Paxson's the one without leverage

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 22, 2008 11:17 PM CDT Comment 136 comments

This 'negotiation' is really starting to get to me. Especially this permeating (if perhaps still a minority) opinion that it's of such paramount importance that the Bulls don't overpay for Deng and Gordon. This is usually accompanied wit the odd tough-guy talk that the Bulls can just let them go as a preferential alternative to overpaying.

The Bulls drafted these players, they own their rights. The CBA is set up so that it's easier for teams to retain their own players at the expense of their ability to get other team's players. That means it's even more important to draft smart, and sign who you drafted.

This isn't the fiscal responsibility league, and what makes me more willing to see the Bulls 'overpay' for Deng and Gordon is that there's isn't some tremendous downside to them not living up to the contracts. The team would be paying for their prime years, and at worst they're still above-average players. Even if it turns out that their best isn't good enough, they won't be untradeable. Heck, Hinrich (supposedly) still has trade value and I don't see Deng or Gordon ever having a season as bad as he just did.

Paxson made great moves in previous sign/trades, but that was because he was in a position to tear down the team, and guys like Crawford and Curry were unwanted (for different reasons). So draft picks and cap flexibility were enough of a haul. And that's mostly what teams get for the signed and traded.

With this team Paxson can't have that happen. I want Derrick Rose passing to legitimate teammates, not future cap space in jerseys. This team may be young but they have an opportunity to be young and successful. Being awful and cheap doesn't make the Bulls a good destination in the present or future.

Either Paxson failed to draft players worthy of big money, or mismanaged the roster to where the team can't correctly reward them. That could include the foresight of cashing in Deng early for Pau Gasol, or not tossing big money to Andres Nocioni.

If Gordon and Deng walk, the team is starting over. And if that's the case, I wouldn't mind having a new GM get a chance to try the rebuilding plan this time around. He can start early on the Tyrus Thomas contract stalemate.

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Pax did make great moves in previous sign-and-trades

That’s because he made those sign-and-trades with Isiah Thomas. Isiah is gone now, so he’ll have to find another sucker.

by Big D on Jul 23, 2008 12:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I guess we'll find out

It’s all about perception anyway for as long as the negotiations are going. If they get the money they want, he didn’t have leverage. If they sign for less, he did. And if they sign the tenders, I’d say neither one did.

by JSlakov on Jul 23, 2008 12:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Frankly,

I’d be happy to have Deng resolved in two weeks.
Somebody tell Gordon to set a deadline too.

And I agree, Paxon doesn’t have the leverage, and he hasn’t had it. People keep talking about how nobody else has money to spend, but the certainly will have it next year. So we need to make sure that neither of these guys plays on the QO. If we can’t agree to a deal, after two years of this, then they need to be S&T’d now.

by kidronmusic on Jul 23, 2008 12:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

How much does Deng's agent think he deserves?

My guess is close to Andrew Bogut money: 14.5 per year. That’s six years, $87 million.

But let’s say Deng doesn’t agree to a deal. He takes the qualifying offer ($4.5 mil) this year, then signs a 5 year deal elsewhere for his $14.5 per in the offseason, putting his “total deal” only at 6 years, $77 million.

That would mean that 6 years, $77 mil (12.8 per year) is all we’d need to offer Deng to give him Bogut money. Factor in that Bogut was drafted #1 (Deng #7), Deng’s tough year last year, and the possibility that Deng doesn’t get $14.5 mil from another team next year… and I’d have to think he’d be willing to accept a 6 year, $70 million dollar deal – giving up $7 million in return for the guaranteed money upfront.

6 years, $70 mil. Offer that, and Deng’s agent tells him to sign.

by YaoPau on Jul 23, 2008 1:55 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

I Agree, that sounds fair

Its good or if Deng wants we can do a 3 year with a 4th option for like 45

by NamingRightsOnSale on Jul 23, 2008 3:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bogut isn't getting that much

that’s with incentives. He won’t make most of those incentives. His deal is only guaranteed for $60 mill. And Bogut is a decent center with some pluses – there aren’t many decent centers in the league. There are a lot of good small forwards though.

by KT on Jul 23, 2008 7:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

By this point in their careers, I don't think draft position should have anything to do with it.

If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.

by wjb1492 on Jul 23, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't help but wonder

If all this despair is manufactured by an information void hitting a 24-hour news cycle? Paxson has consistently been close to the vest with all information concerning roster/personnel moves. That doesn’t mesh well when media is expected to churn headlines at a constant rate. I can easily see this collision leading to far too much being read into what little the media does get or even out-right speculation being presented as fact.

Maybe I’m just too patient and willing to let the process unfold.

An aside, I love the phrase “future cap space in jerseys.” Someone should go through all the NBA rosters and replace the names with that phrase where applicable.

--Torch

by torch on Jul 23, 2008 5:51 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

I tend to agree

It’s not that long ago everyone was talking about how the Bulls do, indeed, have some leverage here, because the QO is such an awful deal for the players. I don’t want them gone, but I don’t get the sentiment for giving them a blank check.

Second, in re the op, Paxson doesnt have leverage because he’s apparently sitting this one out while Reinsforf and Gar Foreman take care of things.

by Sports2 on Jul 23, 2008 6:54 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

However

The report that several teams have declared open poaching season on us doesn’t exactly help us.

by Sports2 on Jul 23, 2008 7:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah I sort of glossed over that

if Paxson has no role in negotiations anyway….

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2008 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder why BJ left the club

He even ventured over to the “other side” with the agents and now represents Rose.

