Blog a Bull: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:

Around SBN: Cleveland Cavaliers 2008-09 Season Preview Bar-right-arrows

Lots of Bulls audio from WSCR

Thabo Sefolosha, Rose's HS coach, Noah-nemesis Ron Adams, Kendall Gill, Rod Strickland, and Pax.

I'm tired so I won't listen until tomorrow, but just a heads up.

Link 3 months ago Blogabull_s_tiny your friendly BullsBlogger Comment 99 comments 0 recs |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

pax will be on with Mully and Hanley this morning

at 10:35.

So even more podcasts!

by KT on Jun 27, 2008 9:38 AM CDT   0 recs

He was on Mike/Mike this morning as well

I was a bit groggy, but they did pin Paxson down and got him to say they decided on Rose a couple of days ago.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 27, 2008 9:43 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Is there a way to listen to that interview?

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 27, 2008 9:54 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

not yet

but they’ll have it up eventually. Might be only insider though.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 27, 2008 9:59 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Rose presentation this morning!

I read that Rose was going to talk with the press this morning (11:00). Someone knows if there will be some stream like when it was the presentation of VDN?

Please Pax!!! Can you trade Hughes???

by bull83 on Jun 27, 2008 9:51 AM CDT   0 recs

Pas is live on ESPN1000

Please Pax!!! Can you trade Hughes???

by bull83 on Jun 27, 2008 10:07 AM CDT   0 recs

*Pax

Please Pax!!! Can you trade Hughes???

by bull83 on Jun 27, 2008 10:08 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Shuster tells Thabo

he sees a starting backcourt in the 08-09 season of Rose and Thabo,

On the surface, I can see the objective here being starting the game with rim attacking guards and strong defense to keep the game close and force the opponents’ guards into foul trouble. Once you reach into the opponents bench you bring in Gordon for Thabo to slow the pace into half court sets and let Gordon go to work to extend leads or shift the tide from behind to ahead.

by NBA Observer on Jun 27, 2008 10:42 AM CDT   0 recs

Gordon won't stay if he's a backup.

How about we start w/ the only real scorer on the team on the floor?

by tyger1147 on Jun 27, 2008 10:46 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

no no no

if we do that, the opponents PLAN for it. This way, Gordon’s a complete surprise.

Thabo’s more of a rim-attacking guard than Gordon? I think your scenario works with him too, and then if they get in trouble on defense then you bring in Thabo as the specialist.

I do like that Rose-Gordon-Thabo can all do really well on the break. I think Gordon’s a bit underrated there, especially as a ballhandler. Maybe because he can’t be trapped :)

I’m not sure Gordon would demand he be a starter to re-sign. Plus the Bulls could always lie to him. I’d rather they did that instead of saying he’ll have to ‘earn’ it, and chasing Gordon away.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 27, 2008 11:04 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

"I'm not sure Gordon would demand he be a starter..."

I agree. I’d think it’s mostly about getting paid.

Gordon has such a strong work ethic that I’d think as long as he’s getting paid what the thinks is fair he believes he can earn his status on the floor.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 27, 2008 11:10 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll put on my pseudopsych hat and agree with that

Gordon’s very confident, so he likely thinks he can flat-out win the job. Having a new coach with a supposed clean slate would help his case too.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 27, 2008 11:21 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

A year with Rose and coming off the bench

Could really help Gordon. He deserves to be paid like the 20ppg scorer he is now and if his defense improves leading to less fouls combined with a few more FT attempts per game, then he’s in the mid 20s in ppg. This is max contract territory. We have to pay him this money.

If things do not work out, Gordon still has his money, and his production will be there to move him.

The position I previously held of “how do we pay max money for a bench guy” was entirely favorable to the Bulls. I was wrong.

by NBA Observer on Jun 27, 2008 11:22 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What is fair value for Gordon?

6 to 7 million a year for the Bulls – 9-10 million from Gordon and his agent. Then finally settle in the middle?

by Jesse07 on Jun 27, 2008 11:23 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

We have to pay Ben max or near max money

We need Gordon happy. We need his focus off his contact and on his game. Isolate this distraction, pay him the big contract, get all his basketball talent out there, and you’ll get his best production to either keep him or trade him to a team where he’s better suited.

by NBA Observer on Jun 27, 2008 11:26 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Paxson made the mistake with Noc

of way out-bidding the market. He could have had Noc for a lot less.

I don’t think he’ll make the same “mechanical” error in his bid for Gordon and Deng.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 27, 2008 11:31 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Bid for Noce

Still his mistake is going to hamstring him.

by Jesse07 on Jun 27, 2008 11:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Paxson got fooled by Chris Wallace

I doubt they were ever serious about signing Noce, yet he panicked and gave Noce way too much money. Still, he’s a very tradeable asset.

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 27, 2008 11:35 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Who cares

As long as he’s gone, lol.

I think contending teams like the Suns or Mavs could use his feistiness, New York could definitely use an established player since Danilo may take time to develop and their other SF is Jared Jefferies. If we get an expiring contract in return I’d go for it.

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 27, 2008 11:50 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

getting fooled by Chris Wallace

yikes. :)

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 27, 2008 12:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

thanks

I can now keep quiet..

by exult463 on Jun 27, 2008 1:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

agreed

we all have to remember that there’s pretty much nobody in a position to bid for the Bulls RFAs.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 27, 2008 12:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sixers have 11 mil

Sign BG at 11 mil per. Extend Igoudala at 12 mil per. See what Lou Williams wants. Miller comes off the books after next season.

http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/sixers.jsp

by NBA Observer on Jun 27, 2008 1:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah, they're the only real threat

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 27, 2008 1:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Stefanski does keep saying he wants a 4

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 27, 2008 1:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And that 4 might be Brand

"I'm a Bulls fan," -Barack Obama

by Goostafer on Jun 27, 2008 2:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think Brand fits in with what they have

With Igoudala, Young, and Williams, this team needs to run. Plus, other than Miller’s expiring deal, they may not have what it takes to get Brand without giving up the players that would make them contenders. If they were able to add Brand to what they already have, they’d be contenders in the East. Giving up Miller and one of the aformentioned 3 youngins probably leaves them in the lower half of the playoffs.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 27, 2008 3:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You're probably right

but they are the only team that can give him the money he might want. And also have a need at the 4 he could fill. I think on PTI a few weeks ago they said Brand was interested in Philly. Also on ESPN Radio . Who knows?

"I'm a Bulls fan," -Barack Obama

by Goostafer on Jun 27, 2008 3:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

They only have $11M in capspace

If Brand opts out, that probably wouldn’t be enough to land him.

We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan

by snley on Jun 27, 2008 4:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sign and Trade

They could offer LA salary relief by taking brand at 16 mil a year or so and only sending back 5 mil in contracts plus draft picks maybe, and give LA a huge traded player exception. A long shot of course.

"Me like to shoot much" - Andres Nocioni

by BNeL21 on Jun 27, 2008 4:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

speights has got a similar game to brand's...

a very ‘poor man’s’ brand.

picking up brand would seem strange.

by swede2287 on Jun 28, 2008 12:46 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That tempers

my worries of dangling cash in front of Gordon.

by NBA Observer on Jun 27, 2008 3:17 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

we cant pay a 6th man 10 MIL

Gordon is at his best off the bench he is the 2008 Vinny “Microwave”Johnson

CHICAGO MANE!!!!

by YEP on Jun 27, 2008 11:46 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Because

sitting him the first few minutes of the game does what exactly? I’ve never understood having Ben come off the bench, especially since a few minutes later we put him in for scoring anyway. He scores 20 a game. Pay him what it takes to stay and start him if you don’t want to pay a bench player that much. Otherwise you are running out of town a guy who gives you 20 points a game and where exactly are we going to make those point up when he is gone?

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Jun 27, 2008 11:55 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Because...

BG is a defensive liability to start the game…i would rather have him come in later than have him get two quick fouls and be on the bench anyway

CHICAGO MANE!!!!

by YEP on Jun 27, 2008 1:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If he plays 25-35 minutes..

who cares if he comes off the bench!!

CHICAGO MANE!!!!

by YEP on Jun 27, 2008 1:05 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Uh,

you do apparently. You won’t pay him what he needs to stay on the team if he is a bench player. So you are pretty much shipping him out.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Jun 27, 2008 1:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Read what you wrote. You just said

we can’t pay a 6th man 10 mil. But 10 mil is what it will probably take to keep him on the team. So that would suggest we start him to justify the cost for people such as yourself stuck on how much you pay bench people. Because once again, how are we going to make up the 20 point hole his absence would leave us in if we get rid of him?

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Jun 27, 2008 1:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

We wouldn't be paying BG for his turn off the bench

it would be for the 20+ PPG he produces. Those guys are hard to find. 6th man or no, BG is going to get 30+ minutes so pay him like a guy who plays 30+ minutes and scores your 20+. I’d say $10m is as high as I’d go unless you think BG can breakout and hit that 23-25 PPG mark playing with a guy like Rose. BG looked like he was on his way there before last season.

I think BG would be happier with Kirk off the team as well. Somehow I get the impression that Kirk had the teacher’s pet label from guys like BG and Du who kept getting benched in favor of Kirk, even though their production was comparable and/or better.

by messwiththebull on Jun 27, 2008 12:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I wouldn't go that high

I’d say offer 6/$60 (so he’d actually get an extra year by not signing the extension last year).

If he turns that down, go higher money but let him have an early opt-out after 3 seasons. That way if he thinks he’s a max player, he can prove it in 3 years.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 27, 2008 12:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Why go even this high?

This is way over his value.

Let some other team bid for him or QO or 6-7 a year.

by BAB-Bass on Jun 27, 2008 1:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What are we?

The Clippers?

Pay the man what he deserves based on his production not based on what we can hatchet him to take.

by NBA Observer on Jun 27, 2008 1:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

"What he deserves"...

You and many others on this blog value offense too much…

Defense is more important.

I wouldn’t mind seeing BG just walk. I bulleive we would be a better team for it. But I am willing to see if his – 7.7 (Net+/-per100pos) was an abberation or if he just plain sucks. (In a wholistic b-ball sort of way. ie taking into account more than his jumper.)

So that means signing him to the QO, signing him to a longterm deal around 6-8 mil per or letting some other team offer him a contract (yeah, right!) and then matching if it’s affordable. The market is not there for that. We have the upper hand. Use it. Don’t make the Kirk/Noce contract mistakes again!

10-12 mil/year for BG is CRAZY! :O

by BAB-Bass on Jun 27, 2008 6:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He deserves market value.

Paxson needs to find out what that is, although my guess is he probably already has a pretty good idea. In fact, he probably had a pretty good idea last year…of this year’s market value.

My feeling is Paxson has the upper hand in the negotiations with both Deng and Gordon. The players’ options (cap-spaced suiters) are limited, and as long as Paxson’s not smug about it, the players will probably end up being happy to come back to the Bulls.

(OK—that’s my best NBAO impersonation, but then I’m barely into chapter 2.)

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 27, 2008 7:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Last time I checked

the team with the most points at the end of the game wins. BG’s 20 points isn’t anything to snub and is hard to replace when gone. His defense isn’t the best but it isn’t terrible and he certainly isn’t like some players who just refuse to try on the defensive end. If everyone buys in to the new system and steps up their defense to what it was in previous years we should be fine with BG and be able to cover his deficiencies on that end when he is on the floor. If all else fails we can put Thabo in as a defensive stopper. We need a guard like BG who can put up points and no of the other guard on our team has as nice of shot as he does. I say pay him his money. He has been the best scorer on our team.

Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.

by cranscape on Jun 27, 2008 8:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, you've got that part right, at least... ;)

The point is to score more than your opponents… For all of BG’s 18.6 PPG the Bulls had a n+-p100p of -7.7. By far the worst on the team last year. Gooden was second worst with -3.2… In comparison Kirk was +0,7, Thabo was +1,9 and Noah was a team-best +5,4. So your argument is faulty. His lousy defense and whatever else makes his overall contributions add up to a negative.

I agree with Kendall Gill and the interviewer in starting Rose with Thabo. I was wanting Thabo to start with Kirk last year, at LEAST since the Denver game.

But like I said I am willing to see whether with a new coach and system BG will be a better conributor or not. Right now I see him as at most a 6/7 man, but a good one. That is why it is ludirous to sign him to a longterm 10-15 mil deal. Give him one year to prove he is worth more. If he is, fine. Give him more.

I’m kinda drunk so I dunno if that is a satisfying answer… If it’s not, lemme know. ;)

by BAB-Bass on Jun 28, 2008 4:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Defense is fun if your team has players that can score

Know why Boston focused on defense in the offseason? Because they had 3 guys who could average 20 a night. Bulls don’t have that luxury, their offense is a giant question mark, being run by a rookie PG. Thus, wouldn’t it be advantageous to pay a guy who has proven he can score consistently? Didn’t we spend 60 million dollars on energy and hustle 2 summers ago? How did that turn out?

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 27, 2008 9:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hmmm, where to begin...?

YFBB: This might turn a slight bit Aleccy… So you might want to stop reading… Be warned.

Alec: No offense man…. ;)

Defense is fun… Yah, it can be… I’ve thoroughly enjoyed playing killer team D and averaging a win-margin of over 40 points per game for a whole season…. ;)

I know WHY Boston focused on defense in the off-season… That’s what it frickin’ takes to WIN!! I know. 21 years as a player and 4 as a coach have taught me as much.

Someone wrote a while back that the last 20 years the teams who have won the NBA title where either very good defensive teams or excellent defensive teams starting with the Pistons in 89.

And that’s totally right!

Defense is what wins titles in basketball. On any level. Right now BG is just too big of a defensive liability to put him on a level where he “deserves” that kind of money. (10-15 mil) If the numbers from last year hold true they would be better just by benching him… Like I’ve said several times I’m willing to give him ONE more chance, but it would be REALLY stupid to give him huge money at this point when you are holding all the cards…

He’s a poor man’s Gilbert Arenas. Anybody here disagree with the statement that the Wizards played better without him? So I believe the Bulls could be better (as they were this year) when BG was not playing.

Pardon the messiness… This was all over the place… But I think there is a point or two in there… Somewhere.. ;)

by BAB-Bass on Jun 28, 2008 4:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I was thinking Lebron/Wade type of deal

Give him 3 years and more money per or more years and slightly less per.

Off the top of my head without reviewing the entire roster’s financial status…
3 years, 40 million
4 years, 48 million

Maybe tag an extra year that’s a player option or pay him more money with the extra year being a club option.

by NBA Observer on Jun 27, 2008 1:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

12 million/year?In 3 years deal even 13.3 mil???

Too much for him.10 is the max,preferbly 8-9.

"YES,WE CAN!"-B.OBAMA.

by Azabullsfan on Jun 27, 2008 2:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He turned down more than 10 mil per already

Do we really want to low him now?

We’re not the LA Clippers. Gordon is worth the money.

The list of 20ppg guards that cannot be traded or are untradeable is really short.

by NBA Observer on Jun 27, 2008 3:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Stop with the "We're not the Clippers" when talking about being cheap, you're about 5 years too late.

They had a higher payroll than we did this year, gave Brand a max contract, signed Kaman to huge money, and are paying Cuttino Mobley and Tim Thomas a combined $15 million next year. Not the best deals of course, but they’re still throwing money out there.

See what you did, now I’m defending the damn Clippers.

"Me like to shoot much" - Andres Nocioni

by BNeL21 on Jun 27, 2008 3:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Here's the list of guys at SG who scored more than Gordon.

On ESPN

13 guys total
1 is the same age (martin)
2 are younger (Roy and Ellis)
Those are the only three 26 or younger
6 will be 29 or older this coming season
1 did it w/ better 3 pt shooting (Dunleavy)
10 did it w/ a better FG%
1 did it on fewer FTA (Richardson)

Essentially, Gordon is a shorter, but better shooting, version of Jason Richardson. And Richardson isn’t even that good on defense.

Gordon’s a unique player, but he’s still definitely good. People here underestimate just how good his jump shot is. He’s definitely worth up to $12 mil per. More than that, and it’s debatable.

by tyger1147 on Jun 27, 2008 3:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

plus it was a bad season for him

(I hope)

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 27, 2008 3:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Just wondering

If Gordon is an aberration, then is Hinrich as well? Or is it just because BG fills a need much better that he’s not talked about as trade bait as much.

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 27, 2008 4:05 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And the contract situation.

And Gordon’s year wasn’t as bad as Hinrich’s. And Gordon’s best year is better than Hinrich’s best year. And because he’s younger.

And yes, because they just drafted a PG and therefore Gordon fills a need better than Hinrich.

by tyger1147 on Jun 27, 2008 4:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hinrich's could be as well

but it’s not the same track record. Hinrich’s had one really good season. Gordon’s had a couple. And Hinrich’s bad years aren’t as bad as Gordon’s bad years.

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 27, 2008 4:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

that sounds like a better idea...

dunno if ben would go for that.

he might want the security of more years.

by swede2287 on Jun 28, 2008 12:48 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i agree

even though that is still a small starting backcourt of rose and bg, i like the possibilities… for some games though, i would bring in thabo to start. thats just me
I would love the three man rotation of rose, bg and thabo for years to come

I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE

by CONOR6 on Jun 27, 2008 12:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree, too.

If Thabo can increase his offensive efficiency and Gordon can become a serviceable defender (both things I think are possible), I’m happy to split the 96 minutes between the three of them. It’s up to the coach to know when to play whom.

by tyger1147 on Jun 27, 2008 12:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I like this rotation

Thabo showed some offence lately in the season,hes gonna run like a deer with Pooh.
I still can’t forget how he shut down Wade in that series.

"YES,WE CAN!"-B.OBAMA.

by Azabullsfan on Jun 27, 2008 2:18 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

One thing is clear from the Mully & Hanley interview:

Pax reads his press clippings.

He said he knows he’s been hammered for saying they’ll be patient with Rose’ development.

He revised that to say that he hopes Rose takes off right from the get-go, but they want to provide an environment in which he can develop the best way possible.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 27, 2008 11:01 AM CDT   0 recs

I just don't understand his reluctance

to be excited and ambitious about this pick. Is he THAT hurt by the ‘expectations’ ruining last season?

management sez: recommend fanposts/fanshots/comments! Click 'reply' when replying to a comment! Flag jerkfaces!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 27, 2008 11:05 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's a pre-emptive strike against those that will bash him if they fail to win 40 games.

“I saaiiidddd, ‘BE PATIENT!!!”

C’mon season-ticket holders, come watch the kids grow.

by tyger1147 on Jun 27, 2008 11:09 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't know

He sounded sort of in love with Derrick to me.

by KT on Jun 27, 2008 11:10 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

maybe that's just what Paxson sounds like

when he’s in love.

Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky

by alec on Jun 27, 2008 11:11 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Why place any unnecessary pressure on Rose?

Why say anything aside from what Pax has been saying so far about letting Rose grow at his pace? That pace could be immediate, which is what I really believe Pax is hoping for and expecting, but why communicate that to a 19 year old playing in his home city where everyone else will already be telling him that? It’s just psychology, in my opinion, and I agree with it.

by messwiththebull on Jun 27, 2008 12:17 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Kirk?

I hope he doesn’t wait too long to find a great situation(Trade) for Kirk. At this point, even if it’s just a salary dump.

by exult463 on Jun 27, 2008 1:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Rose is going to throw the first pitch today at the Cubs-Sox game

Paxson will be in attendance, if anyone goes get really drunk and ask him to trade Noce for Mo Sene.

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 27, 2008 11:28 AM CDT   0 recs