Two Plausible Trades That Might Be Worth Making
by fundamentallysound on Jan 13, 2009 6:55 PM CST
149 comments
1.
The much rumored Bulls-Raps trade is the first deal that I would make. That isn't specific enough as there are a lot of variations on the deal that have been proposed. The one I would do be this: Bulls send out Noc, Hughes, Gray, and Gooden for JON, Anthony Parker and Joey Graham (all of whom the trade machine tells me have 1 year left on their deals). The Raps get a somewhat competent (I use this term very loosely) big man in Drew Gooden who expires this year back for JON. They have an interest in acquiring Noc on the wing (I have no idea why), and they have to take Hughes and Gray (starting center!) back to make the salaries match up and make the deal worthwhile for us.
2.
Next, in a chat today, Chad Ford speculated on the Blazers' interest in acquiring Luol Deng in light of the fact that they won't have max salary cap space this summer because of Darius Miles's return to basketball.
Jake (Israel): Lovin the chats Chad. How seriously does the Darius Miles situation affect the Blazers? assuming he plays two more games.
Chad Ford: Seriously, which is why the Blazers ended up making that desperate, pathetic threat over the weekend. The plan was to be a major player in the free agent market this summer. While the Blazers will still have room this summer, their better bet, now, is to use Raef LaFrentz's expiring contract (which is really a sweet deal since insurance picks up 80 percent of his salary) and some of his young talent to try to get another big piece or two. Ideally they'd to get a franchise point guard and they need a small forward. There's been interest in Mike Conley and I know they love Luol Deng. All in all, expect the Blazers to be very proactive at the trade deadline. It's the best chance of landing another impact player.
I'll note at the outset that I'm a Deng fan and want him to remain on the team and would be wary of trading him since he's only 23, has shown great potential and production early in his career, and I have his jersey hanging in my closet. However, if the Bulls are going to deal Deng this year, it has to be for an expiring contract and some young talent. He's not a superstar, but he could be an All-Star down the line, so there has to be some return on their investment there. Here's the second trade I'd propose. The Bulls send out Hinrich and Deng and receive back Raef LaFrentz's extremely nice expiring where the insurance pays most of the last year of the deal (sure to entice cheapskate Reinsdorf), Rudy Fernandez (a very good young player on an extremely nice deal), Nicholas Batum (an up and comer at SF who is only 20 and is already a very good defender), and Sergio Garcia Rodriguez (Spanish comrade to Rudy and scrappy backup PG to work in behind Rose sometimes and let's be honest, salary filler). I'm not sure the Blazers would do this, but they need to consolidate some of that young talent and a Roy / Hinrich starting backcourt would be a great fit and Deng would be perfect out there on the wing for them and they have interest. Any lurking Blazers fan let me know how plausible this deal actually is, in your view.
3.
Finally, the Bulls would left with the following rotation that even Vinny (hopefully) couldn't screw up.
Rotation:
PG - Rose / Sergio
SG - BG / Rudy
SF - Thabo / Batum
PF - Tyrus, Noah
C - O'Neal, Noah, Tyrus (only if they go small ball)
Bench / Crap:
Hunter, Ruffin, Graham, Parker, LaFrentz
This would leave us pretty thin up front and if Vinny can't see the wheat and the chaffe might exarcebate the "guard glut," but in my view, it doesn't do that because I can clearly separate which guys are just contracts (the "Bench / Crap" guys) and which ones are contributors. I'd like to see Tyrus getting 36 minutes a night at PF, Noah getting 12 at PF and 18 at C for 30 minutes, and JON getting the other 30 minutes a night at C when he's healthy.
4.
Other positives about these two deals when combined is that with Graham, Parker, LaFrentz, and JON (I think) all expiring the Bulls would have a ton of capspace this summer to re-sign BG and make a splash with another signing or if BG decides to leave regardless of the Bulls offer, we'll have plenty of cap space to improve the roster and a young, capable replacement in Fernandez (and he's tall!, ack). The big, big downside to it is giving up on Deng when he's just 23 and allowing him to go to Portland and have their fans heckling us as he helps, along with Hinrich, to lead that team to a title within the next two or three years. These deals are basically just emerging out of my desire to blow things up and to get some new blood in here. I like Deng a lot, have defended him a lot and hope he stays, but he's just not making it happen right now, which is more likely than not a function of how he's being utilized by our terrible coaching staff, but he still doesn't have a three-point shot and I think it's pretty important to complement Rose with wings who can shoot the three (Batum already hits 38% from three and Rudy F is a long range bomber).
5.
Let me know what you think, rip on it if you must (I admit to my own misgivings), and feel free to include your own, probably better, suggestions as to how to improve the team.
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Well done
I like your idea. For that, you will get a rec…
Now, if only Pax could do something like this
by bull83 on Jan 13, 2009 7:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Sergio Garcia is a nice player, but
you can’t count on him past the 15th hole in a major :)
I love love love that Deng for LaFrentz is being mentioned, and Rudy Fernandez would be a fantastic piece to take in return. Make it happen Pax.
by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2009 8:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Sergio Garcia? What? You need a golfer?
Its Sergio Rodriguez. As for the trade. I don’t think it is a good idea for the Bulls. It doesn’t solve the problem of interior scoring/defense. The Bulls have enough problems with young players as it is right now and you want to add 2 rookies and a third year player? I’m not gonna analyze the trade from the Bulls perspective because without doing the Raptors trade it makes no sense.
From a Blazer perspective either Travis Outlaw or Martell Webster would have to be moved to bring in Deng. I don’t believe Hinrich is enough of an upgrade over Blake to give up on Rudy and Nic. With some tweaks this could be a solid trade for both teams though. You can have Sergio, but KP worked hard to get Rudy and I doubt will give away Nic.
(Its not gonna happen though because KP has said over and over this year that he is gonna keep this team intact. Something I agree with. KP drafted these young guys who, with the exception of Sergio, have been stellar so far)
"When I have the ball, I experiment." #5
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 13, 2009 8:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Here's how it makes sense
We have 20+ mil per year tied to Deng and Hinrich for the next three years, which puts us out of the running in 2010. We need to either land a big FA in 2010 or hit the jackpot in the lottery again if we’re ever going to turn our roster into a championship team.
Deng and Hinrich can help you guys get to the next level. They’re solid players who will help Roy, Oden, and Aldridge shine. But our team has too many bad contracts to give $20 mil to two players who aren’t stars. Getting a good-possibly-great shooter in return in Fernandez is a nice plus.
by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2009 8:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Responding to your other points...
If you don’t trade LaFrentz this year, what are your other options? To sign a middle tiered FA next summer then hope your roster takes down the Lakers? Trading Raef is your last chance to bring in a gamechanging piece.
And I don’t know what KP said or didn’t say, but I have a feeling this Darius Miles thing will change his plan somehow. This whole season, the Blazers thought they’d be big players this offseason, and now that’s not going to happen.
by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2009 8:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh....I don't consider Raef apart of our team, Yes he is certanily being traded.
I’m not one of those people who want to trade just for the sake of trading. I love the Blazers roster as it is. Deng and Kirk are indeed good players and I would not be surprised if they have both been on Portland’s radar for a couple of years. And Rudy, Batum, and Sergio are a relatively small price to pay for them. Many Bedgers will probably disagree with me but I wouldn’t do this trade. If it happened I would not be mad, I just prefer to win with the roster as is.
I don’t know what we would do with Martell and Travis if we got Deng. Blake is too good a fit with Roy to be benched IMO. I worry if Deng and Kirk will be too expensive to resign Roy, LmA, and Oden.
"When I have the ball, I experiment." #5
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 13, 2009 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've heard the "I want to win with our roster as is"
I said that, back in 2005.
The Blazers have a good squad, but Roy-Aldridge-Oden isn’t Kobe-Gasol-Bynum. Until Aldridge or Oden become a dominant scorer, it’s not close. My theory since then has been “if you’ve got a chance to win a title, go balls to the wall for it”. You guys are close, and Deng and Hinrich could be the difference. It’s not worth it to wait just because you’re partial to your current roster.
by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2009 9:06 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Couple things
1) Roy-Aldridge-Oden isn’t Kobe-Gasol-Bynum
This is true….for now. Brandon is 24, LmA is 23, Oden is 21(in 9 days). Kobe is 30, Gasshole is 28, and Bynum is 21.
I have no problem losing a couple playoff series to the Lakers while our guys get playoff experience (nobody on the roster has playoff experience except for Joel, 5 games, and Blake, 9 games). The Blazers have a shot at something like the Bulls had with MJ. It just takes patience. Our guys wont get worse.
2) Oden shows improvement on offense every single game. In two years I honestly believe he will be at least a 20/15 guy. LmA’s job gets easier and easier as Greg gets better. Ideally we will have three guys who command double teams within the next couple years. Throw in shooters like Martell, Blake and Rudy and it warms the cockles of my heart. LmA has post moves, he didn’t show them last night but he has a good hook shot and runs the court better than most PFs. He has a very good jump shot, he just hasn’t hit it consistently. Greg has shown a new post move every game, he crossed over the Warriors the other day and hit a spot up jumper.
3) Deng and Hinrich would 100% make the Blazers better this year, but they are very expensive. I am no salary guru, but if having those two players hurts the Blazers chance of resigning Roy, LmA, and Greg then its not worth it. Those three are the most important pieces. KP has show so far that he can find good role players like Rudy and Batum. When we are title hunting its gonna be all about those three.
I remember all the excitement around the Baby Bulls. I think the front office messed up your teams future by focusing on the present (Ben Wallace). I don’t want the same thing to happen to the Blazers. I love this team. I couldn’t afford season tickets but bought them anyway. This team does not quit. I am happy to watch them grow up.
"When I have the ball, I experiment." #5
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 13, 2009 9:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"The Blazers have a shot at something like the Bulls had with MJ."
If you’re comparing Roy at all to MJ, I’m stopping you right there. MJ at age 24 was in a different stratosphere.
Dynasties are made by superstars, and Roy isn’t one. Neither is Oden, and LaMarcus might not even be a star. Portland 2008 reminds me so much of Bulls 2004. You’re more talented, but like us you’re missing the scorers.
by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2009 9:59 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I am comparing Roy, Oden, and LmA to MJ
He could still probably take them three on one (not now…but back then)
Only my Rose City colored glasses think we will get anywhere near 6 in a row. But I would consider the Spurs a dynasty. Blazers can realistically emulate them. Roy is not done improving, he is the ultimate team player, he might not be a superstar but he is clutch and will elevate his game in the playoffs.
"When I have the ball, I experiment." #5
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 13, 2009 10:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You have a terrific trio as a core
potential franchise level player at each position. I think you guys are a year away but I agree with YP’s general point in that you cannot take windows for granted. They close sooner than you think for reasons you may not expect.
Personally I’d love to have Rudy Fernandez (Batum as well) and would welcome that deal. I think it would benefit both teams. Portland cannot stockpile all that young talent forever nor should they.
by messwiththebull on Jan 13, 2009 10:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And the Spurs do not qualify
because a dynasty run includes one or more successful defenses of a title. You have to maintain the sanctity of dynasty status by including this as a pre-requisite. A dynasty is a sequence, a succession, a reign and a reign implies there was a period, a period implies there was a interval of time, and an interval is a definite length of time market by two instants, and an instant is a particular or precise time, adjectives include occurring at once. Two instants.
It’s science.
by messwiththebull on Jan 13, 2009 10:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Okies
"When I have the ball, I experiment." #5
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 13, 2009 10:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
re #3
your owner will pay the tax. no worries.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 13, 2009 10:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Our owner would too...
If this team were a contender rather than a lottery team.
" I've looked at these numbers and decided the #1 problem
is that Ben Gordon is selfish..." -your friendly bulls blogger
by Dionysus2.0 on Jan 14, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to see a link for this
Because I don’t think it’s true. Reinsdorf could care less about the Bulls.
by YaoPau on Jan 14, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
JR did pay MJ 33 million
for one last run at a championship.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 17, 2009 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe, but Paul Allen would pay it even if he thought they MAY be a contender
a similar example would be keeping Tyson Chandler even though they’d be in the tax.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course!
