If the rumours are true (crazy guy thinks the Suns will trade Amare)
by bull83 on Jan 21, 2009 9:17 AM CST
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PrintWe've been discussing all sort of trades. Most of them include Hughes, Nocioni and Gooden, and we end up saying that we can only dream about getting some expiring contracts for the 2010 free agency race. But I'm a ambitious guy. I think big. And by big, I want to say trade for a superstar. My target: Amare Stoudemire.
Right now, everyone is saying: Bull83, you're crazy. Yes, I might be. But there's some news that could indicate the contrary. We all read or heard about Stoudemire being frustrated. Since Shaq was traded to the Suns, he stole the label of "go to guy” from Amare. Stoudemire performances started to decline a litle bit, especially on the defensive end, and now, according to the Arizona Republic, it's the Suns who are frustrated.
Amaré Stoudemire scored three points Monday at Boston. It was his career's worst scoring game in which he played at least 30 minutes. It also was his most precipitous game-to-game dropoff, after scoring 31 on Sunday.
The frustrations with Stoudemire are not solely about offense, although Sunday's 30-point game was only his third of the season. He had 21 30-point games last season under Mike D'Antoni, whose Knicks host the Suns today, and 13 of the 21 came after Shaquille O'Neal was acquired in February.
There are ongoing issues with Stoudemire's lapses on defense and rebounding. His mistakes on rotations and weak-side help can't be numerated, except that they are part of how the Suns are giving up more points than any potential playoff team. Since Thanksgiving, the Suns have held three opponents in the 90s.
This doesn't mean that they want or will trade Stoudemire, but why not try to land him if the rumours are true. So I came up with a package that might appeal the Suns. And if Vinny pull some strings and Pax uses his influence with Kerr, this might work.
What I propose is simple:
Bulls send: Tyrus, Gooden and Nocioni
Suns send: Stoudemire and Amundson
Bulls perspective
First and most important: we get that frontcourt help that we need on Stoudemire. Amundson is there only to make number, despite the fact that we could take some minutes when some of our guys need a rest. Plus: Amundson contract expires next year, wich means more money to sign BG. Besides, we send out a bad contract (Noc), a expiring contract (Gooden) and a good prospect (Tyrus).
Suns perspective:
If it's true that they are frustrated with Stoudemire, and if they were willing to give the guy that once they thought that could be their franchise player, they would like to receive something good in return. We don't have that much to offer, but I think this could work for three motives:
1 - They could work with TT and try to transform him on the new Amare
2 - They could use the help from Noc and the SF position, since they their only good guy is Grant Hill and Hill's contract expires this year.
3 - They could use Gooden's money to pursue someone this year or re-sign someone
Bulls
Rose/Hinrich
Gordon/Hinrich/Thabo
Deng/B. Simmons
Stoudemire/Amundson
Noah/Gray
(In 2010, we could try to sign Wade or Joe Johnson)
Suns
Nash/Barbosa
Richardson/Barbosa
Hill/Noc
Tyrus/R. Lopez
Shaq/Robin Lopez
p.s. I included Bobby Simmons on the rotation, because I hope that Pax makes the Hughes trade with the Nets
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"frustrated" does not equal "stupid"
Why would the Suns even consider this? I would think that the Bulls would have to also send a 1st rounder, in addition, maybe someone like a Thabo.
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
Frustration leads to a lot of things
What team want’s a player frustrated on their roster? If they can’t make him play better, then try to get something in return while they can and before his value drops a litle bit. Remeber Gasol trade? That was stupid. We had a lot more to offer than the Lakers. But Memphis choose to make a trade with the Lakers.
Memphis chose to make a salary dump on the Lakers, it had nothing to do with Gasol
Teams do deal frustrated players just to get them out of town, but that’s a terrible example
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Maybe
You’re trade plus the next two year #1 picks…..would work from the Suns perspective…..
They then’ll likely sell those #1 picks and retain their garbage….
I doubt a deal gets done for Amare, but if it did, Suns would probably want Deng over Noc
This would have to be done in conjunction w/ the Hughes deal to shed salary plus sending the Suns a couple first rounders.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Actually...
Right now, everyone is saying: Bull83, you’re crazy
Not until I read the actual trade proposal. Try something like this, to start.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Look, I thought about a package that didn't kill us too much
Noah is our only Center. Gooden is awfull and so is Gray. So, that’s why I didn’t included Noah. If they would ask for Noah, my answer would be: thank you very much for your time, but you can keep Stoudemire.
If you can get a Star player, take him and worry about the rest of the team later
They can have anyone but Rose
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
I agree
completely they can have anyone but Rose and we can worry about rest later (2010). Rose and Stoudmire is going to be appealing to the 2010 Stars like Wade.
I think they're pretty liberal with the 'positions'
on the All-NBA team.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
Gooden
Why do other teams want our “awfull” players for their all-nba players?
Deng, Thomas and Gooden for Amare and Dragic
works in the trade machine, resign BG and you have 3 legit proven NBA players on your roster. Amare gets to be the man inside, BG shoots and Rose runs the show. We lose a solid player Deng, a potentially great player in TT and an awfull player in Gooden
Because that'd be overkill.
The Bulls don’t have great quality, but they do have good quality, in quantity w/ a lot of potential. Guys that might not be as good as Al Jefferson, Caron Butler or Lamar Odom, but those are typically the types you need to trade for really, really good players.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Personally, I'm not sold on Stoudemire as a true game-changer worth Deng, Thomas, Noah.
However, it makes Rose/Gordon/Hinrich possible, they can keep Thabo and Nocioni (which Paxson probably wants), and if they got lucky w/ drafting a really good wing player (not likely) and Asik actually turned into a really good man-on-man defending C, they’d have a chance. It would be an extremely offensive team, though.
It’d be exciting to do, but I don’t know if I would if I were the Bulls.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Yeah
I wonder if in time we lose on that trade, but adding Stoudemire gives the Bulls the glitzy star praise, draws the fans and helps attract other stars….so I think it’s a win win for teh Bulls even if Tyrus Thomas hits his potential (and really that’s the risk). Deng and Noah will be decent players, good on contenders, but neither have a chance at being a #1 option and Deng ain’t likely a real #2 option (but a damn good #3). Noah could become a glue guy at some point.
Tyrus makes the trade a risk from the Bulls perspective to a degree, but who cares. Amare’ll change this team…..we can likely keep Gordon and BG and find fill in the blank 2’s and eithe ra 4 or 5 (who too might be more apt to come to play with Rose and Stat…….and wow those two together would be awesome.
I think Bosh might be my first choice by a hair (seems less hand-holding and the rest of the 2 are very close—Bosh is the better defender, Stat is the more explosive offensive player).
A Rose-Stat tandem for the next 10 years would really be something as Rose should develop some defensive skills and he and Stat together can run teams wild.
If you believe in the Superstar Theory...
…then the Bulls should do it. They can re-sign Gordon while keeping Hinrich (yay backcourt!), re-sign Gray (yay!) and live with Nocioni for a year. Hopefully, they draft Noc’s replacement this year and Asik can come in 2010 to play a serviceable defending big.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I like the trade
And I think the Luol, Tyrus, Noah package for a star is one of the better ideas I’ve seen on this board. With all three peaking during this recent stretch, it’s as good a time as any to trade them.
A team of...
Nash
Richardson
Deng
Thomas
O’Neal
Supported by
Barbosa
Barnes
Hill
Noah
Would be quite interesting. Would Phoenix do this?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
+ Thabo, Asik, and our 2009/2010 draft picks
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Well... that's why I'd hesitate to do it from the Bulls perspective.
OTOH, a trade like this leaves the Bulls incomplete and still far from a championship. However, because it’d be so bare, it would indicate that Paxson had a plan. At least. I think.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I think if I'm Phoenix, I do this trade.
And you hope you luck into Ty Lawson or Darren Collison in the draft this year. They trade their “superstar”, but I dont see how they’re significantly worse over the next two years, and they would probably be a lot better further down the road.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I gotta comment on College PGs
Ty Lawson is horrible. I was a huge NC fan from 98-08 so I have seen him his whole career. Here are the problems with him…. Hes 5 10 or 5 11 with shoes, he can’t shoot an NBA 3. This year he has given up 30 to the Teauge and 26 to Tyresse Rice. Maybe a 2nd rounder
Darren collison – A solid backup Pg in the NBA next year. Derrick knocked him out of the draft in last years Final 4. Derrick had like 19 9 and 1 TO Collison had 3 and 3 with 5 TOs( thats off memory but i remember it being real ugly and thinking Rose was the 1st pick by far).
Who is the best PG around the 20th pick where Phoenix would draft? Teague if he falls or Patty Mills who lit up Deron and Kidd in the Olympics for Austrialia on St Marys in NCAA. Kalen Lucas out of Mich St.
Trade Amare to Memphis
Would they give up their 09 #1 and players for Amare? Probably.
If you want to deal Amare you could trade him for all sorts of options.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, it's not good.
Especially if Gordon leaves. But if he stays….
But yeah, more “re-tooling” or “consolidating talent” than re-building. The total value is more going out than coming in, for sure, but still….
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Exactly
It wouldn’t be easy to land Stoudemire. But we can’t offer every player, too. In my opinion, we would be the losing team, because we would offer a lot of talent and only get in return a great guy. Sorry, a superstar.
Who guards like Drew Gooden!
OK, that’s not fair, but I’m hesitant to get a big man who can’t defend to pair with our other big men who can’t defend, while trading all our big men who can defend [even if just a little].
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Ya know
Coming into this year Stoudemire was seen as a top 5-10 talent (which he still is). He’s not doing as well in the slow, Porter offense, but the dude’s incredible….and we’d LOVE it if he was on our team.
COmparing him to Gooden is ridiculous. Sure Stat doesn’t focus on D, but he’s far far superior to any offensive player we have, and CAN defend when he tries there…..
He looks like a guy who definitely could use a change of scenery.
Drew Gooden CAN defend too
his brain just short circuits about half the time on that side of the court. Otherwise yes, having Amare would be a terrific problem to have.
Drew
Can defend every 5th game. He has the ability to defend every game, but simply does not, and his lack of D is even worse than Amare’s…..
Plus
A veteran or two for the minimum….
Look what Boston’s done around the big 3. Well I would think our big 2 would be better than their big 3, and be something we can build around.
Hinrich is still tradeable, Gooden expires. BG might stay or might not.
Stat is awesome….just an awesome player (of course he ain’t leaving Phx).
Stoudemire is nowhere near the caliber of Garnett. Not even close. And never will be.
And Rose isn’t as good as Pierce yet. Again, not even close. But there’s a chance. And Allen’s determination on the defensive end has taken the Gordon/Allen comparisons a little out of bounds.
What you hope, however, is that Rose surpasses Pierce and Stoudemire gets closer to Garnett. Then you hope that Hinrich+Gordon+Nocioni+Asik+Thabo+draft pick is better than Rondo+Perkins+Powe+Posey, etc. Or at least close to it, since that was a great team last year.
Or, that you rid Nocioni, don’t re-sign Gordon, and hope to lure another 2010 FA like Wade.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Stoudemire
Is a far more skilled offensive player than anyone on the Celtics…..
I know he doesn’t have the KG full package, but with a running and gunning PG with the emerging killer instinct, Stat would be awesome.
I wasn’t saying keep BG. I think he’s a nice pick, but I’m certainly not going to say he’s Ray Allen (Ray’s been one of my fave players for years since his Bucks days, just a real class act at least in the class acts I’ve seen).
There likely won’t be another KG-Duncan in this next run
Whoops,
I meant there won’t be another KG-Duncan who’s better debate in the league for Stat-Bosh….it’s a LBJ-Wade-Paul-Howard thing for a while….
awesome is an entertainment word...
and no, he’s not far-more skilled offensively than anyone on the Celtics. that’s an ambiguous statement that even if it meant anything would still be wrong
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Agree
to disagree. Stat is Stat because of his offensive abilities….he could be absolutely a fantastic MVP if he cared to learn D.
Hmmmm
The thing is too, you can take Deng out and replace him with Noce or Hinrich and it still works.
I think the Suns might like Kirk as Nash eventually will retire and they need someone coming through
Yeah
and I do believe Kirk will blow up a bit in the stat columns when he’s actually paired with some sort of inside presence. He’s a decent assist guy, i don’t think he’ll ever be Nashian or Paul like there, but I think he could get in the 8 apg or that range on a team that has more than jump shooters on the perimeter and little offense in the 4-5 spots (And the few offense we have at the 4 or 5 are jump shooters at the perimeter).
He won’t be Nash, but he won’t be as far off because of his defense to a Suns team, should they get him.
Of course I believe
If there is a possibility, we should try to get one. If Stoudemire is frustrated and the Suns are frustrated, Pax should call Kerr and say: look man, we need a big man and you have one that is frustrated. What would you want to trade him?
As simples as that. Now, the pieces that we use is another story. I could send Thabo anytime, like Norm VanBeer suggested and even the next two year #1 picks, like majoyenrac said. That’s fine to me. Having Noc for one more year, NO. If he stays, Vinny will always play him.
fixed the title.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 10:06 AM CST reply actions
Thank you Matt for changing the title again
I didn’t said the Suns will trade him, as you suggest. My point is try to work a trade. Yeah, but you guys don’t think big. Yeah, let’s keep every player that we have now and try to get something going. And then, by 2010, when we miss some big free agents, don’t start whining: oh, Bosh went to Detroit, Wade re-sign with Miami, Joe Johnson stayed in Atlanta… Pax is this, Pax is that… blá, blá, blá…
Call me crazy, insane, retarded as you want. But I’m ambitious. I want to win. And with this players, we won’t win. Rose needs help and let me tell you one thing: very few of the players from our roster are going to help him win a ring.
it was more your fault for not having a better title to begin with
I have to do it alot, I don’t like seeing vague titles like ‘trade idea’.
I’m just funning with the ‘crazy’ part.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
Have you ever wonder that some people might not have the same sense of humor?
Besides, if I thought It would be a crazy idea try to land Stoudemire, after reading this news, I would never post this idea. But the blog is yours. If I want to keep talking about the Bulls with the other fans, I have to accept it.
also, 'ambitious'
would be dealing good players for Amare.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
Instead of doing that, make a proposal, then
If I choose this one, it’s because I thought it could be a nice idea. But I don’t mind losing Deng, Noah, TT or even BG. I just tried to find a package that won’t kill us now.
I think it's a too nice, and therefore unrealistic, idea
thus the ‘crazy’ comment, which you invited on yourself. And here I thought that indicated you were the self-deprecating type.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
Whoa...harsh move.
I actually like the discussion this thread is generating. This isn’t the worst proposal anyone here has seen by any means.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
The Suns remind me of the tail end of the Jail Blazers era
I think they’ll have another trade soon, because they’re desperately doing anything to contend. What I don’t understand is that Kerr was on the Blazers during that time and he knows it won’t work. They’re going to end up giving up anther important player for nothing.
I'm a Blazers fan and If you ban me from your blog, I'll sue you!
Please don't feed the trolls.
God forgives, tominhawaii doesn't.
Well to be fair he doesn't have Ruben Patterson, Darius Miles, or bad Sheed
Or a stoned Mighty Mouse. Nash, Shaq, Hill, and J-Rich are all quality guys. And he had to do something. They were on the same W/L trajectory with Marion and D’Antoni. No one would care because they’d still be the SSOL offense. Kerr knows he only has a few years before Nash finally has to step away, might as well go for broke, and really this team should be so much better if Amare wasn’t content with the player he currently is.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 21, 2009 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
Horrible post, although it is possible the Suns would trade Amare.
Listen the NBA isn’t a vacuum featuring just Superstar Team X and the Bulls. Just like the Bosh post it makes no sense for the other team. If these players became available, other teams would submit proposals far more appealing than anything the Bulls can put together.
Why are the Suns dealing Amare for Drew Gooden, because they’re mad at him? Amare could be sentenced to a few years in prison tomorrow and they wouldn’t trade him for Drew Gooden. Tyrus upside cancels out Noc’s contract making those two not worth much in the deal.
Phoenix doesn’t even pick up the phone unless the Bulls include Rose, so it would never happen. Although Tyger was on a better track with Deng, Noah, TT. That still isn’t enough though. The Suns don’t need old men Shaq, Hill, Nash combined with the Bulls young, underdeveloped, inconsistent talent. It just doesn’t add up.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 21, 2009 12:10 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, Chuck Swirsky doesn't understands shit about NBA
Since HE was the one that suggested that perhaps the Raptors should trade Bosh, and NOT ME. I just pointed that out, like Sam Smith did on his column. Besides, it WAS SMITH who talked about a package including Thabo Sefolosha, Andres Nocioni, Joakim Noah and Kirk Hirrich. Again, NOT ME. But since you’re such a smartass, maybe you decided to write before you take a deep breath and think a little bit before ripping on me.
I admit the deal may be awful. But there are some things that GM talk and make that we don’t understand. Only who’s inside knows what they are thinking. Can you tell me what’s Pax plan? We know that he wants to trade Hughes. But after that. Does he have a 2010 plan or a 2009 plan? We only talk about what the media give us. We speculate, nothing more.
Yeah announcers make deals all the time.
I remember when Chick Hearn pulled off the Vlade/Kobe deal. Man that Chick was really on top of things.
From my professional experience
I can assure you one thing: there’s no smoke without fire. And when one reporter talks about something, it’s because he heard something. Everything happens for a reason. They don’t write stories that they know aren’t true
They know Bosh is pissed about losing
and that Amare doesnt look to happy, that is it. There maybe some kind of machinations behind putting out these ideas, but these arent “News Stories” theyre a cross between OpEd and Gossip.
I know, I was just saying that that was just a comment that Swirsky made
I read the same as you. No story here. I just post it here so we could analyze and comment if there’s any possibility of that to happen. If those stories make or not make any sense. That’s what we do: analyze and comment. Those who think that might be a slim possibility to get Bosh or Amare, are free to propose a trade. Simple as that. I and (maybe) neither one of us here know’s what is going to happen.
Wait Chuck Swirsky, the announcer, suggested they may trade Bosh
so now we should post trades of Gooden for Bosh?
Can you answer this question? If you were the Raptors, would you trade Bosh for what Gooden and Tyrus. Honestly? Would you even think about it.
I’m sure on some Portland board, they are suggesting trading Rudy Fernandez and Travis Outlaw for Derrick Rose? Would you take that deal?
The point isn’t whether these players are tradeable. If you read my heading, I said as much that they could be traded. The issue is with the crap you offer them. No one wants to trade superstars for borderline starters and draft busts. It makes no sense. Every team in the league could off a better package than what you posted. EVERY team.
So speculate away, but at least do so realistically.
No, but we could find something appealing
Because, apparently, we (Bulls fans) are the only ones that hat players like Noc. When we talked about trading for O’Neil, rumorpress.net had a story about that. And Tech N9ne wrote that the Raptors are very interested in Noc.
Wait, but Noc is bad. How can they be interested in a bad player? They’re so dumb… :s
It’s not their problem that the Bulls can’t develop players. Maybe they could get some interesting performances from Noc, TT, Noah and Thabo. Almost everyone says that Tyrus could be really good on another team. So, maybe some of this players just need to go somewhere else to become good players. At least, reasonable players.
Again
Noc ain’t bad…..he’s expensive and a luxury, but he ain’t bad. He’s also better than any of their real wings (Bargnani upside the exception).
You mean "almost everyone" on Blogabull
Almost everyone in the real world doesn’t care much about Tyrus at all. Certainly not in a trade for Bosh.
There are various levels of interest. Like interest in Noc as in they could unload Kapono for Noc. Not Bosh for a package featuring Noc.
Bargnani, Calderon
they would turn down Bargnani for Tyrus.
Correct me if I'm wrong
I’m not good with statistics. But I believe Basketball-reference.com shows that Tyrus has a better PER than Bargnani.
When does Calderon is better than Hinrich? To mee he isn’t…
PER measures per minute
not total stats. Look at Bargnani’s last month and you’ll see why he has more value than Tyrus.
Is there site that provides situational PER stats?
By month, home/away, etc?
Or is this all just stats you have to tally on your own?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
I tally it on my own.
I call it the common sense tally. Here’s the formula: common sense = Bargnani more valuable than Tyrus.
guys
don’t ask CJBulls about Tyrus. He has his own kids table for that.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
Common sense ...
OR CRAZY SENSE!
Ohhhhhhhh!
[drumroll, cymbol]
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
I totally agree with all the facts you present in this argument
Since Bargnani has had just as many bust-worthy moments, I fail to see how he has more value. Because he hits threes?
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 22, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
Hardly
Tyrus is far more athletic, is not as soft, can do a bit of everything, has D principles, is showing correct form on his shot, is more than a year younger….
I think their value is about the same on a statistical measure, but given the “full package” upside of T2, I think Tyrus has a considerably more value in a package trade…..Neither have a ton of value on a stand alone trade value….
He defeated you with logic!
Oh noes!
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
No he just thinks TT is in college.
When you cant even get minutes on a team that needs bigs and defense, then you probably aren’t going very far in those categories.
Calderon is as good as Hinrich, I guess I'd give an edge to Calderon.
I don’t see your point though?
Why does Toronto not having talent mean they should make a horrible, horrible deal. You don’t think other teams would offer more than TT, Gooden and Noc for Chris Bosh!
No one mentioned Gooden
First package mentioned for Bosh by Smith
WAS SMITH who talked about a package including Thabo Sefolosha, Andres Nocioni, Joakim Noah and Kirk Hirrich
Second package mentioned by me, as a example of some players that could be usefull to Toronto.
Maybe they could get some interesting performances from Noc, TT, Noah and Thabo
Now, I agree some teams have more to offer. Atlanta, for instance. I just wanted to say that our players have some – not much, but some – value for other teams. And any of them would be a upgrade to Toronto (forget Bosh for a moment and Calderon too, since probably he has the same value of Hinrich)
As for TT and Bargnani, If you want to go that way, I would like to see what TT is capable to do with Bargnani playing time. Did they had the same playing time last month?
Jan numbers
Bargnani 21/7 in 38 minutes
TT 10/4 in 29 minutes
TT must be waiting to explode in those last 9 minutes he’s missing out on.
So a team should trade their star play for 4 players on a bad basketball team. How does that make them better? Think logically about this.
Where did you get those stats?
You can’t call Toronto a good team. Their record show how bad they are this year. People already started to compare with th Bulls. But anyway…
Say the players you are talking about are, let’s see: Gordon (great shooter – forget the bird rights), Noc (they need a SF), Tyrus (a PF with potential) and Noah (great prospect). Is this so bad? Anyone of them would start on Toronto. And they could be a playoff team to me. Don’t you think? If we are so bad, we shouldn’t be fighting to get to the playoffs.
You just look at the game logs
It’s on basically any site.
You can’t trade Gordon to Toronto. He would decline and then couldn’t re-sign there.
Tyrus was better in November and December, and made one less game in November
So, don’t go that way.
Hence, why I said
“Look at Bargnani’s last month and you’ll see why he has more value than Tyrus.”
The feeling is the light has gone on for Bargnani.
There might not even be a lightbulb in Tyrus’ head
You're funny
You use January as a example for Bargnani, but forget every other months. Yeah, let’s keep evaluating a player for what he does on one certain month and forget the others
I pulled the last month
because he’s been great the last month. And since then I’ve read many articles about how Toronto wanted to move Bargnani but now are holding onto him.
I didn't heard any about the Bulls wanting to move Tyrus as well
Unless you believe in KC Johnson. And story came out on the offseason, I think. Not now…
What's your point?
I’m just saying Bargnani has more value than Tyrus. There is little to dispute on that fact IMO.
For you he has
For me he doesn’t. The stats show it. You can say what you want, use this mouth, that mouth or the other mouth. The truth is, with the same minutes, Tyrus can be more effective.
I guess we will
I do agree that Tyrus does a lot of shit, though. But that’s coaches fault for not explaining what he needs to do
Playoff team?
Because they got Noc Gordon and Tyrus. So how are all these Bulls players better than Toronto. Then you add them. Two non-playoff teams and they combine into suddenly one playoff team. How?
Non-playoff teams?
So, I guess you don’t believe the Bulls have a shot…
You say that Parker, Moon and Bargnani are better than Gordon – I was clear when I said to forget the Bird rights, just mentioning a package – Noc and Tyrus. Make a pool, then. You’ll be surprise.
I don't see how removing BOSH
and placing Gordon and Noc on the team makes them better. Considering Gordon can’t get his own team into the playoffs. I find that to be virtually inarguable.
Placing Gordon, Noc, Tyrus and Noah. Don't forget that
One question: who got the Bulls into the playoffs the last time? Ben Wallace? PJ Brown?
Stop living in the past
Right now!! The team sucks now. And those players are’t keeping the ship afloat by themselves. They’ve been moderately good to bad players for this team all season.
And Toronto don't suck?
Their record is worst than ours for God sackes.
Bosh is the only thing that they have better than us. The other players suck or are similar to what we have (Calderon = Hinrich)
So you admit it they have one thing better
so why give that up!
Because they can lose him for nothing in 2010
Simple as that. If there’s any indication that he’s not going to re-sign, they need to minimize the damages.
or they can get better players from other teams
rather than take the bulls’ scraps
Bulls have
a lot of talent, but I think the chemistry’s been a huge factor this year and last year…..and the mix of players (too many freaking guards, it’s ridiculous, guards jack up shots, that is what guards are supposed to do, you can’t have 5 quality guards—yes people HUGHES is a decent commodity guard a 6th or 7th man at worst in this league on most teams—except ours because we just have so many freaking guards)….
I'd rather have Bosh
If we have to break the bank and send Tyrus and Noah out then I’d want Bosh.
Amare won’t play defense. He’s now been groomed in systems to avoid playing it.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
Maybe
But then we don’t give them everything.
Hinrich
Gordon/Thabo
Deng
Bosh
Noah
Would be great, if we worked out something using Rose, Hughes, crap on the other end. Tyrus would stay on the Bulls too. Kirk’s a quality NBA starter, just not Rose….but Bosh totally fits our need….that changes the game a bit though.
I'm not sold (and didn't try the trade machine)
But yeah….I might before I see who needs to be involved….
Well there you go then.
Rose and Hughes for Bosh. I could see Toronto giving strong consideration there. They might want to include TT as well to make it happen.
Rose for Bosh? Hell no.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Why not? Bosh is already a near MVP caliber player and is still young
While the potential of Rose is great, it’s still just potential with no promise of paying off. For the right player with realized and potential value, it’d be silly to pass him up in order take the gamble on mostly potential.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Rose is only 20
and he’s performing at a pretty spectacular level given his relative inexperience in the league and the situation he’s in with this constantly-gunning, barely-passing, disastrous, melting-pot of a roster. He’s too young and has too much unbelievable potential to straight-up trade him for anyone other than LeBron, CP3, or (possibly) Howard. Not to mention the fact that his attitude towards winning is as good as it gets, and it’s clear he’s a team player with an undeniable hunger to be a superstar, title-winning PG in this league. I would be willing to bet that most league executives/insiders/scouts/whatevers – if they had to pick one guy to build a team around – would lean towards Rose moreso than Bosh.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Bosh is only 24 and is in that second tier right behind the guys you mentioned
Rose’s future is bright but even reaching that second tier will require a lot of hard work and luck (regarding injuries and coaching).
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
This discussion happened earlier, BABers are nuts
There were some debating whether or not they would trade Rose for Chris Paul or Dwight Howard. Let them be crazy.
I wouldn't limit it to BAB'ers, just sports homerism in general
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
well Paul and Howard are a level above Bosh
I think it’s crazy to not make a deal for the first two. But I would also not do Rose for Bosh.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
Well you run this blog, I expect that homerism
I agree there is a complete other level. That’s why I posted about Paul separately.
I'm glad we have you around to keep us all grounded
because this era NEEDS to be over! NEEDS TO!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:46 PM CST up reply actions
Keep making pointless comments
Tyrus has done nothing. Stop being bitter about it.
Tyrus has his own ERA
an entire chapter in Bulls history devoted to Tyrus Thomas, haven’t you heard!
It's not homerism
It’s, as YOU would say, common sense. Duh.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Explain how
Bosh is better than Rose now. How much better can Rose get than Bosh realistically? Bosh is a top 10, maybe top 5 player. How much better can you get than that.
Rose
Can definately get on that level…..
I am leaning more towards agreeing with you here though CJ, especially given that for the most part PF’s/C’s (and their D) lead to championships—sans MJ era….
Bosh is a FANTASTIC player, and I really don’t think he’s nearly as far of the CP3’s and Howards as is implied above—hell Bosh on a good team last summer was far more skilled on O and D than Howard was…..but I’m not about to say I’d take Bosh over Dwight Howard……given Howard’s athleticism, age and overall pure awesomeness.
Exactly
Bosh is only 24 going on 25 and is MVP worthy. You make that trade…..esp when Bosh is at a more premium position AND you have a very credible PG already on your team…..
It’s just easier to get guards than it is the big guys, and there are few big guys as awesome and under the radar though a superstar to those who watch as Chris Bosh.
MVP worthy?
you realize they only give out one a year, right?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:46 PM CST up reply actions
The Hornets win 20 games max with out Chris Paul
Do the Heat win 15 with out Wade? The Magic win 25 with out Superman?
Well
If the Magic didn’t have the wings and just had D. Howard, they wouldn’t win more than the 32-33 the Raptors would win.
If the Hornets didn’t have Paul, they’d likely be a Bulls type squad…..actually more the oppo-Bulls because they have a very good PF and a solid C and wouldn’t have the guards. I bet they’d win more than us.
Swap Bosh for West, and the Hornets would be much better in my opinion (nohting on West, who’s really good, but he ain’t Bosh). Swap Bosh with the Magic and who knows….they probably wouldn’t quite be the same because Bosh and Lewis would be redundancies, Bosh isn’t an ideal 5, and Lewis and Turk are already redunancies….but the Magic would be in the playoffs.
The Heat have no guards though at all that are ready without Wade, so there’s no chance Bosh could do anything there without Wade.
PG isn't a premium position these days?
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Not more premium than a big
especially when the team has several guards and no bigs.
by CJ Bulls on Jan 21, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Not as premium as a big.
We’ve tried the build the guard strength game and all it has done is made us realize how badly we need inside strength.
Bosh and the PF are more a premium in this league than a PG, especially when we just so happen to feature 2 starting caliber PG’s, one of which is going to be a superstar, and the other is merely a good PG….
Bosh is a top 5-10 talent in this league.
Building around Rose
is an entirely different animal than building around guards like Kirk Hinrich and Ben Gordon. Come on now.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Would you consider trading Rose for Amare?
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 22, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
You aren't
Building around Kirk and Deng (and Gordon), I was referring to building around CHRIS BOSH, and you can do that rather easily if you kept at least 2 of the Kirk, Deng, Hinrich….
Bosh is a more premium in this league at PF than a guard. Rarely do any really good PF’s/C’s ever get traded…..last one (Pau Gasol) transformed his new team into a title contender…..one before that Shaq, transformed the Heat…..discounting rookie trades of course….
Two great guards and offensively limited big men
who can play defense and rebound are championship worthy .
In Rose We Trust
by Granny Waiters on Jan 22, 2009 11:04 PM CST up reply actions
Tell me Granny,
did Pistons ever play a 3 guard lineup way back then?
;=)
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
About 10 minutes or so a game.
(If you consider AD a forward and not a guard, since he mostly posted up.)
In Rose We Trust
by Granny Waiters on Jan 23, 2009 6:00 PM CST up reply actions
Trade Rose for Bosh,
the Bulls still stink, and Bosh leaves as a free agent in 2010. Meanwhile, Toronto has Rose and cap space to sign a premier free agent in 2010.
In Rose We Trust
by Granny Waiters on Jan 22, 2009 10:59 PM CST up reply actions
If you did this
you’d need to let Gordon walk and go all in for Wade & keeping Bosh in 2010 to get a championship.
No chance
Rose is untouchable.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
That came off as mean,
didn’t mean it that way. Just that for the right player the Bulls would make a deal. Bosh is one of those players. So are Lebron, Howard, Paul etc.
I’m not positive about Stoudemire. His attitude would not seem to help the culture here. Not sure about Kobe either.
There's no way in hell Pax trades Rose for Bosh.
Absolutely no chance. I think you’re the crazy one if you think he’d do that.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Really? Under what logic?
Wait, should we have the player who could be great, or the player who is ALREADY great. I can’t decide. So difficult to figure out.
How much better can Rose get than Bosh to offset the likely odds he will only be as good or worse.
enough better?
he’s ours, he’s cheap. Don’t act so incredulous over it.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
He's only cheap for like 3 more years
and then you’ll be paying him for 3 more years on the back end.
Plus, you’re unloading Hughes in the deal so you’re saving money there.
I'm not factoring in an actual trade
just swapping Rose for Bosh in fantasy land.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:46 PM CST up reply actions
But this isn't fantasy land.
So basing your argument on fantasy doesn’t help.
I can't believe I'm arguing on the same side as CJ Bulls and majoyenrac, but...
I guess it comes down to where you see Rose’s most likely ceiling. Maybe I’m weighing in his recent performance too heavily, but I don’t see him as likely breaking through to dominant, annual MVP candidate level. I would put him in that second level where Bosh already is. Given that, I don’t see it as unreasonable to give up potential for actual.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
What the hell
is that supposed to mean.
I know I tend to say Noc ain’t nearly as bad as you guys want to say he is, he ain’t….his CONTRACT is awful…..
And Hughes has talent.
Don’t act like I don’t know anything about this freaking league.
I do think Rose can be annual MVP candidate, btu I also think Bosh is that on the right team…..and I think given what we have Bosh is more a better fit for us and we can likely resign and keep him for another 7.5 years (1.5 after the trade and a 6 year deal after that) and he’ll leave us at what 33, and that’s if after our time as a real contender we don’t trade him at 31-32….
Chill, it's just pretty common that I don't agree with you on a lot of things
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Alright
Sorry, I get touchy especially when called out unprovoked….
I think we agree more than you’d think, that’s all. I guess I like to defend a bit too much, but you’re main points are very well thought out.
Rose is from Chicago which will sell tickets. Trading Rose would piss off
a lot of fans.
I understand JR values filling the United Center seats with paying customers quite highly. Also, remember, this is the guy who said more fans need to show up to White Sox games for him to justify a higher payroll.
In Rose We Trust
by Granny Waiters on Jan 22, 2009 11:08 PM CST up reply actions
I'm sure
If we got a soon to be 3 time all star, superstar talent who is 25 and fits a HUGE GAPING need, were able to keep our emerging role player C (Noah), and had Hinrich and Deng and decide what to do with Gordon…..
I think the fans will not only stay, but will come back.
Bulls
Also draw very well in the league. White Sox tend to be about 60% full….Bulls are probably closer to 95% (and when not full the tickets are full).
If we’re winning, we sell out quickly….
You also need to consider
Bosh’s upcoming free agency. Age, contract status, production – they all figure in to determining who you’d rather build around.
I wouldn’t trade Bosh for Rose straight up – not because he’s not better, but because Bosh might not stay in Chicago if he’s the only star. Then we get left with nothing.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
I will buy that argument although I would disagree.
If you thought he was leaving certainly you don’t make the deal. But odds are the Bulls with Hinrich Gordon Deng Bosh Noah and a strong bench would win 50 games next year and Bosh would re-sign. Chicago is a great city and unless he made an under the table deal with Lebron he’s going nowhere.
Age isn’t a factor at 24. And contract status is pointless too. You don’t really save any money with Rose. Whatever you save by paying him the minimum now is lost in the later years Rose will play than Bosh. Both players will max out essentially the rest of their careers.
the contract and age is not pointless
it is if you want to make it a simplistic angry discussion.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
So 24 is too old for you
I suppose you would have kept Al Jefferson instead of Garnett. Yeah, dumb move by the celtics.
I forget
you DO like to keep things simple. It’s more your speed.
::leaps out of thread while making whoosh noise::
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:47 PM CST up reply actions
I have to break it down otherwise you just make childish insults
I assume it’s because you don’t understand. Either that or you just like to be difficult. Whichever it is, keeping it simple helps sell the point.
I like that
but who is the crunch time guy on that team? Don’t say bosh, judging by his performances he doesnt see any difference between the playoffs and regular season, and i mean that in a bad way. and, naturally, dont say gordon, we’ve seen enough awkward 20-footers launched up through double-teams. rose comes with a big risk, but for all of his flaws right now his style of play is more conducive to winning close and postseason games than bosh’s. moreover, rose has already shown some signs that he elevates his play the closer the clock gets to 48:00. the question to me is like this: would you prefer knowing for certain you can get good but probably not great success out of a team, or would you take a risk at something singular knowing you could just as easily end up in the swamp. i think sports enthusiasts look for transcendence, because after a while stable goodness just isnt that stimulating.
I don't think Bosh limits you to only good.
You make great points about Bosh and Gordon late game questions. But at the same time, neither had each other on the floor at the same time. I think it’s too early to judge each player as a non-finisher when they are young and on limited offensive teams.
yEAH
It’s sad….BG was so dominant in the crunch time his first 2 years……I miss those days.
I remember when he scored what was it 22-24 pts in the 4th against granted the lowly bobcats, but it was his rookie year, and I was floored…..I really thought we had another soon to be superstar, undersized, but possibly an A.I. type….
But then Gordon never improved his ball handling and folks learned tricks to slow him down many nights (not all cuz sometimes he’s just ridiculous) but many nights….
Sad…
Actually you're getting close
Portland could offer more than the Bulls. They’d need to put someone better than Sergio in. But you’re on the right track.
Ah, for the good old days when Paxson had collected enough assets to deal for a superstar
Where have you gone Kevin Garnett?
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
no chance of going through
the blazers dont want that type of player at all. Selfish, arrogant, little defense. He wouldnt mesh in that locker room.
Why would the Suns want Noc?
They have Matt Barnes as the backup SF, he plays actual D, is tougher and younger and a better 3 pt shooter and doesn’t chuck.
And is playing on a minimum contract
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
if we can do this without giving up tyrus id be for it
larry has that system down to a science. Especially with the way the economy is….big wigs like larry coming in dressed in their mink coats and 24k gold cigarrete holders with pockets lined with coke make for a large draw during shift changes.
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 9, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i can't
believe i read all this (okay, most and didn’t get a headache (okay, maybe a little).
looking forward to tonight’s: amare vs d’antoni. woo!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
i think kerr
is still recovering from the shaq trade to do something as stupid as trading away amare
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
Kerr
after Shaq trade: “If it works, I’m a genius. If it doesn’t, I’m a moron, I guess”.
Amare’s line tonight: 6-17,8-10,20pts,4reb,3ast,0bs.
Maybe he’s trying to get traded, ‘cause he’s not trying to rebound or defend.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
That's 4 reb
in 39 minutes, kids.
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
He's regressed into Tyrus Thomas!
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
that really is horrendous. wow.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Worse than Eddy Curry and LMA!
In Rose We Trust
by Granny Waiters on Jan 23, 2009 12:02 AM CST up reply actions
well if cant rebound
do we have any use for him here?
haha just kidding
Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens
He'll come back
with some 30+ and even 40+ games again this year, and he’ll have a few big reb games too (he’s had 20, and had 10 blocks in year 1 or 2). Early game vs IND this year was the best I’ve ever seen from him. Not the 49 pt so much as the all around team play, with several assists from the high post.
I just wanted to point out to some on BaB that (seemingly) don’t follow every game that he’s very inconsistent, and always has been. Suns fans are frustrated ‘cause they’ve seen the max effort from him, they know the difference.
It’s anyone’s guess if he’s actually trying to play his way off the team. One thing for sure about him though, he’s no Brad Miller, LOL!
"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!
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