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Hollinger on Rose: "meh"

Blogabull_s_tiny by your friendly BullsBlogger on

Second part of Hollinger's new draft projections. (via Knickerblogger)

Solid first-rounders

D.J. Augustin, Texas (14.88); Derrick Rose, Memphis (14.69); Mario Chalmers, Kansas (14.03); Jerryd Bayless, Arizona (14.03).

Surprisingly, nobody rates as a slam-dunk lottery pick, not even Derrick Rose. In fact, Rose came in only second here, partly because he had such a slow start to his freshman season before picking up steam at the end.

Is this enough reason to draft Augustin ahead of Rose? No, because the margin between them is miniscule, and even if their career PERs end up the same, Rose will have far more defensive value given his superior size.

The bigger question is whether a team can justify taking Rose ahead of Michael Beasley, whose 19.19 is the best mark by anyone in the six years for which I have data. Yes, Beasley appears to be a space cadet and that's troubling, but what these numbers say to me is that the talent disparity is simply too big. That is, unless Beasley is such a train wreck off the court that he sabotages his own career, he's probably going to have much better results than Rose. In fact, you can make a strong case that Kevin Love should rank ahead of Rose on draft boards as well.

Here's another interesting fact: Rose rated slightly higher as a wing (15.34) than as a point guard. That seems crazy, but he has the size to play the 2 if he has to. Just humor me and store that in the recesses of your brain in case you need to access it in a few years.

(Emphasis mine.)

I do have a quibble with that statement that the 'talent' disparity is too big. Since he's not measuring talent, only production. (and primarily offensive production at that)

Rose has intangibles up to and including the ability to cure cancer, so...

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Not worried

Hollinger’s numbers have provided some odd player forecasts and similar age comparisons in the past so I’m taking this with a grain of salt, especially if Kevin Love scores as a better prospect than D Rose. I think Hollinger even mentioned that Rose was hit for a slow freshman start. All I know is that Hollinger’s formula scores DJ Augustin higher than Derrick Rose, yet when I saw them play head-to-head in the tournament with my own eyes, Rose obliterated DJ Augustin to the point that there was no question who the better PG and player was.

by messwiththebull on Jun 23, 2008 10:03 AM CDT   0 recs

LOL

I’ll never forget this…It was one of the earlier rounds of the tourney, DJ augustin was at the line in the last few seconds of the game shooting pretty important free throws, and he airballed the first one…talk about choking under pressure.

by Pax_4_Prez on Jun 23, 2008 10:07 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Bringing up missed free throws with a game on the line in the tournament

is probably not the response to a comparison between Augustin and Rose and choking under pressure.

If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.

by wjb1492 on Jun 23, 2008 10:20 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

stop harping on that one missed free throw

because if it wasn’t for rose, memphis would not of even had the lead to lose. KU was beating Memphis pretty easily throughout the game, and then what happened? oh yeah, rose decided if his teammates werent going to step up, he would have to do it himself. and man did he ever. he took over the game at the most pivotal time, single handedly almost bring his team the ship. no one on KU knew what to do. yes, he missed a crucial free throw at the end, but it just missed, and the worst play for memphis during that KU run at the end was the sharron collins steal and three pointer which essentially shaved 5 points of the memphis lead in 5 seconds.

I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE

by CONOR6 on Jun 23, 2008 10:34 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

sorry, i was rambling

rose was the only reason that game was as close as it was. and i say that deserves as much attention as the one missed free throw. rose was the best player in the tourney

I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE

by CONOR6 on Jun 23, 2008 10:38 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Relax. I responded directly to a comment that called Augustin a choker

for missing a free throw at the end of a tournament game. If that makes DJ a choker, then Rose is as well – not to mention CDR who missed multiple free throws.

Incidentally, Rose’s good stretch corresponded with KU dropping into a box and 1 defense to switch things up on CDR.

If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.

by wjb1492 on Jun 23, 2008 10:43 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

thats fine

i am sure he was making you sweat… i wasnt trying to come down on you, but people (not you) constanly bring up how rose missed that free throw, and at the same time, never discuss cdr missing two, and never, ever mention how rose not only brought them back, but gave memphis a nice lead, but of course, it wasn’t big enough

I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE

by CONOR6 on Jun 23, 2008 10:54 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

in my opinion

the point guard is responsible for holding onto a big lead as he’s the one who most often has to take free throws, has to make sure not to turn over the ball and has to make sure they get a decent shot after they’ve taken some time off the clock. If we’re going to laud Rose for his tournament play then he has to be held accountable for losing a 9 point lead in 3 minutes and I give him a large amount of the blame. Obviously it was a one time thing but if you’re supposed to be a superstar PG you shouldn’t let that happen, especially in the biggest game of your career.

by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 10:44 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Everything you just wrote....

