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It looks that way. I don't think they want to lose their leading scorer for nothing. Maybe they do, I don't know.

Ben Gordon, on the Bulls limiting their offer to what's left under the luxury tax, and sticking to the scoring = $$$ talking points.

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maybe this isn't the worst ploy by the Bulls

by crying luxury tax, they’ll pretend they cannot offer any more than the ~$8m starting salary. They won’t take any extra money back in a sign/trade, making that option even more complicated and unlikely for Ben and his agent to pull off.

If you read the quotes, he really doesn’t sound like he wants the qualifying offer though. So maybe he ‘caves’ and accepts 3/$27 (or $2/19 with a player option – whatever is max allowed under the tax). and tries free agency some other time.

Then Paxson can move on to trading other guys and freeing up salary. that, uh, could’ve gone to Gordon (huh?)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 2, 2008 1:46 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

i know paxson has said that he won't make any moves before gordon and deng deals are done

But couldn’t these negotiations work if Pax just freed up space (giving up Noc, Gooden, Hughes, whoever) before making Gordon a deal?

Or is that not even an option…

by swede2287 on Aug 2, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes...

that would free up cap room and make the negotiations easier… IF, they wanted to give him more money.

By not doing anything else before he signs, they can hold tight to this excuse and they don’t have to give him anywhere near the contract he is looking for.

by kidronmusic on Aug 2, 2008 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It might also be

that the reason Gordon is being patient is that he’s been told that Paxson is working on freeing some space to up his offer.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Aug 2, 2008 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maggette money it's looking like

Ben doesn’t want the QO and he doesn’t want to play overseas. He has no guaratanee of getting a better deal next year with a reserved market still holding onto 2010 dollars. He would be risking a lot by picking the QO for an uncertain reward.

It sounds like Ben realizes this which is why it seems like he’s pushing for a sign-and-trade, as difficult as it may be, with his “you don’t need 29 teams, only one” comment.

Who will get their situation resolved first: BG or Iggy?

by messwiththebull on Aug 2, 2008 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ben has a point.

As I watched the 2007 playoff game against Miami, it was clear that BG is the closest to a go-to guy. If they lose BG, they are going to scrap for wins. You can’t count on Hughes or Heinrich and Rose since they are not go-to guys. This team will be like a baseball team without and effective closer.

by Fastbreak on Aug 2, 2008 2:59 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Ben's not a closer, though

When’s the last time Ben hit a last second shot? I remember one against the Knicks I think three seasons ago. In clutch situations, Gordon shot 37.7% last year. Not saying anyone else on the Bulls is an effective closer, just that Ben is Todd Jones.

by YaoPau on Aug 2, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh

the ‘closer’ analogy is pretty weak to begin with, but that’s a good line.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 2, 2008 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Big difference

Every team the Bulls played knew Gordon would shoot and throw about 3 men on him.

Pretty hard for a 6’2 guard to get a decent shot off with 3 dudes all around him.

In his rookie year, the reason he was so good is that no one knew he would be the go to guy

by Option27 on Aug 2, 2008 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

To his credit

I think he’ll be more dangerous if Rose does become a clutch threat or Deng decides try and become one

by Option27 on Aug 2, 2008 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

exactly why he's not worth

more than $10 mm…and undersized “go to” sg

by Jbonelli on Aug 2, 2008 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And... um... 59% the year before that, 63% before that, 71% before that.

Okay, so he’s not Kobe Bryant or LeBron James or Dwyane Wade and the more he’s the focal point of the offense in crunch time, the worse he is. So… you get a better offensive player w/ the ball in his hands and Gordon’s clutchiness comes right back. I think they got that in Rose. Bingo, bango. Sorted!

by tyger1147 on Aug 2, 2008 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure if you just made those stats up

to argue against small sample sizes in general, or if you just read off the wrong stats. Here are the real numbers:

2008: 37.7%
2007: 36.4%
2006: 47.5%
2005: 47.6%

You could be right that Rose will help those percentages rise back up to ‘05-’06 levels, and I hope he does. After all, Noah isn’t the only Bull who’s been clutch enough to win an NCAA title…

by YaoPau on Aug 2, 2008 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My fault. I read the wrong numbers.

I was quoting his “winning percentage” in those games, based upon how the team did (net points-wise, I think). The winning percentage this past year was 36.7% so when I saw that, I just thought that’s what you were looking at.

by tyger1147 on Aug 2, 2008 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rose had better be the go-to guy with or without Gordon

in game situations, I want the ball in his hands, either to score, get to the line, or to create an easy bucket. I’d feel the same way about Paul and D Will on their teams.

by messwiththebull on Aug 2, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

works for me

though I’d rather he pass to Gordon after creating than, well…anyone else on the team.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 2, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Easy buckets...

...easier w/ a good shooter?

by tyger1147 on Aug 2, 2008 5:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

but I’m not sure if you need to spend $10-$12m for that. Maybe you do. Peja is getting paid around that for a similar role with a presumably similar PG. Is he worth it? Because that’s the role I forsee BG having in a Rose-led offense.

by messwiththebull on Aug 3, 2008 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Peja had one of the best 3-pt shooting seasons of all time.

32nd most attempts in a season ever
at the 4th-best % in the league

When you’re going to have 3 of 5 starters on a rookie contract, yeah, it’s worth it.

by tyger1147 on Aug 4, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How was it

that Philly had a better points differential and a better W/L AFTER AI LEFT? It’s just impossible; it must have been an aborition; who can explane it.

by hlac on Aug 2, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you ok?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 2, 2008 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Aug 2, 2008 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is that...

a- abortion

b- apparition

c- abberation

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Aug 2, 2008 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

why not d...

an aborted apparition of AI that led to an aberration in points differential.

by CubFan81 on Aug 2, 2008 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

d-

Aborigine, e- aubergine d- Ernest Borgnine

by Cannoli on Aug 2, 2008 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because Andre Miller is better at defense and running an offense than Iverson?

Because everyone on the Sixers were just tired of the nonstop saga of Philly’s love/hate relationship with Iverson? I don’t know, but you’re insinuating teams do better when their leading scorers get shipped off. Maybe if BG was traded for another shooting guard the team would be better off. Letting him go and getting nothing in return? That’s just stupid. I’m sorry BG isn’t 6’6, but if Michael Redd and Corey Maggette can start in the NBA, so can Gordon, and he’s definitley worthy of 9-10 million a year.

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Aug 2, 2008 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

But the whole thing is…he’s not worthy of 12-13. I’m really hoping they can come to a 3/30ish type of deal (I guess it would be slightly less, but you know what I mean). Having BG around would help keep the lane semi-open for Rose. Without BG, teams will be able to pack the shit out of the lane because there will be no one to hit the broad side of a barn from the outside, besides Noc, who might not even be around.

Now, is this concern worth overpaying for? I guess that’s the constant debate here, and I even find myself somewhat flip-flopping on the issue; it’s tough, but it seems to me like the best thing for both sides here is probably a shorter term deal. The QO screws both sides, and I really don’t see Ben leaving for Europe unless some ridiculous offer comes out of nowhere. And really, what are the odds of a sign and trade? Probably extremely low.

I just want this thing to be resolved some way or another so we can start thinking more about the near future and what kind of roster moves we need to make, with or without BG.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Aug 2, 2008 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm starting to warm to Gordon

I’ve never been a big fan, but if we trot out Rose, Hughes, Luol, Tyrus, Noah… that’s the worst-shooting starting lineup in NBA history. We’d get demolished, and that’s not going to help Rose develop one bit.

If we overpay Gordon by a couple million, so what? We’ll have all of this year to get back under the luxury tax, and I can’t imagine a situation where we wouldn’t be able to at least trade him for an expiring contract in the future. There isn’t a contender in the league who wouldn’t love to add Ben Gordon in a deadline deal. But it’s important that we have him these next two years.

by YaoPau on Aug 2, 2008 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm starting to feel the same way, but

...shhhh, don’t tell anybody please…

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Aug 2, 2008 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yah, who wouldn't love to trade for

an overpaid, undersized scorer…i mean are you serious…we already had an overpaid, undersized PF and look what we got..larry fing hughes

by Jbonelli on Aug 2, 2008 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

only The Corpse

brought zero to the table…at least Gordon can score, which is always a valued trait in the NBA.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Aug 2, 2008 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah those overrated points....who needs em?

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Aug 4, 2008 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Undersized gots nothing to do with it

Monta Ellis is getting 11 million a year and he’s even worse on defense than Gordon, but he’s worth it because he scored a couple extra points a game?

Gordon is Michael Redd, and is on a Ray Allen-esque career trajectory. To me, that’s easily worth 10-11 million.

We don’t have any superstars coming to Chicago anytime soon, I don’t see why having someone who can average 20 points a game is a bad thing.

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Aug 2, 2008 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's completely not the point

If you’re a team like the Celtics or Lakers all you need Ben to do is shoot and be okay at everything else. And I think he could handle that.

by potato0328 on Aug 2, 2008 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

which is why he

should have accepted last year’s offer..

by Jbonelli on Aug 2, 2008 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Aug 2, 2008 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This comment

is a cleverly disguised Airplane! joke. Obviously.

by Prevenge on Aug 3, 2008 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish

You discribe way to much credit to me.

by hlac on Aug 4, 2008 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

opportunity cost

Yes, he may not be worth 12mil, but he’s worth 18 points a game, during a season of turmoil. Both the bulls and bg have to meet in the middle to get this deal done. The bulls are anticipating moving Noc, and possible Hughes. The bulls need their leading scoring back.

by chicago-homesick-blues on Aug 2, 2008 6:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If the Bulls don't value Gordon, then they should just sign JR Smith to replace his production

I don’t care if he’s crazy, there’s no reason why we should watch a team that is going to average 85 points a game.

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Aug 2, 2008 7:56 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Sadly, it appears more and more likely that we might not actually unload Hinrich for a long while

Which makes me want to break my keyboard over my head. Ah well.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Aug 2, 2008 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depending on what they could get for Hinrich...

...Straight-up, I’d rather have him over Smith. As long Kirk isn’t going to be Mr. Mopey and poison the locker room.

by tyger1147 on Aug 2, 2008 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, well Hinrich costs a shitload more than JR would.

I wouldn’t mind an offense/defense platoon featuring JR and Thabo at the 2 if BG isn’t around.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Aug 2, 2008 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually...I would love that

heh.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Aug 2, 2008 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it would be similar to what Utah has

with Brewer/Korver splitting time, which has worked out fairly well for them.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Aug 2, 2008 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

JR Smith is a dunderhead.

I don’t want him anywhere near Rose.

by tyger1147 on Aug 2, 2008 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

assuming we could control him.

JR smith could very easily be more productive than BG or Kirk and cheaper. I am a huge fan of signing smith. i see massive potential with him. and him maturing is not a matter of if it happens but when it happens. i say give him a two year 11 million contract and negotiate a sign n trade with gordon…....for a solid big with offensive skills….start hinrich, thabo, deng, post we acquire, and noah…...off the bench, rose, smith, noc, gooden, gray…....first squad should be able to keep games close, second should be able to beat up on second unit of pretty much any other team in the league…. probably not gonna make much sense to alot ofyou….but im kinda tipsy right now, and it makes sense to me!!!!!!!!

by masputo on Aug 2, 2008 9:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

oops.

forgot to hit reply on the previous comment

by masputo on Aug 2, 2008 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Ricky Davis and Ron Artest and Stephon Marbury...

...all those guys “matured”. Yep, just a matter of ‘when’, not if.

by tyger1147 on Aug 2, 2008 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

seriously though....

your forming an opinion about the guy based on other players immaturity? if smith hasnt matured too much in the past couple of years you can probably look at his teammates as the main reason. carmelo and AI…wow what role models….being put around the right players is essential for a players development on and off the court. as I’ve stated before, we have a good bunch of players who can be a positive influence on him.

by masputo on Aug 2, 2008 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather make that projection based off of human nature...

...than just hoping the Mopey Iowan and everyone has some magical influence on him. It’s not like PJ Brown or Byron Scott did him any good, either.

by tyger1147 on Aug 2, 2008 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Bulls want Gordon at a reasonable salary. Gordon wants to be with the Bulls

at a higher salary. Paxson wants to to see what the Bulls will be like with Rose and Gordon. Gordon has no offers and doesn’t want the QO. Folks somehow this is going to work out.

I remember the 12/31/2007 game at the UC against the Magic. The Bulls had changed coaches, were 2-0 under Boylan and this was as big a game as we had last year. The Magic played really well. Lewis, Turkaglu, Arroya and Nelson were on fire. Gordon was a monster. The Magic were all over him and he scored 39 points. I write about this game because it was an important game and BG is one of the few players that can step up in these key situations. What stands out to me is we were down by 3 in regulation. The Bulls had the ball and the Magic swarmed Gordon. The knew he was going to take the shot. Gordon got some space, with Magic players all around him he made an unbelievable three with 6.7 seconds left to tie the game and send it into overtime. My other memory is that we had two chances to ice the game. We were up by 4 or 5 with a few minutes left in the game. Both Hinrich and Duhaon had wide open threes that would have given us the win. They were wide open because the Magic were double and triple teaming Gordon. Both choked and missed. I want to see Rose and Gordon on the floor during crunch time. My feeling is this will get done. I don’t know how but it will get done.

by chgobr on Aug 3, 2008 7:17 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

How effective could this be at the end of a game.....

Rose to either drive or set up Gordon, Gooden, Deng or Gray?

by hhirb on Aug 3, 2008 7:45 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Gray? Really?

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Aug 3, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude's got skills

Just wait in 2 years when we’re trotting a lineup of Kirk, Thabo, Nocioni, Omer Asik, and Gray.

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Aug 3, 2008 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

...and that's when I find a new team. Heh.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Aug 3, 2008 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Omer's Knee injured

IIRC…Reason why Asik wasn’t playing for Turkey against USA.
Surgery was being considered, last report I saw.
Or maybe this was just Gray’s dream that I picked up on my Blogomatic Rumormeister 300.

by Cholla on Aug 3, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The reason I mentioned Gray is that

I thought he was supposed to be a scorer.

by hhirb on Aug 3, 2008 2:28 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well I guess Noah would be the choice then

but I thought he was even a worse scorer than Gray.

by hhirb on Aug 3, 2008 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Noah...

Noah can get you a put back dunk or a alley-oop.

Gray has a few more post moves than Noah, but, if your talking about a last second drive by Rose, I’d rather have Noah on the floor.

by kidronmusic on Aug 3, 2008 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess my point was BG probably will help a lot more at the end of a game

if the other guard handles the ball and can finish or pass to other shooters as well as BG.

by hhirb on Aug 4, 2008 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

BG is a nice option for Rose’s drive and kick game… I don’t think anybody would or could dispute that.

by kidronmusic on Aug 4, 2008 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

The biggest thing people need to consider is having only option sucks. Having two options makes it harder for defenses to stop you. Having two options that can do things in different ways? Even better still.

by Sports2 on Aug 4, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Is there a formula

that tallies shooting percentage in different categories of shot selection?

For example, is there a measurement for spot up, catch and shoot, shooting percentage? One for dribble, pull up, shooting percentage? Running/driving/moving, shooting percentage?

by NBA Observer on Aug 4, 2008 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

a formula?

it’s called watching and game-tracking. I wouldn’t be surprised if some teams had that info, but nothing that’s public.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 4, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't you want to know

why Ben Wallace fades away for all his shot attempts?

by NBA Observer on Aug 4, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

he got his shot blocked in 8th grade

and vowed: never again.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 4, 2008 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

not a formula, but a service called Synergy Sports probably tracks all those sorts of things and more.

go search TrueHoop’s archives to find out more about it if you’ve never heard of it. I believe most teams in the league use it, and apparently it’s going to be incorporated into NBA Live 09 to make the game even more realistic and up to date. (For instance if Kobe goes through a trend where he settles for more jumpers from the corner, when you play against the Lakers in the game, Kobe will be camping in the corner more than he usually would.) It’s a great service.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 4, 2008 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks

I’ll check out Synergy.

by NBA Observer on Aug 4, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

whatever prescience you claim to possess

Is being reminded 4 months later about Synergy the opposite of that? or at least some kind of side-effect?

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 4, 2008 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh

There’s a wayback link to Sam Zell to be found.

Keep looking.

by NBA Observer on Aug 4, 2008 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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