Armstrong in the clutch again.

by NBA Observer on Jul 23, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right on

I do think if Paxson can’t bring either of them back or at least if he can’t sign them can’t make a single move this offseason, he should be gone…

by majoyenrac on Jul 23, 2008 7:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Great point: If Paxson fails to keep Gordon and Deng, then what's he done?

Positives:
Worked a dismal and uninspired franchise into a playoff team in very short order.
Drafted the best “immediate impact” player in the 2007 draft in Joakim Noah (outside of the first 3).

Neutrals:
“Lucked” into the No. 1 overall pick in a good year when they shouldn’t have even been in the lottery.
Cleared a roster out and created mild cap flexibility in five years. (over that period of time, it’s not that hard.
Gave a contract to a PG that is now deemed expendable at best.

Negatives:
Hired a coach that had heavy influence on the roster and eventually flamed out.
Drafted a boom or bust in Tyrus Thomas that had virtually no chance of cracking the lineup of the above-mentioned coach.
Overpaid for an aging, undersized, uninspired former DPOY from a ‘chief rival’.
Overpaid for an undersized, overinspired never DPOY SF who has turned into a ‘chucker’.
Drafted 2 players in one draft that failed to be “superstars” and then never came to terms to keep them in town even though they were the two best players on the team.

(I’ll gladly accept more positives or some rearranging.)

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 7:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trading Tyson

for P.J. Brown maybe? Even though I’ve heard Reinsdorf was the person who wanted Wallace and all that done.

B.J. for three.... KABOOM!

by chibullsfan03 on Jul 23, 2008 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well I'd add

That he pulled a fast one on the Cavs in ridding ourselves of Big Ben and getting 1 very useful piece in Gooden (who could serve more useful in a trade if we trade, which we won’t)....

We have the bad contract in Hughes, but he too is far more servicable than Big Ben….

So that’s a slam dunk trade win for teh Bulls in my mind. Hughes has talent too and if he played team ball with the new coaching staff, could really help us out should we lose Gordon and Hinrich in our guard spots….

The biggest negative I have on Paxson are that he traded Tyson for a nice trade piece in JR Smith and an even better trade piece in the expiring and still useful PJ Brown….and then trading JR Smith for complete garbage so that he could sign and overpay Griffin for no reason at all, and then letting PJ Brown complain publicly about his role and ask to be traded and have a nice tradable hefty salary to get some nice pieces and DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WITH IT, which definately helped to hurt the team this past year.

Then I’d also add that Paxson allowed all those Gasol and Kobe and KG rumours to infiltrate the team without doing his best to silence anything and then he still proceeded to do NOTHING.

Those are big negatives.

by majoyenrac on Jul 23, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sign these guys to three year deals

If they’re worth what they think they are, that’s enough time to show it because they haven’t shown it yet. If they end up being overpaid, hopefully the Bulls will be able to use their soon-to-expire contracts as a trade asset for the summer of 2010.

Don’t overpay these guys for more than three years. If that’s what it comes down to, then try to do a sign-and-trade and get something back in return. If that doesn’t work and only if that doesn’t work, and you only are left with the choices of either overpaying these guys for longer than three years or letting them become an UFA next year, the latter is the lesser of the two evils and would allow you a shot at the shopping spree in 2010.

Now is that really odd tough guy talk?

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 7:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I still fail to see the horrible restriction on the club of a few million dollars.

It’s a really poor strategy to put all your hope into one FA year. I’d rather take back “pennies-on-the-dollar” in trading Nocioni and Hinrich in the future than be stuck in the lottery for the next 5 years.

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not so much about 2010 as going forward.

I realize 2010 is a longshot but I’d still like a shot nonetheless. I’d be willing to give up that shot but not if it’s in return for overpaying these two guys over the longer-term. The point is that the lesser of the two evils of being locked into a long-term liability for overpaid players versus letting them walk is the latter. Let’s avoid this situation all-together and sign these guys to rich short-term deals!

The fact that you fail to see the restriction of a few million dollars after we saw teams like Philly get Brand by clearing as little as $3m baffles me. The fact that you’d rather take back “pennies-on-the-dollar” in trading overpaid assets in the future baffles me even more. Because of these glaring philosophical differences, it is apparent you and I will not agree on this topic at all.

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right... because Philly wasn't able to clear that space relatively easily.

Denver didn’t just clear $10 million in a fairly easy fashion either. Yes, that space matters, but NO, it’s not hard to create. And yes, I’d rather take pennies on the dollar for Nocioni and Hinrich than get nothing in return for Deng and Gordon. What a horrible thought.

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Philly had to be quite resourceful in a short-period of time

and were essentially bailed out by teams willing to take on those players’ salary. That was not an easy slam dunk and a lot of credit has gone to Stefanski for the job he did: because it wasn’t easy.

And Denver had to literally give away the former DPoY and team’s interior presence. That cap space came at a price; Denver couldn’t afford to take any salary back which is one reason they had to turn down the Nets’ offer of guys like Sean Jefferson, Josh Boone, and take that conditional second round pick.

These sound easy to you?

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sean Williams, not Jefferson

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Easier than you think

The Bulls issue is not that you can or can not clear space, it is that they misvalue their own talent. When Deng had value they were hesitant to pull the trigger because of his upside. Now they do not want to pay for that upside but want the same guy that is more important than KG, Pau and others to take less money because he had a bad season.

The NBA is full of overpaid players and you can either overpay your own players who are above average (see Deng and Gordon) or you can pray that you can have space to sign a better player in the future.

PS Any NBA player who is underpaid based on production is a malcontent and gets the money anyway

by bullschwaa on Jul 23, 2008 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If not "easier", they sound more common-place...

...landing a superstar talent outright in FA. I’m sure we could count a few of these deals every year. But signing a star-level talent outright? How often does that happen?

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

right

Even Elton Brand this year…he’s nearing the edge of his prime and just came off a major injury. Baron Davis also will likely be a bad deal by the time it’s over.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2008 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very rarely

because teams understandably don’t like to let legit superstars go, especially for nothing. Organizations don’t seem to have a problem giving legit max contract guys their max money. But I don’t think the retaining teams, at this point at least, are providing enough incentive for that player to stay, assuming the dollars/offers from other teams will be comparable.

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Further, you have yet to make a convincing argument why a sign-and-trade in 2010...

...is not a viable option.

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It can be a viable option if the opportunity presents itself.

If they’re worth what they think they are, that’s enough time to show it because they haven’t shown it yet. If they end up being overpaid, hopefully the Bulls will be able to use their soon-to-expire contracts as a trade asset for the summer of 2010.

This would be an option as part of a sign-and-trade involving one of the superstar free agents, probably having to involve three teams.

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is not entirely in Paxson's hands.

So the leverage that you perceive may or may not be with Pax. Whether or not you agree, the league is structured with a soft salary cap and luxury tax threshhold. Its this luxury tax that our owner has balked at paying unless the team is winning. We have not been winning. This leaves Paxson roughly $17 million to spend on these two players. So, overpaying for one will basically spell the demise of the other as a Bull and I am okay with that…but I am not convinced that Paxson is okay with that. In the spirit of your post, I don’t think you would be okay with one of these two walking.

Although I don’t know what has been offered, I have seen this play out every offseason all around the NBA…Remember Anderson Varrajeo last summer…The players pout and make threats and pretend to have drop dead dates and whine…I expect one of the two players in question will be signed, and Pax will make a brilliant salary dump move with the other…because neither is a franchise player.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 23, 2008 9:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Neither is a franchise player, neither is a superstar, neither is an an all-star

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

At this point in thier career neither was

Billups, Prince, J. Johnson, etc.

by Blacknight23 on Jul 23, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and

they got paid accordingly

by JSlakov on Jul 23, 2008 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Joe Johnson got a max deal.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok

He’s a good example of someone who got paid on potential and it worked out. However if we could get a future Most Improved Player and two first round picks for Deng, I’d be happy to do so.

Usually though paying for potential hasn’t worked out and guys who became all stars late in their careers like Billups and Nash had some smaller contracts before hand.

by JSlakov on Jul 23, 2008 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Last I remember

Billups was an all star last year, as was Joe Johnson. Joe Johnson likely will at least be an all star next season, Billups is definately also still in consideration.

Prince is one of the more underrated players in the league, but for obvious reasons he’s been hidden behind Sheed and Billups…...that might change though with the new coach.

Prince is all around a better Battier (as talented defensively with more offensive weapons).

Not bad to have on your team, and he’s cheaper

by majoyenrac on Jul 23, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

at this stage in career i.e 4th season restricted

Noone of them were there are tons more. Bogut isnt an all star even curry and crawford got thier money. point is the Bulls is raking in big bucks. We can afford to pay players WE picked.

by Blacknight23 on Jul 23, 2008 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Got your point

I don’t get the BOGUT extension at all. Milwaukee might have done better working a trade for Okafor and I think Emeka’s a better player now and tomorrow than Bogut.

You can’t throw the Knicks into this discussion, they gave Duhon the entire MLE…..enough said.

by majoyenrac on Jul 23, 2008 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're really in love

with Okafor aren’t you?

"The Zen philosopher Basho once wrote: 'A flute with no holes is not a flute, And a doughnut with no hole is a Danish.' He was a funny guy."

by Ugh It Live! on Jul 23, 2008 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Europe?

With Childress signing in Greece, I’d be interested to see if Deng’s camp will start to explore Euro options. While the European teams haven’t to date made crazy money offers to American players, it seems like Deng would be an excellent choice. Fundamentally sound (if athletically awkward) with experience living overseas – he’d be a great fit for any of the new wave of European owners (particularly new money Russian oil barons) to make a splash.

As the league continues to emphasize its global reach, I think the transfer of players, particularly quality american players, will become more prevalent, particularly if the luxury tax remains in place and the dollar continues to fall.

by Gene Banks on Jul 23, 2008 9:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

funny mention on BullsBeat

If Gordon went to the Euroleague he’d be like the 6-time MVP.

But I agree that it’s a more plausible option for Deng considering non-basketball reasons.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2008 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i wondered that too...

especially after seeing Childress signing in Europe.

There’s a chance Deng could get more money in Europe. I’d prefer we lock him up, so we don’t lose him for nothing.

by swede2287 on Jul 23, 2008 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

at least

he wouldn’t be helping another team get better.

by JSlakov on Jul 23, 2008 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Paxson's in a great position with huge leverage.

Everyone (well, almost everyone—except me and maybe Dionysus) believes the Bulls have to figure out a way to pay both Deng and Gordon, or, at worst, at least one of them then hope for the best on the other.

I say…forget both of them. We’ve seen what they are, and they’re not championship material. But who out there is?

Iggy.

We could build a legit contender out of Rose and Iggy. Offer Iggy money that Philly would be hopelessly unable to match. Then cut both Deng and Gordon loose.

I’d much rather have one potentially really great player (Iggy) than two potentially really average, or slightly above average players (D&G).

You can do it, Pax!

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 23, 2008 10:05 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs

Iggy is in the same tier and D&G in my opinion

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stats agree too

Their per-36 stats from last season are comparable even though Iguodala had a “breakout” year and Deng was playing with nagging injuries. Also, Iguodala is two years older than Deng.

by paxson43 on Jul 23, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

His first 2 1/2 years he had to defer to Iverson

Last year truly was his “break-out” from out of Iverson’s shadow year.

