a quarter.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 4:58 AM CST up reply actions
It is possible
But he seems like a smart guy. Stranger things have happened.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
Good point.
Also, Blazers have a lot of good young players that need the PT and an experienced mentor to develop.
Hinrich and noce can be like a lindsey hunter-type mentor to Sergio, Jerry B, LMA etc…while providing insurance just in case the youngsters find the going too heavy?
Well much like Brand in Philly,
the thinking could be, “Yeah, we just signed this guy for big money, but upon further review he just doesn’t fit with the direction of this team.” Remember, the Bulls signed Deng to an extension when Skiles was still roaming the halls trying to figure out how to avoid confronting Wallace, and when Rose was not even considered a possibility.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
um, not true
deng signed his contract this summer, long after skiles and wallace were gone.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Deng signed the extension in July of 2008. Vinny was already the head coach
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
Whoops!
But the point remains that even after signing a player to a large contract, the franchise can decide that it wasn’t a good fit after all. I believe the thinking was that with Rose coming in, Deng would be able to feast off of the open mid-range jumpers produced by Rose’s penetration. But poor coaching, bad team chemistry, injuries and just poor shooting by Deng may be enough for Pax to think he’s expendable.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
I don't think so
Deng came out very slowly, I agree. But he was showing signs of life before he got hurt, and he’s been a different player since returning a few weeks ago. Deng is the guy Paxson refused to move for Pau Gasol. I don’t think he wants to trade Lu for such little in return. Unless they can get Fernandez back in the deal, moving him would be bad news.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
Exactamundo
They’ve given him the most ringing endorsement in Jerry’s vocabulary: money. It’s possible that this was only to avoid “losing him for nothing”, but the whole BYC issue makes trading him now kind of expensive. Hinrich is a VERY valuable piece; Portland’s not the only player in that game; they’re not getting Kirk for their junk and forcing us to add another starter. If they want to trade Greg , LMA or Joey, yeah, we can afford Deng and Kirk Not for that package.
by California Al on Jan 31, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
And Deng
Was already on the team not coming from the outside, I think Pax has some ideas of what Deng can do built up.
Deng’s contract is not going to kill this team, he can still be moved (easier to do next year or the following year) especially given past success, bball IQ, and age.
I do think though given where we are, and the fact that Deng ain’t a top 5 talent projected or ever at his position, that it would be nice to move him.
I thought
Portland was really eying Ben Gordon last year (going into 2006-2007) and were waiting for his contract to come up though……maybe that moves ROY to SF….
But I agree Hinrich makes more sense…..I just hadn’t heard rumours of Portland and Kirk, but then again I just might missed it too or forgotten. I know the Ben Gordon talks 2 years ago where all over the place (but he ain’t a PG)….
Not a chance of Roy moving to SF
And Gordon doesn’t exactly seem like an ideal fit.
I'm
Just saying those were rumours for 2 straight years up until the middle of last year…. I didn’t nkow how it was going to work….
sure it can be Nocioni
he has value around the league, didn’t you know.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 8:30 AM CST up reply actions
There is no way it's Deng.
Not a shot in hell that they Bulls trade Deng alone for bench players, let alone Deng and Kirk. No way.
I don't think
The Blazers would be too happy getting Ford/Dunleavy
Excluding Rose, dump the whole freaking team, including the coach, for all I care.
I have no emotional investment in players who have been sucking or griping the last year and a half. New players not matter how bad or good would be interesting for at least the next 20 games. I would take Outlaw & Rudy Fernandez for Noc & Gordon (if he waived his Bird Rights) at this point. It’s gotten that bad. Trade Deng if it gets rid of Noc. I’m sick of his 0 for 6 3-pointers and Aaron Gray-like defense.
Allen Iverson + 4 role players built around him got to the NBA Finals with Larry Brown.
Build around Rose. Make the team fun to watch at least.
THE CRAPPY OKLAHOMA CITY THUNDER ARE MORE FUN TO WATCH NOW THAN THIS TEAM.
by KentuckyBullsFan on Jan 30, 2009 2:23 AM CST reply actions
Getting Fernandez...
would definitely soften the blow of losing BG next year. Also, I’m thinking Webster rather than Outlaw.
Webster is injured until the All-Star break/early march and has not played yet more than a few minutes this season
Travis should have more trade value in the league, but probably both would be available in the right deal.
I commented with this on another post yesterday.
Seems Like Trade Kirk ASAP is the Conssus Does anyone think Portland would do this trade? A protected first round pick, Kirk and Drew Goden for Martell Webster, Raef Lafrentz, Sergio Rodriguez and Ike Digu. I heard some analyst say they are looking for a point guard.
by mustanging5 on Jan 29, 2009 12:43 PM PST reply
Substitute Noce For Drew and I like this deal for both teams.
by mustanging5 on Jan 30, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
What about :
Something like :
Hinrich, Nocioni, Noah
for
LaFrentz, Prizbilla, Rudy
Maybe the Blazers wouldn’t do it, but I think Noah could be a good (and younger) back-up for Oden/Aldridge, and Hinrich (better fit)/Nocioni (reliable SF) for Rudy (back-up because Roy ain’t going nowhere, plus they also have Bayless coming behind both Hinrich/Roy after this deal) is not that much of a bad deal for them.
The Game chose him !
There is no better backup for Oden than Przybilla
That is a very bad deal for Portland.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 4:00 AM CST up reply actions
Very bad indeed.
I think you should choose your words more carefully, or you could start looking like you over-value your guys as much as Paxson does.
The Game chose him !
Think about it
The Blazers would have 4 point guards, 4 small forwards, 4 power forwards, 1 shooting guard, 1 center.
That is a very bad trade.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 4:55 AM CST up reply actions
YDN would be so thrilled!
He could play a SF at center!
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Thats VDN's dream
A scenario where Noc could play 45mpg, playing PF/C
I dunno who this could be involving
But just for fun’s sake, here are the guys Portland will not, under almost any circumstance, trade right now: Roy/LMA/Oden/Rudy/Batum/Przybilla and maybe Bayless.
Obviously, Roy/LMA/Oden are much more untouchable than Rudy/Batum/Joel, but those 3 ain’t going anywhere. And Bayless only leaves if the Blazers are getting a really good, final piece type player back.
There is no way the Blazers trade Rudy. He is 23 years old, a rookie, and already pretty dang good. He is also extremely popular, and Pritchard worked too hard to convince him to forgo 5+ million Euros a year for 6 years, to come make a million bucks a year in the NBA. Rudy is the straw that breaks the camel’s back after teams deal with Roy/Oden/LMA.
Przybilla’s value goes beyond the numbers. He is, literally, the best backup center in the league. Great defender, no offense but doesn’t try to do what he can’t do, terrific rebounder. Basically, he makes us not have to worry about Oden’s foul troubles as much. Even when Oden has that under control, having a great backup like Joel for mid-level exception type cash is a huge luxury and won’t be traded away lightly.
Big men always get hurt as well, so depth there is VERY important for a playoff team.
Batum has been great for a dumb French rookie, and is a good defender— not only a good defender for a rookie. His potential is very high; many of us think he’s got the inside track on being the SF of the future. (HOWEVER, I don’t think his presence would prevent the Blazers from getting a more experienced, gooder SF right away since Batum is only 19/20 and is years away from his prime).
Bayless has tons of potential as well; already a good defender, and theoritically a very good complement to Roy. He’s also seen as a future starter— though I could see him traded if it got the Blazers all the PG they’d ever need.
I’d cringe if we moved him though, because one way or another, he’s going to be a purty good player.
This isn’t about overvaluing our own guys, these are just the guys who are very, very unlikely to be dealt, so there isn’t much reason to imagine them in trade scenarios. Like most of you, I doubt Deng is involved since he’s too good, and if he WAS involved and it just took the Blazers giving up RLEC, Frye, Outlaw, Sergio, Diogu, draft picks, whatever… it woulda’ already happened, that’s a no brainer for the Blazers and dumb for the Bulls.
HERE IS ANOTHER IMPORTANT POINT TO REMEMBER: Portland does not care about how expensive your contracts are, if they want your player. Portland has a very rich owner who will pay whatever he has to, if the team is gonna be really good. Portland will not be pinching any pennies any year soon.
I’ll be damned if we take Nocioni. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate Nocioni. If he was the price to get Deng and Hinrich and we lost nuthin’ special, well, I’d change my tune, but Nocioni is not anyone’s sweetener… he’s all vinegar, gross and bitter. He is like poop, except not as nice. Trading for him gives you fullblown AIDs, completely skipping the mild HIV period of the illness.
I do not like Nocioni.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Jan 30, 2009 5:17 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Right.
Your correct, although the AIDS line might have been a bit much.
But you are also more enlightened to the ways of the Noc’ then I think many others around the league are. Which is probably helped along by hanging out here and listening to us all bitch about Noc.
I a month or two you might be hanging out here and listening to us bitch about Travis Outlaw. “Stop taking such long two’s dammit! Just stand six inches further back and take the fucking three!”
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
I agree, Nocioni has value
Not everyone sees past the “hustle” and realizes he doesn’t really do anything out there.
Plus, he’s seen as a very tough player, and of course has the “heart of a champion” that many white players seem to have.
I could easily see a GM thinking Nocioni is exactly what his team needs— the fire! The passion! He plays hurt! They’ll remember one of his hot streak from 3 point land games, where he scores 20 or 30 something, and forget (or not notice somehow) how he likes to leave his guy to double dominant offensive powerhouses like Joel Przybilla or Dan Gadzuric. Did you see him argue that call? He really cares about the game!
The AIDs comment is probably incorrect, you are right… nowadays, the medicine and care you can receive for AIDs doesn’t make it a death sentence, while trading for Nocioni would probably be fatal for any hopes and dreams a fanbase once had. One day, there will be a cure for AIDs. There will never be a cure for Nocioni.
Despite how much Bulls fans hate him for having to watch him play way too many minutes every night, and consistently be a bad player, he really does have value around the league— even with the awful contract. I think if the Bulls management wanted to get rid of him, they could… which makes me think they actually still like him, or he is one of Reinsdorf’s Favorites (you guys would know better than I).
His rep still hasn’t caught up with his actual game, thankfully for Bulls fans.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Jan 30, 2009 5:33 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.....
I could easily see a GM thinking Nocioni is exactly what his team needs— the fire! The passion! He plays hurt!
You’d be trading for the reputations of Hinrich and Nocioni… it just so happens that Kirk’s is a bit more accurate. Or at least I think so.
If this deal does go down, then you might be a bit consoled by the fact that Nocioni would probably be a much better Blazer than a Bull, and likely so would Hinrich.
On our team of mismatched miscreants Nocioni tries to do too much and kills us, and Hinrich seems to disappear because he defers to the selfish tendencies of the others. Plus, as a coach’s son, he most likely can’t comprehend why everybody else is constantly making bad decisions.
Both of those players are much better on a better team with defined roles. I think Portland would qaulify.
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
If we make that deal
I hope you are right.
I certainly agree about Hinrich— being the 4th/5th option, just having to concentrate on defense, just playmaking when Roy wants to let him… it could really work.
