Having character vs. being a character
Sam Smith had this anecdote in his Celtics championship epilogue, which his his eyes told about the effect the team leader, Kevin Garnett, had on the rest of the roster:
They did it with defense, obviously, but also commitment and tactics.
We all knew they’d be good after trading for Allen and Garnett, but they still were starting two non scorers in Rajon Rondo and Kendrick Perkins. It had to be more than scoring, and it was. And it had to be more effort than they knew, and it was.
One instance in preseason stands out.
The Celtics were running suicides, those halfcourt sprints after practice, and not surprisingly Garnett was beating everyone.
It’s why Garnett, though not the offensive finisher to carry a team and a player who does not dominate from the post despite his size, was the key because if your best player practices the hardest, it’s difficult for anyone else to coast.
Still, Pierce has often been known to ease through seasons and particularly practices, not always the most motivated team player. He fought openly with Rivers when Rivers came in with demands Pierce expand his game and be more unselfish. Little progressed because the team was so bad and lacking in talent Pierce had license to continue to shoot and score.
Now flip to 2007.
Pierce was jogging through the drill in his L.A. cool mood and Garnett turned angrily and demanded, “Are you going to run with me!”
No one ever had challenged Pierce like that in Boston, and certainly no great player.
Message received and understood.
It's a bit romantic, and for all I know completely made up. But I think it does contain an important message.
I've usually mocked Paxson for his 'character first' mantra, and even moreso when it was proven to be more than rhetoric. And then even more-moreso when it was shown that his 'character guys' didn't prove to have much of it.
Needless to say, I think it's mostly hooey. At least in the way it's usually (over) applied.
Talent wins. It won for the Celtics. But there's plenty of 'superstar' talent in the league that doesn't give the kind of effort that the Celtics did, and I don't think it's far fetched to realize there are great players who aren't the type to, like Garnett, not only practice hard but demand a teammate practices as hard as he does.
Which is why I think the character 'hooey' matters when discussing a #1 overall pick, because it's the opportunity to draft the caliber of player who will be the best player on the team. The pick will be a rookie, so it may be too much to expect them to take the reigns right away. But then again, this roster also seems like they're desperate for someone to set that tone, no matter his age. (plus, school-marms Wallace and Griffin are gone).
That's why this Beasley 'personality' issue is a huge red flag with me. The stories are usually downplayed, and it's rarely gone so far to say it'll keep him from being a great player himself. But there's enough to worry the heck out of me. Even if he has the motivation to commit to the work, will he be the type to drag others with him?
This isn't like debating whether to keep Nocioni or not for his hustle and heart.
With Beasley and Rose, this question should be a dealbreaking issue.
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302 comments
Comments
here's the thing
only one of those links was about Beasley’s practice habits and I’m really not going to put much stock into his observations of a work out. I haven’t heard anything from experts saying that Beasley doesn’t practice hard. And if you’re going to reference Beasley being “Looney Tunes” then you shouldn’t be comparing him negatively against Garnett who I’m pretty sure coud be considerred legally insane.
by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 10:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah but it's not looney tunes
in Garnett’s case it’s ‘300’.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 23, 2008 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i also would have accepted 'taxi driver'
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 23, 2008 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The subject of this thread should be...
... Having talent (i.e Rose/OJ Mayo/DJ Augustin/Eric Gordon) Vs being the best talent in the ‘08 Draft (i.e Michael Beasley)
The No 1 Chi -Town sports fan in Europe!
by Vangelis on Jun 24, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's if you wrote it
I’m not conceding that Beasley has more talent.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But KG, Kobe, MJ are all legally insane in the right way (basketball-wise)
You want the leader of your team to be the guy who works harder than anyone because he knows that all the pressure is on him. The reason we all love Jordan is because he knew from Day 1 that the entire team was going to follow his lead, and he went out and worked harder on his game than any other player.
The problem is, Beasley can be a goofy guy but an absolute monster in practice, we just don’t know it. Dennis Rodman was as legally insane you can get in Chicago, but this was a guy who worked out in the Chicago summers after practicing at the Berto Center. It’s why the team put up with his attention-whoreism. We know Rose is in that mold. I would draft Beasley, but I just don’t know if he’s that guy. I would hate to see this once in a million chance to get a star that didn’t take the game too seriously. Yes, I understand he’s just a kid, but once he’s in the NBA that excuse is void. Chris Paul went to a shitty franchise with no fanbase, and in 3 years helped transform then into a sentimental favorite with legit championship aspirations. That’s understanding what kind of pressure is put on you as a rookie with superstar potential, and that’s what I wish I could definitely see in Beasley. Maybe we just have to see him in a Bulls uniform for it to matriculate.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 23, 2008 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
remind me
how do we know Rose is in that mold?
by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I didn't mean to say Rose was in that kind of uber-competitive mode
What I meant to say is that Rose’s competitiveness just comes off as more apparent. Things like work ethic and drive are things that are built out of legend and hearsay, and Rose has apparently gotten enough cred since high school to be given this kind of “ultimate leader” tag. From all accounts he was the leader of one of the best college teams in the country.
I’m on neither side in this debate. Both players offer skill sets that are needed by the Bulls, and this damn intangible stuff is really the sticking point. From what I see and hear about both players, I tend to think Rose is mature as of now to take on the responsibility of bringing a NBA team back to prominence. I don’t see that manifesting in Beasley.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 23, 2008 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They said they had to lock Rose out of the gym....
now if dat isnt work ethic i dont know what is
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on Jun 24, 2008 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we don't know
but I’m guessing the Bulls know. starting with how aggressively he peruses the dinner menu.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 23, 2008 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he buttered his bread in a manner that almost forced pax and vdn to follow suit. when they were slow to do so, he turned to them and said, "are you gonna butter this bread with me?"
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 23, 2008 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know how much stock
you can put on Garnett’s motivation to his teammates. But there is something to be said about your best player always putting in his best effort. We have many documented years of watching Pierce and Ray Allen not committing to defense. That they should both decide to turn their habits around in the same year as they are teamed with KG seems a bit too coincidental. I think that Rodman is another example of someone being held in check for the most part with Jordon on court.
The young bulls do hustle. It showed from the start (even as I saw them lose the first 9 games 4 years ago) 3 years is not a fluke. Last year held a lot of issues for this young team. I think it foolish to believe that they no longer have the same (or better) skills coming into next year. Adding another motivated AND frankly higher skilled player to the mix who not only works to make his team better, but can actually deliver (yes Rose) only means that this team will get back deep into the playoffs again.
Having said that and having watched the Celtics championship run this year, I don’t feel that our young bigs are strong enough/skilled enough just yet to keep up with the top defensive teams in a 7 game series. But I think with an inspirational top pick in Rose, we get this team (in particular Tyrus and Noah) into a more cohesive and effective group then we have yet seen.
Beasley just doesn’t seem like a team player to me. I don’t need another Ben Wallace attitude in the group holding this organization hostage because of his superior skills.
Rose may not be that outspoken (and I think that bodes well with our core of deng gordan and hinrich) but he has not shown himself to be a distraction either.
Winning solves a lot of issues. With a top athlete joining our already very good squad, I can’t help but see a very successful year for the bulls.
by gman2849 on Jun 23, 2008 11:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
matt, i'd like to petition for immediate banishment for the misspelling of JORDAN.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 23, 2008 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm more offended when people spell 'gordan'
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nothing personal, guy, but this is egregiously unacceptable.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 23, 2008 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nothing personal, but ...
... most people can’t spell egregiously.
Rose '08
by Orange Juice on Jun 24, 2008 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but when tommy egregiously is the best player in the history of the sport of basketball, and spent almost the entirety of his career playing for the team this blog is dedicated to
then i’ll expect everyone to spell it right. in the meantime, i’ll enjoy being amongst those who can.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 24, 2008 1:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't recall the last time I read "Ben Wallace" and "superior skills" in the same sentence,
unless the words “does not have” were in between.
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
by wjb1492 on Jun 23, 2008 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I googled the query and though those exact words have never been typed in before...
Hoopshype did laud “Ben’s superior judgment and quickness” as one of the reason’s they believed He deserved the MVP award in 2005. (I know, this post is as off-topic as that statement is mind-blurring.)
by smash! on Jun 24, 2008 1:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
unclarified point to be sure
only meant to compare the corpse’ attitude.
by gman2849 on Jun 24, 2008 1:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't question Beasley's work ethic or commitment at all
I think the guy is a beast when it comes to working on his game. I don’t doubt that he wants to and intends to dominate. He wants to be great and because of that, he will be. I don’t doubt that he is a franchise player. He’s just one goofy bastard. You don’t quite know what to expect from him, and in some ways I guess he’s Noah-ish, and we’ve already had some run-ins with Joakim. But I think Beasley would be a capable leader on the court, I think he’ll be a team guy, and I fully expect him to be a 20 and 10 guy next year, depending on the situation, he could be a 23-24 PPG guy as a rookie. His game just looks so effortless. I expect this guy to be great, probably dominant. But.
Rose just screams “CHAMPIONSHIP!” Yes, he didn’t win last year, but damn did he get as close as you can get. He seems like the consummate pro, the guy you can see why Riley would love, hell, why DeNiro in Heat would love. He’s triple C, gives you every impression of greatness in the making by his demeanor, you notice his presence. He seems to have some of what we saw in Mike.
I’d love to have both these guys but you can only have one and it’s Rose because there are no question marks. He is close to as good as it gets for a #1. He’s a winner, he’s an outstanding athlete, he’s been a good kid, and he is physically dominating for his position. He’s not quite a LeBron #1 but I’d say he’s clearly a Dwight Howard #1.
by messwiththebull on Jun 23, 2008 11:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My biggest red flag with Beasley is that he sees himself as
a Carmelo Anthony. I know he wants to and dominate on offense. A burning desire to score rarely translates to winning, especially if it isn’t accompanied by a similar desire to dominate on defense. I’m looking for a player that has a desire to dominate on defense and is willing to sacrifice on offense, stepping up to score when needed. I believe the great championship winning stars have done this. I don’t know if that’s Rose. But, there have at least been signs that Rose could be a\that kind of player. He clearly sacrificed his own game for the team and was there for his team in the big games. He at least talks about defense and worked to improve defensively last season even though he isn’t a great defender by any means right now.
I haven’t seen any evidence that Beasley wants to dominate on defense or sacrifice on offense. He may want to dominate on defense, but he doesn’t talk about it. He may be willing to sacrifice on offense with better teammates, but it’s an unknown. It’s much easier for me to place faith in Rose’s desire to dominate on defense and sacrifice on offense.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 23, 2008 11:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He said his game,
meaning skill set, is similar to Carmelo. Carmelo was never mistaken for a defender, even in college. Beasley plays passionate defense. He blocks shots, causes deflections, and gets steals. Unfortunately he can get in foul trouble due to his aggresiveness and therefore K-State tried to keep him out of situations where he’d draw more fouls.
So he doesn’t have the ‘statistics’ that say he’s a good defensive player, but he plays aggressive defense unless he’s in foul trouble. Watch the games. Understand situations. Then evaluate.
by kingj41 on Jun 24, 2008 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nah, I'd rather not
but I listened to someone who did do that, and he said Beasley gets lost frequently on D.
I don’t think that physically he can be a great defender, either….maybe that’ll mean just more fouling. (hey, the Jazz should take him)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Physically?
He’s got all the physical skills. Like most young players he relies too much on his athleticism on D because he’s confident he can block shots he contests and get the steals he goes for. He does need some coaching in that area.
However, he will get there sooner than later regarding that aspect of his game. He’s got the strength, athleticism and desire to improve in all aspects.
True, he’s not 6’-10” like he’s been listed. And no he won’t shut down KG, D. Howard, nor Tim Duncan. But, who can 1-on-1.
by kingj41 on Jun 24, 2008 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree on the coaching
Beasley isn’t showing me signs that he cannot learn and adapt. He’s been asked to get points most of this life and that’s exactly what he’s done.
I see plenty of room for improvement on defense. I’m just not seeing this passion right now. It will come with proper coaching and methods.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
eek, passionate defense?
He plays defense, but there is little chance any of it is driven by passion.
Beasley plays proximity defense where as he plays it when the play is coming at him. He doesn’t force anything on defense the way Garnett, Pippen, and Gary Payton do/did.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've posted this elsewhere
But the single most disturbing thing about Beasley’s attitude/character, by far, is his continued insistence that he’s never done anything wrong. He remains completely unwilling to acknowledge prior mistakes, and I can’t explain in words how much this bothers me, and how much I believe it speaks to his personal character.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jun 23, 2008 11:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah, that's a good point. i'd say in some ways, that is the definition of immaturity.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 23, 2008 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
or the definition of a lawyer
what i really would like to hear is WHY he did those immature things…I could care less about the dead frog, but the property damage with cars is more serious. Did he plaster his name all over the car when tagging, or did he do it small, did he have to pay for a new paintjob, did a “friend” tag HIS name and he covered for it by taking the blame?
It’s smart not to say TOO much about past deeds in public, but I’m assuming he spilled his guts to Paxson with the details being confidential. It’s not like he WENT TO JAIL and/or STOLE LAPTOPS IN COLLEGE (like marcus williams).
On the other hand, we’ve all had one or two big A-hole teachers or principals in our lives…but most of us have the sense to just leave the fools alone.
by KentuckyBullsFan on Jun 24, 2008 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think he was referencing the dead rat in his teacher's desk prank.
by AFireInside661 on Jun 24, 2008 3:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's like the opposite of the "I caught a fish this big!"
Soon the rat frog will turn into a fly.
by smash! on Jun 25, 2008 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has publicly said he's made mistakes.
I don’t know where you get this thing that he insists he’s done nothing wrong. What he’s said is that he’s a kid and he screws up. If that’s not contrite enough for you, that’s one thing. But it’s not the same at all as claiming he’s never done anything wrong.
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
by wjb1492 on Jun 23, 2008 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please provide a specific link
And upon reading the quotes, if this is the case, I will recant.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jun 23, 2008 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Might not happen for a couple of days - I'm on vacation!
:)
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jun 23, 2008 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have a great vacation - I'm jealous.
“I just turned 19 years old in January,” Beasley said. “How mature do you want me to be? I’m still a kid. I’m not 20 yet. I’m not legal. I can vote, but that’s about it. On the basketball side of things, I’m 30 years old. Off the court, I don’t know how old y’all want me to be. Do you want me to act 25? 30? 40?. I’m 19. I’m a kid. I’m going to live my life. I’m going to mess up. I don’t know as much as you do or him. I’m learning day by day. I hear a lot about character issues. But I’ve yet to hear what those character issues are. Until I hear somebody tell me, I don’t feel the need to change.”When a Chicago reporter asked what influence his mother has had on him, what advice she’s given him about maturity and growing up, Beasley quickly turned the question around and tossed it back.
“Life lessons,” he shot back, defensively. “The same kind of lessons your mother taught you. I got into trouble. But I don’t do those things anymore. You learn a lot as you grow.”
From the Miami Herald
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
by wjb1492 on Jun 24, 2008 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's not exactly
repentance.
I wonder if Pax ever said: “yes. I want you to act 40.”
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said it might not be contrite enough for some people
But it’s also not Jivas’ statement (bolded as well) of
his continued insistence that he’s never done anything wrong. He remains completely unwilling to acknowledge prior mistakes
I get that you’ve decided the “character issues” push him off your list, Matt. But if that’s going to be the deal breaker for people, they should at least base it on what has actually happened and what he has actually said rather than exaggerations.
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
by wjb1492 on Jun 24, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
speaking of exaggerations...
I’ve also read accounts of the famous rat-in-desk incident that have been reported as a mouse-in-desk. Interesting how much less sinister the story is with a cute little mousey.
Seeing as the teacher him/herself has not appeared in any interviews, it’s pretty hard to say what the real story is.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 24, 2008 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you put a dead mouse in your co-workers desk...
You’d probably be escorted from the building by law enforcement. I don’t care how cute it is.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Jun 25, 2008 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed.
‘completely unwilling’ is a bit harsh.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, I'm back
And that doesn’t do it for me, at all (I read those quotes when they were intially reported as well). Not even close – in fact, these comments only strengthen my belief that Beasley remains highly immature and that he just doesn’t “get it”. We can certainly agree to disagree on this – reasonable people do in fact see things differently at times.
I totally get that Beasley isn’t a felon, and hasn’t committed any really serious offenses in his time, but all this does is eliminate the risk that he’s Pac-Man Jones. But how many players really come into the draft with that kind of risk? Off the top of my head, Isaiah/J.R. Rider comes to mind, but this is a truly insignificant risk.
But the point that myself and others have tried to make in many of these threads is that Beasley’s immaturity/character issues do not lend itself to being a winning-type player. I’m not going to rehash any of those arguments – see my comments on other threads and Scotter’s points above – but I do believe that this risk remains as a significant aspect of the evaluation of Beasley.
But MAN he’s talented! I’m still leaning to Rose, probably 55-45 after starting 51-49 and being pushed to 70-30, but this is not an easy choice by any means and not one that I’d be completely satisfied with. What I am COMPLETELY satisfied and ecstatic about is that we’re far better off than we were with the 9th pick. That is something we can all agree above.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jun 24, 2008 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, this would explain
the old-as-dirt fetish. “C’mon, act 40 out there…! Noah, Tyrus, out! Wallace, Griffin, go show them how it’s done…”
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 24, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
as we keep trying to guess what paxson is thinking...
i can’t help thinking that paxson will take rose for all of the reasons we expect.
1. great college team.
2. great college program.
3. highly regarded college coach.
4. led a team that went deep into the ncaa tourney.
i feel like it is very hard to choose between beasley and rose. they both have a ton of upside. they both are incredible talents. they both have question marks…so, when paxson looks at all the information and realizes that you probably can’t go wrong with either one, he’ll fall back on these points and feel more confident taking rose.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 23, 2008 11:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Ford muddying the Rose waters
Think you’ve got the Rose-Beasley debate figured out? One respected NBA general manager who’s drafting in the second half of the first round said the Bulls and virtually everyone else is getting it wrong.
“Michael Beasley is far and away the best player in this draft,” the GM said. “He’s going to dominate in this league. How could you pass on him? I know everyone is talking about character this and character that, but come on, he’s not a bad kid.”As for Rose, the GM says he thinks he’s overrated: “Derrick Rose is a good player, I get that. But he’s not a franchise player. I don’t think people are getting with Rose what they think they’re getting. He’s athletic and plays really hard. But he has just decent court vision and can’t take over a game offensively.”
When asked about the Heat possibly passing on Beasley at No. 2, the GM said, “It’s a joke. He’s so much better than anything the Heat are going to get offered. I don’t understand it.”
The rest of this article is currently under the ESPN Insider free preview by the by.
This is one of those moments when I don’t envy the decision Paxson et al. has to make this week. We’ll see in a couple days I guess…
by micah on Jun 23, 2008 11:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I would really love to see that anonymous source turn out to be Denver's GM
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 23, 2008 11:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that wouldn't be 'respected' :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Riley could be trying to:
1. Psyche Paxdorf out
2. Riley wants to signal publicly “make me an offer” for either the #2 or for Marion to other teams
3. Disney(owns ESPN and Orlando Magic) wants Beasley in the state of florida as an additional tourist attraction and/or rivalry with Miami.
2 definitely, 1 possibly, 3 is a stretch
by KentuckyBullsFan on Jun 24, 2008 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or, 4...
What the scout is sayin is true and mostly everybody on this site is blind to the truth.
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 24, 2008 12:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I meant by "1. Psyche Paxdorf out"
is that Riley may really want Beasley, but publicly says he wants Rose because he’s just playing with Paxdorf.
I never really understood why a DRose would pair so much better with Wade than Beasley.
by KentuckyBullsFan on Jun 24, 2008 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is so much speculation about the Heat trading down in the draft.
More recent: http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/insider/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=Draftnotes-080624
It seems incredibly unlikely that Riley is jockeying for Beasley. With this much trade speculation, I have a hard time believing that Riley wanted Beasley all along.
by swede2287 on Jun 24, 2008 1:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, someone was convinced
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop with the "Riley is trying to psyche Pax out" talk.
The Bulls have the first pick in the draft. Period. How do you psyche someone out if you’re completely irrelevant to them? Ya can’t. It doesn’t matter what Riley thinks, says, does. Paxson isn’t thinking about Riley’s, or any other team’s, supposed fav prospect. He’s focused on the top 2, and who he wants out of those 2 because that’s what happens when you pick #1- you get to choose whoever you want, irrelevant of what anyone else thinks/wants/desires.
As for your #2- that’s not how that works. If a GM wants to talk trade, they use the phone. And after reading #3 above I’m really questioning why I’m even responding to #1 & #2 because that’s just crazy talk:)
by smash! on Jun 24, 2008 1:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"If a GM want to talk trade, they use the phone"
And more GMs are willing to pick up that phone and call Riley with his public announcement of “make me an offer” for the #2 and/or Marion. Like the rumors involving Elton Brand which would make sense for both teams if Brand is healthy.
by KentuckyBullsFan on Jun 24, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
it’s likely Riley. That Snake!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disney owns the Magic?
I thought Pat Williams owned the Magic.
Wikipedia says this group owns the Magic.
Careful though, across the pond our good friends are blaming Wikipedia for students’ inaccuracies in studies.
Jimmy Wales you bastard.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I recall Pat Williams selling the Magic
to a group of other owners, so wikipedia for the moment may be correct.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 24, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
whoops..I guess Disney doesn’t on it then, and if its not Pat Williams, then I have no idea
by KentuckyBullsFan on Jun 24, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like Pat
is just an Executive VP for the Magic, but not an owner or the GM. He may own a portion of the Magic parent company with DeVos.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's Dumars
by way of the GM that speaks to Ford so frequently.
Could be someone trying to sully Kevin Pritchard’s options in Portland though.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe that we should all recognize
That this opinion is a completely legitimate one. I’m not saying that it’s the only one or that it’s the right one – or even one that I agree with – but it’s completely legitimate to have this opinion of each player.
This is, in fact, what I fear and why my Rose preference is a light one. The scenario laid out by this GM is one of the many possibilities for the way the future will turn out with respect to these players.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jun 24, 2008 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weird Question: WHAT ABOUT STEROIDS?
Like the rumors about Boozer going from a soft player to screaming All-Star level (Bill Simmons article). Do clubs factor this stuff in, but name it “character.” Or Looney Tunes?
I know the major sports test for Roids, but does the NBA test for Roids during the off-seasons? Or, say, before the Draft ??? We know that Beasley gained like 20 pounds of muscle from high school to college, but that’s probably not too unusual for a player his size…what is strange is a player of his caliber playing for K-State instead of a top 10 program. Top 10 probably passed on him considering what happened at Oak Hil.
/Bill Simmons is annoying at times, but he does watch a lot of college and pro hoops, so I’m curious as to what he’ll say about the draft this week
by KentuckyBullsFan on Jun 23, 2008 11:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
K-State hired his AAU coach as an assistant
That was pretty much the only reason he went to Kansas State. Beasley was recruited by virtually every major program in the country, so his antics apparently weren’t enough to scare anyone off.
by Big D on Jun 24, 2008 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being the most highly recruited high school basketball star does not necessarily mean
he should be drafted number one overall.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 24, 2008 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Simmons watches almost no college hoops
He’s just like any of us. He watches occasional games and watches the tourney because he makes a bracket and gambles, he’s just getting paid to broadcast his opinions.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I don't think most colleges care if the player is of questionable integrity
The whole NCAA recruiting process is just so sleazy, the coaches are no better than the “bad seeds” they recruit.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The NBA drug testing
Is pretty weak and predictable – it’s easy for everyone not named Chris Andersen to take their drug of choice and evade detection.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jun 24, 2008 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, so character matters,,,
only when it backs whatever argument you’re trying to make at the time. Just cause Derrick Rose is a nice, soft-spoken kid, why is everyone just assuming that he’s gonna have the neccessary drive to be a great, winning player? He could just as easily be soft and not up to the challenge and flame out after a few seasons, meanwhile Beasley could turn into a funny, flamboyant, dominating, superstar with a chip on his shoulder. These kids are 19 frickin years old and I find this post totally unneccessary because all this character talk is crap, nobody knows how these guys will react when the bright lights are shining on them. All of this pop-psychology talk is lame. And everyone that keeps talking about Rose being a winner at every level is lame too. Chances are if you’re a top 5 pick in the NBA you’ve been a winner your whole life. Just cause one guy has a better team and wins a few more games in a tournament doesn’t say jack about who will be better in the long run.
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 24, 2008 12:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Please stop with this "Golly gee they're kids" argument
They aren’t normal 19 year olds, they’ve been heralded as future NBA superstars since they were freaking 14, and garnering national press coverage in high school. They spent a year in the NCAA meat market, they aren’t naive souls who have no idea what the world is like. Beasley knows that his antics cause concerns, he’s unapologetic about it. Why not just make everyone happy and say “I’m sorry I was immature before” No one is teling him to stop having fun, but the guy who the team is potentially trying to invest millions of dollars and hundreds of hours of development can’t even admit his high school pranks were childish?
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 12:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know they're not kids
in that sense. But they are definately kids as far as being a proffessional basketball player goes and you have no clue what they’re personality will be like in 3 or for years.
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 24, 2008 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's what bothers me and a lot of people about Beasley's character:
Beasley has been carefree, joking and not at all serious during many of the team interviews that we’ve seen him have in this draft process. Is that not strange? If you are being interviewed for a potential job, wouldn’t you want to be serious and present yourself? Especially when the team is considering millions of dollars and much of their future in you. I still find that so strange…and foolish of Beasley.
And it can’t be all chalked up to his personality. Look at KG – the guy’s definitely got a personality. But if you ask him any question about basketball/winning/work ethic, he will give a straight, serious answer. Beasley is 19. But he seems unaware of the weight of his current situation and the countless people it affects.
"I just turned 19 years old in January," Beasley said. "How mature do you want me to be? I’m still a kid. I’m not 20 yet. I’m not legal. I can vote, but that’s about it. On the basketball side of things, I’m 30 years old. Off the court, I don’t know how old y’all want me to be. Do you want me to act 25? 30? 40?. I’m 19. I’m a kid. I’m going to live my life. I’m going to mess up. I don’t know as much as you do or him. I’m learning day by day. I hear a lot about character issues. But I’ve yet to hear what those character issues are. Until I hear somebody tell me, I don’t feel the need to change."
That is a very immature response to people questioning his character. I would have loved to hear him simply say, “I did make some mistakes in high school. I learned through them and they have helped mold me into the person that I am today.” His response is a red flag to me – it wouldn’t shock me to see character issues spring up in the future. There is not one red flag, regarding character, that I’ve seen regarding Rose.
Beasley is a future superstar player.
Will he ever be the intense, hard-working player that spurns his player to work harder? This immaturity wouldn’t make us believe so.
Rose has a nearly spotless reputation, no noticeable character issues, and has been professional throughout this whole process.
This is a huge investment and I do believe that hard work/character is what shapes the best players and leaders in the NBA. No one comes into this league, regardless of skill, and can lead a championship team without those inherent qualities. And all signs point to Rose having those qualities; it’s less obvious with Beasley. If you value this hard work/character in a player, then Rose is the wise choice.
by swede2287 on Jun 24, 2008 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guarantee that if the Bulls had the second pick and the Heat took Rose,
you and everyone else on here would be talking about how refreshing his personality is, just like everyone did with Noah last year. To me Beasley’s interviews have been great. He’s been honest, funny, candid whereas Rose had the personality of a tennis shoe. Rose looked as though he had been brainwashed! The bottom line is Rose is a flashier, more exciting looking player, from here and people are just searching for reasons not to like Beasley.
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 24, 2008 1:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not searching for reasons not to like Beasley.
Read ESPN, SI, Blogabull. Maturity and character issues are the big question marks with Beasley.
We probably do value those inherent qualities differently – I believe there hugely important for a player that will lead your franchise for years.
I liked Rose in the interviews – keep in mind he was more or less in a job interview.
by swede2287 on Jun 24, 2008 1:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but then
you have to read what he did to get labeled with those “character issues” and you’ll see that it was really nothing at all. Just a few high school pranks from a guy that just seemed to lack a little guidance growing up. Now all of a sudden he’s Jeffrey Dahmer.
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 24, 2008 2:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think the pranks in themselves were a big deal...
I didn’t like the way he answered questions about his past mistakes. I didn’t like his overall level of maturity and seriousness with how he answered questions in interviews, and carried himself at workouts.
by swede2287 on Jun 24, 2008 2:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
u didnt think the pranks were a big deal...
he probably didnt either, and therefore didnt feel the need to answer the questions about his “past mistakes” (which u just said were no big deal) seriously
by kite on Jun 24, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree entirely
If the Bulls were picking second and the Heat took Rose – everyone on here would be happy to take Beasley IN SPITE OF his known character red flags.
I don’t have to search for reasons not to like Beasley, because he wears them on his sleeve – his immaturity and his height. Oh, and he’s never even been part of a championship team. Reasons enough.
by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 24, 2008 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we had the 2nd pick in this draft
I’d be ECSTATIC to end up with Beasley but I’d have the same concerns about his maturity and character (as described above and elsewhere ad nauseum).
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jun 24, 2008 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don't know what he said to Paxson
For all we know, he could have said exactly what you wanted him to say. Maybe he doesn’t like having a bunch of strangers sticking microphones and cameras in his face and asking him if he has “character issues.” Quite frankly, I don’t give a shit what he says to the media.
by Big D on Jun 24, 2008 3:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on the microphone
One held by a hand? Meh.
One held by an ipod? Oooh, piece of candy
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somewhat agree
It’s very tough for GMs to get a handle on a player’s true character (see: Williams, Jay) and even tougher for the general public to do so. Both of these kids seem pretty nice, and although Beasley attended five high schools, Durant attended four high schools and is by all accounts a “character guy”. That said, I’m still for Rose. I see them at similar levels in terms of potential, and surprising as it is to say it, the Bulls’ bigger need is in the backcourt. Yes, they have a lot of guards, but Ben Gordon is the only one that’s above average. Meanwhile the TT-Noah-Gooden troika was surprisingly solid last year (on a per-minute basis, of course. Goddamn Boylan.) Given the Bulls’ current configuration, I think adding an elite prospect in the backcourt makes the team better than adding an elite prospect in the frontcourt – given that the prospects are of near-equal quality (which I believe they are).
by Petor on Jun 24, 2008 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
IMO things are simple...
We need to draft Beasley because he is the best player in the draft. I am not buying this “character issues” nonsense. The guy is 19 years old for Christ’s sake, 19! He is not a criminal, he is being accused of being a teenager.
Pax should grow some balls and draft the NBA’s dominant force (together with LeBron) for the next 10 years and not do the safe thing once again i.e draft the college “nice” kid with the hard work ethic. We have already paid dearly for Pax’s indecisiveness on a number of occasions (KG, Pau etc.).
A lot will depend on how the Bulls organisation molds and develops Beasley. He brings the raw talent and VDN & Pax have to direct him. They should not shy away from doing their jobs by drafting the player that will give them the less hassle, that’s called cowardice NOT management.
The No 1 Chi -Town sports fan in Europe!
by Vangelis on Jun 24, 2008 1:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I would prefer for a #1 pick to be a future leader of the team...
not just bring the raw talent.
Any organization would be foolish to invest heavily in someone who didn’t fit the company’s personality and culture…and you can look at Pax and our front office and see the culture they have implemented. Hate it or love it. That’s why all signs point to them picking the player who displays hard work, character, professionalism aka Rose.
by swede2287 on Jun 24, 2008 1:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So let's just take Kevin Love than!
Right? By all accounts he’s the hardest working player, with great leadership qualities and a real winning pedigree.
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 24, 2008 1:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how so?
he’s a fatty.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Bulls culture
is a scrappy team that may or may not make the playoffs year to year depending on whether they give 100%.
If the goal is to win a championship maybe the culture needs to shift a bit to get the most talented players available and then motivate them to give 100%.
The key part of KG motivating Pierce is that PP is a top 10 NBA talent. The Bulls do not have that type of talent anywhere on the roster and so we are stuck being the “little team that could” by getting good character players from successful programs.
by bullschwaa on Jun 24, 2008 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clarify?
Pax should grow some balls and draft the NBAs dominant force…and not do the safe thing once again i.e draft the college "nice" kid with the hard work ethic.
Paxson’s last 2 draft picks, Tyrus and Noah, weren’t in the mold of the college “nice” kid with the hard work ethic. JamesOn Curry (and his trouble with the law) was not of that mold. Even Ben Gordon had an episode in college where he got into an altercation with a girl and she pressed charges; That caused people to talk and rumors to swirl when he was coming out. Aaron Gray has never been known for his work ethic. So I guess you’re talking about Luol & Kirk, 2 of his first 3 draft choices that were both taken at the 7 spot? That argument only makes me more inclined to pick Rose.
Also, did he ever pass up the opportunity to draft a dominant force before? I don’t think so…
by smash! on Jun 24, 2008 2:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong.
When Paxson drafted Tyrus, Noah and Ben, he slapped the “winning player” label on them after they were drafted. Ben and Noah were both coming off championship seasons and although Noah was a bigger personality, he was suppoed to have a great work ethic. So I would say that roughly every one of his picks you could fit under that label of “nice kid”, “good work ethic”. And we should not even be mentioning Aaron Gray and Jameson Curry, because who the hell really cares what happens in the second round anyway?
by Juiceboxjerry on Jun 24, 2008 2:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so if you played on a championship team...
you automatically are a “nice kid” with “good work ethic.”
You’re right…carmelo fits right in that mold.
by swede2287 on Jun 24, 2008 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you're wrong.
I was commenting on how you’re begging Paxson to grow a pair and take a risk on a player that’s not a saint. And then I completely disproved the notion that Paxson never takes so-called risks on people because he has more so than not. (And no, Noah was never known for his work ethic. He hustles on the court, but that’s different. And Tyrus was not known for his work ethic and he was not classified as a good kid, etc. And 2nd rounders do matter because why the hell not? It continues to show that he’s not afraid to takes risks, albeit less $ risky ones in the 2nd round) So I’m saying, I don’t think Beasley’s discretions will prevent him from being drafted by the Bulls just because Paxson “doesn’t take chances.” He does and he would if he felt compelled. That’s all I’m saying.
PS- After you draft a player and you’re at a press conf and people are asking you to tell them about how great they are, you generally don’t say “Well, we like him because his college team sucked and he’s a big fat loser.” But I won’t mind at all when Paxson creates deja vu by calling Rose a winner when he drafts him Thursday:)
by smash! on Jun 24, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not just the draft picks...
Nocioni, PJ Brown, Joe Smith, Ben Wallace and then Chris Duhon, Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon etc.
Pax’s philosophy is going for maximum effort players/hard workers. That is fine with me but it is clear that he also needs to surroun them with SOME talent.
This is his chance. Beasley surrounded by all this hustle will be awesome. It will be a mistake to go and draft the same kind of player again…
The No 1 Chi -Town sports fan in Europe!
by Vangelis on Jun 24, 2008 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I keep reading this post and I don't know what you're arguing actually.
What’s your point? That drafting someone to fill the superstar void is the next step? Yeah. And you’re saying it’s Beasley, and I’m saying I prefer Rose, ok. Diff of opinion but fine. Is there anything else I’m missing?
by smash! on Jun 24, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am arguing that we need...
... a superstar scorer (i. Beasley) rather than a superstar PG. May I remind you that this year’s NBA finalists got there with Rondo & Fisher as PGs (i.e not superstar PGs). They did however have superstar scorers (i. Paul Pierce & Kobe). The argument is that team with a big-time scorer and an average PG can dominate, whereas a team with a superstar PG but without a big-time scorer (e.g. Hornets & Jazz) has no chance to win the League.
The No 1 Chi -Town sports fan in Europe!
by Vangelis on Jun 24, 2008 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that
the Hornets pushed the Spurs to 7 and the Jazz went 6 with the Lakers.
And he’s not gonna score like Pierce and Kobe, because he can’t create off the dribble like those two. He’s gonna score, yes, but it is not gonna be in one on one perimeter situations.
by CrashDavis on Jun 24, 2008 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but unless the Hornets/Jazz get a legit big time scorer...
they will not win. I don’t know about you, but I want to win the Chip, I don’t want to be going out in the 2nd round of the playoffs (irrespective of whether it’s in 6 or 7 games).
The No 1 Chi -Town sports fan in Europe!
by Vangelis on Jun 25, 2008 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I don't know about you but...
I think it’s insane to cap Paul and Williams after three years as “guys who won’t win championships without Kobe or Pierce-like scorers.”
How many “chips” did Pierce win before this year, how many 2nd rounds did he even get to? What about the Bean? After Shaq left LA? Didn’t he get eliminated in the 1st and 2nd rounds by a Nash lead Suns team?
by CrashDavis on Jun 25, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you're implying that you need a top 5 scorer to win a title?
Because Boozer and West just had near 20/10 seasons with tons of big games scattered throughout the season. Both teams have excellent perimeter options in Okur and Peja that are also capable of going off for big games.
Melo is a big time scorer, but you replace Boozer or West with him, I doubt they win that many more games or playoff series. McGrady is also a big time scorer, and he hasn’t even won a playoff series. There are way more factors than just having a player who can average over 25 ppg to win a title.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 25, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's a bit much, no?
the most dominant player, along with LeBron, for the next 10 years? I don’t think even the biggest Beasley fans believe that.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"We need to draft Beasley because he is the best player in the draft. "
It truly is that simple. You draft the best player available. Plain and simple.
I think its ridiculous that everybody hates on Beasley because hes a goofball. I don’t remember anyone opposed to drafting Ben Gordon, and his character issues seemed much worse.
I’ve yet to see any evidence of Beasley’s personality affecting his game. Ever. He absolutely dominated. He has come out and said that he wants to be the best, even better than Jordan (good luck with that one).
So let me get this straight:
Best player in the draft.
One of the best seasons in college basketball history.
Wants to be the best player he can be, night in and night out.
Gets double teamed, and still dominates.
...and we shouldn’t take him. This makes no sense.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
unless Rose is the best player available.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of those things were said about Glenn Robinson.
How did that turn out? I value the Kidd/Hill type ball handler with a suspect jumper over the gifted scorer. Beasley will certainly be good, but that doesn’t mean he’ll be the best player from this class.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glenn Robinson
comparisons do not appy. He was one of the most selfish players, probably ever. He ONLY cared about his points, his numbers, his payday. He never cared about winning. He only cared about making a name for himself. It was sad because he did have the skills, but not the mindset.
by kingj41 on Jun 24, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Robinson had inuries
He developed chronic knee and ankle injuries which derailed his career. That’s why he stopped attacking the basket and playing defense more and more as his career went on.
by CJ Bulls on Jun 24, 2008 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of those things were also said about...
... MJ, Magic, Larry Bird etc.
The No 1 Chi -Town sports fan in Europe!
by Vangelis on Jun 24, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me know when Beasley
can pass like Bird or Magic or dominate on defense like MJ. As I’ve said before. Show me that Beasley will be an above average passer, not somebody that just kicks it out of double teams or that he can dominate on defense and I’ll be more than happy to jump on the Beasley band wagon because his floor is really high. It’s his upside that I have problems with.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not saying that he can be as good as MJ, Bird & Magic
... all I’m saying is that it is unfair to choose to compare Beasley to G Robinson & D Coleman (i.e the exceptions to the rule and certainly the worst case scenario for anyone that has dominated that much at college) when history tells us that anyone who puts up numbers like that at college is more likely to become a superstar in the NBA rather than not. Beasley may bnot ecome as great as Bird/MJ/Magic but I think that he will definitely be as good a scorer as Kobe & D Wade which is good enough and certainly what we need right now rather than Rose/OJ Mayo/E Gordon/DJ Augustin..
The No 1 Chi -Town sports fan in Europe!
by Vangelis on Jun 24, 2008 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not all scoring is equal.
Where a player gets his points and how he gets his points is important. Superstars do more than score and rebound. Beasley hasn’t shown that he is a sure bet in any other area of the game. The list of high scoring forwards that were superstars without also being very good passers or defenders is pretty short. If he was a point forward or a 4/5, I’d be in love with Beasley. History hasn’t been kind to small forward/power forward tweeners.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish Beasley had 1 NBA ready teammate at K State
So we could have seen how good he could have been in a 2 man game, or passing out of double teams. It’s those little things that have me wavering between Beasley and Rose.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
History showed that...
... Beasley DOMINATED the Big-12 as a freshman, one of the toughest conferences in College football. He also posted some of the best numbers ever, again as a freshman. That is good enough to pick him over Rose.
The No 1 Chi -Town sports fan in Europe!
by Vangelis on Jun 25, 2008 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
while the Big 12 is a fine football conference
I hardly see what that has to do with Beasley dominating it in roundball.
by fundamentallysound on Jun 25, 2008 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ha!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 25, 2008 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beasley's now not only LeBron
but MJ, Magic, Bird, Mikan…
Hey, if you really believe that, then I completely understand not caring how Beasley carries himself.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
Beasley did have a better freshman year than any of those guys. That’s my point. Beasley has the amazing talent to make me even consider there’s a chance that he might fall in with those guys at some point. Rose, not so much.
by JSlakov on Jun 24, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, that's just like your opinion, man
I don’t think Beasley’s talented enough, no matter how many lefty layups he makes, to be in that discussion.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok
you don’t think that, but what could Beasley have possibly done to make you think that? Top 5 in scoring and rebounding, led a mediocre school farther than its been in years, dominated against the NCAA champions. It seems like there’s nothing a player of Beasley’s size and type could do to make you view him as better than Rose.
by JSlakov on Jun 24, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
stop while you're behind.
those are not good comparisons. at all.
the best i’ll give you is derrick coleman, carmelo anthony, heck i’ll give you charles barkley.
by swede2287 on Jun 24, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm I wonder how Barkley would have been evaluated nowadays?
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Undrafted.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Jun 25, 2008 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention for every Jason Kidd
there are plenty of Jason Williams (the guy starting for the heat right now, not the others) and Sebastian Telfairs.
Its not that I think Rose wont be good, but I can’t understand how you pass on a guy like Beasley. I feel like we are going to be kicking ourselves in the near future.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Telfair and Jason Williams are the best you can do?
Two players who everyone knew were extremely high risks to flop when they were drafted?
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
find me one person
who called either of those guys extremely high risks to flop before they were drafted.
TJ ford, mike conley jr, jameer nelson…these are the type of players I suspect Rose will be like, with better defense because he has some actual size.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously?
Jason Williams and Sebastian Telfair were huge gambles. Williams had school hopping and drug abuse in his background. Telfair was just glowing NBA model of success Stephon Marbury’s nephew.
Tell me more about what you think Ford, Nelson, and Conley are closer to where Rose projects and why he doesn’t project to Tony Parker, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams(my projections).
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jason Williams was kicked out of Florida for drug use
after being suspended three times. There were huge questions about whether he would ever shoot well enough or get his flashy game and turnovers under control to be an effective basketball player. And he’s been suspended in the NBA for drug use before getting his game and life together in Memphis. He was the 7th pick.
Telfair was an undersized HS PG with a questionable shot and court vision. Experts thought Portland was crazy to give him a promise with the 13th pick.
If you didn’t know that these guys were viewed as guys with a high failure rate, I assume you’re either too young or didn’t follow the NBA.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And how do three undsized PGs
have anything to do with Rose?
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not talking about character issues
I’m talking about the hype about the two players’ game. If you don’t remember all of the hype surrounding Telfair when he came out, you must’ve been watching some other sport.
Telfair’s relationship to Marbury didn’t hurt him; at the time Marbury was still considered a top NBA PG. Add a couple pictures hanging out with Lebron and all of the sudden, hes the best PG in the draft. Many people thought he would take Jameer Nelson to school.
And the Ford, Nelson, Conley comparison is related to their ability to handle the ball, but inability to shoot consistently.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was not universal hype
he wouldn’t have fallen to the late lottery if that was the case. He was the first PG coming out of high school, there were plenty of questions about the transition for him.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hype isn't the same as winning basketball games.
When it came to the NBA draft, Portland was the only team willing to spend a lottery pick on him. And many mock drafts had him at the bottom of the 1st round. I addressed the issues with their game, not just their character issues in my post. There’s also a difference between guys who are drafted among the top 2 picks in the draft and guys drafted in the bottom half of the lottery.
Nelson can shoot. He’s a 37% career 3P shooter, and has shot over 40% in half his NBA seasons. So he doesn’t even meet your criteria.
Rose is 20 pounds heavier than Ford and Conley and at least 1 3/4” taller than both of them. Rose finishes at the basket in ways that Ford and Conley can’t because of their size. Why would you pick them when a Devin Harris will fit your criteria without an enormous size difference. We also have no idea how good Conley will turn out to be. So I it doesn’t make much sense to compare anybody to Conley right now.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rose is quicker and more athletic than all of those guys(Ford,Conley,especially Nelson)
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
by YEP on Jun 24, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jameer Nelson?
Jameer? Nelson?
The poster formerly known as Freethefro.
by MPG on Jun 25, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not so much Kidd's ball-handling ability
as it is his vision that makes him incomparable. It’s like he’s watching the game from the court, the stands, and on TV. Rose doesn’t have that. Sorry…
by kingj41 on Jun 24, 2008 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I used ball handling as short hand for
controlling the ball the majority of the time without turning it over. I wasn’t talking about how well he dribbled. Great perimeter players make their teammates better by taking ball handling and decision making responsibilities away from the other players, it’s not primarily superior court vision. Rose doesn’t need superior court vision. He just has to see the open man, and there’s no question that he at least does that. Chris Paul is great primarily because he’s scores efficiently and he essentially takes all the decision making responsibility out of the other players hands, not because of his court vision.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he won't need court vision on the break
if he’s the first one to the basket. :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rose didn't make all the decisions at Memphis
CDR was the go-to guy on that team.
again, not saying that he can’t. But I don’t see him stepping in and being the leader that everyone wants him to be. I see him deferring to BG(can’t blame him, hes only 19) and watching as we continue to take terrible jumpshots.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know that.
That was how the DDR worked. Rose isn’t going to be playing in the DDR in the NBA. He also isn’t likely to be playing in Skiles type motion offense. If he’s drafted number one overall the ball is going into his hands in the NBA. If it doesn’t then Paxson has completely lost it.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Dance Dance Revolution worked that way?
I thought the offense was referred to as the DDM (Dribble Drive Motion) Offense. DDR is funnier to imagine though. :)
by fundamentallysound on Jun 24, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking about CDR and Memphis, while intending to write
DDM.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand the screw up,
it just cause a funny mental image, and I had to point it out.
by fundamentallysound on Jun 24, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although Dribble Drive Revolution
would be a more dynamic name, but I’m sure the acronym is copywrited now.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
CDR was the upper classmen
CDR is also an highly intelligent human. He’s in the classroom as much as he’s in the gym. A freshman, sensation or not, is going to see this demonstrated in CDR’s qualities and defer to them.
CDR also needs to be set up to score, but can occasionally get his own buckets by working twice as hard as other players.
CDR didn’t make that Memphis team click. Rose did that. That’s what the Bulls need. Make the whole greater than the sum of all its parts.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a min...
Ben Gordon’s character issues seemed much worse? Let’s not skew the facts or the truth…
by smash! on Jun 24, 2008 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BULLS.COM has NEW MIKE BEASLEY ARTICLE
very good article that interviews mike beasley’s k-state head coach. it pretty much contradicts A LOT of what we thought about his character. IMO-—-—-—->http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/martin_080623.html
also here’s my fav youtube mike beasley vid, watch it it’s pretty amazing.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DpyAf0Iz6UY
by AFireInside661 on Jun 24, 2008 4:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
From that article you mentioned :
“People of all ages tell me what a great kid Michael Beasley is because he helped them take their bags to the car”
Now, that is going too far to try to sell Beasley’s character. I could have believed some things, but that is too much hard selling.
The Game chose him !
by Diabolo on Jun 24, 2008 4:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also
“He led USA Basketball’s 19-and-under team to the gold medal game for the first time in nearly 20 years”
I do not agree at all with this statement. I saw all of the USA games in that tournament, and Michael Beasley was not the driving force behind the american kids’ relative success (or not). He had some very solid moves at the beginning of games (you could tell how talented he is), but he disappeared when the game got tough, or in the 3rd and 4th quarters almost every single game.
This not to say I don’t think he’s going to be a great NBA player, but just commenting on this overblown praise of Michael Beasley (expected from his college coach anyway).
The Game chose him !
by Diabolo on Jun 24, 2008 4:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ironically (or whatever)
I remember a Sam-passed story about Tyrus as a rookie, who insisted the Bulls staff take his bags.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the top player's college coach is lobbying for him and praising his character?
odd
"There is no 'i' in team, but there is in win."
--23
by Orlando Woolridge on Jun 24, 2008 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering there are people here who cited Calipari as evidence of Rose's greatness,
it’s only fair to give the other side equal time.
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
by wjb1492 on Jun 24, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't remember anyone who was slobbering on here over Cal's blowhard comments
at least not anyone i would consider “rational”.
next someone should start posting quotes from Beasley’s agent for a less biased view.
"There is no 'i' in team, but there is in win."
--23
by Orlando Woolridge on Jun 24, 2008 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed, I think anyone with a brain
is able to realize the context of the messenger in both cases.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The context wasn't identical
Frank Martin is Beasley’s coach that has vouched for his character.
John Calipari is Rose’s coach that has vouched for Rose doing what he asked of him FOR the Memphis Tigers.
These character perceptions are really helping Derrick Rose. Beasley may have acquired a false sense of his character via the press, blogs, and forums, but he hasn’t been able to move past them so we can read questions about his game.
This is probably just the aftermath of Beasley’s hype. On Youtube you can watch him after losing to Wisconsin in the lockerroom. The press is asking him about going pro and all Beasley wants to talk about is the game he just played. His face tells you what he’s thinking. He probably prefers to not talk to the press, but if he is he would like to talk about what just happened rather than move to the next bus stop in the life of Michael Beasley.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you don't mortgage your future on a guy who's not the sharpest tool in the shed
that’s Mr. Beasley.
someone had to say it.
"There is no 'i' in team, but there is in win."
--23
by Orlando Woolridge on Jun 24, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea
thank God Shaq is a ball of intellect.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
MJ, Bird, Magic...
Shaq!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
stop taking things out of context
its pretty obvious that i’m not claiming beasley will be the next shaq
I’m saying shaq isn’t smart, and I’d have no problem building a team around a young shaq.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah.
because he’s Shaq
He’s a one-man context.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fine
Tyrus Thomas – not very smart and everyone knew this while he was at lsu
Ask me two years ago if I would have a problem building a team around him, and the answer is ‘no’.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, but you would now, wouldn't you?
I don’t even remember people believing that draft had ‘build-around’ talent in the first place, so the stakes weren’t as high.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not really
I like the dude, and hope he really gets to flourish, but there’s been way too much talk about how he’s getting better and very little results.
He’s essentially the same player he was when he got here: unbelievably athletic, but not a good decision-maker.
All last year, everyone was talking about how he and Thabo dominated the summer league and how they’d be ready for the NBA. I’ll give 75% of the blame to the coaching staff for their lack of development, but they still have a lot of work to do.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thabo absolutely stunk in summer league...
and Tyrus was good but didn’t dominate anything. I watched almost every game….
by smash! on Jun 24, 2008 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you should've watched closer
Tyrus Thomas:
16.0 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 4.7 bpg
Thabo Sefolosha:
15.4 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 2.8 apg
absolute stinkage, this is not.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have consistently proven that you don't know what you're talking about.
From Bulls.com:
Rocky Mt Revue:
Tyrus didn’t play. Thabo played 2 of 4 games and avg 38 min with a 14% field goal % while hitting 58% from the line. He avg 5 pts.
Orlando League
Tyrus played only 3 games bc he got hurt and he shot 42% from the field and 60% from the line. Thabo did avg 15 pts there… while shooting 39% from the field, 20% from the arc and 67% from the line. He had 18 rebs and 14 assists total in 5 games. Against summer league opponents.
So maybe you should have read your google search deeper. Stick to things you know about. NBA basketball, that is not.
by smash! on Jun 25, 2008 12:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrus was hurt for most of the summer league
He dominated for probably 3 games.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's just start referring to him as "Beast"
“Mike” was already taken…
by smash! on Jun 24, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't give the keys to the Ferrari to B-Ease
or since it’s the PaxDorf Bulls we’re talking about, should I say “the keys to the beige 1990 Ford Taurus wagon.”
"There is no 'i' in team, but there is in win."
--23
by Orlando Woolridge on Jun 24, 2008 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Italian Sportscar marketing relationship
still under construction.
Move it Schanwald. Our guys are getting killed by the failure to capitalize on the decline in value of the dollar.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Flashback: Lebron James after being drafted #1 overall in 2003
[When asked about the present Cavs roster]
“This is Ricky Davis’ team.”
Ricky Davis was traded midway through the 03-04 season.
Real estate brokers are flooding Kirk Hinrich’s inbox with sales proposals.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 9:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Kirk's busy at lemas classes
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I pretty much have to rec this comment
Family first anyway. Good luck Kirk.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
is this one of those online quizzes?
what kind of Bulls player are you?
I’m more of a Gordon (personality) fan, since he is obsessed with basketball and wants to get paid for it, goddamnit all!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I judge my player projections
based on the size of their posse, the number of firearms in the home, and how many rounds of ammunition they think they need based on their past performances.
Tank Johnson: Best prospect in the NFL.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Er, it's lamaze
Which I realize virtually no one on here really cares about, but still…
This way people can google it when they don’t understand the comment! ;)
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
by wjb1492 on Jun 24, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
man I'm an idiot
I blame google. I typed in ‘le maz classes’, and was suggested lemas classes....fueled entirely by people misspelling it, apparently :)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Say a prayer
that the Beasely character questions are a plethora of “misspellings”.
We’re getting an awesome player either way, but you know…due diligence and all that funky stuff.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
same here
I’m sick of arguing over it, but I can understand both sides.
Besides, as has been mentioned before, we shouldn’t even be talking about this.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Que?
We’re in good shape. We’re just drawing and quartering each other now so that during the season we can bring all these statements back up for an “I told you” so orgy.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what I meant
was that we shouldn’t have the #1 pick.
I’m not too crazy about “I told you so”s, even when I’m on the fun side of it.
I’d much rather be wrong about this, and have a good team.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer not to use them
but one can still be a gentleman and a scoundrel. The House of Commons is perhaps the most worldy example.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's so much easier to live life when decisions are made for you
This is fun. You know how pathetic this offseason would have been without this #1 pick? We would have been debating whether to draft Anthony Randolph or surmising how to package Kirk and the #9 for Jose Calderon or something like that.
For all this debate, it won’t matter Thursday night. Whoever is drafted will immediately be propped as the new BaB favorite son (at least I hope so), and a signal that the franchise is ready to not suck at life.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I know I could just take a break from BaB for two days
but that’s just SO damned hard!... ;)
by BAB-Bass on Jun 24, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bulls fans are being conned.
I only hope that Paxson/Reinsdorf aren’t.
Beasley is the vastly superior player. Rose has no special abilities at all. He isnt a great passer! He isnt a great shooter! He isnt a great steals guy! C’mon.
Yes, Rose is from Chicago. Yes, he is a nice guy. Yes, his team went deeper in the NCAAs. Yes, I like him as a person. But unless you are trying to convert the Bulls into the new “Luvable Losers”, since the Cubs seem to be shucking that moniker, those are not reasons to draft him. None of that changes that he is an inferior player to Beasley.
The media took one look at the two of them and immediately wrote the big talented head case vs smart quick good guy stories. It was an obvious angle to take, even when the character issues turn out to be fluff. Even when the smart guy doesnt pass all that well, and isnt quick enough to get steals. They had their angle and it echoed around as most writers just rephrase what they read other people write.
And now the fans believe. You say you don’t believe in this character stuff mostly, but in a situation with a 19 year old rookie draft pick you think it matters? That is the last place it matters. You get leadership from your veterans, not your kids. You know that. Shake the cobwebs from your eyes.
Go Bulls!
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope."
by californiachicagoan on Jun 24, 2008 11:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe you passed on the chance to call them
loveaBULL losers.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One note
The media took one look at the two of them and immediately wrote the big talented head case vs smart quick good guy stories.
We have a larger sample beyond the Chicago press. The press covering the McDonalds All-American game wrote similar stories. The press covering the NCAA tournament wrote similar stories.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rose has been annointed the "Next Great PG"--What I don't understand is
why the intrepid media types continue to sing the praises of Rose as the next great PG. I understand the objective measurements, such as speed and vertical. But in terms of actual game situations, they must be seeing something that we lay types are not seeing.
On the other hand, you’d hope that they aren’t making the same mistake with Rose that they have made previously with Mike Conley, Andrea Bargnani, Andrew Bogut or (gasp) Kwame Brown. None of these guys was properly analyzed at the time, and all of them more or less received the media’s rubber stamp for being drafted where they were drafted. I reall don’t recall anyone saying, “this player is good, but no way would I pick him this high.” And specifically, I suppose that Conley, being a quick PG, would be the closest comparison to Rose, despite his not being the overall #1 pick.
As I’ve mentioned before, Jay Bilas and Greg Anthony, among many, many others in the national media, are very outspoken about Rose’s off-the-charts abilities as both an athlete and a natural PG. Joining him lately is our own Jay Williams, who parrotted exactly those qualities for TrueHoop (I’ll try to find the link).
I want to believe this is true, because Beasley’s looney bin personality, combined with his lack of height, scares the crap out of me, and apparently, there’s a huge dropoff between the top two and the next tier down in this draft. But just once I’d like one of these talking heads to go into very detailed specifics of what aspects they see in Rose’s game to show that he’s the next J-Kidd and not the next Raymond Felton. That’s the only thing that bothers me about drafting him at this point.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 24, 2008 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is he not the next Raymond Felton?
1st, size and athleticism combo. He’s 2” taller and for argument’s sake at the very least just as athletic. And that size and speed allow him to do things that Felton can’t in terms of guarding bigger players. Finishing inside and on the break, and posting up smaller guards. His body control at speed separates himself the other run jump athletes at PG.
2nd, Felton in his last year at UNC, which was his junior year, was still only making 47% of his 2 Point shots. If a player, especially a PG, struggles to finish on the college level then they’re going to have serious problems in the NBA. Rose shot 52% on 2P shots as a freshman that’s a positive indicator for his future. And anyone who has watched him play can see that finishes at the basket extremely well.
3rd, Felton was taking way too many 3s in college per FGA. 47% of his FGA were 3s at UNC. That’s an extremely high % and puts Felton firmly on the Mike Bibby end of the PG spectrum, rather than the Kidd and Paul side. Notice that slightly less than 1/5 of both Paul’s and Deron Williams’s FGA were 3PA last season. Rose took only 24% of his FGA from behind the arc last seasons. That’s a low %, but not so that’s a red flag. He took 3 point shots with confidence even from NBA range so that % is at least partly a reflection of his shot selection.
There are 3 reasons Rose isn’t Raymond Felton. I don’t think he’s the next Jason Kidd. More like Baron Davis’s abilities put to much better use.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scotter, are you comfortable with the team
the Bulls would put around Rose? Whose game(s) do you see Rose benefitting the most?
Or is there some roster re-shaping (minor or radical) that you believe will be necessary?
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 24, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
uhhhh
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I assume Rose will dominate the back court.
Any ideas about the front court?
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 24, 2008 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If there was any indication
that we were going to try and pair Rose up with a decently sized 2 guard, I’d be all for drafting him. We wouldn’t need Beasley.
But if we are going to try to pull off a backcourt with no one taller than 6’3”, we are kidding ourselves.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One indication might be....
....that the Bulls used a lottery selection on Thabo Sefolosha.
Wouldn’t he make a great pairing with Rose, and Gordon off the bench?
Not saying it’ll happen – but it’s much more likely now that ‘He whose name shall never again be spoken’ is no longer the interim coach.
by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 24, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm all for it
and I really do hope VDN gives him some time to play. But so far we’re 0-2 with coaches doing that.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't think that last, interim guy should count as a whole coach.
We’re more like 0-1.09 for that.
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
by wjb1492 on Jun 24, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, B_y_an
did play Thabo and allowed Thabo to get his confidence back (resulting in a good stretch in January/February before Thabo injuring his groin).
So it is only 1 coach really.
The Game chose him !
by Diabolo on Jun 26, 2008 2:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
only played thabo
cause everyone else was injured :P
by Jaina on Jun 26, 2008 7:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those 2 were pretty much the same coach
And hopefully Paxson now has balls to tell his coach “play my guys, PJ Brown is not walking through that door. Chris Duhon is not walking through that door.”
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey
I will keep my fingers crossed.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Thabo displays an improving offensive game, then sure
But as of now, drafting Rose means a Rose/Gordon backcourt (at least that’s what makes sense to me).
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't think
Rose should be responsible for guarding shooting guards in the NBA.
Hinrich is considered a good defensive PG and he gets eaten alive.
not to mention, Rose is a rookie.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just don't want the Bulls to be an anemic offense with a rookie PG
That just doesn’t sound too appealing to me. I get you’re point about big guards, I just wish I had more faith in Thabo’s game.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't this be like
a Francis-Mobley backcourt? I don’t recall them getting routinely torched, though I could be wrong…
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 24, 2008 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
situation is a little different
because Mobley could guard SGs and wing players just fine. Gordon can’t do that.
by darksmokepuncher on Jun 24, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it
How is it Derrick Rose’s fault that our starting 2-guard is undersized, particularly when Rose’s size is comparable to our current starting point guard? And how would drafting Michael Beasley affect this in any way?
That Ben Gordon is undersized is not relevant to this particular discussion.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jun 24, 2008 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Bulls draft Rose on thursday, I'll have a fan post on this subject.
What I’d like to articulate is way too long for a comment because it requires me to articulate my vision for the team and my assessment of players like Tyrus and Deng.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you have a vision
I encourage you to email it to Paxson ;)
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looking forward to it.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 24, 2008 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow. Thanks for that very complete answer.
I should be so complete in researching for my posts.
But just to clarify, I wasn’t asking about Raymond Felton specifically so much as him as an example. In other words, what is it about Rose that will make him different from PG’s of similar stature who did not have all of this hype? For example, beyond Felton, Mike Conley, Kyle Lowry, Randy Foye, Charlie Bell, Mo Williams, Ronnie Price and Jordan Farmar? Some of these are pretty good players, but none of them is worth the #1 overall.
And actually, I’m not asking about statistics. I guess I’m wondering what expert NBA observers (note no capital “o” in “observer”, heh) see in the actual way Rose plays. What are his tendencies? What are his weaknesses? What examples can they draw upon to explain to us how Rose breaking down his man and making a runner in the lane is more like Kidd (or B. Davis) doing the same thing, and less like Ronnie Price doing the same thing?
I realize this question almost asks for a play-by-play breakdown of Rose’s solitary college season. I’d take anecdotal evidence, as well. But statistics only tell part of the story. I really wish that one of these talking heads would say, “Here’s how a typical college PG would react in this kind of a situation. But here’s how Rose reacted. And this is why he’s special…”
Until we get that kind of specific analysis of his tendencies, strengths and weaknesses, it’s all just declarations that he’s got greatness written all over him. No offense, but a lot of players who’ve failed in the league were deemed to have greatness in their futures.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 24, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well you're comparing mid to late 1st rounders to a lottery pick
Conley and Foye are the only lottery picks in that bunch, so you should only compare Rose to them. The rest may be of similar stature, but their games are nowhere near Rose’s.
And specific analysis has been done by numerous analysts. Guys like Hollinger, Ford, and websites like DX follow the NCAA all year to make their opinions on players.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some of the players you mentioned....
.....weren’t taken in the top 5 or 6 spots. How or why are NBA GMs successful in evaluating players under 6’6”? I don’t know – but as I’ve posted this in comments MANY times before – they just are. In the aggregate, NBA GMs are much more successful in evaluating players under 6’6” than those over that mark. In particular, those players under 6’6” taken in the top 6 spots have about an 85-90% probability of playing at least 10-12 years in the NBA.
Farmar was taken #26. Lowry was taken #24. Charlie Bell was undrafted. Obviously, NBA GMs (in the aggregate) saw something about these players that is VERY different from what they see from Derrick Rose. Rose, even if the Bulls and Heat passed on him, would be happily snatched up at #3 by the Timberwolves.
Forget one team and one GM. I’m talking about the combined brainpower of 28 – 31 GMs and organizations. I don’t know how they do it – but they do. I’ve listed before in these comments all the players under 6’6” taken in the top 6 spots in the draft from 1991-2006. Somehow, they are able to segregate the Derrick Roses and Jason Kidds from the Jordan Farmars and Kyle Lowrys. And they’ve been quite good at it also.
By the way – your wish for an adequate breakdown of Rose’s tendencies could just as well be echoed about Beastley. All I’ve heard about him is that he’s a slam-dunk, he can’t miss, he’s left-handed and can shoot from anywhere….but no mention whatsoever of the specifics that you desire. It isn’t an issue with Rose and his fans – it’s an issue among all draftees.
by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 24, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's actually a really cool theory that you mention,
specifically, that GM’s have been much better at assessing talent for 6’6” and unders rather than those over 6’6”.
I haven’t heard that one before, but I have heard something of the type that I think it was wjb or someone was mentioning, which is that a disproportionate number of really, really tall guys are pushed into playing basketball, while a larger proportion of moderately tall guys play basketball because they actually have a genuine enjoyment for the game. Maybe the two theories are complementary.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 24, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think one dynamic....
....is that GMs are much more afraid to ‘miss’ on a smaller player. They’re more willing to take a risk on a bigger player.
I don’t think that situation has anything to do with the choice of Rose or Beasley. I think it is an indication that Rose will be a solid pro for years to come, but that’s not to say Beasley won’t be better.
Also, I do tend to believe the projections for Beasley, because he’s not 7 feet tall. NBA GMs willing to take a ‘tweener’ like Beasley must be very certain that he’ll be a success. And I don’t disagree whatsoever. I just think Rose is exactly what the doctor ordered for the Chicago Bulls. I also think Beasley will be Beastley on the Heat for years to come.
by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 24, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because a big man can still account for something
If a PG is a bust, they really can’t do much in the league other than be a journeyman backup, or start for crappy teams.
Big men who become busts (Kwame), can still be used as just big oafs to use up fouls, rebound, and play some defense. Drew Gooden was never as good as his lottery pick indicated he might become, but he will always be a serviceable big man.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing
That 7-footers taken outside the top-3 picks or so are historically awful selections is an observed and documented fact. Note that this doesn’t mean that every such pick is bad – Andrew Bynum is working on being a significant exception to this rule and will certainly create a whole new generation of DeAndre Jordan’s – but the history of such picks is beyond awful.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
by Jivas on Jun 24, 2008 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you didn't mean Felton specifically, I took the opportunity to use a specific
example. But, the same separating factors apply to the other guys mentioned. Throw Conley out because he only has played one season. All those other guys struggled to finish. None of them made 50% of their 2P FGA. That’s the primary thing that separates the guards that get drafted at the top of the lottery from the rest. Very few guards have ever approached Rose’s abilities as a finisher.