Iguodala and Rose would put so much more pressure on defenses than Rose + D or G.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 23, 2008 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Pressure against teams that don't know how to defend the paint...sure

That’s still a duo that can’t shoot effectively. Good PGs need to have a perimeter player that can shoot the lights out from the outside, it makes their lives so much easier.

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 23, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Those were, um, last year's stats.

They weren’t deflated by career numbers. So your breakout point is meaningless.

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

what?

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 23, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I assumed....

...that Pax43 linked to a career comparison, and you were arguing that the two were only close because Iguodala was stifled in his first two years while Deng wasn’t. Then I see they weren’t: it becomes that Iggy’s “breakout year” was comparable to Deng’s down year.

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I meant recent Iguodala compared to year 1 & 2 Iguodala.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 23, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know. And recent,. breakout Iggy = younger, down-year Deng.

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not denying that Deng's got and great mid-range jumpshot...

and a great mid-range jumpshot, and…well, you know, he’s got that great mid-range jumpshot.

Deng has found the perfect niche for a fairly unathletic wing player. I don’t know what else he can do to improve. He’s slow and he can’t jump—that cuts out a lot of his options for improvement.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 23, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Extending range and adding post-up moves...

...don’t require exceptional athletic ability.

And, well, I should know this by now, but… if you think that’s all Deng has, then really are misinformed and ignorant to basketball.

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

We've already seen the failed post moves experiment...

and he’s made what, nine 3 pointers the last two seasons combined? That sounds like a guy who’s mindset is to extend his range!

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 23, 2008 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right. I'm deferring all further basketball knowledge 2 u.

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Make a point and defend it.

Don’t just attack.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 23, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow, and now you're telling people what to do?

You do need your own blog.

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Yap, yap, yap," said the little lap dog.

Any time now you can come out from behind Matt’s chair.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 23, 2008 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

don't drag me into this

I need to use a Paxson model for this blog: everyone goes at the end of their rookie deals.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trade unwanted commenters for another blog's trash?

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 23, 2008 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hah!

I get where you’re going with this.

Maybe you could trade me to Portland for Mortimer?

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 23, 2008 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fine. He's still young and had horrible coaching

Now why don’t you come up with something correct for once?

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Deng's not extending his range

Skiles told Deng to decrease his range and he stopped taking 3pts. That helped Deng get to this point now, and he’s still getting better. He’ll attack the basket more and can be the most effective bull at the basket at rare moments. How can you forget about his defensive skills and shot-blocking. I’ve seen Tayshaun Prince-like blocks and glimpses numerous times. Deng should benefit from Rose maybe even the most (alot may not agree).

by JayDangles on Jul 24, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

Between his lack of handle and his lack of lateral quickness he’s not a natural slasher. I have however seen him experiment with using his length for post ups. He’s kind of tentative so far, but I think his low key demeanor will help him have the patience to develop that, and not rush the post stuff.

by iBurkey on Jul 24, 2008 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

heard you the first twelve times

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2008 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and how do you propose we throw money at iggy?

we’d have to do a sign and trade (which obviously isn’t what you are suggesting) or i assume renounce the rights to deng and gordon first, which would be an enormous risk.

and iggy is good, but i just don’t agree that he is so much better than deng.

by Jaina on Jul 23, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Iggy would be overpaid, too

if he got what he’s been asking for. He may get it because Philly is now on the verge of legitimate contention,. Winning breeds generosity (i.e. see Hinrich and Noce).

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought we had until the end of next season to sort that out.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 23, 2008 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Paxson's only leverage

is the qualifying offer of $4.5 mil that Deng would have to sign if he doesn’t agree to an extension.

I don’t know what % cut an agent takes from a deal, but the cut from $4.5 million is a whole lot less than it would be from $11-12, so the agent better be damn sure that Luol can get that back in the future. And of course, he isn’t, because Luol hasn’t shown anything besides the ability to hit an open jumpshot.

The agent is using this 2 weeks thing as a negotiation tool, and I’d be shocked if we don’t lock up Deng longterm. The QO is just too much of a financial gamble for the agent to take.

by YaoPau on Jul 23, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

His other leverage is what teams will be under the cap next year?

Not the Lakers, Jazz or Pistons. The Heat will, so that’s a problem if they’re willing to pay quite a pit for Deng.

So I guess Deng’s asking price just went up.

by Sports2 on Jul 23, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

portland's a big one too

that is, if no one screws them by playing darius miles for 10 games.

by Jaina on Jul 23, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heat would probably rather go after Boozer

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why?

Deng’s a better complement. He keeps Beasley down low so he doesn’t suffer the Kirilenko Syndrome.

by tyger1147 on Jul 23, 2008 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's just been the hot rumor

and Riley loves legitimate big men. I just think after this year we’ll all see just how much closer Beasley is to a 3 than a 4, even if the rebounding numbers are there.

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pax passed on Iggy in the same draft with two picks

Demand he resign before you offer up a lame scenerio. Theres a cap hold on Deng and Gordon so the bulls couldn’t offer Iggy the Max without renoucing thier Deng and BG first. See Darko last year.

by Blacknight23 on Jul 23, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your summary of how the CBA dictates

what kind of league this is was spot on.

In some ways, this is a moving target for Pax. Edict #1: Make the Bulls a playoff team. Done. Edict #2: Make the Bulls a contender. Major setbacks ensue. All the while, players are having bad years—they’re aging, they’re getting tired of their overly intensive coach, they’re comparing themselves to others who’ve gotten big contracts, and they’re responding negatively to rumors and tough bargaining by the franchise (and in Kirk’s case, they’re getting married and buying mansions, or whatever his excuse was). The coaches change, the personnel changes, and every few years the CBA potentially changes.

But with the CBA as it now stands, Edict #1 and Edict #2 are almost mutually exclusive. At least, in the Bulls’ case, they are (the Blazers show every sign of having success for both Edicts, though they have yet to make the playoffs in the rugged Western conference). To Pax’s own credit and detriment, he hit upon the right combination of nice-guy players and browbeating coach, and his guys seem to have peaked in time to make an immediate impact with regard to Edict #1. But those same players have flamed out before being able to really succeed with Edict #2.

So although this roster looked great in ‘05-’07, just one season removed from the playoffs, the CBA is prohibitive in terms of offering the Bulls real flexibility in terms of a roster makeover. It is crazy to think that the one saving grace may be lucking into the #1 overall…

"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris

by bullhockey on Jul 23, 2008 11:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It is crazy to think that the one saving grace may be lucking into the #1 overall…

Correct. Yet, Paxson needs some more luck.. Like ..

Larry Hughes declares that he’s retiring to become a priest to take the vow of poverty to release the Bulls from the rest of his salary, effective immediately.

by exult463 on Jul 23, 2008 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why are we always looking at Deng and Gordon together...

...these are separate deals. I’d hate to see Deng go, that would be a big blow. BG leaving would be easier to stomach…too much of a gunner in my book, only ok in limited minutes off the bench.

by bullsfaninbigapple on Jul 23, 2008 12:00 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

Honestly, if it came down to having to choose one

I may lean towards Gordon. I think he has more upside of the two even though he’s a little older. I’m surprised there is no fanpost asking which of the two to keep if only one could be retained.

Deng is a very nice player but I see him more as the small forward version of Rip Hamilton. After Rip’s first few years, what you saw is what you got. He is a nice player but he essentially hit his peak. Sure, he has expanded his game out a bit to include some recent 3-pt range (similar to what Deng could expand to) but he’s pretty much been the same player for how many years now? We’ve also seen this with Kirk, he is essentially the same player he’s been since Year 2. I almost see Deng as the same way but he’s so young it’s hard to be sure. PERs may flutter up and down, career years and down years will happen, but at the core level these are the same players just with more experience and development time.

Though BG is older, his is the type of game that could break out to a 25 PPG scorer because he has more explosive ability and he seems to have the killer’s disposition. Obviously his height at the 2 guard position is a huge issue and certainly hurts his market value, but in terms of pure talent and “ceiling potential”, I think BG clearly has the nod on Deng.

If the Bulls could only keep one I’m not so sure I’d go for Deng even though he appears to be the clear cut choice on paper. It may come down to this point.

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's Deng by far

Deng won’t give up whatever he gets. Deng actually has the body and height to attack the rim and get to the line. Deng’s problem is footwork and range. Deng’s worth is 12.5 – 14 mil per.

Gordon’s negatives are all over the place, but he can score. That’s worth something. It’s worth 11-13 mil per.

Pax…er Gar and Jerry should be talking about breaking the cap. If they’re not, we’re dead already. It’ll be back to 2000 with kids and cons in Bulls uniforms.

by NBA Observer on Jul 23, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's my initial reaction as well

but when I take some time to think about it, I’m not so sure. I don’t think range is a problem as much as it’s an area Deng chose to put on the back burner and develop later, after he develops his mid-range game. I expect to see a more stretched out Deng next year. I do agree that Deng’s ability to attack the rim is underrated, but that may be because he doesn’t have the disposition to attack on a consistent basis. Or of greater concern, maybe he doesn’t have the athleticism to attack it on a consistent basis. I just don’t think Deng has the disposition to ever be a consistent post threat, but you didn’t mention that as one of his virtues anyway.

In terms of him not giving up as much as he gets, it depends. I’ve seen RJ light up Deng consistently. I’ve seen Tayshaun post up Deng like child’s play. I’ve seen Deng play Pierce well on more than one occassion, but I don’t think that’s a trend to be depended on. Again, the question boils down to athleticism, not skill.

I just think Deng’s production is more replacable at the 3 than BG’s ability to carry the team for a quarter or more. I have been highly critical of BG so this change of heart surprises me a bit and I realize that I still harbor some opinion that Ty would make as good a 3 as he would a 4, or could play the hybrid role at the 3 as well as he could the 4, allowing Noah to move down to the 4 where he may be better suited. For those who adamantly say Ty isn’t a 3, then will you at least call him a jump shooting, perimeter roaming 4?

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

As pointed out ad nauseum above,

Deng already has a great mid-range jump shot. I believe that if he stopped working on his 3 at all, it was probably to work on his post game.

by bullhockey on Jul 23, 2008 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't disagree about the mid-range game

just commenting that he put his long-range game on the back burner to focus on developoing that mid-range shot which is his calling card now.

I have seen little to no evidence that Deng has worked on his post game. He may very well have, but I haven’t seen it in game, rather just read reports that he was working on it.

I think Deng is an opportunistic slasher moreso than a natural one, mainly due to a lack of elite athletic ability. He’ll go to the hole when the defense is on its heels or in the flow of the offense but I rarely see him aggressively attack the hole like he’s trying to get to the line. I don’t know if athletically he can.

by messwiththebull on Jul 24, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

For me it’s BG too. Mainly because he’s the most irreplacable of the two. We have Thabo, Noc, maybe Tyrus to pick up some of the slack of losing Deng (not all the slack, but a good portion).

Gordon’s been our entire offense in many of his games….having a real facilitator in Rose might work wonders with BG…..

BG’s a one trick pony, but he’s one helluva one trick pony….there are few players like him in the league (Manu’s a better version because he’s got more than that 1 trick but has the instant offense of BG), JR Smith has some comparatives when he’s explosive but is less consistent and is playing alongside 2 high quality offensive players that have to make his game easier. Michael Redd is a comparative to Gordon and both likely have similar career arcs.

Redd is ridiculously overpaid and slightly better, but I wouldn’t say ridiculously better and wouldn’t be surprised if Gordon bests Redd in the next 2 years (Redd’s also 4 years older, which likely helps make him currently better)...

by majoyenrac on Jul 23, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not a 3

Please for my own sanity…people please stop referencing TT playing SF. Of course he can be in a big lineup but Duhon played the 3 in small lineups with BG and Hinrich in the past. TT is not a suitable replacement for Deng. If Noc is your starting 3 then you’re in trouble and Thabo, as long as he is, is more of a 2 who can play some 3. Deng is more irreplaceable at this point. We still have Hughes, Thabo, and Hinrich to play the 2.

Yes Gordon can score, but he’s only a good scorer, not a great one. He only averages a few more points than Deng but takes more shots. And let’s not forget he can and often does have very off night. He’ll go 2-14 one night then 9-20 the next and then go 4-18 in another. It’s a scoring rollercoaster and I want to get off! He doesn’t get the line enough and he’s to small to finish and one’s. He just drives wildly into the lane, gets a little bump and goes flying onto the floor with no chance of finshing. Good thing he’s a great free throw shooter. Gordon is what he is with little room to improve beside shot selection. Move BG, get some assets for him and resign Deng. At least he’s more consitant than BG and he plays both ends of the floor.

by ronmexibull on Jul 23, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Deng needs to be more assertive

as a scorer. And if BG is no longer around and more scoring responsibility is placed on Deng I believe he could average in the low 20’s. Similar to what BG does. And please don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate Ben Gordon at all. I just don’t want to pay him what he think’s he worth. I’d rather spend the cash on Deng and keep a little flexablity for the near future.

by ronmexibull on Jul 23, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not about replacing the position

as much as it is replacing the production.

by messwiththebull on Jul 23, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

but like I posted, I believe Deng’s scoring would go up with more offensive responsibility. And It’s not like BG’s replacement won’t score at all. Hinrich could move to a more natural non playmaking guard position and his scoring is bound to go up. It’s yet to be seen how VND will be able to reign in Hughe’s shot selection, but Hughes does have talent and can get to the rim and score. Plus Thabo is bound to improve as a scorer as we started to see last season. So I believe the team as a whole can easily make up for BG’s points. Though they would miss his 3pt shooting, which would complement Rose nicely. But I wouldn’t pay a spot up shooter $11-13 mil per year. And I call BG a spot up shooter only because he won’t have the ball in his hands nearly as much next season with Rose handling the point. If the Bulls had the money to reup both of them and not go over the tax threshold and lose cap flexability for the coming years than I say sign both of them but fact is they don’t have the cap room or willingness to go over it. So my choice would be 100% Deng!

by ronmexibull on Jul 23, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I used to think of TT as a 4 only, but

in a recent Bulls audio clip of an interview with Pax on Bulls.com, Pax himself calls TT a ‘tweener. I was shocked, but oh, well (shrug). If even Pax admits to it then I guess I’ve got to stop denying it…

by bullhockey on Jul 23, 2008 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will continue to live in denial.

by ronmexibull on Jul 24, 2008 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see a 3 far more than a 4

his frame, his athleticism, his ability to run the floor (despite what Skiles says), his propensity to put the ball on the floor, his preference for jump shots and a perimeter based attack, being more suited to defend 3s than 4s, etc. The Bulls have tried to make him a 4 or a hybrid at best but it’s hard to make a player a position that he himself doesn’t believe he is. If you can’t get that player to buy in, it makes that transition even more difficult, in my opinion.

by messwiththebull on Jul 24, 2008 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the only thing about that is the lack of height

in a good squad, we can probably get away with having deng start at the sf, even though he may have issues with the more explosive ones. Im not sure how we can do that with BG. I really appreciate his gym ratness and his especially fall 2006 obvious working on his to the hole game, but he’s short, and a D liability still. I think you are right about the 25 ppg with derrick opening up the game for him. And the bonus of BG is with upgraded teammates he will really feast on the open shots.

by iBurkey on Jul 24, 2008 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It wouldn't shock me at all if Deng

spurns the Bulls for Eurocash.

But why wouldn’t Gordon do this too? He’s got the UK citizenship now. He’s “gifted” in the world of travel.

The problem with Childress is what happens to his Bird rights? By taking the deal he’ll have to start all over if he wants to return to the NBA.

Lastly, the exchange rate of dollars to euros is going to decline as more land leases are released by the White House for drilling to begin.

by NBA Observer on Jul 23, 2008 2:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Atlanta retains his rights

he doesn’t lose anything. if he wants to come back he’ll be a RFA with the Hawks

by Blacknight23 on Jul 23, 2008 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks

From what I draw from your other posts, you seem to know the CBA pretty well.

by NBA Observer on Jul 23, 2008 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

actually

they only retain his rights for 2 years. And they may want to relinquish those rights to get under the cap.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2008 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

according to POOPSWORLD

as long as the Hawk tender him an offer every summer, they will retain his rights

by Jesse07 on Jul 24, 2008 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

they might

but im sure if they renouce him Childress will be back in the NBA one minute later

by Blacknight23 on Jul 24, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I doubt that quickly.

He “seems” like the type to honor his contract, if for no other reason than to enjoy Greece for a year. Plus, he has opt-out clauses every year. Plus, he’d have to find someone w/ cap space to sign him.

by tyger1147 on Jul 24, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

NOT LITERALLY ONE MINUTE

One year will go by so fast it will make your head spin

by Blacknight23 on Jul 24, 2008 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Europe is pretty cool

Better money, better food, and real team basketball. What a concept And as a bonus, the hosting team showers the refs for the game that night with gifts.

by iBurkey on Jul 24, 2008 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs

Gordon

Shot just over 40% from three point range last season. He is really the only long range threat we have on our team. Rose wll be much less effective if he does not have a confident shooter to kick it to after he breaks the defense down. I think resigning both deng and gordon is the right move, even if we have to pay them a couple million over what the bulls think their market value is. We have two contracts in nocioni and hinrich that we could shed relatively easily should we run into cap problems. I have a feeling we may be able to deal them to a potential high lottery team and get a swap of first round picks (2nd round picks would be useless…someone should tell the nuggets that). This, of course, depends on how they play this upcoming season. I believe both Hinrich and Nocioni are worth moving for cap space and a potential quality starter if it frees up money to keep Deng and Gordon.

by bosh on Jul 23, 2008 2:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

outside shooting threat

IMO, Deng and Gordon are the only two guys left on the team has that consistent outside shot. Deng can be very reliable from a number of spots when he isn’t injured like last year and we all know how good Gordon is with offense. The rest of our guys still need to work on their shot. Thomas might eventually have that smooth mid-range jumper close to what Joe Smith had. Thabo might start shooting instead of sending up flat, line drives towards the basket. Hinrich might learn how to get the ball through the hoop instead of pinging it off the front of the rim…why cross our fingers and hope this will be the year for them when we have two young players right now who can give us that consistency in the meanwhile. And that is the consistency that Rose will need to get comfortable as a point guard. Half of it will be having the right guys to pass to.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Jul 23, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't call BG a consistant shooter

he’s kinda streaky.

by ronmexibull on Jul 23, 2008 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's pretty consistent from long range

Which is what you want on a team that is going to be dominated by a PG. His consistency in the other parts of his offensive game should improve once the burden of creating offense for others and himself is lifted with the addition of Rose.

I was a multiple time all star throughout my little league career. Won 5 championships- 4 in a row- thats more in a row than MJ… (kenwo4life@aol.com)

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 23, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would move Kirk over Noce.

Noce can also light it up from outside, and will go to the hole on the dish, like in the dribble drive motion Rose was a part of in College.

by iBurkey on Jul 24, 2008 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Noc would be good in college.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 24, 2008 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Difference Between Deng and Gordon Is WE HAVE NO OTHER SMALL FORWARD!

Wake me when the Bulls and Bears get serious about winning again…..................

by hhirb on Jul 23, 2008 3:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

only if you promise to be asleep until then.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2008 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thabo and Tyrus can both play SF?

by iBurkey on Jul 24, 2008 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

JEEZ!

by hhirb on Jul 23, 2008 3:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Minutes

If you sign BG long term it will cause a log jam in the backcourt. Hughes will get less mins which won’t make him happy and possibly distrupt the team chemistry a bit. Thabo won’t get mins to continue to develope. Look what he was doing last season once he got consitant mins. And given Krause’s man crush on Hinrich and the fact that a lot of teams are finding cheap vet gaurds via free agency, it makes it less likey to be able to move Hinrich. And it’s never a great idea to move someone when their stock is low. But Pax and Co. can’t let BG leave for nothing. Do a sign and trade this offseason or sign him to a short 3 year deal at the money he wants but put him on the trading block ASAP. Trading dealine 2009 or next offseason. BG is not a long term solution at SG.

by ronmexibull on Jul 23, 2008 4:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

krause???

by Blacknight23 on Jul 23, 2008 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

God forbid Hughes get less minutes

by Big D on Jul 23, 2008 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LH

LAURA doesnt deserve any minutes…

by NamingRightsOnSale on Jul 23, 2008 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's never funny.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 23, 2008 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My bad

Reinsdorf. Guess I should read these things a little closer before I post.

by ronmexibull on Jul 23, 2008 5:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The more I read on the Deng/Gordon sign, don't sign, sign/trade, sign then trade a few years later

the more confused I am. I like both Deng and Gordon and want to find out how they fit in with D Rose. I do not want to over-pay and lock ourselves into something that we will regret. I am not worried about a European offer because the Bulls are probably offering Deng something in the 9-10 mil range for multiple years which European teams cannot match, even with the strong euro. Childress was offered 5.5 – 6 million by Atlanta via the Atlanta paper

This is a great diary. Matt has a great way of provoking us to think. My own bias is that both sides are nervous but Deng/Gordon have the least leverage. They have no offers or we certainly would have heard about them. Their threat to play for the QA is very risky for them. If that happens and the Bulls do not see them in their future they may not be used as much and this could compromise their ability to get a big offer next summer. If they do have a great season the Bulls are still in a position to sign them to the best offer. We definitely do not want ot lose them for nothing but as of now Deng/Gordon’s options are limited.

by chgobr on Jul 23, 2008 9:27 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

AGREED!

by Bulls Mouthpiece on Jul 24, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Its not just about them leaving to another team

didn’t we learn anything about chemistry this season kiddies?

by Blacknight23 on Jul 24, 2008 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, we didn't have it

by messwiththebull on Jul 24, 2008 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and this is John Paxson's fault

see numerous trade scenerios no trades

by Blacknight23 on Jul 24, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Deng must be retained and Gordon's future here is far less certain

