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Gordon miffed, but will sign (one deal or another) Wednesday

Mike McGraw, with lots of interesting perspectives on Gordon and the other guards from media day:

"I'm going to be part of the team," Gordon said Monday at the Berto Center. "All I can do is continue to be professional. That's why I'm here today. That's why I'll be with my teammates tomorrow even if I'm not going to practice."

...

"I don't want this to be a situation where anyone thinks we don't value Ben, because we do," Paxson said. "If he's on our team, we hope he has a great year and helps us win games."

It's conceivable that Gordon will threaten to take the qualifying offer until the last possible moment, in hopes that the Bulls improve their offer. An increase doesn't seem likely, though, because the Bulls' payroll is approaching the luxury-tax threshold.

Asked if he's ruled out re-signing with the Bulls if he becomes unrestricted next summer, Gordon replied, "I don't know. Ask me in a year."

Once Gordon's contract is resolved, the Bulls will address a related problem - what to do with the crowd in the backcourt. They finished last season with Gordon, Kirk Hinrich, Larry Hughes, Thabo Sefolosha and Chris Duhon struggling to get comfortable with inconsistent playing time.

Since then, Duhon left for New York as a free agent, only to be replaced by Rose, the top pick of the NBA draft. The Bulls plan to bring Rose along slowly, but he'll be a fixture at point guard sooner rather than later.

"It's not going to be easy," first-year coach Vinny Del Negro said. "We have a lot of talented guys at the one, two and three. Maybe sometimes we'll play a little bit smaller. The guys that compete the hardest, not only in practice but in games, and prepare the best and are ready to go to battle, obviously those are the guys you want to go with."

...

"Obviously, the logical person that people were talking about moving was Kirk," Paxson said. "I certainly wouldn't want to be sitting here next year not having Kirk or Ben. That was the reason we held pat in the backcourt."

Asked his thoughts about solving the logjam at guard, Gordon said, "It's a mystery. I've been trying to figure that out the whole time. I guess the only thing you can do is wait and see."

Paxson has made it sound as though Gordon signing a long-term deal would make it more likely that one of the other guards would be moved.

"I don't know if that makes sense," Gordon said. "That doesn't make sense to me. You could have done a deal with me and then if you wanted to move somebody, move somebody. I don't think it had to go in that order."

As Paxson said, in terms of who to trade, the only person really impacted by whether Gordon takes a 1 or 6-year deal is Hinrich. There's still no reason not to deal Hughes and Nocioni to clear up minutes.

As for Gordon's comments, he seems a bit slighted, but it sounds more like fuel for motivation than for petulance. There's talk of a last-minute avoidance of the QO, but the Sun Times reports that the Bulls are at $58m and Gordon's agents 'are believed to be' asking for $75m. I doubt that the gap is that wide (it almost sounds like the Sun-Times report is still using the year-old speculation that Gordon wanted to make more than Ben Wallace), but it still sounds like any compromise is a longshot.

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I'm still hoping for a deal.

Why would Gordon wait for the last minute to sign the QO if he wasn’t still hoping to sign a deal? I’m still hoping.

Matt has done a great job educating us on the qualifying offer. Gordon said he was certain he would not take the Qualifying Offer. He also said he would not play for the Bulls. But here we are. He is going to play for the Bulls. We all want the Bulls to win. The world is not perfect. Maybe after the frightening day on Wall Street yesterday Gordon will realize how lucky he is and take the offer. If not we still have Gordon and I think a very interesting, though not perfect team to root for. Since we spent the summer together mulling every conceivable aspect of this issue I’ve come to some conclusions.

1- We all want the Bulls to win as many games as possible this year. Some would disagree but I would think we are better with Gordon than without Gordon.
2- Gordon is a dedicated basketball player. He is not a flake and not a distraction off the court.
3- Unfortunately Gordon is short for a basketball player and this is taken advantage of by the opposition. 5" taller and he gets more money than Deng.
4- After reading countless diaries there is a genuine difference of opinion about how to build the team. Knowing Rose is going to take time to develop not locking ourselves into a bad long-term deal is paramount to one group. The other side says it is critical we succeed now even if we over-pay Gordon. This makes the team more attractive to FAs and helps the karma of the team.
5- The disappointment from last season is palpable. We all have angst with management but often for different reasons. I hated the Wallace trade from day one. My anger at the Corpse seemed unquenchable. The distribution of minutes, particularly to TT and Thabo was my second gripe. Boylan was terrible. I’m getting upset just writing about these miss-steps.
6- This season is truly a question mark. I still like our young guys, but someone needs to step up from one of the young guys to one of the go-to guys.

Thank God for BlogaBull – where else could we write a tome on the Ben Gordon negotiations?

by chgobr on Sep 30, 2008 9:22 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gordon Holds Out!

And promises NOT to practice, and you say he’s miffed. Well, the Bulls should be miffed too…He is already putting himself before the team. This could be a long season if he signs the QO…

"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson

by Dionysus2.0 on Sep 30, 2008 9:37 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not practice for a day.

Bulls never get miffed, only ‘disappointed’.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 30, 2008 9:40 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

take a second to think about it

he’s NOT UNDER CONTRACT. Why practice when you don’t even have a contract? What if during the first 2-a-day he blew out his knee? Any player would do the same thing.

by NormVanBeer on Sep 30, 2008 9:40 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly.

He is holding one day in a contract dispute. The leading scorer will not be out there on the first day of practice, which is essentially the orientation into the new system. I would think that would be a distraction.

"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson

by Dionysus2.0 on Sep 30, 2008 9:52 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I disagree...

…and so do the players:

Hinrich dismissed the notion that Gordon’s contract status would be a training camp distraction.

“We know Ben well enough that when he gets in the gym, he works as hard as anyone,” he said.

by NormVanBeer on Sep 30, 2008 10:09 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I see the point

I actually think it is a good position for Ben to take. I’d probably do the same.

However, I don’t know what purpose it serves him other than to use the days remaining to open the season as the rest of his contract negotiation. Getting into the system now is what is going to give him the best chance to get the most minutes.

I’d take the QO, get into camp, start practicing, and make sure my value is maxed with a strong season.

by NBA Observer on Sep 30, 2008 12:48 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Still sounds to me like

“Gee, we’d like to pay you more, but we can’t pay the luxury tax. And we can’t clear any more space under the luxury tax until after we sign you. At which point, we will certainly clear more space under the luxury tax, but unfortunately you’ll have just been a bit too early in signing your contract. Bummer.”

by Sports2 on Sep 30, 2008 9:41 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gordon, by the way, hit this clearly on the head in the final quote.

I mean, it’s pretty clear to him that they’re eventually going to make a move, and that they’re waiting to maintain leverage. Because if they made a trade sooner, it would take away the luxury tax rationale they’ve been using.

by Sports2 on Sep 30, 2008 9:44 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, but

Pax also says that he is afraid that if he deals Hinrich before, he could end up without both Hinrich and Gordon.

There is no certainty either that if they traded Hinrich, they could sign Ben for what they think he is worth (even if slightly over 10 mil per year). That’s the risk Pax didn’t want to take.

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Sep 30, 2008 10:19 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Or Pax could've just went (temporarily) over the tax line

and then made deals. As sportstwo said, the self-imposed contract ceiling was for leverage.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 30, 2008 10:24 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Easy to say that, harder to execute

You can end up getting hosed on a trade if you get caught at the trading deadline “having” to make a trade.

by CJ Bulls on Sep 30, 2008 10:58 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So pay the tax

The club can afford it. And if that’s the penalty for paying Ben Wallace 60 million dollars then eat it and go home. It could be a lot worse.

We still have that “no players in the marketing” story as an open position. They’re not even using the players to appeal to female fans.

by NBA Observer on Sep 30, 2008 12:52 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Easy for you to say....

Not only overpay for the contract and restrict your future salary cap. But on top of that, add 6 million (minimum) to your payroll.

Last year teams got about 4 million back if I remember correctly. So you’re passing up 4 million, plus the dollar for dollar if you go over.

by CJ Bulls on Sep 30, 2008 1:00 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In the long run

Chicago has collected a share of the lux tax benefit every season its been a rule. They have done this without even exceeding the salary cap. They have done it in a big market city. They have done it with three post season appearances. They have done while Forbes rates them as the most profitable franchise in the NBA.

If you profit all along the way and you need to pay the price one year to get rid of the dead weight, you do it.

by NBA Observer on Sep 30, 2008 1:17 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So what happens next year when Drew Gooden is a free agent

Signing him will put them over the tax again. Are you saying to forget about him?

It’s one thing to go over the tax for a championship team ready to make a run. It’s another to pay the tax on a rebuilding/retooling team in order to overpay a pretty good, not close to great player.

by CJ Bulls on Sep 30, 2008 1:39 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Its a non-issue if Gordon leaves.

But, I consider Gooden trade bait all year, especially if Tyrus shows he can earn consistent minutes. I do not expect Gooden will be retained.

"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson

by Dionysus2.0 on Sep 30, 2008 1:43 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gray's going to have to show he's worthy of minutes as well if Gooden's traded

That, or whatever trade Gooden goes out in is going to have to bring back another 4/5.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Sep 30, 2008 1:46 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's still a bit of an issue

depending on what Gooden gets traded for. If he gets traded for someone with a significant salary, it’ll still be a problem. If he gets combined up with someone (eg Noc, Kirk) on a longer deal, then no problem.

