Is it imperative to trade Kirk Hinrich? (UPDATED with Chad Ford article)
by Andrew7 on Jan 27, 2009 12:16 PM CST
132 comments
[Updated with some links of Hinrich dealing likelihood. You either have 0% or 10%. Awesome -ed.]
Since Kirk Hinrich has come back from injury, the Bulls end result has been worse. We are 2-6 since Kirk Hinrich has come back.
The problem with Kirk is that he can fill a role on a team, but the problem is that no coach ever plays him in that role. The coach expands Hinrich's role into something that he can't handle.
Kirk Hinrich is a good energy player, who can play solid defense (he has come down from his godly defense that he showed in his first few games back), who can stick jumpshots, but tightens up during the fourth quarter. Therefore, he should be an ~24 minute per game sixth man.
Neither Derrick Rose or Ben Gordon seem to enjoy playing with Kirk Hinrich. It's not because Kirk's a bad guy. If the Bulls had drafted Michael Beasley instead of Derrick Rose, I'm sure Ben Gordon would be thrilled to play with Kirk Hinrich. But as is, Kirk Hinrich is a threat to both of their minutes, which is a threat to their production, which is a threat to the team success, which put together is a threat to their money and fame.
A recent theme with Kirk Hinrich is that he has been playing large portions of the fourth quarter over Derrick Rose, but more often, Ben Gordon, with the exception of the Minnesota game, where Hinrich played so awful that Vinny couldn't create any charade to keep Hinrich on the court for extended minutes. This is just ridiculous if you think about it. Kirk Hinrich has been one of the worst clutch players in the NBA, while Gordon has been one of the best.
Then if you compare the guard production, here is what you get.
Derrick Rose - 16.7 PPG on 50.3 TS%
Ben Gordon - 20.0 PPG on 57.0 TS%
Kirk Hinrich - 9.0 PPG on 54.5 TS%
Larry Hughes - 12.0 PPG on 52.5 TS%
Kirk Hinrich's production simply doesn't warrant the reduction in Gordon's role.
If we keep Kirk Hinrich, that probably spells the end of Ben Gordon. Hinrich will continue to take away from Gordon's role, and the Bulls will be a worst team for it.
Why would Gordon want to stay on a bad team that jerks his role around for lesser players?
It is imperative for Kirk Hinrich to be off this team at the trade deadline.
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I would hold off trading Tyrus/Noah as add ons.
I’d like to see what both could do next to a real center, say Pryzbrilla or Kaman. They’re both power forwards, yet Noah is often being asked to play center, despite not having the strength for it.
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by Andrew7 on Jan 26, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes! This should be the number one priority. Your comments are dead-on accurate.
Still, it’s so unfortunate because Paxson and every Paxson’s coach who coached Paxson’s Kirk ruined turning Kirk into a good complimentary player who knows his role with a complimentary contract. Instead Paxson tried to turn Kirk into a franchise player, together with being a non example leader captain, to now being the defensive glue on a team now losing at a higher rate than when Kirk was injuired.
Actually it’s all Paxson’s fault, Kirk is only one of the victims of Paxson’s mismanagement..
(Noc, is another, then there’s Ben Gordon, etc, etc) The interesting thing is that this mismanagement has very little to do with the actual coaching.
Kirk needs to be traded, if possible! ASAP!
man up!
by exult463 on Jan 26, 2009 1:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Noc a victim
Noc has been a benefactor of Pax’s mismanagement to the tune of a 5yr deal, when he should’ve got 3yrs
by LOTP on Jan 26, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly.. but Noc @ 5 million annual for 3yr would make him a valuable asset to this team and many others
based on his production. No one would decry “trade” him!
Now he gets consistent ridicule because he takes up to much cap space and doesn’t even start. Is consistent ridicule, and severely unappreciated enough to make him a victim? What was him and his agent to do? Turn down the ’"stupid" overpaid contract from John Paxson?
man up!
by exult463 on Jan 27, 2009 12:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You know what? You make a very good point.
And to think Noce turned down a slightly bigger contract from the Grizz to stay with the Bulls.
by PatBull on Jan 27, 2009 7:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wha---?!?!?!
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 27, 2009 8:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ha!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 27, 2009 10:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"We are 2-6 since Kirk Hinrich has come back."
I don’t like such tactics when it suggests Aaron Gray should start, and I don’t like it now.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 26, 2009 2:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Maybe giving Andrew too much credit...