Luol is our most consistent personality out of our young “core” which is often overlooked. Until BWallace decided to switch his leadership focus to comedy leader with the bench during (frequent) blowouts, Deng was steadily becoming the leader in work ethic during games (as hinrich and noc began to falter) and Gordon offers you the best shooting in the nba once in a while. NOTHING ELSE at all. I always believed that unless Gordon could learn to improvise at the basket and pass the ball, he’d be almost useless. And how come he dribbles the ball off his foot at least once a game. He’s lucky there’s no stat for that. I highly doubt theres any threat of losing Gordon in the near-future due to high offers from competition! He can be like a super-Pargo w/o Defense or passing or intensity. I’d be pumped. And the point about Isiah Thomas being Paxson’s savior in sign-and-trades has alot of validity. Isiah should reconsider his friendship with Pax. If Pax loses Deng, who can be a deadly mid-range shooter for Rose to find out-of-nowhere, then Pax should be fired. His GM legacy appears to be lessening quickly and no end is in sight. If he wanted Rose over Beasley then losing the best midrange shooter(arguably) in the nba would be EXTREMELY detrimental. Deng is young still too which is a great thing. Wait it out with Gordon and take the money they save and give it to Deng. If not, we end up with a lottery pick next year again.Not that we couldnt still use one…..

by JayDangles on Jul 24, 2008 2:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Dribble ball off foot = turnover

by tyger1147 on Jul 24, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right about that! Lol! 99% of his did at least.

by JayDangles on Jul 24, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with the ball off foot bit

I’ve also seen Ben’s body get ahead of the dribble to the point the ball hit off his chin, resulting in a TO. I swear there are times I think Ben is a little too muscular/strong to be handling the ball and attempting to drive like he does. It’s like he’s pounding the hell out of the ball and BAM, it bounces off some part of his body.

But let’s see what he does when he can play a pure 2 guard rather than having to take on more ball handling duties. With Rose, I believe BG can be a pure 2 guard (albeit a tiny one) and will have less opportunities to turn the ball over off of some part of his body.

by messwiththebull on Jul 24, 2008 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, the last thing we want is ben handling the ball...

we tried it last year and he looked awful. dont know his numbers as far as assist/turnover numbers, but he is not a good decision maker. the only decision he’s good at is letting the ball fly…
But when he’s on, he’s on.

by scottie33 on Jul 24, 2008 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

“pounding the hell out of the ball and BAM”
Immediate perfect mental image.

Agree though- he seems to be really pushing himself to improve….

by iBurkey on Jul 24, 2008 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

We've already seen enough of his 2 guard game

to know he gets absolutely exploited on defense and is not able to finish in traffic consistently. He can really beat some ppl off of the dribble but he seems to have forgotten about the “giant killer” (as Johnny Kerr loves to say) that used to frequently bail him out. These days i am very used to the sight of a blocked Ben Gordon laying on the ground and I usually think,”man, it’s a good thing BG is so strong cuz otheriwise he’d be dead, lol. If we want a guy who sometimes decides to play hard and is nothing but a streaky scorer…..I’d rather have Jalen Rose again, at least he brought some energy to the table as he watched you score. He’s not a starter and he wants starter money! Deng should get paid though….

by JayDangles on Jul 25, 2008 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My thoughts exactly!

by ronmexibull on Jul 25, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

fuck the bulls

Deng declined a five-year, $57.5 million extension last off-season and the Bulls, following a dismal season, haven’t approached that $11.5 million annual average.

the trib says the negotiations are still wide open.

i don’t want them to be. let’s wrap this shit up. but to not even offer the same supposed salary (which i still have doubts was actually offered) is a downright insult to deng. this shit is ridiculous.

by Jaina on Jul 25, 2008 8:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah this is ridiculous,

Pax has created an environment of chaos to the point of this? Rheinsdorf steps in for his puppet GM? Deng might be gone already…...If he goes this rebuilding is restarting from the beginning. The bulls management is becoming a joke….bad enough we took BGordon…..now we can’t even deal with his “superstar” contract or “personality”? I’m kidding he’d be signed for 7 milliion a year or less already if it were the Lakers or a team with a GM thats not impotent. Eddy Curry has yet to collapse on the court also btw. So Pax’s resume now includes being unable to deal with Deng or Gordon. Deng’s gonna end up on the bucks with Skiles kicking our tails and Pax can join Krause as a pariah,lol.

by JayDangles on Jul 25, 2008 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

chaos is exactly right

and i wish i knew what sort of figure the greek team would have offered luol. just to see what we possibly could have been competing with.

why it’s so dumb is beyond me. he deserves at least the 11.5 offer and if he doesn’t get it i don’t blame him for walking.

by Jaina on Jul 25, 2008 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

However, the fact that Deng turned down their feelers gives us some better leverage because we can pretty confidently say he wants to be here (in the NBA).

by Sports2 on Jul 26, 2008 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

what makes all of you

think deng is worth anything more than 5 yrs 57 is something i dont understand and yet nocs contract gets on your nerves

noc
PPG 13.2 RPG 4.20 APG 1.2 EFF + 11.06 24.6 minutes a game
deng
PPG 17.0 RPG 6.30 APG 2.5 EFF + 16.78 34 minutes per game

i know that deng in some ways is a better all round player but come on he is not the second coming or anything. if he walks he walks. there are so many small forwards available in every draft and deng has not been a pheonomenal player as of yet and will not in my opinion just another third option player who went out the last year along with gordon and tried to put up numbers and percentages which did not happen so as to claim a bigger contract. let them both walk. i honestly dont think this team is going to work out this way. we had 4 years of this crap. its time to get tt, noah and rose the time to play and add some key vets.

Bulls NBA CHAMPS BY 2010

by glycen on Jul 26, 2008 12:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs