Two great Luol/BG links

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2008 5:49 PM CDT Comment 116 comments

Andrew Wamboldt, going (very) deep into the Bulls luxury tax predicament following the Deng deal, and what it means for Gordon.
Kelly Dwyer, ruminating on all things Reinsdorf when it comes to this roster. Warning, it's sort of depressing.

0 recs | Comment 116 comments

Comments

I have only read the Dwyer post so far

But I think that’s an easy scapegoat thing to say that Reinsdorf doesn’t want to make this team a contender, and that’s why he overpaid Deng and might not retain Gordon and might keep all his young guys….

Sure we had 7 lottery picks or whatever from 1999-2002, but remember of those only 2 I’d argue turned into all star capable players (Elton Brand and Tyson Chandler-and we traded Brand for Chandler-and Tyson is only arguably all star caliber-though I’d say he deserves a mention. The rest were mostly busts: Crawford, Fizer, even Curry only ended up being a shadow of what folks thought, add Jay Williams to the BIG BUST list, even if that might have just been caused by injury, that definately set us back a few years. It took the young guys 5-6 years to be anything in this league (longer than Krause anticipated, cost Krause his job and then Pax started the regimine over again with Hinrich.

I could see us being skeptical of hanging onto both Deng and Gordon given the bad year we had….that was completely unexpected by everyone from inside the organization to most fans outside of the organization….

THe Ben Wallace signing (a MAJOR signing at the point when it was done) completely disproves Dwyer’s article…..it didn’t work out of course, and gives guys like Dwyer the ammo to say things like this, but it’s seldom that an owner who has absolutely no care for his team allows us to take someone who was a vital cog to the champion Pistons and the near repeat Champ Pistons, especially at the dollar figures 4 yr 60M we were talking about.

That signing caused the current state of the Bulls, and I actually htink it’s good to keep most of our current young guys (Tyrus, Thabo, Rose, Noah) because they might be legitimate stars….

Basically I think that article was a bit of B/S. Well written B/S, but B/S that extorts the truth in order to prove a point on someone who’s become an easy scapegoat because Big Ben sucked and D’Antoni didn’t come to us….

We’ll see what Dwyer says when we figure this team out (hopefully this year) or definately next year with the Gooden off the books and the dangling expiring Hughes contract for 2010 looming…..

I think this team knows what it’s doing now, Paxson saved his reputation wiht the fabulous trade last year, and we’re moving back into contention again.

by majoyenrac on Jul 31, 2008 6:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

well all the reports since then

was that Reinsdorf wanted Wallace, thus the big bucks for Wallace. I don’t think the point was he won’t pay for certain guys, but that he’ll only pay for certain guys. Maybe there’s more to that ‘Reinsdorf likes defense’ article from earlier this summer than I want to believe.

I do agreed that the ‘no signed picks from 99-02’ was a bit too shock-effect.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2008 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you're on to something re Reinsdorf and "his guys"...

Keeps coming up both with Sox and Bulls over the years, there’s guys who, for whatever reason, become the Dorfer’s favorites, and they get special treatment. Supposedly Deng’s charitable bent is big for Reinsdorf… I don’t know why Gordo would be in the owner’s doghouse exactly, but as YFBB sez, maybe it’s more that he not in the owner’s penthouse,...and that makes the difference.

by Cholla on Jul 31, 2008 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Using this as a basis

Why is Noc favored? Defense or preceived D?

by exult463 on Jul 31, 2008 7:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Does anyone other than Reinsdorf actually know

why a player becomes elevated to a knight of the round ball/table? Also, can one descend from the garden, and lose the magic dusting? It does happen to some guys. Not sure Noc is still favored…he had an etiquette slip up last season…

What chaps is of course that it’s as per forever… the big boss man that can arbitrarily do a thumbs up or down on the players/coaching staff, and we have to lump it… which especially sucks when, as is sometimes the case, it’s obviously an ego battle for supremacy that’s driving roster decision. Such is fandom.

This time with Gordo, it’s at least complicated enough that a case can be made Bulls are going to make a decision based on rational criteria as opposed to a tiff for tat situation. At least part of what has gotten us to this spot, is that it’s really a tough call on what kind of contract fits both management and player….. so for now, I’m granting Bulls brainrust some slack trying to sort this out.

And I do tend to give Gordo more credit for at least trying sometimes to be a team leader. That plus all the working out in offseason, and lack of “trouble” from him last year, when there was so much opportunity for him to wax wizeass…there’s at least the possible ingredients for ownership to notice a quality person there somehow. Not to say that makes him worth what his agent has been talkin….

by Cholla on Jul 31, 2008 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought his claim that Reinsdorf hugely favors the White Sox

was a big much.

And I can’t really argue with his picks for players, with the obvious exception of Noc.

by swede2287 on Jul 31, 2008 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I get their argument don't get me wrong

But personally I think a lot of the holdup from the Bulls brass on Deng and Gordon was that I’m not sure if the Bulls would be wise to keep both of them and be marginal teams for years and run the risk of losing someone down the road like the big 3 young-ins because we overpaid.

I see the point of retaining both of them they’re good, they have their fan base, they could improve, and I think had this year been last year (With both approaching the QO last offseason, their deals would have been done, but this was a bad year and our 2 main guys (Deng and Gordon) were large reasons for it.