In any case, there’s always the chance he can be retained if Tyrus flops again. Then we trade away Tyrus and work on signing Gooden.

by Sports2 on Sep 30, 2008 1:48 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hughes expires in two years, not one

So now you’re paying 2 years of luxury tax….anywhere from 12-20 million more than you need to be, minimum.

by CJ Bulls on Sep 30, 2008 3:41 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Luxury tax

Why are you all in such a hurry to pay the luxury tax for a bad team?

I could see your argument if we had won the NBA championship last year and we were trying to hold the team together for another run…..but this team was bad last year and is possibly going to be even worse this year with the 5-headed monster at guard.

The only hope of interest is Rose driving and dumping to TT who slams it home.

by kmatus on Oct 1, 2008 7:34 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think of it more like

paying the luxury tax for a season to get out from the Wallace mistake. The Bulls should be able to pay their way out of a mistake or two.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 1, 2008 9:21 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They've exceeded the salary cap, but not the luxury tax threshold

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Oct 3, 2008 11:22 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly, if Hinrich is dealt, the suddenly Ben could be

demanding a contract bigger than Deng knowing the Bulls are stuck. Pax made the right move. Using the luxury tax as a ceiling is fine because the Bulls probably don’t think he’s worth more than that anyways (based on last years negotiations).

by CJ Bulls on Sep 30, 2008 10:57 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Paxson's comment about Hinrich...

…was baffling from a basketball perspective because if true it basically kills Hinrich’s trade value and publicly plays favorites by intimating that if Gordon gets signed, Hinrich gets traded.

Maybe it plays out that way, but contra Pax, it’s not necessarily the logical thing to consider. Why not trade Thabo? Why not trade Hughes? Is it harder to trade Hughes? No, you just get less in return. But you’re giving up less… he’s a sunk cost. Why not trade Cedric Simmons to some cash strapped team under the cap (ie Memphis) along with $3M? There are plenty of ways to handle the short-term issue. Trading Hinrich is a logical thing to do, it’s not the logical thing to do this moment. But…

Paxson’s comment about Hinrich…

… was, pretty logical thing to do from a leverage perspective. Make it sound like re-signing Gordon forces the team to trade Mr. Popularity. You know, the guy who’s got a fan club. So what if it potentially teammates against each other or plays on fan’s varying loyalties to guys.

by Sports2 on Sep 30, 2008 12:44 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It was such an odd comment for Pax to make flat out,

I’d really like to know what question prompted it – I’m wondering if someone specifically asked him about trading Kirk (or not trading Kirk, to be more accurate), and he was addressing a particular question.

I mean, I get what you are saying about it being logical as far as negotiating with BG, but Pax so rarely says anything about trading anyone except in vague generalities (esp. since the Kobe rumors) that I have a hard time seeing him throwing that out there on his own. I’d have expected him to continue with the generic “no trades till contract done” stuff rather than specifically bring Kirk into it.

Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!

by wjb1492 on Sep 30, 2008 1:13 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought that was fairly out of line for him as well

I did a double-take once I realized he had actually dropped a name. Someone must have prompted him with a Kirk-centric question.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Sep 30, 2008 1:16 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it's a good point but...

he’s typically bristled at those sort of questions in the past. Whether he was asked the question or not, he still has responsibility for what comes out of his mouth, and he chose to dive right in to that one.

by Sports2 on Sep 30, 2008 1:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe the poor guy is delirious at this point and doesn't even know what he's saying.

I mean, have you seen the pic of him from the press conference yesterday? He looks like he’s aged at least 10 years just this summer.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Sep 30, 2008 1:27 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He added scruff

Hair off the head. Hair on the chin.

I like this Paxson.

by NBA Observer on Sep 30, 2008 2:53 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe it's Jim Paxson disguising himself with facial hair

you know… the evil twin?

I’m not going to post the Evil Spock picture though.

by Sports2 on Sep 30, 2008 3:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I assume what Pax is thinking if he made that statement

is he doesn’t want to commit so much of his payroll to the guard position. Kirk Ben and Rose would represent close to half the teams payroll.

by CJ Bulls on Sep 30, 2008 1:15 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The context of this quote is important.

But I interpret the meaning to be that Kirk was inquired about in the off season, but Pax would not make a move and be left with nothing. I doubt people were calling about Hughes or Thabo.

"The whole leverage thing, it's a difficult thing to gauge" -Paxson

by Dionysus2.0 on Sep 30, 2008 1:41 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why would you doubt they're calling about Hughes?

Suppose you’ve got a brand new BMW and a 15 year old Civic for sale.

Which do you get more calls on? Depends on the price you’re asking, not what kind of car you’re selling.

by Sports2 on Sep 30, 2008 1:51 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

am I driving this car to teach at the inner city school or the suburbs?

