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Bulls/Magic trade idea

I think this is a perfect trade for both sides.  Bulls trade Hinrich and Thabo, and maybe a 2nd round pick to the Orlando Magic for Hedo Turkoglu, JJ Reddick, and Brian Cook.

Why this works: Orlando.

Orlando is a solid team but really is missing a solid PG to bring them over the hump.  Captain Kirk really is a solid PG and will prove it again actually playing with guys who can play inside.  Folks forget that Kirk was the starting PG for the FIBA team 2 years ago and did quite well playing with guys who can score inside. His contract looks rough but improves over the remaining years.....Orlando is so capped out due to Rashard Lewis's ridiculously mammoth contract that they need the help they can get.  Having Lewis-Howard-Hinrich is a great trio for them.  They also add in Thabo a guy who I think is a better version of Pietrus.  They'll have a defensive ace in the SG/SF spots for all 48 minutes rotating Thabo with Pietrus too.  I think this is fabulous. They give up on a player that they will likely lose after this season for nothing (Hedo who has a player option and is a very affordable salary at $6.8M).  THey give up on Reddick who's a bust and won't play either way.  And they give away a bad contract in Cook, who was never worth his $3-3.5M salary.  I think this definately improves them.  Orlando also needs to put the pressure on Lewis to perform to his vast abilities, especially now that he's played more like 3rd fiddle to Howard and Hedo but makes quite a bit more than both.

 

Why this works for the Bulls:

I hate the idea actually of losing Kirk "one bad year" Hinrich, a guy who I feel is a solid top 10 PG in this league who's been dealt a bumb hand by never having a solid offensive PF/C.  Kirk's done whatever the team has asked him to do, and for the most part done well, sans Nov-Dec last year.  Management made him redundant not really because they wanted a major upgrade at PG, but because they feel Derrek Rose is the future PG of the NBA, and you don't get many chances to win the lottery and luck into a pick like Rose.  We give up on the great upside of Thabo.  Another tough loss for us given that he's one player bloggers like me (and likely many on here) love.  He's tall, athletic, has nice passing abilities, can score, shows signs of improving drastically on offense, and is already skilled enough to contain the great Kobe Bryant for proof of his solid D.  The reason we give up on him is just to free up our guard logjam and to add a piece like Hedo.  Hedo's a tall SF, true he might be redundant, but his outside shooting touch can allow him to play a bit at the SG spots.  His height also helps him defensively as guys who might get past his feet speed have to remember he has long arms.  Sure he doesn't get a ton of blocks, but having that height will impact som shots.  Hedo can hit last second shots, a major plus for a team like the Bulls who often fizzle at the end or put too much emphasis on BG.  He has height too which might allow him to play some PF in a quick uptempo game.  He spreads opponents defense with his solid shooting.  And most importantly he likely will opt out next year, giving the Bulls the chance to have both Gooden and Hedo come off the books where we can make a call to resign both, one or the other, or none and go after a solid PF/C that we can play often.  The Bulls need to think the future with Rose and Hedo, while ideally redundant to Deng, really gives us some flexibility for even future trades this year.   I know this isn't a trade for exactly what we need (or anything that we need), but it is a longer term trade strategy, will put some of the pressures of winning on hold while we bring Rose along, will give Rose a nice piece to play alongside with.

I might be crazy, but perhaps we try a tall lineup of Rose-Hedo-Deng-Tyrus-Noah, being backed up by Hughes, Gooden, Nocioni, maybe even Gordon for this year, and who knows maybe Reddick can be a 3pt ace, or perhaps they can at least try Cook again in his Laker role....

We won't be stellar next year, but will have ways to build for the future, and we'll at least be tall, and very much athletic.  Plus we'll have another solid offensive player for Rose and take some of the pressure off of Rose-Noah-Tyrus to see those guys blossom.

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yeah, you're crazy
Hedo’s a tall SF, true he might be redundant, but his outside shooting touch can allow him to play a bit at the SG spots. His height also helps him defensively as guys who might get past his feet speed have to remember he has long arms.

The old, tall=better defensively argument.

Hedo is beyond ‘a bit redundant’, don’t you think?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 9, 2008 1:04 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

He is a bit more than redundant

But his money comes off the books, which is more than say the redundant Hinrich and even your nemesis, my friend, Andres Nocioni’s.

Who’s more redundant? A PG in a group of stacked PG’s who is good at basically everything but not great at anything, and one who is on the books for several more years when we have our PG of the future…..

Or a tall SF who can shoot lights out from the outside and therefore potentially at least give us length on the court, but one who most importantly is likely coming off the books after this year giving us $13-14M to play with next summer?

I take it Hedo’s a lot less redundant than Hinrich and is actually cheaper to boot.

I like Kirk, but mgmt made their call to move past the Kirk year’s. So let’s see that fully.

by majoyenrac on Sep 9, 2008 1:11 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I just think the Bulls can do better

by getting someone who’s not redundant at all.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 9, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe

But I don’t think they’ll do anything, and Hedo’s not a guy to sniff at. I like the flexibility. Trading for PF’s is tough, and besides I don’t know any we could get that would make us better…..

Thank God we’re not trying to get Randolph.

by majoyenrac on Sep 9, 2008 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who would that be?

The Bulls have a pretty full house as it is. Almost anyone is going to cause some redundancy somewhere unless they’re just so crappy we don’t care about playing them at all (e.g. something like Simmons + Hughes for Jerome James and Malik Rose… which would be addition by subtraction IMO).

by Sports2 on Sep 9, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

right I'd almost rather do a deal like that

The other big hole is beheamoth/jumpshooty frontcourt player.

I actually think the glut at SF is worse than guard.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 9, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not much of an upgrade at PG

Kirk’s not much better than Jameer Nelson if at all. The only thing that Kirk has going for him is that his contract is up one year earlier and probably better D. Orlando’s much more in need of a PF and backcourt depth than a starting caliber PG.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Sep 9, 2008 1:14 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

definitely better D

I think Hinrich’s a clear upgrade for them. Problem is that Nelson is now a very expensive backup.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 9, 2008 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Touche on that point

But I guess Nelson is in the Nocioni category for backups….. :).

by majoyenrac on Sep 9, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Orlando's in need at both PG and PF

And you’re crazy to think Nelson’s better or the same as Hinrich…..we’ll see if this ever happened.

Hedo was redundant all year last year for the Magic and was fabulous for them….I think he’s a nice redundancy to have, especially for just 1 year.

by majoyenrac on Sep 9, 2008 1:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hedo was fantastic and the team could win 50 games again with him.

Chances are, though, he regresses from last year and the team still needs help down low with defense and rebounding. Check out that link I posted above, you’d be surprised how close Jameer and Kirk are in production.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Sep 9, 2008 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your Link

Shows a 2004 Hinrich against a 2005 Nelson, not comparative. And has nothing on the D skills that help make Captain Kirk a star.

Hedo might regress a bit, but again it’s one year and he’s going for the contract….and as we stand we have too many redundant pieces to not try to make a splash, even if it’s a splash next offseason….that might even be better with a rookie coach, a #1 overall rookie, a young Noah, and hopefully a 30MPG avg for Tyrus to just have this as a real learning year instead of a “win first” year where we play old crap players in the detriment of developing the young players because we want to push the marketing that we’re going to win even with our what was it 10-25 record by Dec…

by majoyenrac on Sep 9, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, thought I put the career totals link out there

If you click on the “Search Tool” link at the top of the page, you can adjust to career totals or look year by year. Nelson’s career totals, like Hinrich’s, seem to be largely impacted by one great year and a bunch of “eh.” Hinrich, thanks to his D, has a larger impact, but I don’t think it’s enough of one to warrant forcing Nelson’s contract to the bench while they still have a huge hole to fill at PF.

There’s certainly redundancies on the roster, but fixing them with other redundancies is just making moves for the sake of making moves. The Hedo trade makes sense if you think the Bulls are bound to flounder this year and plan to either flip him at the deadline or wait for his contract to come off the books. I’d rather see the team clear up some of those redundancies with actual upgrades or at least someone who can contribute something unique to the team. Making a move simply to clear cap space doesn’t cut it.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Sep 9, 2008 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough and thanks

I just think as we’ve seen it’s nearly impossible to trade for a quality PF when everyone is clamoring for one. THe best way to get a top tier PF/C is via free agency and we can be players in free agency through this trade.

I’d also like to do so by at least still being somewhat competitive (To keep our young guys like Tyrus, Noah and now Rose) still high on the Bulls as a club….because last year was just a horrible mess.

Turkoglu is a solid player and was never really garbage, he just turned from Joe Avg into Joseph above average last year.

I do think we have a glut at SF with Deng, Noc, and potentially Tyrus….but mgmt wants to put Tyrus at PF (which he can be ok at in time potentially) and I do think Noc has value.

But I think our gluttony of guards (a strength if we had a PF) is our biggest problem. We have Kirk, Rose, Hughes, potentially Gordon and even Thabo who should all get 25 MPG or 30 MPG (yes even Hughes for the haters). At 25 MPG that’s an extra 31 minutes to find. At 30MPG that’s an extra 54 minutes to find…..

Compare that to SF (Deng 30 MPG); Noc (18 MPG there and 10 MPG at PF).

PF: Gooden (35 MPG total, maybe and unfortunately 10 at C ); Tyrus (30 MPG) and Noc (10 MPG). 65Minutes ideally.

C: Noah (30 MPG); Gooden (unfortunately but where’s the depth 10 MPG, and Gray/remainder of PF 8 MPG….

We can manage the other spots but we can’t manage the guards….which is likely why BG (our best guard) is a goner).

Having BG go, trading Hinrich and Thabo for a guy who can at least shoot like a SG and has a little ball handling skills….might help make all our PT for Rose-Noah-Tyrus a lot easier, and really this year that should be our focus, especially with Tyrus….

Lineup:
Rose 33 MPG backed with Hughes 15 MPG
Hedo 33 MPG backed with Hughes 10 MPG, Deng 5 MPG
Deng 28 MPG backed with Nocioni 15 MPG and Thomas 5 MPG
Thomas 20 MPG backed with Gooden 18 MPG and Nocioni 10 MPG
Noah 30 MPG backed with Gooden 10 MPG (depth issues) and Gray 8 MPG.

Not the best lineup, but at least we the fans will get solid views of our team in an important rebuilding year. We use what we learn for the soon to happen potential Tyrus resigning and use cap money from Gooden and Hedo potentially to get a Boozer…..or even hold off 1 more year, resign Tyrus and use money to be a key player in the 2010 sweepstakes….

by majoyenrac on Sep 9, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Bulls need more depth on the front court, but keeping what they have now isn't terrible

Gooden’s a much better player than you give him credit for and probably a better complement to both Thomas and Noah than either is for each other at this point in their careers. Gooden may not be great defensively, but he at least provides bulk to match up against some of the bigger low post bodies with Thomas/Noah providing the weak side help and rim protection.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Sep 10, 2008 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know

Gooden is a decent player. We have nice pieces but very young pieces in the frontcourt, and really little depth at C. I have Gooden in at 28 minutes. When I said I’d like to play him 10MPG at C (depth issues)…..I was trying to say Gooden is in now way an adequate Center….but he’s a more than adequate PF. Without Tyrus and his potential, I’d love to give Gooden a 30-35MPG PF slot….but Tyrus has a much higher upside and also a much greater risk of being a bust too, and this year has to be the year management starts making those decisions….I’d like to see it too as a fan.

by majoyenrac on Sep 10, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see how Gooden's inadequate at C

unless he’s out there with Noce or Deng as the PF. Gooden/Tyrus should be a pretty good combo on the floor.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Sep 10, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see how

He’s adequate at C either, but neither is Gray for 18 MPG….where’s the depth? Gooden will be playing there.

by majoyenrac on Sep 10, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

snely said he doesn't see him as inadaquate

Lots of minutes for the Gooden/Noah/Tyrus combination at the 4/5. They just need one more guy who isn’t Gray or Nocioni…and if Pax’s recent (rumored) moves are any indication he wants to get someone who can hit a jumper.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 10, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I saw that just not

I thought he said otherwise.

Maybe against the thinner C’s, Gooden’s ok at the C spot, but I wouldn’t think he’s the ideal C at all. He’s probably a 15-20 PF and a 30-35 C. He’s a solid player, and isn’t exactly a horrible option….but we’re not going to be major powers with Gooden as a major minute C….we could be a power team with Gooden as our main PF if we had an elite C though….

by majoyenrac on Sep 10, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gordon, pick for Reddick and Lee/Gortat

I like this but it means the bulls will get more younger, either Gortat or Lee(beast) will be a solid ttrade

by knickknack7450 on Sep 9, 2008 9:55 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

who the heck is Lee?

