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Prof. Dave Berri's Wages of Wins Analysis of the Bulls.

I know there are skeptics regarding the Wages of Wins analysis.  Nevertheless, I find the analysis interesting, and Prof. Berri did accurately predict the triumph of the Celtics last year.  He also accurately predicted that Philadelphia did better trading Allen Iverson than most people thought.

Here is his preseason analysis of the Bulls.  I take away two points: no one player can be blamed for last year's collapse because all of our best players underperformed, and, in light of such an unusual teamwide collapse, perhaps we can hope that the team will return to form this year.  Or not!  It could be worse; at least I have some reason to hope.  But which Bulls team will show up this year is very hard to predict.

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shorter Prof. Berri

“I don’t have a clue how the Bulls will do this season.”

vanillablue.wordpress.com

by vanillablue on Aug 29, 2008 1:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Yet this analysis also gives more reasons why Gordon shouldn't be the highest paid player

http://www.wagesofwins.com/Chicago2008.html

The proper comparison is not Gordon’s shooting relative to the rest of the Bulls. No, a better comparison is to look at everything he does (including shooting) relative to the average shooting guard in the league. And by that comparison, Gordon should not be the highest paid player on this team (or any other team).

Odenied: Asked whether he noticed Oden favoring his right knee, Frye dismissed it entirely. "He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors."

by Norsktroll on Aug 29, 2008 1:22 PM CDT reply actions  

I find it interesting that Noce produced -1.2 wins.

"Rest satisified with doing well and leave others to talk of you as they please"

by Bigred15 on Aug 29, 2008 1:33 PM CDT reply actions  

World of Warcraft?

"I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Gonna kick some ass in the USA. Gonna climb a mountain, gonna sew a flag, gonna fly on an eagle. I’m gonna kick some butt, gonna drive a big truck. I’m gonna rule this world. I’m gonna kick some ass. I’m gonna rise up, gonna kick a little ass. Rock, flag, and eagle!"

by Ozzie Montana on Aug 29, 2008 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

The frustrating thing about WoW is that his analysis comes out okay about half the time, despite

only using his crappy system. I’m usually annoyed when we agree on something because it’s like having a guy join a political discussion and agreeing with all my points, but only doing so because of his own crazy conspiracy theories. His wackiness only makes arguing something unconventional, but true like Kobe being overrated more difficult because all anyone wants to focus on is the loony in the room.

by Scotter on Aug 29, 2008 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Berri does provoke strong reactions.

I don’t think he would be so controversial if he just opined that scoring is overrated and other stats, especially rebounding, underrated. I think he provokes strong reactions because he acts as if he has come up with the superstat that everyone should be using. But doesn’t Hollinger make similar claims for PER? And don’t adjusted plus/minus statisticians make similar claims? Don’t all stat-heads sometimes seem arrogant when they defend their systems?

I’m not enough of a statistician to challenge or defend Berri’s calculations, but I find myself agreeing with many of his conclusions — way more than half. My biggest question is whether he properly accounts for defensive abilities or inabilities. For example, Berri thinks the world of Chris Paul, who is an offensive force, but plus/minus statisticians claim that Paul is a huge defensive liability. I’m not sure Berri has a good answer for that.

At any rate, do you agree or disagree with Berri’s analysis of the Bulls? I tend to agree that everyone on the team had an off year, which is encouraging in a weird way, because it seems unlikely that everyone is really that bad. On the other hand, we need a complete return to form, not just a half-way return to form, and that might be alot to expect. I tend to think the team will be better than last year, but not as good as two years ago — say a 42-win team — unless the youngest players become all-stars very quickly, the way Chris Paul and Tyson Chandler have for New Orleans.

by Tim S. on Aug 29, 2008 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Don’t all stat-heads sometimes seem arrogant when they defend their systems?"

I’m not sure, but calling someone a “stat-head” seems pretty self-important. Berri didn’t have to pound his chest after cracking the NBA box score with nuclear physics. Dean Oliver had already done it with basic math.

re: Hollinger & Rosenbaum – no.

by hscs on Aug 29, 2008 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm aware of the controversy.

And as I’ve said, I’m no statistician, so I can’t judge who is right, Rosenbaum or Berri (or Hollinger). All I can tell is that some people seem quite worked up about it. It’s too bad, since I tend to believe the statisticians are on to something. But I freely admit that the statistical arguments are way over my head.

by Tim S. on Aug 30, 2008 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm no statistician either

It doesn’t mean understanding what is actually being measured is beyond my mental grasp. The box score metrics are more or less the same, Berri is just annoying. I’m pretty sure Dave has a “Berri” AND “controversy” google alert, and we don’t need him to show up.

by hscs on Aug 30, 2008 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rosenbaum's critique of Berri, and Berri's defense,

is beyond my mental grasp, I’m afraid. I’ve read them both, but I’m not in a position to take sides. As far as I can tell, Rosenbaum accuses Berri of using a fudge factor, and Berri denies it. I don’t know who is right.

As for Berri being annoying, I do notice that he annoys others, but he has never annoyed me. Those he annoys seem to fall into two groups: those who find all statistical analyses annoying, and those who think Berri’s statistical analysis is wrong. I’m guessing you fall into the latter category.

by Tim S. on Aug 31, 2008 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

I qualify as a statistician

I suppose, and I’d summarize the annoyance with Berry as follows (this is an in-a-nutshell summary, as I see it):

1. His statistical analysis, while complex and innovative, didn’t seem to yield demonstrably better results than several existing ones.
2. It didn’t necessarily have the theoretical backing I’d expect to see in a model that consistently predicted basketball.
3. He acted as if he were the first guy to ever tackle the problem.
4. And as if no one else could possibly have done something similar up to that point.
5. Or have valid criticisms of his work.

You actually see this a lot in academics. It’s a bit of a turf war between disciplines. Berri, as an economist, sort of came to the thing thinking “I’m the first economist to look at this” and, implicitly “I’m the first guy who knows how to use serious numbers”. However, there’s a whole group of basketball statisticians who are actually pretty smart guys and have a lot to say on it, who Berri was needlessly dismissive over. Especially since it’s turned out some of their work is in many ways superior to his own.

by Sports2 on Aug 31, 2008 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

What other statisticians do you have in mind?

I know Berri has criticized Rosenbaum (but not before Rosenbaum criticized Berri). I also know Berri has criticized Hollinger (although that relationship seems much more genteel). I have, however, seen Berri say kind things about Dean Oliver and Wayne Winston and other basketball statisticians.

by Tim S. on Aug 31, 2008 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, criticism is different from a failure to recognize guys in the first place

http://www.wagesofwins.com/WOWPreface.htm

If you read that, for example, you don’t see anything like “Hey, there’s this great forum called APBR with a lot of smart folks who’ve tackled this problem”. You see references to the AER, and bringing the divined wisdom of economics to the masses.

by Sports2 on Sep 1, 2008 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Berri seems to have a cordial relationship

with Kevin Pelton, the moderator of the APBR forum. Pelton sometimes comments on Berri’s articles.

by Tim S. on Sep 1, 2008 6:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

So what? I didn't say they were all threatening to kill each other

You asked asked why he seemed to annoy, and I’m simply pointing out my observation. People can be annoyed with someone at one point and say good things about them at others :)

by Sports2 on Sep 1, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Even without crossing on WoW

I find the analysis pretty retrospective.

1. I think strength of competition in the league has generally improved over the past couple years and especially in the Eastern Conference.

2. Even throwing out last year’s monstrosity, it’s pretty debatable whether the Bulls had or have the room for steady improvement (meaning, they relied on Wallace and PJ Brown a lot a couple years back, and their other players/additions didn’t improve enough to offset the decline and departure of those guys.

by Sports2 on Aug 30, 2008 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Noah has the potential to be

better than Wallace, but potential is a tricky thing. More often than not it doesn’t seem to pan out as expected. I still have hopes for Tyrus Thomas, too, and maybe Derrick Rose will be great and not merely good. Maybe Deng will finally blossom into a top star. But I think it is more likely that the Bulls are, at best, still a good supporting cast in search of a couple of superstars. And superstars are hard to find.

by Tim S. on Aug 30, 2008 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Consistent with environment

The basic argument was the Bulls had an across-the-board drop last year with no mathematical justification. That would be consistant with the players all being fed up with the coaching situation (if not entire management situation), which a lot, if not most people, would say happened.

