Pay the men their money

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 2, 2008 9:40 PM CDT Comment 118 comments

It'll be happening more and more in a post-Sam Tribune, but I've yet to get over the annoying twinge I feel when KC "who will be shopped" Johnson sneaks his opinions into a report.

Deng and Gordon remain supremely confident players, and declining last year's lucrative offers was their right as restricted free agents. But what their decisions also did was signal a shift from the selfless play that had defined the previous three playoff teams to more individual agendas.

[From KC's ass to your ears. (or something.)]

Beyond the awful leap in logic (honestly, this whole post could be a rant over what he's saying), there's a semantic, yet important, error in that paragraph. Deng and Gordon weren't restricted free agents when they turned down the extensions. They were a year away from restricted free agency (i.e., now).

And that is why, when the extensions were offered, it was under the premise that each deal may not be up to perceived market value, but that was because they weren't on the market. They were still contractually under team control whether they signed extensions or not. Signing the extension would be forfeiting their ability to be on that market, in exchange for long-term security.

(It's also why the Bulls didn't really 'negotiate' with Luol or Ben at that time. They didn't have to, and while the players may not have thought so, I thought that tactic was fair. )

Especially after (but not limited to) the relatively poor season they both had, it's been instead framed (apologies to KC, reading John Jackson is a far worse alternative to your work) that at the time, these extensions were a complete gift on the organization's part, and that both players have since proven to not be worth that initial offer based on a bad year.

But that offer was made with the acknowledgement that it wasn't completely market-based. So it's not a given that the Bulls should offer less, the bad season is just one factor thrown in with the others that have changed from 12 months ago: the players being a year older, the ability to offer 6 years instead of 5, the qualifying offer, the new direction of the team, and the market. Not just the teams with cap room, but anybody with a desire to pay can start the mechanizations of possible sign/trades through agents and their suddenly-disgruntled clients.

What happened last season shouldn't be absolved, but it shouldn't close the book on anything either. I believe, and it's possible that the Bulls believe as well, that both players are worth more than the 5 years and $50m they were offered last season. I wouldn't say too much more (judging by Paxson's pace, there will be plenty of time to get into that), but I'd rather the Bulls be called 'dumb' for coming back with a comparable offer than everyone laughing at the 'dumb' Ben and Luol for turning down the money preseason. While they're playing for another team.

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This kind of talk makes me want to kick KC in the head

The players are selfish for wanting to secure long term committment from their employers? Yeah, selfish assholes! Does Tim Duncan play for free? What kind of logic is this?

No one said the Bulls had to break the bank for Ben and Lou. You pay them a fair market value, which after last season may not be as high as previously thought. That doesn’t mean you can be cheap bastards and act like the Bulls are a hotshot organization that can just be so obtuse to their players.

I hope Paxson isn’t this dense when it comes to contract negotiations. Get these deals over with soon, there is still a lot of questions that have to be answered about this roster.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 2, 2008 9:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't think Paxson is

it’d be especially disappointing if he changed his tune now after the Hinrich and Nocioni extensions.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 2, 2008 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But isnt selfish players and cheap ass owners the way that sports works

If you were a player and your career is very limited dont you grab for every last dollar, use every piece of leverage you have to get that dollar? Also, if you own a team dont you want to pay the players as little as they accept to keep your profits high and to have extra cash to go after other players?

As much as people think KC is a hack, he does raise good points, that is what does Paxson do to sign these players to a contract which does not damage the team’s future and not alienate the player. Im not a huge fan of KC but compared to J. Jackson and Mariotti I cant hate on him either.

A point that should have been brought up is, what is “fair market value” for these players? Is Gordon worth more than Deng or vice versa? should you pay Deng more than a Josh Howard or Correy Maggette? Two players that somewhat compare to Deng. Who does Gordon compare to, and what was that player paid? and so on

by wojcmic1 on Jul 2, 2008 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The thing that thing that stinks about both of these guys, especially Deng...