I know that Reinsdorf was big on the Wallace signing…..but at the time who wouldn’t have been. We had a guy who seemed an emotional wreck his last year (Chandler) who was completely ineffective in the playoffs and we were ousted easier than folks remembered by the champion Heat….we needed a tough, no holds barred defender/on the court presence….and watching those Pistons teams like I did (And I did watch them closely having followed Rashweed Wallace’s career for years thanks to him being on those Blazers teams with my man Pippen), Wallace seemed the ideal piece to give our main 4 (Hinrich, Deng, Gordon, Nocioni) that extra oomph of toughness we needed….

It just didn’t work out, Wallace aged in 2 years to be likely worse than even the biggest pundits thought he’d be in year 4…..and the team fell apart….

Well we’re going to build ourselves back. I think the Gasol deal would have happened had Heisley not tried to take a ton of talent for Gasol (Deng and Gordon and maybe Thabo was the last I thought I heard—though those rumours were wild) and not tried to force our hands to take complete crap long contracts like Brian Cardinal off of their hands….

We also it turns out offered quite a bit for Garnett, but Paxson didn’t play with McHale so he didn’t get the friends discount…...we also did the same for Kobe but he didn’t like not playing with Luol…..

It happens, it was made public…

I know it’s frustrating to be a Bulls fan and see how bad the last 10 seasons were overall for a team as popular as our team is, and I know the D’Antoni thing really pissed a lot of us (definately myself included as I was ridiculously excited about it off) but I think this over exaggerates a bit much…

Before last year, the Bulls were considered by many to have the best plans to build a franchise, then we blew up and Pritchard’s Blazers surprised, and we’re considered almost a laughing stock, and hte Blazers are the golden boys….we’ll just see.

Oh well. Next year’s a new year. I still have faith in our young core….

by majoyenrac on Jul 31, 2008 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

chandler was signed by bulls '01 draft

by Blacknight23 on Aug 1, 2008 2:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Normally, I love Dwyer

And I think I’m reacting more strongly to this because I value his opinion as a Bulls fan and if he’s bummed that makes me bummed…

Here’s an excerpt from one of Dwyer’s game recaps from late last season (my bolds):

Here’s what Chicago’s starting lineup should look like next year:
PG: Kirk Hinrich
SG: Thabo Sefolosha
SF: Luol Deng
PF: Tyrus Thomas
C: Joakim Noah
Bring Aaron Gray (19 points and 22 rebounds) and Ben Gordon off the bench...

That recap stuck in my mind because it was pro-Thabo but obviously the other key part is that Dwyer advocates playing Gordon off the bench. While I don’t want to read too much into one re-cap, it does highlight the ambivalence that Gordon causes.

Stats guys on BAB will inundate with numbers that prove that BG should absolutely be starting. They may very well be right, but the fact is that most people (casual fans, the media, owners) remain unconvinced. So then it’s logical to ask: how much is BG really worth?

What Dwyer fails to address in the link is the other side of the equation, which is how much Ben and his agent are asking for. Whether or not Reinsdorf has biases may not even be an issue right now. Maybe BG and his agent are just asking for more than anybody else really thinks he’s worth.

But whatever, Dwyer’s objective was not to assess the BG situation but to provide a Bulls fan (Dwyer) with an opportunity to express his emerging trepidation. That’s fine. Meanwhile, I’ll maintain some optimism that this time around, things will work out (however they do).

by paxson43 on Jul 31, 2008 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dwyer's comments

makes one think QO is certain. Still the Bulls need Ben’s scoring for another season (08-09). After that, I guess the chips fall where they fall?

by exult463 on Jul 31, 2008 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually the fact that they're still talking

makes me think a deal is certain. I think Noce gets moved to make this happen, but this illustrates how important just having an extra $1-$2m per year available to pay out can be because that seems to be the sticking point right now if the Bulls are putting out a 6-year, $58m deal as reported.

by messwiththebull on Aug 1, 2008 6:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure it does.

But I think it also shows that if money really is the issue, you can always get rid of that $1-$2 million. (I’m still convinced that if this team looks like a 2nd-round exit team, and they have a chance to upgrade Deng to James or Gordon to Wade, they’ll definitely do it, tax be damned.)

by tyger1147 on Aug 1, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's interesting you dig that up....

it definitely doesn’t help his pro-Gordon article.

by swede2287 on Jul 31, 2008 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Historically (can't find it you'll have to trust me) he is not a fan of Gordon bench-relegation

maybe your example was just a concession, with him assuming there’s no way the Bulls get over themselves on that one.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2008 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can't you pay him what he deserves

and still bring him off the bench?

It would be an unusual arrangement. NBA clubs just don’t pay top dollar for players coming off the bench.

by NBA Observer on Aug 1, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

except for the best run organization in the league (Spurs)

who pay Manu 10 million a year to come off the bench… hmmm.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 1, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um... exactly?

While Gordon wants to start, if he’s locked into a lucrative deal, and they still want to bring him off the bench… he just might do that.

by tyger1147 on Aug 1, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, probably. He's been doing it all this time without complaint

I’d actually feel a bit bad for Ben if the Bulls are offering him less ‘because he’s a bench player’, when all along they’ve been telling him it didn’t matter if he started or not.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who knows if he will or not...

...but if he gets his money, and everyone starts talking about a good Bulls team that has its leading scorer coming off the bench-you know, like that awesome Manu Ginobili from the Spurs in 2008-then he might feel satisfied w/ the recognition as well. Who knows? Obviously, I can’t say, and I’d rather have him start anyway, but… yeah, who knows?

by tyger1147 on Aug 1, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

haha yes, exactly

I was agreeing that it was an unusual arrangement, but one that has some precedent of proven success. Manu’s actually on a sweet deal for the Spurs because he seemingly loves the organization and wants to win. He could totally make more than the 10 million a year or so he gets. I also don’t really get why Ben has to come off the bench and why he doesn’t play closer to 36 minutes a game (starter’s minutes). Looking at the first four years of their respective careers (ages 21-24) Ray Allen and Ben Gordon are eerily similar in most of the major categories.

Ray is a better rebounder (height) and gets more steals, but Ben’s USG rate is a full 4% higher than Allen’s (28 vs. 24). In terms of defense, Ben’s DRtg of 106 is 3 points better than Ray’s 109. The difference in their USG% accounts for the difference in their ORtg’s, recent research indicates that 1% change in USG results in 1.25 point drop or increase in ORtg. So adjusting Ben’s ORtg to assume that he only had a USG% of 24 rather than 28, to normalize him to Ray’s level leads to them having matching ORtg’s of 110. Essentially, if Ray was asked to carry his team as much has Ben has been in the first four years of their respective careers, his numbers would be nearly identical to Ben’s only Ben is a better defender (by DRtg).

It’s interesting to also note that Ben gets 30 MPG, whereas Ray got 35.8. Why not play Ben for the full 36 minutes that a starting quality player deserves. Also, Ray Allen began his run as a perennial All-Star right at this point in his career that Ben is at. Do we really wanna let a future All-Star level player walk for nothing or trade him for a much lesser player? (This probably could have been it’s one Fanpost, woops).

by fundamentallysound on Aug 1, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Scotter's made this analysis before.

Gordon is a shorter version of Ray Allen. Both have historically great shots. Both can use that shot to score in bunches. Both have other skills, although to no great strength.

Allen’s height doesn’t make him that much better of a driver than Gordon. Gordon has taken (approx.) 15%-18% of his shots “inside” or “close”, while Allen has taken 18%-19%. If VDN can get Gordon back to his 17/18% of his 1st and 2nd years, then Allen’s height/length advantage only shows itself in rebounding and steals, as you point out. Yet Allen is a superstar (because he made a movie), and Gordon is not.

Fact is, if Gordon were 3” taller, and not one iota different of a player, he’d be commanding $14 million easy, and probably getting it.

by tyger1147 on Aug 1, 2008 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

sooo we should pay the man his money.

ship out Kirk or Noce or whatever it takes to keep BG here. I want talent, I don’t want scrappiness. Ben’s one of our two most talented players right now (with Rose close on he and Deng’s heels, I hope) we need to keep him and find a way to ship out the unneccesary contracts (I’m looking at you, Nocioni).

by fundamentallysound on Aug 1, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed, The Scrappy Era died

when Skiles left.

by messwiththebull on Aug 1, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kirk Hinrich 2008-2009 salary: 10 million dollars

If Gordon comes back, Kirk is most assuredly coming off the bench, and I don’t think his contract should have any weight on the decision.

It’s not common for players of that salary to be on the bench, but if that’s what makes the team and player more effective (I’m not totally against benching BG just as long as he gets his minutes a la Manu or Maggette).

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Aug 1, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bulls starting talent level is not stable enough

to afford the luxury of having one of their top salary players coming off the bench.

by RogersPark Kris on Aug 1, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

At this point in his career

Michael Finley is a rotting corpse with “veteran leadership.” They still bring Manu off the bench because that’s what works for the team. If keeping Ben on the bench is what’s best for the team’s offense, then pay him the money, then let him win 6th man of the year awards for the rest of his Bulls’ career.

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Aug 1, 2008 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

It works for the Spurs

because they have Tim Duncan and Tony Parker anchoring the starting unit. The Bulls aren’t in a position where they can say they have two all stars in their starting rotation. On top of the fact Manu is a better player than Gordon who justifies having a large salary (Even though it’s less then what gordon is asking for).

by RogersPark Kris on Aug 1, 2008 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gordon is also much younger and as mentioned above, Manu's a rare breed

he signed for less than he probably could have gotten elsewhere to stay with the organization he knows and trusts.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 1, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see how Ben Gordon gets so much credit

He’s a great 3 pts shooter and free-throw shooter but what else? According to Dwyer he’s the “hardest worker” on the team. Thats not even close to the truth. He’s a hard-worker, dont get me wrong, but compared to Noce and Hinrich? He practices alot because he loves to shoot the ball and rack up pts, not help a team win. Why doesnt he work on his focus, leadership, consistent energy, passing, or defense much? Or maybe even work on avoiding traps or not dribbling the ball of his foot and falling over. He’s all for himself and his work ethic only extends to his own personal goals and nothing else. Goodbye to my favorite blocked-shot victim. I can’t envision him starting on a contender’s lineup, maybe back to 6th man but only if he buys into a “team” concept somewhere….but I’d rather buy a lotto ticket than wait for Ben to come around.

by JayDangles on Jul 31, 2008 7:48 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

Your argument in regards to Ben's

work ethic might have some merit, but when you mention Kirk and Noce to help reinforce your stance, it totally weakens you point.

Kirk’s shoulders drop further now than when he was a rookie, he’s already loss a step and his defense has declined. Noc game peaked (ceiling reached) two years ago and nothing else has been added to it defensively or offensively.

I guess we have a bunch of lazy, selfish guys with fat checks?

by exult463 on Jul 31, 2008 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kirk and Noce are NEVER mentioned as being at the BERTO center

Kirk hasn’t improved since he entered the league. He’s more concerned about his new marriage and slumping his shoulders and dribbling aimlessly underneath the rim and moping around the court. Hinrich would be SO much better if he had half the work ethic Lu and BG have. His work ethic stinks.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 31, 2008 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stupid Kirk...

I just hate it when athlete’s are more concerned with their marriage than with basketball. It’s so selfish of them…

by kidronmusic on Aug 1, 2008 2:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

haha, yeah that was a bit over the top, but I HATE it that Kirk seemingly never works out with

Ben and Lu at the Berto Center. You never hear about him going to places like IMG (a la Thabo, Lu, JoNo, and TT) to improve his game. He’s just happy to collect his paycheck and never improve, I hate that attitude and I think it’s a big part of why he’s never really improved, why he’s so inconsistent, and why he’ll never reach his potential.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 1, 2008 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just because you don't hear about

Kirk working out doesn’t mean he’s not. You all know he’s not a media type person so he’s not going to put himself out there. If you go back and read articles from last fall it was said that Kirk came back in the best shape he’d ever been in. As far as BG being at the Berto all summer last year how did that work out for him? Was his whole game better than the year before?

Carlos Zambrano and Rich Harden. Now that's a pair of Aces.

by sue369 on Aug 1, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

right cause Kirk's season last year was highly indicative of someone who busted their ass all summer

and was in great shape….not. He sucked, moped, and was basically a loser all year. He also didn’t even do his normal defensive stopper bit, which is really an effort thing more than anything else. If he was in such great shape, why did his defense drop off so much?

by fundamentallysound on Aug 1, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah Kirk

was the only one who didn’t play well….not.

Carlos Zambrano and Rich Harden. Now that's a pair of Aces.

by sue369 on Aug 1, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he played the worst. others dropped off, but none as greatly as he did.

he’s also supposed to be the leader of the team (he is Captain Kirk afterall) and he’s supposed to be the facilitator of the offense at the PG spot. He failed as a leader and had THE worst season on a team of players that underacheived. Not only that you could see the confidence sucked from his body. Not exactly inspiring stuff from your PG and Captain.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 1, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agreed that

Kirk did not play well. He wasn’t the only one. You don’t like Kirk and I don’t like BG. It happens. His team mates must see some type of leadership in him because they have voted him Captain three years now.

You don’t like KIrk and I don’t like BG. That’s the way it goes sometimes.

Carlos Zambrano and Rich Harden. Now that's a pair of Aces.

by sue369 on Aug 1, 2008 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

For me, anyway...

...it’s less of “not liking Kirk” (because I do, I’ve known about him since jr. high), and more about trying to be honest about the situation.

by tyger1147 on Aug 1, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I LOVED Kirk up until this year

he was one of my guys. I go back and forth on the BG love. Sometimes I love the guy other times I curse my screen at him. The thing is the rest of the team’s drop-offs were of a smaller magnitude than Kirk’s. Combine that with Kirk’s awful body language this year and I was just really put off by him. Also, he’s the second best PG we have now and the second best 2 guard option we have, and we’re paying him 10 million dollars this year. This is why I want him shipped out if it means we can resign Ben. Ben’s been the better player his whole career, is younger, and didn’t regress as much as Kirk did this year.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 1, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

HE PLAYED WORSE THAN ANYONE ELSE!!!

Not NOT!

by tyger1147 on Aug 1, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kirk was in the best shape of his career...

...yet he played worse than Deng, Nocioni, Gordon, Thomas, Noah. He was WORSE than anyone. And he didn’t have the trade rumors to bother him, either.

Kirk was probably in the best shape ever because he was “forced” to workout due to playing w/ the Olympic team.

by tyger1147 on Aug 1, 2008 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

hear hear.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 1, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

or is it here here? I never know.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 1, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure he had trade rumors

to bother him. On the night of their first game he was mentioned in the trade rumor with Kobe coming to trhe Bulls. He knew nothing about it until just before the game whe the media brought it up to the whole team about the rumors. I think trade rumors bothered the whole team.

He didn’t spend his summer working out with the Olympic team. He bowed out before he got married in July so he wasn’t “forced” to work out for the Olympic team.

Carlos Zambrano and Rich Harden. Now that's a pair of Aces.

by sue369 on Aug 1, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Staying on the Olympic team for at least summer would have done wonders for Kirk

Spending weeks training with some of the hardest working players in the league? Who knows what could have rubbed off on him, he had a career best season after playing the World Championships in 2006.

That shrew wife of his, she ruined it all!

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Aug 1, 2008 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aw, leave Jill alone.

She is having his daughter you know. :-)

Carlos Zambrano and Rich Harden. Now that's a pair of Aces.

by sue369 on Aug 1, 2008 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know what bothered Kirk last season

I didn’t see anything from a training perspective that was responsible for his downturn.

What I didn’t see was any aggressiveness at all. What I did see was body language that was screaming for someone else to pick him up.

I kind of hope that pickup comes from being a father. He’s playing for two now.

by NBA Observer on Aug 1, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm hoping we

see a whole new Kirk this year.

Carlos Zambrano and Rich Harden. Now that's a pair of Aces.

by sue369 on Aug 1, 2008 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sue, you are absolutely right about Kirk.

Remember when Kirk started out last season playing badly? ...everyone had their theory about what was wrong with him.

Kirk came into into the season noticably more bulked up than the year before, and one of the more commonly forwarded explanations for his poor play was that Kirk may have worked out too hard over the summer.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Aug 1, 2008 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Just because you don't hear about kirk working out doesn’t mean he’s not"

I’m sure Kirk works out but It would be great if he did it with his teammates at the berto center. Bulls management are the ones leaking out these stories about whose working hard or not. If they thought kirk was doing his part I’m sure it would be mentioned somewhere by somebody.

by Blacknight23 on Aug 1, 2008 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A few years back Bulls.com

did an article and pictures on Kirk’s summer workouts at the Berto. Like I said just because they don’t talk about it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

Carlos Zambrano and Rich Harden. Now that's a pair of Aces.

by sue369 on Aug 1, 2008 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's great sarcasm...

...but if we’re talking about “devotion to the team” and “desire to make himself better” it’s a pretty valid effin’ point. I couldn’t give a crap about Kirk’s family because it doesn’t help the Bulls win and, in fact, hurts them (potentially—maybe he’s just incapable of getting better). Unlike some people, I don’t use my sports watching as a substitute for People Magazine.

by tyger1147 on Aug 1, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't determine it a causal relationship

blame the media if anything for even bringing up Kirk’s family distractions. They should’ve just wrote “he’s been a-suckin’” without context.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2008 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thus, the parenthetical.

I doubt it really was a distraction since he’s never had the reputation of being a workout warrior.

by tyger1147 on Aug 1, 2008 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

just ask yourself how many teams

are extending offers to gordon…obviously only 2 or 1 team (memphis) has any money, but there haven’t even been sign and trade rumors about teams wanting him…

again, just because he is the best offensive player on a team that is weak offensively, doesn’t mean jack….its like saying your the smartest retard….obv i dont like gordon enough to give him more than 10 mm a year, said it before…i just don’t see how being stuck with his bad contract is getting anywhere near a championship level team, which is what we should be shooting for

he could have taken the deal last year, so he gambled, he took a risk and lo and behold, he had a bad year, and now he wants more money…wtf is that??? and we’re just supposed to give him more money because its what he wants…get outta here…as much as i want to see the bulls win, this is a business, not a charity event

and from the second article…no matter what our revenue situation is…its easy for us to say “yah go over the tax, whats the big deal” when its not your money at stake”...i mean if they don’t want to pay the tax, they don’t want to pay it…

by Jbonelli on Jul 31, 2008 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How do you "work" on your leadership?

Does David Thorpe have a drill for that?

by Big D on Jul 31, 2008 9:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

heh

Chances: unlikely.

by NBA Observer on Aug 1, 2008 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Obviously there are courses to develop better leadership

by BAB-Bass on Aug 7, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He could read this

Lead to Succeed by Rick Pitino

by paxson43 on Aug 7, 2008 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And while

Gordon isn’t a stellar ball handler, you really can see a marked improvement over his rookie year.

Plus I think many forget how Gordon is able to create his own shots and especially get to the line. He’s not just a spot up shooter.

Of course I hope VDN reminds Ben of the “giant killer” weapon, something he didn’t use as frequently last year as he had in th epast, and it’s one of his most effective plays.

by majoyenrac on Aug 1, 2008 7:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder if Del Negro would work with BG

When BG gets into the paint for the pull up jumper he could be stopping as soon as one foot reaches the paint to elevate for his jumper. He’s quick enough to get past his primary defender, but he needs to elevate quicker before the defender can recover.

What will happen is his defender will try and recover and have no where to go but to run into BG drawing a foul. If the shot still falls, great, and 1 op. If not, it’s two freebies at the line. Bang bang, two points and one additional foul on BG’s man.

Once BG establishes an offensive routine that draws fouls using his best assets, he’ll be an elite scorer that can live at the FT line.

by NBA Observer on Aug 1, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

good point.

by exult463 on Aug 1, 2008 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I second that

by majoyenrac on Aug 1, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re-post:

Gordon’s step back jumper is sick. He knows how to play in his body, which makes the handles bit very baffling, but not incorrectable.

by messwiththebull on Aug 1, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I saw the "dribbling off his foot" comment coming a mile away.

by potato0328 on Aug 1, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Time for the Paxs Bulls to "resonate" with the Fans?

Or Reinsdorf Rules because he holds the golden scepter?

by exult463 on Jul 31, 2008 8:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Oops?

I believe that was “a coach” that resonate with the fans. It had nothing to do with the roster?

by exult463 on Jul 31, 2008 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I love the Wamboldt article

a couple points that really struck me:

1) If you’re serious about owning a sports franchise, you have to put any luxury tax proceeds into a reserve (earning some low risk return) to apply against a potential luxury tax payment in the future. These proceeds are not revenues driven by ticket sales, playoff appearances, etc, and should be reinvested into the future of the team.