I’m getting lost in your metaphors :-p

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 30, 2008 1:52 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm curious to see what the hat thing is all about

It seems kind of ridiculous when you just see the pictures. Maybe they’re going for the opposite of tough this year?

Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!

by wjb1492 on Sep 30, 2008 10:35 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it's for all the in-game 'goofy' scoreboard stuff

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 30, 2008 11:36 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ah, wouldn't have thought of that

Certainly nailed the goofy part.

Man-slave, bring me my PB&J!

by wjb1492 on Sep 30, 2008 11:45 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no, JoNo's J's

are small enough to fit in a cigarette pack

Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team.

-- Scottie Pippen

by Orlando Woolridge on Sep 30, 2008 12:29 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here we go again...

In spite of all that insightful information about BG and the Bulls, one buried lead jumps out at me:

“It’s not going to be easy,” first-year coach Vinny Del Negro said. "We have a lot of talented guys at the one, two and three. Maybe sometimes we’ll play a little bit smaller.

The return of TinyBall! With no Duhon, will we call this TinyBall 2.0?

I don’t know how Matt let that slide by without comment.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Sep 30, 2008 12:50 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tiny Ball in and of itself is not a terrible thing

If VDN uses the right combos at the right time, going small could be effective for this team. Hopefully, it will only be used in situations when Noah or Thomas is getting a breather as I think the two of them together have enough athleticism to keep up with most teams’ small ball line ups and take advantage by dominating the boards.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Sep 30, 2008 1:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If it includes Noc

then it is a bad thing.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Sep 30, 2008 1:14 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At this point, I'd rather see Noce over Thabo in a small ball lineup

Unless Paxson actually finds a taker for him before the season, we should probably expect to see a bit of Noce at the 4 each game.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Sep 30, 2008 1:21 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We were far worse last year

From a +/- perspective when Noc or Deng were playing the 4, versus Thomas or Gooden.

--Torch

by torch on Sep 30, 2008 4:32 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's not too surprising because they were used at the 4 at the wrong times and w/ the wrong teammates

Every team in today’s NBA goes small at some point during a game. The Bulls should try to save the Noc/Deng combo for those times.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Oct 1, 2008 8:45 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I dont know

I could imagine a rose, gordon, hinrich 3 guard rotation being somewhat effective…at least on offense…(disaster on defense especially. Hinrich might get fatigued quickly guarding 2s, but i dont think he could last 5 minutes against 3s)

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....

by piccolomair on Sep 30, 2008 1:04 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I saw that as well, but I was too depressed after reading that

to actually want to post it here. Blech.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Sep 30, 2008 1:04 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

well, Rose is a couple inches taller than Duhon :)

I assumed he meant more along the lines of Thabo at the 3, Noc at the 4, etc.

Rose/BG/Hinrich isn’t as bad as Duhon/BG/Hinrich, but I wouldn’t exactly like it, no. Besides, poor Kirk Hinrich will get tired, which will hurt his shooting!

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 30, 2008 1:08 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

...and increase his moping!

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Sep 30, 2008 1:17 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Didnt you hear he got his swagger back

IM not sure what that means, but its gotta be the opposite of moping.

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....

by piccolomair on Sep 30, 2008 1:20 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe he got a swagger stick like General Patton

This guy is actually holding a pace stick not a swagger stick. These days they’re both little but ornamental sticks carried by officers in some militaries but they had different functions at one time. The pace stick was traditionally used to measure out precise distances, such as for aligning guns and forming parades. An actual swagger stick served no measuring purpose and was basically just a stick the higher ranking solder could use to point directions to lower ranking soldiers, or could use to smack the snot out of subordinates who needed some discipline.

by Sports2 on Sep 30, 2008 1:34 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They don't care for

Kirk so they don’t want to hear any positives about him.

by sue369 on Sep 30, 2008 2:08 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

kirk's fine

kirk fans….

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 30, 2008 3:32 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Help the Bulls Help Themselves

Dear Ben:

Please, help the Bulls help themselves.

Sign the QO. Next year move on to some team like the Clippers. You aren’t getting $12-14 million a year from anyone, but please take your lack of ability to dribble, shoot or play D somewhere else.

by kmatus on Oct 1, 2008 7:26 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lack of ability to shoot?

are you kidding me? that’s the best thing gordon does!

by Jaina on Oct 1, 2008 7:33 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shooting is

the only thing BG does well. You have to give him that.

by sue369 on Oct 1, 2008 10:42 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OOOOPS

Looks like I can’t shoot either.

meant to say:

…..but please take your lack of ability to dribble, pass or play D somewhere else.

by kmatus on Oct 2, 2008 8:26 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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