....but apply it to Beasley losing in the second round of the tournament. What great superstart has achieved that? Oden took his team to the title game, right?

I hold Beasley responsible for KSU losing in the second round!! (See how stupid that sounds? Now apply that to your statements about Rose single-handedly losing a 9 point lead in the title game.)

Sure, Beasley took them to the tourney for the first time in however long. But Memphis has been in the Elite Eight quite often, even last season, and they couldn’t get over the hump and into the Final Four for 23 years until Derrick Rose took them there, and carried the team on his back until the last seconds of the Final. Sure, that’s all emotion and no logic, but why not play your game?

by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 23, 2008 11:57 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

logic

I told you my logic. Who is the most important player on the team when holding a big lead late?

by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 12:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The team leader is most important

That’s why I hold Beasley responsible for not being able to elevate his teammates to the next level.

Look at Beasley’s stats – he’ll get his, win or lose. His most dominating games, back to back 40 points, were in losses, right?

I don’t care if Beasley can put up 35 & 15 in Bulls’ losses. I want the Bulls to win. Rose is a winner. Beasley is a scorer.

by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 23, 2008 12:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

therefore

if Rose is the team leader shouldn’t he bear the brunt of the blame for a historic collapse like that?

by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 12:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ummmm....

....I’m an Illini fan. I don’t think of the Memphis loss as a ‘historic collapse’ any more than I think of the Illini’s in 2004 as an ‘historic collapse’. In other words, I disagree entirely with your categorization of Memphis National Runner-Up season as an ‘historic collapse’.

Making the Finals game and then losing to an equal opponent is not a ‘historic collapse’ despite what some people might believe. Memphis didn’t have a 20-point lead at home like the Lakers in the Finals.

If Memphis or Illinois, after going through the season with only one loss, had lost in the first or second round – THAT is an ‘historic collapse’. Kansas was an extremely talented ballclub that many picked to win the tourney.

I don’t blame Derrick Rose for Memphis losing. I blame Kansas for winning.

I’d love to talk with you about Beasley’s performance in the Tourney. How epic was that loss to Wisconsin? Do you really think that Wisconsin was the better team than KSU? If Beasley can’t beat Wisconsin, how can he beat Detroit?

It’s interesting how you want to pin the blame on Rose for a few minutes in the National Title game, yet you’ll forgive Beasley for not getting his teammates withing smelling distance of the Elite Eight.

Rose is a winner. Beasley is a scorer. I want the Bulls to win.

by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 23, 2008 12:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

well

name another team that lost a 9 point lead with 2 minutes to go in the NCAA championship game.

by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 12:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Name a team that Beasley has been on....

...that has played in a Championship game, let alone won one.

Rose has been in Championship games his entire life. If he stayed at Memphis, he would be in even more.

Please – name the Beasley’s TEAM successes. I’m waiting.

by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 23, 2008 12:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

team success

is a lame way to rate individuals.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 23, 2008 12:29 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think

that taking Kansas State to the second round is a pretty big team achievement. However, you’re just deflecting Rose criticism with Beasley criticism. My point here is that Rose is getting a pass for a pretty disastrous end to his college career.

by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 12:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Just like Kobe Bryant....

...had a pretty disastrous end to his season, right?

I also think the discussion of team successes is lame. Holding two minutes against Derrick Rose is ludicrous when you look at all of his successes.

Calling it Rose’s college ‘career’ is yet another lame attempt to portray Rose as insufficient based on biased language. It was a season, as much as a career. I could say that Beasley’s entire basketball ‘career’ has been a bust, being that he’s never been with a team more than a year and those teams didn’t win jack. Or did they?

You are welcome to mention Beasley’s team Championships, Finals appearances, state finals, city finals – all that. I know that Derrick Rose has been on successful teams his entire life. I’ve heard nothing at all of Beasley’s team successes. Is this because he’s had none, or because he never stayed with a team long enough to be able to claim any success? I await enlightenment.

by BullsFanInSeattle on Jun 23, 2008 12:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

maybe

its to Rose’s credit that he was in the championship game but I still think it says something that he wasn’t able to help his team maintain that lead. It’s true that I haven’t seen Beasley in big games at crunch time else than in the Big 12 tournament against Texas A&M where he missed a potential game winning runner with 9 seconds. However he scored the possession before to bring it with one. Also I’d say they’re not exactly analagous since they didn’t have a big lead.

Once again though you’re missing the point I’m making about Rose getting a pass for this because it might hurt the case of him being a proven leader and winner. Since that is the main reason most people want to draft him over Beasley, the more talented player, I think its a fair critique.

by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 12:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Beasley’s TEAM success: winning the 2008 SpaceJam

Tournament. His team was The TweetyBirds.

/Looney Tunes!
//just think of the marketing potential with Warner Bros!

by KentuckyBullsFan on Jun 23, 2008 10:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Bullsbeat Doug dude (.mp3 posted in another thread)

looked at every game, and said that except for one other KSU guy, the rest of the team was garbage

by KentuckyBullsFan on Jun 23, 2008 10:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You sound Foolish

Rosa had one good run in the tournament and now he is better than a player who was lauded to be the no. 1 pick since the college season began. I’ve been listening to all these arguements of why Rose should be no. 1 and the entire justification for him sounds foolish. He;s a leader. He puts the team before him. He has floor vision when his stats says otherwise.

The Bulls have tons of Players that put the team first. Leaders – that’s questionable, but Rose’s handlers is urging him to be more vocal. That sounds like Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng. We need a selfish (i.e. Jordan, Barkley, etc… more selfish than team player when the game is on the line) players that’s not afraid to put the ball in the hoop at crunch time. We have all these good character Paxson players and Rose will be one more to the bunch.

The Bulls can make it happen with a avg Kirk Hinrich (1st year into a big contract) who has been to a college Tourny and had success in a Bulls uniform since day one w/ Beasley – an option at forward this guy never had. If Rose fail, this will be the biggest con in NBA history. Chicago fans can’t be bias and want the home town kid. If Pax don’t have a decent trade on the table for Hinrich before drafting Rose. Rose will be already behind due to the log jam at guard with no time for Rose to properly develop.

I remember the Bulls swooped up in the Fizer and Crawford draft to grab Crawford because he had nice workouts. The Bull have to be smart about this pick because no pundits is call Rose a clear cut favorite bc of his skills. Its all because Rose is a Chicago product with possibly – loads of potential. The club has needed a PF longer than PG. Now the whole Chicago Fan and media base is flip-flopping.

by Soloistic on Jun 23, 2008 8:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So Wrong

I think the reasons people want Rose, or at least why I want Rose, are: he is going to be the most athletic and explosive point guard in the league, definitely the most athletic by next year. Much like in college he will draw double teams. The argument for Beasley has always been that he’ll make his teammates better by drawing double teams, but Rose won’t? In college and high school he was nearly unguardable one on one. Not only will he naturally help his teammates by being a facilitating point guard, but he’s also a playmaker. Yes, Beasley had phenomenal stats in scoring and rebounding, but when watching Rose play it was obvious he too could do whatever he wanted to on the court. Beasely was basically the only guy on his team who could do anything so it was automatic that he’d get the ball and create, while Rose didn’t have to because he had a couple of teammates who could also create. There is no doubt however by watching the games that Rose could and would dominate any guard on any team. So this argument for Beasley over Rose based on the scoring and rebounding stats alone is foolish. It was apparent during the college season last year both players were superior to whomever was guarding them. I think the reason to draft Rose ahead of Beasley is because Rose is the far superior athlete and playmaker at his position. He seems to be someone who can at least physically dominate his position. I’m not as sure that will happen with Beasley in the NBA, depending on what position he plays. Oh, and it’s stupid to think that most everyone on here wants Rose because he’s from Chicago. These are die hard Bulls fans and I believe most want the player that will make the Bulls better regardless of where he’s from.

by wfrv5 on Jun 23, 2008 9:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

most athletic?

Mike Conley actually had a better vertical, could bench more and had a quicker lane time. so did Nate Robinson, Jordan Farmar even Speedy Claxton. I’m not saying these guys are better but don’t just say it as gospel that he’ll be the most athletic point guard. He might not even be the most athletic point guard in this draft if Mayo can play there.

by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 9:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

anyone over 5'11"?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 23, 2008 9:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

well

Farmar is 6’2. Mayo is 6’4” And that was just people who were better in those scores. Dwayne Wade (although not really a point guard) only had a 35 inch vertical but his strength allows him to finish with the best of them. My point is its a little early to be crowning him the most athletic PG in the league.

by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 10:01 PM CDT to parent up   1 recs

that’s what surprised me the most about the finals game. He didn’t seem more athletic than most NBA guards, even backups.

(For example, in short bursts, Pargo looks ridiculously fast whenever its Pargo Time for a few minutes a game. He’s not a starting guard, but one skill – SPEED – is obvious for Pargo. )

by KentuckyBullsFan on Jun 23, 2008 10:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

well played

I always thought Farmar was shorter. (even in shoes)

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 23, 2008 10:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Not more athletic, but isn't he more explosive?

Not sure how that’s measured. Strength and speed i guess.

by swede2287 on Jun 24, 2008 1:27 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That'd be my guess.

Thonus talked about it on the last BullsBeat, and I’ve always thought the same thing. He included size/strength, leaping/running and body control, basically.

The University of Nebraska had a (back when they developed in the mid-90’s) formula for incorporating weight into athletic measurements. If there were someone ::ahem:: who weighed 247, but ran a 4.8 forty and had a 33” standing vertical, he could grade out as a “better athlete” than someone who ran a 4.6 and had a 35” vertical but weighed 170 pounds.

Weight does not equal strength, but in world-class athletes, it can be implied.

by tyger1147 on Jun 24, 2008 1:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I didn't say that. Missed free throws happen.

I was defending DJ Augustin, as I explained above.

Try not to take everything I say as some sideways criticism of Rose, OK? The only actually critical thing I’ve ever said about his game is wondering whether he can actually become the verbal leader people keep expecting. Beyond that, the worst thing I said about him is that I found his press conference boring.

If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.

by wjb1492 on Jun 23, 2008 10:47 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm glad you're telling me how to read your writing.

If you don’t want people to draw inferences, then quit implying things. Pretty simple.

by tyger1147 on Jun 23, 2008 11:41 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

OK then, by all means interpret my comments however you choose,

and when I provide clarification as to my intended meaning, feel free to be an ass. That’s so much more productive than trying to clear up any miscommunications or having a civil conversation.

If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.

by wjb1492 on Jun 23, 2008 12:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

from the trib

just updated:

“When they lost to Tennessee, their first loss of the season, every veteran guy was back in the locker room with their jersey over their face,” he said. “Derrick was the one who came out and spoke first. I have a lot of respect for him for doing that.

seems to me like he knows when to speak up.

by Jaina on Jun 23, 2008 10:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think he choked too

Prob the only reason to question Rose

by Belize on Jun 23, 2008 1:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Deron Williams also

obliterated Chris Paul if we’re scoring clashes in college.

I’ll take Chris Paul today, but I had Deron Williams higher on 2005 draft day.. A big part of the reason I take Chris Paul today is because of the players that have been cast around him. We have those players now. The one area that has to grow is the PF spot. West is better than Thomas, but let’s see the kid work with Rose in the strangely coveted Del Negro offense of defense first.

by NBA Observer on Jun 23, 2008 10:46 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Big difference

That was the sixth game of the year for Wake Forest and the fifth game of the year for the Illini, and it took place in Assembly Hall. Certainly not the same stage as a NCAA tournament match-up. And Paul had 10 pts, 6 assists, 1 turnover, and 5 rebounds on 4-11 shooting while Deron had 8 pts, 11 assists, 4 turnovers, and 5 rebounds on 4-10 shooting. That is hardly what I’d call an obliteration.

Contrast this with the Texas vs Memphis game. Augustin had 16 points on 4-18 shooting, 3 assists, 4 turnovers, and 2 rebounds. Rose had 21 points on 7-10 shooting, 9 assists, 2 turnovers, and 6 rebounds and all this still understands how he physically dominated Augustin, because he’s big and DJ is small. That’s an obliteraion.

by messwiththebull on Jun 23, 2008 12:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Get Real

Now Del Negro offense is going to cure everything. A guy who has never coached before. Del Negro only works if Pax brings in proven offensive coach, prior head coaches – as reports suggest -to help develop this kid. Del Negro alone Rose will behind the curve. Beasley will be fine because he has the instinct to score. Rose will be trying to develop that instinct.

Joshlos makes even better sense of this overhype of Rose
http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/joshlos/156670

by Soloistic on Jun 23, 2008 8:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

not really

“you may think Derrick Rose is all that and a bag of potato chips. But I don’t, nyah”.

I also forgot that I don’t mind seeing Hinrich replaced because I hate dopey white guys. I mean, I do hate dopey white guys, but I didn’t make the connection.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 23, 2008 9:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

memories

brings back memories of tyrus vs LMA. Of course it will turn out nothing like that and the rose is better than augustin should not even be brought into question.

by Sambossanova on Jun 23, 2008 6:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i feel "meh"

myself toward these results.

doesn’t PER most emphasize points and rebounds? so of course beasley is going to dominate rose. and big men tend to have better FG% as well. most of the top 25 career PERs are big men, including ALL of the top 10 other than jordan who is number 1.

and even he points out that rose started out slow. so i guess that goes along with your point that it only calculates based on production, not talent. of course, in the end, production is more important. but at this point in time, talent is equally important.

and also gotta wonder about any rating that puts gooden and sweetney in the top 5 all time ratings…

by Jaina on Jun 23, 2008 10:04 AM CDT   0 recs

er, not all time

but in the past 5 years…

by Jaina on Jun 23, 2008 10:05 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sweetney could play, man!

there’s no ‘eating himself out of the league’ factor.

I do think this is a neat tool when it comes to picking out outliers on either end.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 23, 2008 10:06 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL

while sweetney was serviceable (when he wasn’t stuffing his face with big macs), was he ever that close to reaching his so-called potential forecast by hollinger?

the thing is, i’m really a bad judge… i don’t really watch college.

by Jaina on Jun 23, 2008 10:10 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sweetney is a disgrace

another reason to hate d knicks

by Belize on Jun 23, 2008 1:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

agree with this

PER is an imperfect measure of a player’s relative value. It essentially only factors in offense and also, Rose’s box score stats, particularly assists, were deflated because of the DDM offense they played at Memphis (I thought this had been well established here already? guess not.) Also, for other analysis by the “numbers” HoopsAnalyst has an interesting look at the Point Guard class, and picks Rose as the best prospect in the draft. You can mess with the numbers to produce any result you like, really.

by fundamentallysound on Jun 23, 2008 10:16 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I should also mention,

that I’m fine either way if we take Beasley or Rose. As long as the right moves are made to surround them with players that fit their strengths. We really can’t lose. The way I look at it isn’t, if we get the lesser of these two talents it’ll be a disaster… I feel like we’ve already won because we should be worrying if Russell Westbrook will still be available at number 9 or some other crap and instead we’re worrying about Rose vs. Beasley. It’s exciting to be a Bulls fan again, and that is a great thing.

by fundamentallysound on Jun 23, 2008 10:25 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, barring an absolute disaster with the pick (eg Shaun Livingston, Jay Williams, etc),

either way the Bulls should end up with a much better player than had the lottery held true. And there’s a new coach to hand them over to, as well, who seems (hopefully this proves out in the season) much more into player development.

If nothing else, taking Rose will at least piss off Pat Riley.

by wjb1492 on Jun 23, 2008 10:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I like Hollingers' data

It’s highly useful. You just can poke holes in it when asking where a player will fit into an existing roster. The Sonics gave away their production to ensure Durant could get his. The Bulls aren’t going to do that for Beasley. We will move some of our after we draft Rose.

by NBA Observer on Jun 23, 2008 10:50 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah,

he misused the word ‘talent.’ PER doesn’t account for ‘talent’ it’s numbers produced. That has too much to do with other factors such as the team and situation a player is in. You’d like to think that talent supercedes situations, but we’ve seen cases that argue against that.
That being said, I’m still in favor of drafting Beasley, and was since the lottery.
Draft night: So close, yet so far away…

by kingj41 on Jun 23, 2008 10:12 AM CDT   0 recs

but

whats the point of talent if it doesn’t lead to production? I understand its hard to quibble with Rose’s numbers since Memphis came close to winning it all, but if you’re the best player on the floor, you should play like it all the time and Douglas-Roberts was easily Memphis’ MVP.

by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 10:38 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

there's also

calipari’s quote about rose knowing he didn’t have to put up gaudy numbers to give memphis a better chance to win, but that he could have.

that, and he’s had a comparable freshman season to chris paul – paul only really beats him bad in 3P%, which is something that can be improved.

the kid is only 19, and i really think his numbers will improve as he gets older. that said, i’m not going to be heartbroken if we draft beasley either – both are great players.

by Jaina on Jun 23, 2008 10:41 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think

that close or open mindedness has anything to do with it. It just has to do with valuing what a player actually does or what a player seems like he could do. Beasley actually put historic numbers in a big six conference. Rose facilitated for a great team but rarely took over games and people want to draft him based on seeing a few great games in the tournament and a few great dunks and imagining what he could be capable of. I’d rather go with the actual production.

by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 10:48 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm sorry.

I’m not much of a numbers man. I go by what I see. I watch a lot of college basketball. I like to evaluate players based on their interaction with the team, effort, flexibility w/ positions and impact. I do think Rose could have made more of an impact, but he didn’t have to.
I don’t have anything against Rose at all, but I just think that Beasley is, and will be the better of the two players. Now this is just my opinion based on watching the game and understanding some of the nuances of college basketball (foul trouble, travel, week btw games, conference vs. non-conference, vs. NBA talent, etc.).

by kingj41 on Jun 23, 2008 10:47 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Do you see NBA teams scheming to attack Beasley's lack of size?

When you watch him post on the low block he has to do so much work just to get the basketball. That Wisconsin game in the 2nd round of the tournament saw the Badgers throwing dual 7 footers at Beasley in the post and how with their size and boxing out they could take Beasley off the offensive glass.

The Badgers were hot from downtown, but they won the game in the end by a substantial margin.

Maybe Beasley’s better with a lead, but he’s not going to bring you back into games with his offense.

by NBA Observer on Jun 23, 2008 10:56 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

come on

you’re basing what he’ll be able to do in the NBA off one game against one of the best defensive teams in college that happened to have two seven footers and he still went for 26 and 13. He definitely will be able to bring a team back into games with his scoring because he can shoot the three and attack the rim and if he’ll have more room to operate in the NBA especially if he has Hinrich, Gordon and Deng around him to shoot open jumpers if they double.

by JSlakov on Jun 23, 2008 11:01 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No.

What do teams do to stop Kobe? What do they do to stop ‘Melo? What do they do to stop Lebron? What do they do to stop Wade? What do they do to stop Brand?
Beasley was, for the most part, K-State. You could put 2 and 3 guys around him. You simply can’t do that in the NBA. Yes you can double team a guy after he receives the ball, but the Def-3-sec rule allows a guy to at least receive the ball 1-on-1 down low or on the high post(which is where I think Beasley will be more of a threat). If teams want to guard him with a 3, put him on the low block. If teams want to match up with a 4, give it to him in the high post and let him dribble drive.

Beasley won’t be the sole focus of any team. The most comparable player I can think of to Beasley is Brand. But Beasley has better handles, and is much more athletic. I’m not relying on Kirk to be a superstar, but I think he’s better than what he showed last year. I’m not trading him for peanuts, (Udonis Haslem? Get real) and I think he will have a productive season.

All I’m saying is with #1 you take the best player. Period. Beasley is the better basketball player.

by kingj41 on Jun 23, 2008 11:17 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

BEST POST

ON THIS TOPIC YET!!!! KUDOS!!!!

On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, Bullshooter, and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light....

by piccolomair on Jun 23, 2008 2:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Brand had an MVP caliber season when he didn't have to be the team leader

Because Sam Cassell was brought in to fill that role. Kirk Hinrich doesn’t have the balls or veteran leadership of Cassell, and that’s why I tend to sour on Beasley. Who is going to take the burden of leadership off of Beasley as he matures the next few years on the Bulls?

by Ozzie Montana on Jun 23, 2008 2:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Beasley's best comparable is Carmelo Anthony.

By his own admission. Brand and Melo have a totally different game. Let Melo (Beasley) score 28 points a game; they won’t hurt you any other way.

by tyger1147 on Jun 23, 2008 2:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

well said

Beasley has always been the better player. Now fans and the media are throwing Hinrich under the bus after he saved us from the Crawford, Rose, and Curry years. Hinrich was the only bright spot and had been strong ever since then, but had one bad season. The Bulls will be fine with Beasley and Hinrich better than Rose and no one to throw the ball into. Same situation Hinrich has been in for the last 5 years.

by Soloistic on Jun 23, 2008 9:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hinrich saved us?

What revisionist history are you writing? The Bulls had FIVE lottery picks on that 2005 playoff team. He was the face of the team because he wasn’t a fatass like Curry or a chronic underachiever like Chandler, and he was the most tenured after those two.

I’ve never seen more love for a combo guard who can’t shoot that well, and has increasingly shied away from his best offensive asset (attacking the rim).

by Ozzie Montana on