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Pay the men their money

It'll be happening more and more in a post-Sam Tribune, but I've yet to get over the annoying twinge I feel when KC "who will be shopped" Johnson sneaks his opinions into a report.

Deng and Gordon remain supremely confident players, and declining last year's lucrative offers was their right as restricted free agents. But what their decisions also did was signal a shift from the selfless play that had defined the previous three playoff teams to more individual agendas.

[From KC's ass to your ears. (or something.)]

Beyond the awful leap in logic (honestly, this whole post could be a rant over what he's saying), there's a semantic, yet important, error in that paragraph. Deng and Gordon weren't restricted free agents when they turned down the extensions. They were a year away from restricted free agency (i.e., now).

And that is why, when the extensions were offered, it was under the premise that each deal may not be up to perceived market value, but that was because they weren't on the market. They were still contractually under team control whether they signed extensions or not. Signing the extension would be forfeiting their ability to be on that market, in exchange for long-term security.

(It's also why the Bulls didn't really 'negotiate' with Luol or Ben at that time. They didn't have to, and while the players may not have thought so, I thought that tactic was fair. )

Especially after (but not limited to) the relatively poor season they both had, it's been instead framed (apologies to KC, reading John Jackson is a far worse alternative to your work) that at the time, these extensions were a complete gift on the organization's part, and that both players have since proven to not be worth that initial offer based on a bad year.

But that offer was made with the acknowledgement that it wasn't completely market-based. So it's not a given that the Bulls should offer less, the bad season is just one factor thrown in with the others that have changed from 12 months ago: the players being a year older, the ability to offer 6 years instead of 5, the qualifying offer, the new direction of the team, and the market. Not just the teams with cap room, but anybody with a desire to pay can start the mechanizations of  possible sign/trades through agents and their suddenly-disgruntled clients.

What happened last season shouldn't be absolved, but it shouldn't close the book on anything either. I believe, and it's possible that the Bulls believe as well, that both players are worth more than the 5 years and $50m they were offered last season. I wouldn't say too much more (judging by Paxson's pace, there will be plenty of time to get into that), but I'd rather the Bulls be called 'dumb' for coming back with a comparable offer than everyone laughing at the 'dumb' Ben and Luol for turning down the money preseason. While they're playing for another team.

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This kind of talk makes me want to kick KC in the head

The players are selfish for wanting to secure long term committment from their employers? Yeah, selfish assholes! Does Tim Duncan play for free? What kind of logic is this?

No one said the Bulls had to break the bank for Ben and Lou. You pay them a fair market value, which after last season may not be as high as previously thought. That doesn’t mean you can be cheap bastards and act like the Bulls are a hotshot organization that can just be so obtuse to their players.

I hope Paxson isn’t this dense when it comes to contract negotiations. Get these deals over with soon, there is still a lot of questions that have to be answered about this roster.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 2, 2008 9:54 PM CDT   0 recs

I don't think Paxson is

it’d be especially disappointing if he changed his tune now after the Hinrich and Nocioni extensions.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 2, 2008 9:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

But isnt selfish players and cheap ass owners the way that sports works

If you were a player and your career is very limited dont you grab for every last dollar, use every piece of leverage you have to get that dollar? Also, if you own a team dont you want to pay the players as little as they accept to keep your profits high and to have extra cash to go after other players?

As much as people think KC is a hack, he does raise good points, that is what does Paxson do to sign these players to a contract which does not damage the team’s future and not alienate the player. Im not a huge fan of KC but compared to J. Jackson and Mariotti I cant hate on him either.

A point that should have been brought up is, what is “fair market value” for these players? Is Gordon worth more than Deng or vice versa? should you pay Deng more than a Josh Howard or Correy Maggette? Two players that somewhat compare to Deng. Who does Gordon compare to, and what was that player paid? and so on

by wojcmic1 on Jul 2, 2008 10:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The thing that thing that stinks about both of these guys, especially Deng...

...is that they’re both still young. Gordon might not improve too much, but he’s a damn hard worker. And Deng is young enough that it can’t be ruled out that he won’t learn to shoot a 3 at a decent clip this summer and in 3-4 years add a light post move.

Do you pay Deng because he’s sort of like a 6 years older Josh Howard? Or do you pay him for what he might do? It’s such a tough situation.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

As far as ceilings go, I think Deng is still way below his

as compared to BG. I hope Deng is around for at least a few more years so we can see if he’s going to be capable of shooting the 3 consistently, as well as posting up his man with semi-regularity.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Who does Gordon compare to?

