NBA 2 Guards and thier market values
by Blacknight23 on Jul 30, 2008 11:46 AM CDT
112 comments
All this talk about overpaying Gordon got me interested in market value. Wen i came across this
Market value is often used interchangeably with open market value, fair value or fair market value, although these terms have distinct definitions in different standards, and may differ in some circumstances.
Reports are that he is asking for the moon LINK but when I compiled these numbers 11 or 12 milion doesn't seem unreasonable.
Considering that the Avg. Salary for starting two guards in the NBA is 10,129,916 what is Ben Gordon worth?
*Some Teams had multiple players capable of starting on that team i.e. Utah, Indy, Toronto, and OKC went with the best player.
*Also remember that Roy and Durant are still on rookie deals.
Atlanta-Joe johnson-$14,232,566
Boston-Ray Allen- $17,388,430
Charlotte-Jason Richardson-$12,222,222
Chicago-Larry Hughes-$12,827,676 Kirk Hinrich-$10,000,000
Cleveland-Wally Sczerbiak-$13,000,000
Dallas-Jason Terry-$9,075,000
Denver-Allen Iverson-$21,937,500
Detroit-Rip Hamilton-$10,562,500
Golden State-Monta Ellis-$11,000,000
Houston-Tracy McGrady-$21,126,874
Indiana-Mike Dunleavy Jr.-$9,000,000
LA Clippers-Cuttino Mobley-$9,100,000
La Lakers-Kobe Bryant-$21,262,500
Memphis-OJ Mayo-$3,875,040
Miami- Dwayne Wade-$14,410,581
Milwaukee-Michael Redd-$15,780,000
Minnesota-Mike Miller-$9,000,000
New Jersey-Vince Carter-$15,200,000
New Orleans-Morris Peterson-$5,784,480
New York-Jamal Crawford-$8,640,000
Orlando-Mickael Pietrus-$5,200,000
Philadelphia-Andre Iguadola-No contract Willie Green-3,388,000
Phoenix-Barbosa-$6,100,000
Portland-Brandon Roy-$3,084,240
Sacramento- Kevin martin-$9,260,335
SA Spurs-Manu Ginobli-$9,900,000
SEA/OKC Thunder-Kevin Durant-$4,484,040
Toronto Raptors-Anthony Parker-$4,550,000
Utah Jazz-Kyle Korver-$4,773,927
Washington Wizards-DeShawn Stevenson-$3,616,071
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Let's narrow the scope down to undersized 2 guards
And from your list you have:
Jason Terry
Monta Ellis
Allen Iverson
Cuttino Mobley
Willie Green
Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich
I’m excluding longer guys like D Wade, bigger guys like OJ Mayo but I’d probably include a Eric Gordon if Mayo’s on that list.
Now let’s remove the undersized 2’s who have at least shown a NBA abiilty to play the point, albeit far from an ideal point. So out goes:
Jason Terry
Monta Ellis
Allen Iverson
Kirk Hinrich
And we’re left with guys who are purely undersized 2 guards:
Cuttino Mobley
Willie Green
Leandro Barbosa (some would argue he can play point, I disagree)
Gordon is clearly better than all three of these guys, but Barbosa is comparable. So we’ll probably have to pull in some of the previously excluded undersized guys but clearly not Iverson:
Jason Terry
Monta Ellis
Kirk Hinrich
Leandro Barbosa
The average salary comes to a little more tha $9m per. This is all back of the envelope and a pretty primitive and admittedly unindicative of FMV anyway, but it makes that $10m he turned down last year look like a pretty reasonable offer.
by messwiththebull on Jul 30, 2008 12:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You're sure you're not bullshooter?
You are hilarious, that is for sure.
by tyger1147 on Jul 30, 2008 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't troll.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 30, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not.
