This team needs direction from the top
by Sports2 on Jan 26, 2009 8:19 AM CST
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Print[From the fanposts. I was hoping a nice trade rumor would bail me out this morning, since I don't feel like discussing yet another close and late loss. I suppose it's improvement of the blowout losses, but that's what happens when you get your captains back. So enjoy this post instead, if you haven't seen it already -ed.]
Often on Bulls sites, I see blame for various things (most recently D'Antoni's botched hiring) assigned to Reinsdorf or Paxson. After looking back at events, I first want to give my impression of the history and then draw some lessons from it.
First, there is some clear evidence from Reinsdorf’s interviews during the coaching search. My impression of this summer is that it went down something like this.
* Reinsdorf said Pax recommended the hire D’Antoni. God only knows what happened between Reinsdorf and D’Antoni, but it seems clear that things went south after Pax had more or less signed off. So I would say that’s a clear case where, if Pax had the full authority to do the job, he’d probably have gotten D’Antoni.
So while I can’t definitively say, I consider it an instance of Reinsdorf failing where Pax on his own would have succeeded. On the other hand, if getting what you want from a fickle owner is considered part of Paxson’s job, he failed miserably.
* The fact that Collins went to Reinsdorf directly, and Reinsdorf came out later and said something to the effect of ‘Pax is struggling to find a coach so I wanted to help’ (I can dig up the exact quote if ya want it) seemed to me to be a pretty obvious no confidence vote in Pax by Reinsdorf. Which is understandable given that, from Reinsdorf’s perspective, Pax had just given his hearty recommendation that he hire D’Antoni, and that blew up in his face. And that he had nothing afterwards.
* Likewise, if I think it’s pretty understandable that Pax wouldn’t, regardless of what he might have thought under other circumstances, want Collins installed as coach under those circumstances.
* So you get to a situation now Pax probably doesn’t have Reinsdorf’s full confidence any more, but for whatever reason (who knew Reinsdorf was such a sentimental teddy bear?) he just didn’t want to axe him. Especially when, after seeing the mess, Collins probably didn’t want to step into it any more.
* So then what? You start over. If you’re Reinsdorft, you step back and let Pax go back to the drawing board since perhaps you mucked up his choice, even if you think it sucked. So Pax starts over coaching search, eventually settling on VDN after multiple interviews with guys who now look like better candidates. I don’t see much evidence that Pax was railroaded into selecting the Hair, so that’s pretty much on him.
So at best, I can imagine that Reinsdorf’s interference might have cost D’Antoni. However, that doesn’t excuse Paxson from ultimately hiring Vinnie, who’s pretty disastrous.
So what's the lesson here? Well, why did D'Antoni go to New York? Forget everything else... if you go to a job interview and see that your boss and his boss don't quite seem to be on the same page (possible understatement), are you going to go there, or are you going to go to the place where everyone seems on-board and has a plan.
New York offered that. Donnie Walsh said here's the plan. I'm going to ruthlessly cut salary, and you're going to have to work with whatever happens to fit in that plan. Within the scope of that plan, you're the man and I'll do whatever you want.
In short, the lesson is to have a plan get everyone on board with it.
Pax spoke frequently during the coaching search of wanting to find someone who would "set the tone". It always sounded to me that he was looking for someone to do his job for him. Vinnie, ever eager to say he was up to the challenge, was glad to be handed the mess. Whereas more seasoned guys looked at it and saw that getting on board a ship with no one at the helm was not a good idea, he was eager to put on the captain's hat.
Not surprisingly he failed. I think with this roster, pretty much any coach would. It's just that Vinnie was desperate enough to try. Unlike Scott Skiles, a couple years ago, who was also desperate, Vinnie wasn't backed up with strong direction from the top. Also, unlike Scott Skiles, Vinnie appears to be a shitty coach.
But for all the talk of firing Vinnie, which needs to be done, it's going to be pointless unless this team picks a direction. I see people talking about Avery Johnson and while he didn't sound great the first time around, having a guy who really is a leader, and has a track record of developing a hell of a young point guard sounds pretty good at this point.
But I seriously doubt he comes here if he sees a team that has no direction. So Pax, Reinsdorf, decide. Jerry, if you want to second guess Pax, fire him. Hire Doug Collins to be the GM. Or let Pax make his decisions and live with them. Whomever is running the show, Balance this roster. Get some defense and a vet up front to go with the kids. Unclog the backcourt. Get the cap in order, one way or another. Make a decision about 2010 and execute it. Even if you can't do it all at once, decide what you're gonna freaking do. As you said, Pax, someone needs to set the tone. Unfortunately, you didn't understand it was you and your boss.
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I think it's pretty clear at this point
Reinsdorf has to fire Paxson. Then he has to fire Del Negro.
Del Negro cannot coach. Del Negro cannot put together rotations that play the best players on the team.
Paxson cannot assemble a roster. He had moves he had to make in the offseason and failed to make them because he needed to see how this roster could perform. He put his faith in Del Negro to put together a new car out of used car parts.
Del Negro then plays Nocioni for 17, 18, and 19 minute stretches to finish games. He watches as his 5 man unit cannot defend the high screen. He watches as his 5 man with Hinrich, Nocioni, and Gray turns it over 10 times. He’s getting the least out of the crap that Paxson has given him to work with.
There are no indicators left that show further investment in time with Paxson or Del Negro will go anywhere but to the floor.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2009 10:48 AM CST reply actions 10 recs
rec'd
Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team.
