Tyrus Thomas, Shawn Kemp, and the Future
After the 2006/2007 season, I sat down with the Basketball-Reference player season finder to look for players that had similar rookie seasons to Tyrus Thomas in order to understand how he might develop. Only one other player of any age had such an extreme rookie season in terms of both good things like blocks, steals, rebounds, freethrow attempts, and bad things like turnovers and personnel fouls with at least 800 minutes played. That other player was Shawn Kemp. Kemp was also the most similar player to Tyrus according to John Hollinger's similarity score system, he'd have to be given how rare their combination of statistics and attributes were. That they both entered the league as raw super athletic 20 year old PFs made the comparison only more intriguing. I discussed this similarity a year ago in a review of Tyrus's rookie season, and thought it was time to reflect on Tyrus's season and check back in with the Kemp comparison. I had hoped to see Tyrus get something close to the 30 minutes per game and 66 starts that Kemp received in his 2nd season. Seattle made the decision to trade Xavier McDaniel 15 games into Kemp's 2nd season to open up playing time for him. The Bulls management failed to make a similar decision. I was against the Joe Smith signing simply because it was an easy excuse for Skiles to not play Tyrus, and unfortunately my fears were realized and and Tyrus only received 27 starts and played 1100 fewer minutes than Kemp did in his 2nd season.
Kemp and Thomas
I still think Thomas is capable of having a similar impact to Kemp. They're similar players, not exact copies of each other. And it's probably important to highlight the differences now, especially for the sake of Tyrus doubters. As this biography piece with some great links details, Shawn Kemp was a McDonald's All-American and was recruited by the power house schools including home state Indiana. Kemp had his big growth spurt during his 1st three years of HS and was done growing after his junior year, and played the post in HS. Kemp accepted a scholarship to Kentucky, but failed to score high enough on his SATs to play as a freshman. At Kentucky he was put on probation for pawning necklaces belong to Sean Sutton a teammate and coach Eddie Sutton's son. According to Kemp he pawned them as a favor for a fellow teammate, but refused to finger that player since he was leaving school anyway. After transferring to a community college, Kemp declared for the NBA without playing any college ball. The story was different for Tyrus according to Draft Express.
In high school, Thomas was only 5-11 as a freshman. He only played organized basketball in his junior and senior years and never really built up enough recruiting hype to be considered a top 100 prospect. As a junior he was a mere 6-6 and 190 pounds, and when he officially committed to LSU they did not initially even have a scholarship for him. One later opened up when a JUCO recruit was kicked off his team and his scholarship offer was rescinded. Thomas grew to 6-7 ½, 200 pounds as a high school senior, and averaged 16 points, 12 rebounds and six blocks per game, good enough only for the all-second team in Louisiana. He was forced to redshirt his freshman year at LSU after injuring his neck, and grew to 6-9, 215 pounds over that year.
Tyrus was clearly more of a late bloomer than Kemp. Kemp was 6'8.75" barefoot when he was drafted and Tyrus was 6'7.25", although it seems likely that Tyrus has made up some of that gap.
But, I obviously don't expect Tyrus to become a 256 lb. PF/C like Kemp. I don't expect Tyrus to ever play with the power that Kemp did. Statistically, I don't expect Tyrus to score as much as Kemp did or as efficiently. Tyrus won't be the offensive rebounding force that Kemp was. I do believe that Tyrus has a chance to make up for some of that the offensive gap on the defensive end. Tyrus has more natural defensive instincts, superior timing as a shot blocker, and a better feel for playing the passing lanes. He's also a better passer offensively. I believe in the end Tyrus has a chance to have a similar overall impact to Kemp, but the bigger point that I'm making is that Tyrus will likely continue to develop similarly to Kemp. Kemp provides an entry point for discussing Tyrus present and future.
I was drawn to this comparison because of statistics. But, it became clear after doing research that the similarities extend beyond the statistics and their games to their personalities both on and off the court. On the court there is the emotional demonstrative style of play. Sam Smith has often compared Tyrus to Kemp. And a lot of what Sam wrote and said about Tyrus shows up in Kemp as well. Players that didn't trust easily, that didn't interact well with the media, and that seemed to have a sense of entitlement to go with some clear immaturity, but also someone that teammates would defend. A player that interacts incredibly well with children.
Starting with his Seattle Sonics tenure in 1989, Shawn dressed like Santa and gave out food and toys to children of the poor. Crowds of adoring kids came out to see Santa Kemp; he returned their affection with a priceless gift. Shawn took these kids seriously; he helped them, he joked with them, he even played ball with them.
As I read quotes from a young Kemp, it struck me how easily I could envision Tyrus saying similar things. And the descriptions of behavior fit as well. There's clearly a similarity in personality as well as ability.
Comparing Their Games
There are some similarities in there games as well. Probably the biggest similarity is that they both want to grab the rebound and dribble up the court themselves and make something happen with the ball. When I put in game tape of the 96' finals to refresh my memories of Kemp for this post, I was surprised how many times Kemp would grab the rebound and push the ball himself. And just like Tyrus, he would always want to dribble at least once before passing the ball to a guard after a rebound. Any of the Kemp highlight clips will show him taking the ball coast to coast. Both have been effective doing it even though it drives coaches and Johnny Red crazy because it always has the potential to end ugly. They share a fondness for spin moves. Kemp also had a Tyrus like tendency to not run the floor hard and would be the last one up the court on offense. Kemp like Tyrus so far always struggled with mistakes, especially turnovers and fouls. The fouls prevented him from ever playing 34+ minutes per game in his prime. Kemp didn't need a lot of moves to be effective. He didn't do much with his left hand inside. He pretty much would turn over his left shoulder and jump over his defender in the post and shoot with his right hand or dunk it if he could. And he would face up around the FT line and either take the open jumper, pull up of the dribble for a very short jumper, or get all the way to the basket or to the FT line. Tyrus has shown potential with his jumpshot and right handed jump hook. He has the ability to master those simple things enough to eventually average an efficient 15-17 points per game. He could average 15 points on just his current shot attempts if he had a 50% FG and played 35 min/g.
The Statistical Comparison
If you look at their rookie seasons, you can see the unique similarities and the key differences statistically. The same defensive rebound rate and the same extremely high foul rate. Both had high rates of steal and blocks with Tyrus out performing Kemp in those areas. And then Kemp slightly out performing Tyrus all offensive areas, in TS%, in offensive rebound rate, and in turnover rate with a slightly higher usage rate. Given there similarities, I thought it was likely that Tyrus would improve in the same ways that Kemp did in his 2nd season. When I began to do my research, I expected that Tyrus's lack of playing time and poor FG% had killed the comparison between the players. However when I looked at their 2nd seasons, I found that their rate statistics changed from year one to year two similarly in nearly every category.
| Player | Age | MP | PER | TS% | eFG% | ORB% | DRB% | TRB% | AST% | STL% | BLK% | TOV% | Usg% | ORtg | DRtg | PF |
| Shawn Kemp | 20 | 1120 | 15.9 | 53.1 | 0.481 | 14.7 | 21.8 | 18.1 | 3.4 | 2.1 | 4.0 | 17.8 | 22.4 | 103 | 105 | 6.6 |
| Tyrus Thomas | 20 | 966 | 14.8 | 52.1 | 0.475 | 10.6 | 21.1 | 15.9 | 6.6 | 2.4 | 6.2 | 20.8 | 20.9 | 95 | 93 | 6 |
| Player | Age | MP | PER | TS% | eFG% | ORB% | DRB% | TRB% | AST% | STL% | BLK% | TOV% | Usg% | ORtg | DRtg | PF |
| Shawn Kemp | 21 | 2442 | 17.6 | 55.1 | 0.509 | 12.9 | 20.5 | 16.6 | 8.5 | 1.6 | 3.3 | 15.5 | 22.4 | 109 | 106 | 4.7 |
| Tyrus Thomas | 21 | 1330 | 14.6 | 48.6 | 0.424 | 8.4 | 21.1 | 14.5 | 11.0 | 1.9 | 4.2 | 13.0 | 19.7 | 101 | 103 | 4.6 |
Look at the similar changes across the board. Their ORB% rates both declined by about 2%. Their DRB% both stayed about the same. Their AST% both went up about 5%. Their STL% and BLK% both declined. Their TO% rates declined with a huge decline for Tyrus, which is probably an indication that Tyrus was too passive offensively last season. And their USG% stayed about the same with both producing six more points per 100 possessions than they did the year before even with Tyrus's decline in FG%. And finally their PF/36 min decreased significantly. That's similar changes in nearly every category, except for FG%. So the similarity between the two players held together pretty well. Now that Kemp's 1st NBA coach, Bernie Bickerstaff, has joined the Bulls coaching staff, I'd be interested in his thoughts on this comparison.
Now let's address the elephant in the room, Tyrus's FG% last season. Tyrus FG% decline wasn't quite the disaster that it looks like. Almost all of Tyrus's decline in FG% is due to decreased dunk opportunities. He had 82 dunks as a rookie and only 58 last season, while playing more than an additional 350 minutes. Dunks made up 29% of his FGA as a rookie, but only 14% of his FGA last season. A decline in dunk% should have been expected, but not one of this magnitude. For one thing the lobs to Thomas for easy dunks pretty much disappeared last season. In a decent offense around 20% of Tyrus's FGA should be dunks. I should also note that Kemp was playing on a team with a top ten offense. His FG% on non-dunk inside shots didn't improve from 33%, but he took fewer assisted shots (58% to 44%). That implies that in order for him to maintain the same FG%, he had to improve his skills some. The average FG% on assisted close shots has been found to be 12% higher than unassisted close shots, this would be especially true in Tyrus's case. And he did improve very specific skills. His right handed jump hook from the right block was particularly consistent, probably because it was his one move post move in college. He made shots around the basket that he wouldn't of made as a rookie. But, obviously his biggest improvement was as a jump shooter. As has been said before, he went from making 20% of his jump shots to making 35% of his jump shots. I think the hotzones charts show this even better. Rookie year and 2nd year. He was particularly consistent all year from the 3 zones at the top of the key where he shot 43%, the same % as Joe Smith last season. So his significant drop in FG% wasn't a failure to improve. If the % of his FGA that were dunk attempts fell from 29% to just 22%, instead of 14% then Tyrus would have had a similar FG% to his rookie season, despite taking 40% more jump shots. If the team is better offensively as expected and his FG% doesn't return to at least close to his rookie year 47.5% next season then I'll start to be be worried.
This is a big year for Thomas, especially if the team finally commits to letting him play through some mistakes and gives him a consistent 26+ min/g. Many NBA players really improve in their 3rd year. Despite the clear flaws in his game, Thomas has still managed to be an effective player as is. He managed to post consecutive 14 PERs, despite his TOs as a rookie and his FG% as a 2nd year player. He had the 2nd best adjusted and unadjusted plus minus on the team. He had the 3rd best Roland rating last season, and was 4th as a rookie. On offense with Tyrus on the court has been just as good as when he's off the court, and the team has been significantly better on defense in both of Tyrus's seasons with him on the court. It may not be pretty, but he gets the job done right now as is. Consider what he can do offensively as his shot improves, he develops consistency with his post moves, and he's actually put in positions to succeed offensively.
If we stay with Kemp as a developmental model then there are few things to look for. Some of the key trends in Kemp's development were rises in ORB%, STL%, and BLK% from the 2nd to the 3rd year. A slight increase in USG% and a big jump in DRB%, which is probably an indicator of gaining strength and bulk. With TO% and the fouling rate holding steady. Kemp also broke the 20 PER barrier. Given the limited minutes he played last season I'm not incredibly confident that we'll see the same improvements in Tyrus's statistics next season and at this point I'll believe Tyrus is going to get consistent minutes when I finally see it, but I wouldn't be surprised to see significant improvement. And if it happens it's likely to be in the same areas as Kemp, along with at least a restoration of Tyrus's FG%.
Josh Smith Enters the Picture
After Tyrus's 2nd season it's worth talking about a 2nd comparison. Tyrus often gets compared to Josh Smith because of their very similar size and athletic ability. That comparison didn't make much sense based on Tyrus's rookie season. Tyrus was a much better rebounder, and had a much higher rate of steals, turnovers, and fouls. After Tyrus's 2nd season, Smith at least enters the picture. Here's Josh Smith's statistics.
| Season | Age | MP | PER | TS% | eFG% | ORB% | DRB% | TRB% | AST% | STL% | BLK% | TOV% | Usg% | ORtg | DRtg | PF |
| 2004-05 | 19 | 2050 | 15.4 | 50.6 | 45.8 | 7.9 | 18.6 | 13.0 | 10.2 | 1.5 | 5.4 | 16.0 | 18.4 | 100 | 107 | 2.8 |
| 2005-06 | 20 | 2559 | 15.5 | 50.0 | 44.7 | 8.0 | 17.2 | 12.5 | 12.2 | 1.3 | 6.2 | 15.2 | 18.9 | 103 | 108 | 3.7 |
| 2006-07 | 21 | 2647 | 18.3 | 50.6 | 45.8 | 7.4 | 21.0 | 14.1 | 16.3 | 2.0 | 6.1 | 16.3 | 24.1 | 99 | 102 | 3.3 |
| 2007-08 | 22 | 2873 | 19.0 | 52.0 | 46.8 | 6.6 | 20.4 | 13.5 | 16.6 | 2.3 | 5.9 | 15.5 | 25.0 | 102 | 103 | 3.4 |
The obvious similarities are steal and block rates matched by very few players and a poor FG% for a player getting half his shots in the paint. Smith looked more similar to Tyrus once I took into account that Smith didn't play significant minutes at PF until his 3rd year when he was 21. That changes how Smith's statistics for his first two seasons should be looked at in comparison to Tyrus's. If Smith was playing PF from the start it's possible his defensive rebound rate would have been around 20% like Tyrus. His STL% also would likely have been at least closer to 2% from the start. The key differences are a steady turnover rate for Smith and a lack of foul trouble that separates Tyrus and Kemp from Smith along with better offensive rebounding.
Tyrus's Future
I have come to see Tyrus's likely future as something between Smith and Kemp offensively. He's not going to be the perimeter player Smith is offensively or the post player that Kemp was. This is another example where I'm glad Tyrus is a player that didn't come into the league shooting jump shots. That would have led him down the Josh Smith path of launching 3s at a 25% clip. Tyrus's passing role should be closer to Smith's AST% somewhere between 14-18%. He really is good at making the post entry pass and finding players for easy baskets. He's a better offensive rebounder than Smith, but he'll never approach Kemp. Defensively he's closer to Smith as a shot blocker, but more like Kemp in terms of being able to defend his man in the post and stopping penetration in help defense, which is part of the reason for the higher foul rate for Thomas and Kemp. I think most people would be satisfied if Tyrus turned out to be something between Josh Smith and Shawn Kemp. Obviously the closer he gets to Kemp in terms of impact the better, and this next season should be telling. Smith has barely improved as a player over four seasons. He still only shot 29% on 2P jump shots last season. His TO% and his shot selection haven't improved either. Next season we should have a better idea of which path Thomas is following, but for right now it looks more like Kemp's.
Vinny has talked about putting players in a position to succeed. For Tyrus that means being kept close to the basket on defensive the majority of the time. Despite all the defensive mistakes, the defense has been objectively better with Tyrus on the floor. 4.0 and 3.7 points per 100 possessions better with him on the floor in his two seasons. On offense he needs to be involved in the play, either by playing in the pick and roll with Rose or with the ball in his hands creating on his own. Tyrus is never going to be great off the ball on offense. That means taking the risk of letting him create on offense. Getting him the ball on the right block or isolated at the left elbow when he has a mismatch. It means giving him the freedom to pull down a rebound and push the ball up the floor himself occasionally. And if the other players actually run the floor with him then more good than bad will happen. Eventually running some pick and rolls with Tyrus handling the ball with Deng as the screener. I watched Seattle runnng pick and rolls with Kemp handling and Schrempf as the screener in the 96' Finals. And if you've watched summer league last summer, you should have seen some of this from Tyrus in his three games. There's actually no other player on the roster that I'd rather isolate inside of 15 feet. I know he'll drive people crazy that are more focused on the mistakes than the good he can create with the ball. What's the good? 1st, Tyrus gets to the FT line on a team that doesn't and he shoots a sold FT% now. 2nd, Tyrus is the kind of passer that gets other players easy baskets inside. Over 50% of his assists were on inside shots by far the highest% on the team as well as the highest % of assists that resulted in dunks. It's a statistic that for the most part separates the guys making the routine pass for a jump shot like Kirk Hinrich from the guys who are drawing help defenders and making plays with their passing. Aaron Gray owes a lot of his best offensive performances to Tyrus getting him the ball.
I'm not suggesting that giving Tyrus the ball should be an every time down the court thing, but it should be part of the mix. With opportunities, I'm confident Tyrus will eventually improve as a finisher as he improves his skill level and more importantly understands what he can and can't do. And knowing that he'll get the ball back if he passes out of the post would help too. I don't expect everyone to share my optimism when it comes to Tyrus. But, know that my optimism comes from watching him as closely as any fan and taking a very extensive look at the numbers. If the new Bulls coaching staff actually trust and put faith in Tyrus in this way, I believe both they and the Bulls coaching staff will be rewarded.
(EDIT: I thought it might be helpful to post Hollnger's projections for Tyrus's 07/08 season to give you a better of the degree to which Tyrus was expected to improve)
| SEASON | FG% | FT% | P/40 | R/40 | A/40 | TS% | Ast | TO | Usg | Reb | PER |
| 2006-07 | .475 | .606 | 15.5 | 11.1 | 1.7 | 52.1 | 8.1 | 19.1 | 18.9 | 15.9 | 14.80 |
| 2007-08 | .423 | .741 | 15.1 | 10.3 | 2.7 | 48.6 | 13.2 | 11.3 | 18.6 | 14.5 | 14.69 |
| 2007-08 (projected) | .482 | .598 | 16.5 | 10.4 | 2.3 | 52.21 | 10.79 | 18.06 | 20.44 | 15.19 | 15.57 |
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64 comments
Comments
As long..
as TT doesn’t gain 100lbs, impregnate the city of Chi and smoke more rocks than Tyronne Biggums…ill keep reading these enjoyable Kemp/TT anologies..
Oh yeah..we better win a championship on our 1st try too.
by Belize on Jul 1, 2008 4:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Scotter
always enjoy reading the pieces you put together, as they are always well reasoned, thought-provoking, and informative. I was just curious if there were certain books you’ve read that have helped you gain your understanding of the statistical side of the game? I know everyone points to Dean Oliver’s book and Hollinger’s work, but is there anything else you’ve read? Anyway, thanks again for the always enlightening work, it makes BaB even better than it would otherwise be—which is, admittedly, still pretty awesome.
by fundamentallysound on Jul 1, 2008 8:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Besides reading Basketball on Paper,
there is the Association for Professional Basketball Research Forum, which has been helpful. It’s a place where the leaders in the field have discussions . People that work(ed) for NBA teams like Oliver, Dan Rosenbaum, and Ed Kupfer, professional writers like Hollinger, Kelly Dwyer, and Kevin Pelton, the guys who run the all the major NBA statistics websites, and people in their parents’ basement trying to create the ultimate player rating system. Dean Oliver for example has answered questions I’ve asked via PM. Some of the advanced math stuff is beyond me, but most of it’s understandable. If you want to learn. You’re best bet is to use the search function to find posts made by Dean Oliver or Ed Kupfer for example. It will take you back to some very good discussion about concepts like the relationship between usage and efficiency or how a player’s rebound rate is affected by his teammates, etc. There’s also some good articles in the 82games archives.
by Scotter on Jul 1, 2008 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, Scotter,
Love the good reads, buddy. Keep ‘em coming…
Question for you and the other stat gurus: which measures do you think are the best predictors or performance? PER, +/- adjusted, etc… I’ve never even heard of a Roland rating…
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jul 1, 2008 9:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Roland Ratings are an interesting stat that I have grown to like.
Roland Ratings combine two things. The difference between a player’s PER and the PER of the guys he primarily guarded and the difference in team point differential with the player on and off the court (Plus/Minus). So basically did the player outplay the guys he guarded and was the team better with him on the floor. Here’s a list of Roland Ratings for the 07/08 season. It seems to be a good combination of offense v. defense and individual v. team performance.
it
In terms of predicting performance, PER is pretty good at predicting PER. But, it doesn’t do a good job of predicting whether a player will help his team win or not. PER just doesn’t do a good job of explaining why a team wins games. If your looking for developmental changes or declines do to aging, PER works pretty well though as an estimate of performance.
by Scotter on Jul 1, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the Roland Rating, but one of the issues I have with it is
The use of the PER of the opposing player guarded on each possession – in some (admittedly limited) instances, this will inherently favor a poor defender who has a better-defending teammate with an interchangeable defensive position. The best example is Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich; Kirk will almost always guard the better of the two opposing guards, and therefore has a built-in disadvantage here – despite being by far the more valuable defender, his opponent PER will suffer relative to Gordon’s.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jul 1, 2008 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
(Don't confuse this argument with any particular affinity for Kirk)
I still want him shipped out this offseason, and I want Ben brainwashed to accept a reasonable extension that accurately reflects his value.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jul 1, 2008 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great work
I’d done ~25% of this research on my own, but there’s no way I’d have been able to put together something this well-organized and detailed. One additional point however – there is evidence that Tyrus plays poorly when stuck at small forward, and I believe these misinformed minutes are responsible for some of the drop in his rebound rate.
One other point: Antonio McDyess also makes for a pertinent player comparison. I don’t know how this will look in a comment box, but here are Thomas’s and McDyess’ one-season college stats, when McDyess was one year older than Thomas (‘94-’95) – it’s not pace-adjusted or anything, but this is interesting nonetheless. Note that McDyess’ professional progression was in-line with Kemp’s as well:
G MIN FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA REB PF AST TO BLK STL PTS
A.McDyess 33 862 185 361 0 1 88 132 337 109 21 78 66 28 458
T.Thomas 32 829 152 250 1 1 90 137 295 82 42 59 99 33 395
MIN FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG TPG BPG SPG PPG
A.McDyess 26.1 51.2 0.0 66.7 10.2 0.6 2.4 2.0 0.8 13.9
T.Thomas 25.9 60.8 100.0 65.7 9.2 1.3 1.8 3.1 1.0 12.3
There are some differences – McDyess’ usage rate is much higher, while Thomas’s block rate was astronomical – but in general these two players displayed frighteningly similar skills in these respective seasons. I found this comparison to be pretty eerie when I discovered it around draft-time two years ago, and I’ve been tracking Thomas’ performance versus McDyess and Kemp as a pro ever since. I share Scotter’s optimism that Thomas can develop to have a similar impact as these two players.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jul 1, 2008 10:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Going into the 2006 draft, I did think Antono McDyess was a great comparison.
I didn’t think it matched so well after Tyrus’s rookie season because McDyess never came anywhere close to the turnover trouble or foul trouble that Tyrus had as a rookie and didn’t have the positive defensive impact that Tyrus did or get to the FT line at any where close to the rate that Tyrus did. After his rookie season turnovers and fouls had to be taken into account when talking about Tyrus’s future. Given the way Tyrus cut his turnover rate, I think McDyess enters the picture again in the way Josh Smith does.
Here’s the most intriguing thing about McDyess right now. In his 1st two seasons McDyess had 15.5 and 15.6 PER (not significantly different in PER terms from Tyrus’s 14.8 and 14.7) with TS% under 52% both years for the 24 best offensive team n the league. Then for his third year McDyess to goes to a Phoenix with Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, and Kevin Johnson all playing over 20 min/g. McDyess jumps up to a PER of 20.3 and TS% of 57.1%. When McDyess went back to Denver the next season his FG% dropped back down, but his PER stayed around 20. I suspect something similar would have happened for Tyrus if he spent that year with Kidd, Nash, and KJ.
by Scotter on Jul 1, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kemp and Tyrus
I certainly enjoy reading all of your posts and the numbers look promising for Tyrus’ development. But I think the most important part of this entire piece was:
I don’t expect Tyrus to ever play with the power that Kemp did.
I think this is the big limitation that Tyrus has to overcome to be an above-average NBA PF. He needs to be more forceful and assertive in rebounding and on offense. I think this is what we were all expecting when we saw his physical development before last season, but it didn’t show on the court.
If Tyrus becomes a “bad man” like Shawn Kemp was in his Seattle prime, he has the ability to dominate. If he gets knocked around by the Poseys of the NBA, or gets thrown off his game by his number of minutes or his mental mistakes or whatever else, he will never get there.
by nateroth on Jul 1, 2008 10:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I believe this marks the first time a fanpost here
will have to be printed out and read on the train :)
management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 1, 2008 11:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments
Great article, very informative and data driven.
It’s funny how here we are again in the offseason talking about Tyrus. The truth of the matter is that the success of the team ultimately falls on his shoulders. He is the wild card that could either push us to become a top caliber team or let us down and resort to the contested jump-shooting bunch of 2007-08.
I think another reason that there is always so much debate about Tyrus is that he is the most difficult to predict, it only takes a look back one year to see how wrong preseason predictions were.
I have very high hopes for Tyrus and frequently disagree with those who think that the case is closed that he is a worse player than Aldridge. The most concerning thing I have heard though was David Thorpe, Tyrus’ offseason trainer, saying he never sees Tyrus developing into a 20 – 10 guy. That hurts.
by Jud Buechler on Jul 1, 2008 11:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
when did he say that?
all i’ve read recently is thorpe’s positive comments on tyrus.
by Jaina on Jul 1, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thorpe agrees with the 10, just not the 20.
If you look at any of the guys with even some similarity to Tyrus, 20 points per game has pretty much their ceiling as a scorer. Kemp never averaged more than 19.6 in a full season McDyess topped out at 21, while taking more shots than Tyrus will ever take. If the questioner had said 17 and 10 that would likely have been a different answer.
by Scotter on Jul 1, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he's a 17-10 guy with impact defense
I think we’ll all be very happy.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jul 1, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed, with you guys Jivas and Scotter
being a 20-10 guy is vastly overrated (see: Randolph, Zach). I’d rather have TT as a 15-17 and 10 guy and have his game changing defense and very good passing skills for a big man, than a simple 20-10 guy who does little else (also see: Jefferson, Al, his defense is atrocious).
by fundamentallysound on Jul 1, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree* (with no comma)
damn it, forgot to proofread. :-P
by fundamentallysound on Jul 1, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wasn't he averaging something like 17 - 13 when
He played 30 minutes or more last year?
by gman2849 on Jul 1, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From a purely subjective standpoint - and I'm no NBA scout -
I think that Tyrus’s offense may be at some sort of inflection point right now. Opposing power forwards sag off him on defense because with this lightning quickness he’s a constant threat to drive around them for a dunk – it is these wide-open jumpers that allows someone with otherwise limited offensive skills to have such a strong Usage Rate. However, last year he improved his jump shot significantly, but not significantly enough to change his defender’s “sag off” defensive strategy.
HOWEVA…if he can improve his jump shot again this offseason – and this is easier said than done as incremental gains from this point will be more and more difficult to achieve – he’s not far from truly making defenses pay for leaving him open for 15-foot jump shots, and therefore he’s not far from affecting a change in how he is defended. I have a sneaking suspicion that if he can achieve another incremental gain in his jump shot FG%, this can have a dramatic effect on his offensive production:
(1) First, he’s making more baskets, and will be even more willing to take the jump shot; and
(2) Second, he’ll force opposing defenders to challenge the shot, which will create driving lanes for easy baskets/dunks and trips to the free throw line.
This may be wildly optimistic on my part, but with this “inflection point”, driven by another marginal gain in shooting ability, I think there’s a chance for TT to become more of a high-usage offensive player.
___
One other thing – in addition to what is included in Scotter’s great post above, TT has made dramatic at the free-throw line over his career:
Pre-ASG Rookie – 55.3%
Post-ASGRookie – 65.6%
Pre-ASG 2nd Year – 71.9%
Post-ASG 2nd Year – 76.9%
If he can increase his FTA/FGA ratio, here’s a little more reason for optimism for what TT can become offensively.
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by Jivas on Jul 1, 2008 12:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's the ultimate question
I wouldn’t say he is a lazy bum and remember that when he came into the league he was portrayed more in the Rose vein (hard worker, quiet, willing to improve his game) than the Beasley vein (immature punk).
He needs more minutes and to learn how to let the rhythm of the game come to him. He often looks very abrupt out there instead of smooth and comfortable. Getting that mid range jumper to fall would work wonders on his game.
by Jud Buechler on Jul 1, 2008 1:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Based upon the conjecture and limited information available
And through making assumptions based on this limited information, my opinion is that it’s not that Tyrus has been a lazy bum, it’s that he didn’t understand the extent of work that was expected of him as a professional. Therefore, he may have thought he was working hard because he lacked an understanding of the level of work that is necessary for him to achieve at this level.
My wholly biased and unabashedly optimistic opinion is that this seems to be changing for the better.
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by Jivas on Jul 1, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After reading
comments from Noah and others about how little the org invested in their development when they came in and having to hire outside help themselves to try to make up for it I find it hard to criticize what Tyrus might have done his first years with the Bulls with that kind of indifference from the org. If he only did what little the Bulls org offered him and then the Bulls come back and publicly said he didn’t work hard enough…I don’t think they can have it both ways.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
by cranscape on Jul 1, 2008 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hopefully
Tyrus will have less illegitimate children
I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE
by CONOR6 on Jul 1, 2008 1:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
fewer?
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jul 2, 2008 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
did anyone see the article on shawn kemp jr on si.com?
it was like, kemp (not junior) has fathered at least 8 children by 6 women. or something like that. but it was just funny that the article was insinuating he may have more children than known.
by Jaina on Jul 12, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
tyrus is going to be very good, he just needs to play.
and i think he is going to be better than kemp and smith.
by FUTURE12 on Jul 1, 2008 10:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Great analysis but big natural position difference
The stats may be comparable but the players themselves aren’t necessarily and I think the statistical comparison is a bit distorting. Early in his career I also compared Tyrus to Kemp but I found myself doing so mainly due to my (tinted) memories of Kemp’s proflic and aesthetically appealing alley-oop assault, but, as you mentioned, Kemp played with more power than we should expect from Ty but the biggest difference is that Kemp was always a 4, while Tyrus never was really until his first non-redshirt year. It’s arguable if Tyrus is even a 4 today.
I don’t think we’d have compared a Tyrus while still in LSU to Kemp nor do I recall any draft commentary ever making that comparison as well, and I think it’s because these two guys are just not really comparable as players. Tyrus is a 3 trying to become a 4, and a hybrid at best, more in the mold of a Kirilenko or Marion. Kemp was always an undisputed 4, not just in terms of size but style of play. And Tyrus clearly always saw himself as a 3 and tailored his play accordingly:
Joseph Treutlein Is there anything to your game you can offer that we haven’t seen at LSU?Tyrus Thomas I have a lot to offer. You know, you guys like to say that I can’t dribble and I can’t shoot. That all I can do is dunk and block shots, but that’s what was required of me for the team to win, and that’s what I did. I could’ve easily played outside of the system, shot the ball and put the ball on the floor, but we were winning with what we were doing so that’s what you stick to.
Joseph Treutlein Do you think you’re better suited to play small forward or power forward in the NBA?
Tyrus Thomas Small forward.
Joseph Treutlein What do you think you need to work on to play small forward at the NBA level?
Tyrus Thomas Like I said, you have to keep working on every part of your game. A lot of people don’t know, I never played in the post until I got to LSU. It’s like riding a bicycle, once you learn, you can’t really forget how. I think I’d be better on the perimeter, but if I had to play the post, that’s what I’d do.
by messwiththebull on Jul 1, 2008 10:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Read the post again. You missed the point.
The Kemp comparison was more about how Tyrus is developing than it was propping Tyrus up as the 2nd coming off Shawn Kemp. Obsessing about Kemp’s power gets you no where because there’s only a handful of guys ever in NBA history that played like that. Most of Kemp’s power was about dunking the ball really hard. It’s 2 points however you dunk the ball. Tyrus may not have been compared to Kemp, but he was certainly compared to the likes of Antonio McDyess before he was drafted. Paxson drafted him as a PF, and he meets every objective requirement for the position. Blocks shots, defends, and is an above-average rebounder at PF. He can defend the position, which is what really matters at PF not how hard he dunks.
As for Tyrus wanting to be a small forward. Nearly every NBA player wants to play a perimeter position because they all want to be able to go 1 on 1 off the dribble. It’s about having the ball and getting to score and show off their skills without all the work of getting post position. Kemp wanted to be a small forward too. He hated being labeled a post player already in HS.Josh Smith wants to be a SF if not a SG. Beasley thought he was a SF. Garnett wanted to be a SF. Duncan doesn’t want to be labeled a center. What the % of experts that agree with him? It wasn’t very high, maybe 10% at the highest. Every undersized SG says that their really a PG. Players are pretty usually the worst source when assessing what position they should play. Tyrus isn’t a SF and he never was going to be one. There’s no rational argument for Tyrus being more qualified to play SF than PF.
by Scotter on Jul 1, 2008 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Tyrus isn't a SF?
The guy has little to no post game, his size clearly resembles that more of a 3 than a 4, he prefers to shoot jumpers and drive to the rim, and he wants to handle the ball. He is a a hybrid 3/4 at best, but clearly weighted more on the 3 side. This is partially why I think he’s struggled so much early on because he’s being forced to play out of position. He only “played” 4 during his one year at LSU, and even then, he was more of a hybrid player.
I’m not knocking your anaylsis, just not sure why you singled out Kemp for your comparison when really, they’re not comparable.
by messwiththebull on Jul 2, 2008 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus has played better at the 4 than the 3.
I’m sure there are stats somewhere to back this up, but I don’t remember where right now.
by potato0328 on Jul 2, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A couple of points
First of all, Tyrus’s size is more than sufficient for a power forward, regardless of whether he’s grown since his pre-draft measurement.
Second, he won’t be able to shoot jumpers and drive to the rim very effectively against opposing small forwards, who will be able to match (or come close to) his quickness – however, these moves will be available to him all day against opposing power forwards, which makes those skills valuable assets at the 4 rather than at the 3.
Third, as Scotter points out, one of TT’s assets is his ability to create high-percentage shots – however, this requires him to be aligned closer to the rim when he’s off the ball, making him a better fit for the 4.
Fourth, his value on defense is his ability to defend the rim and block/alter shots, which requires him to play closer to the basket.
Tyrus’s best position, clearly, is power forward. It’s not even close.
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by Jivas on Jul 2, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah
As potato points out – although the sample size is pretty small – without question, TT has played better at the 4 than at the 3. Again, this isn’t close.
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by Jivas on Jul 2, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure it's close
His best position may be power forward, but that doesn’t mean he’s a power forward. That may not make sense so I would compare it to Kirilenko. AK’s best position is the 4 but he’s clearly not a 4. Get it?
Tyrus never played the 4 until he came to the Bulls and the sample you’re taking for his time at the 3 came mostly during the Boylan era, I’m assuming, where Tyrus was put out on the floor as a 3 for good stretches yet then chastised in the media for not playing around the basket like a 4. Part of his struggles have come from the appearance that the Bulls weren’t necessarily sure of what he was, if not, then why even put him out there as a 3?
by messwiththebull on Jul 2, 2008 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What position did he play in college if it wasn't the 4?
Tyrus isn’t a good enough ball handler to get to the basket from 18-20 feet out on the floor off the bounce. At he 4 his perimeter skills are an asset at the 3 they’re a liability. Look around the league. It’s mostly 3s running around at PF by your definition.
by Scotter on Jul 2, 2008 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He played the 4
but due to need. I recall even seeing Deng at the 4 at Duke but that was likewise out of need. I do agree with you that, much like David Thorpe said, Ty is probably a 4 in today’s NBA, but that’s because today’s NBA is filled with tweeners.
The gist of my point which I’m sure was lost in all my posts is that I don’t see Ty being anything like Kemp but rather an AK-47 or Marion type of player and that I would never compare those latter two players to Kemp, even if they had statistical similarities.
by messwiththebull on Jul 5, 2008 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kemp was one dimensional. Marion was 4 dimensional.
I see Tyrus as more like Kemp than Marion because he is more of a one dimensional player. He’s trying to work in that jump shot and maybe he’ll perfect it and that’ll open up his game, but so far on the court he’s been dunks and blocks, one dimensional. Marion can shoot the 3 and guard the perimeter, the paint and the post, in addition to the glass work and dunks that made him the Matrix. Tyrus MIGHT evolve into a Matrix type of player but so far on the court he has only been one dimensional.
by JockstrapNoah on Jul 5, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
your dimension counting is confusing at best.
dunks and blocks are one dimension? i think you listed like nine dimensions for marion.
fuck you, that's my name!! you know why, mister? 'cause you drove a hyundai to get here tonight, I drove a eighty thousand dollar bmw. that's my name!!
by MarketMaker on Jul 8, 2008 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Tyrus ends up being a good player
And if his best position is power forward, it’s not going to matter to me one bit whether or not anyone has a subjective view that he’s not really a “power forward”. I’ll be happy with the skills that he provides, and I’ll worry about supplementing those skills with various other roster decisions.
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by Jivas on Jul 2, 2008 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not what power is good for
Obsessing about Kemp’s power gets you no where because there’s only a handful of guys ever in NBA history that played like that. Most of Kemp’s power was about dunking the ball really hard. It’s 2 points however you dunk the ball. Tyrus may not have been compared to Kemp, but he was certainly compared to the likes of Antonio McDyess before he was drafted. Paxson drafted him as a PF, and he meets every objective requirement for the position. Blocks shots, defends, and is an above-average rebounder at PF. He can defend the position, which is what really matters at PF not how hard he dunks.
You know enough about basketball to know that a power game is good for more than just hard dunks and highlight videos. Other PFs and even SFs push Tyrus around. They didn’t do that to Kemp in his prime. You can have all the athletic ability in the world but if a stronger and less athletic guy knocks you on your ass, you’re not getting the rebound or establishing post position. That’s one reason why Tyrus has not met his potential so far.
by nateroth on Jul 2, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
My reference to power was style of play and physicality, not how emphatic one’s dunks are. I don’t see him being able to play man on most 4s in this league, but I see him being able to play man on most 3s in this league.
by messwiththebull on Jul 2, 2008 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus isn't in his prime.
You think a 21 year old 230 lb. Kemp didn’t get pushed around by Karl Malone? Do you remember what Horace Grant looked like as a 22 year old rookie? Defending the post has as much to do with desire and technique as it does strength, and denying the player from getting the ball in the 1st place. And how much Tyrus gets pushed around is over blown like a lot things with the players on this roster. He doesn’t give up more inside shots or higher FG% than the heavy PFs like Boozer. Tyrus’s strength issues need to be put in context. And tremendous help defense is far more important than man defense where there is a lot of help defense when it comes to defending the post.
by Scotter on Jul 2, 2008 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair Enough
I don’t expect him to be at Kemp’s level just yet, I just wanted to point out that what is holding him back right now is his style of play. I has the talent and athletic ability, but he needs to be tougher and more assertive. I think he can get there (he was really being helped in that regard by PJ and Big Ben) but he’s still got a lot of work to do.
by nateroth on Jul 2, 2008 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understood your point
but I don’t know why you singled out Kemp in particular (though you also brought up Josh Smith) even to the extent of comparing their personalities and newspaper quotes. The two really have little in common aside from similar components of PER at this time of Tyrus’ career, but how many other players would fall under this as well?
by messwiththebull on Jul 2, 2008 8:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Last comment, I promise
I loved your analysis, just wanted to throw something out for further debate. Your initial filtering of data that led to singling out Kemp is all the reason one would need to make this comparison. If my tone indicated otherwise, I apologize.
by messwiththebull on Jul 2, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scotter
Thanks for this posts, analysis and stats. Very enlighting. There are various opinions on Tyrus. I haven’t been so positive in the past, but I believe Tyrus’s now projected and realistic ceilings are coming closer to one another.
Some speculate a consistent actual average (not PER projection).. 17/10, while I believe we would all be happy with 15/10 (pts/rb). With improving defense and averaging 3 blocks and his apg increasing portionately with playing more time. Still theses numbers probably will never position Tyrus to be an All-star in the NBA or play in the All-Star game? Not really a big deal!
Tyrus as a somewhat skinny 4 at (215 – 220) pounds is a problem, and he will continue to get pushed around until he gets stronger. Tyrus frame looks more built to increase weight and strength as he get older (hasn’t yet happen with Tyson Chandler?).
I believe Tyrus needs plenty of time in the weight room, while also working on his offensive post game. Playing with Rose, and a faster offense will be a plus. Still, the kid has his work cut out for him, and he can do it if he really wants it? The question is does he want it as bad as his supporters envision?
Based on one point of my limited knowledge in his past. He displayed that he prefers to take the easy road. This was during the period he entered the NBA draft in 2006 and his collective comments surrounding that period up into he was drafted.
But, that one period cannot be a basis to judge Tyrus solely and whether he has the fortitude to fight to take the next step in the NBA to improve to the point where many project he should be?
by exult463 on Jul 2, 2008 11:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Scott
any chance we could get a similar analysis of Poohdini vs. CP3 / Deron Williams. Those seem to be the two players everyone wants to compare him to, anyway you could examine his college numbers to see if that’s a legitimate comparison in the way you’ve done here with Kemp and TT?
by fundamentallysound on Jul 3, 2008 11:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I've looked at the numbers
And the CP3 and Jason Kidd comparables are laughable based on college statistics; for example, Rose’s Pure Point Ratio last season was 1.63, while Jason Kidd’s was 3.90 as a college freshman (interesting tangent – Dwyane Wade’s PPR was negative in each of his two seasons at Marquette). HOWEVA … as noted on multiple other threads there is a belief that Memphis’s dribble-drive motion offense does not lend itself to it’s point guards racking up assists, and therefore Rose is at a systematic disadvantage. If anything, I think a study of point guard assist percentages would be particularly meaningful, to see if there is anything to this theory; alas, I don’t think enough teams run this style of offense (yet) for there to be any real meaningful data.
Basically, if you’re looking for really optimistic views you’re not going to get it from a fair and unbiased statistical analysis; the advantages for Rose are on the subjective side.
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by Jivas on Jul 3, 2008 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I should point out
That I was a Rose lean throughout the process, as posted on numerous occasions – it’s just that the argument for him is subjective and is not objective or heavily based in quantitative analysis.
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by Jivas on Jul 3, 2008 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well put
I think that’s why more of us didn’t freak out when Hollinger posted his opinions… Rose is more of a scout’s guy than a computer guy at this point.
by potato0328 on Jul 5, 2008 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His son looks pretty good
In a defensive minded way, his highlight tape shows him with only one basket (a dunk) the rest are blocks, etc.
http://rivalshoops.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?pr_key=70211&Sport=2
Maybe the Bulls could pick him up in a few years…
by POSEYHATER on Jul 5, 2008 12:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We should keep an eye on Shawn Kemp Jr.
Or we should wait a few months and take a look at Shawn Kemp III. Or we can wait for Shawn Kemp IV. I heard he is better. But I heard the best one is Shawn Kemp VIII.
by Fastbreak on Jul 12, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there any way we can email this post to Pax/VDN?
It’s awesome.
When I watch NBA games I often call the fouls before the referees do. Sometimes it’s a gift. Most of the time it's troublesome. - NBA Observer
by Illini15 on Jul 6, 2008 11:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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