Starting SG measurements

by messwiththebull on Aug 6, 2008 10:25 PM CDT Comment 12 comments

This is just a follow up to the discussion I had with Fundamentally Sound but quoting the post would have truncated the picture so I am posting here.

I could not find all the official pre-draft measurements so I either left some unlisted as "n/a" or I had to refer to the listed measurements from ESPN (for height only). It would probably be wise to remove the outliers like Iverson, Durant, and Dunleavy so I omitted them but this is just a general idea over a smaller, more relevant sample (starting 2 guards), so take it for what you will. I was curious to see the NBA averages for starting 2 guards which I feel is more relevant than the averages based on a sample of 132 SGs. I've added some comments on the side to explain why I chose a particular SG to include in the sample. I am omitting vertical jump because no one is asking for blocked shots or perimeter defenders to leave their feet.

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Ouch

Comeon Thabo

by hlac on Aug 6, 2008 11:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

A couple of notes:

I am sure some SGs need to be updated. For example, I believe Raja Bell is not on Phoenix anymore but I’m too tired to look. Please advise and I can update the sheet.

Also, height is important. If you are a shorter defender with an above average standing reach, you are giving up a few inches of that when guarding a taller player. In order to get a hand in the shooter’s face, you must angle your arm upwards, similar to how a shorter boxer must jab upwards against a taller fighter, resulting in a shorter reach than if you were reaching straight across.

by messwiththebull on Aug 6, 2008 11:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Where'd Raja Bell go?

I didn’t hear he left the Suns. Did he really? That’d be a blow to their already weak perimeter defense, since he’s easily their best defender now that they had traded Marion.

I didn’t see any real mistakes or anyone you missed. Maybe Eric Gordon for the Clippers? Randy Foye for the T-Wolves?

This was interesting to look at. There’s more height at the position than I thought.

Mortimer

by Mortimer on Aug 7, 2008 6:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe I was confusing Bell for Mike Finley.

I think Foye is starting at PG and I’m assuming Eric Gordon comes off the bench.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see VDN start Thabo and have BG come off as the 6th much like Phoenix does with Bell and Barbosa.

by messwiththebull on Aug 7, 2008 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

joe johnson

is over 6’8??

by Jaina on Aug 6, 2008 11:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

With shoes on, yes

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=2001&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=2&sort=

The majority of these are measurements with shoes on unless otherwise noted.

I probably should have excluded Jason Terry as an outlier for the West.

There are a decent amount of w/o shoe measurements so there may be some more upside I’m omitting on the averages.

by messwiththebull on Aug 6, 2008 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow

thought he was only 6’6 or 6’7 – he’s only listed as 6’7 on nba.com

by Jaina on Aug 7, 2008 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why did you arbitrarily make 6'9" the outlier cutoff?

But included Joe Johnson at 6’8.25”...

You also missed Mike Miller in Minnesota, they trade OJ Mayo for him, he will be starting in front of McCants…And Willie Green (6’4”) started 74 games for Philly as their SG alongside Miller, I wouldn’t omit him to skew the stats…

by Dionysus2.0 on Aug 7, 2008 10:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

doesn't make sense

to include miller (who i assume will start for the wolves but hasn’t yet) but then include willie green who started last year but probably won’t with their new lineup. either take last years stats or this years…

by Jaina on Aug 7, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

er, what is projected to be next years

by Jaina on Aug 7, 2008 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

More so because of the players than the height

Mike Dunleavy was not drafted as a SG nor he has really played one until Indiana (correct me if I’m wrong, Golden Staters). Similar to Kevin Durant who has played the 3 and 4 more than the 2, except under P.J. Some would question whether these guys are really 2 guards or just starting there due to roster necessity. I didn’t want to upwardly distort the SG height but that doesn’t mean I was correct in excluding their measurements. That is why I still listed out their measurements in case anyone wanted to do some recalibration.

Joe Johnson is a legitimate 2 guard, I don’t think anyone would question that, either on Atlanta or really any NBA team so his measurement stays.

Good point on Mike Miller, but I am still uncertain if he will start over McCants and still expect Miller to come off the bench. I could very well be wrong. I will update this as more concrete info comes in, but with enough roster uncertainty, I wanted to place the emphasis on giving a general idea.

I don’t think I’ve skewed the stats by omitting Willie Green, but feel free to substitute him if you feel that way. The “skewing” certainly was not intentional and was caveated with the accompanying commentary next to the Iguodala inclusion.

by messwiththebull on Aug 7, 2008 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is a very valuable start

But we need to do more with the data. I have two primary questions, as they relate to the fact that our starting 2-guard (probably) will be in the bottom 10 percent in terms of size:

(1) Now that we have identified the abnormally small starting 2-guards, what is the effect to a team of starting such a player? This needs to include a quick study to make sure that the player in question actually played most of his minutes at the 2 (via 82games.com), and should identify any measurable effects to the team on a macro level.

(2) What about backup 2-guards? Are they of a similar size as starting 2-guards, or is there a noticable dropoff here? There will be further implications to study if it turns out that there is a noticeable dropoff in size from starters to backups. For instance, it would imply that NBA teams take players like Ben Gordon and almost universally (Iverson aside) make them backups; is that trend supportable by the data? Meaning – is there good reason to believe that immensely small 2-guards should be limited to a backup role, presumably to play against other teams’ smaller backups?

I don’t know what the answer to these and other questions are; all I know is that we have a really good (if delusional about his own value) but really small 2-guard, whose size seems to be a severely limiting factor in his overall value to the team. A detailed study on the actual effects of extremely small 2-guards would be valuable to help understand just how limiting BG’s size may be to the team on the court.

Parental Advisory - Explicit Content

by Jivas on Aug 12, 2008 5:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs