Two options...
by Agusnico on Aug 2, 2008 10:15 AM CDT
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PrintI've been going over what can happen during the off-season and, as expected, nothing out of the ordinary happened(obviously, beside drafting Derrick Rose). The Bulls roster remains practically the same one when the season ended. The new coach had, prior to the summer league, the same coaching experience than most of us. The trade market for Chicago remains something that is off-limits. The contract extensions will probably end up either in overpayed players or in an unjustified talent loss...
But besides all of the above, I was wondering what could be best for the Bulls right now. Paxson has said many times that he believed that one of this team's strenghts is depth. As we could see last year that was not the case. Still, we have a roster made up of, at least, 9 players that could/should/would like to play 25/30 minutes a night. As I've said before, the roster remains escentially the same. We lost a guard in the free agency and we added one via-draft (no, I'm not saying that Duhon and Rose are similar). So, we still have a logjam at guard positions and we king of have a logjam at power forward position now that Deng signed his extension and Nocioni will pretty much have to get his minutes playing at the 4 spot.
Now, this can be good or bad depending on the person behind the wheel of this team. I agree with Paxson that Rose should not be handed the resposibility of running a team right away. Not that he has to earn his minutes, he should be assured 20/25 minutes per game, at least. However, I don't think that Rose has to take all the pressure of being the leader of a team that, today, is at least mediocre.
So here are the two scenarios that I could think of regarding the remainder of the off-season.
1) Keep the roster pretty much as it is. That is, wait to see if Gordon comes to his senses and accepts a contract worth a bit less that his market value or just wait for him to sign the Qualifying Offer. Then, if a trade comes up, consider it, but only if it comes up. By the end of october, divide the team into two units. A "A" Unit of half court, big, and mostly white players: Hinrich, Hughes(the exception to the last requirement), Nocioni, Gooden and Gray. A "B" Unit of up tempo, athletic, and young players: Rose, Gordon, Deng, Thomas and Noah. Both unit should play more or less the same amount of minutes than the other, eliminating the issue of starters versus bench players. Both unit remain fixed throughout the year, unless a player is injured. In such case, Sefolosha, Nichols, Simmons or any other that may be signed down the road would substitute the injured player. This way, the Bulls would have two options when playing different teams. If the opposing team is slow, we start the athletic unit. If the opposing team is bad on defense, we use the half court unit. Or whatever the case it is and one of the units fits the bill better. The number of minutes a unit plays a game depends on the opponent.
2) Taking a chance in the trade market. I would really like to see Rose play tons of minutes in his rookie season. However, I stick to what I said, I don't think he should be the leader of the team just yet. So, why not pulling a 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 player trade for some former All-Star to surround Rose, Deng and,if you like, Thomas and Noah. I know it is not the best option out there but I wouldn't mind trading Nocioni, Gooden and Sefolosha for Vince Carter. Or Gordon and Nocioni for Andrei Kirilenko. You can get some established players whose contract expire by the time Rose is more or less developed. The Bulls can solve the logjam issues and take some pressure off Rose's shoulders by bringing some established with high expectations. I think a line up of Rose, Carter, Deng, Kirilenko and Noah is good enough to compete for the playoffs in the East.
I think that what this team is really lacking is some creativity. I don't think the Bulls are as bad as they were last year but I think they are still .500 team.
I hope Paxson really does something meaningful to improve the Bulls whether it is giving players a very defined roles, shortening the rotation, trading players or whatever...
GO BULLS!!
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ugh
wait to see if Gordon comes to his senses and accepts a contract worth a bit less that his market value or just wait for him to sign the Qualifying Offer
Taking less, or signing the qualifying offer is the opposite of “comes to his senses”. Why would Gordon sign a long term contract for less money, and have the sixth man brick hanging on his neck?
because he took the risk of not signing it last year
had a bad year, and now he wants more money…how does that work>
deng
barely got more, except in incentives.
he’s also 2 (?) years younger than gordon, and i think is more widely valued around the league.
...and not to beat a dead horse
but he’s effective on both ends, which is something that teams widely covet.
ducks
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
Both of you have good reasons...
....but neither of them include “played poorly last season so he shouldn’t get more money.”
but he didn't get much more (guaranteed)
is my point, and since he’s overall more valuable than gordon (imo, and clearly in the opinion of bulls management), it’s easier to overlook his worse season. especially since one could argue that his injuries may have hampered his ability to come back fully this season but are confident he will bounce back the next. that’s really what the money is for – confidence he will rebound alright. they aren’t showing that sort of faith in gordon.
oy
By the end of october, divide the team into two units. A “A” Unit of half court, big, and mostly white players: Hinrich, Hughes(the exception to the last requirement), Nocioni, Gooden and Gray.
The ‘A’, of course, standing for aryan. ‘B’ for… well, I can’t really think of what B would stand for.
This would be a fantastic strategy for a first time coach to implement. (And Drew Gooden is black!)
by YaoPau on Aug 2, 2008 10:26 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Drew Gooden is black?
Check out this pic. He is as white as Scola. And I know Scola is white beacuse I’ve seen him in person here in Argentina… Hehe…
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/drew_gooden/index.html
About the strategy, I don’t if it is necessarily a good strategy, but at least is something…
I think it would be good for the player to really know the four other players’ strenghts and weaknesses a he is playing with by playing TONS of minutes with them.
well, you sure distinguished yourself
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 2, 2008 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
There's that pesky language barrier thing again.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
Or...
We could forget Aaron Gray and play a smaller lineup (cue everyone cringing) – and change the names, the “L” team (Lottery – should play more):
Rose
Gordon
Deng
Thomas
Noah
and the “S” team (Scrappy – should play less):
Hinrich
Hughes
Sefolosha
Nocioni
Gooden
That gets Aaron Gray off the floor and Thabo on it. Hopefully the perimeter defense could make up for the lack of size in the frontcourt.
I do like the idea of having set lineups
Hockey teams have used set lines for decades with great success. Yet in year 6 of the Paxson regime, in which he’s managed to keep his core together, we didn’t have a single unit play more than 200 minutes together last year, and only five units played over 100 minutes together. That’s completely batshit unheard of!
Most played lines of NBA teams:
Pistons: 1139 minutes
Celtics: 1052 minutes
Spurs: 420 minutes
Lakers: 388 minutes, 272 minutes, 232 minutes (3 lineups over 200 minutes, even with their injuries and trades)
Bulls: 194 minutes
Skiles had a tough year, Boylan was crappy, and Griffin/Wallace might’ve screwed up our chemistry… but I think the main reason why we didn’t play well together last year is because there wasn’t a single lineup that was given a chance to play well together. A 5-man lineup can only jell so much averaging 4mpg together.
That is one crazy bunch of stats
Folks in Detroit were talking about their improved bench, and look at that, 1139 minutes for likely their starting 5….
It’s funny that the Spurs lineup changed as much, I bet that’s because of the whole Finley/Barry nonsense.
Still it should go to show what happens to a team when nobody can play consistent minutes. Boylan should never coach again.
Im just throwing this out there but
what about Josh Howard. I think Dallas might be getting tired of him and all because of his latest arrest. Idk if hes a 2 or a 3 but i think he can play the 2 which would give us that big scoring option we need and want with Rose. Would a sign and trade with BG work? Howard is making 9 mil this year and 10 and 11 mil the next 2 years.
He's definately not something we need, another SF and one with problems
Howard won’t be a PF, and is amongst the last guys we need now that we have Deng.
What about a Gordon-Hinrich trade to the Heat for Marion and Daquan Cook….Riley doesn’t seem enamoured with Marion, and has been enamored with Hinrich in the past (and having a Wade-Gordon-Beasley lineup would be a thing to see.
For the Bulls, we play the odds with Marion at PF. If it works, hooray we resign him next year for a 3-4 yr contract at the $12M mark/yr. If it doesn’t, well then we have more money to possibly resign Tyrus to a long term deal and make a run at Lamar Odom, Manu Ginobili, Boozer, Camby or some combination of the free agents out there….
A Rose/Hughes/Deng/Marion/Noah/Ty2/Thabo/Noc linenup will do us well…..
Bias towards Hinrich: Huh - well yeah
Derrick Rose will start right away in regard to his inevitable good performance against Hinrich this fall for the PG position, I know it. Look, the sooner he start, the better. He have to let his actions of being a leader speak vivid tones. Especially sense he was drafted first overall. It’s no need to give Hinrich another chance. Hinrich has proved he lacks vocals to gain respect from the team. He also lacks leadership attributes, another thing, Hinrich don’t like to take contact and pass the ball. So why would you not let Rose play from day 1, you’re wasting his time. He’s a point, not a combo. It’s not like Hinrich will become extraordinary next season.
One thing I don't understand
Trading our players (Hinrich, Gordon, Gooden, etc, etc) this year for players that have one or two years left and watching them walk in a year or two is okay because it will create cap space when we want it. But letting BG walk this year is wrong because we will ‘lose” too much.
Go figure.
Really?
A sign and trade for Gordon nets a player in return. Trading Hinrich won’t happen unless it nets a solid player in return. Gooden isn’t going anywhere.
So, how is trading for a player (not every trade is done for cap space, and Hughes’ expiring will create enough of that) the same as letting him walk for nothing in return? If the Bulls don’t want BG, fine sign/trade him for someone else who can help the team. You don’t just give up talented players without trying to get something in return.
I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 4, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
That was a lot of specific qualifiers...
Listen, I understand your point, and I perhaps belittled myself by calling it confusing. And I do think that a sign & trade of Gordon is better than him walking away… IF, you get back a solid player on a friendly deal.
I’m just saying, and what I thought hlac said, that trading for expiring deals, isn’t that different than letting a player expire and letting him go.
Nobody wants to see us let any decent player go for nothing, but lot’s of people here are posting idea’s for salary dump type of trades.
Basically, it's because the Bulls have holes.
And they’d likely spend the money on someone not as good anyway.
And Gordon can’t walk away this year for “nothing” anyway. Unless he goes to Europe which I don’t think anyone believes is a possibility.
Right,
When I spoke of Gordon walking away, I meant after next year.
Really, I wasn’t advocating letting Gordon walk, cause I think the QO is terrible for the team. It would obviously lead to a plethora of issues next year, and then Gordon walks for nothing.
I don’t see a sign & trade happening, they are so hard to work out, and while the Bulls do have holes, there are very few players out there that can help our team that fit the bill for a possible S&T. I think we should sign Gordon to a big 2 year deal, with a team option for a third.
by kidronmusic on Aug 4, 2008 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Make a big deal of two years with third as option doesn't help.
It will be even more difficult to do for the Bulls. The problem is that they don’t want to pay the luxury tax (or rather that they want to benefit from the money of those teams paying the luxury tax, or both for that matter). A 2 to 3 year fat deal will make it impossible to not hit the tax. If you work out a 6 year deal with Gordon, you can backload it so that you don’t pay the tax next year but still end up close to 10mil per average. With a 3 year deal, you don’t have enough years to pay only 8mil this year and have an average of 10mil in the end.
The Game chose him !
Right...
But I think they should pay the tax. It’s not going to happen, it’s just my opinion of what should happen. The Bulls are one of the most profitable teams in the league. They haven’t been very good lately, I think they should spend some extra to invest in this team for the next few years.
I agree we should get value back
Except I’ve noticed that a lot of the trades suggested on BaB have as their end objective clearing cap space in 2010 and nothing more. We should get “value” even for Hughes. Now if “value” is creating cap space, okay, but then don’t say “letting BG walk” doesn’t have value.
Letting Gordon walk doesn't help alleviate the current misappropriation of cap space
Likely reserves Hinrich and Noce have too many dollars and too many years committed to them. Moving one or both for cap space is understandable, as the Bulls wouldn’t likely be losing much actual production. Letting Gordon walk makes the team worse while retaining the two biggest obstacles to the team’s future movements.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
by snley on Aug 4, 2008 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Trades of Noce for cap space makes sense
Because losing him won’t be the end of the world. Thabo can just as easily fire up ill-advised 3s, and Noah will have to yell a little bit louder in the pre-game huddles. If the deadline approaches and Chris Mullin comes calling with a Harrington for Nocioni deal, I sure as hell accept that trade in order to save 9 million of cap space.
I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 4, 2008 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
So the priority is
Let Hinrich, Noc and Hughes go for cap space.
Sign BG for an amount that reflects his “true” value (which is in the mind of the beholder!!!).
Use the cap space and what we learn this coming year concerning player development, for a free agent in 2010.
Agreed??
by hlac on Aug 4, 2008 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Everything except for Hinrich
Hinrich is more valuable than cap space, if they are going to trade him it’s going to be for a serviceable player.
Hughes is probably going to stay on the team till 2010, I doubt any team takes him, and we’ll just have to wait for his contract to expire.
I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 4, 2008 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Is...
it too unrealistic to expect Hughes to be bought out?
Because...
his contract would still come off the books in 2010, Paxson may save some bucks in the buyout (Hughes and Paxson can negotiate the terms of the buyout) and will allow Hughes to sign with a contender (which may not be the case, since he stated that he cared about having fun on the court, not so much about winning)
That's not a bad thought
If Hughes could be convinced to give something like $5M, it’d get the Bulls another $2.4M to work with.
It cut off a lot of our flexibility the next two seasons though, and even though I’m not a huge fan of Hughes I think I’d rather have him if I have to pay him no matter what.
I think that’d be a last resort. The better option is to get rid of Nocioni because we need to do that anyway.
Exactly...
If the Bulls can do what they did with Skiles (bought his contract out but divided the buyout in a certain number of years) that would allow the Bulls to have more room to negotiate with Gordon…
Maybe, instead of paying Hughes the remaining 25 mil he is owed, they can settle for 22 or 23 and divide that in two payments. This year the gets 9 mil and next year (with Gooden off the books) 14 mil.
So, the Bulls have a bit more flexibility to negotiate with Gordon, plus, in such case, Hughes would not be the highest paid Bull, so if Gordon want to be the highest paid player he would be able to settle for 9+mil… hehe
pretty sure
that a buyout is automatically spread over the rest of the length of the contract with the same s (that is let’s say 45 of the contract is this year and 55% the next, then if the buyout is for less than the contract it will be 45 and 55% of whatever the buyout figure is each year).
PG: Derrick, Hinrich
SG: Hughes, Gordon
SF: Deng, Nocioni, Thabo
PF: Tyrus, Gooden
C: Noah, Gray
Thabo looks like he’s the odd man out. I expect a move to be made before the season.
Put
Thabo ahead of Gordon and Noc. Gordon and noc become the odd men out. Otherwise, it looks good.
Also, you should takes Hughes,
and throw him off of the page.
!!!Seriourly
If I was John Paxson, I’ll go after Deandre Jordan. We can use a cheap athletic big that can run the floor and block shots. Plus he has potential to be consistent. More important though, think they will pull that bias move in regard to Kirk. They did it to stop Duhon from playing, and the players said they felt Duhon was better at making them better. If Kirk become a virus, hurry and rid the guy.
!!!!!At least make your trade scenarios feasible
Kirk Hinrich for DeAndre Jordan makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The Clippers have Baron Davis and Eric Gordon, why the hell do they need Hinrich?
I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 2, 2008 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Hinrich can back up Davis
after he gets injured.
Gordon … let’s say Gordon passes to the side of the rim, not other players [or inside the rim].
We need size in the front court and we can get rid of Hinrich, also I didn’t say trade Hinrch for the guy. Comprehend my dude.
but the ability for him to reply at all is our enemy :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 3, 2008 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
maybe in following weeks
thabo, simmons, noc will be moved for a future draft pick.
later kirk should be moved before trade cut-off 2009.
2010
With the way Dwyane Wade has been playing ball this summer so far, I really think the Bulls should set some of their lineup up for 2010. I would really like to see him come home and play with the bulls/rose. Especially if he is going to play the kind of ball that he is playing now.
by CWhiteman on Aug 6, 2008 4:12 PM CDT reply actions
He also looks a lot more solid than he did two years ago.
Maybe he’ll be able to take the pounding now without ending up in the infirmary.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
Signing Wade to a max contract for 5 years is risky
That is given he is healthy 2 years from now.
by RogersPark Kris on Aug 7, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I still like the VC idea
he may not be the greatest player. But he sure is a upgrade over Ben Gordon. BG and Noce or BG and Gooden (since Nets want to reduce the cap) for Carter would be good for the Bulls.
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