-- Scottie Pippen
by Orlando Woolridge on Jan 24, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
rec'd - Our leadership has taken reasonable talent and molded them into a horrible team
I would add that we need someone who believes passionately in a vision to succeed. If you do not have some plan on how to get there you are not likely to arrive. I posted multiple times during the coach search the importance of finding a coach who has a clear vision and believes he can impose his will on a team. VDN is waiting for the players to deliver. Why should the players deliver when the GM and coach haven’t let them know exactly what they need to do to succeed?
The Knicks GM Walsh had confidence that D’Antoni could mold a team into D’Antoni’s vision. D’Antoni twice has taken players worse than ours, a team with no viable center and fit them into his mold. After a 6-3 start Walsh blew up the team to get under the cap. Their best players Crawford and Randolph were traded. D’Antoni’s overcame a second flawed roster and I predict will have this team finish ahead of us and maybe even make the playoffs. That is the leadership missing on the Bulls. Sports2 has it right – we lack leadership to mold players around a vision that the coach feels passionately will work. D’Antoni passionately believes his uptempo style works and has twice this year taken a horrible roster and is molding them into a reasonable team. Our leadership has taken reasonable talent and molded them into a horrible team.
by chgobr on Jan 24, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sports2 insightful and probably dead-on accurate..
with the addition of chgobr & NBA Observer comments, I need not say nothng.
I’ll look forward to the Chairman’s statement, hopefully soon …
man up!
Without the miracle of landing #1 pick and getting DRose,
Paxdorf’s team would have only won 10-12 games during the first half of this season.
HORRIBLE.
Rose has been hitting a bit of a rookie wall lately, but even with that, he’s our best player. He can’t be freaking SUPERMAN every single game (at least not yet) like during the first 20-30 games when he was playing at an ALL-STAR level for 44 minutes/game. It was unsustainable as a rookie…with that minute load, with this shitty team unable to carry some of the load. Plus, other teams have adjusted their defenses to contain Rose.
VDN & Pax had no plan but were thinking the first 20 games that Superman would save their reputations and/or jobs. Not happening without a MAJOR roster change that gives them INTERIOR DEFENSE. Team doesn’t play D worth a damn since they don’t have the personnel, meaning the team loses unless DRose is getting hammered 10+ times a game in the lane for freethrows. Not sustainable.
by KentuckyBullsFan on Jan 24, 2009 6:25 PM CST reply actions
Poor Derrick Rose...
These clowns are overplaying him because they dont know what else to do. Use him, play him, mold him for the future… but dont burn the guy out. I’m sure DRose loves to be out on the floor PLAYING basketball, and sure we love to watch him do it, but bottom line is that these guys need to go before they squander our teams youth.
Back to the future
VDN:
“The guys who are going to play hard and buy into the system will be out there,” he said. "Sometimes that means maybe some of your better players aren’t going to play as much. That doesn’t help your chances of winning games.
“More important for us is building the right culture and finding the guys who want to work. Then we’ll make adjustments from there with personnel.”
So, Pax’s excuse is he keeps getting let down by the players he runs out on the court. And VDN willing to salute that flag.
Doesn’t this sound like what we first heard from Pax and Skiles when they came to town?
So, fittingly enough, we’ve come full circle back to where it started. All apparently that can be done is head off once again on the long trail to find Pax’s kind of hustle and work hard players. Yep, that’s the plan. Must be another 5 or 10 Nocionis out there somewhere, right?
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. How many times have we been fooled so far? This ain’t no plan, it ain’t gonna work, and it’s the obit for Pax regime.
So VDN is admitting that a bunch of guys haven't bought in
I wonder what Pax thought about that, since most of these guys (I guess Hughes is the only real exception) are guys that he brought in when he was talking about changing the culture.
That IS what Pax is thinking....
Pax= Having looked around at the mess, and coming up with nothing as a way out….trade situation looking really poor/scary, coach scary bad, and player/team coherence non existent… he’s falling back on his core belief which we’ve heard over and over when times get tough. It’s the players, stupid.
We bought it, most of us, the first few times around the block. No mas.
Pax= They simply aren’t trying hard enough, or if they are trying then they aren’t buying into the system, or if they are buying into the system then somehow we just don’t have the talent, and if we do have the talent, then they don’t know how to play together and if they do know how to play together then it’s they just aren’t trying hard enough. Circle Jerk, in other words. We’ve sussed it, how this approach turns out, and it’s shite, mate.
I was being a bit sarcastic about how Pax keeps getting let down by his players (Skiles take too)…, but the glaring point is that, as this thread features…there is no plan. Pax been moving his pieces around, and as has been said, neglected to take care of some important moves, and now it’s check mate. Game over.
I guess the one saving grace is that they get to start over w/ Rose?
except that now, they won’t be getting two relatively-high lottery picks the following year to go with their PG because they have too many okay players
If they were getting two Top-7 picks this year, I’d be extremely excited about the future going forward. Not because this draft is great, but because Rose will be and one of those two would be bound to be at least close to as promising as Gordon or Deng. I would think.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
How much different is Rose from a young Kirk?
If things remain the same (mgmt/org), might Derrick Rose development be hampered also?
man up!
He can finish around the rim!
This is a huge difference.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Sure, there's a difference and it might be perceived large?
A 2003 version of Kirk with a 2009 version of Rose?
I guess my major argument is I have no confidence that this Paxson organization will create a culture and environment for Rose to get any better, He’ll be Derrick Rose with great finishing ability, but ineffective as Kirk in making his teammates any better.