Morty
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Somebody who also feels my pain when I see defensive ace, Noc, go and double guys who couldn’t score in a lay-up line.
So...
if they aren’t trading a starter, then that leaves Outlaw, Sergio, and RLEC as the three coming back.
It works for just Noc and Hinrich.
Bulls send out =18,000,000
Bulls recieve =17,596,500
Bulls Savings = 403,500
My name isn't Ron... I run a DJ and Karaoke business named Kidron Music... my name is Jesse...
It COULD be that
I just don’t see why or where or how we would even play Nocioni.
If KP thinks that highly of Hinrich (and obviously Hinrich would be an improvement, though Blake has played really well), then he might think it’s worth it, but Nocioni is soo expensive and we’d get soooo little back.
I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, it ain’t like it’s my decision, I’d just be surprised if we felt like Nocioni made it a sweet deal. If we wanted Hinrich, RLEC and pieces and draft picks could be enough if the Bulls wanted to save money and make financial room for Ben Gordon.
Mortimer
And honestly
I really don’t have a clue what PG and SF combo Jason Quick is talking about, and I haven’t even totally decided if the idea in theory is worth it— since I dunno who we could realistically get that actually makes us a “championship contender” as Quick asserts.
The Blazers will still have cap space this offseason, and that will help make trades as well. They very well could just sit tight, since they have been looking forward to that cap space even before getting Miles off the cap was a possibility. 5-8 million under the cap is still nice, and it can be made more by dropping Blake or Outlaw, and it makes trades easier since we don’t have to accept back equal trade value.
So, I think we’d wait till the offseason, but I won’t mind if they strike now if a great deal arises. Hinrich will still be available in the summer I bet, Deng won’t be a BYC anymore, and who knows what other players become open for trades from now and then. The Blazers don’t have any reason to rush into a deal, but I’m sure they won’t sit on a no brainer just for the love of a cap space window (even though it’s the last cap space window we’ll have as long as Roy and Oden are Blazers).
Mortimer
I know that Kirk and especially Noce contracts
are not the best contracts in the NBA (understatement especially for Noce’s), but to the Blazers advantage, they decrease every year. So they will become very manageable when you need to spend big bucks to resign your young players currently under rookie contracts (and you have a plethora of those).
Speaking of which, in a few years, there’s no way the Blazers can keep and pay Roy/Rudy/Bayless for the SG spot the amount of money that their talent (and likely level then) will require. And you also will have LMA and Oden asking for nice bucks.
How do you see that situation unfold for you guys ? That’s what led to the desmise of the Bulls (among other things), and will be a challenge for KP (even though his owner doesn’t mind going over the lux tax).
The Game chose him !
If Bayless stays
It’ll have to be as a PG, and that’s where they are developing him to be.
And Rudy, although a SG, will be a utility guard along with Roy, able to play both positions. I just don’t see them thinking twice about signing any of our guys that wanna stay and we wanna keep them, because the money really doesn’t matter.
I see us keeping Roy/LMA/Oden and Rudy pretty much no matter what— Oden has been great lately, LMA fits him well, and Roy and Rudy are guys who can play a few positions and fit in with anybody. For Bayless to stick, he HAS to be a PG— but not a traditional PG, just one who can be a DECENT playmaker for when Roy doesn’t want to be the playmaker, and be able to shoot and guard the opposing PG (because we can’t have Roy do that).
If it turns out Bayless isn’t that guy, he will be traded.
I could also envision a scenario where Bayless is TOO GOOD to be okay with being the 4th option on a team, and wanting one day (years from now) to run his own team and not be behind 3 guys in terms of importance. I think he’s a pretty talented guy, both skill wise and athletically, but he’s going to have to fit what we need from him, not whatever he can give us… if you know what I mean.
The Blazers don’t want to spend like crazy if they don’t have to, but to keep the guys they really want together, they’ll spend what they have to spend. I’m sure that was part of KP’s recruitment pitch to Rudy— take the pittance of a salary now, we got an owner who will make it up to you in the long run.
As long as guys want to stay in Portland, I don’t worry about us being able to keep them.
And Bayless is the only one I am unsure about, but it’s too soon to deal him. He just has to be a big PG, not an undersized SG, if he wants to be successful in the NBA (or, at least for the Blazers).
Some of us worry about what happened to the Bulls happening to us, but I think Oden and Roy are a higher level of talent than Chandler, Hinrich, Deng, Nocioni, etc… and makes it easier to not even worry about overvaluing someone and passing on a deal.
Now that you guys got Rose, it’s the same situation. You CAN’T overvalue him and make a mistake, he’s too good.
Mortimer
Yeah, I don't mean to sound like a cock when I say that
But it is what it is, and the salary cap stuff won’t become a problem if they got the right players.
Before, when we had horrible management, it just led to overpaying crappy players like Damon Stoudamire, or Zach Randolph. With good management, that limitless resources can be a blessing again, and not a curse like it sorta was before.
The Blazers willingness to spend as much as they want has certainly bit them in the ass before, and if they aren’t careful it could again. Just because we can outspend anyone, doesn’t matter if we spend on the wrong players.
Mortimer
Were just bitter here
because the Bulls are more or less the creme of the crop when it come to profitability. We just dont have management that can find a team worth spending that kind of money on, and even if they did, our owner probably wouldnt spend it.
I didn't take it like that at all.
Really, the only thing I’m jealous of Portland fans is the spending. Well, I guess at this point, an organization with a long-term plan, too.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Nobody who's seen you around is going to think that
If I were a Blazer fan, I’d be more concerned about them repeating the team that choked to the Lakers than the jailblazers. That was the deepest team I’ve ever seen. You have so many good players, it requires a bunch of them to subordinate their interests to winning. And if you don’t win, the greenheaded monster shows up. I’d guess what’s in your interest right now would be to trade some REAL potential for some REAL role player(s). This would be an excellent time, imho, to plug in a Kirk and a Noc and make a run at a title this year.
It would fail, but next year’s focus would be clearly identified. Give Nate 6 months of working with the group he wants to take into next season, and his offseason will be that much more productive. Contrast that with going into camp with 12 young players who think it’s their time competing for minutes, and it may be a better scenario. Two years ago, the Bulls thought they had so many “pieces”, it was impossible to not have a happy ending. It ended up a group of potentially decent players with intrasquad rivalries, and I don’t have to spell out the results.
You’ve got your big three set. That’s every team’s goal. Finding a good mix of nine other players that are happy and fit well in complementary roles is your challenge. And don’t dump Tyson Chandler so you can sign Ben Wallace.
by California Al on Jan 31, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions
Trade possibilities for a eastern PG and SF
After reading this, I searched for all the PG-SF from the Eastern Conference. At least the best (I hope I’m not forgetting anyone). From my point of view, there are four categories: Irrealistic (Lebron, Pierce and so on), Don’t see happening (Rose, Calderon, etc.), Possible (Hinrich/Deng/Noc, Miller/Young, TJ Ford/Granger, etc.) and crap (the Knicks).
Possible
Hinrich———————Deng/Noc———————Chicago
Iverson———————Prince———————Detroit
Miller———————Young———————Philadelphia
TJ Ford———————Granger———————Indiana
Felton———————Wallace———————Charlotte
Ridnour———————Jefferson———————Milwaukee
Chalmers———————Marion———————Miami
Irrealistic
Mo Williams———————Lebron James———————Cleveland
Jameer Nelson———————Rashard Lewis———————Orlando
Rajon Rondo———————Paul Pierce———————Boston
Mike Bibby———————Marvin Williams———————Atlanta
Don’t see happening
Calderon———————Moon -—————-Toronto
Rose -—————-Deng/Noc———————Chicago
Harris———————Carter (Can play at SF)———————New Jersey
Stuckey -—————-Prince———————Detroit
Arenas -—————-Butler -—————-Washington
Crap
Chris Duhon———————Quentin Richardson———————New York
Nate Robinson———————Wilson Chandler———————New York
There’s some interesting things that Portland could trade for. Hinrich and Deng would be great, as Miller and Young (I think). TJ Ford is not bad and Granger is playing like an all-star. Iverson and Prince could be a good choice, but I think Iverson doesn’t fit with Roy.
So, I think the Bulls should try something like this (depending if it was Noc or Deng)
Noc (Trade)
Chicago: Hinrich, Noc
Portland: Raef, Bayless, Outlaw
or
Deng (Trade)
Chicago: Hinrich, Deng
Portland: Raef, Batum, Rodriguez, Shavlik Randolph (just to allow the trade)
by bull83 on Jan 30, 2009 8:27 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
So you want the Blazers to give you more for Noc than Deng ?
The Game chose him !
You problably mean Fernandez and not Rodriguez then, right ?
The Game chose him !
No,
I’d think Bayless and Outlaw have more value. And frankly, that first trade is the only one I see happening. The Blazers have a hilarious love affair with Fernandez, and trading him would be PR suicide. They won’t really have much use for Bayless once Hinrich is aquired.
I do think, however, that they have absolutely no interest in Nocioni. Why would they? Outlaw is twice the player for half the price. Or somethign like that.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
their stats are near identical, actually
Noc:
PPG 10.3
RPG 4.3
APG 1.3
SPG 0.4
BPG 0.3
FG% 0.406
FT% 0.817
3P% 0.374
MPG 24.7
Outlaw
PPG 11.7
RPG 3.9
APG 1.0
SPG 0.6
BPG 0.8
FG% 0.431
FT% 0.692
3P% 0.415
MPG 26.9
half the price, yes.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
You forgot the most important stat!
net +/- ;)
Noc leading the team at +11,0 (51 % PT)
Outlaw at the bottom of the players with similar PT -8,1 (54 % PT)
So hardly similar at all…
I'd do this trade straight up, if it were possible
Take some of the fouls out of there
That’s not really a fair statistic, as Noc takes more fouls because of defensive breakdowns from teammates.
Granted he’s too quick to just foul sometimes rather than challenge, but at least he often turns a instant 2 into a 1.5 (presume avg big man FT % around 70%.
Some of the fouls are real, and some are caused by Noc, but that vast discrepancy is mostly caused by Noc’s teammates (the 3 young bigs and Goo_en) missing defensive rotations….
I wish he wasn’t so “I’ll just foul” because he used to try to challenge them, but I think that’s the frustration factor this year with Noc. He no longer tries the challenge and just fouls.
Instead of trying to adjust the numbers a little here and there to try to account for whose fault
a foul is or what may have been Noc’s intention when he made the foul or what % free throw shooter he fouled and what actual conversion rate was made by players after being fouled by Noc…let’s just say Noc commits a large number of fouls
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Defensive breakdowns from teammates??
Opposite day marches on!
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jan 30, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions
Again
I think you guys read too much into my posts, I’m arguing a small point of a bigger issue.
Noc fouls too much sure, especially because he should try to challenge more often, but throwing that stat up there hides the fact that Noc often is fouling because of defensive breakdowns from teammates.
And Ugh It Live, watch as I wrote below for a few plays/games and after a bit you will or should see what I’m talking about. It’s not the easiest to see defense on tv since we’re trained to watch the ball, but watch how the offense attacks our team, and after a few plays or maybe games if you aren’t used to watching it, you’ll see it time and time and time again, with the biggest offenders being Tyrus and Noah early on (Gray always—but he’s not getting the PT quite like he was) Goo_en who’s been hurt a lot, and while it wasn’t as bad early, Ben Gordon of the past month has totally reverted to the BG on D that frustrated Skiles.
All our guys have great moments on the one on one D, but on the drive and kick game, which is becoming more and more the way the game’s played today, we’re atrocious. I think it’s because of this taht we’ve been switching far more of late to the zone’s and ahve performed considerably better in that kind of defense of late (the zone) because our guys are athletic and quick and the zone allows us to not get caught up int he drive and kick game. Right now the only 4 guys who seem to remember how to handle that D are Hinrich (always), Sefalosha (always), Nocioni (often), Deng (often). The rest are lost….but then again so was the whole 2006 Men’s World Championship team sans Hinrich, and that’s why Kirk played over Paul, etc that year.
Unfortunately that’s a tough defense to learn and the guys aren’t figuring it out….maybe that’s what Pax was saying when he felt the defense was becoming too complicated, maybe Vinny was unsuccesfully trying to teach us this and after 3 montsh and nobody getting it he gave up, I don’t know.
But it has caused frustration,a nd Noc is a guy who’s ridiculously stupid on the court when he’s frustrated. More of his fouls are from breakdowns than you’d think, and another good chunk are from perhaps breakdowns, but are one’s where the frustrated Noc should try to contest and is just too apt to foul (something he’s gotten worse with over the years, but most so in this “frustrating” year)….
Come on majoyenrac
I’m a Noc a booster, but his fouling is only about 25% relative to defensive breakdowns.
He’s taken fouls this year where the opponent is trying to force a fast break 1 against 2 Bulls. It’s been worse this year than last year.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 30, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions
hmm
Noc’s foul rate stacks up their as among the highest of any veteran player in the league. He leads that list in MP(only a couple guys are close). His foul rate has increased every season in the league. This is a very real negative aspect of his game. He fouls for his own defensive break downs, he makes “good” fouls, he fouls for team mates break downs, he fouls for imaginary break downs, he fouls to foul, and then he fouls some more.
I wasn't saying
He doesn’t foul unnecessarily, but he also foul’s more for teammate breakdowns than you would think…..granted many of these he used to try to defend more than just foul. This year he just fouls when there’s a teammate breakdwon causing the huge spike.
His foul rate is a billion times worse this year but our defense is continually getting worse by the year.
I’m not saying his foul’s aren’t bad, often they are, because often he can challenge the play and not just give up a foul, but many of them are frustration points caused from teammate lapses, and they are far higher than the 25% you predicted above.
I am trying to say that’s not a great stat, that’s all.
But seriously don’t necessarily follow the ball for a few plays whent he Bulls are on defense, follow what our opponents do out there, then see it with Noc (cuz Noc often is a defender in the trees, then see it with Noc and Hinrich (Hinrich who’s infintely better) and you can quickly see what those two are trying to do, and will see the Goo_en’s the Gray’s, and the Gordon’s constantly not moving into the forced switch and left standing around, and will see the HInrich’s and the Noc’s moving (and at times will see Deng, much more often than not—and no I’m not about to say Noc is a better defender than Luol, because Luol is a solid one on one man, but Deng is apt to get mixed up on the pick and roll D more than Noc and especially Kirk….
Its a perfectly fine stat as long as you understand it in context
which you seem very worried about everyone doing, but not doing so much yourself. It’s a pretty silly battle to be waging.
What
Nobody’s looking at it in context. Where do the Blazers break down on D like the Bulls?
I am trying to have people take a raw number and put it in context, which is why I don’t understand your “not doing it yourself”. Who else has put that in context with our team?
Yeah, just looking at the number of fouls a player committs is stoopid.
It basically says nothing.
Uhm, I'm on your side...
Ok, i’ll butt out :P
(Frowns upon Majo)
Sorry
My bad, I guess I’m used to this site’s sarcasm…
And thought that’s what you were doing.
Thanks.
I was trying to type how folks should watch our D, it’s harder to do than it seems. And watching the D is far more meaningful than throwing a stat up there or saying this guy beat that guys man and that guy beat this guy’s man…..that might work for some team’s, but doesn’t work fot eh Bulls.
The only reason the Bulls aren’t dead bottom 30th in the league in defense is because we’re an athletic group…..our defensive principles and lack of improvement there probably on a pure defensive level keeps us bad but in the lower 20’s.
Apologize for snipping, it just seems I’m often a target for nonsensical responses on here or sarcasm at times….that’s all.
well you said to just throw it out before anyone had really taken it out of context
no one has really made any especially wild claims about it. I guess i should have you seem very concerned with providing context to defend beyond the point that the discussion seems to require and perhaps to the exclusion of considering its negative impacts(all tho perhaps you do that quietly =p ).
It’d be nice to see stats like a +/- type stat for fouls by the team for each player(I suspect Nocs would be comparably bad, perhaps I’m wrong tho), how many bonus FTA the bulls give up(additional “hidden” cost), where that ranks, and Bonus FTA differential…but thats really beyond the scope of things.
I think there are such numbers.
Go to 82games.com
Reprisal
I am trying to avoid the constant tyger, etc rants everytime I say anything halfway decent about Noc on this site. And I was trying to let folks who do the man to man watch to watch our horrendous D a different way.
This discussion with back and forths and me has been going on for a while and isn’t necessarily directed at you, and I’m not trying to attack anyone, but am ready for teh typical “he just sucks” he can’t do anything jive that is on here all the time.
Using that stat in a comparative alone without any content is essentially saying he’s pure garbage because of the huge foul discrepancy. I was defending the huge discrepancy a bit in that stastistic and indicating that it’s really not a good indicator at all because I’m sure Outlaw’s foul’s aren’t at all to stop defensive woes from teammates on a put together Blazers team, they’re just real fouls.
Noc fouls too much though.
I guess
You could say I’m trying to put my text/catering a bit to the usual suspects in a context so taht I don’t get the ususal bab ire for no reason.
Let's score the Noc mistakes tonight
If he gets the minutes. he only got 13 against the woeful Clippers so it’s possible he gets about the same against the Kings.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 30, 2009 4:41 PM CST up reply actions
So your argument is that outlaw is
Younger, taller, plays more minutes and fouls less… The fact that he fouls much less says nothing about him being better than noc. he could just let people go by him. Anyone can NOT FOUL. Says nothing.
Could you explain that whole clutchnet thing? wth is that supposed to say?
Fact is Bulls outscore opp when Noc is in.
Blaxers get outscored when Outlaw is in.
But I’m all for a trade. I want to see Noc succeed on the Blazers. That would be great!
And I wouldn’t have to listen to (read) all the bitching about him on this site…
Can I explain Clutch?
Here’s a tip: when I link to the source of the statistic, and you don’t understand it, it’s (sometimes) good to read the description in that website. Or google it. Which is what I did.
You’re right that Outlaw can hypothetically let people just pass him up and not foul; but that basis you have on that argument is flawed and not looking into other variables. How do you know that he’s letting him go past him to run into someone for a charge? What if it’s a trap?
On the other hand, you have Nocioni who fouls at anything and everything that crosses past him. Is it sometimes a strategic move? Of course. But when you’re averaging a foul every 7.15 minutes, something is wrong with the player, not the formation.
So let’s look at a bland defensive stat, Drtg
Drtg
Nocioni 109
Outlaw 109
Now, let’s look at a more detailed, but more flawed, stat. Here’s a statistic you can read up on: DCS
DCS (at ‘06-’07)
Nocioni 36
Outlaw 76
Don't bother Bass
+/- is a useless stat unless it favors your argument, remember?
by California Al on Jan 31, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions
They both equally suck
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
And about Fernandez--
—I totally agree our love affair goes overboard, but that’s what happens with exotic Euro-ie players who do alley oops and fancy passes and whatnot. We love him more than what he gives currently, that’s for sure.
But look at it this way… if you had a 23 year old rookie, skinny as hell, hasn’t worked on his body yet, shooting 40% from three, has a high b-ball IQ with the ability to make amazing passes with his great court vision, tries on defense and is improving, is very clutch, and makes a lot of highlight plays and enjoys massive fan support… you wouldn’t TRADE him, would you?
I know people know that Rudy is a rookie, but he’s also only 23… which, of course, used to be normal rookie age. I just can’t see us trading him any time soon, since he is cheap as dirt and already pretty good.
Mortimer
PS: I ain’t saying that you’re saying we should be ok with trading Rudy, just sorta throwing it out there.
Hi Mort
good to hear from you. There are a few points I’d like to make about Rudy Fernandez. The first is that he’s a rookie in name only – he’s been playing basketball for years, and has extensive Olympic experience. It’s stretching the truth to suggest his adjustment is anywhere near as difficult as a true rookie’s. Secondly, he has a very easy role. He plays with a terrific team, first of all, and second, his job is basically come out and shoot off screens. As far as an introduction to NBA basketball, that’s about as easy as it gets, especially when defenses are primarily attending to Roy, LMA, and even Greg. Third, he’s not a 40% shooter from three, and he hasn’t been for a long time. After shooting 43% in November, he’s shot 38% and 34% respectively. Considering the fact that he plays with such excellent creators, and that the other aspects of his game have atrophied, that’s not good. It’s actually pretty average.
I would trade him if I were the Blazers. Not necessarily for Kirk, or even to the Bulls, but I would view him as a great chip to acquire the kind of player – like a Stoudemire – who would legitimately put the Blazers over the hump. And I think KP would do so, too.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 30, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Well, for a allstar-superstar guy, I guess
So, theoritically, sure, he could be tradeable then.
And I know he was a Euro pro, but I think the transition is still a tough one, especially for a young guy like Rudy. We’ve given him an easy role, but we expect more from him in the coming years— definitely more Ginobili than current-Peja. Like most college players, he’s never played this many games in a season before just at the halfway point, and unlike college players he’s never had to deal with such athletes.
In Europe, Rudy is the super-athletic Kobe type. Here, he’s gotta be craftier to make do with his good-for-a white dude athleticism. That’s a HUGE transition.
You’re right about his percentage, it has dropped— which I think is part of my point, he is just a rook who is still learning the league. He has hit that rookie wall and I doubt it’ll get better with his allstar weekend activities.
As a 23 year old still learning how to play his athletic, slashing Euro game in the NBA, he has a long ways to go and a lot left to develop. He isn’t a final product, and he’s pretty good as he is right now— a good ROLE player. I think he can be a star role player, an untradeable element of a championship team.
I think being a pro in Europe for years helps, but it’s overblown with how much it helps. It’s made him smarter, but the same rookie problems pertains to him.
This version of Rudy isn’t the final version, and he’s not that much different than some 4 year college player entering the league at 23. He is a smarter version of that sort of rookie I’d imagine, but just the simple fact he has had to change his game so much just to deal with the length and athleticism no Euro team has, tells me that he has more development to go.
I think he’ll be able to do a minor version of what he did in Europe, he just has to get more in shape, stronger, and adjusted to NBA athletes. He still hasn’t been able to do that, since he’s a dumb rookie.
Mortimer
PS: But yeah, anyone outside of Roy and Oden are tradeable for SUPER duper star.
Keep in mind
Deng and Rudy are almost exactly the same age(12 days, with various pros/cons on either side). If we trade Deng and dont get back Rudy or something on that level it pretty much massively sucks for us. Neither Outlaw or Sergio are any kind of real building block for us. Of course that doesnt mean you should/will trade him. What I’d really love to see is us keeping Deng and getting Rudy, not holding my breathe tho.
You're definitely right
that Sergio and Outlaw aren’t going to be any sort of building blocks for you guys if some kind of trade goes down. Sergio’s ceiling is “serviceable NBA point guard” and what you see of Outlaw now is what you get.
Morty hit the nail on the head about Rudy’s availability — it’s essentially nil for now, and I can’t see him being included in any deal that isn’t Hinrich/Deng, which really doesn’t make sense from the Bulls’ perspective. What’d I’D really like to see is Hinrich in a Blazers uniform, even more so than Deng, In the Blazers’ offense, the 3 does a lot of standing in the corner waiting for kickout threes, and that’s not really Deng’s game. RLEC and Bayless for Hinrich…that’s the deal I want.
by BlazersOrBust on Feb 1, 2009 10:56 PM CST up reply actions
That deal would get
a lot of crap over at BE — we tend to be a provincial lot. But Hinrich is basically an overall better version of Blake, and his most important selling point is that he’s an excellent perimeter defender, of which we currently have…uh, zero.
One reason Oden can’t stay out of foul trouble is that the guards can’t keep anybody out of the paint, and Hinrich would greatly help that. Hinrich/Rudy/Roy is an excellent three-guard rotation in my opinion, and Sergio can sniff for scraps until he trots back to Spain with his tail between his legs (I’m not his number one fan).
From the Bulls’ perspective, you’re clearing out a guy for whom you no longer have much use and getting cap flexibility and a blue-chip (well, maybe off-blue) guard prospect who’s a tenacious defender and gets into the paint at will. Helps both sides.
by BlazersOrBust on Feb 1, 2009 11:39 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, I'd absolutely love that deal. I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm firmly ensconced
in the dump Hinrich for an expiring (RLEC being the perfect one because Chairman ‘Dorf doesn’t have to pay most of it) and maybe a young prospect if we can (Bayless fits the bill).
by fundamentallysound on Feb 1, 2009 11:43 PM CST up reply actions
the best deal I could come up with given the need to match contracts
You guys get Drew Gooden’s expiring contract and Kirk for RLEC, Bayless, and Blake.
by fundamentallysound on Feb 1, 2009 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
I had no interest in trading Noc
when we had him locked into a 3 year 2.5 mil per contract. It was a great contract for what I thought he delivered for the club.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 30, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
I doubt it, RLEC isn't big enough to free up the cap space to sign Boozer this summer, Marion's deal is.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 6:19 PM CST up reply actions
RLEC plus the expiring deals of Frye or Diogu
Would be enough though, I believe.
You just have to renounce either Frye or Diogu, because they’ll place a large cap hold because they’re coming off their rookie deals.
I don’t think the Blazers are after Marion, because of the horror stories they have heard about his fragile ego in PHX, and how poorly he has played since that trade, and his overall attitude and worry about touches and credit for the team success. He won’t get that in Portland, either.
Marion messed up a great situation by being a loser, but if he got his mind straight and started trying again, he could be awesome. He was good before they got Nash, he shoulda’ still been good.
Though I’m more worried about a 29/30 year old player throwing a hissy fit after being the highest paid guy on his team (on a team with Amare and Nash, even), since that’s really immature for a player that old. That should be a guy trying to get his first post-rookie deal, not an established vet with a team for years.
I don’t trust Marion’s personality, and his game hasn’t made it worth the risk for the last year and a half.
Mortimer
As an expiring contract in 2010 he might have value...
We had some discussions about a combo of Hinrich and Hughes.
Bibby/Williams is not "irrealistic"
Bibby expires at the end of the year and Williams is a RFA. They’ve already got a ton of money tied up in Johnson/Smith with Childress still overseas. Johnson can opt out after next season and eventually they’ll have to pay Horford too. Dealing Bibby/Williams for Rodriguez/Outlaw/RLEC will make them considerably worse this year, but this is an organization with a closer eye on the bottom line due to still ongoing ownership squabbles.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
I'm not so sure
They are fourth on the Eastern Conference and I believe they will try to make a run on the playoffs. If they play Detroit, I see them going to the semi-finals. And Bibby is playing great, by the way. So…
In a normal environment, I'd agree w/ you, but considering how bad the economy is, I wouldn't be surprised
to see some non-championship contenders willfully give up a higher playoff seed in exchange for some financial savings. Don’t forget that Raef’s contract is being largely paid off by insurance.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Are they going to resign Bibby in the offseason, though?
And I’ve read that they’re shopping Williams (I think on ESPN.com).
No way Ford and Granger
Danny Granger is the 3rd best SF in the East right now.
If there is any truth to this story the Felton Wallace makes the most sense because Larry/M Jeff has been shopping them all year.
if its Deng and Hinrich
we better get some first rounders, but I wouldn’t mind it too much to be honest.
Portland’s first round pick will not be good enough to warrant trading Deng. This is already a weak draft class and Portland’s non-lottery pick will get us a bench player at best. If Deng is involved, we better get Rudy. I can understand unloading Hinrich in a salary dump, but if this team trades Deng it better get a real player in return (and I’m not talking about Outlaw).
If Dengs involved I want Rudy, if Kirks involved I want Bayless
and throw in Outlaw for shits and giggles.
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 30, 2009 9:16 AM CST up reply actions
I like the idea
But don’t you guys think that we would receive too many guards in Bayless and Rudy? Why not Batum instead of Bayless?
I would go after Batum as well
unless Paxson wants a backup plan in case Gordon leaves.
At this point Paxson should all ready be preparing for next year. What we have this year is not as important. If Hughes isn’t moved by the deadline he will be by this summer. Gooden can still be moved before the deadline.
Hopefully more than one move will be made.
Then use Gooden and Hughes expiring contracts...
… to get someone to replace BG. Get Batum and Rodriguez, and then try to find someone else to be a 6th man. And we can’t forget that we still have Thabo. Unless the plan is playing Thabo at SF
remember that Bayless is a 2
We have heard Bayless’s name all year in these Bulls/Portland rumor. From what I have seen of him, (going right by Derrick for a half) and lighting up BobCats the next night…. he is a quicker Ben Gordon with a little weaker jumpshot. He can’t handle the ball( he played SG in college), and he can’t defend. So if you got him for Hinrich with the idea Ben is not coming back then he replaces Ben but can you convince him to be the scoring 6th man off the bench? Then you could play with a bigger starting backcourt.
Yippee! Four more years of arguing bigger does not equal better
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Bayless is a decent ballhandler
And he’s been a pretty good defender, especially man on man, only prone to normal rookie mistakes of grabbing too much.
If he’s guarding PGs, he’s good. If he’s guarding SGs, he’s too small— so if you’re arguing that, I agree.
But he’s been playing PG for us with Blake out and doing well, for a guy still learning to be a PG.
Morty
That would have to be it.
Agree 100%. Fernandez could be a terrific complement to Derrick – in fact, nearly perfect, because he’s a long, athletic guy who runs the break, spot up three point shooter, and he’s an active defender. Outlaw, likewise, might actually work well – again, super athlete, can shoot the three. You really hit the nail on the head there, IK.
Frankly, I think it’s also a great trade for the Blazers. With Deng and Kirk, I think they can win the West. That team can beat the Celtics, Lakers, anybody. As for us, it starts the rebuilding process in earnest.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
After watching the Olumpics
I was really high on Fernandez.
That would be a nice addition.
The entire Blazers team is solid,
so I don’t think that the Bulls could ask for a better trading partner. The only weak point of that Blazers roster used to be Raef, but now that it’s 80% paid by insurance and expiring, again, you couldn’t ask for more.
It’s an interesting turn of events, because the Blazers’ GM said in an interview that he followed the John Paxson model of getting good attitude young players with a proven track record of winning in college or internationally.
Unfortunately, every time Pax followed that model, he had to sacrifice either height/defensive ability (BG/Noc), offensive talent (low shooting percentages of Deng/Hinrich), or low post presence/ability to develop (Tyrus/Noah). Instead of these walking mistakes, the Blazers were able to get people like Webster, Roy, Fernandez, LMA and Oden. And I know the feeling on here is that LMA is the second coming of Joe Smith. Even then, the Blazers’ picks have been consistently better. (No one realized this when the Bulls were on the verge of becoming a contender, of course.)
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
good points
Paxson implementation/administration of this similiar plan (in all phases) is a minus “F”,. True " Blazers’ picks have been consistently better."
man up!
LMA is no Joe Smith
He’s starting to round into the second coming of Sheed (minus the crazy gene) … his post game has improved dramatically, his perimeter defense and quickness allows him to effectively guard 2-4 very effectively and he’s close to being able to guard 1-5. His rebounding rate is still pretty anemic though.
Good lord
he’s close to being able to guard 1-5
I probably shouldn’t step in the way of Blazer fans jumping into the empty pool.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 30, 2009 4:05 PM CST up reply actions
I know it sounds weird
But LMA is actually really good at defending quick PGs, and has done it very effectively all season.
He’s a MUCH better perimeter defender, than he is an interior defender, because of his length and really nice quickness. He just isn’t strong, but it isn’t like anyone is outmuscling him down low, like the Celtics did to Gasol.
On screen and roll switches, LMA often guards the PG better than our PGs. That isn’t saying much, but for a 6’11" dude, it’s pretty good. He does a very good job getting his hand on the ball, causing deflections, and staying in front of lil’ 6 footers.
Morty
You not I didn't say he was there yet.
Just that he’s getting close. Watch him some time.
by nikolokolus on Jan 31, 2009 12:07 AM CST up reply actions
If it's Hinrich and Nocioni, best deal Paxson has ever made...
…no matter the return.
If it’s Hinrich and Deng, Fernandez better be coming back with LaFrentz otherwise it’s baaaaaad.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 30, 2009 9:43 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Nocioni
so underrated. I hope he is traded and his true potential will be seem. A good team which establishes a true role for him, and a coach who will actually coach him the correct way, and you’ll see a very good player.
Blazer’s don’t have anyone who provides the intangables which Noc brings to his game. Noc is so frustrated in Chicago, he is now making mistakes because he hates this screwed up situation of a team with Paxson created.
Put him on the team in contention, and he might provide the value similiar to a “Robert Horry”. A disruptive force! (who knocked the Suns out of a championship with timely flagarent fouls and also one who hits big 3pts shots down the stretch for many games)
Bulls can’t use him, because they aren’t in contention for nothing, except having conflict with there coaches and GM who doesn’t know whether he’s coming or going.
man up!
way to go
send this to Pritchslappy ASAP! Nice work sleeper agent exult!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
actually the thing we need to do is infiltrate Blazer's Edge
and talk Nocioni up. Evidentally Pritchard loves to bask in the glow of his greatness, and it certainly burns brightly in the blogasphere. We need to assume screen names like BigGregNeckBeard and Fernando4Evah and write lustily about the lack of fist-pumps on the Blazers. It could help. And I’m not certain I’m joking.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
LOl
gotcha. I wouldn’t want him either. Although, in all honesty, I don’t know why we’re talking about Noc at all. Kirk and Gooden + Raef, Bayless and filler. You get your defensive point guard and an expiring deal, we get cap space and a prospect you won’t need, anyway.
Why all the fuss?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Because Quick specifically said point guard and small forward
The more I think of it, it either has to be Hinrich and Deng or it’s another team he was talking about.
i think you're deluding yourself
if you think you are getting 2 starters (not that hinrich starts, but is certainly a starting caliber pg) for guys who come off your bench. hinrich and nocioni in some of these proposed deals is a pretty good deal.
i’m tired of nocioni, don’t get me wrong, but he can be a good piece on many teams.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
I don't think Norsk thinks it is ACTUALLY Deng and Hinrich
Only that, if it involved the Bulls, it has to be them.
And since that isn’t likely (in my opinion), then it’s probably a deal with someone else.
To me, getting Hinrich would be fine (I’d be happy for it, but not that un-happy if we didn’t get him), but Nocioni would make it a bad deal for the Blazers.
I would not be shocked if this is KP leaking stuff through Quick, to raise trade values and work smoke screens. Maybe he wants other GMs to think the Bulls are silly enough to trade Hinrich and Deng (or Caron Butler and whoever), to get another deal to go through.
I really ain’t sure.
I just agree with most of you, and doubt it’s for Hinrich AND Deng, since that’s too much, and I also doubt we’d want Nocioni.
Mortimer
i'm just trying to think of other possible pairs
there ain’t that many.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
I agree
Us WANTING Hinrich and Deng makes sense, but what we’re allegedly giving up doesn’t make sense for you guys, and I really don’t think Rudy is up for grabs at all.
So, honestly, I dunno what to make out of all of it. A Bulls trade does not have to happen now, I don’t know ANY trade the Blazers could feasibly do that brings us the Western Conference Finals this year (in my opinion, the only thing that gets us there EVENTUALLY is Oden being Oden… and happily for us, he’s been great the last 5 games or so, giving us hope for a mild playoff run this year), and if we simply wanted Hinrich and Deng we could wait for the offseason when Deng isn’t a BYC, and make a simpler deal for him that won’t have to involve another team.
Plus, the Blazers would have cap space then, making it easy to take back the big salaries and just give up rookie contracts and draft picks.
Perhaps there is a 3rd team in the mix that hasn’t come to light… because I don’t think what we’d be willing to give up is enough to get more than Hinrich.
I think the Bulls would maybe give up Hinrich just to save money, though. What do you think? Aren’t we making this more complicated than we need to, when PG is the only position the Blazers really need, and Deng is most likely offlimits?
Mortimer
well, considering a blazers-bulls
trade was rumored with you guys obtaining hinrich, i could see it that way. i don’t blame the blazers for not wanting to take on nocioni, but it could be worse…
but yeah, that’s thing thing. people are saying, well hinrich and nocioni aren’t going to make the blazers championship contenders… and there’s not a real combo i can think of that would. noc’d probably be fine in a limited role… it’s just a shame about his contract.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Re: Hinrich
Bulls should move him for cap relief if nothing else. They should be able to do somewhat more than that. Definitely should be able to swing something with out the blazers losing anything to close to their hearts.
I agree in the aspect
that Noc is someone who belongs on a team that is “one step away” from winning it all. He could be someone’s missing piece I guess. But I totally disagree that he is underrated. If anything, he’s overrated. His flopping, flailing, and fouling are always mistaken for hustle, grit, determination, and intensity. It’s fake and he has too many people fooled.
Yes, he can occassionally knock down a big 3-pointer or grab a huge rebound, but Noc is a 7th or 8th man who should get no more than 15 min a night, if that. What intangibles are you talking about? Rodman had intangibles, he could get in someone’s head to a degree…Noc just hacks someone until they’re ready to destroy him.
Blaming his mistakes on the Bulls current situation is the biggest stretch I’ve ever heard. I KNEW an excuse was going to pop up sooner or later. The Noc crowd couldn’t use “being tired” or “being injured” as an excuse for his terrible play, so I’m glad you came up with another reason.
Bye bye Noc…
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
"and a coach who will actually coach him the correct way, and you’ll see a very good player"
your points are well taken. “flopping, flailing, and fouling are always mistaken for hustle”. But these are correctable…
I believe Noc has a high basketball IQ, but is not coached and is frustrated.
For example the hard fouls against Al Jefferson, only made Jefferson mad and determine to help his team win the game in the 4th qtr and then overtime. Noc should have been more wise to use a different passive strategy and wait until the game was out of reach with the Bulls winning by a big margin and then send a hard foul message to later put something on Jefferson’s mind for the next meeting.
He needs to be taught to understand the flow of the game, and use his limited basketball ability for its most effectiveness.
man up!
what you just described (about fouling someone and making them more determined)
is a low bball IQ, not a high one.
And if Noc still has to be “taught” things at his age (he’s been playing professionally for many years now), then he’s in worse shape than we all thought.
He’s what, 28, 29? He doesn’t understand game flow by now?
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Jan 30, 2009 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
this is a easy response ...
his entire NBA career has been with the John Paxson “Bulls”.
Mark theses word… Kirk will also be a better player if traded and receives instructions other than a Paxson/VDN green light on every play!
man up!
you do know that he played professionally before the Bulls right?
I said his professional career, not his NBA career.
As much as I would like to blame this on Pax, I can’t. Noc just stinks on his own.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Jan 30, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Noc
Is frustrated with a lot of the lack of defensive intensity from this team. The rotations suck, especially with Gray and Goo_en, but at times Tyrus falls completely asleep (even on his “good games” and is sitting in the perimeter while his man’s in the post), Ben Gordon was playing some D earlier, but has stopped trying to switch or move, leaving his man wide open often in the post….and Noc is often flailing around in the post to stop some of the inside scoring. WHen other guys don’t move and Noc does move (After the offensive team forces a switch that we don’t follow and just have one guy out in la la land) Noc is normally the guy following those fundamentals and he’s left to stop a drive from “his man” who really should have been guarded by the other guy as Noc was forced to follow the other guy’s man.
That’s the scouting report on the Bulls (I know I could write this better, but oh well), it’s do the switch and roll with either BG, or any of the Bulls young Bigs or Goo_en, and every 2nd time you’ll see that one of those 4 will be stuck playing in a zone when the team’s on man to man, leaving the paint wide open.
Noc runs in and hacks the guy, and gets the foul, or Noc is forced into these swithches and his man’s open as it appears 2 guys are covering the guy Noc is covered (yet the Bull who was supposed to cover him is behind him a bit) and Noc is made to look like he missed the defensive play.
It happens far more that way than Noc just missing the d (which happens to Noc don’t get me wrong, as it happens to all, but much more than the norm its the opponent strategizing through our horrid team defense).
But oh well, folks won’t listen and don’t watch for that on here….next few games watch us on the D rotations, we’re a sorry group, and then watch those same rotations when these forced switches are there between Kirk and Noc, and it’s textbook D.
Noc is not good enough to get frustrated.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
Agree (read above)
Again, and I’m sure it’s partially or mostly my fault because I get on these “little issues” to defend certain things about players here that aren’t ever addressed as good.
Noc gets far too frustrated and is god awful when frustrated because he loses all the “good” things he does and just becomes a total liability.
I meant read above
In another similar comment (not the one you responded to yfbb)….wasn’t trying to be an ass, which it seems could have been taken with the last comment.
thanks man.
read it the first time. Just as dumb then.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 4:48 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think I would mind seeing them trade Deng.
Would he push Portland to title contenders? Maybe in a few years once the Lakers get old. I think putting Tyrus at the 3 and Noah at the 4 with a legit center down the road wouldn’t be such a bad idea. If you can land Rudy and Bayless then go for it. They would fit around Rose better then Hinrich and Deng.
I think I'm still going to go with this trade.
Primary pieces: Hinrich/Deng for Fernandez/LaFrentz
It’s a complete rebuilding move. It makes the Bulls a bad team. But it gives them one more chance to get a good coach and rebuild with Paxson’s second draft picks.
Bulls get: Blake, Fernandez, Outlaw, LaFrentz
Blazers get: Hinrich, Deng, Simmons, Ruffin
Blazers lineup:
Hinrich - Blake
Roy - Bayless
Deng - Webster
Aldreidge - Frye - Diogu
Oden - Przzyzybilla
I don’t see how they make a better team.
Bulls lineup (2009):
Rose - Rodriguez
Fernandez - Thabo
Outlaw - Thabo
Thomas - Diogu
Noah
It’s not great, but it’s not bad to build around. Let Gooden and gordon go. Don’t play Hughes. Trade Nocioni. If you could do those, you’d have loads to spend in 2010. I really don’t see it happening for the Bulls, and I’m not even sure I like it, but I think it’s a possibility, and with a strong coach [cough] and direction [cough][cough], it could work.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 30, 2009 10:06 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
And as I've said before...
…if they can get Fernandez while keeping deng and Rose, they should do it in a heartbeat. There isn’t a player on the team I like better than Fernandez other than Rose or Deng. I really think a Rose—Fernandez—Deng trio would be an amazing place to start.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Well, it'd be more than Kirk.
Thomas, Noah, 1st round picks, whatever. I don’t think it’s likely at all, actually, but something they’d have to jump on.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
It would be a great place to start,
especially when you trade Deng and Gordon and #1s in perpetuity for Stoudemire in the offseason!
Rose, Fernandez, Stat.
::drools::
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Do you honestly think that would ever happen,ever?
They might as well just trade franchises,and call themselves the Chicago Trail Blazers
eh?
the Blazers aren’t trading a starter in that scenario. (though Rudy is starter-quality, fo sho)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
Rudy and Rose damn...
Tyrus would have a field day on alley oops.
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 30, 2009 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
There's only been 4 trades in the NBA that's had a 9-player swap.
Two of those trades were multi-team trades, and (most importantly) all four of these trades objectively sucked ass.
Who's complaining about Wallace trade from last year?
I mean, complaining more than they were last year.
The Blazers get better. The Bulls get flexibility. Will it happen? No. Is it more possible than you think? I think so.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
That was an 11-player deal.
I don’t think it was a bad trade, but it sure as hell wasn’t a good one. It was basically a trade crap-for-shit deal anyways, so I guess I can’t really complain on that one.
On whose side?
They still have Bayless, Batum, Diogu, Frye, Pzybilla. They get the Bulls 2nd (Deng) and 4th/5th (Outlaw) best players for their… fourth (Fernandez) and fifth (Outlaw) (or switch ‘em) best players. Add to that their 4th best player is behind their best (Roy). And they’re replacing their 5th best player with someone who’s better (Deng). Yeah, they’re losing something, but they’re getting better. And that should be only name of the game.
No, I don’t think this will happen, but not because I don’t think the Blazers wouldn’t think it’s a cool down.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I pull the trigger on that one
as KP with scarcely a second thought.
PG: Hinrich/Sergio (you had Blake here, though you traded him to the Bulls)
SG: Roy/Bayless
SF: Deng/Webster
PF: LMA/Frye (for shits and giggles, but realistically this would be a nine-man rotation)
C: Oden/Pryzbilla.
That lineup would be filthy. I don’t think that trade would happen, but only because I don’t think you’d be getting enough back.
by BlazersOrBust on Feb 1, 2009 11:04 PM CST up reply actions
Good Start
Best one I did that worked in the trade machine and made some sense on both sides was this:
Kirk, Deng, Nocioni, & Simmons for Raef, Rudy, Blake, Frye, & Outlaw
It’s a huge trade, but Portland could be instant legit contenders and Bulls clean all 3 of their long term deals and get no deals in return that go past 2010:
Bulls starters:
Rose
BG
Rudy
Tyrus
Noah
Rotation:
Blake, Sefolosha, Outlaw, Frye
Bench:
Hughes, Gooden, Gray, Hunter, Ruffin, LaFrentz
Bulls really get a chance to really let the young guys plan and evaluate who stays while having tons of cap space for 2009 or 2010
Portland starters:
Hinrich – Rodriguez
Roy – Bayless
Deng – Webster – Batum
Aldridge – Nocioni – Diogu
Oden – Pryzbilla
That’s a really solid roster who can win now but is also young enough to grow together and compete for quite awhile. They have good character guys, have guys who fit roles and play both ends of the floor, as well as guys who can play multiple positions if they want to go big or small , play fast or slow
Seems like a huge trade and crazy at first, but I wouldprobably do it if I was either team
To recap, the deal according to Quick would involve LaFrentz and two BENCH players currently in the rotation
For a point guard and a small forward that would push the Blazers into potentially contending for a championship in the future (not necessarily immediately). There were previous talks about just one of these players, and now the other one was offered to sweeten the deal.
If I were the Bulls I would ask for Blake back in a deal for Hinrich who is essentially a cheaper and somewhat worse version of him (4 million). But Blake is not bench at all even though he doesn’t start right now due to a small shoulder injury. It also eliminates Webster since he has not been in the rotation all year due to injury.
On the Bulls, the players that would be attractive to the Blazers are Deng and Hinrich. Maybe Hinrich and Sefolosha. Noc sweetens nothing. If you say that ain’t happening for Raef, Outlaw, Sergio (max. Bayless) and maybe a first round pick (or the return of your second round picks from the Ömer Asik trade), then the more likely trading partner would be the cash-strapped Bucks (Jefferson, with Sessions now as the sweetener) or the Bobcats (Wallace, with Felton). Other combos are possible (e.g ATL with Bibby and Williams, Miami with Marion and Chalmers), but more far out.
Milwaukee is the one team that could screw a Bulls/Blazers deal
Redd is out for the year, management could decide to give Skiles a free pass and just tank the season and shed some salary.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 10:38 AM CST up reply actions
The Bucks
Though don’t sell any tickets whatsoever and have little to no built in following, so it’s much easier to just say “tank the season” than it is for teh Bulls and their sponsors and ticket holders.
Living in Milwaukee, one hardly knows the Bucks exist.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 30, 2009 9:01 PM CST up reply actions
I know
That was the case when I was there 7 yrs ago, and my friends still say the same today…..and when I was there the team was supposed to be good with the George Karl era (they were ok, but underperformed)…
they're not going to trade hinrich and deng
for 2 bench players. period. that would be absolutely ridiculous.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Unless the bench player in question is Rudy Fernandez
No one is better than Luol Deng on the Portland bench.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
I agree
I don’t understand this trade if it doesn’t involve Fernandez, who I think is awesome. This would most likely mean Ben Gordon would be gone after this season, but trading Hinrich, and Nocioni for Raef, Fernandez and someone else would be excellent.
I don’t think it would happen though; it would seem like the Blazers would be on the bad end of the deal.
The only Blazer better than Luol Deng is Roy
Paxson would have to be desperate to trade Kirk and Luol for bench and cap relief.
Couldn’t we get the Kings in there so Deng ends up a King, Thabo ends up a Blazer, and we end up with cap relief and the Kings 2009 #1?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 30, 2009 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
Let's not get ahead of ourselves
Right now, Aldridge, Roy, Oden > Deng
At their respective positions, that is.
Aldridge is soft gooey trash.
:-p
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
And Deng got no dog
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
Name one Bull's power forward who is better than LaMarcus in the past 6 years.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
Tyrus Thomas is the greatest PF to ever play the game
You don’t need to watch the games or look up numbers, just take my word for it.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 11:08 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
no way
I’d take Lu ANY DAY over LMA and I’d take him right now over Oden. Maybe in two years I’d change my mind on that one.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Jan 30, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You'd take Lu over Oden right now?
Have you seen what Oden has been doing lately? Do you know how much easier it is to replace a SF than a C?
I'm not 100% convinced, sue me
As of 1/29/09, I’d take Deng’s production over Oden’s. And like I said, ask me again next season, I’ll prob say different. But today, I say Lu.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
And Rudy F
Seems well on the way.
I do think that Deng is better than LMA (I think the system helps LMA a bit more than our lack of system helps Luol) but Roy, Oden and Rudy F seem better than Luol (now or soon to be).
What would lead you to believe
that Pax is not desperate right now? On paper, this team should be as good as or better than the team that went to the second round of the playoffs. But the franchise has failed to develop its young bigs, the guys who got their contracts ended up sucking, and the franchise has utterly failed to hire proper coaching. Pax would not even respond to questions asking him to evaluate the current coaching staff, not even to give lip service about this being a learning experience or their first year together.
If Pax isn’t desperate for some success or to keep his job then something’s not right.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
So when your desperate you
trade your starters for another team’s bench players with little upside? A desperate GM doesn’t want an expiring contract either. It just makes the current team worse and management brings in someone new to spend the cap savings.
First of all, Kirk shouldn't even be a starter.But just to be clear,
I’m not saying Pax will trade Deng. But only that Pax sure as hell better be feeling the pressure to be successful.
When I posted that, I was thinking that Pax should really be fearing for his job.
Of course, I posted my comment about Pax feeling desperation before reading the recent fanshot about Reinsdorf’s comments at the White Sox event. So now I don’t know.
Pax is a good guy and a hard worker; it’s not as if he’s a total bum. He’s no Isaiah Thomas as a GM, for example. And I’m sure that he genuinely wants to succeed. But the failures of this team reflect badly upon him, and I hope he’s thinking outside of the box.
Maybe he’ll never trade Deng and maybe ownership would never let him anyway. Maybe there’s a team out there that vastly overvalues Deng. Maybe Deng’s one of the only pieces that the Bulls have with any value. Who knows.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
OK I agree with your sentiments there
I would like to hope Pax feels pressure to make something positive. To be honest, I don’t think he does sadly.
But for him to wait this long to make a deal, and then finally run out with Hinrich/Deng for random Blazers bench players, he should be fired on the spot. At the same time as the trade is announced would be good for me.
That is right
I’m personally not a huge fan of Deng also due to his habit to disappear in crucial moments, but he does everything really well, would fit perfectly into the group from his age and would instantly start for us for a long time until maybe Webster/Batum would overtake him which is possible but not nearly a given. At the moment still trying to adapt to the NBA not even Rudy is better. But as Mortimer has outlined above the Blazers have gone to great lengths to acquire Rudy at a really really good price first from the Suns and then to get him over from Spain. He draws more fan support than LaMarcus Aldridge, which is wrong in terms of performance but the people just like his play. So the Blazers management would have to think really hard about moving him so quickly again and not “throw him in” with a deal unless they were convinced that is the missing piece to becoming a contender. For that price it’s Hinrich and Deng – or an entirely different deal with a different team as said above.
I really wouldn't worry about Deng's crucial disappearances
if I had Brandon Roy in my 5 man unit.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 30, 2009 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
Right, and thinking about it actually would make him not less valuable to us. We don’t really need another superstar guy who takes 20 shots and the final attempt since McMillan has not many plays for the small forward in his playbook anyway. E.g. no Rudy Gay or Danny Granger needed, as good as they are for their respective teams. Ideally we would have a versatile guy who makes the atrocious perimeter defense better, rebounds long bounces, occasionally drives to the rim and ideally spreads the floor with outside shots (well, the last point is not really Deng’s strenth). Tayshaun Prince would be the prototype.
He can shoot threes, has been adding them to his repetoire.
And he has the dependable ouside jumper [18~20 feet].
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Trading Deng right now could be the dumbest move Pax could make
If it’s Kirk and Noce then I’d be ecstatic. I hope Pax can get Blake over Rodriguez.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
There's absolutely no way they trade Deng.
They just freakin’ signed him for seven years for crying out loud. Him and Rose are here to stay.
I feel the same way
This ‘sweetner’ is clearly Noc. He casts a spell over most league observers and hopefully some talent evaluators.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
Our head scout Mike Born was in Beijing
I’m sure he was mainly there to scout out the Noc. On the other hand, they found Rudy and Batum before most other clubs…
by Norsktroll on Jan 30, 2009 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Did they really find Rudy?
Or were they just more patient than other teams to draft a guy who may or may not come over? Orlando is still waiting on Fran Vasquez to team up with Dwight Howard.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
They first scouted him when he was 17 playing in a junior tournament
But of course it was not a given he would come over and the Suns owner is notoriously cheap. You know that as well as we, you got Deng out of it :)
And the Celtics know as well
Rondo, Deng, and Rudy Fernandez. Using hindsight they fucked up realllllll bad selling those picks.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
And Sergio Rodriguez and James Jones, who since left us again to Miami as a free agent. As well first round draft picks to get OKC to take Kurt Thomas off their hands who was not a bad player at all. And the too expensive Johnson to Atlanta. Man, I would hate my owner too just thinking about the dominant team that could have been…
The Suns organizational management makes me sad.
They were within reach of having this as their starting lineup
Steve Nash
Joe Johnson
Luol Deng
Shawn Marion
Amare Stoudemire
Granted, they let Johnson go because they didn’t want to pay him, and they didn’t want to worry about the finances of the Deng(#7) pick. But if the Suns owner wasn’t such a cheapskate, they would be perennial championship contenders until about 2011 in my opinion. Crazy.
They wouldn't have had the cap space to sign Nash if they'd kept the pick used on Deng (Thank you NBA 2K8)
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
The "fans" at Blazers Edge apparently likes him.
I must admit, I went scrummaging to their blog for a couple of minutes. Apparently it’s blasphemy to criticize players when they aren’t playing well. I just wish you ran a more heart-warming blog, Matt.
If these posters are representative of the fans from the city of Portland, Nocioni and Hinrich will fit greatly over there. That moping will get Hinrich all the ladies he wants.
I think they'd have reason to be legitimately excited over Hinrich+Noc
Hinrich could be really good. And Noc doesn’t have to play much, so he can have good games while not hurting them in the bad ones.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
In what context?
As the starting point over Blake? I don’t know man. I think his quality of play will get better as this season goes on, but it won’t be anything great.
Once the annoucers start talking about
his defense in the playoffs the perception of Kirk will be “He’s Great”.
Kirk will be a lot better with real low post back to the basket options the Blazers have
Kirk doesn’t create space for himself off the dribble very well. Give him a back to the basket big to feed in and feed out and he’ll be much more productive on the offensive end.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 30, 2009 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
Can't you say that about any PG?
Do you know how good Rose would be if he had a true center? Not that he’s anywhere near the level of play, but look at the Paul/Chandler duo.
at PG it could be pretty good
and he’d have talent around him to not have to do much, just bring the ball up, ‘ball movement’, point around like Peyton Manning, etc. He’ll hit a decent amount on open 3s (though not as good as one would hope)
He’d be able to ratched up his D, and people wouldn’t have to make excuses as to why it hurts his offense, as his teammates could handle that.
Plus Portland plays at a slow pace, which wouldn’t expose Hinrich’s fast-break issues.
And….I dunno. Toughness and playoff experience and all that crap.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
Plus
Kirk has been a decent passer in the past on a team that hasn’t had any easy bucket inside guys (Sans arguably Curry in early Hinrich years).
Hinrich with Oden could surprise. I don’t think he’s Rose (As mentioned to death elsewhere on here in that category) but I think he’s an underrated passer.
I think he can do ok in a quick pace, though is more a half court guy.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned much at all
And could very well be pointless of me to point out, but the Blazers have said for a while now that they plan on running more in the near future, which makes sense to me for a team with Aldridge (I know you dudes hates him, but he can run as good as any big and finish) and what Oden will be able to do when he recovers, and Roy, Batum, Rudy, Bayless, Martell… that’s a team that should run.
Blake isn’t a very good fastbreak PG (he seemed to do that okay as a Nugget, but kinda bad as a Blazer). I dunno if the Blazers want to lock themselves into a halfcourt team for forever and a day, with Hinrich.
We’ve run more this year than last, but we still don’t run nearly as much as we should. Part of that is Roy’s deliberate pace, and to not make Oden have to get up and down the court too much. If we had a PG who could push the tempo more, and a system that took advantage of our athletes, the Blazers could get a lot more easy buckets— and again, it’s what management and coaching have said they want for a while now.
They just haven’t done it consistently. I think a more up tempo PG could really help, and Hinrich wouldn’t be that way.
And I know Oden seems more plodding now, but the way he can rebound dominantly and block shots is tailor made for a team that strikes fast, and next year we’ll see an Oden who runs the court like he used to.
Mortimer
Like he did in High School?
And I know Oden seems more plodding now, but the way he can rebound dominantly and block shots is tailor made for a team that strikes fast, and next year we’ll see an Oden who runs the court like he used to.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jan 30, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
Hey, he moved as well as any guard
At the end of his college year, and at the pre-draft combine.
He’s moving a lot smoother now, after a rough first half of the season. Just using all recent micro cases as the precedent to go by, the relatively plodding Oden of now will likely disappear around next year and the “real Oden” level of conditioning and athleticism starts rounding into form.
But, that’s not really on topic right now, except that the eventual Oden should be on a team that takes advantage of his totally dominant rebounding and shotblocking ability.
Mortimer
How do we suit up
Momma Oden’s couch to stop Greg?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 30, 2009 1:50 PM CST up reply actions
Bulls fans making fun of another teams big men?
Oh the irony.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 10:32 PM CST up reply actions
looking at Greg Oden and Jo Noah this year, Noah
is 2 years older, but he does all the same things as Oden, some better, some worse. He blocks more shots and gets more offensive rebounds, but Oden does better on total rebounds. Noah has a better ORtg, but Oden has a higher USG%, but Noah has a better DRtg. The benefit of the doubt goes to Oden because he’s the slightly better player right now and he’s got 2 more years of development to really pass Noah, but it’s interesting to note the differing perceptions of these guys given that they are pretty similar players, Oden just has more upside.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
He was probably talking about Tyrus Thomas
And just because our team is bad, we can’t talk about other teams? Aldridge is good, but if I pulled some comments from people in the summer saying how dominant he was going to be you’d laugh.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 31, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
to me, you can't be a dominant big man if you can't rebound
he doesn’t rebound, so he’s not a dominant big man. His defense is underrated (especially considering how much of a ninny he is), and his face up game is good. His back to the basket game still isn’t much of anything. I don’t quite understand why everyone loves his upside so much. He’s better than Tyrus overall and is more skilled, but Tyrus was the better player his rookie year. The difference has been the ability of the Blazers organization to develop LMA vs. the Bulls organizations actively putting obstacles in Tyrus’s way.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 31, 2009 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
"Tyrus was the better player his rookie year."
Not according to…um….statistics. LaMarcus was playing behind Zach Randolph. Tyrus was playing behind PJ Brown.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 31, 2009 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah he wasn't better
He did have a huge impact on a playoff team. But, this is just silly. Arguing Tyrus/LMA is pointless because our fanbases (well certain factions of the Bulls fanbase) have very different views. The average Bulls fan will agree with you, though.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 1, 2009 12:21 AM CST up reply actions
Its all good
I’m not trying to be a dick. Good win tonight. Keep beating west coast teams.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Feb 1, 2009 12:51 AM CST up reply actions
we don't have good statistics for defense
but the ones we do have showed Tyrus as a GREAT defensive player his rookie year… and LMA was, well not. LMA had it all over Tyrus on offense though, I’ll give you that. I say on balance that Tyrus was better because he was so great on defense.
by fundamentallysound on Feb 1, 2009 12:43 AM CST up reply actions
just a guess
but I’d guess the pace is more a function of McMillan than the personnel.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
That's true too
And he’s been one who hasn’t come through with the “we want to run more” promise.
In his defense, during games, he’s always yelling at his guys to push the tempo and play faster, even asking Roy to push it more. I don’t think the Blazers are going to be the Suns or old Nuggets (nor do I want them to be), but they should really get out for easy buckets more.
McMillan has never had a running team, but his coaching career isn’t THAT old.
KP has assembled a team that should run a lot more, and as of now we don’t. If that is Nate’s doing, hopefully he loosens up a bit like he has in other areas of his coaching (he’s no longer similar to Skiles in being a ball buster all the time, which is a good thing if ya ask me).
Mortimer
And also
Some believe that KP really wants to run more, and Nate is the one holding them back.
I don’t think it’s that simple at all, but it could be true.
I think it’s less likely KP will get a PG who doesn’t fastbreak well, if that’s truly how he wants to play. Nate could very well want a Hinrich, halfcourt PG and prefer that style, but if KP doesn’t then Nate won’t get what he wants.
I don’t think we need a Steve Nash wizard on the fastbreak type to run well, we just need to commit to it more and push the tempo on missed shots and turnovers. Last year, our rebounding sucked, this year, we’re one of the best rebounding teams in the league (the Oden effect). We couldn’t afford to have people get out on a missed shot, since we needed everyone to rebound the ball. That isn’t the case anymore, but we still sorta play like it.
Has Hinrich been THAT bad on the break? I’d bet he’d still be an improvement over how we’ve run it the last two seasons.
Mortimer
he's certainly not BAD on the break
he doesn’t turn the ball over or anything.
But he doesn’t really push it quick, advance the ball well, or throw long lobs and other fancy-pants things. He’s also not a great finisher at the rim. I actually think Gordon’s better at that full-tilt situation that he.
Hinrich’s not a fast break PG, which was all I was saying. So in a slower paced team that’s less relevant.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
and remember
this is more crystallized after watching Derrick Rose, who explodes in fast break situations. So that’s an unfair standard for Hinrich.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
ya there is a huge difference
between what the bulls need to do pace wise to score points a lot of the time and Portland capitalizing on opportunities.
The Blazers could run
But the coaching staff seems content to plod it along. Then again, considering how poor they are on defense, limiting possessions isn’t exactly a bad thing.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 1:34 PM CST up reply actions
I'd be jacked to get Hinrich
Noc…not so much. Perhaps hanging out around here has just soured me on the idea of acquiring him, but the guy seems like a more aggravatingly European version of Travis, and Trav is the one Blazer who makes me want to tear my hair out. I think the deal is most likely: a) not going to happen; and b) for Jefferson and Sessions. Noc ain’t a sweetener, and few deals make sense for both sides involving Deng/Hinrich.
by BlazersOrBust on Feb 1, 2009 11:09 PM CST up reply actions
What I'm thinking [because I'm pessimistic]
is that we’re trading Hinrich and Deng for Raef, Batum, and Bayless[/Fernandez]. Possibly Diogu too [to match salaries]:
1981341627503204454&teams=22224444&te=&cash=." target="_blank">http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=24291981341627503204454&teams=2222444~4&te=&cash=.
I’m … ambivalent to this trade. I don’t know. We do kind of need to get an identity though, and this will cement us as a developing team. And I’ve liked what I’ve seen of Batum so far.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Cough.
This is better.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=24291981341627503204454&teams=22224444&te=&cash=.
I can’t do it. Fail.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Bulls fans lets pray
That Kirk and Noc are being discussed, cap relief and some of the Blazers young talent would be nice
Just a thought: You do have a 5 million trade exception from last year's dealings, right?
Assistant GM Tom Penn is a master of using things like that :)
E.g. could it be Rodriguez, Outlaw and LaFrentz for Hinrich and Sefolosha? That deal falls short by $2.5 million on the trade machine, but you could absorb Travis’ salary with the exception. Problem is as nice as Thabo he hardly qualifies as a final piece in the puzzle over who we already have, so not at all sure that’s what he was talking about.
A final piece of the puzzle?
Delusions of grandeur my friend.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 30, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
Not my words
Yeah, Quick is a really solid beat writer, but the Oregonian guys had strange ideas before over who would make the Blazers a top team. We have bad memories about a “Draft the Stache” movement. Right, that would have helped…
My mistake then...
I think the Blazers are a good team, far better than the Bulls right now, but I’m curious to see how they will finally perform in the playoffs (a whole different level). In my opinion they will have huge matchup problems with the Lakers, but I’m not exactly saying anything revolutionary there.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 30, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
We hope to make the playoffs this year to learn
Don’t think it will be the Lakers, but whoever it would be most fans are well aware that it will be exit in the first or latest in the second round. When an opponent has time to adapt and devises a strategy to take away option A (Roy driving to the rim) and B (making LaMarcus into an outside jump shooter) over a playoff series, then what do you have? Outside shooting and hoping that a bench player gets hot or Oden has a 20 -10 night. That’s something only experience and further improvement will bring.
FWIW
(which isn’t much) we’ve played the Lakers real tough during the regular season the last two years, the season-opening debacle aside. I would much rather that we play the Lakers in the playoffs than the Spurs, for example. Pau and LaMarcus can try to out-Charmin each other with fadeaways and minimal-contact hooks, and Bynum and Oden can square off in a battle of young big men whose reputations vastly outweigh their on-court performance. Must-see TV!
by BlazersOrBust on Feb 1, 2009 11:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Bulls are not paying the tax this season.
so that’s a problem.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
Just a thought but...
Wouldn’t paying the tax this year, but shedding millions of future bad contract dollars (ie: Nocioni) be the most fiscally responsible thing to do?
Just curious.
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 30, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
DEFINITELY
I wish they would do that. They could use their ability to absorb one year of tax hit to get long-term salary off the books.
But I don’t think they will. They would’ve offered more to Ben Gordon then if they weren’t so firmly against paying the tax one season.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
Meanwhile...
We continue to draw decent ticket revenue, and Derrick Rose has the #9 selling jersey in the league.
Bulls management wants their salary cake and to eat it too.
Way to stick it to the fans!
Nocioni has an Olympic gold medal, a bronze medal and a EuroLeague MVP, and now… His legs are broken! Coming to an arena near you.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 30, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
If the Bulls are taking back more than a couple hundred thousand dollars, they're tax territory.
And that’s no-go.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Quick mentions a second, minor trade with a Western Conference team
What if that’s with SAC for Miller?
Then Deng and Kirk for La F, Pryz and Rudy makes sense
Thabo becomes our SF.
But I don’t know how Deng’s BYC problem would be handled.
Sefolosha is excellent at the amount of minutes he's receiving right now, and as a reserve.
Any more, and it’s a disaster. Do you forget the start of this season?
Thabo starting: 40FG %
Thabo off the bench: 52.2FG%
Maybe it was actually the opposite of the magic starting juice people were talking about.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Possibly
Also possible: me a millionaire. Stay tuned and watch this drama unfold.
by NittanyCub on Jan 30, 2009 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Or he's just not that good
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
that's my guess.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 30, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
Perhaps...
I don’t know why, but I just see alot of unrealized potential in him. And since he’s got the Pip build and is supposedly a great guy and hard worker I see a real possibility of him developing into a real contributor. I think he needs an offseason of hard work within the framework of a solid system, no more offseasons of traveling abroad or having babies.
He’s also been jerked around by inconsistent roles and minutes… even as a starter at the beginning of the year, it’s not like he started in the preseason, right? He got the nod by default bc of injuries.
Fingers crossed I guess.
He only spent a couple of weeks home last summer
the rest in Chicago working on his game (shot, adding more arc, etc).
The Game chose him !
Combo's coming back with Raef
1. Batum & Blake
2. Batum & Rudy
3. Outlaw & Rudy
4. Outlaw & Batum
Kirk, Noce, & Thabo
Kirk, or Deng
(it would be crazy if BG was involved because nobody’s talking about him)
*How does BAB hall of famer CHANNING FRYE* Not end up in any of the 200 posts
Would you make this deal. . .
Bulls Get:
LaFrentz’s expiring contract
Jerryd Bayless as insurance against Ben Gordon signing elsewhere
Channing Frye – just all around awesomeness. . .
Blazers Get:
El Cheapo Floppo (Noc’)
The Mopey Iowan (Hinrich). . .
All around Awesomeness
Now all we need is Sane and the championships would line up…
I’d rather see Batum then Bayless. Here is one with BG
and Kirk
Ugh. . .
I dont like Webster or Outlaw. Hinrich should be worth more than either of them. I would love it if Rudy were part of the deal
right here:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1981245632042754454&teams=2222444&te=&cash=
Rudy
I like Rudy too, but I would push for Batum. I also think Rudy might be overvalued. Batum could be the large 2 gaurd of the future that the Bulls have desperately seeked. Deng, Batum, Rose would all be scarey young.
Webster and Outlaw are pretty much the same play, so you would think if Portland would be taking Noce’s contract. Outlaw would be coming back. Outlaw for Noce would actually be kind of funny because they both get lost on defense.
Batum at the 2 is a waste
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 10:42 PM CST up reply actions
wow
use a little logic please.
Your trade has the best player going to chicago, and it also has chicago getting good salary dump. Thus implying that the best GM in the league got fleeced by one of the worst. Now rethink your idea, does this trade make any sense?
P.S. both webster and outlaw are worth more than kirk each, not including how much cheaper each of them are.
Logic: Webster+Outlaw > Kirk?
Too much Kirk & Noce hate around here, maybe stay up past your bedtime to watch a little West coast ball. Webster & Outlaw have the exact same game. Webster has a better contract, and Outlaw is out of favor in Portland because of his defense and decision making, and he is practically making the midlevel. Noce can split time at the three, and Webster/ Noce is a stronger combo than Webster/ Outlaw because they bring different attributes to the table. I did leave out from my earlier post a possible protected draft pick going to Portland, so you got me there.
Secondly, Kirk is very valueable but not just to the Bulls. He is not the franchise player, but can help Portland compete for the next 5 years on playoffs runs. He can play next to Roy or Bayless. Also, Batum is still many years from his prime and young teams don’t play to well in the playoffs. KP loves draft picks.
Finally, don’t bring up money with Portland because it is not an option, and Raef’s expiring deal is just a tool for KP to upgrade the roster. If I was to rate the value of the players in this trade it would go. Kirk, Batum, Noce, Draft Pick, Outlaw/ Thabo, Raef. You don’t like the trade fine, but your the one who looks nuts thinking WebOut is better than Kirk.
Webster and Nocioni are the same player
Spot up shooters. Outlaw is a slasher. Outlaw/Webster is a much more diverse combo than Webster/Nocioni.
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 10:46 PM CST up reply actions
Nicolas Batum. . .
. . .have a seat over there next to Thabo Sefalosha. Omer Asik will be joining you shortly. I think the Bulls would be a wee bit weary of the foreigners. At least with Rudy, his “flashes” have been more noticeable. With Rudy & Rose, you’re two thirds of the way towards Parker/Ginobili/Duncan. I can dream, can’t I?
Damn, you really believe. . .
. . .Parker is that much better than Rose? I’ve always attributed the Spurs dynasty to them having the best PF to ever lace em up. I think when it’s all said & done, Rose will rank higher than Parker. Seriously, the only thing Parker has over Rose is that sick tear drop runner. Rose’s court vision & passing is already ahead of Parker’s. . .
Sorry if I was unclear.
I agree that Duncan is the best PF ever. I was saying that Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker were not of equal value (i.e., not equal thirds). And I certainly think that Rose is better than Parker (I mean, if he isn’t already, he’s close, and he’ll certainly be better in his prime).
Even projecting Rose as the best PG ever, however (which I don’t think he will be), he’s not going to have the same impact as Duncan. Rudy & Rose looks like a great backcourt, but I’d rather have Duncan & Ginobili or Duncan & Parker. This was my general point: even with Rudy & Rose, you’re still missing a significant piece of the puzzle.
Thank you for clarifying
If it’s any consolation, Reinsdorf took to the airways this AM to let it be known that even he realizes our lack of a post presence is killing our team. Everyone except for Rose should be put out on the block in hopes of filling this void. . .
Man this rumor took over...
and we still don’t know if the team was the Bulls?
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 30, 2009 4:58 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
LOL
This is the best post in here!
"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan
by bennythebull on Jan 30, 2009 5:27 PM CST up reply actions
Why would the Blazers want Hinrich
Blake is just as good as Hinrich(if not better) and is a better 3pt shooter. Blake is pretty decent, he can put up the same numbers as Kirk and is more confident.
The biggest reason
Is Hinrich’s defense, and he is more athletic than Blake.
Blake has played very well this season, however. He’s still pretty underrated league wide. He’s almost as big of a reason as Joel’s good play when subbing for Oden for why the Blazers have been doing so well.
Watching the two players back to back (Hinrich/Blake), I think it’s easy to see Hinrich moves a lot better, he’s quicker, he is better at staying in front of his man, and plays good, tough defense. Blake tries, but he just can stay in front of the quick guards.
Hinrich also seems better at creating his own shot, either a jumper or layup, but neither are what I’d call “good” at it. Hinrich is just better.
Blake has been dead-eye from 3 point land for 3 out of the last 4 years, and that’s a requirement for a PG with Roy and LMA and Oden. Whoever the PG is, they gotta be able to shoot open jumpers and make the defense pay, or everything gets a lot tougher.
Mortimer
Because this is the first above average season from Steve Blake
And he’s 28 years old.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 6:55 PM CST up reply actions
So is Hinrich
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 30, 2009 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
Sam
Sam:
I think so and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Blazers follow that strategy. They are always tough to deal with in tending to highly value their players, and they know they are not a serious contender yet with Greg Oden feeling his way through his rookie season. So what’s the rush? They have done a good job, it seems from the outside, of cultivating a group that cares and plays together thanks to coach Nate McMillan. They have pieces to move and expect they’ll be aggressive after the season.
new rumor
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 1, 2009 2:23 PM CST reply actions
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1981~741~3030~557~454&teams=20~20~22~22~4&te=&cash=
Kirk for a cost-effective salary dump.
by fundamentallysound on Feb 1, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
theres a few real issues with this
1. Miller helps Portland for this year & this year only(unless they resign him)
2. Philly is looking like a solid bet for 6th seed or so, are the mailing it in? Hanging their hopes on Sergio? Another trade?
3. Maybe this is less of an issue, but a lot of the Blazer posters have talked about how important Blake’s 3 point shooting is. Miller isnt a threat their at all.
Maybe 1 isnt much of an issue for them if Bynum is done for the season?
I think #1 is fine for them because they can make a run this year with Miller and then use the money to try to make
some sort of signing in the off-season. I do think they can get better value for the RLEC tho.
by fundamentallysound on Feb 1, 2009 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
ya
obviously swapping him for miller only costs them the 5mil or so insurance would be paying on the contract so its definitely better then nothing(depending on other pieces).
But the priority is obviously creating a longer term window, unless its something that gives them a really good shot just this year.
I'd love to get Miller
steady veteran PG with good size and an excellent distributor — almost a perfect fit for the mold the Blazers want. That #3 is a pretty big point though. It’s difficult to overstate how much better the Blazers play when they’re sinking threes: Roy has room to slash, you can’t double-team LMA with impunity, and Oden doesn’t get double-boxed so he grabs more offensive boards.
I would think that any trade for Miller wouldn’t happen unless we knew for sure that Martell was coming back healthy this year (as he’s an upgrade from range over Batum and would help counterbalance the presumed loss of Blake) and/or unless some kind of extension were agreed upon in advance. Giving away trade chips for a 30-game rental isn’t really KP’s MO.
by BlazersOrBust on Feb 1, 2009 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
Miller can't (and won't) shoot the 3
He’s not an offensive threat. Kirk isn’t either, but he’s at least capable of shooting above 35% from the arc.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 3, 2009 7:30 PM CST up reply actions
Blazers cannot trade Outlaw to the Bulls
His cousin reads fan boards. Link-o
"Only dunk and go to the defense." Rudy Fernandez
no worthy return.
the blazers aren’t going to give up their core. maybe we can unload hughes or noc for batum, but there really won’t be a noticeable return.
whatever.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Feb 3, 2009 3:03 PM CST reply actions
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