Well, how about Piatkowski and Barry? I’ll bet they make a whole lot less than $6.4 million.

by hlac on Jul 2, 2008 11:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

lol. piatkowski and barry?

gordon compares to j. Terry from the mavericks he’s making around 9.5 next year check hoopshype

by Blacknight23 on Jul 3, 2008 8:26 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah

Paxson really should just offer up the same amount as last year, and tell them that this time, it’s respectable.

by Option27 on Jul 2, 2008 9:56 PM CDT   0 recs

I agree.

Offer them the same deals and if they don’t want them, well GTFO of town then.

I’m much more concerned about Deng than Gordon, though. As long as he’s extended, I’ll be fairly pleased. Gordon would be a bonus.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm the opposite.

While Deng i the better all-around player, I’d feel more confident replacing his production and abilities w/ Thabo + Nocioni than replacing Gordon’s w/ Hinrich + Thabo. (this is long-term, I’m thinking, not this year and not really next either) It would be awesome if one of those smart people (like yfBB, hscs or Scotter) could give a statistical guess to those differing contributions.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:17 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, I'm not a stat guy at all.

Best case we keep both, but I’d like to see what the poll results would be if the question were:

If you could only keep one player, which would you keep? BG or Deng?

I’m guessing Deng would probably win, but mostly due to the Hinrich love around here.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, as if it needed to be told, I couldn't really care who the 'poll' winner would be.

It’s not that I don’t respect others’ opinions, just that it’s a select few. And I almost always disagree w/ the masses on sports blog. Doesn’t mean I’m right, just that I typically disagree.

And I agree, keeping both would be my preference, too.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I forgot to include the disclaimer

of: “Not that this poll would mean anything,” but I think it would be semi-fascinating just to get a handle on what everyone else around here thinks. Not that it would affect my opinion in the least.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It would be interesting.

There is a lot of anti-Gordon around here, but there are a lot of people that have concluded that Deng isn’t a winner who shrinks in the 4th quarter. It’d be interesting.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Personally I feel it's tough

to classify a guy as a choke artist in the NBA when he’s only 23 and is still new to those types of situations at this high of a level. Maybe that’s just me, though. And really, that’s a whole other topic that doesn’t need to be beaten to the ground any more than it already has.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And no one ever annointed Deng as "team leader"

The Bulls never had anyone to put the weight of a loss on. Everyone just attached it to Deng because he seemingly has the most potential. I give him a lot of flak, but being a choke artist is not something I would attribute to him.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 2, 2008 10:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

To me, Deng's ceiling is 3rd banna on a championship team.

What that means to the Bulls right now? I’d say it means you sign him to an extension at all costs and then hope in 2010 you get a superstar and Rose can be the ideal second fiddle, with all of the rest of the pieces hopefully falling into place. How’s that for concise thinking!

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

even more concise

Rose is the superstar, Thomas is 2nd fiddle :)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 2, 2008 10:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That's what's exciting about this.

And why it is so unfortunate that they haven’t worked w/ Thomas more.

If Rose is the superstar, and Thomas becomes that second-guy w/ Deng your third-best player, having 20+ ppg Ben Gordon and all-around talent Joakim Noah fighting it out as the 4th best player is pretty exciting.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i dunno about you

but I’d like at least one of our top three guys to be able to shoot a three pointer.

by JSlakov on Jul 2, 2008 11:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

exactly

I’m glad somebody mentioned it. If Deng is a 3rd option, Tyrus might at best become a 3rd option, also.

If we envision Rose as a 1st option, where will the real 2nd option arise that can hit an outside shot (or 3pt)

by exult463 on Jul 2, 2008 11:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hitting 3s s what role players are for.

But, Deng and Rose will likely both get to a point where whey can make a 3. Deng had no trouble making the ones he took this year.

by Scotter on Jul 2, 2008 11:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Hinrich could turn into a superstar ROLE player.

If that makes anysense? HInrich as a 5th or 6th best player on a team is amazing. He’s been the Bulls 2nd or 3rd since he’s been on the team.

by Mattchoo on Jul 3, 2008 7:21 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, when your fourth-best player

...is one of the best distance shooters in the history of the game, I think you’re doing alright.

by tyger1147 on Jul 3, 2008 3:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That would be all kinds of awesome.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't want Rose to be 2nd fiddle

I want Rose to be destroyer of worlds, collector of souls. That’s his potential.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 2, 2008 10:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If your potential is that of being...

...”the most athletic ever at his position” (as Matt said he read), damn right that’s his potential.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

When Farmar can handle the ball like Rose...

...and be the same size as Rose (you know, 25 pounds heavier), maybe he will. Until then, why not quit making up opportunities to bash Rose.