Vinny Del Negro interviewed for the job today. I mean come on! Nobody else thinks this is nuts?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 6, 2008 4:21 PM CDT actions actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 15, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dumping mass amounts of salary should be priority #1 this season
Between Jermaine, Raef, Brad Miller and now I’m hearing McGrady, Boozer and Camby too, there are so many options to dump Hinrich, Deng, and Noc’s contracts while getting a useful player in return. Paxson continues to luck out, now he just has to pull the trigger.
If we can shed two of those 3 contracts, sign Gordon and extend Tyrus by the start of next season, we’ll be in good shape, people.
by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2009 8:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
By the way
I love this thread. Rec from me as well.
by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2009 8:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you really think Portland would be interested in Deng
at that price, considering that he’s got a vile contract and Batum is twice as explosive, a better defender, has three-point range, and is younger?
And I’m not asking sarcastically. I’m asking hopefully.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 13, 2009 8:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Batum is in the developmental stages, whereas Deng is (ostensibly anyway) about to enter his prime
that’s the type of player the Blazers, given their current timeline, should be looking to acquire. Plus, they have a real coach so Luol should be very good again.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 13, 2009 9:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I could be sold on that, I guess.
I wouldn’t even mind just a pure youth movement – as long as it doesn’t include our coach.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 13, 2009 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can care less about the Batum part
I’ve only seen Batum play twice this year, and both times he’s been just okay. I realize he’s twenty, but I don’t think we’re in a position to try to develop another raw talent into a big time scorer. It’s never worked with us.
Rudy’s the big fish in the deal. He’s 23, he’s putting up good numbers this year, and he looked so good against the US in the Olympics. I expect him to be a 15-20ppg scorer for a long time. But because they already have Roy at SG, I could see them making the move for Deng.
by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2009 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy can also play a lot of SF
FYI
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
can he defend either spot?
(I recognize he’s tall :-p)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2009 1:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have been impressed with Rudy's on the ball D
He is very active, mobile, in your face defender. He is good at reading the passing lanes and has gotten a couple very crunch time steals. He does have a tendency to fall asleep on his man though. He will crash the paint then not get back to his man in time to stop the shot. He’s not a good defender, but he certainly isn’t a bad one. He has also guarded point guards decently.
"When I have the ball, I experiment." #5
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 14, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy is excellent. I say pull the trigger on this right now. Let’s get it done tonight.
"It's not how you enter your sport, it's how you exit." - Dr. J
http://myspace.com/eme0916
by dfjmed on Jan 15, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There has been interest in Deng from Portland for a couple years.
"When I have the ball, I experiment." #5
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 13, 2009 9:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good to know. As long as we don't have to here any more talk of
“pritchslapping” I’m fine with the deals discussed. Cool sig, btw.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 13, 2009 9:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pritchslap was a fad
It got old.
Rudy has quotes…lots of quotes. One of my favorites. “I saw him in the face” when explaining how he and Sergio know when to alley oop.
"When I have the ball, I experiment." #5
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 13, 2009 9:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Another Rudy quote..
“I put points on your face.”
by escolio on Jan 14, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why dump Deng for expiring contracts?
He’s only 23 years old and has put up terrific numbers in the past couple of years. We have to find a coach that knows how to run a offense in order to utilize him and that would not be Vinny Del Negro.
by LoveForTheGame on Jan 15, 2009 12:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think smart teams would love to take Deng right now
for cheap (in terms of talent if not contract)
Though I expect that the Bulls aren’t even THAT stupid.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Deng can improve
But the chances of him being worth more than $12 mil per year are slim. He’s really only had one year with terrific numbers. His other four years have been mediocre to average.
by YaoPau on Jan 15, 2009 5:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets stop the resign Gordon love
Gordon is not the guy, trade him or let him walk, his services are no longer needed
by LOTP on Jan 20, 2009 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So that we can play Kirk Hinrich at SG the whole season!
Yeah! Woo.
"You remember the first time you picked up a basketball video game and you had no idea how to run plays, so you just gave the ball to your shooter and you ran around the court aimlessly until a defender was far enough away and then you jacked up a shot? THAT IS LARRY HUGHES!"
-Anonymous fan letter, heylarryhughespleasestoptakingsomanybadshots.com
by Prevenge on Jan 22, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would be happy with trading BG for Joe Johnson or D Wade.
Otherwise, no.
In Rose We Trust
by Granny Waiters on Jan 22, 2009 8:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We've got a big Blazers board on Sports2
and were mulling through similar trades. The consensus there was they’d be happy to take Deng and Kirk off our hands for, basically, cap relief and Rudy or Bayless. I proposed:
Bayless or Rudy, Webster, Frye, LaFrentz, Diogu
for
Deng, Hinrich, Gooden (I think we’d have to add your choice of Ruffin, Gray or Hunter to balance rosters, but ok)
The logic there is it
1. Gives you three more veteran players with significant playoff experience
2. It cements your team and allows you to go forward and grow together. Deng and Hinrich will be upgrades at the 1 and 3.
1- Hinrich, Blake
2- Roy, Rudy
3- Deng, Outlaw
4- LMA, Gooden
5- Oden, Przy
Pretty clear upgrades to make your team more suited to winning now. But at the same time, the guys you’re getting aren’t exactly old, so they’ll continue to be part of the core going forward.
As a Bulls fan, I want this team more or less blown up, so I’d consider a deal that moves long term salary off the books and allows for pretty much a complete rebuild. I don’t think John Paxson would do this however.
It also raises problems for us. Can Bayless or Rudy coexist with Rose? Can he replace Gordon? What do we do with Gordon? Too many issues to deal with, and the Bulls haven’t even gotten rid of Larry Hughes either.
So all in all, I don’t know that such a deal works well for us. I like Rudy quite a bit, but unless we could arrange other deals for Gordon, Hughes and Noc, I don’t know that I’d be down with a complete deck clearing (which, I guess, means trading Deng). Or at least trading Deng for a SG like Rudy Fernandez. Even though I like him.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 13, 2009 9:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That second unit would beat quite a few starters of weaker teams.
"When I have the ball, I experiment." #5
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 13, 2009 9:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm trying to envision a Rose-Bayless backcourt...
eh…
Maybe? Like a Baron Davis/Monte Ellis type deal?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 13, 2009 9:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i was wondering the same thing...
but saw it as unlikely
by saplaxico on Jan 13, 2009 10:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
interesting idea
I didn’t think Pax would give up on his big signing this quick for an expiring contract and a couple more young players. I kind of felt Deng wouldn’t leave unless Pax was blown away, but after thinking about it I wouldn’t be disappointed. These moves gets rid of 2 our biggest contracts and go young again.
I don’t understand how getting rid of Deng we get even younger and put even more pressure on VDN to coach this disaster. This would mean fully commit to the young’s and see what they have This would basically be their audition to be apart of the future. More Tyrus, Noah, Thabo, Batum and of course Rose.
The team would have a lot of spending $$ to find the missing pieces in the next 2 years. Could VDN really do it??
From what I’ve seen lately I don’t see this team responding with such a big deal, but it would be one hell of a wakeup call!!
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
by tyrus4prez on Jan 13, 2009 9:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
O'Neal's has a player option for next year
at something like 23mil. He’ll obviously exercise it, so he’d be on the books for 09-10 at a huge chunk of change. And it doesn’t seem like his knees are going to hold up that long, so we need a better plan for the frontcourt because TT and Noah are not going to cut it on their own.
by kig on Jan 13, 2009 9:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
O'Neal isn't an answer to anything
He’s a bum, and that’s why Toronto is trading him. But it’s to our advantage to rid ourselves of Noc’s contract while freeing up minutes these next two years for Thabo, Tyrus, and Noah. If O’Neal’s defense helps us sneak into an 8 seed, even better.
by YaoPau on Jan 13, 2009 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
good point
anything we get from O’Neal would be a plus
I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith
by tyrus4prez on Jan 13, 2009 9:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And frankly,
there’s something to be said for just having a tall, strong, cranky old man on your team. Kind of like Ben Wallace – but he can kinda shoot, and won’t lead a mutiny.
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jan 13, 2009 9:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
JON is perfect.
He either plays at a position that we need help in or he is hurt and we can develop our young bigs. With Hughes, Noce and Gooden out of the way, we already become better no matter how JON plays.
by Unrealcity on Jan 14, 2009 10:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
Just to get rid of those awful contracts is worth JON
by LoveForTheGame on Jan 15, 2009 12:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Another plus
O’Neal’s huge salary we be off the books for 2010, giving us good cap felxibility
by LOTP on Jan 20, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
does anyone know why JO's player option is not listed on ESPN's Trade Machine when you make trades?
Do we know definitively that he has that player option?
by fundamentallysound on Jan 13, 2009 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it'd be a big story if he didn't.
(he does)
The trade machine doesn’t have any player options
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 13, 2009 10:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not trading Deng this season
why bother? better hope he snaps out of it. He’s signed through his prime, at the rate a starting SF is paid. He’ll be fine, even if never completely fine.
Part of it is that I think it’s next to impossible that the Bulls admit signing Deng was a mistake this early, so it’s hard to be motivated to think of ways to move him.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 13, 2009 10:11 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
and the 'lowest value' thing
that too.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 13, 2009 10:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, the things you stated above and the 'lowest value' thing are reasons why I have misgivings
about dealing him and would more likely than not be against it. I just saw what Chad Ford wrote and got inspired to blow up the team, and I do think that Rose needs more shooters around him.
by fundamentallysound on Jan 13, 2009 10:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Unless Toronto panics and wants to get something for Bosh
(we can dream, can’t we)?
by Granny Waiters on Jan 14, 2009 2:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy Fernandez is pretty darn good value though. I think he's posting something like a 16 PER
But in general I agree. Especially since Rudy only makes a lot of sense sense if we could turn around and move Gordon.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 14, 2009 6:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if you had to trade Deng
at least make it for a frontcourt solution
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2009 8:02 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with that. I’ve never made a secret for my dislike of Deng. I’d like him moved, but he has value (even if diminished over the past few seasons) and the Bulls need frontcourt help more than anything else. I’d move him for a guard only if Hughes or Hinrich can be traded into a legit post solution.
by Stay Chisel on Jan 14, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think these are decent trades and I'm edging closer to "blow it up" myself
but I think if you pull this sort of deal, you might as well plan on finding a deal for Gordon as well.
My guess would be taking on some sort of big man (Udonis Haslem, Nick Collison?) would fit the bill about as well as anything.
But I’d also expect a 20-30 win season next year.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 14, 2009 6:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Minus Nocioni and Hughes....
…I still have confidence that a good coach can make this team respectable again.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2009 8:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
And keep Captain Jack Sparrow?
Walk the plank Drew.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2009 9:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A good coach
oR better yet a solid team coul dmake Noc better.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No they can't.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2009 10:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree totally
Why was Noc so positive for us 2-4 years ago? Last year he was a solid bench contributor int he numbers, but slid a bit under Jimmy B and the mess, but was still solid….
Because we played team defense.
Noc has the fundamentals down.
The team’s a mess, that’s why analyts all over (Except those mired in hate for our team on BaB) say teams are calling a lot on Noc….
I mean Noc too is a winner (Olympics—Gold and Bronze) and last summer had one of the most incredible blocks I’ve ever seen (the 1 legged block of Kobe).
Give him a real team and he’ll be fine…..he’s no superstar, and both isn’t paid to be and never was thought of as being, but on a TEAM not on a group of Me’s except for the upcoming PG perhaps, he isn’t performing….and a misfitted team with a rookie coach, the same rookie coach who would be in the development league for coaches right about now….and with a GM who would be “Marburied or Tim Thomased” for his performance this past year…..never to see this club again. THe only thing Pax has done on this team that netted all the negative (serious trade leaks going so far as to proclaim trades happened after the 2nd game last year—where the media after that game asked Hinrich I think how it felt to know he was no longer a Bull and they informed him he was traded to the Lakers—as ESPN got some bad news)…..and then he let Skiles quit, but sadly didn’t replace Skiles off the bat and instead opted to keep Skiles’s head assistant on the club for the year….that was awful as the team tuned out the coaching staff….just a stupid move….the only good thing he did was get the Wallace for Drew and Hughes deal, but he failed to make the move he so desperately needed this past offseason to rectify the rest, and we’re worse off than ever.
I’m not even counting the pick of Rose as a positive for Paxson….that was more a “how could it go wrong” luck of the lottery gift. I mean even if Pax took Beasley, while Rose is proving a bit better off the gate, Beasley would have been more a need for the team and both will likely be very good in a few years. I’m glad with the pick he made, paying off early dividends that weren’t supposed to go our way this early is also nice…..but we need a trade.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I need more cliches as evidence.
Noc is getting old and slow. That’s why he was better 2-4 years ago than now. And the league instituted an anti-flop on your ass rule.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I need more
ignorant comments without facts, given that other teams remain interested in him…and given the fact that both of our SF’s are struggling, and inane comments that he sucks.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Here...
There, for starters.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see
Comments from another blogger proving anything.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
much like what you say
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2009 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mine are my thoughts
given what I’ve seen,
Your responses are asinine based on another blogger.
And then they are generalities with no descriptions.
Think for yourself.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I do. And they aren't based on anyone else.
I’m just too lazy to type up anything that I know you’ll ignore while you stay in your cocoon. I could link to stats, but you wouldn’t believe them. I could like to professional opinions, but you’d disagree and say there were stupid. You believe what you want with no supporting evidence and only spout cliches.
And this is all the same Nocioni whom I’m sure you said started off the year great and excellent and wonderful, despite it being the same team.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well that's an issue then
I’m not in my cocoon, I’m stating my opinions.
Nocioni did start the year great and wonderful and was flowing with Rose, when the team wasn’t playing any offense at all…..
Once the offense was set Noc and Deng took it hard…it took us until mid to late Nov.
I’m sorry that you’re too lazy to put your real thoughts on here….but to argue mine without giving any opinion leads to me calling you ingorant, and that’s what that is. I can’t say well I see your point because you’re not stating anything just linking me here or doing a:
“Noc stinks and should leave the NBA” type of crap without anything behind it."
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
where's that quote from?
i don’t type more because of the overwhelming evidence that can be found in a vast multitude of places.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not your thoughts again
And you’ve been implying that hence the phrase “type of crap” above.
Seriously I shouldn’t have given you half of this time.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 2:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, you shouldn't have.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose I should add to "cliches"...
… “generalities,” “vagaries,” and just plain “wrong observations.”
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2009 12:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No you should
Give an opinion.
Seriously for the 2nd time I’m done arguing with you. It’s pointless.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Noc isn't that good
This guy jacks up shots, and makes too many mistakes defensively
by LOTP on Jan 20, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what happened in the past 2-4 years
well, he got older and injured-er.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The league has caught up
Noc isn’t drawing charges anymore. He rarely gets them. Opponents are isolating any player Noc guards and telling him to attack the rim. The foul by default defense is begging the opponent to attack Noc on every possession.
Noc is the one that has to adjust to the strategies to take away anything he can offer.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2009 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
He isn’t drawing those charges anymore and does need to adjust.
I agree he’s not fitting with our team, but he’s not the garbage you guys think. The dude can still play, I think a lack of team D hurts his game more because he’s not a good one on one defender, and having nobody cover EVER on the help side especially sad because it’s in the post, is killing him.
Teams are adjusting to the lack of team D, the Bulls team is not adjusting to the lack of D they play.
Noc ain’t the sole reason we’re a bad defensive team. He can be good with other help side defenders at his side as the fundamentals are there.
Problem is without anyone helping, Noc draws them into a position in the post, nobody else helps to cover and Noc sees it and fouls….
That’s the biggest issue he’s having.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand the fundamentals you're talking about.
He gets beat one on one. He gets beat when he’s the help defender. He loses his man constantly away from the ball. He doubles for no reason.
So the excuse is that we have bad team defense, so he’s somehow absolved from being awful doesn’t make any sense.
by CrashDavis on Jan 14, 2009 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He doubles on the guy
going to the hoop to stop that shot, and sadly noone switches when his man runs to the 3 pt area.
If we had a post defender, he might not feel the need to double enough, but often he’ll see the man get by Drew to a window and try to stop the easy bucket.
Or Drew will not switch when a screen happens that should force a swith and Noc is left to burn.
He’s not perfect. He’s not a great defender (lacks the inherent quickness), but he’s not nearly as bad as you think and he does have the fundamentals down.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Crah is right
Noc makes too many mistakes on D, I’ve seen him on numerous occasions go down and double guys who couldn’t get double figures in pregame warm-ups
by LOTP on Jan 20, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Still
Better to give up a 3 shot than an easy drive to the hoop.
Many (not all) the issues for Noc relate to bad team D….which is the biggest cause of his issues.
Gordon’s not good at all at switching, and Deng at times spaces there, but other times (When Kirk’s in, he’s better).
Don’t even get me started on Drew.
I think Noc needs to learn to talk more to his teammates about switches (Noc often switches or is forced into a switch more than not, but nobody switches and Noc doesn’t communicate), the team needs to practice them (Kirk has been more vocal about it), and _rew needs to commit to D or sit.
by majoyenrac on Jan 20, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
didn't scroll down to your post, but posted a similar comment
The team D VDN is having them play sucks, plain and simple. He obviously isn’t going to sit them for not playing D, so the only thing left to do is FIRE VINNY!
by 72-10 on Jan 25, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
one reason he isn't drawing charges...
is the team defensive style VDN has them playing. Send the Noc to the Bucks to play for Skiles again and he’ll get more charges…. maybe not as many as before since he’s getting older/slower, but he would still get more than he does here.
by 72-10 on Jan 25, 2009 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Noc has the fundementals down
but Joakim Noah had to tell him to guard his own man a couple weeks ago. I hope your right give Noc a real team and he’ll be fine. Its a lot less likely that he regains his form here. Making now an ideal time to get out from underneath his 5 year deal, while GMs still want him.
by reprisal on Jan 14, 2009 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The SF results look grim
Thabo, then Batum while Parker collects dust on the bench?
Thabo and Batum are the same kind of player. They’re just like Trevor Ariza in LA. Put them on good teams with scorers and they’ll look awesome. They replicate each other’s strengths though.
I guess if the deal goes down I’d want to move one of them to Denver for Linas Kleiza. I think we need outside shooting so maybe getting back Outlaw is the better option. I think Outlaw would be an ideal SF pairing with Rose when we are in transition. His eFG% early in the shot clock is 100 points better. His length would really bother opponents on defense.
And Outlaw can jump. Deng, not so much.
It’s a bad year to move Deng, but I don’t really want to have him around even if he’s 23 now with all the injuries he has suffered.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2009 9:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I think if we're trading for Portland, we might consider Martell Webster
He can run the floor and shoot the lights out, and has a fairly reasonable contract.
I don’t know at all if he pans out, but I’d probably pick him before I’d pick Batum.
Of course, like Deng, he’s been hurt all year, so it’s hard to figure if he’s going to cash in on his promise.
Perhaps if we didn’t force them to take on Hughes, the Raptors would be open to trading Bargnani?
Perhaps Deng would be enough of an inducement for the Paul Allen to take on Hughes and buy him out?
Webster, Rudy, Sergio, Raef
for
Deng, Hughes
coupled with
Hinrich, Nocioni to the Raptors
for
Bargnani, Parker, Graham, Kapono
and
Gordon, Gray, and Kapono along to the Heat
for
Mark Blount and Udonis Haslem
And send Gordon, Gray and Kapono to Miami for Mark Blount and Udonis Haslem
That leaves us with
1- Rose, Sergio Rodriguez
2- Rudy, Parker
3- Webster, Thabo
4- Tyrus, Haslem
5- Bargnani, Noah
And no long-term obligations to anyone. A clean sweep.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 14, 2009 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I like that you think big
Because this is a big proposal. I think it’s necessary for Paxson to do something amazing to shake things up.
In these moves are you anticipating that they all occur THIS year? The Gordon one being something that would have to occur after this season.
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2009 10:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd get them lined up and executed simultaneously. The Toronot/Miami deal could be executed as a three way.
I don’t expect this to actually happen, of course, but we know teams are always talking, so it seems to me that if you can get these things lined up, you pull the trigger all at once.
The Gordon trade could be done today with his consent. It’d actually facilitate Miami signing him in the off-season, because the players they’re moving to us are under contract next year. Blount and Haslem are on the books for $16M for 2009. Kapono is on for $6.3M So the Heat increase their net cap space next year by $9.7M. That very well could be Ben’s starting salary next year, which would still leave the Heat with about $10M in cap space on top of that. Which might be enough to leverage them into a sign and trade scenario with Boozer.
Tricky proposition, but that’d be the end goal for the Heat- get both Boozer and Gordon.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 14, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I don't know about Webster
He seems like just a jumpshooter, and not a particularly good one. Give me Outlaw instead, who can do a little more all-around while shooting the same percentages as Webster and has shown clutch abilities. I’d still take Rudy over either, though.
by YaoPau on Jan 14, 2009 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I'd want one of Outlaw/Webster + Rudy
If I were trading Deng
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 14, 2009 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Heat aren't giving up Haslem right now
They have a chance to make the playoffs with him, and without him they have no more height, as Gordon’s small, and Gray won’t sniff any time on a well oiled GM machine with Wade…..
I think the Heat would like Gordon quite a bit, even if he and Wade can be a turnover waiting to happen, but given their lack of size, they’d need a real big in place of Udonis….
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They could always give Joel Anthony Haslem's minutes and Gray Anthony's (about 18.5) minutes
Haslem is the same size as Anthony and hasn’t been playing all that well the last couple seasons anyways. Being a well run organization, I’m sure they’d recognize they have little chance getting past the first round this year and that it’d be worth a maybe dropping from 6 seed to 8 seed at worse to clear further cap space for the summer.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jan 14, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's serviceable enough to be Tyrus's back up, expires for 2010, and makes the money work
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jan 14, 2009 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah Haslem
Ain’t a bad guy to have. He wouldn’t make us awesome, but he won’t hurt.
Problem is Haslem would come here and folks would deride him for being the new Noc because of his salary off the bench…and I’d worry Vinny would start him over Tyrus either way because Haslem’s a guy who while he won’t kill you, he won’t hurt you either, and he’s even more a jump shooting PF that Vinny seems to want (Even if it’s the antithesis of what we need).
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why should Paxson care if Haslem is derided as the new Noc if the deal helps the team?
Anyways, the fact that Haslem’s contract expires for 2010 would make him much more endearing than Noc. Unless, of course, VDN starts him over Tyrus. But, that would be just yet another reason to fire Vinny (and Pax if he let Vinny get away w/ starting Haslem over Tyrus).
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jan 14, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And I fear that VDN
Would play Haslem as our starter because while he’s not great, he’s consistent.
I also don’t think the Heat are giving him up unless they get a serviceable replacement.
WHile Haslem shouldn’t be a deal breaker and wouldn’t presuming they make the playoffs this year, next year….I think given that they are rebounding from the 15 win year into the playoffs, I don’t think Haslem’s going without the PF replacement, unless maybe they get Kirk and Noc.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They wouldn't want Kirk and Noc as that'd kill their cap space for next year
oh, and still doesn’t solve the problem of being down even one more big man. Even if they stick w/ what they have and/or pursue Boozer in the offseason, they’re going to need a long term answer for C. This at least helps them open some more cap space to potentially find that answer and/or lure Boozer.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jan 14, 2009 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but
Kirk will help their PG spot, Noc will replace Haslem’s loss to a degree.
Yes they still need a C long term, but Riley’s been good enough getting scrubs int eh draft to outperform…..and with D. Wade they still won’t have the needs.
I think if they could nab Kirk and Noc and only lose Haslem and Blount and maybe another crap filler piece, there’d be no question they’d do it. Both Kirk and Noc are more old school Riley type players…I know the Bulls wouldn’t want this, but there’s no way Miami would not move on it..
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
BG's a better option to play next to Wade than Kirk is
And probably won’t cost all that much more. How will Noc replace Haslem in any way? Haslem gets most of his minutes at the 5. Right now, they’ve got Marion and Beasley who can each play the 3 and the 4. They also have James Jones who can play the 3. If this deal goes down, they also have Kapono to play the 3. What need does Noc fill?
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jan 14, 2009 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
i like the instant offense approach, but Wade doesn’t want to have PG duties (though he can play the point ok). THey both are turnover prone and have to worry a bit about a new Nuggets-y thing of Wade and Gordon marginalling each other out….a bit.
Haslem gets most his minutes TODAY at the 5, but that’s a temporary fix. Marion’s not in the long term plans there at all. Noc will be a nice fill in for Beasely who can play the 3 and the 4 as the starter.
Kapono can’t really play besides shoot (though he is lights out).
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure where you saw that Wade doesn't want PG duties
But, Wade has the ball in his hands a vast majority of his time on the court. BG’s a good scorer but a great shooter who should thrive even more next to Wade then he’s currently next to Rose. Gordon’s a complement, hence BG-Wade would not even be close to the 2 isolation players who don’t mesh thing AI and Melo had.
Anyways, you object to Sports2’s trade b/c Haslem’s too valuable to the Heat as a C right now. Then you propose that if the Heat got Noc instead, it’d be ok b/c Haslem can be replaced and isn’t a long term answer at the 5. Dare I ask, which one is it?
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jan 14, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've followed Wade a long time
And I’ve heard Espn often say that Wade does not want to be the PG, he wants the play more off the ball.
I also would worry if I was Riley that Wade and Gordon (2 guys needing the ball often for pts) would offset each other a bit much.
I wasn’t saying they flip Noc for Haslem and they’d be happy, I was saying perhaps they’d take the 5 risk with Noc if HINRICH was included. Hinrich the defender, the solid but not spectacular PG would be an ideal counterpart to Wade (allowing Wade to focus less on D than he’s doing because Kirk is so good there—and Wade and Kirk would be quite the guard duo).
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich from a couple years ago would be a better fit than BG
But after last season, there’s still an open question of Hinrich being the defender he was? That makes him a bigger risk and not worth taking on Noc for if even worth giving up Haslem for.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jan 14, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
I think Gordon is a great to have with Rose (GOrdon the shooter/scorer, Rose the slasher/finisher/facilitator)….And if Rose gets better defensively (Which I am pretty certain he will) we’ll be good enough defensively. Rose should be athletic enough to lock down the PG’s and Gordon’s proving he’s avg at defense….not Kirk though.
I think Kirk ain’t bad as a role playing 2 guard sure, I get that, but Gordon’s instant offense and true 2 guard skills will be better served. RIght now the Kirk of 2 years ago might seem better because Rose is playing rookie esque D, but in hopefully 1-2 years at most that’ll change and we’ll want the scoring of Gordon.
I don’t think there’s a huge question on Kirk’s D after what he’s proving again in preseason and the few games this year. I think last year was just a mess overall and Kirk fell victim to it. I think the question on Kirk is mostly with the fans, not quite those in the know….though who knows.
I mean if there were questions on Kirk, I doubt we’d hear any rumours and he was strong on the rumour mill in Sept/Oct, but Pax came out publicly and said he didn’t want to trade him and wanted Kirk to help ease Rose (maybe Pax was hoping for Rose’s spurt play to happen in January, rather than in Nov-Dec…
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 4:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
people care less about noc's amount per year off the bench...
…and more about the years
it should have been max of 3 years, not five. if it were 3, he’d be expiring in 2010
nocioni isn’t good at basketball right now. there’s reason to believe (even if you think it’s the team) that it won’t get better. a year and a half of that is easier to stomach than 3 1/2 years.
Viva la nuance! Reading comprehension rules!!!
by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2009 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and that's why
i think noc is currently untradeable. if he was playing good somebody might take a chance on him, but he’s not, he’s not even starting on the lowly bulls, and with all the teams clearing up space for 2010 nobody is gonna want that contract. unless it’s crap for crap or packaged with a lot of good stuff.
yeah i know, a contender might be looking to add a winner, a glue guy, a gritty player, all true, but nobody has actually the cap space to stomach noc. maybe dallas, they seem to make all the crazy trades, so who knows.
by grillo on Jan 26, 2009 12:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad the Toronto announcers
are not also the GM, or we could trade Noc to the Raps for a good player.
The season is lost, blow the team up.
by Granny Waiters on Jan 26, 2009 6:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it was kinda a rhetorical question
it’s just that you made haslem seem soooo attractive in your statement. :D
by Jaina on Jan 14, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
But Anthony ain’t as weathered as Haslem. Haslem’s no stud player or anything, but he knows his role and is more effective than the stats would indicate. He’s a great role player and is manning the fort. The Heat would want at least a decent PF/C in a trade for their undersized C who is an effective, if unglorified PF too.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Haslem's nice, but likely not a deal breaker. See Sports2's post for directions the Heat could move to replace him
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Jan 14, 2009 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They'd do one of two things
1. They could make a play for Boozer now using Marion. That’d settle things for Utah while still giving them immediate help in the playoffs, and they could get Boozer back for the playoffs. It’d be risky for them, but it’d also give them Boozer’s Bird rights, thereby allowing them to exceed the cap to sign him.
2. They could simply push Marion to the 4 and start Beasley at the 3, which would make pretty decent sense. Yes, they’d be small, but they’d be very interesting fielding a Marion/Beasley/Wade/Gordon/Random Big Man lineup.
De gustibus non est disputandum
by Sports2 on Jan 14, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They've been making
the play for Boozer for a while…..and dangling the definately going to expire Marion ain’t working.
I’m rather surprised because imagine a D-Will-Marion-AK47-Millsap-Okur lineup….athletic, big, full of shooters, no shooting guards (Brewer’s a great option though from the bench and Korver can shoot), but having two of the better run the floor defenders in AK47 and Marion together would change that team….the Jazz are a good team in need of a major gamble….and this would be the major gamble they try for the 1 year, if it fails it fails, they keep Millsap and move on, but with DWill pushing the floor to the great in the open court Marion, and all their shooters and the very versatile Kirilenko, why not give it a try. They aren’t winning it all as they’re currently constructed…..I like Marion a lot last year for them in teh AK47-Marion swap rumours, but keeping ‘em both would be even more exciting, and a fairly low risk gamble….in that it’ll give them the option to resign Millsap, because otherwise Millsap might be out the door followed int he next year by the hurt Boozer.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Marion at the 2
Hmm.
It’s not like Brewer gives them outstanding shooting options at the 2. What would they stand to lose in placing Marion there?
12/31: Fire Vinny Del Negro.
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2009 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just a trial
He’s not a pefect 2 by any stretch, but they can change the offense a bit given Deron’s awesome offensive driving skills, and Marion would be great on the break, with AK47 too’s fantastic passing skills.
I like Marion matched at the 2 more so that he and Andrei can collapse defensively…
Either way the trade gives them the 1 shot last chance splash that if it works, hell yeah they tried something and it was different but worked (and I think it DEFINATELY could). If it doesn’t? Well they get the money for Millsap and invest in him for the long term 4 spot (they won’t keep both, and while Boozer said he’d opt out that’s before his injury bug came back)…..I don’t think he will unless he takes over in the 2nd half…
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Helps too
That Sloan’s a great coach and could make it work.
The athleticism and D of this bunch will more than makeup for the loss of the injured Boozer, and it’s a trial run for maybe the move to put ’em over the top or the move that gives them flexibility to sign Millsap.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Toronto just traded for Calderon
do they really want Hinrich?
by reprisal on Jan 14, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they didn't just trade for calderon
they traded tj ford to make way for calderon as their starter.
by Jaina on Jan 14, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No way Blazers give up Rudy and Webster for
any trade involving Hughes.
"When I have the ball, I experiment." #5
by Sabonis4Ever on Jan 14, 2009 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like #2 a bit
Though I didn’t see Noc in your trade list and he surely would get time….
But still if we’re including Deng for an expiring, let’s swap him for Marion….higher expiring and better player.
I think it’s best to hang onto Deng, his value is unusually low for him and he’ll be productive….
Option 1 is alright, but JON is booked through next year….though we’ve already discussed that.
Nice job on the 2nd trade though….I just don’t think we win in that deal. I mean maybe if we magically get Millsap and are able to keep Gordon, then hell yeah we’d have the PG, the wing and the inside player we need), but I think Marion’s a better chance at that….or who knows we could keep Marion too.
by majoyenrac on Jan 14, 2009 9:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
HUGE
I like this trade, it could even allow thomas to follow his heart’s desire and play SF-
starting JO, Noah, Thomas, Rudy, and Rose- OMG we’d be so big!!!
by ajc53 on Jan 14, 2009 3:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
As a fan of both the Blazers and Bulls, I'd really like to see the following:
Trout, Sergio, Channing, RLEC, Ike, Shavlik
for
Hinrich, Deng, Nocioni
Blazers upgrade in both the short and long-term at PG & SF.
Bulls get tons of cap space for 2010, go after Amare/Bosh AND Wade/J-Johnson.
by fizertime on Jan 15, 2009 2:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
why would we pretty much be giving up the best 2 players in this trade?
by Jaina on Jan 15, 2009 8:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
the other team should always give up their good players for OUR crap
by bullschwaa on Jan 15, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm not one of those
who expects to get back an all star for larry hughes. and it’d be one thing if we were giving up the best player in the trade but we are arguably giving up the TWO best guys in the trade. way too one sided.
by Jaina on Jan 15, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
because the Bulls get back the ability to sign another Max FA in 2010
by fizertime on Jan 15, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and then what happens when no one wants to sign with us?
i don’t want to bank on 2010, thanks.
by Jaina on Jan 15, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And you'd rather bank on Deng and Hinrich turning into stars?
I’d say 2010 is a muchhh safer bet.
by YaoPau on Jan 15, 2009 5:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i'm on board with keeping deng
but i think hinrich will have to go after the season. i just think for those 2 guys, we could get something better than travis outlaw and channing frye.
by Jaina on Jan 15, 2009 11:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather bank on 2010
Chicago is still a big market, and players will come to play w/ Rose
by LOTP on Jan 20, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
One Problem I see with making any trade with Deng
Is the fact that he’s BYC, and that complicates everything. It might be much easier for the Blazers to wait until the off-season, even with LaFrentz no longer a trade chip, to get Deng.
Read this if you really want to know what BYC is.
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. It's simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get tangled, you tango on
by pookeyguru on Jan 19, 2009 10:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
hes right
i was just gonna point that out.
I know the noc discussion was up a while, but i didnt have the patience to finish it. Anyway, whoever said that hes terrible is right. I dont have the energy to look up more detailed stats, but his per is 11.2. Thats is not good and it doesnt take into account his terrible defense. Also, that trade that got rid of almost our entire roster is ridiculous and impossible.
Also, noc is a terrible team defender. Double teaming players doesnt make you a good team defender. He randomly leaves his man and is completely undisciplined. I know people like him for his effort, but he is entirely too aggressive and the so called adjusting to him taking charges is overstated. He lost a step and is unable to get into position quick enough…that, coupled with his aggressiveness, results in his high foul rate. He should NEVER play more than 15 minutes in a game…even if hes hot. The “playing the hot hand” style of coaching is self-fulfilling in that players play more selfishly and put too much pressure on themselves to earn minutes on a game-by-game basis. Thus, we see inconsistent play and are required to hope for a hot hand
by rosefromconcrete on Jan 19, 2009 11:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
right
and that’s why this probably won’t happen. but this is indeed the way to go, if you want flexibility and cap space. not necessarily deng, but you have to trade your big players, big contracts, for expirings, crap and young. that’s how it works for everybody. gooden is expiring, is a good chip, but only if you want to take a somewhat better, maybe younger player signed to a longer deal. since the bulls have already clearly stated they won’t do that they’re already better off with letting gooden and hughes expire.
by grillo on Jan 25, 2009 8:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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