I can make a list that w/o too much logical disdain shows Ben Gordon to be a shorter version of Ray Allen. Adding in arbitrary qualifications like “length” or “who have at least shown a NBA abiilty [sic] to play the point” just to reinforce one’s point is horrible reasoning and should be mocked as such.
by tyger1147 on Jul 30, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well then mock that specifically
don’t just mock him or some other poster who I forgot.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 30, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wanted to narrow the scope down to undersized 2 guards who can't necessarily
switch over to play an effective point. I was just weeding out based on that criteria using the list that was provided from the post starter. I defer to your supreme and all knowing knowledge and would love to see what you have to post.
by messwiththebull on Jul 30, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and being an undersized two guard who can't play the point
has an impact on market value (the theme of the post), at least from what I’ve noticed around the league.
by messwiththebull on Jul 30, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think his main problem (and mine too)
is that “undersized” and “can’t play the point” are really arbitrary and/or vague ways to get the results you wanted to get.
by potato0328 on Jul 30, 2008 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it's arbitrary crappiness.
Ellis can play the point and will be asked to do so a lot more than Gordon.
And obviously Kirk can as well. Your comment was one of the worst I’ve ever seen. You just completely made something up based off of visual observation and memory and expected everyone to trust your “supreme and all knowing knowledge”. And go figure! It was wrong.
My knowledge comes from “facts” that can be verified. I have no supreme knowledge. Just an eye, an ability to read and google.
by tyger1147 on Jul 30, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was posting an opinion, not expecting "everyone to trust"
but rather to agree or disagree. The reason I weeded out the players to the extent I did was to try to get an apples to apples comparison of undersized 2 guards who don’t transition well to the point. I tried to eliminate the high end (Iverson) and the lower end players (Willie Green) to get a somewhat normalized comparison. Personally I’d rather have Gordon than Barbosa or Hinrich any day of the week but I was responding to the poster based on what was present in his post.
I would hesistate to call Gordon a combo guard because of his inability to play the point. This affects market value and it even affects draft position. No one actively pursues an undersized 2 guard unless it is at a value (i.e. Bayless at the tail end of the lottery).
by messwiththebull on Jul 30, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
or the Bulls with the third overall pick in the draft.
by fundamentallysound on Jul 30, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have my suspicions
and (DISCLAIMER) my opinion is that Paxson was still a bit smitten by missing out on Wade to Riley that he wanted to hit a home run with that 3 pick. Gordon dazzled in the workouts and honestly, I unrealistically thought the guy would have a Wade type impact as well when he was drafted. My expectations were probably a bit too high of Ben, and I was a bit drunk with Iverson-esque expectations, but I thought he’d be more than what he’s shown thus far.
by messwiththebull on Jul 30, 2008 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and plus
that 2004 draft board… not what i’d call stellar.
one can argue for iggy (or deng!), but i can’t really blame them for choosing gordon there especially with how well his workouts went.
by Jaina on Jul 30, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't blame them either
in hindsight, yes, I do, but I thought BG would be a monster, I thought he could have been a franchise player.
The 04 draft still had some late gems like Al Jefferson, Kevin Martin, and, of course, Veektor.
by messwiththebull on Jul 30, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In hindsight maybe
But nobody would have taken those guys with the 3rd pick in the draft at that time.
by bigballa10 on Jul 30, 2008 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
but hindsight is the only way we can truly evaluate how good or deep a draft really was. Look at who Toronto picked. I’m sure it seeemed like a great idea at the time to Babcock.
by messwiththebull on Jul 30, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand all that.
But your apples to apples comparison came down to comparing Gordon to all combo guards. And they most definitely are combo guards. Guys 6’3” and under can’t usually get their shot off as easily so they only succeed w/ a better handle. Thus, being able to passably play PG. My point was that your whittling down was so incredibly arbitrary that you didn’t even get it to settle into the parameters you claimed it did.
The problem is that any SG at that height is almost definitely a combo guard. Ben Gordon compares more favorably in style and production to guys who are 6’4”/6’6” or so. In all honesty, Ben Gordon is a truly unique player in his combination of stature and production.
by tyger1147 on Jul 30, 2008 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's all you had to say
Was that so hard? It had to be easier than comparing me to bullshitter.
I don’t see guards 6’ 3” and under and intrinsically being combo guards because they need to get their shot off with a better handle. I think you have to be able to effectively play both guard positions more than out of necessity due to physical limitation. I see Brandon Roy as a combo guard but do not see Eric Gordon as one, rather I see him as a pure 2. I suspect the same of Bayless.
And, as I stated above, I chose to re-enter some obvious combo guards like Hinrich, Ellis, and Terry, because the pure undersized 2s (like a Willie Green and Mobley) are just not comparable to Gordon who is clearly a better player. Was it a comparison I’d have made a fanpost about? No.
by messwiththebull on Jul 30, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we use another word than troll?
I get this bad image of the kid from Willow meets the guy from The Leprechaun
shudders
by Belize on Jul 30, 2008 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't even know who that guy is
but I guess I’ll keep an eye open for his posts. I’m just working off the list that was posted above.
by messwiththebull on Jul 30, 2008 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'll have to keep your eyes open in the archives
BS’ legend lives on through there.
I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 30, 2008 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 30, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
look....there's no way your paying him
more than Kevin martin or ginobili…just because hes the best SG on this team, doesn’t mean hes as good as ppl on this site say he is…i would def NOT want the bulls to plunk down $10 million for gordon
by Jbonelli on Jul 30, 2008 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if they can let him go and aquire either of those 2 for their 'fair' price
then, sure.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 30, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you dont think that what their contracts
are is their fair price?? if im not mistaken both of them negotiated the contracts with management and did not get max deals….they got paid what their worth
i suggest gordon evaluate himself and figure out what he’s really worth, and it’s not more than deng. So idk…i would like to see what kind of team is giving him more then $9 – $10 million next yr…maybe the grizzlies
by Jbonelli on Jul 30, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you left out the part
where the Bulls can get Ginobili or Martin.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 30, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
2010. Superstar.
Just remember that.
by tyger1147 on Jul 30, 2008 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
aight, i dont really know what
you’re trying to get at…we’re talking about gordon’s contract and its value relative to other 2 guards in the league….i used two guards that are better than him as a comparison. i never said we could them, i just dont feel that we should pay gordon the money he wants just because he has a self inflated value of himself
by Jbonelli on Jul 30, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you want to compare BG to other players
make sure its other players the BULLS CAN ACQUIRE.
We cannot acquire Martin or Ginobili. We play by the same CBA rules. If we want to argue “BG’s not worth Manu money” we need to be able to support the argument that the “Bulls won’t pay BG, but they can acquire Manu”.
by NBA Observer on Jul 30, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
if the Bulls were able to go under the cap by renouncing Gordon, then something like ‘what’s Gordon’s relative value to Iguodala or Ellis’ makes more sense.
Obviously there are comps to gauge what Gordon should get, but Ginobili and Martin are more special cases than the norm.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 30, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I posted here last Summer
I would be making exactly the same arguments as Jbonelli. The year of interaction with fans that pay much closer attention to the details of the dollars is a big help.
And you learn, big deal, BG was bad at defense before and we still made the playoffs and he scored buckets.
by NBA Observer on Jul 30, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes they did.....
but with BG taking up only 4.5 million of the cap.
by CJ Bulls on Jul 30, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yah we made the playoffs...great...
we still did not get far, and we wont get far…its come to a point where u decide if u want to be a mediocre playoff team or a championship team…and if your fine with being a mediocre playoff team (which we are and will continue to be) then ok….
loook…i get the argument about what it take stop acquire those players…im just making a comparison, and you guys are complicating it…what you can’t compare two players and their production, and then compare their salaries and what they “should” be getting paid…whats wrong with that? im not saying we can get K Mart or Manu, im just saying, just because gordon is our “points leader,” its because we suck offensively, and hes the guy who gets the ball…if he were on any playoff team, he’d be a 3rd or 4th option (boston, detroit, san antonio, lakers, etc.)
by Jbonelli on Jul 30, 2008 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
aight, uhhh...
i still don’t get what your trying to say…i mean, we’re talking about gordon’s value…i dont get what acquiring other players has to do with comparing one players numbers to another, and then seeing how much they got….
the point is….ben gordon’s argument about him being the leading scorer on “a bad offensive team,” so he should be the highest paid player is BS….and i mean its unrealistic….i don’t understand the love fest with gordon, but whatever
by Jbonelli on Jul 30, 2008 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yah, but hes a STARTING
because he IS ON THE BULLS…and he would not start if he were in most other good teams..whatever, hes a decent shooter, so what, ur gonan give him max money cuz he can shoot the ball?? hes not even an all star, and he will never be one PERIOD…so yah, let him walk, who is going to want ben gordon with a $14 million a year contract? we traded wallace with a blaoted deal and got hughes….so thats what were planning on doing with gordon?
the whole premise of, yah heck paying his money because we have no other option is BS….this is a business, ur making an investment…and i dont think gordon is gonna return what he wants us to invest in him….hes not gonna deliver a championship so he shouldnt get top dollar
by Jbonelli on Jul 30, 2008 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would you pay Hinrich more ?
He makes more than both but I hear noone complaining about his deal.
by Blacknight23 on Jul 30, 2008 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No one complains because everyone is busy coming up with scenarios to move his ass
I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 30, 2008 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol.
good point but i meant at the time he signed it was generally thought to be a bargain.
by Blacknight23 on Jul 30, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But he's better than Hughes.
So he should get at least 13 million a year. Right?
by CrashDavis on Jul 30, 2008 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who is
better than hughes? Kirk? you might wanna look at career numbers.
by Blacknight23 on Jul 30, 2008 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon Expects to be the highest paid Bull:
Raymond Brothers, has told the Bulls that Gordon should be the highest-paid player on the team because he has led the team in scoring each of the last three seasons. Gordon averaged 18.6 points last season, down from a career-high 21.4 in 2006-07.
"I'm a Bulls fan," -Barack Obama
by Goostafer on Jul 30, 2008 12:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I would pay gordon 10+ million
If he was Rip, J-Rich, D-Wade etc.
Amili, amili, amili, amili amiliionare – Lil Wayne
Homecoming
by illwill on Jul 30, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
or for that matter
play well against any of the guys you mention in the playoffs. (both offensive and defensively)
by gman2849 on Jul 30, 2008 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The average is 10 million
All those guys make more with there salary going up in the next few years.
by Blacknight23 on Jul 30, 2008 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Chairman will laugh at that
Correction: Has laughed at that.
He’s still wrong. Pay Ben.
by NBA Observer on Jul 30, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pay Ben what?
The 70+ million dollar deal he wants? Yeah, that’d be a brilliant move. Chairman ain’t wrong here; you are.
I’m not truly sure if it’s BG or his equally-delusional agent that’s the driving force in these ridiculous requests, but it’s sad that it has to come to this. I just don’t see any way he can be a part of this team’s future now.
Seems to me that if a S/T doesn’t pan out, his best bet is probably to go to Europe for next year. If he’s on the Bulls this year playing out the QO, how much is he realistically going to play? His value will tank and he’ll be praying that he could get that 5/50 deal back on the table. Dude is in bad shape right now, plain and simple.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Jul 30, 2008 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
someone should tell his agent
that highest PPG != best player
by Jaina on Jul 30, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL syntax
"I tell you, Steve Blass, you pitch me inside, they never, never find that ball."
-Roberto Clemente
by cubbybear on Jul 30, 2008 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've been coding all summer
and didn’t even realize there was anything out of the ordinary in that post. lol
by potato0328 on Jul 30, 2008 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It saves time!
Everyone should write like that.
by Prevenge on Jul 30, 2008 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
i didn’t realize people would find this so funny. however you can tell what i do all day!
by Jaina on Jul 31, 2008 7:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I knew what you were talking about too.
Programmers == Constantly in front of their computers waiting for things to compile and killing time by reading thousands of comments on how much money Ben Gordon should earn and why.
by JockstrapNoah on Aug 5, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How many less games would the Bulls win without Gordon?
Just curious what everyone thinks. If he were to tear his ACL and miss the whole year. I say they go from a 45 win team to 42. I know it’s random numbering, but my point is I don’t think they’d lose that much with Hughes/Thabo/Hinrich taking his minutes. I guess that should help determine what he is worth.
by CJ Bulls on Jul 30, 2008 2:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
But
If a 2010 free agent wants to sign, they’ll want serious salary going the other way, and Gordon+Noce+1st rounders is better than other alternatives
"I tell you, Steve Blass, you pitch me inside, they never, never find that ball."
-Roberto Clemente
by cubbybear on Jul 30, 2008 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd say it's worse than that.
they’d be so awful on offense. From 45 to 35.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 30, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
without BG, this team certainly is headed for the lottery again.
Wins with BG is really tough to figure. There are so many moving parts right now, not the least of which is balancing the development of TT, Rose, Noah and even VDN, with winning ballgames.
by Mr M on Jul 30, 2008 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
People seem to forget that numerous times we are only in the close games because BG brought us back. Without him there, and with no other obvious person to step up, we don’t even get a shot at those.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jul 30, 2008 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sucking
Trying to defensively stop the other team by using small ball Duhon and Noc and not having people who can score on the floor. Don’t make me pull out the 3 on 5 we’d play with Duhon and Wallace out there for defense as well. Fortunately those guys are not playing for us anymore. It should be possible to play good defense with who we have now while also having an offensive minded guy out there like Gordon out there. Having one average defender out there should not kill us like having multiple guys who can’t shoot out there at the same time.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jul 30, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon is comparable to Iverson?
And Philly improved because they fired their idiotic GM and replaced him with someone competent, drafted smart, then used their cap space to acquire a big free agent.
I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 30, 2008 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paxson's real problem is
Noce’s contract. Subtract that 8 million and Bulls would be way under the cap.
by Blacknight23 on Jul 30, 2008 2:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Noce's contract started this whole shitstorm
Now they have close to 90 million invested in 1 position where neither guy is a franchise player, and not enough money to retain the most explosive scorer on the team who could be a huge asset to Rose. I’m not ready for the Kirk Hinrich SG experiment, and yes Thabo still blows on offense. Reinsdorf should go over the tax, his stupid fondness for hustle players allowed Pax to wildly overpay for Noce and hamper their ability to retain more talented and important players now.
I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 30, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd throw in a 2010 1st round draft pick, unprotected, for someone to take Nocioni.
And give back lesser years or lesser money. Hell, give them the right to swap picks in 2009, too, top-3 protected. That way, if the Bulls do need to do a sign-and-trade in 2010, they still have 1st round picks to give away. I mean, really, this team doesn’t need anymore late lottery, late 1st round picks right now.
by tyger1147 on Jul 30, 2008 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Now the team’s future is much more about minutes/contracts than hoping to get lucky in the lottery.
by potato0328 on Jul 30, 2008 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the premise
Whenever we discuss whether or not we should keep Gordon (meaning, sign him to a large, lucrative contract) or let him go, we often fail to take into account the whole complexity of the NBA. Starting 2 guards are hard to come by. My (our) idea of what BG is worth may not equal the value he sees for himself.
But, if we were to let him go, who would we be paying to replace him? Anyone we’d acquire (who’s halfway decent) would need to be pried away from a team, which means we’d need to overpay for his services.
Ben Gordon is a pretty damn good shooter. Overpaying him to stay with the team and light it up from 3 while playing alongside D Rose looks pretty nice when taken in comparison to fishing for scraps on the open market.
"Wait, just let me listen." - Scottie Pippen
by OldSkoolSloan on Jul 30, 2008 10:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i think gordon is a 6th man on an elite team, but thats my
opinion…at best a 3rd or 4th option…i get where your going, but id be fine overpaying for an all star, someone who will deliver a championship…not an undersized long rang bomber who isn’t even an all star, and hasn’t even taken us to the finals…if he wants top dollar…show it on the court
hey, im fine throwing $8 – 9 million at him, but not more than Deng….i mean like arenas said, hes still getting paid millions…its not like hes gonna be starving anytime soon.
by Jbonelli on Jul 30, 2008 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with you on this one for a different reason
In looking at the makeup of really good teams, the cap is disproportionally laid on the “big three”. Boston is an obvious example, but I wonder of there’s been a study done on payroll distribution of the top guns. I’d welcome a statistical reference to this effect. In short, I don’t believe championships are won by having 5-6 players of the $10m variety. Sports2, hope you’re reading this to confirm or shoot it down. My hope is that with enough “pieces”, the Bulls can swing the next KG type deal for a maturing, unhappy superstar around the time DRose is ready for primetime. Otherwise, we’ll have to be content with being competitive.
by California Al on Jul 30, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fine by me
and Ray Allen is grossly overpaid, so…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2008 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, you could argue he earned his $ in the playoffs alone
My big concern is that with Deng’s contract, theyre locking themselves into a decent club with no flexibility. I took a look at Sports2”s site, and the real players for the title had a parcity of $10m type players, except for Cuban’s Mavs and Detroit. Seems more logical to focus your payroll on a max player, a near max, and the 3rd wheel. Hoping DRose is one pc, so if I were Pax, I’d be figuring out how to get my hands on the max or near pax pc to pair up with him. Deng OR Gordon could be the 3rd option, so we’re only one key acquisition away from title contention. Who’s it to be? Boozer? Bosh? Noc?
by California Al on Jul 31, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Parcity"--is that where Tiger Woods lives?
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jul 31, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe he lives just under Parcity...
way under Parcity?
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jul 31, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we'll just have the max-level player playing on a rookie contract...
his name is Derrick Rose and he wants to be your superstar. Won’t you accept his advances? I know I will.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 4, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this, of course, making Gordon the third banana and Deng the second option
or vice versa, depending on which arbitrary Sports Guy label you want to place on either of them.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 4, 2008 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
heh
nice sports guy dig. I would’ve also accepted ‘franchise player’.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 4, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or Tyrus Thomas.
We’ve all soured on his “superstar” potential, but I’ll give him one more year to be a “near max” guy. How’s two third bananas go for ya?
by tyger1147 on Aug 4, 2008 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude random subjective analysis based on one's feeling is awesome
That’s why you “stat boys” will never get it….sigh.
I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 4, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But with Deng...
...you know at least some of his money is going to actually go to people who are, literally, starving. I mean, right?
by tyger1147 on Jul 31, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While this is certainly a valid line of thinking...
there has to be a tipping point when it comes to the salary he’s getting, right? I mean, anything more than 12 mil per year would just be ludicrous, whether the Bulls can “replace” him or not. If we were in win-now mode, I’d say F—- it and pay him whatever’s necessary to keep him around. But guess what? We’re rebuilding…shelling out far too much cash for a limited scoring star like BG isn’t helping us in the long run. Yeah, we can blame this whole thing on the bad contracts to Noc and Wallace, but what’s the point of that now? This is what we’re stuck with, so we have to make due.
Sure, losing Ben will make us a worse perimeter shooting team (ugh), hurt Derrick’s assist totals (!) ,and, far more importantly, we will certainly score less points for a couple of years, but we can make roster changes to account for this over the next few season (that is, if you trust that Pax knows what he’s doing).
I’d love to keep BG around, but the reported asking price is too much; therefore, in my opinion, signing him to what he wants will lead to success only in the near future and will hinder us down the line. I’ll take my chances on letting him go, even as greatly as it stings.
Hopefully, we can get some sort of compensation for his inevitable exit…otherwise, it will be depressing as hell. I’m honestly sad that this is the way it probably has to be.
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by Illini15 on Jul 30, 2008 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what long run?
2010 and Dwyane Wade? Who’s the scoring star “without limits” the Bulls are going to acquire?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 31, 2008 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wade would make sense...
but even he doesn’t have to be the answer. I just don’t think paying Gordon and going with an undersized backcourt that can’t defend SG (Gordon’s defense was masked by not having to guard SG while Hinrich and Duhon were with him) is a recipe for a championship quality team. Sure, we’d probably not be very good next year without Gordon, but signing him would put a ceiling on our chances.
by SouthernCub on Aug 5, 2008 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine,
but you don’t offer an (as good) alternative solution to Gordon.
So what would be your plan ? Let him go for nothing ?
The Game chose him !
by Diabolo on Aug 5, 2008 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do I need to have a plan?
Which would you rather do:
1. Assure yourself a mediocre-to-above-average team for the next several years with no chance to compete for a title, or
2. Gamble that you can rebuild quickly around Rose and Deng.
Paying Gordon big money for several years may prevent the team from bottoming out, but I think it also prevents the team from really being an elite team. I don’t think that’s a good approach personally.
Right now, there probably isn’t an alternative as good as Gordon available. But I think thinking in those terms is short-sighted. There will be such a guy available at some point in the near future. And rather than prevent my team from having the flexibility to make a move to get that better SG, I’d rather work toward having that flexibility.
The Bulls have made some mistakes (Hinrich, Nocioni, Wallace) in the past that have hurt their financial flexibility. But signing Gordon to big money and having an undersized backcourt for the next five years would only compound those mistakes, in my opinion.
by SouthernCub on Aug 5, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends what you mean by paying Gordon big money.
The Game chose him !
by Diabolo on Aug 5, 2008 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On this team, anything close to what is being discussed...
for Gordon is big money. If Gordon were being paid to be a sixth man (a la Nocioni), I’d be very happy to have him. He’d be a huge asset in that role. But if we’re paying him $10+ million to play starting SG, we’re crimping our ability to pay for the key guys down the road and putting a ceiling on our team’s potential.
Ultimately, I don’t see a starting backcourt of Gordon/Rose being able to compete for the title, because I think Gordon’s inconsistency offensively and his defensive liability at SG will prevent it. I think he needs to be a 6th man or to play alongside big point guard. That won’t happen in Chicago. So paying him upper-tier money prevents getting the right pieces for a championship contender, in my opinon.
by SouthernCub on Aug 5, 2008 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rondo/Allen
are they that much better defensively than Rose/Gordon ?
The Game chose him !
by Diabolo on Aug 5, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope...
but they also have one of the top players in the NBA at SF and probably one of the top 10 players ever at PF/C.
If you can convince me that Deng will become as good as Pierce and that one of our bigs will become as good as Garnett, then I agree that Gordon/Rose can probably work. However, I don’t see that happening. Do you?
by SouthernCub on Aug 5, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
1.
‘flexibility’
2. ????
3. Garnett!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 5, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea what you've just posted...
1. flexibility – You should know what this means. Having the ability to make moves easily. Sign Gordon to big money and years and you limit the ability to make moves because you’re over the cap.
2. No idea what your question mark entails. Kind of pointless.
3. The Celtics had Kevin Garnett. You may have heard of him. He’s quite good. Best PF in the game, maybe best PF ever. Unbelievable offensive and defensive force. We don’t have a guy like that, which is part of why I don’t think the comparison to Rondo/Allen was apt.
by SouthernCub on Aug 5, 2008 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was your steps towards championship.
no mediocrity to be found!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 5, 2008 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've never professed to have the answers...
I’m just analyzing what has been presented here. I think signing Gordon long-term is a bad move. Disagree if you like, but I think my rationale is just as sound as yours. Obviously, neither of us know for sure – that’s why we’re stating our opinions.
by SouthernCub on Aug 5, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to get in a meta-argument
that’s all assumed. You’re free to say what you think and others can say it (not you) is dumb.
My point was that this fixation (not just from you, like I mentioned it’s a big Simmons thing) on having to scratch a team before getting ‘locked in’ is not applicable to this team or Ben Gordon. Gordon’s 25 and you’re signing him for his prime. The team is already young and loaded with lottery picks.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 5, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree to disagree...
I’ve said my thoughts on this, you’ve said yours. I’m done talking about it. We both strongly believe our sides of the argument. Continued discussion will just be rehashing the same stuff over again.
by SouthernCub on Aug 5, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
also,
having Ben Gordon is a trade asset for landing the mythical superstar that will lead us to a title. It’s much harder to sign guys outright that are superstars, because their teams can offer more years and more dollars, but prying a superstar away from a bottom rung team by using tradeable assets and cap space via expiring contracts (hello, Larry Hughes / Drew Gooden) is much more possible.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 5, 2008 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm so sick of that #1 argument
I will take mediocre-above-average, Bill Simmons. It’s easier to leap from that to contention than go back to garbage, and then get back.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 5, 2008 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree to disagree then...
Personally, I’d rather not throw away my financial flexibility on a guy who creates a liability defensively when there are so many other holes to address. I think signing Gordon does just that.
But we’ll just have to agree to disagree. You aren’t going to convince me I’m wrong, and I’m obviously not going to convince you I’m right.
by SouthernCub on Aug 5, 2008 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't agree to that
Having Gordon under contract does not hamper flexibility as much as it helps by having an actual asset and good player. Those are the types who can get traded for ‘superduperstars’, though it’s rare. Being awful for a couple seasons with a chance to spend cap money and having Benny the Bull at the airport is rare as well…and in the meantime we get to watch an awful team.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 5, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good luck getting both...
that’s my point. Sure, I’d rather have nice assets to attract the big guys. But you have to have the cap space to do get those “superduperstars” (I think that’s a really dumb title personally), and signing Gordon makes that less of a possibility.
We’d have assets without Gordon. We’d have Rose. We’d have Deng. Hopefully one of the many young players turn out to be assets as well. We may even get something nice via trade. It’s not like the team would be void of enticing talent if we didn’t re-sign Gordon.
by SouthernCub on Aug 5, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you have assets with Gordon too
plus Ben Gordon. The Bulls can get under the cap by dealing Hinrich and Nocioni by 2010…or not get under the cap and work out a trade.
The major difference is that you think signing Gordon long-term automatically makes him a liability, a la Nocioni. I disagree. I think even if ‘overpaid’, he’ll be valuable.
You do not need cap space to get stars. You do need to be pretty bad to get cap space. I’m not interested.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 5, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
also, and I think this is overlooked...
don’t underestimate the advantages to having Rose (and to a lesser extent, Thomas and Noah) playing on a competitive team with quality teammates. Being bad for capspace may not be worth it if they’re learning how to lose.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 5, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Valid opinions indeed...
And you may be right. Personally, I disagree. Hopefully, whichever way the Bulls go turns out to be the right one.
by SouthernCub on Aug 5, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
havent seen it, but
how much exactly does he want?
“he Bulls remain far apart in negotiations with guard Ben Gordon, also a restricted free agent. Gordon’s agent, Raymond Brothers, has told the Bulls that Gordon should be the highest-paid player on the team because he has led the team in scoring each of the last three seasons.”
So more then the $13 million hughes is getting?
by Jbonelli on Jul 30, 2008 10:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Apparently.
Though the Pro-Sign Him Camp will probably tell you it’s all media mouthpiecing on behalf of JR. While this is certainly feasible, it’s apparent that Ben felt shat on by 5/50. This leads me to believe that he’d want at LEAST 12-13 per…especially if the reports saying he wanted 15 per last year are true.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Jul 30, 2008 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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