…but I thought that was simply an appeal to those who overvalue such things.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 26, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm fully in favor of Hinrich staying and Gordon going.
It will prove a disaster from a team that I no longer consider my favorite. It would be a great sideshow to my enjoyment of the entire NBA.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 26, 2009 2:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
don't be so dramatic
From what I’m told, Kirk Hinrich is not available, as numerous outlets continually speculate. The Bulls are a better team now that he’s back in the mix, a forward observer underlines.
“He is the closest thing to a leader we have. His tough play along with Andres Nocioni brings out the best in the others who are certifiably soft.”
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 26, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
“his tough play”…uhhh, have I been missing something?
…“a forward observer underlines” – Pax, is that you?
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Jan 26, 2009 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
His play has been tough lately...
… to watch.
by Sports2 on Jan 26, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You think 1 point in 23 minutes
on 0 for 7 shooting is hard to watch?
Geez, next you will be saying Aaron Gray is slow!
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 12:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thats Pax's problem
His lovefest w/ Hinrich, you need to move some players, and Hinrich brings back the most value, Hinrich is nothing more than a 12ppg 5apg player, very marginal, and you’ll probably be able to get back great value for a marginal player
by LOTP on Jan 26, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Billups is tradeable; Hinrich is not.
’Nuff said.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 26, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
One does wonder, if both Pax and VDN see themselves
when they look at Hinrich? Hard to explain why Kirk gets so much love, while the superior player in Ben Gordon is treated like a 14th man scrub.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 12:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?
BG got a contract offer that most of the league GM’s said was more than fair and that’s being treated like a 14th man scrub?
Man, those blinders….
by PatBull on Jan 27, 2009 7:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's send Ben to the bench,
since Duhon is a superstar!
Oops, the game is close in the 4th quarter, better sit Ben for Kirk!
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 9:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Look the point isn't Duhon being a better player than BG.
The point is that most NBA observers said that the Bulls offer was more than fair. Hence, why the assertion that BG is being treated unfairly?
If your point is that since Bulls overpaid for Noce, Hinrich and Deng, BG should be over paid too, well, that’s simply idiotic! Two wrongs don’t make a right.
And Ben plays in the fourth quarter. A lot. So he doesn’t have the ball, Rose does. Complain about Rose hogging the ball then. His case definitely isn’t like Deng’s who barely saw any 4th quarter minutes till recently.
by PatBull on Jan 28, 2009 3:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Hinrich should be traded
for the simple fact that he takes minutes away from Ben more than anyone else (not his fault) and because he’s overpaid as a backup….not because we’re 2-6 since he’s come back. I could care less about the record.
That’s why this whole notion that the Chicago media is suggesting of “should Vinny replace Ben with Kirk” is such garbage, it’s become comical. Can anyone in North America please tell me what Ben has done/not done to warrant getting replaced for Kirk??
Ben doesn’t deserve to keep getting yanked around because the rest of the team is underperforming. Hinrich was so bad against Minnesota it was a crime. Tell me how anything that Kirk has done vs. what Ben has done warrants a change?
It makes me sick even talking about it.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Jan 26, 2009 2:15 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Simple answer
Ben gives up more points than Kirk, and when Ben struggles to score his defense really becomes a liability
by LOTP on Jan 26, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can throw random shit against the wall too...
Ben is a better player than Kirk.
See how that works?
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Jan 26, 2009 4:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But that is true!
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 12:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk is [redacted]
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 12:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll tell you plainly .. the quote ..
“From what I’m told, Kirk Hinrich is not available,” … coming from GM’S OFFICE since he makes the deals ?
man up!
by exult463 on Jan 26, 2009 3:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Congratulations Andrew for having the courage to touch the 3rd rail of controvery surrounding this team...Kirk Hinrich.
Hinrich is symbolic of what has gone wrong with this team over the past 3-4 years. I’ll go as far as to say that the overvaluing of kirk Hinrich has done as much to fracture this team as the signing on Ben Wallace…maybe more. When Hinrich recieve his overvalued contract you were basically saying to Deng and Gordon “You are not as important or valuable as this guy”. " From that point forward, there was no way that Gordon and Deng were going to sign for less money knowing they were better players. Why do you think those two guys held out for more money? Deng knew he had more upside than Kirk and Gordon knew that he darn well better be compensated for coming off the bench in favor of Kirk starting. Selfish? Yes. But predictable? Of course. You set a tone by how you reward guys. What do you think will happen if LaMarcus Aldrige gets a larger contract than Brandon Roy? Or Rudy Gay gets a larger one than Mayo? Because folks that’s what happened here. Now you’re stuck with a rotten locker room and no ability to make better deals because you overvalued guys like Noc and Hinrich. Then you gave deng too much. The only guy on this team that is expected to deal with everything and just do his job is the team’s leading scorer ans only clutch player. BEN GORDON.
by Dils on Jan 26, 2009 3:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Clutch player?
According to 82 Games, Gordon shoots 37% in clutch situations.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 26, 2009 4:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon's been good in the fourth though.
I’ve noticed that Gordon has not been making the big shots in what they define as clutch, but big shots in the fourth quarter overall this year. Gordon has a 52 TS% in the clutch, which isn’t terrible, but nothing to write home about. Gordon shoots 56.0 TS% in the entirety of the fourth quarter, which is pretty good.
I think the drop in Gordon’s clutch efficiency is that this year, he’s only being asked to bail us out after Rose has failed, while in past years, he was the main option. Rose is only at 49.0 TS% as the main option in clutch play this season. So perhaps we should return Gordon to his old role of main option in the clutch, to see if his drop in efficiency is a result of role change, and then see if being the second option in the clutch helps Rose out. Because what Rose is doing in the clutch isn’t good. Gordon’s is a litttle below average this year, but has been great in the past, so it’s something we should really try.
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by Andrew7 on Jan 26, 2009 5:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would think having a better player next to Gordon...
Would increase his clutch efficiency…?
So you are saying that its Rose’s fault?
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 26, 2009 8:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We're taking away part of Gordon's game.
A big, efficient part of Gordon’s game is taking the ball at the top of the key and creating something. He hasn’t been allowed to do that in the clutch this year, that’s been Rose’s job. So Gordon has been regulated to the role of jumpshooter. Gordon has a nice shot, but he is not a jumpshooter, he’s an all around scorer. So when you take away a big part of his game, and he becomes much easier to defend.
And it’s not that Rose is making Gordon less by doing anything, it’s more that the dummy coach is changing Gordon’s clutch role because of Derrick Rose being on the court, and putting Rose in Gordon’s old role. Not that Rose has been doing anything to help Gordon raise his efficiency, as Rose throws up wild shots while Gordon is standing wide open in the corner.
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by Andrew7 on Jan 26, 2009 11:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"wide open in the corner"
whatever. Gordon has been missing last second shots for 3 years now. Give the rookie a shot. Kobe didn’t come in to the league making last second shots.
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 27, 2009 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll just chalk it up to "small sample size".
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 27, 2009 8:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and also according to 82 games, noah is 50%...
so i don’t get your point on bringing that up…………because you know and i know that gordon is our best clutch player..so that was really stupid of you to bring up…..hmm…“next time lets let noah take the last shot…cause according to 82 games, he shoots 50% in clutch situations.”
by masputo on Jan 26, 2009 5:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Its the only place I know that attempts to measure that stat.
And many people on this blog state that Gordon is a clutch player, like its a fact…and he is a decent clutch player, but its not like he is the best in league, conference or even division…the case could even be made, the team.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 26, 2009 8:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But he has been in past years.
Which is more than you can say about other players on our team.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 26, 2009 8:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He also used to play team basketball in past years...
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 26, 2009 8:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If only he had a contract.
Or was signed-and-traded.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 26, 2009 9:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't say the best
Its hard to see what others can do when Ben refuses to give up the ball in clutch situations and throw up an afwul shot after showing his lack of ability to break somebody down off the dribble.
by LOTP on Jan 27, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you know, the division does have LeBron James...
…and until recently, Chauncey Billups. Ya know, Mr. Big Shot. So, you’re not saying much there.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 26, 2009 9:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Clutch is a combo of perception and what actually happens
The numbers dispel the notion that Kobe is the best clutch player in the game as well. Ben is effective as an end of game scorer, as good as many have on their teams. I don’t think Rose is a better go-to scorer just yet. His outside shooting and ability to draw fouls has to improve.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 27, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather
I’d rather see D.Rose with the ball in the clutch, I’ve seen too many time where Ben has forced up a bad shot, turn the ball over, and just refuse to pass when the defender is locking him down, we need to face, lets look to the future, end your man love for Ben Gordon, his days as a Bull are numbered, Ben, your services are no longer needed
by LOTP on Jan 27, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think he's reading.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 27, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Look, let's make this simple and not get caught up in statistical jargon. Who has more game winning shots in their career? Ben Gordon or Kirk Hinrich?
How about Ben Godon and Deng? Gordon and Noce? Maybe Gordon and Rose? See where I’m going with this? The last game against the timberwolves was a prime example of Godon being left out in the cold despite the facts. It reminded me of the time Skiles didn’t even have Gordon on the floor in a playoff game against the Wizards his rookie year but allowed Hinrich to shoot the last shot. I love Rose but I’m amazed at the assumption that HE is the go to guy for last second shots. He hasn’t proved it yet and until he can do that give it to the guy that can and has. Gordon.
by Dils on Jan 26, 2009 5:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who?
Don’t leave me hanging…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 26, 2009 8:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what the hell are you talking about?
they ran a play right before the Rose shot for Gordon, he was wide open and he missed. Shut up
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 27, 2009 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone know how many buzzer beaters gordon has hit
in his career vs roses buzzer beaters this year?
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 27, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is old....
http://www.82games.com/random12.htm
But he was 7 for 13 on game winning shot attempts in his first two years. There were still a few games left in the 05-06 season when tehy put that up though, and I think Gordon might have hit one more game winner after that.
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by Andrew7 on Jan 27, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I cant believe you people
dont want to part with hinrich to get help in the front court.
by trade on Jan 26, 2009 6:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
ok
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 26, 2009 6:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would be happy to see St. Kirk go,
just because of all the people who think he brings Scottie Pippen level value to the team.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 12:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There is a reason ...
why BG has not been clutch in the last two seasons. He was forced to deal with double teams every night. He is the only person on this team that has to play against two players most of the game. Now that Rose is on the team and also demands a double team as well they really should be working together for the end of the game situation. Rose should have the ball just as much as Gordon. They could help take pressure off each other. I hope we re-sign BG again so he can play with Rose and then trade Hinrich for a Big. Can you imagine how good the bulls would be with Rose, BG, Deng and a Big who can score in the post?
by Beeman18 on Jan 27, 2009 12:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Imagine a starting lineup of
Rose, Hinrich, Deng, Noc and Gray on the Bulls, playing Miami with a Wade-Gordon back court, or maybe LA with a Kobe-Ben back court. Imagine the Bulls losing by 30 or 40 points.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 12:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You can replace Hinrich with Gordon in that scenario and still have the same result.
Imagine Rose, Gordon, Deng, Noc and Gray on the Bulls, playing Miami with a Wade-Hinrich back court, or maybe LA with a Kobe Kirk back court. Imagine the Bulls losing by 30 or 40 points.
So, what is your point?
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 27, 2009 9:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There'd still be a good chance we beat the Heat.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 27, 2009 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If I were betting,
I would take the odds of Gordon-Rose against Wade-Hinrich over Hinrich-Rose against Wade-Gordon any day.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 5:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Chad Ford on PGs on the block:
Hinrich 10% likely to be traded
By most accounts, Hinrich should be higher on the list. The Bulls have their point guard of the future in Derrick Rose, and Hinrich has real value in the league. The problem is, I don’t think John Paxson can pull the trigger because he’s a Hinrich fan. And, on a team that’s loaded with youth, Hinrich is a rare veteran presence.
I think the Bulls will most likely hang on to Hinrich for the rest of the season. However, the chances he gets traded will go up this summer, especially if there’s a new GM running the show in Chicago by then.
Better than 0%!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 27, 2009 12:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Ford's take...
The Summer is the time to trade Hinrich…and Gordon too.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 27, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or they could just trade Hinrich now
GMs know what he’s capable of and he’s had some good games since returning from injury. Defensively he’s shown his famous pestering ability that makes Bulls fans melt. I don’t see what’s barring them from moving him now.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 27, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Whats barring
Pax’s man love for Hinrich, thats the problem
by LOTP on Jan 27, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk is changing his name to Kirk Paxson, after the adoption papers are finalized.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 5:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I has to happen
The core of Deng-Hinrich-Gordon-Noc has to be broken up, so trade Kirk at the deadline or offseason, do a sign a trade w/ Ben, find a taker for Noc, Pax get it done, your man love for these players is screwing us
by LOTP on Jan 27, 2009 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben needs to stay, unless we sign Wade or Joe Johnson in 2010.
Then Ben would become a too expensive backup (like Kirk is now).
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 5:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And he could be used in the sign-and-trade to get Dwayne Wade 6 years in Chicago.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 27, 2009 9:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Trading very good (Ben) plus stuff for great (Wade)
is usually a long-term win for the team that gets the great player.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 9:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i've thought since early this year
that summer was going to be when hinrich would go, not during the season.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Jan 27, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm trending this direction as well
Neither stays, both go.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 27, 2009 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wish those odds had another trailing zero.
No I do not hate Hinrich, but the Bulls can use the salary space better, and Kirk can help a team that lacks a quality PG.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 5:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i agree that we should trade kirk
if the right deal comes along. but i dont think we just get rid of him clear up minutes for the other gaurds. u had some good points, but to compare kirk’s stats with gordon and rose doesnt make sense because he hasnt played enough games like they had. and i really think we need to slow down on the ben gordon being clutch statements. i cant remember the guy being clutch in the last 2 years. i know he was good his rookie year, but really when is the last time we saw him make a shot we really needed? gorodn is a shooter, if he feels it, we’re good and if he doesnt then we lose. all these close games that we lost wouldnt be if he hasnt been so out of form lately. if gordon can go back to how he’s played we’d win a lot more games. i also agree that kirk shouldnt cut into derrick’s minutes(espceiclly in the 4th). and can vinny please stop with the defensive/offensive subs… it has yet to work in our favor.
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
by Yibs on Jan 27, 2009 1:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I agree I think you wait until this summer to trade Hinrich I doubt you get anything done now.
Plus I don’t trust Paxson he’s to buddy buddy with his guys.
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 27, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Would you guys want Channing Frye?
My favorite teams are the Blazers and any team that is playing the Lakers.
by OCBlazerFan1 on Jan 27, 2009 1:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Blazer I have a trade for you
I worked this on ESPN’s trade machine, Hinrich, Cedric Simmons, and Joe Smith’s trade exception for Reaf Lafrentz expiring contract and Channig Frye, would you like that?
by LOTP on Jan 27, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Channing Frye
is Joel Przyzbilla, then yes.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 27, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk Hinrich has been one of the worst clutch players in the NBA, while Gordon has been one of the best.
Has he really? I can’t remember many, if any, game winning (or tying) shots from BG…
by smash! on Jan 27, 2009 3:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
thus, why statistics are good things.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 27, 2009 4:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Where are the stats you're referring to?
by smash! on Jan 28, 2009 5:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Any recorded fact of an event.
Like, looking though the game-logs and play-by-play for starts. Those are anywhere basketball stats are provided. If you don’t know where to find those…..
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 28, 2009 6:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So you don't have any facts to back up that statement.
K.
by smash! on Jan 28, 2009 7:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What statement?
That stats are good things because our memory is worthless for recording and recalling many, many individual events?
Yeah, be a smartass on that one.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 29, 2009 9:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The statement that this whole thread is based on-
that Gordon is one of the best clutch players in the league.
by smash! on Jan 29, 2009 6:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
seriously?
wow ok.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Jan 27, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't remember any this season.
Though they have been in short supply…Larry Hughes anyone…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 27, 2009 4:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We haven't let him shoot them.
And that’s the point. Rose has failed every single time to my recollection. The only one we succeeded on was a Rose failure that bounced out to Larry Hughes.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 27, 2009 4:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I should keep a log...
Because I remember several late shots by Gordon in close games this season that have not fallen…but, I didn’t keep a log, so I don’t recall exactly which games.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 27, 2009 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, seriously
I’m not a BG hater at all, and I’ve watched basically every Bulls game of his career and I don’t recall numerous game winning shots that would support him being labeled “one of the best” in the NBA.
Do you have stats on how many winning shots he’s hit? Seriously, I’m curious if the last 2 maddening seasons have drowned out my memories of good times and game winning shots…?
by smash! on Jan 28, 2009 4:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
From 82games.com
Game winning shots.
http://www.82games.com/random12.htm
Every year he’s been in the league, his overall clutch scoring has been ridiculous, and his scoring efficiency has been good (although his shot efficiency could have used some improvement).
He was 5th in clutch scoring in 07-08, 2nd behind Kobe in 04-05. That’s all I could find in terms of ranks, but his production was right there in 05-06 and 06-07.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 28, 2009 5:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a stat
that also considers how many times he wasnt productive in the clutch, or an anti clutch stat? Not being an ass, its just i think its a good way of understanding numbers or any evidence is to understand or study the counter evidence…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 28, 2009 5:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did you even follow the link?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 28, 2009 6:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, to be an ass, it pretty explanatory.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 28, 2009 6:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you dont have to point that out, its a given
but you definetly should point out when you are NOT being an ass…
:)
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 28, 2009 8:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
yes....
and i didnt find what i was looking for….
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 28, 2009 8:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What is your question?
What are you trying to figure out? What is “anti-clutch”? How about the number of shots he missed in those situations? That’s in there. How about turnovers? That’s in there?
You need to figure out what you’re looking for before you go looking for it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 29, 2009 9:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess ratio of made shots to missed shots could be important...
…or, in other words, FG%. That’s in there, too. Now, if you’re looking in there for something that shows Ben Gordon to be anti-clutch, then no, you won’t find it, because it’s not true.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 29, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Or... wasn't at the time those stats were recorded.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 29, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
His FG% arguably
Shows that he wasn’t that clutch (but not anti-clutch like Kirk). But when you go look at his TS% in the clutch, it’s been terrific throughout his career.
I think a good way to look at this is that the downfall of Ben as a clutch player has a lot to do with the downfall of our defense. We could rely on our defense to get the stop a lot more often than right now, which set up the stage for Ben to make the big shots, or a series of big shots. We came back from behind in the past, because not only did Ben hit big shots, but because our defense didn’t let the other team answer too often.
As our defense fell apart, more pressure was added on Ben to hit these shots. Ben was no longer the massive laser beam on the deathstar that destroyed the enemy, but became the only life-jacket on a sinking titanic.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 29, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He had a ton in his first two years.
If you extend it even through last year, while he had less game winners, he has had absolutely TONS of game tying shots.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 27, 2009 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
tying the game
only to have dwight howard steal it at the top of the key.
sorry, i will never get over that one.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Jan 27, 2009 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
haha me 2
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
by Yibs on Jan 27, 2009 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben Gordon got ripped here too and it led to a bad result.
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jan 27, 2009 6:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
haha that's the one
where kirk punches flip in the nuts.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Jan 28, 2009 8:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that was my favorite
better than evans just grabbing kaman’s nuts for no reason
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
by Yibs on Jan 28, 2009 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll never understand
How when Ben gets doubled, and can’t easily pass out of it, no one comes to get the ball. They just stand there, forcing Ben to force a wide pass around the double, that can go out of bounds a lot, or throw a high one over the double teams which are prone to be picked, or just leave him there trapped, to get stolen.
This is where the team misses Scott Skiles a bit, although Skiles usually let it happen during the regular season. But in the playoffs, Skiles made the adjustment. This is how the Bulls beat Miami (contrary to the stories about Deng leading us to victory). Ben Gordon would get the ball at the top of the key. He could drive, create shots for himself, he was absolutely deadly in this primary scorer role. When Miami would double, Skiles moved Andres Nocioni shadowing Gordon just below the key. Gordon would just drop a bounce pass between the defenders or a reach around to Nocioni, who was pretty much wide open. He could then drive to the hoop, or when Miami doubled him, passed it to the guy whose man rotated onto him.
Outside of that, the Bulls have not put in any special offensive things for when Gordon gets doubled, which is really disheartening, because just doing that could greatly improve this team.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 27, 2009 4:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Give it up.
The Kirk love, Ben hate is illogical.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 5:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Blinders, blinders...
BG is a good shooter who can be a bit streaky.
He has been better at defense this season than in past seasons but is he worth more than Deng? No. More than Rose (in the near future)? Definitely not.
More than Hinrich? Debatable. Personally, I’d rather have Hinrich defense and overall game than BG’s uni-dimensional one.
by PatBull on Jan 27, 2009 7:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben Gordon is worth more than everyone on this team.
He is worth more than Deng, worth more than Nocioni, worth more than Hinrich.
Derrick Rose should be the only player, currently on our roster, that is getting a bigger contract than Gordon, and that’s assuming Rose pans out.
Kirk Hinrich gets 9 points a game on above average efficiency. Luol Deng gets 14 points a game on bad efficiency. Ben Gordon gets 20 points on a game on great efficiency.
It’s really not hard to determine which one is more valuable.
Perimeter defense is pretty overrated in my opinion. A perimeter defender, unless he is like Bruce Bowen, who the refs ignore the handcheck rules for, really can’t stop an opposing guard from driving. The way to limit the drives effectiveness is having good help defense from your two interior players. So what’s that really leave for a perimeter defender? To contest shots, and Gordon is sufficient in that category.
The blaming of the guards for our lack of defense is misguided. Ben Gordon was a member of the best defense in the league as a starter playing big minutes just 2 seasons ago. What’s changed? The defensive ability of our big men, and the schemes and overall defensive strategy.
If you want a winning basketball team, you need two things. Efficient scorers filling your roster, with two lead sled dogs who can score in volume as well,, with the big men being able to play good defense. If you have those two things, you’ll have a good basketball team.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 27, 2009 8:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The mistake is comparing the dollar value of his contract.
To contracts of others on this team…his market value is determined independent of the contracts signed at different times by different players. In other words, Kirk Hinrich’s 5 years, $48M he signed in ’06 does not determine the market value of Ben Gordon in 2009. That is not how it works. Ben Gordon is only worth what he can earn on the open market, last Summer that dollar value was determined to be $6.4M, next Summer he will enter the true open market, without the threat of the Bulls matching any offer…we will then see if he is the max player you think he it, or the less than $10M per year role player I think he is…time will certainly tell.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 27, 2009 10:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd imagine OKC will offer Gordon at least $10 million
And I think they would be completely stupid not to, because Gordon would be a good complement to Durant, and it’s a better chance to get a “star” player than in 2010 for them, given what their team is. Take Durant, Gordon, and a top 5 draft pick in the 2009 draft, and put that together with Russell Westbrook, Jeff Green, and a 2010 free agent (maybe someone like Tyson Chandler) and you have a nice team put together.
I think the Knicks will make a strong play at Gordon too. There’s been a Gordon-D’Antoni love affair thing going on since last Spring, when D’Antoni was under consideration for the Bulls job. Gordon loves the idea of playing in D’Antoni’s offense, and having Gordon on board, would presumably make them a playoff team (given they might be one this year without him).
Miami also makes a lot of sense, since Mario Chalmers looks solid, but not great. Gordon is the perfect point guard to play next to a player like Rose.
And if it comes down to MLE vs. an $8 million a year offer from the Bulls, then I expect Gordon to take the MLE to sign somewhere like New York, Cleveland, San Antonio, Los Angeles, etc. (That would be assuming the Bulls are unwilling to do a sign and trade like they were last summer).
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 27, 2009 11:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You expect Gordon to take the MLE???
Wow, that is nuts.
While I feel that may be the best offer he gets on the open market next summer, I would expect him (and his agent) to be smart enough to accept the Bulls offer above that number, which they have shown in the past with their $50M+ offers they are willing to extend.
Ben Gordon has made it about money by declining those two offers, I doubt he would turn down the Bulls higher offer to spite the team. The MLE would be a terrible endgame for Gordon after giving up so much money the previous two seasons.
I do acknowledge that OKC could be a good fit for him, though I think Westbrook is more of a two than a one, making BG redundant. I don’t think Miami will spend its cap space on another two, when they have a pressing need in the interior and Pat Riley has always valued big men.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 28, 2009 12:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The MLE isn't an end game.
The MLE would be opening up an opportunity for Gordon. Say Gordon signs for the MLE on the Knicks. He gives them the talent needed to make the playoffs next season. Gordon signs a three year MLE deal with them. He gets his stats mass inflated under D’Antoni (maybe around 25-28 PPG for Gordon?), and is used as a marketing piece along with Duhon and D’Antoni to market the Knicks to 2010 free agents.
Basically the Knicks marketing pitch would be, you get to play for offensive mastermind Mike D’Antoni who is a very player friendly coach. You get Chris Duhon as your point guard, he’s selfless, plays tough defense, and will get you the ball. Ben Gordon is your second option and a damn good one (points to the season of 25-28 PPG as the lead guy in D’Antoni’s offense, if not more), and third option if they pursue two big name free agents. That’s the Knicks free agent pitch.
Then when Gordon’s contract expires, they will have his bird rights in hand. The Knicks are known as an organization that’s willing to spend lots of money, so using his bird rights, they reward him hansomely, with a near-max or max deal.
Would you rather sign with the Bulls for say $8 million a year or the MLE for three years (which would be around $6.5 million a year)?
With the Bulls you are signing with a bad team, that likes to jerk your role around, and are known to be cheap when handing out player contracts.
With the Knicks you are signing with a team that is just as good if not better than the Bulls right now, despite not having you, that will give you a fixed, full time starter role, has a genius of a coach, and are known to reward their players with big contracts.
The Knicks on the MLE seem a lot more attractive than the Bulls, and seem like the better place for a bigger future payoff.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 28, 2009 12:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Forgot one thing.
BG signs MLE, injures knee/ankle/foot/hand in freak accident/fast break/robbery etc…(God forbid) goodbye career for MLE.
by PatBull on Jan 28, 2009 3:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, the MLE are you nuts?
Especially at 3 years, $19.5M as you posit…especially after turning down over $50M guaranteed. The Bulls could offer 6 years, $60 with standard raises and the first year of that deal would be just under $8M. So, think about it, $60M guaranteed vs. $19.5M guaranteed. That is $40.5M difference in guaranteed money.
But your position is that he could make that difference up with his next contract following the MLE…in order to do that, he would have to sign a three year deal with the first season at just over $12M. Possible, but is it worth the gamble of injuries, the whims of a coach who only plays 8 guys, poor play or even the changing economy. I would that is a resounding no.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 28, 2009 8:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bulls didn't offer him 60 over 6 this year.
They only offered him $54 million over 6 years. Which is ~9 million a year. Do you honestly think the Bulls won’t try to use the lack of team success and the economic situation against him? I easily foresee the Bulls lowballing Gordon for the third year in a row.
I could be wrong though. They might come out with a strong offer to get Gordon to re-sign quickly, rather than signing with another team.
Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.
by Andrew7 on Jan 28, 2009 9:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
6 for 60?
Where are you coming up with these numbers? The bulls offered 6 for 54 last year and you expect them to offer more? Why?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 28, 2009 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Those numbers are hypothetical, an expansion of the 5/50 offer he received the year before.
Additionally, that places his starting salary around $8M. The Bulls were foolish enough to make offers in that range the past two offseasons when there were no threats of other teams signing their player, I would expect a similar offer this summer. I am not hung up on that number, I would be happier if the Bulls offered him much less.
What I cannot imagine is Ben Gordon or his agent settling for the MLE, if there is a better offer on the table from the Bulls. It doesn’t make sense.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 28, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't Gordon and Durant be killing each other over shots?
I do wish he’d go there. Then we can see how Durant and Gordon freeze each other out. Durant isn’t going to hand over the team to Gordon.
And an MLE? You have to be kidding. Please say you’re kidding!
by PatBull on Jan 28, 2009 3:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wish i had more data but
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM
considering last year as an example, it also shows that ben gordon was also one of the most turnover prone in clutch time.
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 28, 2009 6:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but not as much as wade, kobe, mcgrady, kirilenko
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 28, 2009 6:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it does come with the territory
if you are constantly handling the ball in crunch time, your TO rate is going to be pretty high. other people can’t turn it over if they’re not the ones with the ball.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Jan 28, 2009 6:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unless your Kirk Hinrich
then you have a low(ish TO rate) and truly remarkable FG%
by reprisal on Jan 28, 2009 6:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's kind of my point.
Gordon was used no less, relatively speaking, than most of those guys. Saying he’s turnover prone based off of that, while ignoring the guys I mentioned is disingenuous. Unless one considers those guys “turnover prone” as well, in which, well, yeah…
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 29, 2009 9:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kirk Hinrich has NEVER been clutch in any situation.
And if there is one or two that I can’t think of right now, he’s never been SO dangerous that the other team deemed it necessary to double team him. Do you all realize what this means? It means that over the past 2 years or so, the opposition has decided it would rather deal with a wide open or single covered Kirk Hinrich than Ben Gordon. The last 2 seasons, Gordon was double teamed down the stretch in game after game because it became apparent that he was the only capable scorer when the intensity of the game was elevated.
You can win with Ben Gordon as your shooting guard and as your second or third option. You WILL NOT win with Hinrich as your lead player!!
by lexdiamonds0730 on Jan 27, 2009 6:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich's defense might be overvalued at times,
but let’s not underrate it either. In that Spurs game Tony Parker was destroying Rose, but those forays to the hoop dropped dramatically when Kirk came in. Maybe it was also the plays they were running, but the message is clear: an opposing player can have his way with Derrick Rose guarding him, and often with Ben Gordon guarding him. But with Kirk guarding he’ll have to work harder.
by T Maple on Jan 27, 2009 4:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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