Given a complete newbie for a coach (even with veteran assistants), I could see where you wouldn’t know how to slot the production, given last season’s meltdown. Thus, if things calm down and the players react more in line with previous years, it might be a winning season, if not hello lottery.

A mathematical formula for mental factors effecting the team would be something out of Asimov’s Foundation Trilogy.

It doesn’t prove or disprove anything, except perhaps add a different form of evidence that last season was really strange and poorly handled by everyone involved.

by ziffle on Aug 29, 2008 10:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Last year everything went wrong.

And I mean everything. It is doubtful those kind of stars will align against the Bulls for another season. It might not all be perfect but I get the sense that the Bulls future is in the hands of the players this time and they will have to make out of it what they will. A number of players who felt they were not given a chance in previous years must show their true colors. Deng needs to step up into a leadership role that matches his new paycheck. Rose needs to be given playing time to develop (unlike what happened to rookies of recent years). Hughes needs to warm the bench. I can see how if certain things happen things will be good.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Aug 30, 2008 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

HSCS and others who are more quantitative in their approach,

cranscape’s posting brings the following question to my mind: how much of the Bulls’ disaster was indicated by statistics last year before it actually unraveled in front of our eyes? And also, how accurately did statistics (or your own favored statistical approach as opposed to those favored by others) predict the final records and playoff results? I’m just curious here.

I mean, I’ll admit I’m way too reliant on the anecdotal rather than the statistical, so I’m wondering how predictive stats were for you, in retrospect.

"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris

by bullhockey on Aug 30, 2008 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd be interested

in seeing how that Detroit series looks on paper. Not to mention closing the regular season off losing that very much needed game against the Nets. Our last “good” season is a hard one to figure out for me, as hard as our terrible year. We mad a second half push for the playoffs, but the majority of teams we played that that second half were below 50 teams. That’s just how the schedule fell and how we looked so “strong” going into the playoffs. Then we played the weakened Miami in the first round and killed them… Perhaps that partially added to the predictions we’d do even better the next year and end up in the eastern conference finals. I’d suspect that statistically we’d look good against that last string of below 50 teams and good against the weak Miami, but the complete unraveling in the Detroit series seems to have been ignored in the predictions of most people.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Aug 31, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Statistics are not deterministic, they're descriptive

And we often lose sight of that. A statistic is a recording of a past event. It describes something that happened. It can only determine the future insofar as what happened in the past is reflective of what happens in the future.

The other thing people lose site of is just how endogenous the variables are we’re dealing with. The output of a basketball team is winning by scoring more points than your opponent, and you’re only one of about 10 guys that take court for your team. Getting a definitive statistical measure from that is simply not possible, especially when the different guys on the court have different roles. It’s a bit like asking which is more responsible for cutting the grass, the lawnmower or the guy pushing it. You can’t separate the two very easily.

Using advanced statistics attempts to separate them out, but you basically run into a few problems:
1. Not enough data points until you’re well on in a player’s career. Since definitively finding out about a guy doesn’t matter much after ten seasons, what’s the point?
2. Not enough situations to really see what’s going on. Like, there’s no way to really statistically say Jamal Crawford sucks if you acknowledge the fact he had to play next to guys like Ronald Dupree and Chris Jeffries. Or to separate how Deng and Gordon play with a good interior defense vs. how they play with a crappy one.

All this is not to say that the stats aren’t worth looking at, but in my opinion they can only serve as the starting point for discussion. You look at the numbers and then look at the obvious non-statistical factors. When making a prediction, I try to look at a player’s statistical output using various measures, then factor in:

1. Age. Is he getting better or worse? I was pushing to trade Wallace by halfway through his first season here because it seemed obvious he was falling off quickly, although the stats didn’t reflect this tremendously until this past season. The trends in the stats, however, reflected it even in his first year.

2. Teammates. What quality guys is the subject playing with, and what roles do they fill. Is the player being asked to do more or less than he should in ways that are likely to show up in his stats?