The stats are just proxies for skills. And they help quantify those skills.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But what about
the assist and jump-shooting stats of Rose? Don’t these show that he won’t be as good as the vaunted Deron Williams and Chris Paul? Then there’s the fact that Rose’s stats changed pretty drastically from beginning to end of his only college year. And the fact that his one college year is a smaller sample size than most.
Statistics can be manipulated to say anything.
All of this brings me to the point that what I really want to see is a Doug Collins type (or Greg Anthony, or Jay Bilas) break down Rose’s game almost telestrator-like. (Not gonna happen…)
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 24, 2008 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It may very well be that 50% 2P FGA's
is the dividing line between “bust” and “good NBA player for years to come” for PG’s of Rose’s stature.
But if so, I’m wondering what this means as far as “acquiring” other PG skills after joining the league, such as court vision / finding the open man, playing within a system, playing defense and hitting (long) jumpers.
I mean, if your theory is correct, then that would imply that all of these skills are not as essential for an NBA career as being able to finish on 2-pt shots for college PG’s. If statistics bore this out over a large sample size of PG’s who are about Rose’s height, that would be fascinating.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 24, 2008 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're looking at this a little bit wrong, I think.
The reason all these NBA draftable players were playing PG in college to begin with was because they had PG skills. If it was just about finishing then Monta Ellis would be playing PG. But, yes much of what you describe can be developed once in the NBA. Especially, defense and shooting. The ability to finish is one of the places where the cream rises to the top. Shooting over 50% on 2P FGAs as a PG in college requires both the ball handling and athletic ability to get to the rim and to finish consistently. I don’t know that 50% is the magic number, but it is a good easy to understand dividing point. I am going to take a closer look at this with the elite PG prospects.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except
wasn’t Ben Gordon considered the PG on that UConn team of his?
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 24, 2008 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
UConn had Taliek Brown at the PG
Highly touted prospect who never lived up to the hype. Ended up very Duhon like.
by CJ Bulls on Jun 24, 2008 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
odd
why throw Conley out for only playing one season when you are using Rose’s one season at Memphis as a comparison?
by JSlakov on Jun 24, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he meant one NBA season
So, while he wasn’t that impressive, he didn’t get that much of a chance to display his talents in Memphis in their PG merry go round.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea
I know he meant that but its odd to me that he’ll admit one season is not enough of a sample size in the NBA but playing less than half the games in college is enough to go by.
by JSlakov on Jun 24, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What else is there to go by for evaluating Rose?
His jr high games?
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 24, 2008 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Memphis last year was a terrible environment
to evaluate Conley in. He played about 50% minutes in a small backcourt with Navarro, and then played another 20% of his minutes paired with either Lowry or Crittenten. That would be like pairing Rose with Duhon and expecting great results. There are positive signs for Conley is you look at his rookie year seriously.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because bullhockey was including Conley in a group
of NBA players that have an established level of play in the NBA. I think there is a good chance Conley turns out to be a very good NBA player. He’s not as good a prospect as Rose, but his one college season was very good. He’s the one guy in that group that did shoot over 50% on 2P FGA, which is part of the reason GMs were willing to take a risk on a 175 pound PG that couldn’t shoot 3s.
formerly sbulls
by Scotter on Jun 24, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am extremely tense.
I am afraid that the Bulls will overanalyze this pick, which is Paxson’s tendency, rather than simply taking the better player.
I wish I knew what happened in the workouts. They are the key to this puzzle. Which guy looked better on the court?
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Jun 24, 2008 11:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
they have to do more than that
it’s taking the better player 4 years from now.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm
if only there was a respected basketball analyst out there who would project how both players will do in Year 3…
by JSlakov on Jun 24, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
::rolls eyes::
Hollinger-bot for GM!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
(note: I'd be ok with Hollinger for GM)
not the draft-bot though.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I oversimplified.
You’re right.
What I meant was that I am afraid that the Bulls will fixate on superfluous considerations, rather than just focusing on who will become the better player on the court. Paxson has a history of overvaluing secondary traits.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Jun 24, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that was the overall point of my post
in this case, the superfluous isn’t so.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't consider leadership potential and work ethic
extraneous, so I agree with the main thrust of your post.
But I hope Paxson doesn’t consider how “nice” or “respectful” the players are, or how well they “resonate” with fans, or how they “interact with the media,” or how “marketable” they are, or anything else of that nature.
LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!
by 1958ChiTown on Jun 24, 2008 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
indeed
the ‘chicago guy’ stuff is superfluous. Though I can’t say I’m not a little excited about someone explicitly wanting to play here.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At least if he turns into a "superstar"...
...he’ll probably stick around forever. Who’s to say Beasley doesn’t turn jump ship 6 years from now? not likely, but we know it’s probably impossible that Rose will ever leave as long as the Bulls want him.
by tyger1147 on Jun 24, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thabo outplayed Rudy Gay
in workouts with the Bulls if that’s any guide.
Rose and Beasley worked out alone and with coaches, but not against any other players as far as we know.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
About Thabo
That was before Skiles became his coach.
by kingj41 on Jun 24, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interactive mock draft on ESPN
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?page=DraftDebate-080624
Keep in mind this is Bill Simmons talking, but here’s an excerpt:
I loved Derrick Rose at first sight. He’s a great and selfless teammate; he’s a franchise point guard entering a league in which point guards have become inordinately valuable; he’s got a great name (never underestimate the value of a great name); he was the best player on an extremely successful college team; and in short, after watching him a few times, I would have bet my life on him making multiple All-Star appearances (barring injury).Of course, Beasley was putting up great fantasy numbers at Kansas State, so everyone assumed he was the logical No. 1 pick … even though he went to something like 24 high schools, didn’t seem to connect with teammates in any way, and looked like a potential defensive liability in the pros. Beasley seemed like one of those Derrick Coleman/Glenn Robinson types to me—eye-popping numbers, tantalizing talent, and ultimately, someone who wasn’t leading you to the conference finals, much less a championship.
by swede2287 on Jun 24, 2008 11:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
and ford took rose.
I too think the Bulls should take Rose No. 1. He’s the type of tough leader the team desperately lacks. I think he’ll be an All-Star staple for years in the East. And don’t worry about him playing in Chicago, because the kid has only one hobby—basketball. That makes me feel pretty good about him going No. 1.
by swede2287 on Jun 24, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
FYI
this could be it’s own fanpost/fanshot.
If it has a new link (and new thought) attached to it, I’m pretty much ok with some redundancy, as the comments (obviously) bog down information sometimes.
Just thought I’d let everyone know that…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
then again, I've also noticed
that even buried comments on main posts get more action than fanshots. at least so far.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could switch the links down to where the fanshots are
and move the fanshots up to where the links are.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
by alec on Jun 24, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sry i'm just not that tech savvy...
and i don’t expect there to be too much discussion on this.
But some other stuff on Beasley that needs to be looked at: (Simmons)
Here’s my question: Ultimately, where does Beasley take you? We just watched the 2008 Celtics win the title with defense. In fact, the last 20 NBA champions were either very good defensive teams or great defensive teams, dating back to the ‘89 Pistons and going right down the line. Beasley is a superb scorer and rebounder, but from what I’ve seen, he doesn’t give you anything else—he’s the kind of guy who puts up a 27-12 and gives up a 26-11 on the other end. He doesn’t seem to have any leadership qualities whatsoever. Do you honestly see him leading an NBA champion some day? And with Dwyane Wade already on the team, wouldn’t you want to surround him with quality character guys, role players, 3-point shooters and defensive studs?Anyway, I’d take Beasley here, have a goofy 2009 season with Beasley, Wade and Marion that would make them one of the great fantasy teams of all time, and then, right after the 2008-09 season, I’d sign-and-trade Marion and shop Beasley around for somebody who could help me win a title. He’ll actually have more value a year from now than he does right now, if that makes sense. By the way, if Ricky Davis can survive a year in South Beach without landing in a sex tape or going into AA, I think Beasley will be able to handle it.
He points out some of my biggest problems with Beasley:
Is he a defensive-minded leader who can lead a championship team?
If we take Beasley, I see us babysitting him while he puts up superstar numbers. Then we’ll trade him a few years down the line – when we are not much closer to being a championship contender and the situation sours.
by swede2287 on Jun 24, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what's puzzling about the Heat.
They already have the leader of the team and a 2nd/3rd option. They only need “production”—screw intangibles.
by tyger1147 on Jun 24, 2008 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Michael Beasley is a great name too.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does Beasley remind anyone else of...
Marcus Fizer???
Think about how everyone talked up Marcus Fizer’s game around draft time, and didn’t he come to us with like the number 4 pick? He too came shorter than advertised, had kind of an attitude, and got used by NBA bigs more often than not. This is what worries me about any Forward coming out of the draft, they are almost NEVER the franchise player on a team with only a few notable exceptions (Brand, Garnett, Gasol, etc.)...so is Beasley really Brand or Garnett good? I’m not sold…at all. Especially since we already have a really good scoring forward who hustles in Drew Gooden.
I’ve just been thinking about it after reading something on ESPN today about how Beasley is the far superior player…
I’d much rather roll the dice with Rose, personally.
by POSEYHATER on Jun 24, 2008 12:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
No
This one of those analogies that’s geographical in nature. I want Rose, but Beasley is far and away better than Fizer. Age, speed, points, aggression: Beasley is well ahead of Fizer in all of these departments.
by NBA Observer on Jun 24, 2008 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Statistically, production is not even close between those two.
Beasley does remind me of Fizer in that he does’t have polished low-post moves and often simply lays his bigger upper body on the opposing player and tosses in a layup. Tim Duncan he is not. Not by far.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Jun 24, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 