And, of course, there’s always the caveat I put in there of “potential”, ya know.

by tyger1147 on Jul 3, 2008 4:04 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

well

athleticism is pretty much something you have or don’t. Yes you can hit the gym and get the best out of your body but there are limits. Obviously I was using Farmar because most people wouldnt think of him as the most athletic PG yet he outdid Rose at the combine. Its a little early to be saying Rose has that potential. Its like saying Beasley has the potential to be the best scorer ever. Sure, his college stats were historic but whats the point of setting the bar that high.

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 4:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You know there's a difference

between testing and actually using athleticism on the basketball court. There’s no need to bring in disingenuous examples like Farmer.

by Scotter on Jul 3, 2008 5:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Of course he knows that.

He also knows being 25 pounds heavier and having close to the same numbers in the combine makes for an argument as a “better athlete” in a basketball sense.

by tyger1147 on Jul 4, 2008 12:11 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So do I...it's just it will probably take longer than 2-3 seasons

until he’s destroying souls nightly :)

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Bulls need to get Chris Bosh in 2010.

Rose, Deng, Bosh…. maybe we still have Hinrich, Gordon, Thomas, and Noah as the next four best players on the team. That sounds like a championship type team… SL: Rose, Hinrich, Deng, TT, Bosh

by Mattchoo on Jul 3, 2008 7:19 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Unfortunately, it's complicated by the fact of how much it takes to keep them.

I suppose you’re thinking something where it’s only financially feasible to sign one or the other? Because even if I generally have a preference for one, I’m not so high (or low) on either that I wouldn’t prefer the other at a reasonable contract.

If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.

by wjb1492 on Jul 2, 2008 10:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i think

you articulated pretty well how i felt when i read the article.

by Jaina on Jul 2, 2008 10:17 PM CDT   0 recs

Matt, one thing missed from your post...

...is that about 85%* of the reporters (incl. K.C. Johnson, Chad Ford and others) are simply claiming as fact that Deng turned down either $57.5 mil extension or “well-over $50 million”. Last Summer and most of the winter, it was always worded “reportedly” or “sources say” or what-not, but now it’s simply being reported as:

“Gordon and Deng turned down extensions last year of $50 and $57.5 million, respectively, and will have trouble finding that money again.” I think I remember Chad Ford saying that. I’d like to know why so many are reporting this as fact when we all read Gordon’s take from Arenas’s blog that they were given take-it-or-leave-it, not-very-great offers.

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:23 PM CDT   0 recs

BG's take from Arenas's blog?

I’d like to see that…

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Not exactly as what I remember...

but darn close. Not Arenas’s blog, but…

Ben was like, “I heard if they would have offered him $58 million, he would have took that

So obviously he was offered $57.5. Hah!

by tyger1147 on Jul 2, 2008 10:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Interesting; thanks.

When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer

by Illini15 on Jul 2, 2008 10:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Read Mike McGraw

I have a feeling he knows what Pax is thinking, and isn’t guessing.

by KT on Jul 2, 2008 10:53 PM CDT   0 recs

Deng and BG

Deng is ideal for any team we can put on the floor, but I want to see if we can get a player like a magettee or another elite win with some size we would be better off since thabo is still there as well. But getting Deng done is a no brainer.

by NamingRightsOnSale on Jul 3, 2008 2:33 AM CDT   0 recs

Reading this report from my phone this morning

had me searching on google’s WAP page to see if the Daily Herald or Sun-Times has a WAP version of their website.

I did recall that the 57.5 offer was to Gordon and the 50 offer was to Deng, but KC has now switched that order.

by NBA Observer on Jul 3, 2008 8:06 AM CDT   0 recs

And the best part of this story is

Chris Duhon reportedly receiving “starter guarantees” from the Knicks.

by NBA Observer on Jul 3, 2008 8:10 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

no, that's defintely incorrect

the report was always Deng getting offered more.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 8:28 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

But he checked it on his phone

He must be right because he has access to better technology than most of us

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jul 3, 2008 9:08 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

and by technology you mean

his throbbing brain

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 9:49 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Geez, are you guys lawyers?

Or just insufferable assholes on the side.

by NBA Observer on Jul 3, 2008 11:16 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

oh, I think that answer is obvious.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 12:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

There's a difference?

If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.

by wjb1492 on Jul 3, 2008 5:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The real problem is reference of Kirk and Noce

The problem Pax has is not what he offered last year is what he offered those 2 guys. He can go for less than 7 – that was noce – neither (in Deng’s Case) less than 11 because that is what he offered Kirk. I think that they sould try to go for 8 and 12. Give Gordon 10 mi/season seems too risky but let see what happens

by JustAnotherFan on Jul 3, 2008 9:20 AM CDT   0 recs

Please tell me

That I’m not the only one with John Malkovich as Teddy KGB in “Rounders” saying “Pay the man his money” stuck in my head this morning?

Every day that goes by without word of these contract extensions – or at least word of substantive discussions – just makes me more nervous and depressed that we’re going to take a step backwards this free agency season, after our fortuitous two step-forward Lottery bonanza.

Parental Advisory - Explicit Content

by Jivas on Jul 3, 2008 9:39 AM CDT   0 recs

You’re not the only one.

Lil' Jon, he always tells the truth.

by upther on Jul 3, 2008 9:47 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I knew I had the pop-culture savy

of a young Bill Simmons.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 9:49 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

"He beat me. Straight up."

I immediately thought of that scene when I read the title of this entry.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 3, 2008 10:50 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Right there with you

In fact, in honor of the quote, how about we let Gordon and Deng go heads up 1 on 1 basketball. Winner get the 60 mil contract the other plays for free. Can Deng hang with Gordon when he drives? Can Gordon compete if Deng ever posts on the block? I want to see this happen

by The90sBullsRevival on Jul 3, 2008 6:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd rather

See them play Hold’em heads-up. Now that would be interesting.

Parental Advisory - Explicit Content

by Jivas on Jul 4, 2008 4:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Kids

Deng and Gordon both tanked last season because they didn’t get what they wanted. Gordon saying he wouldn’t play unless he was 100%. I guess he got that idea from Kobe and Tiger. NOT! As far as I’m concerned they can both leave. I also notice that no one is making a big deal about Rose doing 105 mph in a 65. He is a 19 year old kid. Handing him the keys to this franchise is not going to be the answer.

by Banker on Jul 3, 2008 10:03 AM CDT   0 recs

I'm just happy KC Johnson finally joined the site.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 11:04 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

no.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 12:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Looking at your last paragraph, you wrote,

"…it’s possible the Bulls believe…that both players are worth more than the 5 years and $50 million they were offered last season."

This, I think is what makes this contract season so interesting for both players. Last year, Paxson came right out and said that the contracts offered to Gordon and Deng were on the low end dollar-wise…but that the added ‘security’ value provided by getting those offers a year early offset the lightness in ‘dollar’ value—with the end result being that the offers were fair.

Now it’s a year later. Based on what Paxson said last year, both players might reasonably expect higher offers now. They took on the added risk of playing without an extension in favor of the perceived trade-off of more dollars this year.

The problem is…the play of each regressed…and they each missed significant playing time due to injuries, especially Deng, who was only healthy enough to play in 77% of the team’s games (Gordon, even with his more publicized "I won’t play until I’m completely healthy" pronouncement, played in 88% of the games).

Matt, if I read you right, you are suggesting Paxson put the same offer back on the table. Actually, all things being equal, based on Paxson’s public explanation, that ‘same’ offer should be a more lucrative offer.

But are all things equal? Implicit in Paxson’s attempt to tie up both players a year early was the expectation that each would improve in his 4th year, that the market for each would improve, and that in order to keep them the Bulls would have to pay more in 2008 than they would have in 20007. Have things worked out that way?

The only way to tell is to let the market dictate. Paxson took a risk in not meeting their asking prices last year—that risk was that the market might be higher this year. The players took a risk in that the ‘security’ represented by taking last years offer really was worth something. Now we find out.

Let the offers come. My guess, with Deng’s and Gordon’s performance leveling off last year, coupled with the league-in-general’s move toward a more frugal stance on contracts, is that similar-or even fewer-dollars will get the deal done for both.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jul 3, 2008 10:55 AM CDT   0 recs

it's risky

because if they tell them to find offers, it’s possible some team with no cap room or assets tells either guy they can offer them the moon if there was a sign/trade. So now the player and his agent are squeezing “Drew Diligence” to work something out with a team that has nothing. And yes I’m looking at you, Knicks.

I guess my overall point is that Paxson should definitely not offer them less than last year.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 3, 2008 10:58 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

so

you want him to resign them without finding out how much they have to pay to keep them? isn’t that the same thing you complained about last year with Nocioni? I know you view the players differently obviously but how many bad contracts are there because the team didn’t wait and see if anyone would even consider outbidding them.

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 11:20 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Paxson did wait to sign Nocioni

Memphis made overtures about signing Noce to a contract, Pax panicked and signed him to a big deal. It’s not a bad thing if he waits and sees what other teams are offering Deng and Gordon, but he did that last year and ended up giving a crazy contract to a backup.

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 3, 2008 11:25 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

what I meant

is that he didn’t wait for someone to sign an offer sheet and then match if he wanted to He got bluffed by Nocioni’s agent it seems. With RFAs you should never have to panic into any move. If Deng and Gordon sign offer sheets then decide if they’re worth it. If they don’t you have plenty of time to discuss a deal before they’re forced to sign a one year tender. Remember Varejao last year? That was the correct way to handle a RFA in my mind.

by JSlakov on Jul 3, 2008 11:29 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs