Kirk Hinrich Since Coming Back
by Andrew7 on Jan 29, 2009 10:04 AM CST
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Print[From the Fanposts. This was on my mind (thus the bump) after last night's game, with Hinrich putting in his second straight absolute stinker (1-11, 3pts in his last 51 minutes on the court) while VDN pulled Gordon at extremely odd times simply because he feels he HAS to get Hinrich in the game.
Hinrich’s alright enough at both guard spots to be the backup to each. The problem is that Vinny views Hinrich as some important high-minute piece regardless of who's playing well, and as a longer-term problem, he's paid as such. I don't see Hinrich staying all season helping him OR Gordon, leaving one of the few reasons to keep Hinrich around as simply future leverage against Gordon in contract talks. The problem with that is that in terms of the future SG role next to Rose, Hinrich's not much of a fallback plan -ed.]
Since Kirk Hinrich has come back from injury, he is averaging 8.7 PTS on 51.6 TS%, 4.9 APG, and 3.1 RPG.
When he first came back, his defense was at an absurdly high level. Since then, it has become very mediocre.
With those numbers, the jerking around of Gordon, which has affected Gordon for the worse, to make room for Hinrich's minutes, has been unwarranted.
We now have strong evidence of who Kirk Hinrich is. He is not that very good player that showed up in the 2006-2007 season, who scored with very good efficiency. That year was the aberration for Kirk Hinrich. He is the inefficient scorer that we thought him to be.
However, this year might be even worse, as Kirk Hinrich's shots have been pretty much all wide open. This is a player who cannot score efficiently despite being wide open, that's a problem.
There are some simple truths that have to be recognized regarding Kirk Hinrich.
1. He is a poor offensive player.
2. He is a solid to good defensive player.
3. He is a point guard. Our franchise player is a point guard.
4. He is not a good fit next to Derrick Rose at shooting guard.
5. Ben Gordon is a far superior shooting guard.
6. Despite all of this, Kirk Hinrich's trade value is still high.
It is pretty obvious what needs to be done for the good of the team, but will Paxson finally follow through? Or is his man love too strong?
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Because you take the best talent available when you have the #1 pick.
Pax probably thought Kirk could still be a good piece, a combo guard who can play significant minutes at both guard spots. That’s open for debate (I tend to agree with Andrew 7 that he doesn’t seem to be a good fit currently with Rose, although he hasn’t had much time to adjust his game due to the injury; we might be jumping to a conclusion there).
I understand the draft for the best available
And I do like Kirk and think he’s being slightly discredited (we say that Ben’s numbers have been shaken by Kirk’s PT, well Kirk’s also trying to get back to form after missing 2+ months and having his time jerked around by Ben—it goes both ways (I do think Ben’s a bit on the more important, but he’ll be more expense….)…..
Anyway though the issue is you draft who’s best available and work out the kinks etc afterwards…..
Considering we had such huge holes in the frontcourt and had a very tradable Kirk on the roster (and some nice young pieces) I am shocked that Pax didn’t pursue the Kirk trade when it was available…..
Using the excuse that he thought his team’s PG might be a good enough combo guard next to Rose is just a rationalization that really Pax was worried perhaps after the weak summer showing that Rose wasn’t as ready as he thought to play at the next level…..
It’s that kind of worry that has crippled this team.
I like both players, and I do think Rose was the right choice….but it’s a sign of the poor mgmt that Paxson didn’t pursue a trade this summer because he was afraid of what might happen with the Gordon situation….YOu trade for a need and figure out a way to plug int he whole….especially when we saw adequate SG start PT for Thabo and would still have had the chucker as at least an adequate filler had Gordon left….and to be honest, all signs were BG was staying after no huge contracts came his way because of Paxson saying he’d keep him…..and having Kirk go, definitely would have further given creedence to that thought.
Just disappointing. I do think perhaps a Kirk trade was on the horizon after this delay for early Dec because of how well Rose did off the gate, but then the injury happened…now it’s a bit less likely this year because of the injury and Kirk’s value will likely drop by the day.
I really see little reason it didn't happen in the offseason
though maybe Pax was just hoping Hinrich would play his way into better value? But that’s dawdling that’s too risky (as it turned out) with not much reward. Hinrich’s likely done little for his value since then, unless GMs around the league only read KC Johnson and Sam Smith.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
I understand the reason it didn't happen in the offseason.
Ben Gordon could have left in free agency and the Bulls would have been stuck with Hughes, Thabo and Rose as their entire back court. Had Ben Gordon signed the offer much earlier, Paxson would have had the freedom to trade Hinrich during the Summer. Gordon waited until the deadline, thus Hinrich was kept through the offseason as a safety net.
If we are to believe the rumors, there were talks surrounding Hinrich prior to his injury, but once he got injured, those talks died. There is a slim chance (10% – 0% depending on who you believe) that those talks will resume before the deadline.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
So what if Hughes,Thabo and Rose were the entire backcourt?
For that matter, Gordon was on the QO, so he couldn’t just leave.
What do you so what?
From the perspective of the GM, would you want to enter the season with your only point guard being a rookie?
Gordon could have signed an offer that the Bulls were not willing to match…he just did not receive such an offer.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
What do you *mean* so what?
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
I mean I don't care.
And I don’t find your arguments to the contrary to be persuasive.
Most obviously, if they’d traded Kirk at some point earlier in the summer and not brought a PG back in the trade, it’d give them more time to sign a cheap backup.
Yes I would
Especially when the albatross contract next to him (Hughes) performed reasonably as a PG in spots in Cleveland.
Rose is a #1 pick overall and we picked him despite having at worst an avg PG already locked into a big contract and having serious concerns about our frontcourt.
I’d say given that, yes I would have rolled the dice on him.
Mike Wilks was always available.
until he wasn’t.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions
first of all
trading Hinrich could’ve gotten some guard in return.
And also, if they let Gordon go in Free Agency they’re up shit creek anyway, so why not roll with Rose/Hughes/Thabo?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 3:04 PM CST up reply actions
And Thabo
was playing decent at holding the fort as a starter last year….
And while we’re down on Hughes for his “kill the offense antics” he is a suitable starter next to a better 1 guard…..
He’s not BG or Kirk, but he’s not completely awful….now let the “Hughes is the worst player to ever play in the league and majoyenrac is a complete moron statements come a-flying”.
I’m glad he’s sitting though given how jack-em-up he became in a hurry after Pax went public saying Larry can pursue a trade.
"Hughes is the worst player to ever play in the league and majoyenrac is a complete moron"
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
You wanted the comments to come flying!
I filled a need.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Larry Hughes has had at least 3 seasons that are...
…better than that of anyone on our current roster. If we had moved Hinrich and BG left and we were left with Rose/Thabo/Hughes and eventually signed a veteran PG like Hunter, I don’t think we’d be any worse off than we are right now. Although I think had we moved Hinrich this past offseason, it would have been an indicator to Gordon that the Bulls did value him and he may have taken a smaller deal or been more inclined to negotiate after this season. Because as things stand, BG is a MUCH better man than me if he decides to negotiate with Chicago again this summer.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jan 30, 2009 8:11 AM CST up reply actions
Well if you look at the stats later in this thread.
Hughes only had one season that was better than anyone else on the Bulls has had…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
Keeping HInrich > some guard in return.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
words > '>'
As far as your point: keeping everyone is the best option, I suppose. But there’s the tax, with Gordon gone the Bulls are clearly rebuilding and don’t need a 28 year old, $9m backup to their franchise player.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly.
I understand why Pax didn’t make a move last Summer, but I would be hard pressed to understand it if he fails to move Hinrich this summer.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
What I said applies to last summer.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
is there a mix up of words between "understand" and "agree"
I understand why he didn’t as well. He said so. I just think it’s dumb, given all the other circumstances.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Also, being from Chicago, Rose had the best marketing potential.
JR does care about his pocket book.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 29, 2009 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Whoever turned out to be the better player.
Had the most marketing potential imo.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
You're thinking long term.
Remember, this team only thinks short term. Bad team last year, local basketball god. at the ver least, I would guess Reinsdorf thought of who would sell more season tickets this next season. (not that he necessarily talked about that to Paxson.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
you're both wrong, it didn't matter
what sold tickets was talking about the fans! love it live!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 9:01 PM CST up reply actions
And definitely
Those radio adds where Hinrich dribbles past Godzilla, and Ben Gordon takes on the devil. When I heard those I locked in for 10 years of season tickets…..
I really can’t believe how godawful they are…..
I thought BG taking on the devil referred to contract negotiations with JR?
Taking on Godzilla is hardly original .
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 30, 2009 12:11 AM CST up reply actions
I guess you're right
LOL.
Now I’d like to see Tyrus block King Kong’s shot in the next radio promo spot.
#1 picks in general
Have huge marketing potential….and I think Beasley’s sexy college stats screamed marketing potential coming in.
I think Rose was picked because he is the better player.
We should argue about this more...
…because we can definitely figure out who is right.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
ok, i know you're way biased towards ben
but must we have an anti-kirk post from you every day?
i’m not really in one camp or the other on this issue, i think kirk will go over the summer, and ben, i don’t know. but i’m not writing this because i’m in the pro-kirk camp is all.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Jan 29, 2009 10:26 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I did forget
that something similar was posted 2 days ago.
So…I dunno. I bumped it because of last night between Hinrich’s useless play and VDN pulling Gordon after he made a 3-pointer.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
i don't really have a problem with the bump
but this guy does have his own blog where he can rag on hinrich all he wants.
i’m pretty neutral on the hinrich issue since i think the best time to trade him will be at the end of the season. but i just don’t need to read posts every day from this guy talking about hinrich’s latest performance and why that indicates he should be off the team.
he was terrible last night though, i’m certainly not disputing that.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Can we get a Lu is worth his contract post now too?
Something tells me no one is gonna bother to write that one, let alone two, no agenda there. No conspiracy theory fun! Hooray for Bulls Management! Hooray for all our terrific Beat Writers! Hooray for all the extra fun for the Arm Chair GMs!
Luol did play better than his contract value last night,
but then again it was against the Clips, so maybe just up to his contract value.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 29, 2009 6:05 PM CST up reply actions
he's been playing great all month. look at his numbers for january. look at them for december even.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 29, 2009 10:58 PM CST up reply actions
I second that
He’s really being aggressive and is crashing the boards making everything else in his game that much easier…..hope he keeps it up.
thats not the point
Lu’s been great
1. you’d actually be starting more of a discussion all tho you’d rather slam your head into the wall
2. you wouldn’t convince anyone who didnt all ready mostly agree with you.
Since coming back from injury, Deng has been playing very well!!!
No doubt about it. I’m far more willing to live with Deng with the way he’s been playing since he’s been back. It’s a beautiful thing to see him gliding all over the court and being the factor I’ve begged for him to be.
BUT…I’m not satisfied. I look at guys like Danny Granger and Kevin Durant (who by the way is one of the 3 most impressive 20 year old in BASKETBALL HISTORY!!!) and I get a little antsy. I want Deng to strive to get to the level of these guys. I’m not sure he can though, but I’m much happier with the 18 ppg and 8 rpg he’s been giving us since coming back from injury. More importantly, his mindset seems to be different. But the challenge now is to keep it up. I’m not gonna shower praise on him because of a few good games. I’m not as easily swayed as many of you here are because I know that at this level just about every player is capable of stretches of good games. It’s the NBA after all and everyone in the league is capable of bringing it! But I will give him props for stepping up to the plate as of late.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jan 30, 2009 8:23 AM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't say he's a poor offensive player
He’s a starting level PG for half the teams in the league. On this team though he’s completely superflous and takes away minutes from Gordon, one of the better players.
And he makes starting level money, so he’s a waste of cap space playing 25MPG. He needs to be shipped out ASAP.
by madvillian on Jan 29, 2009 10:28 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
He's a 4th option
or a 3rd option on a team with dominant scores (think Shaq/Kobe). He doesn’t hurt you at all, you just can’t count him to produce 15-20pts consistently. It’s all based on matchups.
Someone's been reading the VDN autobiography I see...
It’s all based on matchups.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jan 29, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions
next year
So they trade kirk and watch ben walk in offseason and we’re back to the larry hughes project at the 2-guard….good plan. Trading hinrich would give BG all of the leverage in the world this off season, that is assuming he even talks to the bulls about resigning, which i don’t think he will.
who cares about leverage
just freaking pay BG. plus, we all know BG thinks quite highly of himself, so I highly doubt he’s gonna buy the Bulls’ argument during negotiations of “well Kirk’s here so we don’t need you…” all that’s likely to do is piss him off
I completely expect them to do exactly that
heck, they’re doing it now based on the playing rotation.
Paxson said before the season that he didn’t trade Kirk because of uncertainty with Gordon. With Paxson saying so little, it’s pretty amazing that one of the few things he does reveal is so misguided (though some reasoning could be he didn’t know how good Rose would be early)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
Well, Rose did look completely raw and unprepared for the NBA in his summer league games.
Obviously something happened over the summer, based on the positive comments from the Olympic team players for his play on the prep team (and his Oct/Nov play for the Bulls).
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 29, 2009 6:09 PM CST up reply actions
I'd much
Rather be at a project at a 2, then another year of a project at the 4 and 5 spots.
I mean Rose is emerging, and it’s few team’s that have 2 studs at the 1-2 spot. Many have a really good 1 or a really good 2 and then a decent role playing counterpart.
Sef is at least that role player, and Larry can give us some scoring punch, and there were better than avg odds especially after trading Kirk, then Ben would have stayed.
Just another Pax blunder, much as I like and respect Kirk.
So you go out and get a good SG then.
Hinrich isn’t one of them. If Paxson loses all leverage with Gordon, and Gordon demands $80 million and Paxson simply won’t pay that, fine. Hinrich isn’t the answer at SG. Keeping him isn’t going to make the team all that much better than simply having Hughes or Sefolosha. What it will do is make Hinrich a year older and likely looking worse. All at $7-9 million more for the next three years.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Ben Gordon's Leverage
Is what other teams are willing to offer him on the open market. Nothing more than that really.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
Hughes will never be back at the two
It’s pretty obvious.
If Ben and Kirk are gone, I say let Thabo take over at the 2.
I know it’s not a popular choice but hey, it’s not like they’re going anywhere next season either.
I like Thabo.
I’d actually be OK with that.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Kirk is an average PG who could start for a lot of teams. He was doing well as a 6th man earlier, but his shot is not falling now. And his D is still overrated. He is trade bait, this team needs an overhaul. I’m sure even if Ben and Kirk leave, we can find something passable for a year and then go for someone like a Joe Johnson or if possible D Wade.
Get rid of all of these guards.
We know that Ben is gone, come April. They oughta trade him now, while they can get something for him. Dump Hughes. He no longer puts up (anywhere near) the numbers he did early in his career. (Nobody wants him, though.) If Kirk’s trade value is high (God only knows why), f*ck it. Trade him too! None of the three I’ve mentioned suck, by any means. They’ve all proven talent at some point or another in their careers – they just are not working for us. Rose has been the only bright spot this year.
"It's not how you enter your sport, it's how you exit." - Dr. J
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last night's rotations of Ben were very weird
In the first qrtr, Ben was the very first person to get subbed out (which was strange in itself), and what made it even stranger was that it occurred around the 3:30 min mark. That was a definite head-scratcher. At the time, he had 1 foul, so foul trouble could not be an excuse there. It could only be seen as an excuse to get Kirk in the game.
Vinny did the same thing in the 3rd quarter. What made that particular substitution 10x worse was that it happened immediately after Ben splashed a huge 3-pointer. At the next dead ball Ben was out. He then returned at the 10 or 11 minute mark in the 4th. Huh? Why not leave him in? Especially after he drains a three? Again, Vinny felt the “need” to put Kirk in.
Kirk’s minutes should not be coming af Ben’s expense, plain and simple. If anything, he should be subbing for Rose. I can see if Ben were in foul trouble, but that hasn’t been the case.
In Sam’s chat yesterday he kept saying that Hinrich has value in the league. I honestly don’t see how right now. At the same time, I really hope he does (I hope a dumb enough GM won’t notice) so that he can be shipped out.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
we also keep hearing that '0-6' Nocioni has value too
if that’s true, it’s criminal that Paxson hasn’t moved them. I’d like to see THAT article after the trade deadline.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
True, but I was happy
with the final breakdown of minutes. I take what I can get from VDN. 26 minutes for Hinrich or whatever he got seems fair.
If he didn't distribute them like he was watching the game blindfolded,
it might even be good.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Exactly
Ben got 34+ minutes while sitting out garbage time. I dont think you can infer too much from this stuff other than VDN is a very bad coach. Kirk is a slightly above avg player who played a few real good games when he return, followed them up with a few real bad games(maybe VDN gpot to coaching him), hopefully he gets back to being above avg soon. And hopefully we can trade him for something more useful, as soon as thats actually a possibility.
Ben played the first 8 minutes
Kirk checked in a couple minutes after Baron did. Baron looked very good the first few minutes he played. After that he sucked regardless of who was in.
http://popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/gameflow.cgi?date=20090128&game=CHILAC
I also noticed that
Hinrich subbed in once Baron Davis came into the game. Originally I see the move as ok by VDN. Baron is a beast when he chooses to play, and that early in the game I guess I understand putting a better defender on him.
But no excuse once Baron started stinking it up… no reason not to play BG up until garbage time rolled around.
I think Baron had three points and 4 assists… not sure Hinrich gets the cred for that — I think it was more his rustiness.
Press the trade button. At this point no one will be missed!
Baron outscored Kirk 3-2. ;)
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 29, 2009 6:25 PM CST up reply actions
Let me explain
Ben was subbed out because he wasnt hitting anything and D-Rose was on fire.
Also
What everyone here is failing to see is what we’ve all been bitching about for the whole season, rotations, rotations, rotations.
Vinny clearly has a sub pattern in mind (while IMO i think it sucks ass and he should be fired) but he pretty much does the same thing most nights. Sure its not always the same and some situations vary (like the gaurd rotation last night for example, would you have pulled DR or BG at that point? I know Matt will say DR but common sense says BG)
Last night Bg wasnt playing very well (sure he hit a 3 right before he subbed out, good eye Matt) but he also finished the game with what 11 points? Gimme a break he played like shit last night (lets start a thread about how many times he turns the dam ball over or plays 1 on 1 basketball)
Noc and Kirk have been playing like crap lately and it shows, BIG TIME. Its weird cause to me it seems like everyone not starting gets these entitlement minutes. I completely disagree with this strategy. The starting 5 should play majority of the minutes with only spot minutes for the back ups. Its almost like VDn is coaching 1st graders and wants to make sure everyone plays similiar minutes so no parents bitch.
If that’s the case do this, play your starting 5 for the first quarter and your back ups for the 2nd then play your starting 5 for the third and your scrubs in the 4th (then we can watch kirk and Noc blow games for us.)
Not sticking up for VDN but he’s doing what a coach should do. Play guys at certain times in games and do it with consistency so the players then learn there roles and are more prepared to play.
Its really sad though because a a normal NBA team plays its best players for as much as they can unless its a blow out win/loss injuries, bad games etc.
But this is the pre-school baby buls here and we need to be very careful not to upset anyones tummy!
BTW i hate VDN and all this KH hate, he’s a 6th man currently, isnt that enough for all you haters? What will you all do when they start him again over BG cause of BG’s issues (he has plenty)? We might have some fans going postal.
KH has value around the league but probably not as much as pax would have liked, over the summer when the BG thing gets straightened out we will know more.
I personally want Thabo to start at 2 gaurd (just get him a shooting coach please for the love of god!) He’s one of the best basketball players on the bulls.
VDN drives me
crazy with his subs. It seems like everytime a player is doing good and getting hot he pulls them. I just don’t get it.
short vs long term view
I think the problem with the Bulls is that they have let short term success cloud the long term future of the team (which you could argue with recent draft picks they don’t have much long term focus)
Kirk, Deng, Noc were all big reasons for Bulls successful playoff run but in the long term with current roster Kirk and Noc have no become overpaid backups. As for Kirk, it shouldn’t be arguement between him and BG at SG. It should simply be that the Bulls need better players and if they are to sign better players and stay under cap they can’t have so much $s tied into avg players at so many positions so someone must go.
Who cares is BG has leverage if Kirk leaves. If you can improve team by getting rid of Kirk then you don’t wait. BG should have no leverage in any case unless the Bulls are dump and give it to him. If he doesn’t except a reasonable contract then let him walk and move on. Sure BG is good but he’s not irreplaceable and his not signing will not break the Bulls. I could care less about any specific player, the Bulls need to improve, I’m tired of seeing them loose.
by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 29, 2009 11:33 AM CST reply actions
one more thing
I’m not saying to make trades just to make them, but the Bulls overvalued their team a few years back and not doing anything (other then lucking into Rose) has put them back
draft picks are useless if you don’t get anything for them by not playing and growing them into something (how many times does this get said on blogabull)
by NY Chicago Fan on Jan 29, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Everyone
though overvalued the team. Who wouldn’t have a few years back with how young we were and how well as a team we were playing. I don’t think anyone thought these guys individually were going to be superstars (well except for Deng which some did given his age…I still see a potential for an all star in Deng eventually if he pulls it all together—which he can, and I see a potential 1-2 time all star or so for Gordon because he can be so explosive, hell I thought he was looking like on earlier this year before the Hinrich return and Ben hit his typical Nov wall in late Dec/Jan….
But everyone overvalued this team. I think there’s still more talent than we’re given credit, but Skiles was this team’s leader, and the lack of a leader on the court and Skiles losing this team still reverberates.
They weren't overvalued
The problem was people expected them to keep improving when they had nowhere else to improve.
Our offensive rating two years ago (104.9) was the exact same as it is now. Both years we ranked in the bottom 10 of the league. But our defensive rating shot up from 99.6 to 108.0, which is understandable considering Hinrich’s missed 3/4, Deng’s missed 1/4, and we replaced two perennial all-defensive players (Wallace and PJ Brown) with two beanpoles (Tyrus, Noah) and one fuck up (Gooden).
Our guys were decent, there wasn’t any luck involved. But we weren’t getting past the second round with Gordon-Deng-Hinrich as our #1-#2-#3 options, when on other teams they’d be #2-#4-#4 options. And our defense wasn’t going to improve much from that ridiculous 99.6.
I think you have to build a team around premiere scorers. Good defenders are always available at or below cost. Do it the other way around, and you end up with teams like this one.
Our defense
Was tops in the league, the team was playing far better as a unit than now.
I think we could have gotten past the 2nd round if the team stayed together and didn’t lose the team play we had. This was a team that was better together than the sum of it’s parts.
They lost their leader, and haven’t found a replacement, and now this team is apt to dissolve when it matters most.
We have the same offensive rating as two years ago, yet have added a far more dynamic player (Rose) on the offensive end, and have added Gooden (decent offensive player, Tyrus and Noah who are all better offensive players than Ben Wallace)…..Gordon and Deng have gotten older but not better, Thabo is better than he was 2 years ago….
This team fell apart. They were decent but now are playing like crap because they need someone to control them and bring them back into the doing it for the team mentality we played with prior to last year.
I do think Deng’s a #3 on any team in this league, and Gordon might be a #2, but is inching towards a #3 because of the ball handling deficiencies.
Rose isn't as good as Hinrich yet
and Gooden isn’t efficient enough offensively to make up for the big gap between he and Wallace defensively. We might be more talented, but I don’t think anybody would suggest we’ve had better players playing this year than two years ago.
I disagree
Rose is every bit as good as Hinrich ever was.
I like HInrich too. And Rose is going to keep getting better.
Do other teams plan specific defenses
for Rose or Hinrich?
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 29, 2009 9:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think thats still irrelevant
The point that you need a scheme for Rose is big and shows hes going under more pressure. But even then hes still playing at the level or higher than Hinrich has. The second part is my opinion but the first is definitively true.
So besides him facing stronger adversity while his scoring went down (like it should because he is trying to make other guys better) his assists have only been going up.
Yep, Rose's assists this month
are his highest monthly-average yet: 6.3.
Unfortunately for your argument, that’s Hinrich’s career average. Factor in Hinrich’s higher TS% and much much better defense, and the answer is obvious.
actually Rose is averaging 6.3 assists this season
and 6.6 assists this month, which is his one month high. His assists number have approved every month he has been in the league as well. He is better than Hinrich right now, but not as good as Hinrich was in 06-07.
If you remove Hinrich’s 06-07 season, you could easily argue that Hinrich has never played at the level Rose is currently playing (at least on the offensive end).
Interestingly, Hinrich has only shot over 42% once in his career and never has shot the ball as well as Rose is shooting it right now. Rose’s true shooting percentage is hurt by his lack of 3s and free throws.
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 29, 2009 11:05 PM CST up reply actions
And
Kirk really has never been the man on offense, which means he’s never really been the guy to lead the offense and take the big shots in the end (well maybe Rookie Kirk did that a bit when Jalen let him—which was rare) but Kirk always had the give the ball to Gordon and if that doesn’t work I’ll try if Gordon should ever pass the ball back to me (Rarely). Taking the lead for the team in the stretch run is where you take tougher, more contested shots and that definitely hurt your statistics.
Kirk’s best year he had 16-6.6 for a well coached team that played together and everyone knew their roles and executed them.
Rose already is16.8 and 6.3 on a team that has been littered with injuries, has lineup changes faster than I can type, is not playing in any sort of system, has no identity….and Rose is doing this as the face of the franchise for the future and a #1 pick….
I'm not sure about that I think Rose's impact on a game is more imposing
Hinrich better defender granted…but assists if thats his career average or actually thats around his career high with 6.6 then what does that show you for Rose’s first year and hes still meeting that rate. His stats are probably the same with Kirks from his best season in 07 and that team was better put together.
Anyway when Kirk imposes his will on a team or on our team by making sure we are running efficiently you won’t see a W as much as when Rose does so.
The other team is sacrificing to make him uncomfortable everyone else is benefiting at least a little bit from that.
All credit to Kirk but I don’t think hes better than Rose. And I don’t think Rose is league ahead of him yet either because he has a lot to learn. But factoring all of the inexperience and defensive sets designed for him and for Rose to still be on Kirks (of this and last years at the least) level is saying something. Because hes still under more pressure and getting all star treatment.
How would a 20 year old Hinrich
be doing as the Bulls starting PG?
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 30, 2009 12:15 AM CST up reply actions
Well that's the point
Rose is obviously much more talented than Hinrich, and just having arguing whether a 20 year old Rose is better than an established Hinrich means Rose is one special dude.
But right now, between Rose’s Hughes-esque TS%, Hughes-esque PER, Hughes-esque +/-, and sub-Hughes defense, there’s really nothing to indicate he’s even an average point guard right now.
14.6 PER for Hughes
Indicates that he’s an average player at his position….
But your points are valid to a degree, except that Kirk’s best year on an established team with set rotations and guys buying into a system and an offense that was in place for 3 solid straight years was 17.
Rose is playing on a team wtih constantly changing parts, full of injuries, an offense that still is changing on what it wants to do every 3-5 games (was every game there for a while) and his is a reasonably good 15.2.
Guys aren’t going to put up the same stats when the team isn’t sure what it’s doing and the guys around the PG aren’t sure what they’re supposed to do.
I still think if you put Rose on that 2006-2007 team with everyone buying into the team and little to no real injuries, more established veterans (not Tyrus jacking up ill advised shots, Big Aaron dribbling the ball int he paint, Noah also dribbling th eball in the paint, not preparing for the wide open lob pass, or getting a nice easy look but not being strong enough to put it down), add in Drew Gooden’s jack em up ways and while he’s more consistent offensively, he often will dribble, dribble, dribble, when he doesn’t need to which hurts PG stats and plus he’s been in and out a ton. Then you’ve had the gluttony of guards and a very inconsistent Luol Deng until the past 3 weeks or so, and a stretch of 10 games or so where Andres Nocioni (I think he was playing hurt again) was playing some of the worst basketball in the league history and getting a lot of minutes to keep doing it before reverting reasonably back to normal.
I think if you threw Derrick on that other team he’d easily surpass the 17.0 PER, even with his porous defense.
Again
I like Kirk, this has nothing to do with Kirk, he’s been very good for us and was really only really bad for us last year, which I as a Kirk fan have forgiven…..but I do think the rookie Rose is already proving a more valuable player than we ever saw in Kirk.
Do opposing coaches game plan
for Hinrich or Rose?
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 29, 2009 10:11 PM CST up reply actions
That's proof only of Rose's superior athleticism
He has highlight reel moments, but if all it takes to stop him right is to give him the jumpshot, well…. hmm.
If you want to say “Rose is the better player against normal man-to-man defenses”, then fine. But that’s like saying Rex Grossman is better than Kyle Orton… as long as opposing defenses never rush.
I'm sure
If I could ask a poll of the NBA players they’d prove it enough.
I can’t prove it without saying what I’ve seen.
I like Kirk, don’t get me wrong at all, he’s good and is much better than he was last year….but arguing to say that Kirk is better than Rose is a bit silly. Kirk might be more consistent, but he doesn’t have the highs that Derrick’s had for at least 25-30 of his first 56 games. Kirk over the same stretch might have 2-3 high games. Derrick too has only looked bad in 3-4 games.
Derrick needs to improve his defense, but he’s already this teams leader, he is taking the end of game shots, he’s demanding the ball, he’s being aggressive, he has shown an ability to defend at times, just has to learn what to do with the pick and roll….he’s far more explosive than Kirk.
THis argument’s a bit silly. I’m not saying Kirk’s bad, but he’s not Rose….not now not ever.
I bet if you asked Kirk he’d agree.
2006-2007 Kirk is better than Derrick
But the current incarnation isn’t, and neither is any year Kirk Hinrich other than 06-07 really.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
Throw
Derrick on that same team and I’d disagree.
I like Kirk, I think it’s crap what is happening to him on our team to an extent (Since I think he’s always done what the org asked), but I disagree that Kirk was ever in Derrick’s level….granted Kirk’s best year is close to current Rose and Rose will get better….but Kirk did that on a team that was playing united, not injured, had a set system they had been running for 3-4 years, and guys bought into that system and knew their role.
Rose is putting up similar numbers as the leader on a team that seems to change what it wants to do every 3 weeks (We were supposed to be a pure transition team that had no real offense other than what we got on the run, then we were trying to implement a set offense with a vast array of rotating players (figuring out the guards and combos), and add in all the injuries—especially to Deng and Gooden—2 guys who can give you decent offensive production.
Then consider that we still have 2 young bigs in Tyrus and Noah who have a tendency to over dribble and/or put the ball on the floor in the post to get it stolen and ruin assist options….
I like Kirk a lot, I think he’s definitely a solid starter in this league and I think if you threw the 06-07 version of Kirk on as the main starter of the modern Bulls through Nov-today his numbers wouldn’t be too dramatically different than last year (Except his D would be back up to snuff making him a far better player this year than last, it’s just that the team isn’t as good so the stats aren’t going to be what they were). Rose is doing a lot more with a lot less.
All I have to say
The team has to have some new blood, soon
Or addition by subtraction of redundant parts.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 29, 2009 9:09 PM CST up reply actions
Man Love is strong
very hard to break.
Hinrich needs to be gone yesterday. Not because he sucks but because we have Rose.
Has Kirk's return benefitted other players?
Like Deng? I’m not saying it has because I don’t know for certain so I’m asking you.
by messwiththebull on Jan 29, 2009 11:48 AM CST reply actions
Nope.
It made Ben Gordon play worse. Hasn’t done anything to help Rose.
Luol Deng is just sticking his shots now, which he wasn’t doing earlier in the season, and he’s moving with a lot more spring in his step.
Either he finally got fully healed from his injuries, or he was finally too embarassed at his poor play.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
Or (at the risk of giving VDN some credit)
we know how to work him into a Rose-centered game plan now. Everyone has had to adjust, and that doesn’t happen right away. Maybe it’s happening with Deng now.
Disagree
Player pair stats at most recent update.
Completely different from the issue of how Kirk has played individually, overall he has been beneficial to the team. Do the last two games “prove” this is changing? The starters have played well together and Kirk has had a couple of bad games. Maybe Derrick has figured out how to get teammates involved, and maybe they’ve figured out they need to move without the ball. Meanwhile, Kirk has always been streaky, but that doesn’t tell us anything about how long this particular slump might last. Unlike the other guys, because of the long injury layoff he’s also still at a point where a great or awful shooting night makes a huge difference in his shooting percentage. However, statistically speaking he’s still been an overall positive for the team.
None of this has anything to do with the fact that he should be traded at some point. The front court needs help which is more difficult to do without moving his contract, and he’s much better as a PG so as a fan I’d much prefer to watch him play someplace where he can play to his strengths. A trade benefits the team and Kirk both, and that’s going to remain true in the long-term sense across individual good or bad games.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
Kirk's a solid player
That’s harsh to rip him for 9 bad games, especially when he’s returning from injury.
He is what he is – an average offensive PG, a very good defensive PG, and he’s shown up in big games. For the right team (already established, has 2-3 scorers, lacks a big point guard) he’s worth the 9 mil/year he’s owed.
You’re right that it’s time we trade him, but he’s not mediocre.
He hasn't had
9 bad games. He played well the night he was injured and he played well when he returned from the injury. The last couple of games he’s not played well.
I knew
as soon as someone shined the Kirkman light in the sky…Sue would be here to defend him. Do you root for the Bulls or just Kirk?
you root for the Bulls BECAUSE Kirk is on the team
you’ve stated so in the past.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
I'm just stating what you have said in the past, so calm yourself
In the past you’ve clearly said that you only root for the Bulls because Kirk is on the team (injured or uninjured). So you’re not a Bulls fan, you’re a Kirk fan.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
He asked if I root
for the Bulls. I answered his question. Why did you feel the need to get involved in this?
because I felt like pointing out your fake attempt at being a Bulls fan
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
The question is
Who gives a shit? This isn’t some lame fan nation where there are rules to be a sports fan.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 29, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions
calm ur nerves
I didn’t say there were rules. If I want to give Sue a hard time about being a Hinrich fan, I can. As long as I’m not crossing the line. She can take it, she’s a big girl.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
And anyhow, everyone knows KU sucks.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 29, 2009 4:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
HA!
(Not a Bill Self fan)
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 29, 2009 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
lol
that’s because I usually am…
:-)
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Jan 29, 2009 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
My Grandma
Who passed away a year ago this month at 97 used to love her Bulls and always talk about Kirk Hinrich….
It’ll be sad when he leaves….
oh crimeny.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
May I ask....
why is he your favorite player?
Sure. He's
an Iowa guy. I cheer for Nick Collison too since he’s from my hometown. Have to cheer for the guys from home.
If the Bulls want a combo guard
with University of Iowa and Chicagoland connections, this guy should come much cheaper than Hinrich.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 29, 2009 9:40 PM CST up reply actions
bail money's that cheap?
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 11:36 PM CST up reply actions
somewhat ridiculous
that creeps like him continue to get paid. a guy punches another dude cracking his skull yet he’s brought on by another NBA team.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Well, the Univ. of Iowa
athletic department let PP come back to the team after his first assault conviction.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 30, 2009 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
Alford is a Bobby Knight protege,
so that is enough reason to hate him.
The Bulls would never sign Pierre Pierce under the current management, since he is the opposite of a high character guy.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 31, 2009 5:03 AM CST up reply actions
Especially from JR, JP and VDN!
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 29, 2009 9:43 PM CST up reply actions
should we just
ignore the absolute horrific games BG has tossed up recently until last night? i beg to differ that kirk’s defense has gone down since coming back. i thought that hes played great defense since his comeback. even yesterday with his shots not falling, he played good defense, causing a few steals and blocks that led to points at the other end. i admit i found it strange that BG was pulled when he did. but he did have sum BG like boneheaded plays last night also. there was one in particular where he employed the patented BG dribble further away from the arc and jack up a 3. but he did have an efficent game. i think that with all the troubles that we have right now, its pointless to go back to the ever so famous argument of gordon or kirk. it seems that some days kirk’s got it and some days gordon’s got it. it makes no sense to nitpick the wrongdoings of someone whos returned almost a month early from an injury to the hand.
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
It makes perfect sense.
Kirk Hinrich is the most important player on this team regarding our future. The trade deadline is approaching and what we do with Hinrich will greatly effect the franchise.
It really does come down to Kirk and Gordon, once and for all. In the past, it didn’t, because Hinrich was the team’s point guard and Gordon was the team’s shooting guard. Now they are both vying for a lot of shooting guard minutes.
If Kirk Hinrich stays past the deadline, that most likely means that Gordon goes. The Bulls have to ask themselves, do they really want to let one of the best three point shooters in the league go over Kirk Hinrich, who is a bad fit next to Derrick Rose? Usually player who can knock down threes in volume is the type of guy you want to surround your superstar with.
It’d be one thing if we had a coach who was willing to make Hinrich into a bench player. Read that, bench player, not sixth man. This is not turning Kirk into the Jason Terry/Ben Gordon/Manu Ginobli role. This is turning Kirk into just a bench player. Rose/Gordon play their 36-40 minutes a night, unless they get in foul trouble. None of this 28+ minutes per game business that is going on.
But our coach doesn’t seem willing to do that, so we have to remove the option of playing Kirk altogether becuase of the weakness of NBA coaches.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
Exactly. It really does come down to this. It's finally time for Pax to decide what's best for his team at the 2 guard position.
I think Pax has to accept that he made huge mistakes like giving Kirk that contract and not finding a way to give BG one. Also a point that has not been brought up enough, would Pax have had to come to this decision of trading Kirk and wondering who is going to back up rose if he had simply kept a guy that would be perfect in that back up role right now: Chris Duhon? I keep hearing how because of the “system” Duhon looks better. But isn’t that an indictment on Pax for who he hired to coach this team? He should have kept Duhon(who right now looks like a better PG than Kirk), traded Kirk for something in the post in the offseason and gave BG that contract. This isn’t 20/20 hinsight, you could see this dilema coming a mile away.
wait so
u consider BG a 6th man?
and honestly i havent been convinced that BG plays better with rose. most of the threes that gordon has made were created on his own. not to say that rose hasnt got him a lot of shots. but BG certainly hasnt knocked a lot of them down either.
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
Ben is
Ben is a 6th man, any exec or coach would view him as that
thanks Sam.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
Kirk is a saint to some on this group.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 29, 2009 9:55 PM CST up reply actions
What - in the sense of can do no wrong?
Hardly. While I’m sure most of us view things in a more positive light than the anti-Kirks, as most fans do with their favorite team or player, as I whole I think we’re pretty realistic. I’m sure there’s a person or two who goes completely overboard, but you can find that for any player. It’s unfortunate that there’s been this ongoing Kirk vs. Ben thing for so long, because it seems like it has created a lot of animosity. At this point, I’d love to have either one of them gone just so we can quit having this stupid argument.
But who am I kidding – it’s what we do, right? I bet next year they’re both gone and people are still arguing about Kirk vs. Ben.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
We should of
Traded Kirk during the draft last year for Portland’s 13 pick and Przybilla or Frye. Kirk still has value you because he is the all american ball player, the coaches kid. He will do the job and not complain about it. GM’s and coaches dig that and that’s why he has vaule in the league. Now we need to take advantage of that asap.
Solid post
Trade Kirk and give Thabo a real shot to earn the 2-spot they drafted him for.
Also, Piccolomair is sitting in a pitch black room furiously typing a rebuttal for this post, and I can’t wait to read it. BaB feuds continue!
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
I should also state
that my “give Thabo a shot” idea is assuming they lose BG to free agency/trade.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jan 29, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
Because back-up PG's are extremely important and are hard to come by?
13 minutes per game is a crap reason for not creating financial flexibility if that’s what you really want.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
You're right. So let me correct my post.
Bromance is too strong
I’d love to see Kirk go, but please someone tell him to bring Noce with him.
Neither is "the answer".
I don’t like Gordon as much as it may seem, but that might be because I’ve been convinced he’s leaving for well over a year now.
I wish they just would have paid Gordon 5-years/$60 million. They could have then traded Hinrich pronto, and used Gordon in a sign-and-trade in 2010 if they needed (as if Toronto would have minded taking 3 years of Gordon, Noah and a 1st round pick for Bosh to with Bargnani and Calderon, or Miami taking Gordon, Noah and first for Wade to go with Beasley). In the interim, they’re winning games and have a good team (well, w/ a good coach).
Now, they might as well just let both go, play Thabo a shit ton next year (as Ugh says), and hope for the best. REBUILD!!!
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Kirk Trade Proposal
Didn’t think this was worth a full fanpost: do you think Washington would trade Jamison for Kirk straight up? Kirk could be a nice piece out there, and there’s the sense that with them sucking, they should dump Jamison (who’s too old for a rebuilding project). They’d have Kirk at point, Arenas and Caron on the wings, Blatche at the four, and Haywood at the 5, with Nick Young as the first guy off the bench. We’d basically be giving Gooden’s minutes to Jamison next year. Sure, he’s somewhat old, but his type of game is the type that ages well — he’s a shooter who depends more on technique than athleticism. What do you guys think?
can't recall
Does Jamison have a post game? If not, then I’d rather not see him. Having a big guy who shoots and no post game isn’t what the Bulls need.
They need an athletic big who can run and post up, play a little D. Hopefully Tyrus finds a post game soon, or Noah works on his.
Press the trade button. At this point no one will be missed!
To my knowledge, he does.
He’s not going to be Dwight Howard (or even Al Jefferson) due to a lack of bulk, but he certainly has crafty little moves. And he can run. And rebound. And play better D than Gooden, although he’s not going to be a stopper.
I’m not saying he’s the panacea for all Bulls problems, but he could turn a redundant and unnecessary piece (Kirk) into something very useful.
He is nice player...solid leader on the court and in the locker room.
But that contract is terrible…he is 32 years old with a newly signed 4 year, $50M deal…its an albatross.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
Is it worse than Kirk's contract?
Kirk will make slightly less over the same span, but to be a back-up who messes up rotations or as a bad-fit starter.
Its way worse than Kirk's.
When you consider Kirk’s is front loaded, so in the last he is only making $8M, while Jamison’s is backloaded, so his last year he is making over $15M.
I like Jamison as a player, a lot, but I would be really concerned about how much he is making his last two seasons at an age when many players begin to break down.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
And Washington wouldn't make that deal anyways
He’s about the only bright spot for the Wizards, and is one of the few veterans who could command some respect on the team. Plus, everything you said about his contract is valid.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 29, 2009 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
There's actually quite a lot of speculation that he'll be traded.
The most common rumor I’ve heard is him going to Cleveland.
Not to pick nits.
But I read a lot of rumors and I have not seen his name come up…do you have a link?
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
I do not.
Most of my info comes from ESPN.com, though. I did some searching, and couldn’t find anything other than Chad Ford’s listing him at a 35% possibility to get traded (not mentioning where).
Oh well. I probably saw it on a Cavs blog when I was doing some game preview, and it’s probably source-less speculation.
Kirk
Good God! If everyone thinks that Kirk is the main problem on this team, then that is really sad. Gorden, Gooden and Hughs have to go. Plus those (2) two guys (can’t remember their names) who haven’t played one second. Add to that a horrible coach and a half ass GM and eveyone wonders why the team just doesn’t always play. Last night looked good, but the Clippers really suck. If the trend follows, the next game is going to be a dog!
Enough talk I wanna see some action.
Damn it seems like we’ve been talking trades for two years now. Lets get something going Paxson!
Ben Gordon is fools gold, 1st Year when he was doing what he was I was thoroughly impressed with the composure of a rookie who took over in the 4th Quarter. But since then there has really been no improvement, he’s really a 1 trick pony. All scoring, no defense, over dribbling, turnover basically at the same amount they were at, actually worse than they were his rookie year. Dont get me wrong at times Ben has the ability to single handedly either get you back in a game or occasional win it for you(but so does Larry Hughes i.e. Jazz game) but on the flipside more than not equals that with the ability to shoot you out of a game. It doesnt help being a great scorer if your D is on the opposite end of the spectrum.
you just described Noc, not Gordon
no improvement? You haven’t been watching the games. Only a Kirk fan would say such.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
To sum up
Lets stop trying to compare the games of Kirk, Noc, Gordon, lets figure out ways we can get these guys off the roster, I’m all in favor of trading Kirk and Noc, and letting Ben walk as a FA
I'm in favor of trading Kirk and Noc
Gordon needs to be kept if at all possible.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
BTW
Ben turned down 59 mil so he could sign the MLE and become a free agent. Man he is in for a reality check when he hits the market in 09’, but who knows maybe the Knicks will sign him to a Jerome James type contract (easily worse signing in the last decade).
Well, at least one thing in your post was close to true
Jerome James type contract (easily worse signing in the last decade)
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
At this point with Gordon, I think it's more about the principle.
He KNOWS that he’s a more valuable player than Hinrich and likely feels he’s as valuable as Deng. God forbid somehow or another Ben Gordon ends up on a team like Orlando (where his 3 pt shooting becomes a MAJOR asset…and he’ll never see another double team again), or Philadelphia where he’d fill a MAJOR need for them. Or even a team like Oklahoma City who appears to have 3 young, solid building blocks and could use a guy at the 2 who can shoot the lights out the way BG can. Neither of these teams are overly concerned about the summer of 2010 nor do they hold out hope of getting one of the guys from that class so they may be more willing to pay a guy like Gordon a little less than what the Bulls may offer and still get him. Because seriously, it’s gotta be getting to the point where he is sick of the Paxson/Del Negro/Skiles/Boylan game of Hinrich or Gordon that has been played with him for the last 5 years.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jan 30, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
Don't forget in Cleveland with Lebron...San Antonio with the big 3...As the Lakers point guard...etc
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
Seems Like Trade Kirk ASAP is the Conssus
Does anyone think Portland would do this trade? A protected first round pick, Kirk and Drew Goden for Martell Webster, Raef Lafrentz, Sergio Rodriguez and Ike Digu. I heard some analyst say they are looking for a point guard.
It needs to be
Pax can’t continue to shuffle his feet, because of his love affair w/ Kirk, trade him now!, while the rest of the NBA has this love affair w/ him, Pax take a look at Hendry, he likes a lot of players, but when its time to deal he makes it happen, Bobby Hill= Aramis Ramirez, HiSop Choi= D.Lee, in other words, this is business, keeping Hinrich isn’t best for business, when he can bring back value
no baseball talk
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 4:12 PM CST up reply actions
I actually wondered at one point if Pax promised to trade him
Kirk has said before that he prefers playing PG, and the vast majority of players want to be on the court, even those toeing the team line and playing whatever role the team asks. Maybe Pax asked him to play backup to Derrick, help him out as much as possible, for a season, and then Pax would look for a trade at midseason or (more likely imo) this summer. It also serves as a side benefit to keep some pressure on Ben to sign for less.
Although, if Ben ends up signing for less, even if it’s the biggest offer he gets, seems like pretty good reason for hard feelings – and that could make for an interesting ongoing working relationship with the Bulls.
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
You are right on about Kirk
I agree entirely with what you are saying. It’s time to move on and begin parting with what used to be the core of the team. The Bulls need a new core around Derrick Rose. I wouldn’t object to getting rid of Gordon either. He can score but because of his many liabilities (too short, can’t dribble, bad at defense) I am not comfortable with his as a starter. I think his best role on a WINNING team would be as a 6th man, and if he’s not willing to do that, the Bulls should shop him too.
Hinrichs Play
Anyone notice how hinrichs play drastically changed when he came back from his injury, and in the last two games his play again drastically changed (this time worse) in the last two games? I want to know whats the cause of these changes. If it was just him hitting his shots more or something i could dismiss it as a hot streak and cold streak, but its the entire way he plays. He was moving the ball like crazy when he came back from injury, and in the last two games he’s been dribbling alot more….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
"reinvigoration"
i dunno. small sample size. excited to be playing meaningful basketball again.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
He's got almost bizarre home-away splits this season.
And the last 2 games were on the road.
Home: .464, 11 ppg, .485 3s, 5 apg
Away: .325, 5.7 ppg, .200 3s, 4 apg
I don’t know, blame it on the wife and kid again, only this time they’re the positive influence? ;)
Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!
What's with everyones..
whinning and mood swings…we won a game dammit, grow some chest hair (not intended for the ladies in this room btw)
GO .500!
"Kiss my Converse!" - Sho'nuff
I like the Ben Love
I like Ben, but people are talking about him like he is Drexler or any other all-star level guard, Ben is expendable, and what he does is replaceable, guys who average 18-20ppg can be replaced, Kukoc got replaced w/ Brand and Mercer, those guys got replaced by Crawford, he is replaced by Gordon, don’t give been anymore money, let him walk, and use that money for something else
I think you need to say this a thousand more times
so everyone REALLY gets it and changes their ways.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 4:48 PM CST up reply actions
Huh?
When Kukoc scored his 18-20ppg (18.9 in 98-99), he did so on 49.0% TS. Brand scored at an efficient rate, but we had to use a #1 overall pick on him – I wouldn’t call that easily replaced. Crawford posted TSs of 49.6% and 48.6% with the Bulls in his two full seasons.
Gordon’s averaging 20ppg on 56.7% TS. I don’t think you realize how exclusive a club that is. In the last three years, it’s only been done 59 times by a total of about 25 players. That’s elite company.
59 times is not exclusive company.
And Ben Gordon is not averaging 20ppg.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
If you look at it over an extended time.
If you look at his PPG/TS% combination over the past 3 seasons, it is exclusive company. Yes, players can do it for one season at a time, but over a multiple year period? Not so well.
And once Hinrich gets traded, Gordon will go back to averaging 20 PPG : D
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
Gordon has only averaged 20 PPG once in his career.
and his TS% has only been above 56 once in his career.
And both of those occurred in the same season…so its not like he has a history of putting up those type of numbers…he did it once.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
He was scoring 20 PPG
Before the Hughes trade last year, then Boylan screwed with his minutes, and he dropped below.
He was averaging 20 PPG this year, before Hinrich came back, and Vinny screwed with his minutes, and he dropped below.
He definitely has it in him, and would easily do it if his role was left unmessed with.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
Oh I agree.
Ben Gordon is a scorer.
He just does not do anything else particularly well. He is kinda one dimensional in that regard.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
And I agree with that
But premier scorers are hard to come by, and Gordon is the best we’ve had since Jordan left. For a team that’s been bottom 10 in the league in offensive rating every year since 1998, Gordon’s important.
20ppg is not premier
When Ben averages 25ppg come holla
for that matter
Kirk doesn’t do anything particularly well either. He’s can’t score well, he’s an average defender (in my eyes). So that makes him kinda no dimensional, no?
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
That what keeps him from being a primary player.
You can’t build around Ben Gordon because he won’t fill up the assist column. But he is a great second option on any team. If we get Rose up to superstar status, I would expect the appreciation for Gordon to go up a ton, when he has less defensive attention on him, and he can tear apart defenses who are focusing on someone else. So far, Rose really hasn’t taken any defensive attention off of him.
But when Rose truly becomes a superstar, then I think Gordon will begin to tear people apart mercilessly. Having two other good perimeter players in Gordon/Deng, should force the double team to come from the bigs, which in time, if we get a real coach, we can begin to exploit for alley oops and easy layins.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
You don't build around Gordon.
But Gordon is a guy you can win with. A guy who possesses the ability to score the way Gordon does while shooting 40% from 3 and 45% from the field at his position is valuable. He demands defensive attention and you have to hold onto guys like that unless you can get something better to replace them.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jan 30, 2009 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
Can you name anyone on the Bulls
with more than one dimension?
lets not get carried away
find players with one dimension first :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 11:37 PM CST up reply actions
Gooden can get distracted looking at the players run around on the court
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Kirk can dribble while standing at the top of the key
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 30, 2009 1:03 AM CST up reply actions
Depends on the game.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
BG just practices the little things
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 30, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe not
But he has throwing the ball behind him to absolutely no one while on a fast break pretty much down pat
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
Fact: Kirk turns the ball over more than Ben.
Kirk’s Career TOV % = 14.7
Ben’s Career TOV% = 12.9
Add that to the fact that Ben has a higher USG% than Kirk, and that’s just embarassing for the “Kirk loses the ball less than Ben” contingent.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 6:56 PM CST up reply actions
Did you even read
what we were talking about? It wasn’t about who had more turnovers. It was about dribbling. How BG dribbles off his foot, leg etc. that is embarassing. No one said anything about “Kirk loses the ball less than Ben”.
It's all about embarassing, not productivity.
Just what one remembers. Forget what actually happens.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Oh good god.
Norm and I were just going back and forth with each other but then others have to come in and get all pissy.
did I tell you to "butt out"?
you may want to re-read. Actually though, NOW I will tell you to butt out.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Jan 31, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
I seem to remember Kirk falling down on back to back possessions
early in either the last game or the game before. He had back to back turnovers and both of them were highly embarassing.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 8:42 PM CST up reply actions
also, his turnover to Noah on a 2 on 0 fast break
was probably the most embarassing turnover I’ve ever seen.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 30, 2009 8:43 PM CST up reply actions
I have a sense of humor. The joke wasn't funny.
the non-sense about BG falling down all the time is ridiculous and the “jokes” about it only further the myth that it only happens to Ben.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 31, 2009 12:36 AM CST up reply actions
I only saw Kirk slip, and didn't see BG slip.
That said, I started watching at 11, so we had … oh, a 20 point lead. Had some fun watching Aaron Gray pass to Spencer Hawes for the jam too.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Then you missed
Bg driving to the lane, losing the ball, falling down and watching the ball being dribbled to the other end of the court for two points. Derrick had some bad TO’s tonight too. All three of them have TO’s they probably wish didn’t happen.
Aaron Gray
Can inexplicably go up to the 3pt line to try to double team Baron Davis (Who’s already covered) and leave his man DeAndre Jordan (yes the great DeAndre rookie Jordan) wide open time and time again for a layup or dunk…..
And considering he does this all the time (tries to guard the guards when he doesn’t need to because they are covered, and when they use his big body to screen against the Bull guarding him, Aaron flails his arms at them to pick up ticky tack fouls and the great and 1 situation, yet STILL gets playing time….
But I chimed in on the Gordon and Noc fight….sorry.
by majoyenrac on Jan 30, 2009 8:08 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And brick shots!
Damn it Noce. See what I just did?
You got to give me something tomorrow, man.
You're splitting hairs
The filter was for 20+ ppg scorers with a .55+ TS%. Gordon’s 0.2 ppg away from doing it again this year, and was 1.4ppg away from doing it last year. Considering he did that in 31.8mpg last year, that’s impressive.
I like this one.
Qualifications:
Combined seasons
Since 2000-2001
Age <= 26
Guard
Pts/g > 18
TS% > .55
Sorted by minutes per game. Gordon’s last in minutes, but he moves up two or three spots in points-per-minute.
Yeah, he only does one thing (actually, two: scoring and doing it efficiently), but there are very few guards who do that as well as he does.
My conclusion? Put Gordon back on a good team, and give him a defined role where he doesn’t need shoot his way to a contract, and you’ll have an elite scorer again. So, if one wants to make the pathetic offense even worse, sure chuck Gordon out based on some principle. If one would rather surround its good players with better players (and coaches) so that the team gets better, I say do that instead.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Exactly
It’s nice to see that someone sees this. Yes, Gordon is not a #1 player on a team. Maybe #1 scorer on a team, but not the player it’s all built around.
How do we get this team into championship level? Trading Hinrich and Nocioni for expirings is a start.
You are left with Rose/Gordon/Deng as your 2010 main players. We’re talking about blowing the entire team up. Signing a big name free agent in 2010, probably means the end of Tyrus Thomas, that’s okay, most likely. if Thomas pans out, we won’t really need a 2010 free agent, but I have doubts about that happening.
So in 2010, say the Bulls sign Chris Bosh and Omer Asik.
You have put together your 6 players under contract, presumably, as
PG-Derrick Rose
SG-Ben Gordon
SF-Luol Deng
PF-Chris Bosh
C- Omer Asik/Joakim Noah
We have no bench…honestly, who cares? Celtics didn’t have a bench after the Garnett and Allen trades either.
We sign a backup powerforward who can play good defense. We get shooters in the backup perimeter positions. Veteran guys. Sign guys to the veteran minimum that are looking to compete. Use the MLE the next year if you absolutely have to to get some quality depth.
Bulding around a small core of players is the path the Bulls have to take. Then we get the veteran role players after that with the MLE, LLE, and Vet’s Minimum.
Try to get a front court star level player, and continue to try to make Rose into a superstar, while retaining Gordon, and the Bulls are in good shape.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 29, 2009 10:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Ain't you the guy that doesn't like Rose?
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 30, 2009 12:28 AM CST up reply actions
IIRC, "trade" posted on another thread that Rose was terrible.
Sometimes the threading is hard to follow in the SB format.
Maybe we can?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 30, 2009 11:54 PM CST up reply actions
And were beaten unmercifully when we had Brand/Mercer/Crawford!!
There is no logical person that thinks BG is Drexler or any hall of famer for that matter. But I believe he’s more valuable than Hinrich. At least you know you’ll get scoring in the 20ppg range from Gordon, which means you can always move him if you have to and not worry about getting dog scraps in return. I have no doubt that Gordon could net you a valuable piece in a trade if he made 10+ million/yr and was still averaging around 20ppg (although i feel he’ll be a better player once his contract situation is finally resolved and he can play without thinking about it….after all, that’s what people said about Deng/Hinrich/Noc before their deals got done). That’s one reason why i’m in favor of keeping him.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jan 30, 2009 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
this is by first the worst post i've ever seen on this blog.
i mean, to judge a player by four games since coming back from an injury is retarded. the fact of the mater is the bulls have too many players on their hands, so it’s really hard to judge any of the players with the limited minutes they are getting. i mean to say that hinrich never will never be able to play the two next to rose is so fucking dumb, when you have not even given it a chance to settle in.
should it be extended into last season then?
it won’t look pretty…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
"by far"
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Portland trade rumor
Our local beat writer (and yes, he is more reliable than say Sam Smith :)) is reporting a possible big deal with an Eastern Conference team on his weekly chat/podcast (and a minor one with a Western Conference team). He doesn’t name names, but says the deal would revolve around Raef LaFrentz’s expiring/insured contract and 3 bench players from the Blazers for a PG and SF. He also mentioned the teams had previously discussed a smaller deal, but now the 2nd player was put on the table to sweeten the deal (but not just a throw in, he made it sound like pieces to become a contender). Not too many teams fit that description.
In fact the Bulls are the most likely one, with Charlotte (Wallace and Felton) and Milwaukee (Jefferson and Sessions) being the others. If it was the Bulls, it would probably center around Hinrich and Deng, maybe Noc or Sefolosha. An interest in Hinrich and Deng was also rumored earlier by the ESPN guys Ford and Stein. Thoughts?
Hinrich would be a great fit with Portland and I hope the sf is Nocioni.
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 29, 2009 5:35 PM CST up reply actions
well, yeah, he's much better than Frye
but he is the second most important guy to the Portland chemistry, so I have difficulty seeing it being him traded. It could be though.
It's definitely not Deng.
Deng’s recent play has put him back into the pretty much untouchable area again. He’d obviously get traded for Bosh/Amare, etc. But he isn’t going to get shipped out for an expiring contract.
Hinrich/Nocioni it would be.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
Maybe.
Deng’s two weeks younger than Fernandez. Maybe Fernandez IS that much better. Maybe he’s riding a half-season hot streak. Maybe it’s because he’s on a good team with a set role. It really seems like a lateral move from SF to SG. Although, it’s cheaper. And SF are typically more replaceable.
I’d trade anyone on the save Rose and Deng for Fernandez, though. Rose, Fernandez, Deng is really something to build around.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
probably hard to deal him cause of the BYC stuff
i really doubt it would be deng.
but hinrich and noc – would be awesome.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Nobody on our team except Rose in untouchable!!
Let’s get that out of the way first. Secondly, who’s to say that Fernandez is better than Deng?
You guys are so easily fascinated. Fernandez is a nice player, but if he were getting the defensive attention that Deng gets and didn’t have Brandon Roy, Lamarcus Aldridge and a big guy like Oden to alleviate pressure would he still be as effective? Also would any of you deny that Deng would be SO MUCH BETTER if he had options like that on his team?
So let’s not get carried away with the Fernandez thing yet!!
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jan 30, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions
If you hear
Anything else create a new fanpost…..
Any trade is exciting, but this sounds very exciting gossip because I can see Portland wanting a trade given that they don’t want to be a Bulls part 2 with too many assets and not pulling any triggers then having chemsitry woes.
Quick is VERY dialed in
this is the most excited he’s sounded in a very long time. Rarely, if ever, does he get into specifics like this.
Sorry
But who is Quick? I guess I didn’t understand your post.
Though I hope he’s an analyst and that this trade is happening (or a trade).
Still like my AK47 trade that I’ve peddled 2-3 times over the past 16-18 months (essentially since the Pau deal died)……
But I’d be happy with a trade for the Blazers, esp for Raf’s expiring….and if we do that, we HANG ONTO HUGHES and suffer all next year.
Yeah
I read that below. Thanks.
I was like what’s this quick is very dialed in? Not thinking Quick would be a last name…
Oh well, crazy work day yesterday….thx.
Championship
2 of the bulls top players for portland’s garbage. That spells championship. But hey, atleast they’d have cap room to resign everyone’s favorite ben gordon.
so...
Hinrich
Roy
Nocioni
Aldridge
Oden
Damn good team to give the Lakers a scare.
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 29, 2009 5:46 PM CST up reply actions
But, but, he has VALUE!!!
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 29, 2009 6:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously?
I disagree but hey, I think he’s gonna get 10mins PT tops so it’s not really a big difference.
Batum would likely start.
No way Nocioni starts.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jan 30, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
Not Deng + Kirk unless we get Rudy.
I’m pretty sure you aren’t getting Deng and Hinrich. Deng’s playing well now that he’s finally healthy, and that’d be a pretty pointless exercise on the Bulls’ part.
I don’t know if Nocioni is considered an SF (he’s just an F), but poop with joy if it were Hinrich+Noc for those three.
For you guys… well, start learning these phrases: toughness, energy, veteran leadership, mopey, missed assignments, streaky, long-term contracts.
Let me add… I think I’d do it for Deng if you added Rudy. That opens up an entirely different can of worms for the Bulls (set another SG), but I like Rudy a lot, and he’s just starting his rookie deal. I’d take him and work like hell to trade Ben Gordon ASAP.
Rudy is possible
just because he’ll be stuck behind Roy his entire career. I love him as a player though… he wins games in ways that are hard to statistically show. Clutch plays at the right times… he’s won us two games this year by wrestling rebounds away from PF/Cs in the closing seconds.
Yeah, it's a lateral move in my book in talent, upside, potential
since they’re very nearly the exact same age.
But the cheaper contract, the “set back court”, etc. would be damn interesting. Anyone but Deng or Rose. I’d give 1st round picks, Thomases, Noahs, whatever if the Bulls could have Rose, Deng, Fernandez going forward.
I don’t know if Fernandez will ever be “great”, but I think he has a chance to be every bit as good as Deng. If Rose matures as one would hope, you add two borderline-type All stars and somehow get one more player better than them in the frontcourt… well, that’s championship-contender in my book.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
The more I think about it, the more I'd do it.
Said deal also puts us somewhere in the neighborhood of $18-20M under the cap, which would give us a good shot a Millsap. Or making a lop-sided trade that saves money for another team and gives us a quality player.
That plus Rudy is a pretty good return.
Hinrich and Deng or Hinrich plus anyone other than Deng/Rose?
I’d include 1st round picks for it, too.
How about this one? Throw in a first round pick?
Nah, Portland doesn’t do that.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
If it's us
It would have to Be Kirk, Nocs and a pick
for
Rudy, Lafrentz and Channing Frye.
Numbers seem to match and it would give Portland a rock solid starting line up with Kirk starting and Nocs providing the ENERGY they need. Them seem to soft to be so young, fo us Rose and Rudy would be nice. LaFrentz is free money and Frye would either sink or swim.
heh
Greg Oden isn’t soft… he’s changed the persona of the team somewhat. Aldridge even hit Garnett on the back of the head. Half the opposing centers in the league hate Przybilla.
They were a lot softer last year.
Not really.
He’s vital to our rebounding success. That’s how we win games. By outrebounding the opponent.
by Cablinasian on Jan 29, 2009 11:48 PM CST up reply actions
funny
lately we lose games by out rebounding the opponent – that takes skill
Skill at losing
we gots it
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
No one needs Nocioni
But he could at least be effective on a winning team. Those dumbass announcers in Portland would probably love him.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 29, 2009 7:19 PM CST up reply actions
mike and mike
would not love Noc if their favorite (travis) and rudy got traded for him.
anyways…. Noc will not be a blazer. Ever.
i would do that in a second
but i can’t imagine the Blazers valuing Hinrich so highly. Is he really that much better than Blake?
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 29, 2009 8:35 PM CST up reply actions
Kirk's trade value
is always said to be high. But I cant think of any team that will trade for him and give chicago a decent big man, a young guy with potential or a legit 2 guard.
Salmons+udrih+thomas for Kirk+gooden/noce?
if pax got nothing for jr smith and tim thomas, what leads you to believe that he can score any relevant talent for lesser players like noc and hinrich?
Because he got two awesome draft picks and cap space for an unsigned Curry.
What he did with those picks afterwards… Well…
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I just listened to the Blazers blog that Quick was on
He mentioned two trades, one with an Eastern Con. team-a starting SF and PG from the EC team for three rotation players from the Blazers. If it’s the Bulls it’s got to be Kirk and Deng for ????
Rudy, Outlaw, Steve Blake and LaFrentz?
Hinrich, Deng, Simmons, Ruffin
for
Fernandez, Outlaw, Blake and LaFrentz
If the Bulls are more than $132,000 away from the Luxury tax, they can do this deal.
I’m not sure I like it, but I definitely don’t hate.
Bulls 2009 commitments.
Rose/Blake (unguaranteed but why not)
Fernandez/Hughes
Nocioni/Outlaw (unguaranteed as well)
Thomas/
Noah
Commitments of only $36 or so for next year if they want. Another $8 million if they want to keep Outlaw and Blake) I dunno. It’s a redo. They wouldn’t have crap committed for 2010.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
it's not a terrible deal
better than some of the ones floating around here. but i have doubts about them shipping deng.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
also, i have doubts about us sending 2 starting caliber players
(yes, hinrich is starting caliber, just not a starting caliber 2)
for guys who won’t start for us. i think the sf has to be noc.
przybilla would be nice but i don’t see them sending him over.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
you people think
Pax will out shrew KP and get rudy+travis+rlec+blake for Hinrich+Noc?
what in each of their respective histories leads you to believe this?
i don't think it would necessary be all those for hinrich and noc
but i dont see them giving up deng without a better return.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
while przybilla does fill a need
i’m not sure… he’s like 30 and he’s not THAT productive (though he doesn’t play that many minutes), so i’m not sure he’s worth giving up deng for. he’d be a nice addition to the bulls though.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Actually
Przybilla is one of the best rebounders in the league, pace and minute adjusted. He gobbles them up at a crazy rate.
by Cablinasian on Jan 29, 2009 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
rebounding wise, yes
but i’d prefer a center who scores more than 5ppg.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
So do I.
But I think Fernandez could possibly be the same value as Deng, only a lot cheaper. If Paxson wanted to completely start over… get out from all long contracts, start with young talent… Rose and Fernandez aren’t a bad place to start. It’s not a good team but neither is the one they have now.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I'm not doing it.
VDN is. You really think he doesn’t start Nocioni over some “new guy?” If this gets done now, or soon, I think he should start him in hopes that he runs off a hot two weeks and becomes tradeable.
I agree, he shouldn’t start. Ever. Buyt I don’t see Del Negro holding back.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
New thread is up about the PG/SF rumor
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 29, 2009 11:55 PM CST reply actions
This isn't that thread.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
I just found ths awesome stat!
82games.com guard tandem data!
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809CHIP.HTM
Kirk Hinrich+Larry Hughes plus-minus: -99
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
I don't think they've played together
Considering the chart below doesn’t list Hinrich next to Hughes…..maybe that’s a default, or is based on so little minutes it might as well be a default.
at least not in the regular season, no
since hughes got injured during the preseason and came back after hinrich was hurt.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Yeah, it's based on little minutes and proves nothing.
But it’s AWESOME.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
The only problem is one, Hinrich has 4 years left on his contract, while Gordon has one year left. It’s a lot easier to trade guys who are in their last year of their contract because there is less risk for the team who acquires the player.
"When I die I hope they don't cremate me 'cuz I'll burn forever."-Harry Caray
It's a lot easier to trade guys who don't have No Trade Clauses.
Duh.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Maybe Bulls/Lakers could try to pull some type of Gordon for Kobe trade.
And then watch both players repeatedly using their no trade clauses.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
Kirk going nowhere.. Paxson purposely planned Kirk Hinrich day @ UC after the trade deadline.
and probably a one-on-one, man-2-man, heartfest late night dinner after that game… together?
man up!
Is that true
Is their a Kirk Hinrich day after the deadline? That’s hilarious.
Remember when the Ben Wallace afro with the headbands promo went out and the Bulls said their marketing dept doesn’t work with the team leads which is why it went out with a headband….perhaps that’s still going on here….
Some more Kirk Hinrich stuff since he's been back.
Ben Gordon – 53.03%
Kirk Hinrich – 52.08%
There’s where the problem lies. Kirk Hinrich comes back, messes with Gordon’s role, shaking up Gordon, lessening Gordon’s output. Kirk knocked Gordon from an elite efficiency, down to average…but here’s the problem, Kirk’s scoring at a slightly below adequate scoring efficiency himself.
So messing with an elite efficiency scorer’s role, to make room for an inefficient scorer isn’t a very good idea.
Coaches will never get it through there head, that with Rose and Gordon on the team, all Hinrich can be is a bench player. Not a sixth man, but a bench player. Since the coaches aren’t willing to put Hinrich in his proper role on this team, Hinrich needs to be traded for the good of the team.
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