3. Competition. Who did the subject accumulate his stats against, and how does he rate out compared to what other, outwardly similar players generate?

by Sports2 on Aug 31, 2008 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great post

Stats are important, but they’re value comes from understanding their context and drawing out significant realities. They are evidence and can be valuable in the right hands, but I’m sure most of us have been victimized by rockheaded beancounters who assumed their impressive math gpa’s translated into superior intellect in all things of any significance (including basketball). It’s the zealots who tarnish the art and the science.

by California Al on Sep 1, 2008 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe the 06-07 season was the aberration.

From years of reading Hollinger, it would seem that possibly, it was the 06-07 season that was less like who they really are. Everyone said at the time that they were playing above their heads and that strong effort and defense was winning them games more then talent. We are talking about a team that only had one player that was in the All-Star discussion, let alone actually having a star. I think we have a great group of role players. Even if Luol becomes an All-Star this year, he is not a superstar. He is a second fiddle, whether we have a first fiddle or not. I just don’t think it is realistic to expect them to get back to that. It could, if Rose is the next Chris Paul and turns Deng and TT into All-Stars, but I wouldn’t expect it, I would be pleasantly surprised. I agree with Tim S., 42 or so wins, better than last year, but look to 09-10 to be good again. I can wait that long, I waited through the Tim Floyd!

by Unrealcity on Aug 30, 2008 1:40 AM CDT reply actions  

it is kind of hard to see the 06-07 Bulls as an abberation

when they made the playoffs the 2 previous years as well. The team over that 3 year period had been getting better.

by DangerMouse on Aug 30, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting analysis

and it’s no surprise the Bulls couldn’t throw a beach ball into the ocean last year.

by messwiththebull on Aug 30, 2008 7:06 AM CDT reply actions  

a couple of responses to the article...

id say the biggest change from 06´-07´ to 07´-08´ was our defense. it took a complete nose dive. as a result we missed out on lots of easy points off of turn overs and it seemed like the bigger the other teams lead the lower our fg % was.

um other than that, id sign and trade bg in a heartbeat for AK47 and Brewer…i wonder if there is any validity to the rummor.

by jocrucial on Aug 30, 2008 7:51 PM CDT reply actions  

The actual big difference in the two years was...................

the fact that we had an EFFECTIVE Ben Wallace in the first year. There was a reason he got all those awards, championships and money!

The statistics support that.

by hhirb on Aug 31, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

It wasn't just Wallace, though.

That’s the point of Berri’s article. All of the Bulls’ best players underperformed last year.

by Tim S. on Aug 31, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Which he freely admitted.

Statistics can tell us what happened, but can’t always tell us why.

by Tim S. on Aug 31, 2008 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why is usually speculation.

Unless the players tell us, “yeah, I was upset that they were talking about me in the trade rumors, so I lost focus”, then all anyone can do is speculate. But in the case of last year, there has been a lot of speculation that seems to make a lot of sense. So we discuss what we think, but no one but the players can tell us definitively why.

by Unrealcity on Sep 1, 2008 1:35 PM CDT reply actions  

They should be able to bounce back if the guys can focus. That’s the job of the GM and coach to help.

by mindfeck on Sep 2, 2008 8:35 AM CDT reply actions  

I'm a statistician...

… by training and I found WoW to be pretty convincing. Oliver’s work I didn’t really get, it seemed overly convoluted.

Still it’s right to say, as people have above, that these stats should be taken as descriptions of what has happened not what will happen. A players performance in the context of one team might change dramatically with another team, or another year.

by PeteLDN on Sep 6, 2008 3:24 PM CDT reply actions  

Are you referring to Oliver's work in Basketball on Paper?

  I’ve never thought of wages of wins as that accurate of a metric. That being said, I think Berri is logical and I often agree with what he says, despite not trusting his metric to be that great of a quality indicator.
  What I like about Oliver’s work is that he uses some very simple metrics (that don’t need a lot of assumptions worked into them) that are very powerful. He then works with the variation (as opposed to just the mean) and looks at how that variation can be used to produce wins. It’s not important, I am just surprised that a statistician would prefer Berri.

by Jamaicanpi on Sep 6, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah Basketball on Paper

I actually really liked the stuff about variation. I think Basketball on Paper was a really good for explaining team performance as a whole, but I just personally found Berri’s way of allocating individual performance more intuitive and his book a much easier read.

by PeteLDN on Sep 6, 2008 5:53 PM CDT reply actions  

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