...is that they’re both still young. Gordon might not improve too much, but he’s a damn hard worker. And Deng is young enough that it can’t be ruled out that he won’t learn to shoot a 3 at a decent clip this summer and in 3-4 years add a light post move.

Do you pay Deng because he’s sort of like a 6 years older Josh Howard? Or do you pay him for what he might do? It’s such a tough situation.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

As far as ceilings go, I think Deng is still way below his

as compared to BG. I hope Deng is around for at least a few more years so we can see if he’s going to be capable of shooting the 3 consistently, as well as posting up his man with semi-regularity.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who does Gordon compare to?

Well, how about Piatkowski and Barry? I’ll bet they make a whole lot less than $6.4 million.

by hlac on Jul 2, 2008 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol. piatkowski and barry?

gordon compares to j. Terry from the mavericks he’s making around 9.5 next year check hoopshype

by Blacknight23 on Jul 3, 2008 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

Paxson really should just offer up the same amount as last year, and tell them that this time, it’s respectable.

by Option27 on Jul 2, 2008 9:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree.

Offer them the same deals and if they don’t want them, well GTFO of town then.

I’m much more concerned about Deng than Gordon, though. As long as he’s extended, I’ll be fairly pleased. Gordon would be a bonus.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm the opposite.

While Deng i the better all-around player, I’d feel more confident replacing his production and abilities w/ Thabo + Nocioni than replacing Gordon’s w/ Hinrich + Thabo. (this is long-term, I’m thinking, not this year and not really next either) It would be awesome if one of those smart people (like yfBB, hscs or Scotter) could give a statistical guess to those differing contributions.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I'm not a stat guy at all.

Best case we keep both, but I’d like to see what the poll results would be if the question were:

If you could only keep one player, which would you keep? BG or Deng?

I’m guessing Deng would probably win, but mostly due to the Hinrich love around here.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, as if it needed to be told, I couldn't really care who the 'poll' winner would be.

It’s not that I don’t respect others’ opinions, just that it’s a select few. And I almost always disagree w/ the masses on sports blog. Doesn’t mean I’m right, just that I typically disagree.

And I agree, keeping both would be my preference, too.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I forgot to include the disclaimer

of: “Not that this poll would mean anything,” but I think it would be semi-fascinating just to get a handle on what everyone else around here thinks. Not that it would affect my opinion in the least.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It would be interesting.

There is a lot of anti-Gordon around here, but there are a lot of people that have concluded that Deng isn’t a winner who shrinks in the 4th quarter. It’d be interesting.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Personally I feel it's tough

to classify a guy as a choke artist in the NBA when he’s only 23 and is still new to those types of situations at this high of a level. Maybe that’s just me, though. And really, that’s a whole other topic that doesn’t need to be beaten to the ground any more than it already has.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And no one ever annointed Deng as "team leader"

The Bulls never had anyone to put the weight of a loss on. Everyone just attached it to Deng because he seemingly has the most potential. I give him a lot of flak, but being a choke artist is not something I would attribute to him.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 2, 2008 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

To me, Deng's ceiling is 3rd banna on a championship team.

What that means to the Bulls right now? I’d say it means you sign him to an extension at all costs and then hope in 2010 you get a superstar and Rose can be the ideal second fiddle, with all of the rest of the pieces hopefully falling into place. How’s that for concise thinking!

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

even more concise

Rose is the superstar, Thomas is 2nd fiddle :)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 2, 2008 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's what's exciting about this.

And why it is so unfortunate that they haven’t worked w/ Thomas more.

If Rose is the superstar, and Thomas becomes that second-guy w/ Deng your third-best player, having 20+ ppg Ben Gordon and all-around talent Joakim Noah fighting it out as the 4th best player is pretty exciting.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i dunno about you

but I’d like at least one of our top three guys to be able to shoot a three pointer.

by JSlakov on Jul 2, 2008 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

I’m glad somebody mentioned it. If Deng is a 3rd option, Tyrus might at best become a 3rd option, also.

