Addition by Subtraction AND Addition (Bulls/Raps + Bulls/Knicks)

by Unrealcity on Jan 15, 2009 5:31 AM CST

I think the major difference with these two trades from all the earlier discussion about Toronto and JON is that these trades are both beneficial and independent of each other. We get better in both trades and we wouldn't be dependent on one of the trades for the other to work. Plus, you still can move Kirk later for cap space and a back up point if you want to resign BG. It would give us just over 9 mil to resign David Lee if Gordon leaves. Plus 21 mil in 2010 to go after Wade, Joe Johnson, Bosh or A'mare.

Trade 1 - Andres Nocioni, Larry Hughes and Michael Ruffin for Jermaine O'Neal and Nathan Jawai

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=356~2456~741~3441~615&teams=28~28~28~4~4&te=&cash=

We rid ourselves of Noce's contract and Hughes and we get a center (14 & 7 with 2 blocks a game) who would help greatly on defense and would allow TT to roam on defense, which is what he does well. Noah can get experience during the 25 games that JON misses due to injury.

Trade 2 - Drew Gooden for David Lee & Jared Jeffries

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=1717~2772~1711&teams=4~4~18&te=&cash=

New York only takes on $68,625 more and sheds another $6,049,400 from their 2010 plan. They also get Drew Gooden, who I think would excel in D'Antoni's offense at center. Finally, a coach who doesn't care if he plays defense AND asks him to fire away from outside! We get David Lee. He has good hands and would excel finishing with Rose. He runs the floor and can finish! It's worth the money we take on in 2010 to get a piece like this to go with Rose.

Our new roster:

Rose (32) / Hinrich (16)

Gordon (32) / Hinrich (16)

Deng (36) / Thabo (12)

David Lee (34) / TT (14)

Jermaine O'Neal (30) / Noah (18)

David Lee can get minutes at Center when JON is out and TT would then get more minutes at PF. Gray, Hunter, Jawai, Jeffries and Simmons can get garbage / injury minutes when needed.

2010 roster?

Rose, Wade, Deng, D. Lee, Kaman (Trade Hinrich for Kaman)

Rose, Gordon, Deng, D. Lee, Bosh

Fire away.

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Comments

Don't see why the Knicks would agree to that one

But then again, this is the NBA.

by gobulls1124 on Jan 15, 2009 5:44 AM CST reply actions

Knicks claim they can’t re-sign Lee and get far enough below the cap for 2010. Jeffries has a few more years at $6MM plus so this is just a money deal for the Knicks. Without any real assets coming back in the trade, I doubt the Knicks would be interested unless they could re-sign Gooden on the cheap.

I’ve always liked David Lee. If the net result of trades would be Noah out and Lee in, I would be happy. Lee brings "energy " but he also brings talent and points, so this would be an upgrade. We’d still need a legit big man on the team, so I like the Kaman trade idea (although I’m not sold on Kaman).

by Stay Chisel on Jan 15, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions

no way there giving up Lee, I know knicks fans that round riot if that didn’t happen without the name Lebron and James in the same sentence

"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.

by Belize on Jan 15, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions

would*

"If there’s any haters in here right now that don’t have nobody to hate on, feel free to hate on me." - A.P.N.S.

by Belize on Jan 15, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions

Why would you want Jermaine O'Neal?

He’s an injury away from being wanted for his contract instead of his play. And no one is going to want his contract until the trade deadline next year.

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by tominhawaii on Jan 15, 2009 6:16 AM CST reply actions

Did you even read my post?

2010 money and we get rid of Hughes and Noce.

by Unrealcity on Jan 15, 2009 6:47 AM CST up reply actions

Yeah, I read it

And I still think O’Neil should be untouchable until next year. I’m just not a fan of O’Neal and wouldn’t want to throw away next season in the hopes of getting Bosh.

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by tominhawaii on Jan 15, 2009 8:41 AM CST up reply actions

We're trying to make the roster "Vinny-proof".

If the options are Thomas, Noah, Gray and O’Neal, when O’Neal goes down, Noah and Thomas are bound to be given minutes. FINALLY!!!!

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 15, 2009 10:49 AM CST up reply actions

I wouldn't want to give him too many injured players

That will be the excuse to keep him around longer, because he had a roster full of injured players.

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by tominhawaii on Jan 15, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions

Well, he's only signed for two years.

And if Rose, Thomas and Noah somehow blow up under him, then I’d be fine with him staying.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 15, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions

Besides, O'Neal is the only routinely injured player.

Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!

by tyger1147 on Jan 15, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions

he's an injury away from seeing Thomas and Noah.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions

I agree

JON is garbage. Here’s the problem with having an always-injured guy like O’Neal on the team. In the preseason and practice, he will invariably be installed as the starter. The offense and defense will be at least somewhat predicated on having him in the lineup for real minutes. Then he’ll get hurt and we’ll read all season about how the team is not at full strength, and how guys will have to step up to cover for the loss, etc etc. Then you have the morale issue of a loser in Coogi pajamas making $20MM from the luxury of the bench.

Why waste the time? You know what you are getting with O’Neal: a player who is a shell of his former self who is not explosive or fast like the rest of the team we are building, and who will play at best 50% of the games. He is an awful passer who grinds the offense to a halt when he gets the ball. If you want to develop the younger guys, give them prominent roles on the team and tell them it is sink or swim time. Don’t hire a paper mache bum with the expectation of him getting hurt. If this is just about cap space, then buy out Larry Hughes and call it a day.

Here’s something else to consider. If any of these 2010 free agents leave, it will probably not be for nothing. Look for sign and trades and possible trade deadline deals. With $20MM tied up in O’Neal, what do the Bulls have to offer other teams? It won’t be BG or anyone else who will require payment from now until 2010 because he’ll be gone with this albatross contract around the Bulls’ neck.

by Stay Chisel on Jan 15, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions

DING DING DING!

Thank you for saying concisely in a single post the issues I have with O’Neal. Just look at the effect on TOR so far this year.

But his salary next year is actually $23M, I believe!

"As a basketball player gordon is a useless as tits on a a whore" - BigWay (Dec 2, 2008). BigWank, I'll miss you more than all the others. This song is for you, my brother!

by marionette on Jan 16, 2009 3:11 AM CST up reply actions

It doesn't matter

If we make a trade or not we still have VDN to screw things up. His constant substitutions is a nightmare. When we first hired him I didn’t think it was a problem because he was a decent player that made good decisions on the court, but now I can’t stand the guy. What is Harris, Bickerstaff (bicker staff no pun intended), Ociepka doing?

by PricanStar on Jan 15, 2009 9:45 AM CST reply actions

Assissant coaches

What the hell are they doing… I don’t think Vinny listens to them too much. They should be telling him he can make better substitutions . I think this team would be doing better with one of them as the Head coach.

by chi on Jan 15, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions

I don't know

I don’t think they’re doing anything. There’s no defense, the offense seems to be (when flowing) more of the Phx lite style Vinny learned from watched D’Antoni in the back office….

THe assistants are a disappointment so far given their experience. the lack of team D is apalling….

by majoyenrac on Jan 15, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions

I did read somewhere...

that Vinny doesn’t listen to them but I don’t know how true that is.

by chi on Jan 15, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions

it's been said on the BullsBeat, as well as casually dropped on B&B

not sure what to make of it either.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2009 12:26 PM CST up reply actions

I think

that’s all conjecture though….because wouldn’t Pax be in VDN’s office right away if it came out that he’s just not listening to Bickerstaff and Harris (2 very good and very well respected coaches with very capable head coaching experience). I would hope Pax would step in if that really was the case, and there’s no way Bulls Beat knows this before Pax does…

by majoyenrac on Jan 15, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions

Pax rarely steps in for anything

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions

Agree there too

But think this would be one of those exceptions. I mean I wouldn’t believe our assistants are making much less than Vinny…..given their pedigree….why then would Pax have them and the Chairman allow it?

Vinny’s one of the lower paid coaches if not the lowest paid I believe (though likely you’ll know more there).

by majoyenrac on Jan 15, 2009 1:24 PM CST up reply actions

Pax would never show Vinny up like this.

He knows that VDN already has obstacles in his way to get the team to follow his leadership (being a rookie and all), he’s not going to add to that by telling his head coach that he should defer to the assistants more often. (Even if he should.)

by arjoseph on Jan 15, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions

I don't know if it's quite a

defer to the assistants, as much as it’s name the assistants defensive specialists….aka Thibadeau’s)….

That way we have the assistants and they get a happy title that makes a bad coach (Doc Rivers :) ) look like a good coach (Thibadeau-though the players help a bit too)….

by majoyenrac on Jan 15, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions

Lee is a RFA

no way they sign Gordon and Lee and stay under the tax.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2009 9:56 AM CST reply actions

also, getting rid of Hinrich for 2010

was a nice bit of magic on your part.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions

I read something that Lee wants $10 million a year

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by tominhawaii on Jan 15, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions

he has a case, too.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2009 10:55 AM CST up reply actions

I bet WoW has him at $16m :-)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions

lol

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by tominhawaii on Jan 15, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions

Yeah

My problem with Lee is that he’s a great backup who’ll get starter’s pay this off season and his game won’t be as good against NBA starters.

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by tominhawaii on Jan 15, 2009 11:02 AM CST up reply actions

How good is Lee is the question. Walsh cleverly hired D'Antoni to increase players value.

If Lee is as good as he seems with D’Antoni it is worthwhile considering as long as you understand we lose Gordon. You cannot sign Lee for $10 mil and keep Gordon.

by chgobr on Jan 15, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions

Think it's funny that you say from the Knicks perspective on Gooden

Finally, a coach who doesn’t care if he plays defense AND asks him to fire away from outside!

Because I don’t think our current coach cares that he doesn’t play defense or shoots from the outside (making him redundant to our heavy deep-shot offense….

I think the fans care, but unfortunately we’re just the fans.

If VDN truly did care abotu Drew’s lack of D or O, we would see more consistently minutes to Tyrus and Noah, even with the lumps, they give us something we lack considerably in Drew (especially because what he’s good at—15-20 ft jump shooting, we have better of in our guards and SF positions), and what he’s godawful at we have better in T2 and Noah (defense) on the bench.

by majoyenrac on Jan 15, 2009 11:45 AM CST reply actions