2) The Bulls could similarly pad BG’s deal with incentives, giving the agent a PR win, giving BG a shot at his money, and limiting the Bulls’ exposure

3) To make that padded offer, the Bulls would only have to go $790K into the luxury tax. If this is indeed true, I don’t see how you can’t at least propose that offer to the BG camp. It’s $790K for chrissake

4) I did not know the Bulls could offer BG a signing bonus

It seems like the Bulls can at least make a more attractive offer than it initially appears if they are willing to go just a little bit into the luxury tax, while limiting their downside risk either in the form of overpaying for “under”production or being left with a difficult to trade contract.

by messwiththebull on Jul 31, 2008 8:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

again, its easy for us to say

“yah pay the luxury tax” because its not your money…i mean u cant fault the guy for not wanting to go over it, its just good business..and this is a business…

by Jbonelli on Jul 31, 2008 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If he put his luxury tax proceeds in a reserve then he should have more than enough to cover the tax

I don’t blame any owner for avoiding the luxury tax but I will criticize an owner for not reinvesting luxury tax proceeds into the team. It’s not my money but it was before I bought the goddamn ticket.

by messwiththebull on Jul 31, 2008 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It would be a business decision to go into the tax.

If the Chairman thinks that keeping Ben Gordon on the team for that price will (a) guarantee the playoffs and (b) puts us in a better position to have a spectacular winning season and go deep in the playoffs, then he’ll be getting probably at least $750,000 more revenue.

by arjoseph on Jul 31, 2008 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

For the last time it's not just $750,000.

It’s $750,000 plus millions of dollars from the Knicks and whoever else is paying the tax. 1 dollar over is several million dollars lost. There’s ways to get rid of $750,000 during the season, but the tax isn’t as simple as just a dollar for dollar tax.

by Scotter on Jul 31, 2008 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Understood, that was in the article as well as previous posts on BaB

$750K + opportunity cost. That is already assumed for. For the last time no one said otherwise.

by messwiththebull on Jul 31, 2008 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If it was understood

then arjoseph wouldn’t have said the Bulls only have to make up $750,000 in revenue.

by Scotter on Jul 31, 2008 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry, thought you were responding to me

mea culpa

by messwiththebull on Jul 31, 2008 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Totally right.

I forgot about the distribution of tax revenue.

by arjoseph on Aug 15, 2008 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah and after reading we're one of the most profitable franchises

I can’t fault Reinsdorf for that.

I was impressed that despite always being over the salary cap, we are always one of the most profitable teams.

That makes me think Pax is the real problem – if we’re over the salary cap then we’re just direly wasting some of that space (Big Ben now Hughes, Nocioni, arguably Hinrich).

by swede2287 on Jul 31, 2008 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

if Pax knew going in that luxury tax was an impossibility

then he’s made major mistakes. But, again, was Reinsdorf the one championing for Noc? I hate Reinsdorf conspiracy theories, but after this coaching search and negotiations with free agents, he’s obviously not just signing checks.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You can trade simmons and

not be in luxury cap territory

by Blacknight23 on Aug 1, 2008 2:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are people lining up to get Simmons?

We could try to trade him for a swap of 2nd round picks, just to get cap relief, if somebody was a little under the cap, and wanted him…

by kidronmusic on Aug 1, 2008 2:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yah, i suppose...but i guess

thats where my opinion just weighs in, and ben gordon just doesn’t strike “deep into the postseason” thoughts in my head

by Jbonelli on Jul 31, 2008 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And since when

did $790K not institute a lot of money…..I bet that’s many entire year’s worth of your salary….

Sorry I’m a finance guy and hate when people make these comments….even if in the grand scheme of things for the NBA players $790K isn’t a lot of money, to the corporate guys who don’t play but help runt he franchise, that’s a big hit.

by majoyenrac on Aug 1, 2008 7:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

huh?

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2008 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry

Ragging on the numbers again. It’s my jealousy, and I won’t bring it up again.

I was trying to say that $790K isn’t a big issue in the realm of an NBA player making a $80M contract (it’s a chunk but not that bad), but to the people in marketing, finance, sales, concessions, etc. that’s a few departments…

Corporate finance speak….done very rudimentary on purpose…but again I’ll leave these comments to my crazy brain instead of your blog. Sorry Matt.

by majoyenrac on Aug 1, 2008 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I used to think $790K was a lot of money

when I sold my first building. Now it’s a day’s pay.

by messwiththebull on Aug 1, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

great, nobody cares.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2008 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was quoting Wallstreet

by messwiththebull on Aug 1, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah I immediately regretted that comment figuring it could've been a quote

Blame alec for my knee-jerkedness.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2008 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No problem at all

I wish that quote applied to me. Now I’m depressed.

by messwiththebull on Aug 1, 2008 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Join the club

I used to think $1.00 was a lot of money, then I got a job :).

by majoyenrac on Aug 1, 2008 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for waking me up

I’ve just been sitting here watching my short S&P-Dow spread…hoping it tanks into the close.

But ON topic, I think this is Kelly Dwyer’s whiniest, laziest effort on record. Anyone here could have written that in his sleep.

Wambolt’s article, at least, pointed the way out of the BG dilemma.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Aug 1, 2008 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree that anybody could've written it

You think KC or Hanley writes a column (or slips it in their stories) like that? Maybe Mariotti would, but he’d just pull Reinsdorf hate without even knowing who’s on the roster.

Ok, so maybe HERE it could be written. But he’s followed the team closer and knows more inside people than any of us do, so it does carry more weight.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

also, it's whining but it's proactive whining

Dwyer does not expect Gordon to get signed, and he’s saying why. I appreciate that sentiment more than the “well let’s see what happens first and in the meantime I don’t have a thought” attitude.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2008 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You know I'm usually a big Dwyer fan.

He was practically NBAOist last year with his perfect commentary on the Boylan hiring, but in this article he didn’t say anything that hasn’t been hashed and rehashed here 100 times over.

Fine, his opinion carries some weight because it’s yahoo, but Wambolt, as you said, dug into the numbers and came up with some stuff we hadn’t seen before.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Aug 1, 2008 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it wasn't meant to be a contest.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 1, 2008 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I read through a few hundred posts today and at the end of it I concluded people are tremendously overthinking things. This is, or at least should be very simple.

1. The Bulls will have a craptastic offense without him. For people dogging on him for being “one-dimensional”, I say consider removing him any one player from the team over the past four seasons. Is there a single player who would have a bigger effect if he were gone? No way. He’s the only guy who other teams really have to account for. The fact that he does as well as he does when the rest of this team is completely non-frightening offensively is saying something.

Look, say you take Deng off the team. Well, we’d certainly be worse off, but you could plug in Nocioni and Thabo and not lose a completely huge amount. Lose Hinrich and you could have plugged in Duhon. Lose Ben Wallace and… well, Ben Wallace was never really here. Lose Gordon and who picks up the slack? Nobody, that’s who.

2. While the Bulls are close to the luxury tax, they should be able to get under the tax threshold by enough to pay Gordon through a minor move of some sort. Say pawning off Cedric Simmons on someone. And that’s not even considering the major moves they need to make to get rid of Nocioni.

3. The QO isn’t a great option for anyone. In fact it’s a bad option. And it’s in everyone’s interest to have a good, settled situation for the next couple of years. Ben gets set for life guaranteed, and the Bulls get a good fit next to Derrick Rose.

4. I’m sick of hearing about Gordon’s size. For one, in every meaningful way he’s bigger than Kirk Hinrich. For two, does anyone think it really matters? Nobody gives a shit that Ray Allen or Michael Redd are nothing but shooters who are mediocre defenders. I hear people say “if only we could get Redd, at least he’s taller”. So what? He doesn’t play taller, and neither does Allen. They’re pretty much the same sort of players. The difference is that those guys started out their careers playing with other talented players, so they actually had it easier.

5. The guy lives at the gym and despite getting somewhat mystifying treatment from his team, has continually said and done the right things.

6. I think despite all the back and forth on contracts and what he wants, it’s pretty simple. Offer him $9M, with the contract length of his choice, and he’ll sign when push comes to shove.

by Sports2 on Jul 31, 2008 9:28 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs

Just a thought, but we have to factor in Derrick Rose's offense

we don’t know what he can do in Year 1 but is it unreasonable to expect that his production can mitigate what the team would lose from Gordon? Would Rose not take on more of a scoring role while not necessarily migrating towards a score first PG? He appears to have the ability to be an offensive force and at some point within the first three years, more like first two, are we not expecting Rose to put up Paul/D WIll numbers? That’s about 20 PPG right there from a scoring perspective alone, not factoring easy shots he is expected to get for teammates. It’s just not guaranteed like BG’s numbers, but it certainly is expected. The 3-PT game is where the real void will be.

by messwiththebull on Jul 31, 2008 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Simply trying to make up Gordon's offense won't be enough

This team has been terrible offensively for some time now. Assuming the D returns to top 10 in efficiency, they’ll need the offense to eventually climb into the upper half as well to become legit contenders. If Noah and Thomas are the future for the frontcourt, then there will be a great deal of pressure on each of the perimeter players to produce points. Giving up on Gordon and hoping Rose eventually meets his offensive production will only get the team back to shooting for 50 wins.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Aug 1, 2008 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Having a new PG who can actually play PG

goes along with Rose’s production.

by messwiththebull on Aug 1, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's only so much improvement in production a PG can get out of other players

At the same time, the team will still need other players who can get their own shot from time to time. It’s not like Rose would have an assist every time down the court. If this team is going to move to NBA elite, they’ll need a scorer like Gordon to go along with Rose and Deng.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Aug 1, 2008 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

disagree

How much better does Paul make Chandler and West? How much better does Deron Williams make Boozer, Korver, Okur, etc. ? how much better did Andre Miller make Iggy, Willie Green, Dalembart etc. There is no limit to improvement teams can make with a great PG .

by Blacknight23 on Aug 1, 2008 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well there's a limit

The other players have to have some talent, and a strong work ethic to improve as well. West didn’t become an All-Star overnight, he’s been steadily improving and finally had his breakout season this year. Chandler is a bit more extreme in the jump in production, but you have to factor in the change of coaching, playing style, and just overall environment in his ascension into a legit center.

There’s no limit as of now because we have no idea how good Rose can be. If he’s a transcendant player like Paul or Williams, we hit the jackpot and can erect Schanwald and B@ monuments at the UC.

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Aug 1, 2008 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm all over the board on these points.

1. This is true, there is potential of crippling the offense without the teams top scorer. However why should the Bulls overpay to save next season? They don’t plan on winning the title for at least the next three years so why clog up the cap later to stay marginal now.

2.I don’t think it’s that easy to get under the cap as stated. Moving Ced Simmons for a team’s exemption is easier said than done. He has zero value and wouldn’t even be on the team if it weren’t for his guaranteed contract. He could barely get minutes in the summer league. Your best bet would be to move Thabo for someone’s exemption and I would never want to lose Thabo for Gordon’s salary.

3. I agree here as well. Playing one more year is only a detriment to the team. I believe they should either drop him or sign him. One or the other. Otherwise there’s potential for a lot of shenanigans on both sides (the Bulls and Gordon) as the season wears on.

4. I think the issue with his size/defense is that it hurts when it matters most. I can recall many Pistons/Nets games where they just isolated Kidd and Billups against him in the post and there was nothing the Bulls could do about it. So the close games would always go their way. So while Redd and Allen both are equally bad defenders, they hold up much better in an isolation situation where they can’t be picked on the way Gordon can. And it’s hard to pull Gordon at those times because he is such a cruicial offensive player.

5. His work ethic has value but why do we think the other Bulls players aren’t playing. Why do they have to be at the Berto Center? Maybe they have a gym closer to their house they go to? And why should we reward people just for trying hard in the offseason. It hasn’t helped his defense. If Gray was in the Berto Center every day this summer, should we be starting him and extending his contract. It’s like the same people who get on Noc fans for his energy and toughness try to point out. There is value there, but maybe not enough to justify the money.

6. Every report I’ve read on the situation says Gordon wants big money. Several have even been linked on the site in recent days. I have to feel Gordon, who is noted as very prideful and confident, will be upset to not only get an offer significantly less than Deng, but also less than he was offered last year.

by CJ Bulls on Jul 31, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Point 4

I think this gets corrected in other ways.

One, BG can do two things really well for a team. He can get you back into games when you’re behind with his shooting. He can extend leads with his shooting. He’s not going to be effective as a stopper in crunch time. What do you do?

You have to use him more effectively in the areas where he does his best work. That’s rotations, timeout strategies, breaks between quarters, rotations, etc. This is where Skiles and Boylan completely f’d the team last year.

Even great players used ineffectively will not yield productive results.

by NBA Observer on Aug 1, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

in my comment above it should be noted that in their first four years in the league

Ben has had a better DRtg than Ray Allen (and also Michael Redd). His defense is just not THAT bad. He gets outrebounded by those guys (especially Ray), which can be attributed to his height, but his defense is certainly not an issue due to height, relative to those two comparable players.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 1, 2008 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I think Ben’s defensive problems get magnified when the team loses, but only a portion of that is his actual responsibility.

BG’s biggest defensive lapse is knowing how to move his feet in sync with his shoulders to stay in good position. His fouls come from when he loses position and tries to recover getting a hand up when he’s just not tall enough to use his hands high as effective defensive tool.

A good defensive drill for BG would be to have him play defense in practice while holding a basketball. You put a ball in his hands and he moves differently. His flow is better. With the dribble he can move where he wants, but perhaps holding the basketball may force him to move his feet, hips, and shoulders to stay in front of his man the way he uses them offensively to get by his man.

by NBA Observer on Aug 1, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry

but i totally disagree with alot of your opinoins. This team will be fine w/o BG. BG is a great shooter and a good player. He is def worthy of 8-10mil a year. The Bulls however will not be screwed if this guy is gone. For all you people that think his 20ppg is gonna sink us if we loose it think again. We just drafted this guy named Derrick Rose. Yeah that #1 pick D ROSE. He will easily average 15ppg his first year alone. Well now your probably saying what about the other 5 points that BG would get us? How about more playing time for Thabo? Maybe KH actually gets his numbers back up to par with his career averages? Maybe TT plays more minutes this year and averages 10-12ppg? Maybe Noah gets better and averages 10-12ppg? You are all so scared to loose BG and his little microwave its sad but lets face it he’s over pricing himself BIGTIME. His end game antics are disgusting. His no defense having is bad for our young bigs? Why you ask? Lets think about every time BG’s man blows bye him? Well that guy then gets picked up by one of our bigs and guess what that means? Foul trouble for them. So his defense is a major issue (that hurts the team) Do you really wanna pay that guy BUCKO Bucks? NO way Jose… I perosnally would offer him the QO and let him walk or S/T for some 2010 cap space and a nice young prospect. There is no way in hell BG deserves more money than a guy like MANU GINOBILI.

by Bulls4Ever on Aug 1, 2008 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Wow. That Kelly Dwyer got you good, Jerry Reinsdorf.... Real good...

"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris

by bullhockey on Jul 31, 2008 10:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Solution

Trade Hinrich for cap relief (Denver’s trade exception). Trade Noce for Miller, Sign Carlos Arroyo and Green as back-up PG’s. Re-sign Gordon and have a 3 guard rotation of Rose, Gordon and Thabo. Play Arroyo as Rose’s back-up when needed and keep Hughes on the bench unless the 3 man guard rotation gets in foul trouble.

Have a big man rotation of Miller, Thomas, Gooden and Noah. By 2010 Hughes, Miller and Gooden’s contract will be off the books and we can retain our two young bigs and go after Wade.

Homecoming

by illwill on Jul 31, 2008 11:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

You lost me at Denver using their exception...

They just got that exception by giving away Marcus Camby… so they could shed salary… so, they probably aren’t itching to turn around and spend that salary…

by kidronmusic on Aug 1, 2008 2:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs