Doubting Thomas?
by BigBenign on Jun 23, 2008 11:13 AM CDT
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PrintThis off of Hoopsword.
A new twist on the Wade rumor posted here last week. Discussing the rumored trade of Thomas, Hughes, and the #1 pick for Wade, this report states that "The Bulls have been trying to find a taker for Tyrus Thomas..."'
This is troubling. Could the Bulls truly be ACTIVELY SHOPPING Tyrus? Obviously this is a single, unsubstantiated remark, but the notion is worrisome. Tyrus was drafted with the knowledge that he was a bit of a project who would nonetheless have an impact immediately because of his athleticism. If the Bulls have truly given up on developing him, then Paxson's failure is complete.
On a positive note, at least we're not shopping him for trash...yet.
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Never Trade Tyrus
He will be much better by next year. hink about it. Most big men arent that productive in there first 2 years in the league. Plus this guy has so much potential, it would really be a shame to trade him.
by knickknack7450 on Jun 23, 2008 11:18 AM CDT reply actions
I'm a huge fan of TT
but for wade I would think twice. Trade it
by JustAnotherFan on Jun 23, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
then
i suppose every big man in the nba should have a free pass for their first two years?...
Don't they already
Some bigs are ready now. Most aren’t. Even the all-stars now needed a few seasons to figure out the NBA.
by NBA Observer on Jun 23, 2008 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Why are you surprised?
I can not understand why fans have become so attached to Tyrus. I always viewed him as a chip for a bigger deal down the road. His athleticism & “potential” (I swear I hate that word when it comes to basketball talent) are currently his only attributes. The Bulls as a staff are not capable of bringing out the best in him (ask Tyson Chandler). He’s still a project & I will not shed one tear if he is included in a deal that makes this team more complete (i.e. a deal for a true big man/post presence). . . .
Yes, but
while THIS trade is for Dwyane Wade, the blanket statement that the Bulls are trying to unload Thomas is the concern. The right deal is always worth doing.
I heard Roy Hibbert's workout is scheduled for next week.
Maybe they're trying to make room for Beasley.
Beasley would no doubt outplay Tyrus from day one…turning Tyrus into a distracting malcontent. Better to move him now.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
Right, because he's been a distracting malcontent
behind the likes of Brown, Smith, Gooden, and Nocioni.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Please continue
to whistle past the graveyard.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
jerk.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 23, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Please continue
to spout baseless “observations”
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
The assertion that Tyrus has been a distracting malcontent
has plenty of basis. Do we really need to go through a blow by blow accounting?
You might choose to disbelieve them all, or in part, or simply say he’s all growed up and therefore whatever happened is irrelevant, but they’re clearly not baseless :)
It's gotten to the point
where the Tyrus love is so blind all you can do is laugh.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
jerk!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 23, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Based on what?
He had limited minutes behind a bunch of guys who didn’t have the talent or in most cases the production to deserve playing ahead of him. He didn’t exactly act like a colossal jerk despite this. What does he have going against him? There’s the Slam Dunk Contest incident (completely overblown, no impact to the team), missed practice (indications being that there actually was a good reason for this, just handled poorly on Tyrus’s part), and Sam Smith constantly ripping on him (because Sam constantly rips on just about every player who doesn’t treat his elders with utmost respect). He’s immature, I don’t know or care if he’s grown up, but he’s not at the point of “distracting malcontent.” Though, if he’d like to be, he surely could contact his old friends Skiles, Wallace, and Hinrich for tips.
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
...
“He’s immature”
at some point, immaturity can become distracting.
...not exactly bolstering my case for Beasely...
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
I ran outta gas!
I had a flat tire! I didn’t have enough money for cab fare! My tux didn’t come back from the cleaners! An old friend came in from outta town! Someone stole my car! There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts!! It wasn’t my fault I swear to God!!!
Not exactly the blow by blow smear campaign you promised
We have every right to dream heroic dreams. Those who say that we're in a time when there are no heroes, they just don't know where to look.
Ronald Reagan
Alec
Maybe it’s not Beasley or TT, but rather Beasley or Deng.
Ah, but there's a new staff in place.
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
i'd be kind of surprised if this were true
he seems to have turned over a new leaf recently. really hope they keep him.
i do have to say though if they end up getting rid of him for a star caliber player (like wade, though i’m not crazy about giving up both tyrus and our #1 for wade, even if it means getting rid of hughes), then i can see that and understand it. i just hope they don’t end up getting rid of him for trash the way they did with chandler.
I'm hoping we get at least one more season with him,
to see the outcome of the work with Thorpe, and what a (hopefully) decent staff can get out of him.
Actually, I was thinking about this the other day – the fact that none of the players Chicago has drafted going all the way back to Kirk have played for any coaching staff other than Skiles and his minion. Kirk had a training camp and few games before Skiles came on, but the vast majority of his career and all of BG, Lu, Tyrus, Thabo, Joakim, Noc, etc. has been with a coaching staff that we now are hearing was not good with communication or development. I’d like to see how all of the do with a different coach and style.
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
Can't I get a club source?
Now, however, the rumor is beginning to take new shape and regain its life. The Bulls have been trying to find a taker for Tyrus Thomas, and the latest rumor has them sending him to Miami along with Larry Hughes and the first pick in the draft for Wade.
I’ll take an unnamed source in the player personnel department in Chicago or Miami. Hell, any club, but can we at least place this instead of just saying “rumor is”?
How does this help?
I don’t see how your expanded quote lends any further understanding to what I quoted. Obviously if a source was cited, I would have included it. But the closest thing to a source even YOUR quote provides is “the rumor is.” Thanks for the enlightenment??
I heard Roy Hibbert's workout is scheduled for next week.
Also
I do note that “Obviously this is a single, unsubstantiated remark”
I heard Roy Hibbert's workout is scheduled for next week.
You're forgetting about KC and his many "who will be traded" asides. ;)
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
KC's articles are probably the Hoopsworld source.
That’s about as inside as they get.
formerly sbulls
Not your fault
We have no beef with each other. Mine’s with Bill Ingram writing for Hoops World. Can’t he drop us some table scraps?
I’ll take a pea sized hole view into the NBA insider fraternity, but give me something beyond “rumor”.
by NBA Observer on Jun 23, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
"actively shopping Thomas"
yeah right
like Pax doesn’t have his hands full right now as is.
this kind of unsubstantiated crap brings down legit bloggers.
"There is no 'i' in team, but there is in win."
--23
by Orlando Woolridge on Jun 23, 2008 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
It fuels Paxspeak
He can talk all day about “bloggers’ and “rumors” and “speculation” until he’s red in the face and everything he will say will be true.
Blogging is more or less an arrival at a consensus by shooting down hysterical suggestions like Wallace for Amare. ;)
by NBA Observer on Jun 23, 2008 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I think we all look forward to adding the NBAO blog to our reading lists.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 23, 2008 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I take that back
I forgot the awesomeness of SBN2.0. :-D
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 23, 2008 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
What ever is right for the team
Wade would bring them a 50 win season.
by knickknack7450 on Jun 23, 2008 11:42 AM CDT reply actions
Assuming he's healthy and can actually play the whole season.
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
As much as I like Wade
I truly believe he’s past his prime.
Wasn’t it scotter that had a post about how as the injuries pile up guys tend to drift their games more and more outside?
For Wade, whose weakest part of his game is his outside shot, this will bring him a good ways back to the pack.
Dum spiro spero! (While there is life, there’s hope!)--Leon Trotsky
He's dug himself a hole
The free throw begging “fall 8 times get up once” is going to add up over time. You have to find a way to fall with grace to sell your calls.
We all know Money’s fade, twist, fall, and floor shimmey. But that was a controlled fall as they teach professional wrestlers.
Extending his range would help him, but he feeds off attacking the rim.
by NBA Observer on Jun 23, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
His game is Jordan-esque....if MJ never worked on his jumpshot
On the zillion YouTube clips of MJ games, you can see how his jumpshot simply got better over the years. That stop and pop shot is really hard to do considering how you’re just stopping all your momentum on a dime, but he was able to get that shot off with regularity. With Wade, that shot goes in at a much lower rate since other teams know he’s totally intent on driving to the lane. If he was built like LeBron it’d work, but he’s a combo guard. How Iverson has been taking all that punishment for a decade now is mind-boggling, but for Wade I think it’s catching up to him, and playing in Bejing is not going to help.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 23, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
i tried...
looking it up in the archives, but i believe there was a post during the last half of this past season in which someone linked an article that stated it was already a forgone conclusion that thomas would be shopped this summer, and that his ‘antics’ (if you will) had worn thin the relationship with both his teammates and the staff. i think the article was from kc, as smith seemed to warm to thomas somewhat before his departure.
as for thomas, yes, he has potential, but you have to wonder if he’ll ever figure “it” out. and if the bulls feel that he’ll never figure it out, why not try to unload him now while the “potential” tag is still buzzing around him?
Per 48 numbers
pts 18.2
rbs 12.3
ast 3.2
blk 2.7
stl 1.7
And doods still only 21…he hasn’t even hit his prime yet…
and 37 fouls...
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Jun 23, 2008 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Hold up.
They never let him play through his foul trouble as other players get to. Who knows, maybe he’d get two fouls by the second quarter and then never foul again the rest of the game. They never let him play through it. They never let him foul out. I don’t think we have any evidence to show what he’d do with a 48 minute game foul-wise.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
It was a joke...
Nobody can average 37 fouls a game.
It’s also a joke to think that TT (or most 6 foot 9 men) wouldn’t collapse if he played 48 minutes.
The whole per 48 rating is bunk IMO.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Jun 23, 2008 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah Dickey Simpkins prolly averaged...
17 pts 12 rbs per 48 minutes…Tyrus has potential lets just leave it at dat
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
No the 48 minutes ratings is stupid
No one plays 48 minutes a game for a consistent period of time. Use per 36 minutes averages, Tyrus still comes out looking good.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 23, 2008 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah
i mean it’s stupid because realistically no one is averaging 48 minutes a game. the only way to use per 48 is when you’re comparing two players to see how they compare given the same number of minutes – but you can use per 36 or 40 for that also.
I took it as an exageration
obviously. Your point was clearly made though. I feel like we’ve been over this before and we disagree. You think Tyrus has a problem with fouling and can’t stay on the floor because of it. I think he doesn’t have a problem with fouling. He has a problem with inept coaching. If he stayed on the floor he’d settle down and stop fouling.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Hopefully we'll find out next year...
One way or another.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Jun 23, 2008 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions
per 36 is better
AI can’t even play 48 minutes a night.
by NBA Observer on Jun 23, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
But that would make his stats look worse...
I prefer per 100 mpg.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Jun 23, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh plzzzzzzzzzzz
Riley is trying to Build around Wade..Theres no way in hell he will trade Wade away …
This is pure speculation
i would think...
that stating, “There is no way in hell he will trade Wade away” is also pure speculation.
i would also go on to add that 95% of what is written on this board is opinion and speculation, but that would be purely speculation…
Well now your just speculating.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Jun 23, 2008 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions
That should read you'RE...
In no way did I mean to imply that speculating was somehow yours… That would simply be conjecture.
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Jun 23, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
When is Thesaurus day at BAB
We need some word substitutions. Obviously of course.
by NBA Observer on Jun 23, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Rose AND TT for Wade? Hell no!!!
I like Wade but not that much!!
Why in the world would the Heat ever trade Dwyane Wade?
The only reason they’d ever trade him is if they know for a fact that he’s damaged goods – which is exactly why the Bulls shouldn’t make the deal. That’s the only reason a team would even think about trading someone that good when he’s only 26.
I would be skeptical too...
Especially considering it’s Pat “Snake Oil” Riley at the helm.
The other reason however could be that they have needs at multiple positions, and the Heat will suck next year and lose D-Wade in 2010 anyway.
Still, I don’t put much stock in the trade rumors.
While we are on the subject here, am I the only one who thinks that Miami can’t wait for us to draft Rose just so they can snatch up Beasley?
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Jun 23, 2008 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions
My nightmare scenario
is we take this trade, Wade rehabs on our dime for two years, Miami has TT, Rose, B-Easy and signs Wade as a fa in 2010, possibly getting another top lotto pick the next damn year or two because they played all the young-uns under a coach hand-picked to make Miami fans clamor for Riles to puh-leeeez come back.
by California Al on Jun 24, 2008 1:46 AM CDT up reply actions
A question (or two) for the Tyrus Fanclub...
It’s obvious that many Bulls fans are still on the Tyrus Love Train and hoping he’ll improve this year to realize some of his vast ‘potential’. I’m not a huge Tyrus fan, but I DO hope that he’ll improve his game this summer and be a more consistent player for the Bulls.
My question is, what are YOUR expectations of Tyrus this year?... And what threshhold of productivity (pts/rbs averages) must he stay above, given a reasonable opportunity (i.e. 30 minutes a game), in order to keep the ‘bust’ label from permeating… even amongst Tyrus fans?... Or is a 50 win season with Tyrus as a bench contributor enough to hold back the floodgates??
Tyrus starting PF
15ppg, 9rpg, 2bpg, contend for all-nba defense awards. Help assist Rose’s development with play above the rim.
by NBA Observer on Jun 23, 2008 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions
That's my view as well.
And I don’t see how he couldn’t manage it, especially if he’s been working on it this summer like he seems to be. He is going to have his off nights and going to have great 25pt games, but I am expecting his average to even out to something respectable like that.
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
And if we draft Beasley?
Don't call me doughboy!
by Khalid El-Amin on Jun 23, 2008 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Whatever he averages now
Probably a better FG% if his shot has improved, but drafting Beasley means Tyrus development is on hold.
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 23, 2008 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
My optimistic projections for last year were
11 ppg and 7 rpg in 25 minutes. This would have put him in line with same-age seasons of Shawn Kemp and Antonio McDyess (his best and most realistic statistical and scouting comparisons, in my opinion), who each played more minutes on teams where playing time was more plentiful. He fell short of this projection this season, although if you look at his first half/second half splits, he was in-line with this performance in the second half (albeit with reduced minutes, thanks to [name redacted]).
This season, I’d like to see about 13.5 ppg and 8.5 rpg in 30 minutes. I’d like to see him retain most of the gains he made last season in assist rate and turnover rate, and to improve his FG% on jump shots further from this past season (which increased from 20% to 35%). And I’d like to see more hustle and overall maturity.
If we see these types of gains this year – and this is a not totally unrealistic or overly optimistic projection – then I think his real breakout season will be next year – in 2009-2010.
Parental Advisory - Explicit Content
I would go for
14 pts 8 rebounds, 2 blocks, 1 steal
by JustAnotherFan on Jun 23, 2008 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions
great analysis
Give him a coaching staff who gives a crap about him, and managing his production and pt ought to be pretty easy. Even if you only give him 5-6 minute consistent runs, you can follow classic training methods of goal-setting and feedback. The moronic approach that’s been taken has wasted the developmental opportunity. He’s a RAW talent who has to LEARN how to play basketball. You don’t just rotate him in and say, “that sucked”, and sit him for a couple of games. That kind of feedback is pretty much tantamount to beating rather than correcting a child or a pet.
I’d offer up humbly that we (the fans) have next to no idea how he’ll turn out. Personally, I’d be content with him not accumulating a single stat (impossible) if he’d just learn to do the correct things off the ball, like I said, for a few minutes at a time. The stats will come naturally. Too much talent to think otherwise.
by California Al on Jun 24, 2008 2:05 AM CDT up reply actions
realisticly.....
i say 12-14 pts and 8-10 rbs 2 blocks….Foul trouble is a key component too it was alot of games when he was starting that he got two quick fouls and had to sit for the remainder of the first half i think this coachin staff should give him more on his leash so he can learn how to play with foul trouble
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
With the fouls, you gotta wonder, too,
whether the fact that he constantly got yanked contributed to being overagressive when he was out there in an effort to prove he deserved more PT.
If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.
agreed....
if he has more chances to play consistently maybe he wont be as agressive in a good way by not gettin all those cheap fouls
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
tyson would be nothing without chris paul....
rose will have a ton to do with how tyrus produces next year.
while i agree
it’s not like paul is preventing him from fouling. that’s still something that he must have improved a bit on his own.
that's true - i was referring to tyson's better offensive game...
and tyrus’ future offensive production.
tyson still was often foul prone…but i do believe tyrus will improve in that area with coaching and increased playing time.
part of it is definitely comfort
and if you are tense knowing you are going to be pulled, you’re probably more likely to foul, so i definitely think tyrus will improve.
but i was just referring to tyson’s foul rate – he plays more minutes down and averages less, so he must be doing something right. or at least better.
absolutely right
His coach told him what to do and why. It wasn’t rocket surgery. The emphasis is subtle. When a young player screws up, you bring him out for one of two reasons: either to correct his future behavior or to punish his past behavior. Coaching is 100% the former; the latter is just authoritarian prickiness. Even style doesn’t matter much, only the results. I’d guess that Scott did an outstanding job of showing TC how the corrections were in his and the team’s best interests. Numbnuts’ style seemed to be based on icy stares and a combination of silence and sarcasm without results.
by California Al on Jun 24, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Thorpe's weigh-in on this question
Chris (LA) : David, If Rose is indeed like Paul or Williams, does that mean he can turn Tyrus Thomas into Boozer and Joakim Noah into Chandler?SportsNation David Thorpe: (12:04 PM ET ) Not remotely.
Ha i love the blunt answer.
Um, Noah is Chandler
I love how players get no love when they play for the Bulls, then they go somewhere else and are heralded as All-Stars. I’d rather have Noah now because it didn’t take him 4 freaking seasons to realize his highest value is a defensive/rebounding presence.
Of course Chandler would improve, he went to a team with a All-Star PG and a head coach who actually cares enough to teach his players rather than just say “play harder.”
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 25, 2008 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Although I do love the notion that Tyrus could be Boozer
If there was one person you could compare Tyrus to, it would be…....Boozer?
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 25, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
i saw that...
he kinda flip-flopped in the same chat.
He didn't flip flop.
Tyrus is nothing like Boozer, that question was ridiculous. He’s also probably not going to average 20 points per game so Thorpe said no to that question. If you asked him if Tyrus could average 17 and 10, he would say yes..
formerly sbulls
They are not
asking Tyson to care about defense as much as the Bulls did when he was here. That is part of the reason why Tyson isn’t fouling as much and able to stay on the floor. That and Skiles’ piercing eyes on the back of his head all the time. >:[]
Everything I post is speculation. I have no insider information nor ideas deemed concrete enough by those who are self-elected to regulate post content.
Fouls should get better
First half of season Tyrus was playing too close to his guy, and getting run by- not blown by- just Tyrus not getting the spacing. Then he would rub the guy with his body as he went by, and get called for it. 2nd half somebody finally got through to him, and he started playing off a little more. This alone will help him stay on the floor more.
Add to that his propensity on the break to ram right into people, which with a smidge of coaching can be fixed, and he’s in much better shape. He doesn’t tend to foul at a high rate when he’s manning up underneath, and he’s athletic enough that he doesn’t just drape guys- so he’s going to be much better off this year.
I hope he has a few more moves this yr...
i hated the wild spin towards the basket and throw up a prayer shot or get charged for a offensive foul…..his defense can end up being great if he works on his footwork and timing on his blocks…him and D Rose will be great on the break!!!
CHICAGO MANE!!!!
Are you available?
VDN could use you :-)
by California Al on Jun 24, 2008 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
tyrus is going into his third year...
i don’t think they should trade tyrus. well, unless we get something really good in return. his first year he was alright and last year no one on the team was to good, but he still improved his shot a little. last season was a wash for everyone. we need to play more to his strenght and not his weakness. we need to run pick and rolls with him and throw the oop some times, like the bulls did with tyson before they went away from it. and he needs more time to play. he can’t improve if he doesn’t get into the game. tyrus is going to be a very good player and with a new coach, point guard and up tempo system he should start improving right away.
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