Already, paring Kirk on the court at the same time with Rose is another one of Paxson’s major mistakes which will kill Derrick Rose development. With this mistake, I get that same ill feeling I get with Paxson when I favored him drafting Brandon Roy over Tyrus, and when he replaced Tyson with Ben “moody” Wallace in the summer of 2006.
It’s important that two of the three much leave this team (ASAP). Paxson, Rose and Kirk. Paxson is a given, without any option he must be replaced. As for Rose or Kirk, both will have an opportunity to excel in different organizations on different teams from one another.
Hopefully, the “one” that stays with the Bulls, won’t have Paxson around to continue his carnage of players careers because of his lack of direction, knowledge, team talent chemistry and leadership
man up!
A big difference
Faster, more athletic, a higher ceiling, Kirk was maxed out yr 3, also bigger, stronger, better passer
Exactly
More explosive, better passer, taller (I believe), and more of a leader on the court.
I like Kirk though, but there’s no question Rose is better now then Kirk was as a rookie (And he’s 3 years younger) and will be infinitely better long term.
I do think the Rose development is going by well, can’t criticize there. Rose may not be playing like he did in Nov and Dec, but that’s likely more to do with the strain/rookie wall. He’s getting his minutes, he’s focusing more on passing, and he’s gradually doing a better job defending….hell our D looked pretty solid against the Wolves until the big Marshmallow came in and ruined the mojo we had going.
You can criticize this org for a lot of things, but for D. Rose development, it’s first and foremost too early and secondly they seem to be doing nothing but work at his development. Derrick will dramatically improve in this off season when he watches tape and works on his weaknesses more….for chrissakes he’s playing more than 37 MPG…..and that’s the best way to develop a rookie, throw him out there for the year let him see what he can and can’t do and become familiar with his current strengths and work on the cannot do’s this offseason….
Wish we did the same last year with Tyrus….
Rose and Hinrich have the same standing reach
according to Draft Express which is the “tallness” measurement that matters most. Rose is 10 pounds heavier, which looks to be bone and muscle, not fat.
More explosive, better passer, taller (I believe), and more of a leader on the court.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 26, 2009 8:03 PM CST up reply actions
the other tallness measurement that matters is leaping ability and Rose has that all over Hinrich.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 26, 2009 8:10 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
Rose’s “hops” (among other things) make him a much better finisher at the rim than Kirk.
No-step vertical: Rose 34.5", Kirk 29", Max vertical: 40"/33.5"
Kirk is not a bad athlete, but Rose is (of course) exceptional.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 26, 2009 8:33 PM CST up reply actions
To VDN's
credit, he has been getting more out of Noah and Tyrus lately…..fould trouble notwithstanding, those guys are turning things around.
I’m not going to defend him much more because we still see too much big Aaron (A guy who should always be on DNP-CD’s for the rest of the year) and like others have said, Nocioni cannot play 17-18 minutes straight to close a game, if he could he’d be the starter over Deng, so that’s a problem…
But Paxson needs to make a trade, even if it’s not a flashy trade, pickup a backup C/PF (C first…though I guess the _rew injury doesn’t help there, still)….
THen Paxson should let Vinny go, coach this team for the rest of this year (his last chance) and if nothing turns around, Reinsdorf should give him the axe.
Pax made this team, he needs to fix it. We’re too talented to be as bad as we are (just good enough to get a lead with 3 minutes left in the game, to then cough it up at the end…that’s a sign of coaching and matchups more than anything else)……
I agree with everything that has been said here and I really belive that this is the source of the Bulls problem.
I think there should be a general rule from now on that because of this inept organization, starting from the top, that no one on this roster under the age of 25 can totally be judged. Truthfully folks, we don’t know what we have here because the people who should be running the show have no since of direction. Not to make exuses for millionaires who play basketball for a living, but on any job we would feel the same way. If the coaches and management have no track record or direction to take us, why should anyone follow them?
Certainly it seems
that the collective bargaining agreement makes the players much more difficult to replace. By trying to dump them at such a young age you really sacrifice years, not merely money.
Changes at the top can happen anytime ownership wishes.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 25, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
agree.
the Chicago Bulls is a terribly (or amazingly) inconsistent franchise. so inconsistent, it’s inconsistently inconsistent. even the players are inconsistent, they don’t even know their roles.
also, there seems to be some unneccesary drama between every player and the coaching/office personnel. Most recently, what is going on with Ben Gordon? What the heck did he do SO wrong to get all this bad mouthing? Ben has been the most mature player on the bulls his whole career. VDN appears too sensitive; demanding respect and reverance.
respect is earned- not by what you’ve done, but what you’re doing. if VDN doesn’t have his players respect, it doesn’t matter how good a coach he is.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Jan 25, 2009 12:59 PM CST reply actions
even if reinsdork gets rid of pax and VDN
whats to say that this same stuff wont happen again, with jerry still calling the shots
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
The problem I see is that Reinsdorf and Paxson didn't appear to be on the same page
And anything is an upgrade from that.
To put it simply:
Paxson by himself might have delivered D’Antoni.
Reinsdorf by himself might have delivered Collins.
Put Paxson and Reinsdorf together and it delivered Vinnie Del Negro.
D’Antoni would be my first preference, but I’d much prefer Collins to Vinnie Del Negro.
More subtley, I suspect Collins, at this point, very well might be GM material. If a GM is going to have any success with a potentially meddling owner, it’s going to be a guy who has the stature, experience, and relationship to voice his own opinion to that owner. I think it’s fairly evident from the events of last summer that Paxson does not have that, at least any more. But in those respects, Collins is the ideal GM candidate.
Similarly, Jerry Colangelo, who’s friends with Reinsdorf, a former owner himself, and who I believe, voiced some willingness to be continue to be involved in the NBA despite selling the Suns.
In short, there are a couple guys Reinsdorf could turn to who have the right combination of being “made NBA men” and having his confidence. That’s where I’d look if I wantted to get this team going in a unified direction.
by Sports2 on Jan 26, 2009 9:16 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
yes
but still i think the man problem stems from reinsdof himself. i know he needs to sell the team to get rid of him. but i do like the idea of collins as the GM, then maybe PAX can try his luck at coaching.
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
I've thought about Doug Collins as a better replacement for GM?
Yet, as I read your comments above and how you outlined an important criteria for this position, I now question whether Collins is the best candidate? Although, I believe Collins would be a better upgrade over Paxson.
imho, Collins has always shown a propensity to let MJ run the teams in which Collins coached and jordon played. Therefore, it seems Collins was unable to provide Jordon with guidance and leadership that help propel his game higher. Might, Doug Collins, defer too much to Jerry Riensdorf without having his own plan and strategy?
man up!
I know that you asked for a trade rumour, but this was the best I saw
Poopsworld reported that Hughes might not be traded this season. At least they say that Hughes could stay on the bench until the end of the season.
Hughes Back to the Wizards… But Not Yet
Larry Hughes probably wants to be traded more than any other player in the league right now. He’s a talented guy nearing 30-years-old that wants to make the most of his career as he hits the age most players in their prime. The Bulls want to go young, which means Hughes hasn’t played a single minute in several games.
The Hughes-to-New-Jersey rumors have simmered down quite a bit lately, but a report by ESPN.com’s Marc Stein suggests that Hughes’s old team, the Washington Wizards, have probably more interest in the shooting guard than any other organization. The only problem is that they really don’t have anything the Bulls want outside of Etan Thomas, who’s currently injured and will be through the February 19th trade deadline.
Don’t be surprised to see Hughes still on the Bulls’ roster through the end of the season, and probably given the option to spend the last third of the games sitting at home to collect a check. He’ll be a bigger asset next season when his $13 million salary becomes an expiring contract in the year that everyone’s trying to create cap space for the star free agent class of 2010.
Sorry, Bulls fans—I know you want to see Hughes cashed in right now, but it’d be smart to cash him in after the season’s over. In the meantime, he’s likely to stay where he is.
I still firmly disagree with the "more value" next season conventional wisdom.
When sit down and think it through, it makes less sense to me.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Why?
People won’t want to pay say $20M for Hughes for the next year and a half, especially given locker room concerns with him…..but they may be much more inclined to pay $6.5-7M at next year’s deadline for him to remove the $13.6M from their payrolls and give them a portion or depending on their current situation all for the big 2010 FA class).
I don’t understand why folks don’t get that at all, especially given the class that is heading our way, and try as we might, I don’t think our youth movement makes us real players in their unless we decide to unload the Tyrus-Noah-Deng’s on our team…..because otherwise we just pay for the development of other team’s soon to be good when they leave the Bulls players….I think we’ll likely keep the money to resign Tyrus and Noah and Rose (of course Rose)….
The only thing that might make us think otherwise would be a Jermaine O’Neal trade because of the albatross size of his contract that could lock in a lot of money for us to go after a Chris Bosh….
You have to match salaries and trades, right?
And they’re not simply going to swap a 2010-expiring contract for Hughes, right? Because, what’s the point in that if he hasn’t played for an entire year?
So the Bulls would have to take back a salary that “matches” Hughes within 25% and goes past 2010, right? Why would they do that?
Give me a good answer for that (seriously, I’ve yet to read one), and we can discuss further reasons why.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Yes you do
But again the Bulls aren’t going to be in the 2010 sweepstakes. Hughes’s off the book ssalary isn’t enough for us to make a major run at a big FA, especially with extensions for Noah, Tyrus and Rose on the horizon to worry about….
We’re not a player in that scenario, but we might be able to get a nice player or two to fill in some holes (backup 4/5’s and a starting 2 for Hughes and some trim the fat—Hinrich perhaps)….
It’s silly to think we’re a player for 2010 when all we’ve been trying to do is develop our young guys….I guess though given this org, stranger things have happened.
Now if we had
O’Neal that could be a different story because he makes a ghastly $10M more than Hughes…..
Matching Hughes salary = back up bigs?
I’m not buying it that it will be a prudent move. Those are expensive backups.
The only thing I can see happening is where a team has a $5-6 million multi-year contract and a $6-7 million 2010 expiring contract. Getting Hughes takes more money off their books and only adds $5-6 to the Bulls 2011 salary. But that’s a very small possibility that something like that materializes, and I think betting on that longshot is as bad as betting on the 2010 summer.
Of course, if the Bulls DON’T re-sign Gordon (which I don’t expect), they will VERY MUCH be part of the 2010 summer plans.
As always, your plan seems fine in a generalized, theoretical, easy-to-understand, un-thought-out sort of way (which is why it’s conventional wisdom) but actually pulling it off is faaaarrrr more unrealistic than it seems. If you could give one actual, real possibility (with like names and stuff), I might re-think it.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
It's not just a
Larry trade by himself…..
I think that’s the disconnect. Larry and possibly Kirk for a decent run of a few players (a backup big, a SG, more depth)….
I don’t understand why whenever we disagree, you resort to name calling first….
Obviously I’m not the only person to think this way, as evidenced yet again.
I don’t think us not having BG means we’re a player in 2010 either…..unless we don’t do anyting this summer and don’t trade Hughes….by which point the little fan base we have left will be completely gone and our youngs (Rose, Thomas, Noah) will be dying to get out of CHicago.
Might as well have...
As always, your plan seems fine in a generalized, theoretical, easy-to-understand, un-thought-out sort of way (which is why it’s conventional wisdom) but actually pulling it off is faaaarrrr more unrealistic than it seems. If you could give one actual, real possibility (with like names and stuff), I might re-think it.
Why is my thought un-original, un thought out when all you’re saying is following the masses and trade him for crap to move a SG issue into a SF issue, especially when we hope the SF is here to stay and can rebound into his old form….and is likely a Bull for the long haul or until something better comes to play next season (coupling him a solid SF with an expiring Hughes to get a veteran presence perhaps we need)…
Damn
I even previewed that one…..and it worked on the preview, but appears at least now to not be grayed out….
Oh well.
The block-quote works according to what I see.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 26, 2009 8:15 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah
It wasn’t appearing at first, but when I left and reenterd the site I saw it there….weird work cpu thing I guess.
How is it
Unrealistic to think we might get some value out of the expiring Hughes. I mean recently we saw Gasol traded for Kwame Brown for cap relief.
We saw Zach Randolph traded to the Clippers for Tim (he who doesn’t try and is old) Thomas and a guy who had to retire Cuttino Mobley…..and while this one’s different because A.I. sells tickets, the Pistons even traded their leader (Billups) to the Nuggets for perenially better on paper worse for a team Allen Iverson just to get that cap relief.
We know there are a lot of teams out there with good guys who aren’t fitting, or teams that are a mess, and the Bulls might be able to dangle Hughes more attractively next year.
We’re both talking in generalities since nothing’s happening. WHy resort to unprovoked name calling yet again is beyond me. Rethink, please and look at recent history. Team’s don’t trade players much anymore, they trade contracts/dollars…..Bulls can dangle a decent SG for a team needing some guard spark, and one of the good, declining but no longer necessary (Hinrich esp, but on the right team perhaps Noc) and who knows maybe even no longer BYC Luol Deng and get some real talent in return.
a decent SG who hasn't played in a year.
I’ve talked specifics. You continue to stay in theory-land.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I'm open to change my mind...
…but citing the aggressive moves of NYK (which, as I said, are not happening a year from now, but recently) or the once-in-a-decade Pau Gasol trade isn’t convincing me.
Your refusal to look up even one possibility bores me.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Why
Wouldn’t aggressive moves be happening next year, given the free agent climate.
True New York moved early on this, but other teams will move, they just don’t have the benefit of the huge market that stays with the team regardless of how pathetic they’ve been (more pathetic than the Bulls, though sadly perhaps less so this year even with a wildly less talented on paper roster, given the nice coaching job by D’Antoni).
The league’s never seen such a boon of free agents either, so I wouldn’t be as suprised if a few Gasol esque (maybe not quite as good as Pau because he’s awesome and was so criminally underrated) trades going through……and unlike the Pau trade, folks can make a Gasol like talent for expiring trade next year and not get the public ire of Memphis because that free agent class is so overwhelming and glitzy.
Was Gasol that awesome until he played
for one of the all time great coaches?
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 26, 2009 8:18 PM CST up reply actions
Yes.
Gasol was that awesome under the czar, and then he got hurt and folks thought that he was underrated…..
Memphis was a mess and didn’t play hard, but Pau was very much in the awesome player category for the Grizz before his injury (and was absolutely phenomenal in the 2006 WC’s before he got hurt.
He was a great player on a bad team.
See for yourself
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gasolpa01.html
I’d say he’s been pretty consistent, his TS% is up this year, and he obviously isn’t the focal point of the offense anymore.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 26, 2009 9:47 PM CST up reply actions
I'd say Gasol has way more passing opportunities
due to the triangle and Kobe.
I should look up some Gasol quotes about triangle to see his impressions. It’s made for guys like him.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 27, 2009 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
Right, LA takes advantage of his skill set more
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 27, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
LA has a great coach.
Too bad JR/JK ran him off, otherwise he might have been willing to come back to the Bulls after a sabbatical when it was clear Tim Floyd was terrible.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
what's the difference between his expiring 2010 money
and some other expiring 2010 money acquired for him? Maybe the other guy can play, or not play and be quiet. Or simply be taller.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 26, 2009 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
There is no difference
If it’s another SG (since we all know or believe BG’s on the way out), but why make a guard glut a SF glut, especially when Luol’s been playing so shitty of late?
I’d rather just spoil one position against the org on this team, not 2.
Luol's not playing shitty of late
it’s not a glut if you don’t pay them.
and other players don’t ‘spoil’ like Larry Hughes can.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 26, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
Luol's
Playing a bit better, but is not playing consistently well and hasn’t been playing to his potential much this year (besides the 3rd quarter last game, and the Cavs game)….
He isn’t playing quite like the Luol we’ve grown to like/appreciate
Also
How do we know we won’t play them and that they won’t be a cancer?
I see a lot of Big Aaron time in lieu of the much better Noah, and I see a lot of 15-18 minute straight stretches of Nocioni in lieu of the much more skilled, better upside Tyrus….
Why wouldn’t we see some Simmons in lieu of Deng and Thabo when Deng has issues with his shot and confidence….
that's a good point
they could get someone horrendously bad for Hughes, but VDN might still play him.
Maybe they should get players with one leg, just to be certain :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 26, 2009 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
Or retirees with a heart murmer...
Hey Eddy Curry’s available….
I actually feel bad for Eddy of late, he was always supposed to be “a good kid”….and all this crap especially the past 2 weeks sucks. I know he’s making a TON to do little—on the monetary side, but personally this sucks….I hope he can bounce back.
The second worst thing to ever happen to Eddy Curry
was Krause trading Brand for Tyson. Playing next to an established 4 would have done wonders for Curry’s development.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 26, 2009 8:21 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah
But I still don’t know if Curry would have developed. His work ethic was not good. He played next to an established 4 in NYC in Z-Bo, and while folks want to knock Z-Bo for not passing, etc. Randolph is still playing in this league and playing well, whereas Curry can’t get a lick o’ time and is still out of shape.
Curry never really improved after his 3rd year in the league. It’s a shame. A wasted talent.
Well, Curry is what he was going to be
by the time he reached New York, Floyd had done his damage.
It is the rare 18 or 19 year old who can come in as the team savior and thrive (e.g. LBJ). At least Pax is not pairing Rose with a SG of similar experience level.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 12:05 AM CST up reply actions
What's your point?
I like Noc actually (am in the minority), I think he’s a decent player on the wrong team right now. But I definately don’t think he should ever play 15-18 minutes straight, unless Tyrus and Noah and Gooden are all hurt at the same time….and yet when Tyrus and Noah aren’t hurt, we see Noc come in the 3rd quarter and play right on through.
did u guys
catch larry on the bench during the t-wolves game(if u could call it a game)
but he didnt seem too pissed.
he was sitting making jokes with lindsey and i think teching noah how to gaurd jefferson(not sure how much that helped)
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
Yeah
He did seem to be in a very good mood joking with Hunter…..
I know Pax has said he’s been very professional about everything, though again Pax is also trying to deal him so it doesn’t make things better to say “he’s been an ass”….
Last time he played on this court
Mike Miller separated his shoulder.
If only was possible to separate the Bulls from his contract.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 26, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
He told some of the Bulls players on the court to give Nocioni a hand after
he got a score and a foul laying on the ground. I think Hughes has been pretty professional through this.
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 26, 2009 12:09 PM CST up reply actions
Well
Also allegedly the teammates really like Noc, which is probably why Pax overpaid him so dramatically. You often see Noc and Deng laughing a bit off the court and on.
No excuse for overpaying him by $3-4M/yr, but I guess given where we thought we were, Pax thought it was a luxury to help this team in their champ. run.
Blown assignments don't go unnoticed at theYMCA
Noc’s teammates have to know about his major deficiencies.
The bad news: Noc’s teammates have some of the exact same deficiencies.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 26, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
Noc's money isn't the problem
The problem is they gave him a 5yr deal, he should’ve got a 3yr $20-23mil deal
That's
1 in the same….
The money’s the problem given the length of the contract. Had we given him a 5 year $30M contract we’d be very happy.
No, really, it's the years, especially in light of the 2010 class
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
It's both
If Noc was declining at $4-5M the rest of the next 3 years, likely wouldn’t be a problem and he’d be more tradable…
not really
he’s bad.
if he was expiring in 2010, we wouldn’t even think about trading him.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I actually don't think Larry is too much of an off-court cancer
as much as he is when he plays.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 26, 2009 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
I agree it's his play on the court and his shot selection that have made him a journey man.
He has talent and he seems to be a fairly smart guy but it’s just a matter of basketball IQ. It’s poor.
As far as Nocioni he reminds me of this greek guy at my gym with a funny accent who shoots fade away threes when you don’t need them. Yet people like him because he’s that funny good guy.
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 26, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
It's defintely hurt to watch the Bulls last couple of years
I know we never had that big name big guy roaming the paint, but they were servicable. They knew their role and they did it well. Derrick Rose should lighting up the league even more than he has. If the Bulls had a big guy he could trust in to play solid in the post and get key rebounds, we wouldn’t be in this mess. I’m not on the Fire Del Negro/Paxson bandwagon yet, but I’m defintely running alongside weighing my decision.
"You just don't know understand how frustrating this is"- Kevin Borseth
I really like Sam Smith's proposals
he wrote today on bulls.com tyrus, kirk, noce to GS for ellis, maggette, truriaf and brandon wright. He then said trade noah, gooden and his expiring deal, and first round pick top three protected for Chris Kaman. I would very happy if Paxson could do these deals. Monta ellis is more athletic than gordon and gets his points easier. Turiaf isn’t bad, maggette can score, and brandon wright is a talented hybrid that is left handed. I AM VERY CLOSE TO GIVING UP ON TYRUS, AND MONTA ELLIS ALONE IS MORE VALUABLE THAN ANY THING WE HAVE BESIDES ROSE.
If we can sign and trade Gordon for somebody,
I guess … but we already have a SG, and Monta and Rose have the same strengths [cutting to the rim]. I prefer Gordon on this team.
Maggette is a more efficient version of Larry Hughes. Boo. He’s overpaid, too.
I also don’t like trading Noah. I really think Noah’s going to be good next year, and he’s turning it around this year too. Kaman … eh.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Hell yes
For A.I.‘s expiring, but I’m not sure how it would interest the Pistons given that A.I. sells tickets (Even if they lose) and Hughes and Gooden are a Pistons PR nightmare waiting to happen, plus Hughes is on the books 1 more year so it costs them $13.5M more for a trade that won’t really make them better and that will definitely get the ire of those who love A.I. enought to take him as a starter for the all star game again.
I here yah!
But that also makes them a player for 2010. They get 2 solid players that would probably play well for them given there current players. Gooden as a back up too sheed would be nice. LH as a back up to Rip also would be nice. Lets face it Ai is ruining that team. Gooden will expire after this season and as will Sheed, so they can go for booser right there with 20m available. Then in 2010 they can try for one of the big guys with LH and some other junk expiring.
For the Bulls its 2 fold 1. Consolidatation 2 for 1 2. A scorer, a nasty scorer at that. An AI/DR back court would be fun to watch IMO. Atleast something would be fun about these bulls
I understand
the talent and cap argument for the trade from the Pistons perspective. And Larry and Rip could make a nice tandem actually on an established team….but again I htink the public ire would be out thinking virtually Joe D traded Big Shot Billups for Gooden and Larry freaking un-legend Hughes….
I think that’s a nitemare waiting to happen for their fan base.
Actually its 3 fold sorry
AI is 20 mil expiring….. Love that. Re sign BG maybe or maybe sign a sick FA.
Couple moves i'd like
- Jerry West/ Jerry Krause or by some way possible (either through miracles or voodoo) Brian Colangelo
- Benny the Bulls punching The Hair during those “who’s playing the 4 spot lineups”
- Larry Hughes traded for someone that will help the team, not hurt it
(that goes for Noc as well)
- Gooden playing back-up to TT and being cool with it
- Gordon figuring out how to play with Rose
- Thabo – trade him or send him 2 the D-League. Its about time
"Kiss my Converse!" - Sho'nuff
A plan - play off our strengths to get a coach.
1- We, in general are athletic. Use this athleticism to focus on defense. We need to make some trades to facilitate the defensive focus but this should be our top priority.
2- Focusing on defense is particularly important because our offensive strength is in the open court. We need turnovers to get into the open court
3- The GM and the choice of coach MUST be on the same page and have a passion to this defensive commitment.
The choice of coach is critical. I thought the 76ers played excellent defense last year with mediocre players. Same with the Wizards. I particularly liked the way the 76ers played a controlled fast paced game. Maurice Cheeks and Eddie Jordon should be ruled out in the coach search.
agreed
they should be ruled out.
Though I think you meant the opposite of that.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 26, 2009 6:45 PM CST up reply actions
I don't really see any coach out there that's going to be really good for this team
It’s more or less just which retread can get the most out of this roster. The rare coach that is no-nonsense and demands accountability while still taking the time to further a player’s career is just too hard to attain these days.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 26, 2009 7:03 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
Management needs to get a better coach, but much of our problems stem from poor mangement, not poor coaching. Good coaching would be an improvement, but good management is what’s needed to fix bad management problems.
But, hey, the players aren't any good so why bother with change at the top?
It’s like changing the wheels of a broken down 1989 Civic every 3 years, while every other malfunctioning part stays the same.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 26, 2009 7:09 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly.
It’s basic business stuff, really. Pax is failing. It’s more than apparent that he isn’t very good at acquiring players that are good at basketball, but sadly he won’t ever fire himself so JR needs to come to his senses for this “organization” to ever have any sort of real management. But the question is, can any GM succeed to great lengths under JR?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
I agree
Everything starts from the top. You can have great employees but if you have a dumb ceo, you’re company is going no where.
we dont know who the real problem is, JR or Pax. But that guy really has to go if we want to win. Its been years and we dont see any clear plan/direction. If we are rebuilding why not give the young guys tons of minutes just like the celts a few years ago. This will either develop them and stay with us, or atleast increase their trade value and wait for a star that will ask for a trade. Giving gray minutes is useless. He has very little potential, and will never have any trade value.
And get more out of the ones it has
People in the NBA always say it’s easier to fire the coach than the players, but they often miss the fact that players sniff out an aimless situation just as well as anyone else.
Even good students tend to fuck about in classes with crappy teachers, or even worse, a substitute.
Ha, that's definitely true
And if you’re getting guaranteed money, and in many players’ case no one has a high opinion of you in the first place, who gives a fuck?
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 26, 2009 9:48 PM CST up reply actions
VDN and Pax
are both role players that relied on jumpshots. they were not known for their defense, they are not athletic. They know their role and they work hard. Maybe that’s why noce and gray gets tons of minutes.
The best available coach I can think of right now is JVG. He never won a championship but he comands respect and seems to be a pretty good defensive coach. Maybe he can get us to respectability again and wait for someone better or develop ang ast coach that will give us a ring.
Never been a fan of Eddie Jordan but he made the wiz competitive even w/ injuries until this season. Avery is like skiles part 2 so I doubt if players would want that. I like hubie brown but I dont think he wants to coach again.
JVG ixnay
JVG is an “adapt to me coach”, which probably isn’t a good fit for this roster….and half court wizard but not for transition emphasis. So, please, let JVG coach another team with a big lumbering front line…
I admire Eddie Jordan, who seemed to mostly outsmart Skiles going head to head. And somehow managed a team of odd pieces including Arenas and Larry H. and other questionables. His downfall was probably the injuries…
I wouldn’t give him the job outright, but he’d be on the “must interview” list. This is actually a time with a number of interesting coaches who have some experience sitting in the waiting room for a new job.
Did anyone notice that Jerry Reinsdorf is in town?
He’ll be on Monsters in the Morning. If anyone watches that. Hope he fires Paxson.
I seriously doubt he fires Pax and then goes on the Morning show on the radio
Looks like a vote of confidence to me
FUCK THE CLOWN. Man I wanna blow the shit out of VDN,
if I ever see him I wanna strangle him and let him turn violet, and then his hair turns gray instantly. I just wanna kill him. Fire him already, fuck it, fuck Jerry Boy, fuck PaxShit.
when are we going to add a 7th championship?
by broseleay301 on Jan 26, 2009 11:40 PM CST reply actions
When did "Bobby Knight" start being spelled "VDN"? ;)
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 12:01 AM CST up reply actions
no drunk-posting.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 27, 2009 9:56 AM CST up reply actions
Can you take your bromance somewhere else?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 27, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
I feel like tomorrow is going to be a big day for trade rumors.....
this is the calm before the storm. I don’t know anything I just think something is going to get done.
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 27, 2009 1:02 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
rec for 1AM "calm before the storm" posting
That’s a good time to get that feeling. :)
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 27, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
Not sure I see it that way
I don’t see how the disagreement over D’antoni is any kind of no-confidence vote in Pax. Installing a coach your GM doesn’t want is one thing, but bumbling getting the coach he*does* want because said coach throws a hissyfit about being asked about to coach defense is another.
I think VDN was a creative gamble that was also cheap—they weren’t going anywhere this year anyway w/ LeBron on the rise, the Celtics ascendant, Orlando looking formidable, and Philly seemingly on the rise w/ a great offseason pickup. So get an inexpensive coach who’ll soothe this fragile bunch while they recover from years of Skiles’ beat-downs, give playing time to the youngins to see what they can do, and re-assess next offseason when they know what Gordon wants to do and if the Rose-Gordon-Hinrich backcourt can coexist (and if Noah-Tyrus is worth keeping).
I do wish the frontine was less pathetic and the team’s general play was more inspired—I can accept when a team lacks height, strength, & overall talent. stuff you’re born with or “drafted luckily” with. But things like a lack of hustle & and on-court communication are inexcusable.
Not sure if you're talking about the original post
but I didn’t mean to say the disagreement over D’Antoni was particularly a no-confidence vote. Rather, it probably didn’t inspire much confidence.
The bit that followed it up, where Collins seemed to pop into the picture and be talking directly to Reinsdorf, is what looked like a no-confidence vote to me. I mean, even if Pax and Collins are close, which I think they are, or were, I’d be pretty leery of that if I were Pax. It just creates a lot of potential for bad things.
But D'Antoni
D’Antoni helps when it comes to landing prize FA’s a lot of players want to play for him, and that could give the Bulls and advantage, but we can only dream
None of these coaching situations and who should get fired mean jack squat because right not the Bulls are losing because they are a poorly constructed team. We’ve been expecting a trade ever since the Bulls picked Rose in the summer. Everyone knew the Bulls had too many guards and not enough competent big men. What’s going on Pax? You’ve had 7 months. Don’t tell me you can’t find a good deal for a guy like Larry Hughes or Hinrich or Gordon.
"When I die I hope they don't cremate me 'cuz I'll burn forever."-Harry Caray
Well, maybe JR will make it happen :
(not that I necessarily want Pax to get axed)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/paul_forrester/01/26/conley.notes/1.html
<We’d say Bulls GM John Paxson may have paved his way out of a job when he didn’t pull off some sort of deal last summer to add a veteran presence. Rolling with the same core players who all but quit on Scott Skiles last year, Paxson appears to be watching yet another coach get submarined by a group that doesn’t respect the man calling the shots. Vinny Del Negro’s ouster may be the easy solution, but rumors are swirling that Paxson could join his coach on the unemployment line. All thanks to a roster in desperate need of a purging.>
The Game chose him !
I wonder if that why JR is in town this week?
It’s just time to move on. I like Paxson but it’s just sad how his players have turned out.
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 27, 2009 9:56 AM CST up reply actions
Soxfest is this weekend
My fingers are crossed though. Do it Jerry!
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 27, 2009 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
Great Article Sports2
The coaching search over the summer was one of the strangest chapters in Bulls history. I have no doubt that Reinsdorf sabotaged the D’antoni hiring in some way and I don’t blame him for taking the Knicks job at all. (Speaking of Reinsdorf, we all know he’s more of a baseball fan than a basketball fan so I wish he’d sell the Bulls and spend his time focusing on the White Sox). I have no words to describe the Doug Collins situation other than “what?!” Then finally, they settle on a coach who had the same amount of NBA coaching experience as my alcoholic neighbor.
The whole scenario made me realize that the Bulls are NOT being run as a professional franchise right now. It’s clear to me that the problem with the team lies more with the organization than with the players (although most of these players need to go). I think it’s time for the unholy trinity of Reinsdorf, Paxson, and VDN to go.
Your alcoholic neighbor
knows Gray is not a starting NBA player, BG should play in the 4th for his offense and TT for his defense.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 27, 2009 10:09 PM CST up reply actions
i agree with you on BG...
but Tyrus isn’t ALWAYS effective on D still and sometimes he is still running around like an idiot. I think with some more minutes he will become that guy that we need in there for his D, but he isn’t like a lock down defender yet.
Vinny’s substitutions still get on my nerves though.
by i_like_turtles on Jan 27, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions
Last play of the game, eh? I think we need Aaron Gray in there for his rebounding. Let's ignore Noah and Tyrus's double-doubles.
[gray misses putback]
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
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