If we envision Rose as a 1st option, where will the real 2nd option arise that can hit an outside shot (or 3pt)

by exult463 on Jul 2, 2008 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hitting 3s s what role players are for.

But, Deng and Rose will likely both get to a point where whey can make a 3. Deng had no trouble making the ones he took this year.

by Scotter on Jul 2, 2008 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Hinrich could turn into a superstar ROLE player.

If that makes anysense? HInrich as a 5th or 6th best player on a team is amazing. He’s been the Bulls 2nd or 3rd since he’s been on the team.

by Mattchoo on Jul 3, 2008 7:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, when your fourth-best player

...is one of the best distance shooters in the history of the game, I think you’re doing alright.

by tyger1147 on Jul 3, 2008 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree if offensive is the only consideration

by exult463 on Jul 3, 2008 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That would be all kinds of awesome.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

from your mouth to

god’s ears

by gman2849 on Jul 3, 2008 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't want Rose to be 2nd fiddle

I want Rose to be destroyer of worlds, collector of souls. That’s his potential.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 2, 2008 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If your potential is that of being...

...”the most athletic ever at his position” (as Matt said he read), damn right that’s his potential.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

poor Jordan Farmar

gets no respect

by JSlakov on Jul 2, 2008 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

When Farmar can handle the ball like Rose...

...and be the same size as Rose (you know, 25 pounds heavier), maybe he will. Until then, why not quit making up opportunities to bash Rose.

And, of course, there’s always the caveat I put in there of “potential”, ya know.

by tyger1147 on Jul 3, 2008 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

well

athleticism is pretty much something you have or don’t. Yes you can hit the gym and get the best out of your body but there are limits. Obviously I was using Farmar because most people wouldnt think of him as the most athletic PG yet he outdid Rose at the combine. Its a little early to be saying Rose has that potential. Its like saying Beasley has the potential to be the best scorer ever. Sure, his college stats were historic but whats the point of setting the bar that high.

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You know there's a difference

between testing and actually using athleticism on the basketball court. There’s no need to bring in disingenuous examples like Farmer.

by Scotter on Jul 3, 2008 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course he knows that.

He also knows being 25 pounds heavier and having close to the same numbers in the combine makes for an argument as a “better athlete” in a basketball sense.

by tyger1147 on Jul 4, 2008 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So do I...it's just it will probably take longer than 2-3 seasons

until he’s destroying souls nightly :)

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bulls need to get Chris Bosh in 2010.

Rose, Deng, Bosh…. maybe we still have Hinrich, Gordon, Thomas, and Noah as the next four best players on the team. That sounds like a championship type team… SL: Rose, Hinrich, Deng, TT, Bosh

by Mattchoo on Jul 3, 2008 7:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's a poll you

can take. It’s from the Trib.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/

by sue369 on Jul 3, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unfortunately, it's complicated by the fact of how much it takes to keep them.

I suppose you’re thinking something where it’s only financially feasible to sign one or the other? Because even if I generally have a preference for one, I’m not so high (or low) on either that I wouldn’t prefer the other at a reasonable contract.

If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.

by wjb1492 on Jul 2, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i think

you articulated pretty well how i felt when i read the article.

by Jaina on Jul 2, 2008 10:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Fair tactic != Good tactic!

by Sports2 on Jul 2, 2008 10:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Matt, one thing missed from your post...

...is that about 85%* of the reporters (incl. K.C. Johnson, Chad Ford and others) are simply claiming as fact that Deng turned down either $57.5 mil extension or “well-over $50 million”. Last Summer and most of the winter, it was always worded “reportedly” or “sources say” or what-not, but now it’s simply being reported as:

“Gordon and Deng turned down extensions last year of $50 and $57.5 million, respectively, and will have trouble finding that money again.” I think I remember Chad Ford saying that. I’d like to know why so many are reporting this as fact when we all read Gordon’s take from Arenas’s blog that they were given take-it-or-leave-it, not-very-great offers.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

BG's take from Arenas's blog?