::looks it up::

oh, jeez. The guy that was just picked 22nd???

AND WE’D GIVE THEM THE PICK????

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 9, 2008 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i heard lee was impressing

however, why the hell would we trade gordon for TWO SGs? we have enough guards as is. and we don’t need some project center, either.

by Jaina on Sep 9, 2008 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

or to get younger in general

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 9, 2008 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think the Magic would give up Turkoglu.

He was statistically their 2nd best player last year and he took the game winning shots for that team. You sold his value to Orlando very short.

The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.

by clarkpojo on Sep 10, 2008 6:46 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I know they wouldn't ideally give him up

But they aren’t going to be able to resign him after he opts out next year, so they run the risk of losing him for nothing, and that is why I think we try to snatch him up for that flexibility in his cap situation, the fact that while he was their 2nd best player, his skills are redundant with the Magics 20+ million dollar man, and the Magic want to start putting the onus on Lewis to step up a bit more.

I’m not selling Orlando short at all….they are very likely to lose him for nothing. Nabbing Hinrich and Thabo is hardly selling them short. They’d have a solid 4 to build a dynasty on, with Hinrich easily a more than adequate PG, Thabo a seemingly strong future SG, Lewis an all star caliber SF/PF and Howard, the future best C of this generation…..

Right now they run the risk of losing Hedo for nothing, not having the money to sign even a Hinrich caliber player in free agency (let alone Hinrich and Thabo) and will be in the mid 20’s likely in draft picks for a while to come.

It’s not a bad trade at all. Especially since Hinrich’s salary declines every year.

by majoyenrac on Sep 10, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agree on redundancy

Not sure I agree with the reasoning. Bulls trade away 2 assets for two players that are poor man versions of what they would keep on the roster because of the trade.

Turk is a tweener like Noce who can shoot it, but can’t match up evenly with both positions they play on the defense. Noce 3 or 4. Turk 2 or 3.

BG can flat out shoot but that is about it. Atleast he is proven in the NBA. JJ is a very poor man version because he is unproven in the NBA.

BUT! They both have the same legnth nickname or abbrevations. Does that count for anything?

by Jesse07 on Sep 10, 2008 9:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't care about JJ or Brian Cook

They are throw ins to make the salaries match…..Bulls could cut them really for all I care.

I’m not crazy about Hedo because he’s redundant to Deng for our team, what I like about this trade is the flexibility it allows us for 2010.

by majoyenrac on Sep 10, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry for spoiling all your fun

I might be wrong, but there’s something i don’t understand. I didn’t saw a lot of games of Orlando, but since when Turkoglu plays at the 2? Are you saying that only because he can shoot 3pointers???

If you want to go big, the solution would be to put Deng at the 2 and Turkoglu at the 3. Not the otherway… Turkoglu can’t dribble and he is slower than Deng…

In general, I like the trade idea. The only thing that i don’t like so much is giving up Thabo. But if could get Turkoglu, Thabo wouldn’t have so much PT anyway… :s

Please Pax, don't trade Hughes! Just make sure that he stays injured until... 2010!!!

by bull83 on Sep 10, 2008 10:06 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah I don't know

Hedo I believe has played some time forced at SG, but Deng might be better placed there….still I don’t know if that’s the story for teh Bulls to put Deng at SG either….

That’s the redundancy of this trade, and it’s a problem, but it’s a one year issue on a team that while nobody wants to say it is probably rebuilding or at least doing some major retinkering.

This trade allows us to do that retinkering much easier than we could otherwise as it frees up the guard logjam and can make us players again in free agency (except this time in a free agency with several prizes all of whom are better than Wallace).

by majoyenrac on Sep 10, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

there is no guard logjam compared to

3 SFs who actually deserve minutes. With the guards, you can easily take minutes away from Hughes and Thabo without consequence.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 10, 2008 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But do we want to

take minutes away from Thabo?

And I would think the consequence of taking minutes away from Hughes is that he could cause issues in the locker room. Reinsdorf isn’t going to want to pay him $26M over the next two untradable years to ride the pine…..he might consider that next year, but really has Hughes ever been that much of a problem to deserve that either?

He doesn’t deserve his money, but he still has game, he’s just not as good as Kirk or Rose or BG if he comes back…..

by majoyenrac on Sep 10, 2008 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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