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Knicks 102, Bulls 98

Blogabull_s_tiny by your friendly BullsBlogger on Comment 400 comments

Putting up a post-game stub now. Taping the game, so I don't want to see the score. :)

Damnit, no self-discipline. Saw the score.

Update: some jumbled thoughts of mine can be found here.

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Read More: Chicago Bulls at New York Knicks, Jan 19, 2009 12:00 PM CST

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How did the Knicks win that game?

They some of the worst shots. Rose had a bad bad day. I mean he got no calls but still you gotta be the man. You can’t let Chris Duhon get to the hole that easy. Oh well if Hinrich hits that 3 it would have been over.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:32 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I'm going to say...

Gordon 3-15, Nocioni 1-9, Gooden 1-5.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 2:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

trade bait.

haha

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Gah gooden and his defense

i know everyone rags on goodens defense, but i never though it was that bad…but today

gooden seemed to have no DESIRE to be out there, his body language was wack (cuz he aint starting?) and there were a bunch of times when he had a change to get his hand up and he just didnt….GET YOUR DAMN HAND UP….if a guy is shooting, even if he is 10 feet away, get your hand up its not that hard….damn!

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And his offense, too.

He is such a black hole offensively. He only passes the ball when he absolutely has to…

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 19, 2009 2:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

al haringtons veteran play

when guarding gooden, man gooden deserved the fall, he had hinrich with the hot hand open, and rose and tyrus made cuts, he deserved to fall on his ass, then he tried to call a trip, no…there was no foot in that fall.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The sad thing was Gooden.

Whining about it all the way into the timeout…the replay showed that Harrington just out foxed him…

I starting to view Gooden as a taller Larry Hughes.

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 19, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

GOD

I watched the Cavs-Lakers game yesterday, and while Ben Wallace sucked, he was at least trying out there……something he didn’t do at all for us last year.

I really can’t stand the way Ben Wallace has single handilly ruined our mojo…..he owes our fans his salary.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 9:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How many times will i have to post this!

NO D!
rew Gooen

"I can accept failure, but I can't accept not trying." -- Michael Jordan

by bennythebull on Jan 19, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

He does it EVERY GAME.

Did you watch the Spurs game, him guarding Tim Duncan was so bad … he’s like “Hey Duncan, you want to do a spin move to your right and get an easy layup! Go! Go right ahead!”.
I used to think Gooden was decent, and the more I see him play, the less I believe that. He’s below Noce for me defensively.

"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com

by Prevenge on Jan 19, 2009 10:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Spelling error.

*Goen [No d, little o]

"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com

by Prevenge on Jan 19, 2009 10:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Spelling error

_rew _ooen

no D, not that good.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 9:05 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If only we didn't already have a [name redacted].

"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com

by Prevenge on Jan 20, 2009 2:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You are right about that. However, I think he shouldn’t have even taken that three. The Bulls are a terrible offensive rebounding team so if he misses (as he did) it gives the ball directly back to the Knicks with very little time taken off the clock. They should have run a play to get a better shot and killed some clock. THis team is so undisciplined I can’t stand it!

by SickeyDimpkins on Jan 23, 2009 6:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I blame Kirk and TT

How did Mr. Smart decision man make such a poor decision?

TT had a great game but that shot was analogous to a tap in birdie and he missed it.

by robinhood on Jan 19, 2009 2:32 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Funny how that happens more often than not on lots of teams

But you’re right, no one ever makes mistakes. Only Bulls players.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 4:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Our team isn't mediocre

It’s bad, so I would give a .500 record a hug if it were attainable. But, go ahead and be the typical Bulls fan.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 4:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

didn't watch gm

but our frontcourt (Tyrus & Noah) played well

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 19, 2009 2:32 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

did noah have a career game on the glass

it would be nice if there was a team out there that actually had worse interior defense compared to the bulls. We finally have a team where our mediocre bigs can look like studs and raise trade value…woot woot!

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If the rotation minutes can look like they did today for every game...

…I’d be happy. Yeah, yeah, they lost, but reign in Noc’s shots, and take an average night from Gordon, and they’re better than most teams.

Damn Tyrus Thomas. He’s playing so well it’s like he’s going to make the Bulls have to think about keeping him.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 2:33 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Nocioni and Gordon sucked.

Vinny should have used Sefo.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, that's coaching.

Seriously. Where’s all the quick-trigger stuff we heard about Thomas and Noah?

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Stop Calling time outs

Does anybody notice Vinny “I have no clue” Del Negro abuses the timeouts, you don’t have to call a TO everytime something goes wrong, and Kirk that was a bad shot(run some clock)

by LOTP on Jan 20, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Lol

I do, that shit is irritating.

by chi on Jan 20, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yea.

gordon at least was trying to defend. noch shouldve been pulled, was making me mad!

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i've been going nuts the whole season watching Nocioni play Thabo's minutes...

I can’t believe some fans still think Nocioni’s better than thabo… I mean, thabo has a team-focused attitude, pass first mentality…

Noce, after hitting his first shot of the gaime (1-8).. guess what happens on the next possession….. CHUCK!!!

can’t believe this man… He should have been grounded on toronto and be sent his clothes and belongings from someone in chicago…

trade him for ANYONE! And add Gooden in the lot..

I kinda like Hughes now he is not playing anymore…. and he’s off the payroll soon! As long as he doesn’t spread the cancer… he should be banned like marbury

by simonswiss on Jan 19, 2009 5:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well he is.

And he’ll be traded for more than Thabo.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 9:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thabo downt he line

Maybe, but Thabo can’t shoot and can’t take over some games the way Noc can….

Thankfully though Thabo also doesn’t force as much as Noc…

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 9:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes Noc has to go

Noc makes to many mistakes deffensively

by LOTP on Jan 20, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Where Thabo?

2 or 2 in the first half ….. no second half mins>?

If Deng is hot and he was then let Thabo play the 2 because Ben didnt have it today.

by Jscho316 on Jan 19, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

Damn our 4th pick and one of the CORNERSTONES of the franchise for finally playing so well! Damn him for that! Damn him for not just shooting the ball everytime he gets it! Damn him for playing good D and hustling! Damn him for being active on offense!

Damn him for not being Drew Gooden or Andres Nocioni! Damn Him!

Are you serious? The Tyrus hate is absolutely OFFENSIVE to me around here. The guy is really putting up good numbers and you guys STILL can’t give him credit? You’re pissed because he’s playing well? Seriously? I hope that was a sarcastic post!

by kwintz on Jan 19, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

he's not being serious.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I was mocking CJ Bulls...

…who said it would be a bad deal for the Bulls if Thomas played well the rest of the year because they’d have to think about paying him. (S)he was being serious. (S)he could possibly even think that just plain cutting Thomas is good for the team.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ahhh okay haha..

The moron that started the “Ty era needs to end” thread…well I guess I could have taken a look at your avatar—-I was just in a blind, mad rage after this loss…haha

by kwintz on Jan 19, 2009 4:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's cool.

I would expect anyone to pay attention to my avatar. If it wasn’t obvious, then it was bad satire/good sarcasm on my part. Or something.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 4:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The rotation minutes were good...except.

Del Negro left Gordon out there too long while he struggling to get anything going…and Thabo gave them good minutes early and never got off the bench…what’s the joke around here, oh yeah, he must have had an unprofessional halftime.

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 19, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

too much noc in the 4th

was my biggest complaint.

by Jaina on Jan 19, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

too much noc in the 4th

seems to be the daily menu for the bulls

by simonswiss on Jan 19, 2009 5:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Tyrus should have dunked that.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:33 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

There players on the floor in front of him

Normally I would say just step on them as it would be a foul on the player making out with the hardwood, but the players on the floor were Bulls.

12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Jan 20, 2009 8:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I guess Thabo's

5 points in just 5 minutes played wasn’t good enough to secure him a 2nd half “matchup” out on the court.

"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."

by Ugh It Live! on Jan 19, 2009 2:34 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

yea

thats ridiculos. thabo deserved some time, especially witht he way ben gordon struggiling. how hard is it to play thabo at a guard sport instead of small forward?

Chicago... Where giving up career nights happens

by Yibs on Jan 19, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

agree.

Bad move by Vinny. Nocioni gets baited so easily. When the Bulls play a chucking team Nocioni plays to the level of his comp.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

All I gotta say, is that BG showed his selfishness today.

That last shot was one of the worst decisions ever. Plus not chucking up the buzzer beater. I’m down on him right now. Plus the D runs sooo much smoother with two guys who can handle the ball, and a guard that can defend.

by Diz on Jan 19, 2009 2:35 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

How many times...

has something like that been said. But people still want to defend BG.

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

he's playing for a contract, so I completely agree

the Bulls should’ve given him a contract. :-p

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know, I've been told how 'generous' it was.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

BG turned down a reasonable offer

That’s on him. Though, if the rumors are to be believed, the Bulls fucked BG after his come-to-Jesus moment.

We’ll see how it all plays out in the off-season … but I’m not expecting a happy ending.

by drew gooden's facial growth on Jan 19, 2009 2:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Derrick Rose was freakin WIDE open when BG attempted his crossover to 3point chuck

Now, D Rose is not a 3 point shooter by definition. But man, he’s clutch. And a pump fake followed by a and1 drive might have done it too. I’d rather see a wide open Rose 3 pt miss than a forced 1 against 2 airball by BG…

For me, you can trade Gooden, BG, Noce and Hughes… aka the ones that break the team’s dynamics on both ends….

Keep the team focused players. Noce might wanna be team focused and i believe he’s a good teammate with his humour, but man, he chucks to the point he makes me wanna chuck..

And his teenager behaviour towards the referees end up getting all the calls against us.. wonder why DRose is not helped by the referees.. when you got 30 minutes of crybaby at EVERY call.. it gets on your nerves and you start biaising your calls…

I was getting excited last week at the thoughts of a toronto trade…

And laugh at me if you want, but i’d rather have Kapono in the trade and let BG go to Europe or somewhere where he can be the team hero…

by simonswiss on Jan 19, 2009 5:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

if you havent noticed

this organization fails alot at what they try to do.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

BG's failure

to get signed is not all on the organization. I know we will never agree on that.

by sue369 on Jan 19, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If he gets offered more money, it's their failure.

At the very least, you agree to a sign-and-trade without asking for the moon in return.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's like, what?

You expect the one guy who feels he’s been shafted (whether you agree he has, if he’s asking for more money, he obviously think so), that he’s just going to slink into the night and do what the organization tells him?

He did that before and didn’t get the offer he thought he deserved. Should Paxson/Reinsdorf assume he’ll be the good soldier yet again? They did, and the team may or may not be suffering for it.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 3:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Look Ty we aren't

going to agree on anything Ben Gordon.

by sue369 on Jan 19, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Even if it's about the organization's incompetence handling him?

I mean, if you think he’s a greedy selfish basketball player, shouldn’t they have realized him playing for his contract would lead to more selfish play? And if so, shouldn’t they have kept him away from the rookie PG and rookie coach? You don’t agree with that?

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 4:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You do understand how the qualifying offer works, right.

They had to make that offer to him so they had the right to match any deal he would have received in the offseason. I think its clear the Bulls wanted to keep Ben Gordon, hence the offer they made to him. I don’t think anyone, Ben Gordon, The Organization or even the fans are happy that Gordon is playing out the qualifying offer to become a restricted free agent next summer.

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 19, 2009 7:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It is for not seeing it coming.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 3:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Bulls are, like, comparable with Atlanta.

In terms of management that is.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That reminds me, I've been thinking over a Ben Gordon for Josh Childress trade

When does Childress’ Greek season end, anyway?

My understanding is the Hawks are gonna be about $20M under the cap, so they could at least potentially bring back both Ben and Mike Bibby and be in fairly decent shape.

Childress is a player I’ve always kind of liked, and if we’re bound and determined to have a team with no offensive threats, he’s a much better player who’s no offensive threat than Thabo.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Jan 19, 2009 3:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

could they just trade his rights?

I’m guessing not.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 4:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No

We can trade Gordon now. Since the Hawks are below the cap and he could conceivable be a good fit next to Joe Johnson, he’d probably consent to the trade if the Hawks were interested. They’d be far enough under the cap to sign him.

Childress is the one who’s have to agree to a contract. I really have no freaking clue what he’d want. I’d guess a slightly over MLE contract would do it. Similar to the $40-45M Noc got, except more worth it because Childress, unlike Noc, has been consistently above average, a good defender, and also happens to be 4 years younger.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Jan 19, 2009 4:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ah, okay... still don't love the idea, since Noc is still around

but if Noc can be dealt for expirings it might be nice to have Childress as a sixth man (he’s one of the best in the league at that…er, he was when he was in the league).

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 4:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Now

Noc for Childress might work.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Childress will also be BYC in that scenario

FYI

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Does Childress do anything particularly well?

I never knew what the fuss about him was, and the Hawks seem to be humming along without him.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 4:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So that would be a no?

And he plays SF. I just don’t see how he fits on this team…

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 19, 2009 4:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, I don't like the idea of adding him, especially if Noc is still around

He’d be a nice trading piece I guess, but we’d have to wait to trade him for a while because he’d be BYC (I believe) and we would have acquired him through a trade. For this trade to make sense, Noc has to be gone.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 4:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it'd be a nice fit

I agree Noc would have to be gone, but there are several million reasons we should trade Noc anyway.

I look at Childress as a good transition player, a young vet (24), a good defender, and a guy that’d give us a lot of flexibility.

We’ve had some success playing Deng at the 4. I could see a Rose/Hinrich/Childress/Deng/Someone lineup for decent sized stretches of games. And I could see him playing a fait amount next to Rose. He’s sort of like what Thabo would be if our wildest dreams of Thabo became true.

So yeah, I’d prefer to keep Gordon. But I’d much prefer to bring in Childress for Gordon than to let Ben walk for nothing.

And I’m back to thinking he’ll walk for nothing.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Jan 19, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

that was certainly the look that was on his face

while he was sitting on the bench in the 4th. And honestly, if I were him I’d want to be out of Chi-Town too.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 4:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He's

kind of a Hinrich type….

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't

Work much for the Hawks…..Ben Gordon and Joe Johnson likely wouldn’t work well together (too high octane, who’s going to get the shots). If Johnson gets the shots, there’s no point to have BG—since he’s just an instant offense player (or is mostly an instant offense player), and if BG gets the shots, he’s taking away from JJ’s game, which is a big NO.

THe Hawks aren’t likely to play Johnson at the 3 because of Marvin Williams, Josh Smith….

Not likely a good spot for them. Childress is a better fit for their team, even if BG’s the better player.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They tried to give him a contract.

Twice. Both times over $50M. Ben Gordon must his choice.

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 19, 2009 3:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ben Gordon must his choice.

is that like a new “all your base are belong to us”?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 4:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

also

nice work answering my call like that. Right on queue.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 4:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

sigh...

*cue

(right? :) )

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 4:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

that's what the site's for

I’m realistic :)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The team doesn't suck, that's the problem

There’s actually talent here. I wouldn’t even care if the team really did suck this bad

by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 19, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i agree

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 19, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Tyrus was big time today

how many blocks did he have? Hit hit some big jumpers. He’s clearly getting better and better. Noah did decent in front of his dad.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:39 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Noah really crashed the boards today

It helped that he was facing Lee and Harrington, not the most daunting of opposing frontcourts

At least Larry Hughes isn't overrated

by Othella on Jan 19, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

er, make that 20

gotta be realistic

At least Larry Hughes isn't overrated

by Othella on Jan 19, 2009 6:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

Maybe he can play 35 MPG well now, but he’ll play 18 instead of 12…..for Big Aaron’s gotta have a comeback.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 9:11 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

thoughts on the game

Gallinari is a flopper extraordinaire, that might be his main skill on a basketball court
The bulls missed a TON of opportunities, absolutely wide-open shots
And Rose can’t get a foul call even if he gets stabbed..give the man some respect, refs
Ben Gordon had a very off night, and that last shot was awful, but lets not forget who kept this team in games the first half of the season..he’ll get back on track

At least Larry Hughes isn't overrated

by Othella on Jan 19, 2009 2:39 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

All I've got to say is, that shot by BG was just disgusting

That’s what happens in one magical moment when a completely moronic coach and a player with no conscious join forces and decide the game needs to be over.

by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 19, 2009 2:40 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Ha

I’m actually glad we lost this game. Just like a few other ones, it keeps telling us Vdn needs to be gone. What the hell is Pax waiting on…

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Duhon is a pesky little fuck and fits well with the Knicks in that

John Starks/Hubbert Davis/ Charlie Ward role.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:41 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

"Pesky" as in really bad?

(Did it really take someone that long to give this response?)

by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 19, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

duhon's having a career year

he fits that system like a..(put in perfect analogy of your choice here)

At least Larry Hughes isn't overrated

by Othella on Jan 19, 2009 2:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

was the game reallly blown by VDN?

the game is tied with a minute left. Bulls ball, hinrich gets fouled and makes 1 of 2. Bulls get ball back and Hinrich missed 3 pt and Tyrus misses layup. Knicks score. Rose misses layup. Hinrich fouls Du, he hits both. BG shoots 3 and misses. Game. How is that VDN’s fault? The guys on the court have to make plays

by Basketball Smurf on Jan 19, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

id agree with you

except i think vdn playing rotations was off at first. the lineup to end the game, mistakes and all, was actually a good lineup. And i was calling for it since the end of the 1st. Vdns mistake was playing lineups that werent working in long stretches. But also, the knicks went to the line way too much, take away some of those calls and we would win….vinnys problem is i guess playing bad players for long stretches, but at the same time what can he do? Someone has to make a trade and get rid of some of these high usage guys so that vinny can play good lineups longer….wonder who that guy is though

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ya, Pax gets an assist on the Loss

Other things

1. We should beat this Knicks team by at least 10 points, everytime
2. The players have to make plays, but this team continuously fails to execute properly or even make anything close to the right decisions. This is an indictment of the players and the coaches.
3. Our set plays out of time outs involve nothing that even remotely looks like it has any business succeeding.

by reprisal on Jan 19, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

we shudve beaten them

by at least 20 and yea, vinny’s a complete asstard

by Rose1 on Jan 19, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

after timeouts,

the most expected behaviour is a 3pt chuck by Noce or a 18 footer by Gooden.

It’s almost like if VDN says at time out:

“Hmmm okay guys… well, drink some water. Sit down if you’re tired. Try to breathe calmly. Now, let’s try to play some basketball, hmmmm. ehhhhhmm, Del, anything to add?”

by simonswiss on Jan 19, 2009 5:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I have to say the Refs blew all day.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:41 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Ya those "goaltending" calls on Tyrus were annoying...

he really can jump that high guys!

"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."

by Ugh It Live! on Jan 19, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

BTW

I do love the nickname Ugh it Live!

by majoyenrac on Jan 19, 2009 3:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Anyone notice this moment

i think noch threw up a quick shot, and then the next possesion fell asleep and fouled jefferies i believe. They cut to the bulls running back on defense and vinny yelling at noch, and noch waved his hand like “shut the hell up you know-nothing” and vinny said something like “im gonna bench you!”

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 2:43 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

it was in the third btw

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i hope to god thats true

and that nocioni is traded

larry has that system down to a science. Especially with the way the economy is….big wigs like larry coming in dressed in their mink coats and 24k gold cigarrete holders with pockets lined with coke make for a large draw during shift changes.
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 9, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

by Jbasic89 on Jan 19, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe Noc told Vinny to 'hit somebody!'

-Sam Smith

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

so professional

can I expect a fine and a K.C story tommorrow in the trib?

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 19, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Does anyone hate Q Richardson as much as I do?

The fact 6 years later with a different GM, Richardson was still doing the fist- forehead- Horns gesture made me hate him more than I have hated a player against the Bulls this season. I was so mad he had a great shooting night.

by Jscho316 on Jan 19, 2009 2:44 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Miles is still doing it with the Grizzle.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i hope that when Miles dies

QRich shows up and does it at his funeral. the worst but most consistent celebration in the last 5 years. they will be doing it until their 80

by Basketball Smurf on Jan 19, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

it was directed at Krause right?

during the time the Bulls considered drafting Miles. Richardson, Miles, and Maggette all did it on the Clips right…. like 2003?

by Jscho316 on Jan 19, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

don’t know if its directed at Krause, but I know for a fact it started as a clippers thing, back when the clippers had a future. It even made its way into a very cool spike lee commerical.

by chowder on Jan 19, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hes got a helluvah j

larry has that system down to a science. Especially with the way the economy is….big wigs like larry coming in dressed in their mink coats and 24k gold cigarrete holders with pockets lined with coke make for a large draw during shift changes.
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 9, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

by Jbasic89 on Jan 19, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Tough for me to hate a Chicago guy

But, yeah, that fist to forehead gesture has to go.

by drew gooden's facial growth on Jan 19, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I mean that Knicks team had no business winning that game.

The Bulls need to learn to have killer instinct. Step on their head like a pumkin. D Rose is really playing tentatively. Just play and stop thinking. Is he in his own world. Why is he always spacing out on the bench?

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:49 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I thought he kinda redeemed himself at the end there

The Bulls need a better coach more than anything, that will alleviate a lot of the problems you’re referring to

by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 19, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ok Vinny had a bad game I agree they should have played Thomas and Sefo more and less Nocioni.

But D Rose is the the first pick. He is ‘’the man’’ and I understand he had a bigger dude on him but come on Rose was bad all day. YOU HAVE TO GET TO THE LINE. FLOP! Watch type of AI when he was young. If your going to be the man and you wanna win you have to be more savvy and get to the line.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not bad but he should have 40 points and your playing in New York!

Take to the hole every time. He needs to be more assertive.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He should have had 40?

Give me a break, he’s not Jordan.

by BoxingHideout on Jan 19, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Jordan would have had 100 on this Knicks team.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

he had 20 pts 8 ass and 4 reb on 45% shooting

he only got to the line twice, but that has been a reoccurring problem. he is learning. i don’t know how much more you can expect from a first pick at the midpoint of the season

by Basketball Smurf on Jan 19, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

DRose is not CP3 and he's never going to be... CP3 is probably going to go down as

one of the top 2 PGs of all time. Derrick will be a great player, but comparing him to CP3 is silly.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 2:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Who was doing that at all?

I’m just saying that Derrick should at least be comparable in terms of getting to the line.

by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 19, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you were... you made a direct comparison between CP3's game and Rose's

and the comparison is made all the time. CP3 is who we want Rose to be, but they are much different players.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, but you're acting like CP3 is on a whole other planet

Derrick could definitely get to near that level eventually

by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 19, 2009 3:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

CP3 is on a whole other planet... he had the best rookie season of a PG ever.

He’s just ridiculously good and Derrick has a long, long way to go to get to that level and I just don’t think he’s starting out at a point where he can make up the difference. CP3 is just amazing. The problem I have with the comparison is two-fold… it undersells just how great CP3 is and second it puts unrealistic expectations on Rose.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Probably, but all I was trying to do

was point out that Derrick should be shooting more free throws. Derrick probably will never be as good an assist man or rebounder or defender as CP3, but he could definitely score with him and that’s why his free throw attempts should be similar

by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 19, 2009 3:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

in rose's defense

paul was older, and especially after observing tyrus i think age has alot to do with it. Kobe was just a dunker when he first came in the league, he didnt mature until later in his career. No matter how special the talent, the nba game requires players to have the physical and mental tools to play the game as well. Derrick at 20 is showing some amazing abilities, next year he will have numbers that resemble paul’s rookie number if not greater. Id put money on that.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

only 6 months "older"

an extra college season… but frosh-to-frosh numbers were still superior for paul

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

D.Rose

has shown that he is clutch, he is a team player, and his work ethnic is like no other. The skys the limit. We don’t know exactly how good is going to be. We just know that he is good. Nobody knew Danny Granger would be doing as good as is right now.

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 10:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

this is the shit i'm talking about CP3 is out of this world

to say that Rose will outperform his numbers for the same age next year is just ridiculous… It’s not going to happen. I love Derrick and I’m extremely happy to have him, but he is not CP3.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

highly doubt that, CP3 was a good defender in college

and has continued that. Rose was a bad defender in college and still is. As Scotter pointed out in his assessment of the backcourt, guys who struggle with defense early in their careers rarely just have an epiphany and get better… it tends to be pretty consistent, which is worrisome because Rose is a defensive apocalypse most nights.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 3:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i think how bad he is on D is overstated

he is bad playing his guy off the ball. But he isn’t that bad when his guy has the ball and he is focused. He will get better. All rookies, unless they were really good at D in college, are bad on D when they get to the NBA.

by Basketball Smurf on Jan 19, 2009 3:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well he did hit Julius Hodge...

In the nuts in college…so he was “tough” right?

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 19, 2009 3:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

one of the single worst plays I've ever seen

it was blatant and made me scratch my head because he’s always portrayed as being a really friendly, nice guy who gets along with most opponents off the court.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 3:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Key word "off"

He’s an asshole and dirty as they come on the court. That’s what makes him a great player (in addition to his mind blowing numbers, which people still don’t understand how great they are for a PG).

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 3:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

meh, I have no problem with being an asshole on the court

the sack-whack crossed the line, sure. But his other asshole-y stuff I have no problem with. MJ was a notorious jerk on the court and I loved him all the more for it.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 3:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I've heard that too

Actually…..I was watching some Hornets game (maybe Rockets Hornets earlier this year) and they had some Rockets saying he’s a bit dirty or a mean player or something and then the TNT analysts were really talking that up. The Rockets player wasn’t as blunt as I made it there, but they hinted, it was the TNT or ESPN (can’t remember which, likely TNT though) who were adding all the other things to it….

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 9:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Rafer Alston said it last year

He’s had beef with the Spurs as well. It’s a fact, but since he’s a superstar it’s part of his personality.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 20, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There rookie stats...

Are not that much different. Please show me otherwise.

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He is

Averaging 16.8 and 6.3. Paul averaged 16.1 and 7.8. Paul steals and rebounds are 2.2 and 5.1, Rose rpg and spg 3.5 and 0.8, with half the season to go.

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ha

the point was their stats aren’t that much different. And they aren’t useless, you obviously don’t know sh*t. Their are other ways to contribute to a game and assist and points are both good ways.

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 3:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you don't know shit. you have to adjust for pace

more possessions = more points, assists, and rebounds for everyone. The Bulls this year play at a very fast pace, the Hornets Paul’s rookie year (and to this day) play at a very slow pace. Also, you have to worry about how efficient those scoring numbers are. If Rose takes 15 shots to get to 16 points, well that’s not nearly as good as CP3 taking just 12 shots to get to 16 points. I guess what I’m trying to say is… you’re a dumbass.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 4:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

While I agree with you generally,

I do think stats get very tricky when dealing with a point guard. Pace is absolutely relevant, but it doesn’t tell the whole story. That’s true for any position, but especially the point.

Look at it this way. For the majority of the season the Bulls have had three guys attempting to dominate the ball – Rose, BG, and Hughes. So while the overall pace is high, the number of opportunities D. Rose has to dominate are substantially reduced. With Chris Paul, the overall pace is slowed – depressing everyone’s numbers, as you say – but when the shot clock is winding down, he’s the guy with the ball in his hands. He’s making the decisions, getting the points, making the assists. So while the overall pace is low for the Hornets, Paul’s chances at racking up numbers are actually very good.

I think a better guage of Rose’s long term potential is to look at what he does when he’s basically decided to take over. And when he does decide to do that, I think he’s every bit the offensive player that Paul was.

Defensively? Not close. But we knew that.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jan 19, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the issue with that line of argument is instead of giving Paul

credit for being able to dominate the ball as much as he does and to do so extremely efficiently, you are instead saying well he’s only putting up those numbers because of increased opportunities. Basically, if you gave Rose the ball ALL the time like CP3, his efficiency would drop from where it is right now (which is still lower than the high usage Chris Paul). CP3 is lightyears ahead of Derrick on both sides of the ball.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 4:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Vdn

wants to run a face pace team. Rose FG is higher than Pauls was.

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 4:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

only tells part of the story CP3 got to the line much much more than

DRose does (which is how this whole mess started, incidentally), so Paul was still a much more efficient scorer.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 4:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I am puzzled

why Rose doesn’t get to the line more. Is it not being demonstrative? Should he accentuate the contact?

Because if Rose got to the line like CP3 – and by estimation he should – he’s probably scoring close to 20 ppg.

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jan 19, 2009 4:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He should be getting to the line more

Because he’s stronger and faster than Paul. You’d want almost Iverson-like drives to the hoop where he can just get to the line if there’s no other option.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 5:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

he doesn't get to the line because

he contorts his body to avoid contact and get off a clean shot, whereas other guys like Wade / CP3, jump right into the contact. He’s not seeking contact, so he’s not getting the whistles. He’s also getting a bit of the rookie treatment when he actually does draw contact, add it all up and he’s not getting to the line nearly enough.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 5:06 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

well, if he's getting the rookie treatment

then isn’t it smarter to avoid contact to get a good shot rather than take the contact, miss the shot and not get a call? maybe he actually averages a few less points and we lose a few more games because he’d rather get to the line as much as CP3 rather than try to do what the team needs to win (which is more often than not, score in the clutch — however which way possible)?

by j_myx on Jan 19, 2009 11:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I still wish for a healthy Baron Davis.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You think that's a good comparison?

That’s the superstar, scoring PG I’ve thought of. (probably not all on my own, but I don’t know where) I was wondering what you thought.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's sort of how I thought about it

going into the draft. Baron Davis with his head on straight consistently. I think I remember when I looked at closer that I’d like the comparison as much, but it’s in right neighborhood.

by Scotter on Jan 19, 2009 3:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know CP3 is great so you guys don;t have to call me an idiot, but

doesn’t the system he’s in help him out big time accumulating the numbers he gets. Almost every shot on the floor comes from a Chris Paul pass, even if the shot isn’t that great. He has the ball constantly. I think Rose would have better assist numbers in that system as well

by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 19, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

actually the Hornets play at one the league's slowest paces

so CP3’s per game numbers are severely deflated relative to the competition (and Rose, since the Bulls have one of the fastest paced teams in the league). Also, the fact that he can control the ball as much as he does as efficiently as he does is just further evidence of his out of this world ability. Most guys, the more they control the ball they tend to have high TO numbers…not CP3.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 3:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

rose might struggle in new orleans' system

because they run 50 pick and rolls a game and have a slow pace, and rose does not know how to run that play. either that or he’d actually learn it and then his numbers might improve. but as fundamental said, lets can the paul—rose talk. its inappropriate.

by TheMoon on Jan 19, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

A system can't create what Paul does.

The system is what it is because Paul is so great. He’s basically doing what Jordan did. Dominating the ball at incredibly low TO rates, while scoring incredibly efficiently, while also making plays for his teammates.

by Scotter on Jan 19, 2009 3:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's more of he's so good it's dumb to not put it in his hands

The shot creators on the Hornets other than Paul are pretty bad. David West is pretty good at getting his own basket, but we all know what Chandler is capable of, Peja isn’t that consistent, and the rest of their team is just meh.

Byron Scott was Magic’s teammate. He’s smart enough to know that if you have a PG like Paul, just give him the ball and let the offense come from him.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, when I looked at the numbers (a month or so ago)...

…it wasn’t quite as close, but the build, the athleticism, the driving/scoring mentality. Of course, this doesn’t take into account Rose’s inability to defend.

Rose just needs to get to the line more and have a continued improvement of his shot, and I think his offense will be Top-10 in the league. It’s that damn D.

Thibodeau for hire!!!

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

really really wish they had waited for Tommy Thibs.

He was my number one choice for this team given that our guys are best at playing defense (or atleast they should be given their skillsets) and I thought he would utilize them the best. It was either go towards their comparative advantage (defense) or try to improve their O with D’Antoni and hold steady on the D. Instead we got Vinny and we suck at both D and O. Yay.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 3:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

now that may work

Does his teams play good D?

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 4:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

they play offense and defense well

and he adjusts the team’s pace to best suit his talent. Which is to say, when his team is better up-tempo, he does that. If they need to be slowed down to succeed, that’s what he does. He’s a very, very good coach.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 4:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not in Chicago

Lol. So for the people that are please protest with your fire vinny signs at the UC. I’m sure a veteran coach can get this team playing better.

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 4:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the best protest is not showing up to games

and hitting the Dorfer where it hurts him most… his wallet.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 4:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So he can be even cheaper?

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 4:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

heh

I’m all for not going to games. I mean, I’m still going, but everyone can do what they want. My tickets are bought and paid for :-/

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 4:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

touche.

I was thinking more along the lines of fans finally saying, “we’re not going to show up to watch some mediocre team that you cut every possible corner with to make as cheap as possible with no intention of ever trying to contend and we’re certainly not going to line your pockets to watch that team.”

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 4:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well, he's still an asst, right?

And Del Negros’ future past this year isn’t certain. It would be interesting to see what he could do with a Rose & Gordon Hinrich back court.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Even the 100 year old Johnny Bach

Could scare some defense into Rose.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

is CP3 the only person we are allowed to compare Rose too?

and Kant is asking for 40 pts. (see above). he played okay. He needs to learn how to draw fouls, but that will come. its not like he doesn’t ever take it to the rim

by Basketball Smurf on Jan 19, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't care if he's a rookie

you get past this shit today. If your the man you don’t let some scrub stop you. You have to have pride. He’s the man he needs to play better. I’m not saying he played bad but he needs to push the ball more and find people when their open. Find a way.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you should go into motivational speaking

“just get past it, okay! I don’t know what you are suppose to do, but you need to be the MAN. he needs to find some of that dog that luol’s been hiding.”

by Basketball Smurf on Jan 19, 2009 3:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Listen your the number one pick and your on the biggest stage in basketball

he should have turned on his jets and he didn’t. He had one or two burst to the basket in the 4th. He should be doing that all day. You want him to be a Superstar not just another player on the court. I’m just saying he needs to make this team his. You win these games. You can’t loose to Chris Duhon and a bunch of 14th picks.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm saying its a process

and losing games is part of the process. In the last game he was going to the basket against the Spurs and constantly missing. He is improving, picking things up as he goes along. No one comes into the leage their first year and plays as good as they are going to play over their career. I think your expectations are not realistic. Everyone said he would struggle before he came into the league, and for the most part he hasn’t He is already the Bulls best player. It takes time to adjust to being a pg in the NBA, let alone a pg who is suppose to get everyone involved and still be the best player and hit all the big shots. i’m saying your criticisms are overblown. Saying a rookie should just take over the game isn’t realistic. Lebron was taking over games his rookie season.

by Basketball Smurf on Jan 19, 2009 3:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Lebron wasn't taking over games his rookie season...

Wade didn’t really get it going until the playoffs. CP3 was a great rookie, but even he wasn’t dominant. Rose is learning, it takes time

by Basketball Smurf on Jan 19, 2009 3:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Lebron was, actually.

" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem

is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger

by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 19, 2009 3:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the 'bron

is a freak of nature. Since rookie year he has been as fast as a guard, and as strong as a forward. On the open court, you might as well get out of his way.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

my point being

lebron didnt have the skill to dominate, just the physique.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

nope

in Lebron’s rookie season he had a TS% below 50, a per in the 18s (still really good for a rookie) and shot 42% from the field. he was very good, but by no means dominant. A lot of people thought Melo should have won rookie of the year

by Basketball Smurf on Jan 19, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Rose can dominate but he becomes too sationary at times.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i think he straddles the line between

being too aggressive and too passive. Sometimes he is looking for his shot too much, other times he is just passing it to guys without doing anything. I think he has been improving with this

by Basketball Smurf on Jan 19, 2009 3:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree he has the feel the game better and yeah that comes in time but right now he

has to get to the free throw line. That why we drafted him. He needs to learn how to sell a foul. It’s the nature of the beast you can’t just throw your hands up like ’’awe’’ you have to sell it.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

make sure you bring your DOG

with you.

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He took a lot of jumpers...

earlier. That was bad. But C’mon he is a damn rookie. He had 20 and 8.

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Deng

6:15 Luol Deng enters the game for Andres Nocioni. He could have grab a few rebounds and scored a few points in that time. But no plays are called for him. Why the hell is Noc in…. its part luol fault (not really) and vdn.

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 3:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ehh it wasnt a bad loss

it just feels worse cuz we knew we shouldve/couldve won, because it went down to the wire. but we didnt lose the game in the last 2 minutes, albeit the players did screw up bad (especially hinrich who for the most part had a solid game) but look at what happened before that

the refs seemed against us, the knicks got way more fts than us and it wasnt cuz we werent attacking the rim, we just couldnt get anything

Vinny played bad rotations in the middle chunk of the game. D. rose should play point as much as possible, hinrich actually couldve remained a 2 for this game, he was hitting and the knicks arent known for defense

ben gordon was off, on a better day we wouldve had an extra 10 pts from him AT LEAST

Gooden had no passion to play the game, he played with no energy on a team who he couldve played against well

noch was doing nothing but bad, no defense, no offense, just fouls….

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 2:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It was a very frustrating game because the Bulls would do something stupid like a young team to loose it.

Everyone in the Garden knows they are the better team.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i wanted a close win

and a zoom in camera shot on random knicks fans in the audience, cheering on duhon like that….uhhhh….i wouldve loved to have gordon nail that shot and shut them all up….

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So does this mean Gordon's gone?

He’s going to walk does any have that feeling?

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 2:51 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

(shakes magic eight ball)… Outlook not so good

by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 19, 2009 2:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

its one bad game...

it might be different if he has a contract…having said this, I hope we keep hinrich and hope for a sign-and-trade with gordon. I think thats best for the team. This once again shows that if Gordon has an off shooting night then he doesnt have a positive impact on the game.

by rosefromconcrete on Jan 19, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He's actually

had 3 off games in the last 5. As Jaina said below he didn’t look happy sitting on the bench but he couldn’t hit his ass with both hands today.

by sue369 on Jan 19, 2009 3:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i know

you dont have to convince me of bens flaws. Ive been talking about them all season. But people are overreacting. But it did epitimize everything thats wrong with bg.

by rosefromconcrete on Jan 19, 2009 3:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

after looking at his face in the 4th

i wouldn’t be surprised. but he was awful and then blew the last shot, so i dunno.

i always feel conflicted on gordon. i want them to keep him for the right price.

by Jaina on Jan 19, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

is this the worse stretch of games for BG?

I’ve never seen such miserable shooting performances from him. Even last yr when the team had 30+ wins he was making shots. Has Kirk’s return had this much of an impact on him? This is 2 games we would’ve won if we got the normal BG. Get it together BG!!

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 19, 2009 2:57 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

mental aspect

 the way i believe kirk plays better off the bench, i think gordon plays better knowing his role as a starter is secured. I think he may feel pressured to have a flawless game because if he doesnt then hinrich will snatch his starting gig from under him. Its hard to play like that, they have to come out and basically state that gordon is the starter and hinrich is a sixth man for the rest of the season, i think that would help everyone.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, i agree

I hope BG just is having a couple of bad games. It’s just so unlike him to be this bad

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 19, 2009 3:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No its not

What is it with the Gordon memory loss on this board. Gordon has really good games and really terrible games. He played horrible today and in no way was this a “stand out” bad game for Gordon.

Lets see horrible shooting night, ending with him taking an equally horrible shot at the end of the game. Sounds like a typical bad not for him. besides his rookie year, at the end of the game Gordon decides hes going to shoot and thats that. No matter how terrible the shot is.

by TruEChiFaN... on Jan 19, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

if the bulls dont win at least 4 of the next 5

im calling for paxson’s head because really, the man is a joke and has no business managing a professional basketball team

by Rose1 on Jan 19, 2009 3:01 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

i dont know how much paxson is to blame

I agree that we have made some terrible decisions as an organization, but I think Reinsdorf may be the one making the decisions

by rosefromconcrete on Jan 19, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the line to paxsons head

is fairly long. You are gonna wait 4 games? Theres an army that had an 82 game head start over you.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

just want to say

noah/thomas…26 pts, 28 rebs, 7 blocks. Its the knicks, but still…

by rosefromconcrete on Jan 19, 2009 3:11 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I was so good too

But couldn’t quite make it, and saw the score.

Oh well, looks like a loss, so I’ll watch something else…

Damnit!!!

by majoyenrac on Jan 19, 2009 3:11 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I'm sorry D Rose has to start getting to the line more.

Flop do what ever you have to do. He also needs to work on his free throw shooting it’s shaky. Don’t tell me he’s a rookie I don’t want him to be average.

They also need to put Tyrus and Noah through a series of rebounding drills for days. They need to become better rebounders.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 3:20 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

don't care. Did you see how many quick shots NY took?

Too many balls squirting away in big moments. How many times did they miss rebounds and smaller guys cleaned up they have to become stronger and have to clean up the boards. It looked like a leaking faucet.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

We out rebounded them 58-41.

We also had 18 offensive rebounds. What the hell are you talking about?

by BoxingHideout on Jan 19, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm talking about clutch rebounds. Those numbers are inflated because they played a Mike

D’Antoni team. How many second chance shots did the Knicks get? That why they won. Because the Bulls didn’t come away with the ball.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 3:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The knicks had 7 offensive rebounds.

The same number Noah had by himself. But yeah he sucks getting 18 rebounds in 29 minutes. You just flat out don’t know what you’re talking about.

by BoxingHideout on Jan 19, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I like Noah and Thomas I hope they are the future bigs for this team but they need to get stronger

and not allow second chance shots.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 3:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you are right

both are amazing offensive rebounders, but mediocre defensive rebounders

by rosefromconcrete on Jan 19, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i like them both

but they need to get stronger. Again, I have been supporting both of them all season. Ive always been pro-tyrus and noah. However, off rebounds are not more important. You need to do both. And for them to be effective defensive rebounders on a consistent basis, they need to get stronger so they can hold their position.

by rosefromconcrete on Jan 19, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

was that facetious?

I’m a little out of touch with the statistical state of the art, but I’m not sure why ORs would be better than DRs.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Jan 19, 2009 4:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Second chance points?

I’d say both are equal because they create an extra possession. Is there any way McHale can go back to being GM so we can trade Gooden for Kevin Love?

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

from what I've read, the idea is that ORs are more scarce

(hence why most guys will finish with like 4 on a good night) than defensive rebounds. The theory goes that they are more scarce because they are harder to get (positioning, etc.) so if you have someone who is especially effective at grabbing them, then that is more important than someone who is bad at OR and only good at DR because the odds are greater that someone else on your team would have nabbed the DR than the other team whereas with ORs it is not that way.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

For instance...

….you can just leave your man at the 3-pt line if you think a shot might go up (whether it even does) and be in position for a D-rebound. No one’s going to let you do that on offense.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Vinnie Del Negro might

But it works the other way around too. You’re pointing out that a guy can be a good defensive rebounder by abandoning the defense, potentially prematurely. Many coaches won’t go for that either.

On the other hand, any Bulls fan should know that a coach will let you do the equivalent on offense. “Don’t worry about shooting it. Set a screen and get ready to grab a rebound when someone fires up a jumper”. I guess it’s technically “part of the offense” that way, so you can’t literally say the player is abandoning the offense to go get a rebound, but still. The player doesn’t abandon the offense, the offense abandon’s him :)

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Jan 19, 2009 8:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Every defensive rebound a team fails to get

is an offensive rebound for the other team. So I don’t see how there can really be a neat difference. The only difference is the defensive team should expect to get more of the rebounds.

by reprisal on Jan 19, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Team level is different than the player level.

A great offensive rebounder is much more likely to maintain their average when they go a great offensive rebounding team. A great defensive rebounder will see his average likely decline because of greater diminishing returns. Offensive and defensive rebounding are two different skills. Offensive rebounding is the more valuable skill on at the player level. Every study I’ve seen on the subject reached the same conclusion.

by Scotter on Jan 19, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The way Scotter stated it

makes it way clearer and make way more sense =) The context got lost from the original comment.

by reprisal on Jan 19, 2009 4:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, Scotter is better at quickly and coherently stating

his point about stats than I am. I’m learning though.

by fundamentallysound on Jan 19, 2009 4:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, conceding that I haven't read the studies

this just doesn’t jell in my head. Why does the fact that a great offensive rebounder maintains his average when going to a great offensive rebounding team doesn’t and a great defensive rebounder doesn’t mean that offensive rebounding is a more valuable skill?

Perhaps a rarer skill, but not necessarily more valuable. But I guess my overall point is that I think the “rebounding skill” is the same offensively or defensively. You see a difference in offensive and defensive rebounders because guys with other offensive skills take them away from the basket.

Being a great offensive rebounder, I think is going to correlate to being a great rebounder in general. But being a very good offensive rebounder and iffy defensive rebounder is going to correlate with being otherwise crummy offensively. So you’re staked out close to the basket and ready to rebound while someone else flings up shots.

And here’s a 20 second stat scan to show what I mean. Go look at the top 100 guys or so in both OReb % and DReb %. There’s a lot of similarity on the lists.

But look at guys who make the top 100 in DReb but not in the top 150 or so in OReb % (I just really quickly grabbed things in a spreadsheet)
I come up with Bill Walton, Benoit Benjamin, Cliff Robinson, Larry Bird, Brad Daugherty, Dirk, Lamar Odom, Jim Chones, Herb williams, Antoine Walker and Rasheed Wallace.

Now look at guys in the top 100 for OReb but not in the top 150 or so for DReb%.
Jayson Williams, Chris Dudley, Jeff Foster, Popeye Jones, Paul Silas, Tyson, Big Z, Kermit Washington, Ervin (non-Magic) Johnson, Kurt Rambis, Cliff Levingston, Jim Brewer, Lorenzen Wright, Phill Hubbard, John Drew, Cedric Maxwell, Kenny Carr, George Lynch, Bo Outlaw, Chris Morris, Marques Johnson, and Mike Bantom.

I think a couple of things ought to jump out at almost everyone.
1. There’s a pretty obvious explanation for why guys who measure out to be better defensive rebounders than offensive rebounders are that way. Many of them are offensively skilled players who, by virtue of that fact, are not going to be in position to grab lots of offensive boards.

2. Likewise, it’s easy to imagine why a superb offensive rebounder might maintain his superb rating if he goes to a good offensive rebounding team. “Great offensive rebounders” – guys known as such- seem to be synonymous with “guys who have no other offensive skill whatsoever”. Look at the top 20 or so career offensive rebounders. Jayson Williams, Chris Dudley, Jeff Foster, Popeye Jones, Rodman, Big Ben, Tyson… it’s a list filled with guys who did little offensively but play for offensive rebounds on that side of the ball. Several of them were great rebounders all around (Rodman, Ben, Moses Malone, Barkley), but guys like Dudley weren’t “good” rebounders. They were simply positioned to get a lot of them because… they sucked otherwise.

Which really gets to the crux of the matter. I don’t think there’s much difference in the skill of rebounding, be it offensive or defensive. When there appears to be a difference between a player’s offensive and defensive rebounding capabilities, it’s largely going to be explainable in terms of their other skills. Guys who are good defensive rebounders but who appear to be less good at offensive rebounding are often, in reality, better at other things, and therefore taken out of position to get offensive boards.

And guys who look good on the offensive glass, it’s not because this is a completely different skill than defensive rebounding, but because their (lack of other) skills drive them into that role, whether they’re necessarily great rebounders or not.

Obviously there might be a few outliers to this story, but just look at those lists. It’s not so subtle that it requires stats to see. It practically jumps off the page.

To put it very simply, if I were sending a guy in to go get offensive rebounds, I’d rather send in Cliff Robinson or Tim Duncan or Larry Bird than Chris Dudley or Popeye Jones or Ervin Johnson. The reason the latter got sent out expressly to crash the boards on offense is because they suck at other things. If you really have to grab a board, you’d want the former going for it. You don’t usually do it, because usually those guys are doing other things, but on a given play, you’d take them over the statistically better offensive rebounder.

3. How much value does being a great offensive rebounder bring if those guys I listed out constitute the best of the bunch?

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Jan 19, 2009 8:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

1st, I think you're overrating

the difference between the lists. There’s no HOF player on the 2nd list, but there’s plenty of border line All-Star players that were doing other things on offense-John Drew, Marques Johnson, Big Z, Paul Silas, Cedric Maxwell, and another group of guys that started a lot of games. And a good number of SF types that spent a lot of time doing other things besides crashing the offensive boards.

I was just trying to create an easy to understand example. Working at the extremes isn’t the best way to understand this issue. This thread subject started by fundamentallysound alluding to why PER or even ORtg to some degree (ORtg doesn’t have fixed weights) value OReb greater than DReb. For PER before the adjustments it’s something like 0.7*OReb to 0.4*DReb.

IIRC the idea of valuing OReb more than DReb comes from two sources. Studies that show greater diminishing returns for DReb and studies that show a higher correlation with winning for OReb than DReb.

OReb is a different skill than DReb. Nearly everyone I’ve read or heard speak on the topic from coaches to guys like David Thorpe emphasize that they’re two different skills. I think you’re crazy if you’d rather send in Cliff Robinson in to get an offensive rebound than Popeye Jones. Even earlier in Robinson’s career when he basically never left the paint offensively, he was terrible offensive rebounder for a 6’10" athlete. He simply didn’t have the instincts to offensive rebound. Guys like Deng’are good on the offensive boards because they’re skilled at it. It’s not just proximity to the hoop and free time.

by Scotter on Jan 19, 2009 10:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Think we're going to continue to disagree

1. I don’t think I’m overrating the difference between the lists. Sure, there’s borderline all-star types on the second, mixed with scrubs. But the first list is perennial all-star types mixed with borderline all-star types!

Not trying to run you or fundamentallysound down. I was following where you took it with talking about diminishing returns and great rebounders (and rebounding extremes). My point would be that, to find diminishing returns, you have to be looking at the extremes. Coincident with that, if you’re looking at the average team, diminishing returns isn’t going to be as great an issue. Because if you plop a great rebounder down onto an average team, he’s going to snap up all the boards. He’ll get some rebounds that other teammates would have gotten but some that they wouldn’t.

Finally, I think you’re pretty far off the mark on Cliff Robinson. If you go back and look, you’ll see two things about his OReb %:
1. It shows a relatively straightforward decline as he became a perimeter oriented player on offense.
2. When he was an interior player, he was, actually, a very solid offensive rebounder. Over his first four seasons, his mean O rebound rate was like 7.15, which would rank him 134th all time.

Obviously that doesn’t make him a superb offensive rebounder or anything, but still, there have been thousands of 6’10" athletes come through the NBA and he would have rated amongst the better ones. So still, I think proximity has a huge amount to do with it.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Jan 20, 2009 7:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That is bad pseudo-statistical analysis.

“Scan[ning]?”

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 11:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's recognizing I don't have the time or inclination to do systematic research

It’s not statistical at all. It’s simply comparing rosters.

If nothing else… let’s assume everything you guys posit is true. OReb is a totally different skill than DReb. It’s a “more valuable” skill.

Given the choice, and yes, I recognize there are outliers, I’d much prefer one of the guys from the good DReb list than the good OReb list because the latter “skill” tends to be (but obviously is not exclusively) associated with being pretty iffy in other facets of the game.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Jan 20, 2009 7:15 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know it's not.

I just don’t see how someone smart and statistically-able like you can come to some conclusion and argue against statistical research off of “scanning”. Granted, we don’t have links, but I guess I “trust” Scotter not to lie about it.

You’ve done this before, and I don’t get it.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 20, 2009 8:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, I'm not accusing Scotter of lying

And honestly, I’m not even arguing against the validity of the statistics. It’s the conclusions that are getting reached that I have some trouble with.

To be of value, the statistics have to mesh with some sort of real-world explanation. There has to be a chain of causation… to explain the correlations. I’m asking questions to understand the underlying causation. Because without that understanding, we can’t really make an accurate valuation.

Statistical analysis is great for detecting things that can’t easily be seen with the naked eye. Subtle differences that mean small but consistent percentile changes over many thousands of observations. In a way, it’s like a magnifying glass. It helps you see small but important differences.

However, you wouldn’t use a magnifying glass to look at an entire work of art. And if your only look at the art was through the magnifying glass, you’d quite likely miss some important trends.

Likewise with statistics. Technically speaking, how do you deal with the problems (among others) of multicollinearity and heteroscedasticity in your data. You can do a regression analysis that compensates for these problems, but it won’t elminate them. Especially not when you’re translating a binary result of a 5+ man input (a win) down to one man’s contribution, and then trying to divide responsibility amongst many interrelated factors.

And here, I’m just not seeing a clear chain of causation. I’m not dismissing the statistics, I’m simply noting that there are other explanations for what the statistics say. Fairly obvious ones, in fact, when you look at the data that’s driving the statistical conclusion.

The more you understand the broader data and patterns, the better armed you are to understand the statistical and interpret them correctly. They don’t come to conclusions themselves, they have to be interpreted.

Following Scotter’s post, for example, I take him to say Cliff Robinson just a naturally bad offensive rebounder and always was. That sort of explanation jibes with thinking of offensive rebounding as a unique talent. You’ve either got it or you don’t.

But when I look at the data I don’t see that. I see an incredibly obvious correlation between the decline in his OReb rate and his frequent position on the offensive side of the floor.

To believe Scotter’s approach, I think you’re saying that he simply lost his offensive rebounding skill.

To believe my approach, I think you can say he was pretty much the same rebounder, but utilized differently.

The latter seems much more intuitive to me, given everything we know about Cliff Robinson and the game of basketball in general.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Jan 20, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But why can't it be both?

I mean, wouldn’t agree pretty much anything else in basketball is a combination of individual skill, team talent, utilization w/in a team, blah blah blah. Why would offensive rebounding be different? Maybe it’s more dependent on individual skill than other statistics (like D-Reb, assists, etc.) but that doesn’t mean we’d have to say it’s completely dependent.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 20, 2009 12:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

The nutshell conversation I’ve heard so far is this:

Others: OReb is better than DReb

Me: Why?

Others: Because OReb is a completely different skill and statistics show good OReber’s “maintain their productivity” better than DRebers.

Me: That may be true, but even a casual glance at the data suggests other interpretations of the result.

You: How can you dismiss the stats!"

Me: I’m not, I’m simply using other stats to draw a different conclusion from them.

You: "Why would offensive rebounding be different? Maybe it’s more dependent on individual skill than other statistics (like D-Reb, assists, etc.) but that doesn’t mean we’d have to say it’s completely dependent.

Me: I agree! This is more or less exactly what I’m trying to demonstrate. Because the initial argument I got from the other side seemed to be dismissing any dependence on other factors. I believe there’s some skill component to offensive rebounding, but it’s also (but of course not exclusively) dependent on other factors as well.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Jan 20, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The thing is...

…you are dismissing the statistical analysis of the stats. People have run data tests between winning, rebounding, offensive/defensive, etc. and come up with strong correlations.

You did nothing but take cursory glances at it. You can come up with all the different conclusions you want, but if you’re going to go against both CW and statistical analysis, I think you’d want to say do more than that. No?

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 20, 2009 6:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

rec'd

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 21, 2009 8:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't disagree with this

“To believe my approach, I think you can say he was pretty much the same rebounder, but utilized differently.”

And I don’t know where you got that I would disagree with that. I think Robinson had basically the same offensive rebounding skill throughout his career. His role obviously changed, I indicated the difference between his role in early seasons and his later seasons when I posted above. So that isn’t what I argued.

I did argue that Robinson was never a very good offensive rebounder. How did you come up with Robinson as 134th all-time with OReb% of 7.15? That doesn’t make any sense. Most good PFs will have 10% OReb. I ran searches at B-R and came up with well over 200 guys who had OReb% of 10% or higher over there 1st 4 seasons(I used a 2000 minute limit). I did for full career as well and it was again over 200 guys above 10% for their career. I’ve looked at enough player pages to know what a poor offensive rebounding PF looks like. That part of your argument doesn’t fit the facts. Unless I completely screwed up the searches or my ability to understand where stats fit into the context of the league and NBA history has failed me.

To use another chase study. Someone looked at Rodman as a case study for diminishing returns as he moved from Detroit to San Antonio and Chicago. His role basically was the same in all three cities as well. They also looked at the games played with him and without him since he missed so much time in San Antonio and Chicago. They found that Rodman was to a much greater degree simply taking away defensive rebounds from his teammates than he was on the offensive end.

by Scotter on Jan 20, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Robinson

I was just saying that if you compare his first four seasons with the career leaders list, that’s where he ranks. I linked it, so it’s pretty clear where it came from. So what it’s saying if that he maintained that pace, he’d had been fine. I take it to mean, coupled with your link, that most players who qualify to be on the career leaders page don’t maintain that pace. Which is interesting, but I don’t quite understand why.

Anyway, the larger point, which I don’t think you really disagree with, is that positioning/utilization seems quite important. We don’t think Robinson was much different as a rebounder, he was just utilized differently.

That gets back to the point about measuring and valuing the stats. I have trouble valuing offensive rebounds more because I that doing so might systematically undervalue guys that are more multi-talented offensively. It’s the diminishing returns argument in reverse.

The converse might be true of Rodman. Obviously I recognize the diminishing returns argument to some extent, but I think it’s important to recognize what a unique player in a unique situation he was in, especially in Chicago. So much so that it’s hard to generalize. Most teams, I think, aren’t good enough offensively to compensate for what little he brought in other areas that allowed him to “focus” on getting rebounds.

Another way to put it is the diminishing returns to defensive rebounds are obvious. But the diminishing returns to offensive rebounds show up in ways that tend to be non-statistical, at least with respect to the player. It was a rare team that could make effective use of Dennis Rodman, because it needed excellent offensive players at other positions who could produce despite having one less threat to the defense on the court.

De gustibus non est disputandum

by Sports2 on Jan 20, 2009 8:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There wasn't a link

That’s why I asked.

The cut off for the B-R leaders page is 15000 minutes played or 1500 OReb. There’s only 179 guys with 1500 rebounds period. There’s only 457 guys who have played 15000 minutes in the offensive rebound era. Knowing how many people who qualify for that list puts 134th into perspective, and I believe validates my opinion of Robinson as an offensive rebounder.

My impression is that OReb% tends to decline slightly over a career. I can chalk that up to guys being less interested in crashing the boards as they age, and more interested in knocking down open jumpers.

The guys who are doing things other than offensive rebounding are getting credit for the things they are doing if it shows up the box score. And those things are valued as much as or more than offensive rebounding by just about everyone, but Dave Berri So I don’t find that argument valid.

I don’t think that teams that could have used Dennis Rodman are as rare as your implying. Rodman isn’t that unique as a non-scoring player. Quite a few teams have carried guys like Ben Wallace, Mark Eaton, Tree Rollins, and Michael Cage.

The Bulls were more equipped than most. But, they were also equipped to play guys like Steve Kerr that would have been useless to bad teams that couldn’t get them open shots. Teams can only carry so many volume scorers as well before they suffer offensively. So I don’t buy this argument either.

So basically this doesn’t feel right to you. That’s fine, but it doesn’t mean that offensive rebounds aren’t actually more valuable than defensive rebounds.

by Scotter on Jan 20, 2009 11:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I should add that

it didn’t feel right to me initially either.

by Scotter on Jan 20, 2009 11:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'll make the one optimistic post in this thread

Vinny does seem to be distributing the minutes a lot better than he has so far this year. Tyrus played 34 minutes, Noah played 28, and Hughes played 0. Noc played 20, which was too many considering how bad he was, and Thabo should have played more, but overall, I like the fact that he’s showing more faith in Tyrus and Noah. And I take back all of the above if they play 10 minutes in the next game.

Why resort to name calling?
-Dionysus2.0

because I wish to insult you personally
-your friendly BullsBlogger

by Big D on Jan 19, 2009 3:41 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Tyrus looked like Dikembe Mutombo

I was looked for the finger wag.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

why does no one get it

We need a ROTATION. That means that noc doesnt plya 30 mins 1 night and 10 the next. It means that players play roughly the same amount of minutes and at the same time every night. There is rome for some variation, but not this much. That is how players grow confidence and play consistently and thus we would not need to depend on the hot hand

by rosefromconcrete on Jan 19, 2009 3:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Vinny doesn't get that

That is one of the main problems. Look at Tyrus minutes when he actually gets to play and when he doesn’t.

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

I could agree with the total distribution for the game. Maybe a tweak of when, here or there, and then more Thabo less Gordon/Nocioni when they’re this bad.

But it is a step in the right direction. Now if only he doesn’t lose the way and go the wrong way tomorrow night.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

If you look at nba.com and game log you will see when tyrus gets the minutes he contributes. Sometimes he doesn’t but take a look at it.

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm excited to watch the tape for that reason

though I’m not cool with initiating the Ben Gordon farewell tour by benching him in the 4th so often.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't even know there was a game today

I don’t even have to look at the highlights, Gordon, Noce, and Gooden lost this game. How did Deng look? Numbers are solid once again.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 3:44 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

He looked good.

I think he’s looked a lot better since coming back from his injury.

by BoxingHideout on Jan 19, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely more aggressive than early in the season

Lu doesn’t have explosive athleticism, but he’s so long and pretty quick that if he just attacks the hoop more often good things happen. When Lu and Tyrus are both aggressive, this becomes a completely different team.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you got it

vinny too. Not really Gooden,lol

by chi on Jan 19, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well Gooden was 1 of 5 and had 3 turnovers in only 12 minutes

He’s only valuable when he can hit a jumpshot.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I love his 15 footers with nobody to rebound.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Tough to win a game with BG and Noc a collective 4-24 shooting

Not just absorbing the bad shooting from them, but the missing points they usually contribute. But I was glad to see Ty and Joakim both have a good game on the same day.

Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!

by wjb1492 on Jan 19, 2009 3:44 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I drove through Iowa once

it was kinda depressing.

I'm diggin Hinrich's high socks! Thats a good look for him.

by ImmanuelKant on Jan 19, 2009 3:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks :)

I had an unusually tough semester, and with Kirk out didn’t make much time for anything beyond checking the scores at night.

Now I’ve finally reached the point of being done with classes and “just” working on my dissertation, and of course Kirk’s back from IR, so y’all will probably see so much of me that you’ll wish for the days I was MIA.

Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!

by wjb1492 on Jan 19, 2009 4:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I doubt

we will want you to leave again. Glad things are slowing down for you.

by sue369 on Jan 19, 2009 4:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Tyrus is the bain of the bulls existence.

I was at the garden today, and my first impression was that I never really appreciated how horrible Gooden’s D was until I saw it in person today. However, besides the Ref’s, we lost this game because Tyrus is the single worst “basketball player” I’ve ever seen. Dude can’t make a fucking layup! He was constantly out of position on D, is a black hole offensively, and has shown zero growth since last year. It’s time for us to get rid of this guy no matter what or whom we get in return.

by dcarioca on Jan 19, 2009 4:17 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

there's a thread for you

oh wait, it mercifully disappeared.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 4:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait are you talking about Gooden or Tyrus?

Because everything you wrote applies to only one of those players.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 4:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

at first glance I thought he wrote Tyrus was the 'brain'

now I realize it was just a misspelling.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 4:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

heh

nice save.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 4:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What the hell?

The poster formerly known as Freethefro.

by MPG on Jan 19, 2009 4:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i think we should examine this game and really see what went wrong.

-Rose should have a back-up plan when he drives the ball to the hoop.
-During the should-be game tying three by Gordon, that was a 1-on-1 play with the man who struggled all night. At least, they should’ve just made a drive and kick play rather than a 1-on-1 play for him.
-TT should know that he has a point guard.
-Vinny should shave his head.
-Noah should shave his head too and put all the hair in his chin. like a beard
-nonsense

Good game though. The biggest factor was BG. If he just scored then we would’ve won the game.

by Aiafati on Jan 19, 2009 4:43 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Heh

I guess if BG makes 4 more shots and they win relatively comfortably, we’d just be downplaying the big nights by Tyrus and Noah (they played the Knicks! Trade them now!)

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 19, 2009 4:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

When the Team lose, people wanted to trade those players.
Next game when they win, people will argue about players not to trade.

What exactly people want?
Why dont just watch, win or lose no arguments. let pax decide if will do trade or not. Btw even if it urns out to be 5 million comments per Any Thread Post, still Pax and Bulls org, will not listen to us and our suggestions.

So why not just chill out and watch the game?

by spoiled on Jan 19, 2009 4:49 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

agree

but give it to them.

this blogsite is like a therapist for most bulls bloggers.

by Aiafati on Jan 19, 2009 4:52 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

People really DON'T know what they want.

I hate to say that about fellow Bulls fans on here but after every bad game they want to trade or bench all the players that struggled and have the coach fired. If these players are as bad as everyone says they are, then what team in their right mind would give the Bulls anything of equal or greater value in return?

by RunningRay1987 on Jan 19, 2009 4:53 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Seriously though, try to solve this puzzle...

Hughes, Gray, Gooden, and Nocioni should not play.
We need to play Thomas more so he can improve…but at the same time we need to trade him before he becomes a bust.
We need Hinrich out there for intensity…at the same time we need to trade him because we have a crowded backcourt.
Gordon is our go-to guy and Del Negro does not give him consistent minutes, except for today against the Knicks when Gordon struggled and Del Negro listened to the fan by keeping him in.
We need to trade Noah because he cannot score, but when need to keep him to develop him.
So what does our lineup look like now?

  C We will hold a tryout tonight
PF We will hold a tryout tonight
SF Deng
SG We will hold a tryout tonight
PG Rose

by RunningRay1987 on Jan 19, 2009 5:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure you're looking at blogabull.com as some single entity.

There are idiots who want both, sure.

There are also those who want Thomas to play a lot and improve and be the starting PF of the team for the long-term.

There also those who want him to improve enough to be traded.

There are also those who never think he will do anything, ever.

If you can’t see… well, there are thousands of visitors on this site. That’s enough.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 5:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you'd find that there are more people

who are set in their opinions, to the point that all the evidence be damned. Its just that each different game brings a different batch of them out of the woodwork yelling :] The one exception seems to be the fair-weather Deng fans.

by reprisal on Jan 19, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The only suggestion

that i never yet read in any of Team Blogs in Nba is “lets trade the FANS” coz they are the only one not covered by contract and much easy to move.

by spoiled on Jan 19, 2009 5:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Anyway

its not just on BaB blogs.
take a look on every NBA team blogs and you’l find the same arguments about players to be trade and not to be trade the next day.

Its a crazy world of Blogs..hehehe..
:D

by spoiled on Jan 19, 2009 4:56 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

It's called Blogfrica, thank you very much.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

Im enjoying more reading the Blog Post from fans, than watching the games in NBA
:D

by spoiled on Jan 19, 2009 5:03 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Bottom Line

This should be the starting line up the rest of the season
PG Rose
SG Kirk
SF Deng
PF Thomas
C Noah

Bench Rotation
BG
Thabo
Gooden (15 minutes max)
Nocs (15 minutes max)
Gray (7 minutes)

by Bullsfanla on Jan 19, 2009 5:10 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

seconded

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 5:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

wow

this is surprising

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 19, 2009 5:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

huh why?

ive been preaching it for like the last couple months. Hinrich plays well off the bench, and he isnt good enough at scoring to be a sg. I love how hinrich and rose work together when they play together, but until rose becomes a legit go to guy, those two alone will be flawed. You need to have a guy with a killer instinct and the ability to score efficiently in the game, no matter what the team. Its not deng, and it not yet rose, and its not hinrich. Plus hinrich’s combo guard ability means that this team can do subs for the guards without ever losing a step, that is something that is pretty rare in any team sport.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 5:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i didn't mean anything by it

just suprised you would agree to it. I do like Hinrich off the bench as a replacement to either guard. He can run the team well and hopefully regain his shooting form.

Yeah, you are right you have been wanting Kirk off the bench and go with that 3 guard rotation. It seems so easy to pick Kirk after these past couple games. Hopefully he gets out of his funk

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 19, 2009 6:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

BG

needs to come off the bench, he can’t start anymore. He’s either hot or cold and that kills us in the beginning of games when’s he’s ice cold like tonight. He does nothing well except score and when he can’t do that we’re screwed.

by Bullsfanla on Jan 19, 2009 5:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It actually doesn't matter who starts games as much as...

…who finishes games.

But in this case, if we are screwed without his scoring than here are the scenarios.

Bench him – There is 100% chance we will not get his scoring and we are screwed no matter what.

Start him – There is a 50% change we will and 50% chance we will not get his scoring, the chances will have to be taken here.

by RunningRay1987 on Jan 19, 2009 5:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

My logic

hinrich’s combo guard ability makes him better to come off the bench than gordon or rose. He can sub for either of them. And coming off the bench causs hinrich to be more confident and more aggressive. He plays aggresively and that could lead to turn overs and foul trouble, and when that happens he becomes hesitant…if you need prime examples just look at last year. Plus i enjoy him coming in and completely changing the style of the game, i think it throws everybody on the defense off, since they go to just watching set guys and exausting energy on them, and suddenly the ball moves around alot more and these tired guys cant keep up.
Hinrich gets a huge advantage coming off the bench.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 5:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

true that

yea that three guard lineup should only be used as a last resort, most teams in the nba would attack that hinrich vs sf matchup. Hinrich is a good defender, but his physique is nowhere near what it needs to be in order stop guys with power. Chauncey proved this two years ago. Baron davis would probably have his way with kirk…rose could guard him though….neither rose or hinrich however could guard a sf…we have thabo to do that if deng needs to rest….(note to vdn, put thabo in for defense, put noch in for fouls and chucking 3pt shots)

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 5:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Richarson mauled Hinrich just as much as he did Gordon

Hinrich’s certainly better, but he’s no stopper.

Thabo isn’t really either, but he at least has a better chance against the bigger&slower guards.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 7:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Its not about

because he’s either hot or cold and cannot be started.
if he’s cold then Sub him and give more of his PT to Kirk.

But at least VDN should have a Solid starting 5’s every game, and he can fix it by rotation instead of Different starting 5’s every game.

by spoiled on Jan 19, 2009 5:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yea i liked vdns rotation minutes for the guards

i wouldve liked more minutes for rose but i think gordon got plenty of time to try find his shot which is something that bg i think would appreciate.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 5:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hahahaha

Player 1- Need to Keep
Player 2- need to go
Player 3 – 15 – Need to go
Coach – Need to go

Fans- Need to trade…

by spoiled on Jan 19, 2009 5:13 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

do you have any actual insight?

or are you just descending from upon high to let us know now frivolous fandom is.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 7:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the curious case of benjamin gordon

when are we going to add a 7th championship?

by broseleay301 on Jan 19, 2009 5:49 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

haha

now to figure out more funny ways to take that further and use it in some sort of context.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 19, 2009 6:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

his rookie season

he was awesome in the 4th quarter, and now he looks like a rookie in the clutch? :D

by Jaina on Jan 19, 2009 7:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Just watched the game

I hit the FF on every whistle, which isn’t the best way, but…

First of all, I did not see any Noc/VDN clash, which was very disappointing.

I did see a lot of Noc in the game, which was very disappointing. Gooden also was very shot-happy.

I went in to this game looking for this great Ben Gordon massacre on team basketball…and sorry, I didn’t see it. If he has his usual game he hits a majority of those shots. He was not forcing things. In fact, perhaps he should’ve forced more and tried to get to the line. Before he was pulled in the 4th he hit a tough transition layup and was fouled. Maybe that was enough to get him back on track, we’ll never know…

as instead, he sat 8 minutes and only came back for that now infamous contested 3-pointer. I didn’t think it was nearly as awful as it read in the game thread. It just looked like a worse shot selection because he missed by so much, heh. Given the time on the clock, with Lee switched on him he should’ve gone to the rim. It was a mistake, but nothing suggesting he was being overly selfish.

I did notice on the possession prior with Duhon scored that Gordon was one of the few Bulls sitting down. They had panned the bench before and while bordering on sulking, I took it as simply disbelief.

And if I were him, I wouldn’t believe it either. He’s won games for them the past 4 seasons, and is now sat in the 4th? For Kirk Hinrich? I don’t get why the Bulls have a perverse desire to usher Gordon out of town but they’re doing a good job of it. Who says they can’t develop and implement organizational plans…

Tyrus and Noah played very well, I really liked how Tyrus was attacking the rim off of screens. It helps that the Knicks have few post defenders and switch on everything, but good on Tyrus for realizing mismatches.

Overall not a bad effort, they got unlucky in terms of their shooting compared to the Knicks. Didn’t get to the line enough. Some stretches they were running off of makes, which only allowed the Knicks to run back when they missed. Luol looked good in transition (that’s not really an issue with him, I want to see it against a tougher defense) and Rose was solid.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 7:24 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

that said re: Gordon

I’ll give Vinny Tuesday night to declare this Ben Gordon freeze-out an official BaB-worried-shitless™ trend.

Also, it’ll be interesting to see if Tyrus and Noah are awarded for their production. Please don’t prank call coach in the hotel room guys! un-professional.

and…why hasn’t Noc been traded yet?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 7:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

*before I declare this...

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 19, 2009 7:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Vinny's been pretty consistent with playing whichever of Ben or Kirk is having the better game.

That’s relatively speaking, of course – small sample size and all, but it’s been one of the more consistent things he has done. I agree that Ben didn’t have a bad game today, except in the rather important ball-goes-in-the-hoop category. It’s unfortunate, but he’s going to have the occasional night like that – and I’d correspondingly assume that on the majority of nights when he is shooting well he’ll be in to close out the game. I get the impulse to make it all about the history of the franchise since Ben was drafted, but in the context of the game today it made pretty good sense to me.

What I don’t get is when Vinny’s going to get around to this approach with the front court.

Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!

by wjb1492 on Jan 19, 2009 11:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Scotter's probably through the roof.

UCONN just beat the No. 2 team in the country by 30 points… as a visitor. Whoa.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 19, 2009 8:04 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

You betcha.

It’s been a interesting weekend. Maya Moore(See Avatar) became the fastest UConn player to 1000 points by making 10 3s and scoring 40 points on Saturday against Syracuse, but for the 2nd year in a row an undefeated UConn team lost it’s starting shooting guard to an ACL against Syracuse right before the big North Carolina game. What are the odds on that? It was a relief to see them react the way they did tonight.

by Scotter on Jan 19, 2009 11:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

about kirks defense

honest question: why did you believe that it was a big step down from his other outings? I couldve sworn his defense was solid yet again, i cant remember anyone beating him off the dribble, or him losing track of his guy or any thing that would make me think he played defense poorly, or rather “a big step down from his other outings”. I guess he couldve done a better job on the defensive end (who cant) and maybe he wasnt as sharp as he was when he was guarding tony parker, but i wouldnt say it was a big step down. Im pretty sure it was still solid. If you have time, please elaborate.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 20, 2009 12:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's the thing.

Kirk’s defense was only solid.

Here is what I had to say about Kirk’s defense from the past few games.

Portland:

Kirk Hinrich looked really good on the defensive end of the ball. He was playing great positional defense with a lot of energy. Hinrich looks to have returned to his All Defensive Team level of defense.

Raptors:

Hinrich was a very good glue guy tonight, moving the ball, playing great defense, and directing other players on the court.

Cavaliers:

Hinrich also continued his stellar defense tonight. Hinrich also seems to be a leader on the court, making sure that the other players on the court do what they’re supposed to be doing.

Spurs:

However, Kirk’s defense was dynamite. He locked down Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili during his stints in the game. When he was on them, they couldn’t do anything. Kirk’s defense since coming back has been simply amazing. Kirk over the last few games has been better defensively than Ron Artest or Bruce Bowen at their best over the last decade. If Hinrich keeps up this defense all long, you have to call him the best defender in the NBA. Hopefully there is more great defense from Hinrich to come.

Since he has been back, his defense has been some of the best I’ve seen in the NBA over the past decade. Tonight? Nothing special. Just regular, solid defense. Not lockdown and matchup altering defense like the previous few games.

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Chicago Bulls Blog anf Forums. NBA Power Rankings.

by Andrew7 on Jan 20, 2009 12:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

it's always merely solid

Hinrich’s not going to be a stopper on the wings. But he tries and he’s smart, and that’s a huge boost. Luol Deng is also in that class of defender.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 20, 2009 9:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

When Luol

Has a D game he CAN be in that class of a stopper, but I wouldn’t say Luol’s nearly as consistent defensively as Hinrich, nor is Luol as good a team/help defender (As he often forgets to rotate)….but Luol definately has the skills to be as good a defender one on one, and the rest (team defense) is more just learning and utlizing the principles…..so he SHOULD be that kind of defender, but seems to still be reminded of it at times….and that’s always been the case.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think

Miami would be foolish to not try a Hinrich deal involving Marion. Two best defensive guards in the game on the same team. Marion’s redundant to them….

Just my take.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

who's the other defensive guard?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 20, 2009 11:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

wade, i assume.

in the article mentioned in this fanshot, he gives wade DPOY. of course, this guy also gives ben gordon an honorable mention for 6th man, so i’m not sure what basketball he’s watching.

by Jaina on Jan 20, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I assumed Marcus Banks

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 20, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What?

There’s a question that Wade can’t defend? Now what?

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't think

that was necessary. Yes D. Wade is an awesome defender (I don’t think he’s DPOY, but he’s making a case of it anyway).

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

he's not a good defender, let alone 'awesome'

he’s good at gambling for steals.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 20, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And he can block shots

And he can lock down when needed.

What about those. I guess you think Chris Paul’s a terrible defender as well.

Wade ain’t a DPOY, but is making a case for all the things he does to some (not to me, he’s no MJ or Pipp defensively).

But adding Kirk to the mix will help cuz D. Wade can focus more offensively and Kirk can focus on the D end….that’s to both their strengths.

But seriously, D. Wade is hardly not a good defender…..he’s really good, and you are just flat out incorrect.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well individual defense is overrated

And is built up so superstars can have legendary status. Kobe Bryant is lauded as amazing, yet he doesn’t do much besides play free safety, gambling.

Wade can block shots and get steals. He still isn’t fundamentally great at defense, and at his position it doesn’t matter. Teams are so worried about stopping him they never realize to just go right at him.

Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 20, 2009 1:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wade

is hardly a bad defender…..that’s the point. Folks can try to go right at him, but he’ll beat them more than he’s beat.

If a guy’s going off though, Wade’ll do more to slow him down by going off more on the other end.

He’s not as good a one on one defender, but he’s a very good team/help defender, and that hasn’t changed since his college days. He is improving his one on one game, though doesn’t always have that focus.

But to say he’s bad? He ain’t.

I understand totally the talk up the superstar…..jive.

Kobe’s not nearly the all team defender his awards indicate throughout all the game, but he can be that type at any point and to close out the game. Wade is and was a better defender individually and team than Kobe the last few years……and is getting a bit of that respect, but yeah he focuses a lot on offense to the detriment of his D.

Add in Kirk though, and voila, problem solved….much as I think the Lakers could use Kirk, they have a solid PG already (not quite Kirk, but really really close in the aging Fisher), but the Heat really could use Kirk and he’d be great to pair with Wade the next few years…..best guard lineup in the league.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 1:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If you dont mind, an honest question for you

You said “its always merely solid” and maybe it wasnt applied but the way i read it had negative connotation. So along those lines, just wondering, what would you call good or great defense? Below you remarked that wades defense is gambling defense, so i dont think you consider steals and blocks to be the sole reason for being a good defender. Do you consider maybe bowen to be a great defender (despite the questionable tactics he uses)? Is hinrich merely a solid defender because he lacks the physical tools in order to be great (i.e. if d. rose used the same techniques and had the same iq on the defensive end as hinrich does then d. rose would be great, but because hinrich lacks those physical tools he cannot be great)?

How do you see defense in terms of an individual player, and how do you evaluate it? What is the primary difference between a solid defender and good defender? Do you believe hinrich could be a good defender, or is he missing something that he may never obtain in order to be a good defender?

I dont think my thoughts are a surprise, but i think hinrich is a great defender, in fact in terms of defensive guards or peremeter defenders i would rank hinrich in the top 10 at least (i might squeeze him into the top 5 even, aside from bowen, kobe, kidd and rondo, i dont know if anyone else is MUCH better than kirk, but i may be biased). Then again my qualifications on great defenders isnt so much on the physical aspect of the game, its on the mental aspect of the game, guys who can stay with players and slow them down considerablly. Doesnt mean get blocks or steals, but someone who just stays on a guy, forces him into the team defensive scheme, or into a spot where he is less likely to make a shot from, bother him enough that he cant get a clean shot off, and have the awareness to prevent plays. I think hinrich meets these requirements, and so long as hinrich is pulled into the paint, he is a very effective defender in this area.

Again im asking an honest opinion because i like discussing the philosophies of basketball as it were.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 20, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Well said

Piccolomair, and I’d like to know that same thing, but you nailed that exactly.

I think Kirk is a premier defender, nice team guy and avg to slightly above avg at everything else….but he’s an awesome defender and as such is a starter in this league unless you have a Rose, D-Will, etc ahead of him.

I think, and the vast majority agree, Wade’s a solid defender, and is moving up the mantle, and is hardly an Iverson type (who pads the steals but can’t defend). I think Kobe is a lock down defender for at least half his time on the court, but is too often indifferent, though he can turn it on…..

I know PF’s/C’s who defend are perhaps more important to a degree, but Kirk and Wade to me would be quite a guard duo….

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

re:kobe

I think part of what makes kobe kobe is how he evolved his game. He went from a guy known mainly for his athletic ability, intensity and more or less, his ability to dunk on cats and he basically added everything else to his arsenal. More specifically he mastered the many technical aspects of the game. Already a very athletic guy, then mastering technical abilities of basketball (shooting, defending passing, handling the ball) that is what makes kobe so dangerous.

To offer a comparison, take kobe vs lebron. Lebron dominates the nba moreso because of his physical abilities. Not denying his skill though, lebron has the skill of a typical all-star, and phisique of something that has never existed. I figure lebrons actual skill level may be closer to a lamar odom ( a guy who can post you up, pass the ball, handle the ball, and shoot the outside jumper, all with tremendous accuracy) but with a freak of nature body type (as fast and quick as a guard, as powerful and strong as a pf) its domination.

Yesterday kobe played lebron, and it was intresting watching them play defense against one another. Kobe was guarding lebron, and basically trying to out smart him, lebron i think was switching with several guys to guard kobe, and when lebron was guarding kobe it was basically bodying him up and keeping him from getting a quick step on lebron.

Although ill admit kobe isnt as ferrocious as jordan was on defense (meaning he doesnt take it as personally) kobe will always have the skill to be a defensive stopper. I think yesterday his focus was more on his defense and it showed.

I dont think wade is anywhere near that technical level, he is the kind who uses his athleticism to stay in front of guys, and like matt said, gamble for steals, although with his explosiveness its a gamble id gladly bet on.

I like technical defense over physical defense, which is probably why i dont like the defense that bowen and rondo play (which i think is pretty cheap), its why i hold kirk and kobes defense in higher regard because when you watch those guys play defense you can literally see thier minds at work predicting and analyzing the situation.

For anyone who would like to try, during the hawks game, do this this. Follow one particular player on the defensive end of the game for as long as he is on the floor. Start with gordon first, and when hinrich checks in follow him. Dont follow the ball too much just watch what the individual player does, the way they go through screens, or watch their man and the ball, and the choices they make….especially when looking at gordon vs hinrich, i think its pretty easy to spot their individual ability on the defensive end.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 20, 2009 4:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Got ya

And agree. Very well said.

Gordon at times can do a decent job on a defensive play, but Hinrich runs and follows the other team’s players infinitely better (plus is more apt to get in someone’s grill). BG hardly leaves when he is forced into a switch, he stays….

Well done. I’m a proponent of D first, have been, will be, but I see it a bit differently than some here. It’s hardly about the stats.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yea defense is my favorite part of the game

both to watch and to play. More often it is the most technical part, so it requires alot of mind work, kind of like chess. When hinrich was injured i think i had a problem in the sense that it was hard and sometimes boring to watch the bulls games. The reason was defense, every now and then rose would do something spectacular on offense, but for the most part during the lull of the game i can always enjoy watching hinrich evaluate the guy he was guarding and watch his defense vs the other guys offense. It was like a true test of skill, for both hinrich and the one he was guarding. Guys can throw shots at the rim from the perimeter and get the shot to fall, sometimes thats luck. Its better to watch guys get pestered and flustered, thats good defense.

 Its the same with any basketball game, its why i respect kobe more than lebron. I watch lebron get guarded by another guy, do exactly what the other guy wanted lebron to do, however lebron just so big and fast plows through and gets his points. Kobe on the other hand figures out what his defender wants him to do and out smarts his defender and gets his points. Kobe appeals to the artistic (what i would call poetic) part of the game which is what i enjoy the most. I think there are people who appreciate the art and beauty of a persons shot, ie ray allen fans, defense is my thing though. Even when i play, i work on my offensive game, trying to get a better shot and figure out ways to get my shot off and keep my dribble going so i dont fall into the traps that i would lay for myself. Meaning i consider how i would guard myself, and try to limit those mistakes. But i pride myself in my defense, it is one of the few things that i can work on without actually being on the court, just by reading up on different techniques and remembering playing differnt people. For instance a friend of mine always was able to beat me, cuz i couldnt contain him. Mainly because he was left handed and i always had difficulty adjusting. However after playing a few more left handed player (with higher skill levels) i am now able to contain him. Sure he can still score the ball at times, but he has to work much harder, and that gives me an edge, lets me get into his head a bit.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 20, 2009 4:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Matt's issue is public perception.

Hinrich’s defensive reputation is greater than his true performance and abilities. Hinrich often gets labeled a shut down defender when he isn’t anything of the kind. He’s especially good at one kind of defense. Pestering high usage scorers like Wade over a long time. He doesn’t stop Wade, he just annoys him and drags down his efficiency a bit. That’s Hinrich’s defensive skill. Same thing with Raja Bell who get a lot credit for simply annoying Kobe, while Kobe was lighting him up. As an individual defender he’s almost as likely to get lit up by a 2nd string guard as Gordon is.

by Scotter on Jan 20, 2009 2:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

(or an even more egregious example, Tyronn Lue on Iverson)

This is basically what I was getting at. Hinrich can be lit up by Joe Johnson as easily as others.

And in general, I don’t value individual perimeter defense that much, unless it’s truly of the shutdown variety. Which is rare since it’s nearly impossible to fully check players on the perimeter in the NBA.

So any idea that Hinrich is a premier defender on the perimeter… even if it was true (it’s not), it’s still not nearly as valuable as having a premier interior defender like Duncan or Garnett.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 20, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with that last point

bq.it’s still not nearly as valuable as having a premier interior defender like Duncan or Garnett.

150% agree….but given that we don’t have that, Hinrich’s a good to have defender and premier defender at his position….

Having the bigs alter shots though helps out more than we imagine….that’s why T2 needs to play more….

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanx

To you and scotter

I agree with your value of interior defense vs perimeter, although i was more intrested in your stance on perimeter defense.

The way i have learned it, at the individual level, a great offense can beat a great defense. This is especially true on the perimeter end. Which where my questioning of your philosophies about this came from. Guys like rondo and bowen are considered elite perimeter defenders, although the method they defend with is more physical (and often dirty or cheap) tactics. Jason Kidd is still considered a great defender and though part of it is because of his physical ability, his effectiveness comes more from anticipation and predicting (also intimidating and influencing) his opponents offense, which makes him a great defender. Hinrich, like you said, is small, and thus tall sgs (6’6 and up) are bound to light him up. But the fact that he can still have a defensive impact on the game in the teams defensive scheme is what i think makes him a strong defender.

Scotter described his defense as pestering, and as you said he is no stopper, as below majoyenrac stated on the perimeter, all you can do is reduce the efficiency of players. I think the best defenders on ther perem. are able to keep their opponenets out of their comfort zones. I.E. never give ray allen a jumper EVER, or play a guy like tony parker for the drive but keep your hand in his face so he never gets a good look. Force them to go right when they are more efficient from the left, pick at thier weak tendencies (over dribbling, weaker hand, they like to wipe thier hands on thier shirt when bringing the ball past the timeline) and try to exploit them.

Those things, i think hinrich does them all, and with most players i think he does a good job, but at some point physical things will overcome a good defender. A nate robinson will always be mismatched when guarding a thabo or even a hughes or cdr. And then theres the skill level, a guy like wade who isnt much taller than hinrich, but has an almost perfect offensive game is not gonna be containted by hinrich, the only thing hinrich can do is limit him, instead of dropping 40 pts, keep him under 20, if hes a guy who has the ability to score 10 pts in 3 possesions, for him to score 10 pts in 5 or more…little things like that.

In that regard i think hinrich is great at defense, but that is because i value that kind of defense in the light i just described. I want to know what are your conditions for being a good perim. defender. You did state that you definetly do not think hinrich is a premiere perim defender so i assume that you also have an idea what one would have to be to be that, and i was just wondering more or less what that ideal perim guard would have to be…

p.s. if you say he’d have to be tall im gonna burst out laughing.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!

by piccolomair on Jan 20, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and this shouldn't be a surprising evaluation

since Hinrich’s small for a two himself, and lacking athletically for the position as well. Not really fair to expect him to shut down great scorers. I’d say Deng is of the similar class, yet he gets loads of guff for not being athletic enough yet Hinrich doesn’t.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 20, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Deng stuff really annoys me,

especially when he’s arguably done a better job of limiting opposing SFs over the years than Hinrich has done with guards.

by Scotter on Jan 20, 2009 2:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hinrich

Was godawful last year….and us Hinrich fans when comparing him ignore that.

If that stays, then you’re 100% right, but Deng doesn’t always do what he can do defensively…..and I guess we’re hypocritical of him for it.

Hinrich though was HORRIBLE last year, and I guess I’m hypocritical again because I’m taking a blind eye.

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nobody

stops Wade…..Hinrich consistently slows him, as does Bowen (or as did Bowen).

That’s what I don’t get…

Hinrich holds his own. He’s had some bad moments, haven’t they all, but he more than holds his own….

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 2:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

does he hold his own or more than hold his own?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 20, 2009 3:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well he dominates

the vast majority of matchups, so I guess more than holds his own….

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

17 free throw attempts

against a starting front line of 6’8", 6’7" and 6’7".

The Knicks are no threat to block shots. They switch on everything. They want to bait you into the paint to draw charges. Fine. Attack the rim better.

We just didn’t do this when we had the matchups and even had the angles to attack the rim and get fouled. They’re going to foul us even if D’Antoni doesn’t want fouls.

It would be nice to have the fouls actually called as fouls. Wilson Chandler cannot grab a handful of Rose’s shorts without it being some sort of call. It’s a hand check if anything. I know Rose doesn’t like to complain, but when your angle to the rim is cut off because the opponent is holding you so they can stay with you you have to say something.

We should have won this game as we should have won the Spurs game. We lost because of coaching and inexperience in crunch time situations led by Vinny.

12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.

by NBA Observer on Jan 20, 2009 9:01 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

God

I am so happy in retrospect to have missed that game. I had it taping, but looked….I would really be pissed to see us lose to the Knicks…..it really would help me hate this team (which I should, but don’t because they can at least be fun to watch when we’re on…..though we’ll see come March what I think)…

by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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