Hughes to Nets sorta-update
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 8:27 AM CST
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PrintWhy talk about the game, to be honest. They went to tiny ball (I suppose Rose is bigger than Chris Duhon, so not quite tiny) and lost down the stretch. Can I be that upset with Deng and Hinrich (who both had fantastic first halves) doing nothing in the 4th if they weren't at their natural position? Vinny was a bit handcuffed with Gooden out and Thomas with foul trouble, but I don't think Thomas gets to carry over his 6th foul to the next game either...
So on to an update of the shuffling-deck-chairs proposed trade of Hughes to the Nets.
A league source confirmed a report in the Bergen (N.J.) Record that the teams have had serious trade talks. It’s up to the Nets to sign off, and the deal will get done.
A league source suggested this deal was discussed weeks ago and both teams already decided it didn't make sense. This particular deal would add roughly $5 million to the Nets' payroll over the next two seasons.
The Bulls likely would accept any deal that doesn't involve contracts extending beyond 2010, brings a big man in return and doesn't include any bad-character guys.
That's right, two instances of a 'league source'. Hanley also mentioned that Pax may want to hurry on a deal for Simmons because of the recurrence of Drew Gooden's injury...though that's just more opportunity to play small.
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league source = ball boy in the practice gym
Larry plays his ‘good guy’ card, and takes one last swipe at Vinny (I love it!):
’I’ve played for some good coaches and on some good teams, and I’ve always been out there, so this is new for me,‘’ Hughes said. ’’I’m just trying to stay positive. I’m still helping the guys out as far as telling them what I see and what I can help them with.
‘’I don’t know how to react to it. At the same time, I’m not selfish. … So I just kind of go along and try to support the guys who are playing, knowing my time is probably coming.’’
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
by NormVanBeer on Jan 21, 2009 8:33 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
ba-zing!
I did not catch that, heh.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 8:37 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe I'm missing this
but I’ve seen Gooden pretty vocal with the bigs on this team coming out of 4th quarter timeouts when he’s not even entering the game. Gooden is giving pointers to Noah and Thomas at the conclusion of the team huddle.
Hughes? I haven’t seen him do this at all. Have I overlooked Hughes doing this?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
eh...
to his defense, just because we don’t see it doesn’t mean that he isn’t doing it. Maybe he is talking during the game, while sitting on the bench. In any event, we don’t really care, now do we?
http://awsomepeoplesearch.com/
At this point
I just want some trade, any trade, even one where we give away more talent and get another redundant piece.
This team is just good enough to keep games interesting and lose at the 3 minute remaining mark.
Very very frustrating, and I know that just good enough to lose at the 3 minute mark has a lot to do with coaching (Sadly as I’ve tried to be one of the bigger VDN supporters out there because of the shitty role he’s been placed in, but he has to learn to reel the team in)…..
Yesterday was frustrating, that Rose turnover, and then the Bibby loose ball foul that turned into an uncalled steal/turnover pts for Atlanta, very frustrating…..though had this team had any sort of coolness down the stretch, these things wouldn’t happen. We get in a helter Skelter (coming down fast) mode in the end of the games and play very stupid bball, especially when most of the stupidity is on our 5th and 6th year players (Gordon and Hinrich—that Cavs play—of late)…..
Agreed
Which ultimately means that the Bulls “veteran” players (Kirk, BG and possibly Deng) realistically are not going to lead the Bulls to a title. They simply lack mental toughness / adequate leadership ability!
Also:
I dont usually complain about the ref’s, but I will say that last night’s ref’s were terrible, favoring Atlanta. That Bibby steal of BG right at the end of the game had to be a foul (they never showed a replay?).
The play looked like Bibby smacked Gordon in the face
it was tough call in real time. You could have gone either way.
Put it this way, Hinrich was called for a push on Pachulia in the 4th quarter when Hinrich was 10’ away from Pachulia. That was an outstandingly atrocious call. The nearest Bull was 4’ from Pachulia. he just fell out of bounds trying to save a possession. The call was really late as well.
I think this same official tried to make up for it when he t’d up Bibby trying to defend against Noc posting him up. The replay showed Bibby sort of swiping his arm at Noc as he was falling, but from the ref’s angle it should have looked like Bibby trying to cushion his fall. Either that or Bibby was T’d up before the post and the ref didn’t call it until the next whistled stoppage.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
Thomas got jobbed on a couple calls too
which hurt since it got him yanked from the game.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
Like I say
Out of all the 4major sports, the NBA has the worst officiating, NBA officials probably cost teams to lose more games than in any other sport
I know
the refs weren’t great and Pachulia’s flopping all game made Noc look like a b-movie actor…..
But still we did make some bad mistakes down the line.
Ben was hit, looked like an easy foul to me on tv, but then again Ben should know the pressure was coming and not be looking behind him, or to the side after a big steal in a big moment.
Needs more Lebron fast breaking
Just be a Bull and charge forward. Take strides like their leaping steps and the refs will have to call a block due to the defender not allowing the offensive player to land with the ball.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
uh I don't think a veteran core of Kirk/BG/Deng
is being held back from a title because they lack leadership
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
uh I do...
and I said “adequate”.
Or are you implying it is due to a lack of talent – you lover of all things BG? :)
Kirk: I like him a lot. But like we all feel, his “mopiness” is NOT maturity.
Deng: The book is still out on Deng since he is still only 23. I’ve seen a lot of good things lately in his play, but his leadership ability on-court and off-court are still question marks.
BG: DO NOT GET ME STARTED!!! :)
Bah... both articles seem to imply the Bulls are no dice if it means taking back Sean Williams
Because he’s a douche.
Really? So what. He’s a cheap douche. Just waive him and enjoy the moderate cap savings you’ve achieved by pawning off Hughes.
I mean, if this gets done without taking back Williams, then cool. But if it doesn’t get done, then it’s pretty stupid if that’s the reason.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 21, 2009 9:01 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
I concur.
Williams over Ager should not be a deal-breaker. It’s trash for trash.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I don't...
Ager is in his last year, Williams has one more year left.
Roster spot flexibility does matter (for next year)!
Keep your options open.
How much cap space do we want to clear with this trade?
Gooden, Simmons, Hunter, and Ruffin expiring contracts should be enough money to resign Gordon or do something else if this deal is made with or without Williams.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
It would do very little for cap space.
It would add roughly an extra $2.4M.
The Bulls do not need cap space to re-sign Ben Gordon, they hold his Bird Rights and can exceed the cap to resign him….
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
TAX
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions
(you did know that, right?)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions
Tax?
The Bulls only have about $56M in committed salary next season…that should be right near the cap…if they save $2M, they will be below the cap. Even if the tax is reduced to $70M, the Bulls will have at least $14M to play with…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 21, 2009 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
(you're forgiven, you just didn't know)
The Bulls have more like $65m committed.
that’s $9m, and you haven’t even factored in your future MVP Aaron Gray’s free agency. And fixing the whole friggin’ frontcourt.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know where or how he came up with that number.
But its not accurate. Maybe he was taking the cap hold created by BG or Gooden into account. But next season’s commitments are…(numbers rounded for brevity)
Hughes 13.6
Kirk 9.5
Deng 10.4
Noc 7.5
Rose 5.2
Thomas 4.8
Noah 2.5
Sefolosha 2.8
Total 56.3.
That is 8 players under contract…that is only committed salaries and the cap holds created by your future MVP Ben Gordon and the other Bulls’ free agents.
Story Teller Salaries.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 21, 2009 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
*Not the cap holds
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 21, 2009 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
and i dont know about gray
but gooden and gordon are unrestricted FA’s, so they don’t create any cap hold
There's a cap hold unless/until a team rescinds the rights to a UFA
Which means, they’d have to give up the Bird rights for the player
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
good call
i imagine we’ll rescind the rights to gooden, and hopefully we re-up gordon quickly so that cap hold doesn’t hinder what we do all summer
the cap holds don't hinder them
since they’re not going to be under the cap regardless.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
couldnt it hurt them though
if gordon and the bulls dance around each like they did this offseason, and then he signs somewhere else late in the offseason? i realize we wouldnt be able to do much since they wont be under the cap, but say we dont use the MLE because we want that money to re-up Gordon and stay under the tax, then Gordon goes somewhere else, and there’s really no option left to use the MLE on? I realize this is kind of a doom and gloom situation, but planning on having BG back and him bolting late could really hurt
we have a miscommunication on the Tax and Cap
the Bulls will be over the Salary cap (~$55m) this offseason no matter what they do in terms of their cap holds.
The restriction to sign Gordon (not a steadfast restriction, but we’re playing in the Bulls reality) is the Luxury tax, which is assessed at the end of each season based on the team’s actual payroll, not things like cap holds.
So my point was that what they do with Gooden in terms of his rights makes no difference to what they can offer Gordon.
But your point about a scenario where Gordon bolts and the Bulls don’t have anyone to use their MLE on is possible. Usually those guys are signed last anyway, and to be honest there are not many good options even at that price, which if you’re talking the full MLE isn’t exactly cheap in the first place.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
The salary cap this season...
Is $58.68 million….while many of us are projecting that number to go down as it is directly tied to basketball related income, we don’t know what the cap will be next year.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
I was guessing
as my point was the Bulls won’t be under it whether it was 58 or 55.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 2:29 PM CST up reply actions
you're not counting the other players required to fill out the roster
plus a couple mill will go to the 1st round pick. also i think part of that 65 mill figure was counting simmons (at the time that was written, it wasnt known whether he’d be extended or not). i’d say the outlook right now is somewhere between your 56 mill and his 65 mill; probably closer to 60-62 mill when it’s all said and done
ideally, we should be gunning to be right at the cap
that way, we could conceivably use a good portion of the MLE and possibly re-up BG without hitting the dreaded tax. of course, this outlook is all likely (or at least hopefully) to change by the deadline
so....you just didn't read the link then.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
A couple clarifications
I think I double counted Thabo in my original post several months ago. Or my syntax is just really screwy. It’s not really clear. But the salary commitment could be slightly less than $65M.
We’ve got 8 players under contract, as DionneWarrick2.0 states.
However, he neglects that we’re going to have a first round pick and we’re going to have to have a variety of minimum salary guys filling out the roster..
So take the $56M amount
+ ~ $2M for our first round pick.
That brings us to 9 players. We have to carry at least 14 on our roster, so the remainder we have to fill out using minimum salary guys. We don’t have a second round pick next year, so that means we’ll need at least five players at $825,497 each. That adds $3.3M
So we end up with something on the order of $61.3M in commitments.
The luxury tax threshold, of course, is unknown at this point.
- If it goes up according to historic levels, it’s around $74M and we’ve got close to $13M in salary to work with.
- If it stays the same ($71M), we’ve got less than $10M to work with.
- If it goes down, obviously we’ve got less.
If I had to bet, I’d bet on the LT staying about the same or going down.
So then end result is pretty much the same. We probably are going to have less than $10M as a starting salary to work with to re-sign Gordon or work a sign and trade. My guess is that’s enough to get it done, but it’s not so much that another team couldn’t come in and make a superior offer by front-loading the contract.
probably not going to get it done, because it will be easy for another team, if it wants Gordon, to simply frontload the contract and push us over the tax threshold.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 21, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
and I think I explained this to you before
you can’t be only $2m under the cap. Unless you purposely only wanted to spend $2m on Free Agents instead of the $5.5m MLE.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
I didn't think I had to spell everything out for you.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 21, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
maybe a disclaimer?
so when you say “if they save $2M, they will be below the cap.”
follow it with “I don’t know what I’m talking about and when simply corrected will respond jerkishly, watch out!”
I’m fine with the first part, the cap is complicated and I make mistakes too. But don’t be an ass when corrected on it.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
While its probably a misunderstanding
I felt like you were being an ass in your reply….in reality, you have told me very little regarding the salary cap. I understood that it’s not a favorable position for the Bulls to get $2M below the cap.
You are right, the CBA is complicated and I would have been better served saying the deal saves roughly $2 million next season.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
they could get a 3rd team to take Williams.
hell, pay the Grizzlies cash-money to do so.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
By the way...
…with the NO-NO-LUXURY-TAX edict, any chance the Bulls use the trade exception created last year?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
I would think it's only used as a means to make a deal that includes Deng work
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
yes, true.
but i was just thinking on the principle that it would be being able to take a player on without having to give one up.
On that note
taking back Ager + Williams + Simmons would actually put the Bulls within a few thousand of the LT. Since I (and I don’t think anyone else) don’t have complete confidence in my numbers being exactly right, it could actually put them over the LT
So the Bulls are probably only willing to take one of Ager or Simmons, but not both.
De gustibus non est disputandum
Huh?
Ager or Simmons but not both? There is about a $9M dollar difference there…
Did you mean Ager or Williams, but not both? That is about a $450k difference…I suspect that amount will put the Bulls into luxury tax territory. Because in terms of talent and position, the Bulls would be better served taking a flyer on Williams than Ager…
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
I dunno
they’re taking fliers on half the roster already.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
So, according to McGraw
The Bulls didn’t accept what the Nets had to offer for Hughes. I don’t know what Pax is thinking. Everyone who could help, be cheap and don’t make waves on the locker room (like Simmons) would be welcome for Hughes
Williams doesn't fit that
unless he was sent immediately to the D-League. No shots of them coming out of SUVs and walking into the Berto center or anything.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
I don't have a problem with that
Send him to the D-League. We only want his contract. We’re not expecting him to contribute
I doubt Williams would be quiet
Maybe his agent told him to keel the public comments about declining his rookie contract option years. I sure hope so.
He seems to think he has a big chance to contribute outside of the Nets organization and get paid a lot more money sooner than his 5th season.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
this will not jive well with our 'generous' chairman
(nor should it in this case, the rookie scale is one of the few times the organization has real leverage)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
With his attitude, he'll be lucky to still be in the league after his rookie contract
If he keeps getting thrown out of D-League games, he may get his wish to have to his option declined.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
while im obviously up for getting hughes out of town asap
this trade doesn’t really do anything for me. any old clown in their right mind can see that moving hughes for a contract that doesnt go past 2010 needs to happen. i still dont trust paxson to make the right moves with this roster, and i’ve already conceded that we’ll be taking hansbrough in the draft. get nocioni out of town for some cap room and then i’ll believe that change is on the way.
I can't think of any scenario where Noc can be dumped for an expiring contract
despite what KC keeps saying.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
i cant either
i shouldve been more clear; id take a 2010 expiring for him, and maybe have it be a part of a larger deal that somehow frees up some money this summer. i dont feel like toying with the trade machine and figuring it out because it depresses the shit out of me
whats actually ironic
is really about the only expiring contract in the league that i can think of that would be a fair straight up deal for noc is gooden’s, and low and behold we already have him.
I get wanting to hold out for a mega-deal
but the season could be over by 2/13. And while I know we get talk of ‘rebuilding’ and ‘transition’ shoved down our throat, I really don’t think the org. wants to miss the playoffs again.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
true
we all know reinsdorf is salivating at the revenue a couple home playoff games will bring in
not just that
but I think there’s some people paying real money who are rightfully pissed off.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
I know this proposed trade does nothing, but aside from this trade with a rookie coach?
How can we make the playoff without another major trade besides this attitude/salary dump?.
man up!
I dunno.
I suppose my point is that they’ll be trying and dealing under that mindset.
Within limits, obviously. I don’t expect them to sell out for stopgap vets either. Just don’t see them blowing it up for draftpicks.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 4:10 PM CST up reply actions
meh, I'm only an 11-game pass guy
a pittance!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 10:50 PM CST up reply actions
So...
does this mean we trade Noc?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Noce leaving
Does anyone have a list of potential teams that would be interested in him?
in America?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
Collective BaB wisdom
says Toronto, San Antonio, and I’m missing one…arg…
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
san antonio wouldnt touch that contract
plus, i think their biggest issue is the frontcourt slot next to duncan; despite how decently he’s played this year, i highly doubt matt bonner is the answer
they wouldn't touch Noc as a player
well they’d touch him, but he’d be benched a-plenty. Bonner has always been the rich man’s Nocioni, an ironic name since he makes less than half the money.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
Okay so much for the SAS,
what other team was it? Toronto and…blanking here.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Any team that doesn't care about his contract and feels he can help contribute to a winning environment
Fist pumping and all that shit. Cleveland? I dunno, that contract is just awful.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 21, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
Welcome, the collected wisdom of BaB has spoken.
It’s Toronto or bust. Probably bust.
What the hell do we do with Simmons, then?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
meant to say
well, the collected…
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Every team needs a bench mob
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 21, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions
What about the Cavs?
Szcerbiak is an expiring contract.
Noc + Gooden for Wallyworld?
How long is Big Z going to be on the shelf? They could use a little shooting from the PF/C position.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
it's a tough question to be honest
he’d be good on a really terrible team that just wants to bring any type of good attitude and effort. But those teams are usually looking to shed payroll not extend it.
And he’d be good as a spot-minute guy on a contending team, but those teams are usually already have a huge payroll as it is. I suppose a team that’s so close to a title they’re willing to pay more tax money, like Cleveland?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
Cavs' long sought replacement for Donyell Marshall?
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
They could trade Szczerbiak for something better.
Either at the wing, or up front, then take on Nocioni to fill in for Szczerbiak? hahaha who knows?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
yeah, they could get someone far better for Szcerbiak
I was hoping for maybe Pavlovic+filler, but you’d need a couple million in filler and the Cavs don’t have enough disposable contracts.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 12:40 PM CST up reply actions
Matt Carroll was traded
However he’s about 20 contract points shy of Nocioni’s deal.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
though traded for even worse
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
Larry Brown got him a center
Wait, offense? Larry doesn’t coach that.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 1:24 PM CST up reply actions
Now that's a bad contract
5 years, $30 million for DeSagna Diop? Almost makes the Noc contract look good by comparison.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
plus Diop's deal escalates
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 2:05 PM CST up reply actions
The Toronto announcers loves Noc.
The less savvy fans there would probably like him too for his “grit and hustle”.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 21, 2009 8:04 PM CST up reply actions
Noce & Toronto
Is difficult because Toronto doesn’t have a lot of contracts to play with…
Here is a question what player would you most like to see grouped with Noce for a player ?
Thabo
Noah
Tyrus
(kirk really doesn’t count because nobody is touching that contract & Noce’s)
Bargnani for Thabo & Noce. (sorry to refloat idea but the NJ thread is pretty much dead with the 3 way with NJ). I can’t think of any other intising trade with Noce.
That would be nice if Toronto wanted to trade Bargnani
But, apparently, they don’t. They prefer to trade O’Neil. And is understandable
at some price
Yeah but he is not untouchable. There is a price that Raptors would move him. Noah & Noce? Would giving up on Noah be enough to free up Noce’s contract?
Definately a 4
Bargnani is definately a four, but I would think you could play some stretches with a frontcourt of Deng – Bargani – Tyrus. Especially if Deng’s rebounding continues at this pace.
Colangelo is not realistically giving up Bargnani for any Bulls player short of Rose,
so forget about that trade.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 21, 2009 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
no way they trade bargnani
the way he’s playing right now, and the season they’re having, and jermaine o’neal.
I don't know anything about contracts and how they structure them but...
what was Paxson thinking giving Nocioni this contract? I would think things like that would get you fired as a GM. And what about the Hinrich and Deng’s contracts? Like I said I don’t know about these things but I get the feeling Paxson is putting together quite the crappy track record. As well as a crappy team but I guess that goes hand in hand.
Noc's contract is the only indefensible one.
Kirk got a contract around $10M per year when he was the best player on the team, and it declined over time, which helps with future cap flexibility (we can rehash that debate if we want to, but I still think it was a shrewd move with Kirk’s contract). Our perspective is different now, but I don’t think it’s a bad contract per se (it’s just not great on a team with a younger, cheaper franchise PG). Deng is maybe a bit overpaid, but we won’t really know that until later; he’s still too young to decide. We paid a little above market price this year, but if he develops even moderately, we’ll probably have him a bit below market in his prime years. You could argue he’s not a great building block, and that the market is screwy, but it’s not a ridiculous contract.
Noc’s contract is ridiculous all around, though. He’s not young, he’s a career bench guy, and it was a long duration. I don’t know if Pax or the Chairman deserves the blame (or both), but whatever.
In Pax’s defense, one horrible contract is not that bad for a GM these days, especially when it’s not even close to max level. It’s not even the full MLE, I don’t think.
by arjoseph on Jan 21, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
all three are bad contracts, if they become preceived bad after the next day signing or within one or two years like Kirk's..
excuses, excuses, excuses = continued losses and missed playoffs.
Hard decisions must be made and at every opportunity to clear salary space for starters.
With the glut of good pgs in and coming to the NBA, Kirk’s contribution to many teams is a good third guard and Noc is already a backup.
11 decling to 8 million for a backup eats cap space, when you can get guys like Lindsey Hunter to backup starters for about 1 million. Same goes for the 8 million dollar “Noc” for the next xxxxx years.
Paxsdorf has no defense …..
man up!
So you're proposing that hard decisions be made with prescience?
Find me a GM that can see the future and I’ll give you championships.
Who expected this “glut of good PGs”? Even after this draft, nobody expected Mayo, Chalmers, Augustin, Westbrook, and CJ Watson (undrafted, for chrissakes) to be this good already. Nobody was saying back when we signed Kirk that it was a bad deal because Mike Conley, Ramon Sessions, Rodney Stuckey, Randy Foye, Jordan Farmar, Kyle Lowry, Rick Rubio (can we call him Ravishing Rick Rubio yet?), Rajon Rondo, Steven Blake, Devin Harris, and Jameer Nelson were available or coming down the pike.
No, at the time we signed Kirk it was considered a “discount.” Tony Parker got 6 years $66M with his extension just two years prior putting up similar stats while playing bad defense and having a HOF big man to pass to (16/6/3 for both, with different percentages; Tony could finish his 2s but had no range and couldn’t make FTs, whereas Kirk had more “prototypical” PG percentages — lowish FG with some range and high FT).
Unfortunately, mere humans have to make decisions in real time and not everything is foreseeable or controllable. As it was, Kirk’s contract was a good decision. You wouldn’t be saying it was “bad” if we hadn’t drafted Rose because Kirk wouldn’t be a “backup,” he’d be a “starter,” and making less than most starting PGs in the league who aren’t still on their rookie contracts. That nobody needs Kirk right now is more a fluke of the talent pool than a “mistake” on Pax’s part.
By the way, while you can always sign Lindsay Hunter to a $1M contract, you probably wouldn’t want to. Every back-up PG in the league (again, who’s not still on their ridiculous rookie contract) costs somewhere in the $4-$7 range.
by arjoseph on Jan 21, 2009 5:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think he was thinkin
Well we’re winning on the up and up and Noc is such a great locker room guy (Whcih by all accounts on bulls.com and in hoopshype press worlds, remain true).
Noc would be decent for a winning team, which we were, as he does add a dynamic to the club that was lost when we used to hit those customary lulls in the Skiles days.
I don’t know why Pax went so FREAKING high though……esp with Deng and BG on the mind and other young players….
I mean I don’t htink Pax thought of Noc as the Deng replacement…..
I don't think they overpaid too badly on an annual basis, it was the number of years that make it a bad contract
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
What I've always said.
If he was expiring next year, it’d be an excellent contract.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Yeah
I think it was more a few million too much. I think he’s not as bad as folks think if he made $5M instead of 8….he’s really good for $5M….but being almost 40% more than that and extending a few years is rough.
Still though if we were the contender we were supposed to have been, he would be a nice piece for the spark off the bench we needed…..
Was Nocioni's contract signed the year everyone was touting the Bulls to
win the East?
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 21, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
Yes,
that is always conveniently left out of all Noc contract bashing. The team was winning and didn’t want to lose its core over a few dollars. Then they crashed and the budget tightened.
The contract was bad the moment it was signed.
The team over-valued core stickiness and glue-guy-iness.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
Noc was never a core
unless the core is the whole rotation.
They took an asset and made it a liability
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Shoulda let Memphis have him;
then, when they were dying to get out of salary hell with Gasol, we could’ve taken Noc’s “terrible conract” off their hands. (to get Gasol).
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Yeah
I was really a Gasol proponent, do whatever you can for him then…..and it didn’t happen.
I know it’s easier to say now.
I wouldn’t have say given them BG-Deng-Noc-Kirk, but a reasonable contract that at face value favored Memphis at the time, would have been worthwhile….we could see the holes that the PF/C emerging….
Oh well ancient history.
I do think Noc can be a decent player in this league on a defensive oriented team, but we’ve forgotten all of those defensive principles, and thus he is made to look worse, and the others D is just horrid (sans Kirk, and the occasional—and getting more consistent-Deng game).
"They took an asset and made it a liability"
This one line tells the story of Nocioni since his first playoff appearance.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions
So I can somewhat understand now.
Nocioni was a favorite of Skiles also. His name was being chanted in the playoffs remember those days? I guess I remember him being better back then..
I think his contract was more drunk love and title aspirations. I don’t think anyone imagined the Bulls would be this.
by ImmanuelKant on Jan 21, 2009 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
If we played
and focused on D, Noc would be better.
The Bulls are an ATROCIOUS defensive team. I know Noah can have moments that folks remember where his D looks good, but he also has his share of missing rotations. Tyrus Thomas still is far too often out of position guarding nobody. Rose looks like a borderline all star/emerging superstar on O, but is just atrocious on D and makes BG look like an all nba player at times. Gordon is still more O than D (fare more O than D). _rew lost the D in his name 2 months ago and we haven’t seen it come back. Deng’s been hurt, Kirk’s been hurt. Vinny doesn’t seem to be working on this team’s defense as nothing’s changed, except Kirk’s back and Deng’s getting healthy so we’re slightly better defensively despite the fact that nobody plays. Noc tries on D, but seems perennially stuck in a zone…..
On a team that focused on D a bit though, Noc would be far more productive off the bench. But the fact that our team plays no D, and Noc is and always was a streaky shooter, he looks worse than he is especially when his $8M could be used to sign a piece we really need…
He is what he is
Paxson is an idiot for giving him a contract that long. Nocioni would be valuable even if he was playing poorly with a shorter contract because you could ship him to almost every NBA team. You’re right, he’s more valuable to a winning team. If his contract expired in 2010, it’d be ridiculously easy to let him go.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 21, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
AGREED
And well said.
I get a lot of irk on here for defending Noc (I like him a lot actually but we don’t need him) but all along my thoughts are similar to yours….and I do know he should be traded because we’re not good enough to keep him….but the extension of his contract does make it hard…..
Even if he made what he made through 2010, he’d be movable right now for a real piece. Now I think to part with him we have to take in more real crap.
He was better then.
He got older. He got worse. Shit happens? Or… this happens!
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 21, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You don't hand out lucrative extensions to your bench players
Especially since they spent the whole season saying “We aren’t trading Luol Deng back the fuck off.”
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 21, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
That's the even wors...er part of it.
They had a potential franchise SF already on the team!!!
Covering his assets. That’s Paxson.
“Well, I have to keep Hinrich around unless Gordon leaves.”
“Well, I have to keep Nocioni around unless Deng leaves.” (not that he said that, but have been thinking it.)
how about, let the lesser players go and give the extra moolah to the better players to ensure they stay?
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 21, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
this 'principle' bothers me too.
it’s like they prefer to keep guys as negotiating leverage against others.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 2:05 PM CST up reply actions
Paxson was trying to help out Billy King and Jerry West
supplanting them as the former GM’s with the worst contract extensions you could imagine. West with Brian Cardinal and King with Kenny Thomas.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
I wonder how many people have called for Jerry West's head (when he was still GMing).
I actually meant that to be a statement of perspective, but now that I think about it, Memphis fans probably were. It’s always feast or famine in fandom.
(Wait, nevermind. Memphis doesn’t have fans.)
by arjoseph on Jan 21, 2009 5:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
lol
(Wait, nevermind. Memphis doesn’t have fans.)
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 22, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
The longer the Bulls/Nets trade rumors go on...
the more I think it won’t go through. It’s NJ’s call but what’s taking so long? They have been at it for weeks. Is this not the second go around in this trade discussion? I hope it’s not on life support. Hurry NJ.
For Bulls/ For Nets
It’s 2 in for the Bulls and 1 in for the Nets. Perhaps both teams are working other deals simultaneously to conduct transactions to do the deal and fill out their rosters accordingly.
Both teams could be in the hunt for the 6-7-8 spots.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
why it taking so long
Paxson is trying to play hard ball, but he doesn’t realize that everyone see the work NERF on his forehead.
Yeah
I’m almost wondering if Pax’s crew leaked this trade out to say, come on people give me a better offer or I part with this one. I mean on talent alone the Nets win out big time…..
But then again each passing day teams with a shot worry more about Hughes tough to be around a locker room behavior.
Still he’s no Artest….so who knows. He’s not as good as ROn Ron, but he’s not nearly as bad as the ire on here, just not needed.
A shame too because he has all that talent.
Boooo.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
What's there to boo about
You can’t say Hughes is talentless. You don’t like him, he doesn’t play a team game very well, but the kid has talent.
I would think there’s something more to get than another 150% redundant piece….
I was just booing the mention of Hughes as a basketball player.
It’s a knee-jerk thing.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
Got it.
I sadly agree….Damn just wish he’d shut the f up and play….I mean you’d think $12.6 and 13.5M would be enough to do that wouldn’t you…. he never was a superstar either….
I will sit on the bench and watch the Bulls play for $12.6M/year.
I will.
Really.
In Rose We Trust
by Granny Waiters on Jan 22, 2009 9:25 PM CST up reply actions
What were the Nocioni to the Nets rumors last year?
Those were discussed with equal vigor, I think both GMs just like sending feelers out for this type of stuff.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
Wouldn't a "league source"
be someone at the NBA headquarters, ie: an official that reviews trade proposals to ensure CBA compliance?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 21, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
I have a feeling sportswriters use that term very liberally
Hell, the equipment manager might have overheard Hughes saying he might be traded to New Jersey, and passed it along.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
yeah, and I was against dumping him for expiring crap at the time
that would’ve been a great deal. Could’ve signed Gordon too.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 2:06 PM CST up reply actions
though keep in mind
that trade talk was before the Nets traded Kidd and Jefferson.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions
the link "to Hughes to the nets"
doesn’t work for me. It gives me the sbnation link picture
Vinny Del Negro: "I'm not a puppet, I'm a REEALLL Coach!"
thanks!
fixed it.
Why did it take this long for someone to catch that? :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
That's a lot of money to tie up at one position
They’d have $28 million worth of 3’s if they do this trade – and not one All-Star in the bunch.
Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0
because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger
They have over 100 million committed to the SF position right now
Both with long-term deals.
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 21, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
I actually like these quotes from Vinny on Rose in the McGraw article:
“I think he’s just got to continue to be aggressive,” coach Vinny Del Negro said before Tuesday night’s loss to Atlanta. “The referees will eventually come around with that stuff. He’s got to attack and get body contact, not try to jump over or around guys.”
Trailing by 1 with less than 30 seconds remaining against the Knicks, Rose went to the basket but couldn’t finish with 6-foot-11 Jared Jeffries in the way.
“Derrick’s got the floater and stuff,” Del Negro said. "It’s just a matter of not trying to extend too far to the basket, but getting into guys’ chests and getting the calls. We work on those things.
Maybe the guy isn’t actually as mentally challenged naive as I thought…
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Wow!
He really said those things? Maybe he’s not as clueless as we thought.. I would never tell DR to listen to him but this he needs to listen too. If DR does these little things when attacking the hoops we will average 6 FTs a game atleast maybe more depending on his attacking..
Maybe Vinny's been reading this blog?
I know a few of us made these exact same comments recently…;-)
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Baby steps...
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
I'm sure he's not clueless
And he knows the game and the league a lot better than me, i’m sure about that. Problem is, that doesn’t make him a good coach. We all can spot flaws in this team, but it’s another thing to actually effectively do something about it.
by grillo on Jan 21, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I keep checking
my email for one from Bulls.com saying that Hughes has been traded but sadly nothing yet. :-(
Ugh...
if all we have to talk about before Friday’s game is Larry Hughes for Nets garbage, there are going to be some banned commenters soon.
All trade proposals and no trades make BaB readers something something.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
here's one I was about to post
Even before Hinrich’s bad stint to end the game (which, as I mentioned, isn’t his fault he was the SF), he had a real bad one before then in the 3rd.
In the final 7:30 of the 3rd, Hinrich went 0-4 with 2TOs.
Not as much the results, but when I was watching it, it was bugging me. Because with Gordon on the floor at the same time (who had had 2 FGA with another trip to the line, and a TO himself) Hinrich was instead really trying to create for himself.
Now, it’s not a major difference in shots. But the point was Hinrich’s supposed to be Mr. Ball Movement and leader of a nation. But it sort of reminded me of, well, his career, which says he’s actually pretty shooty for a PG. That sort of was the philosophy of why he could be better off the bench.
Now, this is no real issue. I just found it interesting. I sort of like Hinrich in that role. Comes in at either guard spot, either he’s on or he’s not on offense, but he’s at least aggressive on both ends. He’s not some great facilitator, or a great scorer either…but he’s alright enough at both to be the backup to each. The problem is that Vinny views Hinrich as some important high-minute piece, so he feels he HAS to put him in to end the game, even though there was no spot for him.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Shot Selection Shot Att. eFG% Ast’d Blk’d Pts
Jump 92% .525 68% 2% 6.4
Close 8% .600 33% 0% 0.6
Dunk 0% .000 0% 0% 0.0
Tips 0% .000 0% 0% 0.0
Inside 8% .600 33% 0% 0.6
I’d call that pretty jump shooty! But in all seriousness, maybe you’re onto something here:
Position FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER*
PG 14.9 0.485 3.6 12% 2.7 8.1 3.2 0.5 3.2 17.2 12.4
SG 10.7 0.576 2.3 3% 4.9 6.8 2.9 1.0 4.9 14.3 15.8
This is from a small sample size due to his injuries this year, but I would have no problem starting Rose/Gordon and if Ben goes 1/5 in a quarter, bring in Kirk for Ben and leave Rose with Kirk.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jan 21, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions
Dammit
that sure didn’t work. I wish we could copy/paste stats easier (can we and I just don’t know?) but anyways, I agree with your point – got my stats and everything from The Bible 82 Games
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jan 21, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions
well I disagree with the 'hot hand' theory
if Ben goes 1/5 in a quarter, it’s actually more likely he’ll shoot better in another quarter, since on average he’s a good shooter.
I’m fine with playing Hinrich MORE in that scenario, but Vinny seems to think he has to sit Ben the whole 4th just because he’s not having a good shooting game.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:51 PM CST up reply actions
Vinny sits players for way too long a lot,
be it Ben/TT/Thabo. Going back to the Knicks game, Thabo had a great 1st half and then never even saw the court at all in the 2nd. The only player who seems to be immune from this treatment is Noce, and I have no idea why – maybe because he’s got plenty of bricks/flops/fouls “hustle” in him at all times.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jan 21, 2009 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't be surprised if Noc reminds coach that he's been out of the game for awhile.
As in, Vinny forgets about everyone he pulls out (because he’s not only coaching but actively trying to learn how to coach at the same time), and Noc is the only one who doesn’t let him forget. (I’m pulling this out of thin air, but like I said: wouldn’t be surprised.)
Bingo.. averages VDN probably failed "Math" in school
Oops! I’m not critical of his coaching just his math.
man up!
I agree
WITH EVERYTHING you just wrote
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Averages with Kirk are computed differently than Ben
Ben’s average can more quickly adjust during a individual game.
Whereas Kirk’s gets hot and might stay streaking hot for that whole game (except critical game winning shots), and maybe the next game also, and then go into an extended slump.
So that might explain why Kirk felt good and wanted to shoot, and continue to shoot. I believe he needs more discipline to allow the offensive game to come to him at this point (“couple of shot fall”), and try to really play the part of a PG to keep his team mates involved. Pass the Ball, Dude!
And if the ball circles itself back around to him and the shot clock is running out, then Kirk do your thing. I’d bet his shooting percentage would increase if he followed this type of ball sharing.
I’ve always felt Kirk never was mentored effectively as a PG, not by Skiles, Paxson or anyone which has hurt his development thus far. Still he should have notice this trend “Blind spot” in his game by now?
man up!
You are probably right however
i think the first step into having an identity is also to understand your role on the team. If its kirk and rose, kirks job is to move the ball around and take jumpshots, If its kirk and gordon kirks job is to move the ball around and maybe attack the rim rather than take jumpshots.
I think the problem with the roles is a direct influence through chemistry which is an influence of contracts. Some kind of indirect conflict, throughout the entire team. Consider the arguments that are often found here, and given what kind of characters this roster possesses you can see a problem. Hinrich and gordon can evolve from something that fans argue about, to suddenly “hey the organization is only gonna keep one of you, the best one of you, the one that works best with rose and helps the team the most”….suddenly both guys are trying to do more than what they can do, taking more shots than they should, or playing the game a way that isnt their strong suits.
Remember paxson drafted these guys to have the same sort of character. Hard working, and competetive doing what it takes to win, and loyal. They all want to remain on this team, they all are willing to work hard, and they all have competetiveness, except that competetiveness is being directed in a wrong way….at each other. Its not that hard to see that gordon and hinrich despite how they feel about each other personally, see each other as almost obstacles within the game.
This is the only reason i can think of that gordon tries to run the point at times (showing the organization “hey look, i can do the things kirk can do, but i score much better anyway!”) and why kirk took some ill advised shots in the last two games (“hey look, i can be a scoring threat, i can take the pressure off of rose!”) both are playing outside what their role should be and its costing the team. Ive said it already, gordon and hinrich are each a half of the perfect sg. One is a smart, defensive player who can control the action on the court when he is on it. He can lead and organize on the court and be a real floor general while also having individual talents that force teams to at least respect his game. The other is an offensive beast, who can light up teh scoreboard if you arent careful, and is almost emotionless in tight situations. Together they are the perfect backcourt mate for rose, alone they are extremely flawed…
Keep hinrich and gordon, goron starts because if he is hot early on then you can pretty much run the offense around him (and rose is the perfect guy to get that done) with hinrich coming off the bench for rose to keep up the defense. If gordon is off then put hinrich in and run that two pg offense that keeps defenses guessing. At the end of the game put gordon and rose in at the end for they are the only two players who can perform in the clutch at high levels. if the bulls are up then put hinrich in (and eithe rose or gordon, whoever played the best) because that will keep the team ball moving and the defensive intesity up…..
and yea i know….I WRITE TOO DAMN MUCH!!!!!
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
I disagree.
gordon and hinrich are each a half of the perfect sg.
The best attributes of Gordon and Hinrich combined < MJ.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 21, 2009 9:34 PM CST up reply actions
touche
sir….touche
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 21, 2009 11:59 PM CST up reply actions
i think you might have a point with the gordon/hinrich halves of a perfect sg
but then again, that’s kind of the whole problem with this bulls roster. they have at least 8 ‘decent’ players, they can only play 5. if the nba was 7 on 7 i bet the bulls would be much better. a deep roster isn’t necessarily one full of good players, it’s just specialists. bruce bowen would be atrocious on the bulls, Luke Walton too, or anybody on the celtics bench.
it's funny
That it always was Chandler and Curry together would have made a perfect C, but now it’s BG/Hinrich…..I don’t know, they’re still small…..but the two stars would definately be all stars…..
very good points..
no clearly defined roles established by the GM and coach. But mostly the GM. It’s unfortunate because clearly Paxson allowed his extreme feelings toward Kirk override remaining neutral, which would have help create an environment to foster cooperation and unity.
I also think Kirk had freedom to do whatever he wanted to do on the court, and Skiles didn’t rock that boat too often. That being said, Kirk’s not a bad guy so he didn’t take advantage or abuse this given authority too much. But, having this un-check freedom I believe also prohibit his growth during those lova-fest Paxson years. Now, yes Kirk and Ben both feel pressure, although Kirk is guaranteed a longer contract, the pressure from fans now overweights Paxson’s backing.
Well, Paxson is still in love with Kirk, but Paxson is now in the hot seat.
man up!
I'm glad you brought this up
I noticed a few possessions in the 2nd half of the Hawks game where Kirk was controlling the ball with Deng and Gordon running their butterfly runs around screens. Gordon came out on the strong side left and was wide open to receive the ball for an open shot or a cut with the ball to the rim. Kirk opted to keep the ball on both possessions. Once he dribbled into trouble and the other he passed to Deng on the right wing.
I thought both plays were poor simply for the result from passing to Gordon would have shifted the defense from a collapse on the weak side to an more open position that has to cover all the new angles the ball movement right would create.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 22, 2009 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
it was noticeable to me because that's supposed to be what he's not
Gordon does similar things all the time. But he’s the scorer, so I accept it.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 22, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
Something about the game that we didn't discuss...
What did you all think about the early hooks for Rose? Both in the 1st and 3rd quarters, around seven minutes in, VDN pulled him. He wasn’t playing well at the time(s). Good thing? Bad?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
if it's to limit his minutes
then good. Though he can play a few more than 31, right?
If it’s because VDN needs Hinrich out there and his ‘energy’ lineup, then bad.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions
that second option what I'm getting at
there’s been too much of not letting young players screw up and learn from it – I’m referring to both Skiles and Boylan’s treatment of T2/Noah/Thabo.
that VDN’s stuck with Derrick despite mistakes has been one of the few things i’ve agreed with. If now we find out the only reason he wasn’t yanking him was because the Captain wasn’t around…
It’s dangerous to do that to a young player. They start looking over their shoulder, get down on themselves, and then everything goes to hell. They tune out.
I’m not saying that’s what’s happening here. And Kirk definitely impacted the game positively when he came in initially. But it’s something to watch.
I just don’t trust this organization. Why should I?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 21, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Rec to that
if that’s really the case (Kirk’s absence being the only reason to not yank DR) then VDN is even worse than my worst nightmares. The second DR starts tuning out and acting more passively is the second Paxson should come down from the owner’s box and fire VDN during the game.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jan 21, 2009 3:51 PM CST up reply actions
And frankly,
you get the feel that VDN is hanging on to this team pretty loosely. it’s not mutiny time yet, but if Derrick were to feel alienated, I think we would see VDN go. And soon.
I’m all for it, frankly. I love the idea of a youth movement built around Derrick. As long as that doesn’t include the head coach.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
true
rolling out the ball for Rose was one of VDN’s few good qualities.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 3:52 PM CST up reply actions
Derrick has to keep playing
but I don’t hate the idea of a coach pulling him out for a couple minutes and going over a few things or saying stop screwing up on D and then sending him back in. You know like, coaching him and teaching him things. As long as he still gets his 30-40 min each night(avg closer to 40). However, I dont see Vinny adding much in that regard, or having the capacity to do so with out it being far more negative then positive.
Right. Agreed.
I’d even be a lot happier if it wasn’t VDN but Bernie or Del w/ a clipboard telling him not to go under a screen when you’re guarding Mike Bibby/give Duhon the jumper if he wants to take it. Pretty much as little time w/ VDN as possible.
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jan 21, 2009 4:21 PM CST up reply actions
I agree too
But Vinny should keep him on the court after the mistake. Sub him only after a few moments. Then, explain to him what he made wrong. Not taking him out immediatly. With Tyrus and Noa the same thing. They’re young and still adjusting
That's a good way to look at it.
As long as Vinny knows how to teach, and does.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
Whats up
Whats up with all this Ben Gordon resign love?, we need to let his ass walk after the season, don’t get me wrong, I like Ben, but the money we save by letting him go could be used for something else, its all about 2010
::Waits for yfbb::
"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."
by Ugh It Live! on Jan 21, 2009 4:04 PM CST up reply actions
meh
maybe if he says a dozen more times he’ll stop.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 21, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
We can buy a pair of magic beans!
I heard they grant your every wish!!!!!!!
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
This proposed trade is with Paxson's only remaining GM friend in the NBA?
since Zeke left, he already filled his quota with Cleveland (Jim Paxson land), and Kerr has Shaq coming of the books, positioning for 2010 and won’t touch our long contracts or cancer larry….
man up!
Its all just
rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, anyway. Really, who care about Hughes. Pax is gone after this year, and there will be a whole new team by 2010 built around Rose. If Pax had any real idea of what to do, or a vision for the team, we wouldn’t have this mess anyway. He did a great job with part One (clean up after Krumbs), but completely screwed the pooch with Part Deux (building a team). And what if Jay Williams had not gotten on this bike? Vinny del Negro? Really? Don’t get me started. Of all the gin joints in the world, you hadda pick this one? Play it again, Pax.
Rumorpress.net "Update"
In fact, General Manager John Paxson has already agreed on the trade, the only hold up is a Nets approval of the deal. It’s a surprising deal because several other teams have shown interest in Hughes. We all know Hughes has been a distraction to the team, but if the Bulls can wait it out a little longer, they could definitely find better value for the Forward. It seems, though, that Paxson is set on trading Hughes as soon as possible. For that reason, look for this trade to go down as soon as the Nets agree, which there are no guarantees they will.
http://www.rumorpress.net/?p=68
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
How about this?
A league source suggested this deal was discussed weeks ago and both teams already decided it didn’t make sense. This particular deal would add roughly $5 million to the Nets’ payroll over the next two seasons.
When did Larry un-Legend become a forward?
(excluding VDN’s screwy rotations)
by Granny Waiters on Jan 21, 2009 9:44 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly
what I was saying above:
bq.It’s a surprising deal because several other teams have shown interest in Hughes. We all know Hughes has been a distraction to the team, but if the Bulls can wait it out a little longer, they could definitely find better value for the Forward.
Hopefully this means another trade is in the works after this trade is pulled off.
Of course we normally only do 1 trade a year, so I doubt it….
You need a space after the period for block quote to work.
The “Preview” button is your friend here.
In Rose We Trust
by Granny Waiters on Jan 22, 2009 9:33 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah I know
I’m learning…..thanks though.
I forgot completely about the “preview” button though….force of habit made me click elsewhere.
Thanks.
I hope it happens before the west trip
Im a fan of bobby simmons (his jersey would have to say B simmons becuase of cedric). WIlliams to the d league
I would trade Hughes for any Simmons,
except for Richard.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 21, 2009 9:48 PM CST up reply actions
id do it for rich
maybe hed help gray lose 200lbs and make him a superstar!!
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
by piccolomair on Jan 22, 2009 12:04 AM CST up reply actions
if simmons wouldn't complain
because of lack of playing time, I’m all for this trade. And I really prefer Williams over Ager. He might contribute in case Gooden is traded or signes elsewhere.
How about offerring Noce and Gooden to the raps for Kapono, Parker, humpries after they make a JO for Marion trade. All 3 has 2 or less yrs under contract. Parker can score and defend at sg and not a midget. Kapono can shoot. Gooden will back-up both bargs and bosh and give them around 25-30mins. and raps gm likes noce(dunno if thats true)
They have moved on to wanting Mike Miller now
Instead of Larry Hughes, the New Jersey Nets have a preference to trade for Mike Miller of the Wolves, according to an NBA general manager familiar with the discussions.
Three team it
Wolves have parts we’d love to take home. Might even be able to send them Hinrich.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 22, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
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