I’d like to see that…

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not exactly as what I remember...

but darn close. Not Arenas’s blog, but…

Ben was like, “I heard if they would have offered him $58 million, he would have took that

So obviously he was offered $57.5. Hah!

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting; thanks.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Read Mike McGraw

I have a feeling he knows what Pax is thinking, and isn’t guessing.

by KT on Jul 2, 2008 10:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Deng and BG

Deng is ideal for any team we can put on the floor, but I want to see if we can get a player like a magettee or another elite win with some size we would be better off since thabo is still there as well. But getting Deng done is a no brainer.

by NamingRightsOnSale on Jul 3, 2008 2:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Reading this report from my phone this morning

had me searching on google’s WAP page to see if the Daily Herald or Sun-Times has a WAP version of their website.

I did recall that the 57.5 offer was to Gordon and the 50 offer was to Deng, but KC has now switched that order.

by NBA Observer on Jul 3, 2008 8:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

And the best part of this story is

Chris Duhon reportedly receiving “starter guarantees” from the Knicks.

by NBA Observer on Jul 3, 2008 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

no, that's defintely incorrect

the report was always Deng getting offered more.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But he checked it on his phone

He must be right because he has access to better technology than most of us

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jul 3, 2008 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and by technology you mean

his throbbing brain

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Geez, are you guys lawyers?

Or just insufferable assholes on the side.

by NBA Observer on Jul 3, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh, I think that answer is obvious.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's a difference?

If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.

by wjb1492 on Jul 3, 2008 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Zing!

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 3, 2008 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The real problem is reference of Kirk and Noce

The problem Pax has is not what he offered last year is what he offered those 2 guys. He can go for less than 7 – that was noce – neither (in Deng’s Case) less than 11 because that is what he offered Kirk. I think that they sould try to go for 8 and 12. Give Gordon 10 mi/season seems too risky but let see what happens

by JustAnotherFan on Jul 3, 2008 9:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Please tell me

That I’m not the only one with John Malkovich as Teddy KGB in “Rounders” saying “Pay the man his money” stuck in my head this morning?

Every day that goes by without word of these contract extensions – or at least word of substantive discussions – just makes me more nervous and depressed that we’re going to take a step backwards this free agency season, after our fortuitous two step-forward Lottery bonanza.

Parental Advisory - Explicit Content

by Jivas on Jul 3, 2008 9:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

You’re not the only one.

Lil' Jon, he always tells the truth.

by upther on Jul 3, 2008 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I knew I had the pop-culture savy

of a young Bill Simmons.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"He beat me. Straight up."

I immediately thought of that scene when I read the title of this entry.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 3, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Right there with you

In fact, in honor of the quote, how about we let Gordon and Deng go heads up 1 on 1 basketball. Winner get the 60 mil contract the other plays for free. Can Deng hang with Gordon when he drives? Can Gordon compete if Deng ever posts on the block? I want to see this happen

by The90sBullsRevival on Jul 3, 2008 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd rather

See them play Hold’em heads-up. Now that would be interesting.

Parental Advisory - Explicit Content

by Jivas on Jul 4, 2008 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kids

Deng and Gordon both tanked last season because they didn’t get what they wanted. Gordon saying he wouldn’t play unless he was 100%. I guess he got that idea from Kobe and Tiger. NOT! As far as I’m concerned they can both leave. I also notice that no one is making a big deal about Rose doing 105 mph in a 65. He is a 19 year old kid. Handing him the keys to this franchise is not going to be the answer.

by Banker on Jul 3, 2008 10:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Mike North has multiple accounts!

Man the hot dog stand.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 3, 2008 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Annoying" needs to be added as an option under "Reason for flagging."

by potato0328 on Jul 3, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm just happy KC Johnson finally joined the site.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

seriously?

by NormVanBeer on Jul 3, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

no.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ouch.

Heh

by Prevenge on Jul 4, 2008 1:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Looking at your last paragraph, you wrote,

"…it’s possible the Bulls believe…that both players are worth more than the 5 years and $50 million they were offered last season."

This, I think is what makes this contract season so interesting for both players. Last year, Paxson came right out and said that the contracts offered to Gordon and Deng were on the low end dollar-wise…but that the added ‘security’ value provided by getting those offers a year early offset the lightness in ‘dollar’ value—with the end result being that the offers were fair.

Now it’s a year later. Based on what Paxson said last year, both players might reasonably expect higher offers now. They took on the added risk of playing without an extension in favor of the perceived trade-off of more dollars this year.

The problem is…the play of each regressed…and they each missed significant playing time due to injuries, especially Deng, who was only healthy enough to play in 77% of the team’s games (Gordon, even with his more publicized "I won’t play until I’m completely healthy" pronouncement, played in 88% of the games).

Matt, if I read you right, you are suggesting Paxson put the same offer back on the table. Actually, all things being equal, based on Paxson’s public explanation, that ‘same’ offer should be a more lucrative offer.

But are all things equal? Implicit in Paxson’s attempt to tie up both players a year early was the expectation that each would improve in his 4th year, that the market for each would improve, and that in order to keep them the Bulls would have to pay more in 2008 than they would have in 20007. Have things worked out that way?

The only way to tell is to let the market dictate. Paxson took a risk in not meeting their asking prices last year—that risk was that the market might be higher this year. The players took a risk in that the ‘security’ represented by taking last years offer really was worth something. Now we find out.

Let the offers come. My guess, with Deng’s and Gordon’s performance leveling off last year, coupled with the league-in-general’s move toward a more frugal stance on contracts, is that similar-or even fewer-dollars will get the deal done for both.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 3, 2008 10:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

it's risky

because if they tell them to find offers, it’s possible some team with no cap room or assets tells either guy they can offer them the moon if there was a sign/trade. So now the player and his agent are squeezing “Drew Diligence” to work something out with a team that has nothing. And yes I’m looking at you, Knicks.

I guess my overall point is that Paxson should definitely not offer them less than last year.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so

you want him to resign them without finding out how much they have to pay to keep them? isn’t that the same thing you complained about last year with Nocioni? I know you view the players differently obviously but how many bad contracts are there because the team didn’t wait and see if anyone would even consider outbidding them.

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Paxson did wait to sign Nocioni

Memphis made overtures about signing Noce to a contract, Pax panicked and signed him to a big deal. It’s not a bad thing if he waits and sees what other teams are offering Deng and Gordon, but he did that last year and ended up giving a crazy contract to a backup.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 3, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

what I meant

is that he didn’t wait for someone to sign an offer sheet and then match if he wanted to He got bluffed by Nocioni’s agent it seems. With RFAs you should never have to panic into any move. If Deng and Gordon sign offer sheets then decide if they’re worth it. If they don’t you have plenty of time to discuss a deal before they’re forced to sign a one year tender. Remember Varejao last year? That was the correct way to handle a RFA in my mind.

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's just an idiotic thing to say.

Varejao missed the entire training camp and preseason, and 21 regular season games.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Handling RFAs

Its good to be patient with RFAs cause they wont go anywhere, but I also think that sometimes its ok to overpay for a guy you really like because 3/4 of the NBA is overpaid. I think giving Deng 60 mil compared to 50 mil is just 2 million a year, and realistically that doesnt hurt us, because we dont even use our full MLE every year like some teams do. So its just a money issue, not a salary cap or team flexibility issue. Oh and how Verajo was handled was horrible.

by NamingRightsOnSale on Jul 3, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's not a perfect 'market'

so it’s not as easy as saying ‘go find an offer’ when there’s no teams with cap money. That doesn’t mean they’re not worth a certain amount, just that the cap rules forbid a bidding war.

I don’t want to buy too much in to the contracts ‘distracting’ Ben and Luol last year, but at the same time I don’t want the team to be actively pissing them off. And their agents off.

Would you rather have them going to visit Philly now like the Joshes of the Hawks?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok..

but they called his bluff and signed him to the cheap deal that he deserved instead of some terrible contract. In the long term of things 21 games really doesn’t mean anything to me at this point and I’d hope that those two have learned from Varejao that holding out isn’t going to get them what they want.

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, darn kids.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

age

has nothing to do with this. Every player in the NBA seems to have an inflated sense of worth. The Bulls have the leverage and I don’t think its crazy to want them to use it.

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Another way of looking at it

is to start with the assertion that Paxson low-balled them last year…which I believe is the case. He couldn’t even get them to sniff at the Bulls offer.

This has given Paxson some wiggle room on this year’s offers.

Matt suggested Paxson offer them at least as much as last year. I think Paxson has it built in that he can offer them more. I think he was expecting to have to offer them more, and the way things have turned out is a major dollar bonus to Paxson.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 3, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he could say both

“hey, I was trying to low-ball you. But you also had a shitty season. Lets call it a wash. Same offer, high fives all around!” and then Duhon comes in with shots, Noah with blunts, and it’s a merry 4th for everyone!

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If it was 50 and 57.5, I think that's how it should be.

A “wash”. They get the same. And I like the idea either you or Scotter put forth of giving them more for shorter contracts, or at least Gordon. I’d give a dollar more per year for each year shorter. 5/50, 4/44, 3/36.

by tyger1147 on Jul 3, 2008 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's my idea!

(I don’t know whose idea it was, but it’s not that uncommon anyway)

but yea, offer shorter deals or an opt-out. This happened a few summers ago with Drew Gooden and Chris Wilcox.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

a dollar more = a million more.

HAH!

by tyger1147 on Jul 3, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No it's not the same

because Nocioni sucks.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and to be more clear

I didn’t care if they lost Nocioni for nothing, nor cared if the organization pissed him off.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so...

you’d rather spare their feelings than sign them to what they’re worth and keep the team in a decent cap situation?

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

'worth' is not as cut and dry

as them getting an offer from another team. Because nearly all the teams are capped out doesn’t mean that they’re worth the mid-level.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ok

but because nearly all teams are capped out doesn’t mean they’re necessarily worth what we offered them last year either. Is it so wrong to say, look we won less games, you were worse statistically and you missed games due to injury. Our offer has gone down. Feel free to go and try to find a better offer from another team. Otherwise come back here.

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

well I won't argue that point any more

than I did so in the initial post.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

fine

but I’m saying I don’t think thats insulting and going to make them so mad that they’ll never want to play for the Bulls again.

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But at the same time....

...if what Alec said about last year, and that Paxson admitted he low-balled them (I don’t remember it but it sounds familiar so whatever), then he thought they were “worth” more last year than what they were offered. So that’s where their worth started and it’s gone down from there. Basically, as Matt, said, a wash.

by tyger1147 on Jul 3, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

furthermore

if Gordon gets a 12 million a year offer from another team that doesn’t mean he’s worth it, just like Nene isnt worth 10 million just because he signed his deal for that.

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My impression is that Paxson made the better dollar bet...BUT,

I think he miscalculated the emotional toll the process would take on his players.

The way it looks now, the only reason to offer the guys similar (or even better) money this year would be in the interest of ‘team harmony’—or some such other nebulous concept, i.e., "Just pay them their money so the can feel good about themselves and hope it translates into better play on the floor."

Perhaps 5 and 50 for each will not have onerous cap consequences. and maybe at that rate, or possibly a little more, Paxson still comes out ahead. But I also think we now have to realize that we might be talking about a couple of not-too-strong-willed guys who don’t function that well under pressure…and rightly make that part of the salary calculation. Tricky business.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 3, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

there's also the incentive to give them money now

so Paxson can go on with trading other people.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anyone else dumbfounded by this comment?

My brain is still throbbing so I’ll ask for a second before calling a vote.

by NBA Observer on Jul 3, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Paxson's comment or mine?

Paxson has said he’s not going into the trade market until he re-signs Deng and Gordon.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

here

Paxson has said re-signing Deng and Gordon—or at least seeing the value of any offer sheet they receive—is a priority so the organization has cost certainty before making its next move.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-080701-john-paxson-deng-gordon-chicago-bulls,1,4054885.story

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Multi-Task?

Pax … doesn’t multi-task! Like most of us of the male gender?
Can you imagine the first woman GM. Deals and excitement often!
Women the true multi-taskers, will change basketball operations, and will spend money quick yet wlll probably have some good success.

by exult463 on Jul 3, 2008 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's oversimplifying the process

Paxson wants a cost certainty so he’ll know how much salary and how many years he’s able to take back in eventual trades. Especially if the Bulls are treating the Luxury Tax threshold as a hard stop, it’s wise for Paxson to wait to settle Deng and Gordon first.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jul 3, 2008 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he's just trying to get on board

with the “insufferable” part of his above question…which would make the answer to the question currently on the table, “mine.”

How’s that NBAO? Lawerly enough for you? ;)

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 3, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pax! Pax!

Where’s that darn proofreader when you need him?

“Lawyerly.”

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 3, 2008 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pax

has to reserve cap space until the deals get done. So until then his hands are tied

by hlac on Jul 3, 2008 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Get rid of Nocioni and Hinrich.

That’s really the solution. Then they’re down to two bad contracts (Hughes’ isn’t bad due to its length), and any contending team has a few bad contracts. As Thomas and Sefo come up for extensions, Hughes will be coming off the books. As Noah and Rose come up for extensions, BG and Deng will be in the second-half of their contracts and definitely more tradeable.

by tyger1147 on Jul 3, 2008 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

San Antoino

does a good job handling cap space. IF Gordon and Deng were on the Spurs, I can’t believe either one would get more than $8 million-AT THE MOST.

by hlac on Jul 3, 2008 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wait, so you give them more money?? What market do these players have, this year or next (a year before 2010)? I think Deng is a nice player, bu definitely not a superstar. I say offer the same or lowball them with the security of more years. This is business, not some charity.

by Jbonelli on Jul 3, 2008 12:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry, but this is more of a question.

Have any teams issued any offers to Ben or Luol? I’ve been trying to find that information to no avail. But I don’t think that other teams would view either of them as players to ‘put them over the top.’ Another piece, yes. But a $12mil worth piece, no.

I’m interested to see what Ellis from GS gets offered because I see BG as a cross between him and Jason Terry. And I think Terry is over-paid, but for now, that magical $10mil figure for BG seems fair.

There really isn’t an individual to compare Luol to. For the money 20 footer he can hit, he needs to do a better job of creating his own shot to become elite. He hasn’t shown that yet. And for those people that said before he could develop into a 4, I just don’t see him adding enough bulk to effectively defend the post. He also doesn’t have that ‘wow’ factor that sells tickets like an Iggy. Anything $12 mil sounds like over-paying for a home-grown product similar to the Noc and Kirk deals.

The Bulls have all the leverage right now in both cases. And while I wouldn’t low-ball the players, neither of these guys are max money type of players. I do like them both, and believe they are much more valuable than Kirk and Noc, but I don’t see a lot of room for the Bulls to make much better offers. If they do increase their numbers, they’re screwing themselves money-wise.

by kingj41 on Jul 3, 2008 3:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

No offers have been made to either

I haven’t even seen any indication that another team has contacted either one, though that probably doesn’t mean anything.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jul 3, 2008 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

waiting for Reinsdorf approval?

by exult463 on Jul 3, 2008 4:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

In semi-defense of KC

He has to work with Bulls management. He may not completely believe everything he writes, but if he sides with players too much, I suspect his access would be curtailed. You’ll notice it’s the columnists that do the bulk of the criticism when it comes to the Bulls and the beat writers tend to be a little softer on warts when looked at over the course of a season. Beat writers have to deal with the press office every day.

by ziffle on Jul 3, 2008 4:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

You missed the point. K.C. would say t's not hs place to interject

his opinion into beat reports, yet he doesn’t constantly. Which would be fine if his opinions weren’t always one sided and often ridiculous.

by Scotter on Jul 3, 2008 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Should either Deng or Gordon get $10M per year?

Let’s look at Deng first. Josh Howard gets 9.5M per year. Question: is Deng better than Howard? If no, then Deng should not get more than 9.5M per year. Is Howard better than Deng? If yes then Deng should get less than 9.5M. There is only one right answer. Caron Butler gets 8.3M per year. Question: is Deng better than Butler? If no then Deng should not get more than 8.3M per year. Is Butler better than Deng? If yes then Deng should get less than 8.3M. There is only one right answer to this. Yet Deng is 5 years younger; that must count for something. But how good can he become? I think he can get better at 3 pt shooting, but it is unlikely that someone with such a terrible touch around the basket could develop a successful low-post game. These are things to consider (and there are other minor issues), but it does not look like Deng should get any more than 8M per year.
Let’s look at Gordon. Billups, Hamilton, and Tony Parker each make 10M per year. Is Gordon as good as any of these players? All of them have at least one ring and two of them were Finals MVPs. So the answer is no; thus Gordon should make less than 10M. Manu Ginobli makes 9M per year. Is Gordon as good as Ginobli? No. Gordon should make around 8.5M per year. Why does he get more than Deng? Because Gordon is the only one on the team with the power to take over a game. 17M for the two best players (not all-stars) on a team that has only once made it out of the first round of the playoffs. This is just common sense.

by TheMoon on Jul 7, 2008 1:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I have used the same players for comparison earlier and this clearly shows what kind of money BG and Deng SHOULD be making…

But then there are crazy/stupid managers/owners out there that give players like Rashard Lewis (126 mil) and Gilbert Arenas (111, 127 mil offer.!! Not too strange that these occurrences make other players delusional as well regarding their own worth.

My gut feeling is that both players will be QO’ed. Teams are prob not going to want to offer them contracts because they will either be overpaying or the contracts will be matched by the Bulls.

If Paxon is smart he doesn’t offer them more than contracts in the range you mention or QO them. Guess it all comes down to how delusional the players are…

by BAB-Bass on Jul 7, 2008 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No way both players get the QO

The Bulls are essentially renting them, and both of them can walk away at the end of next season. That’s horribly shortsighted, and could leave the team with nothing after committing so much to them over the past 4 years.

Deng is definitely getting an extension, and if Gordon is to be moved, they are going to sign and trade him somewhere.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 7, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jesus! This was supposed to go here!! Gah!!

by BAB-Bass on Jul 7, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I really can't claim

to know what’s going on inside Paxdorfs head so I imagine this is very possible also.

It all comes down to how much PD is willing to give up and how much Deng feels he deserves. Personally i think this should be something like 7-9 mil per year at this point. (With the bad season he just had, the uncertainty with the injuries and his tendency to disappear in the fourth)

What do you feel he is worth? What do you think pax is prepared to offer?

by BAB-Bass on Jul 7, 2008 1:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

To both questions

It doesn’t matter what Deng thinks, he’s going to want more money no matter what.

Paxson is probably hoping he can lock Deng for 5/50 million, and I’d be quite satisfied with that contract. I hope to God he doesn’t touch Josh Smith or Iguodola money, which looks like it could be a lot with several teams with cap space lurking out there.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 7, 2008 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs